Two things. I started GW games in the 90’s. When they pulled the plug on Warhammer Fantasy I got pretty salty. Quit playing and buying anything GW. Moved over to Warmahordes. Kill Team 21 got me back into GW again. (That, and the fact that Privateer just evaporated.) The lessons I learned from these experiences are... 1: GW is not your buddy, they’re just a company providing a product... and 2: You don’t need the company to keep playing the games you like. In retrospect, I should have just found the other people who were still playing WHF and kept on going.
Really enjoying this series of videos! I came here after seeing you chat with Guerrila Miniature games and liked your take on things. After watching a lot of your videos, I'd be really interested in seeing one about Corvus Belli (apologies if there already is one and I missed it). (My own bias infinity is my main game outside of 40k). Y'all allude to Corvus Belli a lot throughout the "rise and fall of x game" series, often as a counterpoint of what a company does well. I think a video focused on them with generally the tone of "here is how a mid-size company can carve out a niche and stay there without overextending or falling into obscurity" would be really interesting.
I incidentally started wargaming with Warmachine without really knowing much about Warhammer at all other than some of my gaming group hating it (this was early Mk2). I took a break in early Mk3, dabbled in Infinity, and came back. Painted up some Trolls - something I had wanted to play since I started - and got my Sea King finished to integrate with my old Minions when the rug got pulled at the beginning of Mk4. PP blew up my house then tried to Kickstarter me a new one. But the Sea King was such a fun painting experience that I realized Warmachine smothered what I liked most about hobbying - painting cool models. There was a severe disconnect between painting and playing because most of my gaming group just saw them as game pieces. So, disconnecting from Warmachine, I saw the models Games Workshop made and just dove whole hog into painting them, and it's been great. I'd be happy to play more frequently, but I really do just get to focus on the hobby aspect now, and it's been liberating!
I think you are 100% correct on community building - anything founded on hatred is indeed too volatile, and it's also way too much like the rest of life and who needs that? I want a group who want to have mildly goofy fun playing with army mans and (good naturedly) trash talk each other while we do it. Cheers!
The warmachine scene was born from the hate of games workshop at my nearest game store. It was very entertaining to watch a few come back into the warhammer scene, acting like nothing ever happened.
One thing that didn't get mentioned is board games with miniatures. If I were completely divorced from all things GW, there's all the CMON stuff I have sitting around, Kingdom Death, etc to scratch the hobby itch and provide a "deluxe" gaming experience.
One of my LGS quit carying GW products. Said he got tired of dealing with them and how they were treating him. He leaned heavy into card games Game of thrones and Star Wars games. Carries loads of board games. He stays slammed. So you dont need GW to survive.
To be fair all you need to say is CARD GAMES and you are immediately not making much of a comparison. No store needs miniature games at all if they have card games, it's the easiest path.
@@montroyalbynight8107Clearly you’ve never ran a shop. Card game players take up space and buy little. Also MTG is such a racket they make you do a ton on the regular to get new releases.
For me? Frostgrave, Five Parsecs from Home, Stargrave, Five Leagues from the Borderlands, Deth Wizards, Space Station Zero, Hametsu, Gaslands, multiple Ash Barker games, Silver Bayonet, One Page Rules and the wonders of 3D printing--if GW was gone I'd just smoothly grab any of dozens of mini agnostic games or Infinity, Malifaux, Marvel, Shatterpoint, Conquest, Warcrow, Moonstone, Kings of War, Deadzone, Carnevale, Freebooter's Fate, Ascendant Fate, Warmachine MK IV even...I don't think any of the games with their own minis lines would wind up as big as GW is, but I think there'd be growth from GW diaspora. And then there's communities like Mordheim, or the Blood Bowl fans who kept it alive, or oldhammer players. The GW product firehose is a good way to get new people into the hobby, but the hobby is so so so much more multifaceted, inventive, and full of such creative people that there are always going to be new ways to go with it, even into creating your very own ruleset to share with the rest of the hobby!
19:44 one thing people often don’t include in the cost of printed minis is their time time you spend setting up the printer, cleaning it after post processing your minis, removing the supports all adds up and it’s all time you’re not spending somewhere else Yes, the time the models are printing in the printer. You don’t have to do much other than maybe checking on it every once in a while, but there is sun time costs when printing, and while it might be low, it adds to the cost.
Glad you brought up the point about non-gw games constantly requiring a store owner to refill the air. I see that all the time at my store as well. While I have about a dozen employees who can promote games it seems like the moment we aren’t doing it and/or a community leader isn’t then people simply “forget” they enjoy playing games. You basically have to constantly remind people to show up and play or they wander off into the woods or somethings lol
In the modern environment is it possible that retail stores attract a more narrow type of customer that needs this treatment? This is not a problem is clubs playing the same games.
@@montroyalbynight8107 yeah but clubs don’t make their rent off selling products. Just like my garage has more variety too, that doesn’t mean anyone is buying the games in meaningful amounts.
It always fascinates me that people always forget the "other people/community to play with" part of the games. All you really need is a single other person and then you can play any game that you want at any time. Before 2020, I used to try just about every single boardgame that struck my fancy because I had a buddy to always play against constantly who liked to learn new games. Now, things have changed; I can really only play Age of Sigmar and maybe the new kill team. Because it's easy enough to find games for those and there are enough players of those two to where I can curate my games because I'm not just dealing with the 1 person in the area that wants to play in the area.
Talking about dealing with Rule changes....The great thing about playing at my local shop is we play "The Rules as Originally written" So we really don't mess with the Tournament rules changes...it makes for more civilized games. we can actually use our data cards and we don't have to relearn the game every month.
my earliest memories of warmachine were of those guys who would come up to you in the game club while playing 40k. they would talk at you about how evil gw was and how terrible warhammer is and then they would say that warmachine is better and we should all play it because its not games workshop. Not surprisingly I didn't play it
I kinda got that too when I was getting into 40k. Not sure why you'd think someone looking at Tau would be interested in a steampunk fantasy setting with a wildly different aesthetic and no real analogue to Tau at all. Closest thing they'd ever get to that was Retribution of Scyrah, and ironically the Warmachine community hated them just as much as the 40k community hates Tau. Seems like no matter what game I look at I'm always attracted to the factions everyone hates.
Had a good laugh at the comment about the natural progression towards model railroads. I got burnt out on GW last year and did just that. Now I'm refreshed and looking at One Page Rules to finally run some games with the models I worked hard on without worrying about whatever tangent GW is on with rules and editions.
I stopped playing 40K and most GW games back around 5/6 ed. Since then I have helped build communities for Warmachine, Infinity, Bushido and other games. Its just hard to grow the community because you can walk into just about any game store and get a game of 40K, AoS, or maybe some of the other GW games... but not these small, niche games. Even when Warmachine was in its heyday and looked to be the game that could finally eclipse GW games there were stores and areas that never heard of it. And yes it does take energy to build and sustain that small community of non-GW games. I would not recommend store owners do it... but find and support a local champion of the game. I am lucky to have a store owner who does that for the games I try to support and grow.
I play a lot of games, but I don't get why no one mentions Battletech. Do they think it's just a flash in the pan? Is it too different? What's going on?
I'm big into alpha strike - but compared to the numbers of 40k/Aos/others, Battletech is small and mostly from what I've seen, stay at home players. They also don't really need to buy much - once you have the rules and a couple of lances, you're really good for a loooong time. At least, my thoughts on this.
It's wildly different and doesn't offer a good launching point. Alpha Strike is extremely trimmed down, and Classic is incredibly complex, particularly if you use any expansion material.
@@jackrogers5712 I mean, both starter boxes were highlighted by Guerilla Miniature Games as some of the best starter boxes you could get. It's definitely smaller, but the user base is extremely loyal, often going back to the 80s, and not built on spite.
As far as the barrier to entry battletech is the easiest to paint, alpha strike is fast to play (lance on lance can be less than 30 minutes), and the cost is close to $5 a mech.
Hatred toward GW is not the worst thing for them, its indifference. Their products are nice, but the value is not there for the price. Some people like Ferrari's too.
Lol Contempt is such a strong word. Tbh like all things 90% of the comments are well thought out and well written and I enjoy reading them. The other 10% make you want to walk naked into a forest and have mother earth take you into sweet oblivion 🤣
The ONLY reason i play 40k is ease of finding games. I enjoy seeing warmachine starting to come back and am working on helping MCP get going locally too
If this hypothetical actually happened I’d take it as a breath of fresh air. I feel the pressure to get projects done fast to keep up with my GW loving buddies. I always found Frostgrave and Infinity more my style but my local group sadly isn’t into them as much. Love the videos, fellas!
I have often been fustrated by GW but never hated them, worked for them for 5 years. However, I have come to having a business relationship with them, if they produce something I value and want then I will buy it. That has been increasingly rare and decreasing though as I don't value the experiences I get from their hames much. There is no loyalty there though, and my view on them is the hobby is probably at its lowest edge. Think only point I'd disagree is on value, as you can put a monetary cost to a mini or rulebook etc but that is not value. Particulary not value personal to me. Increasingly because I get less from their games, playing none regularly, that is diminshed. I also Increasingly find as well crafted as their minis are they aren't as fun to paint as others and they are exciting me as much. Add in the 3 year obsolescence in books the value is getting lower than the price tag on a lot of products
I already made the jump 3 years ago into Marvel Crisis Protocol. I haven't looked back at GW on the hobby or gaming side. But, I still read the fiction and play some of the video games. So I kind of still have a toe in the pool as I do enjoy the IP very much still.
You touch on it every now and again in passing, but I'd love you to have a deeper conversation on the topic of "how can I stay in the hobby if I have very little time and live in a remote place with not a lot of people around?. Imagine somebody having a family and a job - so little to no free time at all - and living in a small town without a hobby store or club around. How do you even find other people? How do you keep the connection(s) alive once you managed to find those precious few people sharing your interest(s)? And how can you make the most out of the little time you have? I believe this would be of interest to quite a few folks out there.
I dont hate 40k, i hate GW. I love warhammer, and have 9 editions to play and enjoy before this current one. I can play HH2 without giving a cent to GW just as much as i can play old editions
Warmachine is so good! The best answer is Warmachine is next., I know the answer is different for everyone, but I'd likely lean into Rumbleslam, MCP, some of Black Site Studios games like Lunar and Night Thirst, and board games.
I’m into Warmaster (10mm fantasy set in the Old World) and Legions Imperialis to scratch my 40k itch. I also play historicals. But I understand that historicals aren’t for everyone.
Trying Warcrow and I like it so far. I like that it can be played on a 3x3 table so I can play at home. And if I eventually get tired of it, I can use the minis for my dnd games.
7TV and Pulp Alley - both are great little "sanbox" style games, allowing you to create your own crew, gangs, teams etc. Figure agnostic, and instead of having hundreds of figures in 1 army you an have that same figure count giving you access to 8 or so "Armies". The games can be used for any genre!
I think there is a lot to be said for not being an exclusively GW gamer. Its helps you take the company a lot less seriously and just roll with the punches as you can step on and off the conveyer belt at your choosing. Also, if more players did spread their investment, other companies would get shelf presence and community.
I took a break from 40K and WHFB around 2004, came back 15 years later when 8th ed 40K dropped, played that all through to 10th ed which wasnt for me. I was about to leave the hobby again but then Old World dropped. Now I'm doing old world, some Mordheim and I'm painting Quars from Zombiesmith (hoping to one day find someone to play that with).
How many people do you think enjoy parts of the hobby equally - hobby, playing at a store, playing narrative, tournament/competitive. Are there many players you come across who dip their toes into all of the categories fairly equally?
Obviously there are a lot of ways to start this thought experiment/essay. I got into 40k late 3rd? Maybe early 4th, and took a break at the end of 5th. I wanted a "40k Lite" and we got 6th instead. I was aware of the interesting reboot for 8th, purchased a couple of the Index books to see how my 5th edition army/models faired but still pretty much stayed out the game. Bought a couple of codexes near the end of the 9th, but didn't really feel the hunger and attraction until 10th was announced. My purchasing patterns and mental attitude is that 10th will be my "last edition" If GW went out of business tomorrow I figure I'll play 10th, Combat Patrol and Spearhead indefinitely. But if I had to "swear off" GW games, I'd have plenty to do with Tanks (precursor to World of Tanks TT), I have several Zombicides (Plague, Horde, Western) and would use the Western models for Shoot & Skedaddle. I have Star Wars Imperial Assault I could dust off. I've been investing in Battletech Alpha Strike for the last couple of years, since Catalyst got really organized with their sculpts and product offerings. I never cared for Flames of War, but very interested in the FoW-lite Clash of Steel, as I hope to invest in the four current starters. I'd be willing to get back into M:TG, after taking a break (two years?) from sleeving up several dozen proxy EDH decks; for a while there I was designing decks faster than I could put them together. As is my catch phrase: Too many games, too little time.
The people mad about GW who spend exhaustive amounts of time complaining about the setting, company etc and then land on something like OPR and using the same models are actually just an extension of GW marketing. You are still supporting them. That's fine but don't pretend otherwise, you are just a different layer of their community marketing.
I feel like it isn't all that hard, the hobby has more options than ever before that all have carved out solid communities. Between Bolt Action, Battletech, Kings of War, Malifaux, Star Wars Legion & Shatterpoint, and many others... GW isn't the only option anymore, just the most visible.
I am actually looking at starting the Other Side. Depends on how the new miniatures look. Not many miniature army games have a similar look. Most of the value to me will be how they will look in the display case.
Hmm, but I love Games Workshop. Without GW how much else of the hobby would exist eg. contrast paints has led to an explosion in paints which is great news for all of us. I have no problem with them ‘having low consumer engagement’, just look at us as a community and how negative we can get about everything. Oh and my Orlock are in Stargrave, my Blackpowder ACW Union army is painted with contrast paints, my Beastmen are currently in Saga Magic (awaiting The Old World Beastmen release) and my Krieg also has a One Page Rules list.
I used to think that I just liked the painting aspect of the hobby, not the playing part. But then I played a miniature game with an actually good set of rules and it turns out I just don't like playing warhammer 40k.
I had sort of this eye opening moment when we started short campaign where we played 4 games going from 500 to 2k points and the first opponent I had brought his Mawtribes army and his battletome and the first thing our helper (we had one for the first game, because we both didnt play for a while) said: the book is outdated you can't use it. And then i thought if I knew any other game that rotates things like they do (that isn't a TCG) and I really couldn't come up with anything. Thats sort of when I questioned myself whether I want to do this or be sort of an ambassador of others games. I am lucky because we have a pretty diverse gaming club with people who play all sorts of games. I have a theory if people started playing a different game system as their introduction to tabletop wargaming and then someone would tell them that for gw games your rules change all the time and that you need to pay for them and that they don't come with the miniatures. Then people wouldn't think about switching. But being introduced to it being your first tabletop people get used to the "abuse". That being said GW makes great miniatures and I will continue to buy some stuff every now and then and use them in other systems ^^ I hope they change their ways for the better in some aspects. Feels like they are going 1 step forward and 1 step back all the time. Anyway good video^^
I've played GW products for about 30 years now. Like, pretty much all their games to some degree. But now I'm just down to Horus Heresy. The reason I exited the other games is because, honestly, it just got too much. Like drinking from a firehose, and by the time I bought the books, the army and painted, it was the next edition or the power creep got so bad it just stopped being fun for me. That's when I did realize, I'm into painting and hobbying far more than playing. I did get into MCP, OPR and 3d printing. But still try and buy all my paints, tools, MCP and HH from my FLGS. Interestingly though, Horus Heresy doesn't have a huge audience, which is fine by me as I really just like building and painting them more than anything. There is a strong OPR group though and that's really been my jam for gaming. Anyone who 3d prints though...make sure you support your local FLGS anyways. Find a model range you're into, buy paints from them, etc.
Took a long break from GW when they made changes to their retail stores that caused a stir with my gaming group and we did a real tour of all many indie games Infinity stuck the longest, played several of the frostrgrave engine games, Relicblade, even Saga, was fun bouncing around and trying other stuff, and most besides infinity were pretty cheap to get into even if they didn't last. Slowly got pulled back in by GW and while there's ups and downs playing and collecting their stuff they're managing to hold my interest.
@@crisismethodactor The big ones were removing the free paint rack and not allowing food in the store which while both understandable with hindsight upset people enough to not feel welcome and to move on. The current manager at my GW is actually great but that certainly wasn't always the case.
I buy the models to paint. I realized decades ago using them in their games was setting myself up for heartbreak. I picked up the FEC box set because the rules looked cool and I had the FEC halves to two carrion empires boxes. I have no intention of playing. I feel really bad for the people who bought in to play and got rotated immediately. Based upon my reading in the groups Im part of for painting ideas, the army was already bad in 4.0, and this update made it even worse. Good thing the models look cool. I've got entrails on my head.
There’s too many options to list out there, as long as you find some people to play it with you. Frostgrave stands out, as does the cooperative Rangers of Shadows Deep. Battletech works as one likely to find a game at the store. Deadzone is fun but you really need the people to come with you because you won’t find it in the store. But, I’m not really mad at GW. I just might migrate when I’m too tired to keep up and am older than I am
I would go to whatever game system that I could get 2-3 games a month without much effort. As long as there's enough faction variety it won't be hard to find something to enjoy even if the setting as a whole isn't all that appealing. As for hobby, I already like doing those scale 75 figures and historical vehicles. So more of the same there. If said game system has cool models that inspire me in a hobby sense, then that's just extra.
Nice video, but I was surprised by ”the quality of historical miniatures are pretty rough, so that’s why I stick to GW”. Meanwhile, guys like Perry and Victrix and Piano Wargames are putting out historical miniatures that are IMHO making GW miniatures look bad. ;)
Yea it was an odd thing to say. The Perry brothers do loads of historicals and they were the GW sculptors back when GW stuff was better than it is now!
@@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 From your video it seems like your experience of historicals is mostly from Flames of War and Bolt Action, and those are quite ok ranges but definitely in the "mid" range when it comes to historicals, sculpting wise. So it makes sense.
@@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 The three outlined there, Perry, Victrix and Piano Wargames are absolutely top-drawer. V&V miniatures are excellent. Wargames Atlantic are only getting better. Rubicon Models are brilliant, particularly their new Vietnam War range. Bloody Miniatures, Reconquer Miniatures (3d STLs) and Offensive Miniatures are all really good well. Moving down the scales, some of the ranges Pendraken produce in 10mm are lovely, likewise Baccus at 6mm. But small-scale isn't everyone's jam. The nice thing about historicals is that because copyright doesn't really exist for it, someone somewhere will do a version of a unit you like. And if you're playing a big-battle game rather than a skirmish-level one, model quality becomes less important as it's all about the unit, not the individual.
@@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 Perry are the obvious ones and are just better sculpts than most warhammer stuff, looking into their background that's not hard to understand... Victrix is more like current GW sculpts... Busy 3d sculpts. For superior smaller scale sculpts AB minis is kind though they have some new stuff like Eureka and Tundraworks nipping at their heels. Does any of this kind of discussion really matter though? If you are in a retail environment for any setting you are restricted in what's stockable-- those companies are generally not going to offer the highest quality at the best price because distribution and marketing takes a cut. You may get both quality and retail availability at a high price... see infinity. But for historicals you are more likely to get low end of quality in exchange for retail availability. Warlord is the best example of that. Battlefront always has better quality but struggles with distribution. Neither are good quality products compared to what is available outside of retail.
Well, thats easy. I 3d print and continue playing warhammer 8th ed as I have literally every publication for it and chug right along. Oh and I play solo and have my own wargaming room . So I don't need to worry about a store.
Mantic Games tried to build KoW community from GW hate when Battle was ended harshly. It didn't go that well for them in the long term. I do agree that going with the flow with your player group is great to enjoy the moment, but I feel like the release pace is going so fast it's really becoming tough to keep it with miniature games (I'm a slow painter, and the time I got everything painted, a new hot thing has attracted attention...)
Ironically, the answer is just get right with GW in your own mind. Cause if you've ever broken of a long term relationship, you know that person just doesn't stop existing. And it's tiring being angry
I chose marvel and consquest. I went to a local tounrment(this 40k group is very competitive as is my team) and i hated it, i kinda wanted to cry at the end with how little fun i was actually having. So i left, i play on TTS, and go to MCP tournaments in person 1-2 times a month. my 40k group has still tried to get me back, sometimes shit talking the games i play. mostly saying they will die, so why play. Its hard, i live in a place where the stores do not allow open play, and when they do, its 5$. i have worked to try to build communities, only for Old world to supplant Conquest, and Killteam supplant MCP for people GW has their hands in so many pies, its a health hazard
If a community can't invest 5 dollars in public space per session does it really have a future either way? Take the money you save not paying a retail cut on what can often be better products and get superior space at a board game cafe or privately.
So how much of people's gaming is what their friends are playing? I feel like many modern games have good strategic aspects that make them fun to play. My main consideration is what my friends are playing (or what I think I can get my friends to try). I'd be happy to play any of the many great games that are out on this market as long as I have people to play with and whether I enjoy the community of players.
I started GW back in '91 with rogue trader and left with 6th edition when GW made it apparent the lore would be sacrificed for model sales and never came back in a proper sense. (Starter or one off models ever now and again) I got back in with CB infinity when a coworker introduced me to a league he was in a our flgs. Fell in love with the lore and models. I have so many other games and systems I play now I could never invest whole hog into one now. The buffet is too sweet as a consumer For a retailer I feel your pain as you have to have a mercenary mindset most time or take a career ending risk on smaller companies with unproven franchises to back. When I buy from the store I support the store not the manufacturer, (although somewhat indirectly) the only one who can topple GW is GW by increasing their unfriendly customer policy and actions and hopefully some of the lower/mid tier companies can start exploiting the cracks in the wall that is GW.
8:30 I find this really disappointing in practice. We do have so many fantastic options for other types of games, but the fact that those games don’t get played in stores means people don’t feel an impetus to get into the game unless they can talk their buddies into starting a whole new game with them. There are sizeable and thriving online for presences for these alternative games, but I feel they are almost looked down on by communities at game stores. I also think the game stores looks much less exciting now they you don’t have the kitchen sink of options of different games. You just see an endless sea of warhammer, Star Wars and marvel, with maybe a small oasis of something like Infinity.
It’s been well over a decade since I loved GW. No one should love a company as they don’t care about you. You can still love the game or people you play it with. There is a difference between the company and your hobby.
Great hobby, but the cost of living crisis we are all in now, really makes you think is this box of plastic a more sensible choice then purchasing good quality foods. You’d be broke trying to keep up with everything. Still love everything else about it though.
just don't play at GW, and GW doesn't even allow you too anymore these days. And if a 3rd party store wont allow recast or proxy, I wouldn't wanna play there anyways
Hating a choice a company makes is fine, hating the company seems odd if t’s a product you enjoy. I’ve stopped buying new 40k items because of the price point, but GW still makes a great product. I pick up some of the bigger box items since I can still get models around $5-6 per miniature when I get them from Amazon or another reseller that sells under GW store prices.
When a company makes a change that ruins the hobby for you, it's not that far afield to hate them. If you own thousands of points of miniatures and GW changes rules that ruin how you play your army, it really hurts. GW recently took Deathwatch out back and shot them. Now I'm out 8,000 points of miniatures. I enjoy the game mostly to attend tournaments with friends, so killing my entire collection for tournament play not only makes my games far less enjoyable, it makes it difficult to go away for a weekend with my friends. My army was a huge labor of love, one of my most prized possessions, and something I've poured a lot into emotionally. I have pages of background lore, played multiple RPGs using my personal Watch Fortress and characters I've made up, and spent multiple thousands of dollars. The models are basically useful for display and to pull out to play RPGs with once every few years. That's a huge blow.
@@jackrogers5712 I can see your perspective. I’ve thousands of miniatures and I use them for all sorts of games. I guess I value the hobby over the game, but that’s just me.
That's a low bar to be fair. Infinity benefits from being an early adopter of "living game" design concepts that GW is still way behind on. Also thank crossfire :)
In the grand scheme of things, I rather not support GW at all. Even a small shop would be good for them to support something other than GW. If you want me to support a small shop, it must support something other than GW. A new shop opened up in my town and they have GW and Magic and other card games. I asked if they would bring in other games or custom order for me games other than GW and the answer was no. I asked if they would have paints other than GW paints and they said no. I understand that GW and Magic are the money makers, but I will not be spending any money in that shop which is 15min from my home. I also understand that GW videos make more money, but I am not at all interested. I instead travel 45min north from where I live where the shop has a ton of paints and will happily order for me Infinity or some other game items for me. I have done demo games for the store for free of Bolt Action, Infinity, Star Wars Legion, Malifaux and BattleTech. Anything I did a demo for I purchased from the shop. We now have a weekly league of Legion, Infinity, and starting this October BattleTech. There are still games of GW games that are played but barely more than one or two tables of the 12 tables the shop has to play on.
I'm glad you found a place where you can get the things you like and feel 'seen'. I agree I think it is important for businesses to try and cast a wide net, but I can also acknowledge why it's hard at the same time to divert from the big 3 (gw, dnd, magic)
As someone that has removed GW from my hobby. Here are a few of the realities. understanding what you want from the hobby... aka... are you a gamer with a painting problem or are you a painter with a gaming problem. As a hobbyists first in 2024 has the 3d printing out, while they shop around for a new game and lore to occupy their non painting time. Are you a solo gamer? Aka you need the lgs to find an opponent. Well this is a double edge sword, you can research what else is active locally. You can make humanconnectionsover demo games. But you are relying on the whims of the community. Jumping to a game with an active local community is your best step forward. Make those connections so the next change is smoother. Have a group of friends or a Club? Great, a small dedicated group can easily build a new game. I will be perfectly blunt, it would been a lot more difficult if I didn't have a group of friends in agreement that dumping GW was our collective way forward. Being flexible... saving hobby dollars doesn't necessarily mean saving hobby dollars. I play 4 to 6 different games in a week and I have another half dozen games in my display cabinet. Understand that games have a life cycle. their day in the sun will come and go. then they will become that really fun thing we once played. So, understand that games you love may not have opponents around in five years is notba gad thing. Get a secondor even third army, that way you can get a game in when you can find a willing opponent down the road. Now battletech is the weird one that game died off then got resurrected. I have gotten in more games of battletech in the first 9 months of 2024 than I did from 2004 to 2024, with an average of 2 games a week. The vast majority of those games are with people that have been playing Battletech for less than 5 years. So old dead games might see a redemption arc? Godtear need a redemption arc, oh this one hurts me... Games I would recommend... in September of 2024... Mcp, shatterpoint, battletech, Games that are great, but local community dependant Malifaux, conquest, infinity, moonstone, gaslands, kings of war, deadzone, asoiaf, Gw games that are worthwhile, in my opinion Spacehulk, Mordhiem, bloodbowl, original gorka morka and original necromunda. Also if you. An find the generic warcry data and then just proxy away have at it, it's a good system. Also battlefleet Gothic is great, but you are gonna want a 3d printer for the tokens etc. Hmm mostly specialist games... If you have a community running OPR, it's a fun beer and pretzels throw back and a great way to get game time in with your existing 40k stuff if you are not convinced you want to exit the gw eco system. And yah it is simple, but that frees you up to make the tactical decision. My inner big mek makes me play my fully looted non gw dreadwaaagh, what can I say I have a lootn addiction and at least this way I can play with my looted contraptions. Hilariously my mom loves moonstone, watching her at 70+, wreck her grandkids on the table top is a great laugh. Best part is she hates war games. The, nice thing about multiple game systems on the shelf... is if you don't like something, you can just go play a different game until the issue gets addressed. It also keeps things from getting stale. I want to sit here and tell you the grass is perfectly green and everything is better without GW... that would be a lie. It's different and it takes effort to keep the communities alive and thriving. As much as I don't like GW's business practices. The players and active community make the GW ecosystem far better than the IP holder deserve.
@@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905don't worry I will return to my normal sh t posting internet troll status as soon as the hyde formula wears off... but sometimes an actual answer is worth offering. Simply because I don't like GW's business practices doesn't erase the good times had over the twenty five years that GW was part of my hobby. It introduced me to five lifelong friends. It was the catalyst that created the gaming club I am part of. It gave me a place to develop and refine skills. Even today It keeps my commission painting subsidizing my hobby. I still love the orks and nids in 40k. The nightgoblins, trolls and squigs of whfb... now aos... the demons were one of my all time favorite painting projects the final product and the ridiculous vibrancy in the grim dark setting always made me smile. Like let's not be all happy... I have a mountain of salt when it comes to GW...the end times and aos follow up... need i say more? I can... the not so grim and not dark at all future... I miss the satire of days gone bye, the absolute derp factor of squatty marines and twerking orks. Those god forsaken turkey warriors of the 2nd ed nids, i love how awful they are, even by the standard of the late 80s, early 90s. But they had charm, burn it with fire charm, but charm.
I got upset with GW as a company many times, but at the end of the day thats not why I detached. I would love buying books if they lasted 5-6 years, but the game is changing so fast, that many of them are outdated by release. Then the game is written for autistic lawyers, takes forever and just isnt as fun, when compared to OPR is night and day, when fun is concerned. I don't buy the models because they are just too expensive, I just cannot afford them, and none of my friends can either. The prices of everything has gone up so much, buying plastic that is more expensive than silver is just not an option anymore. At the end of the day, they are a company providing a product, and if someone is unhappy, they can find alternatives or other things to do. But thats just my perspective, GW is on record profits every year, margin is better than apple, they don't have debts and are building warehouses - cash. Their financials are so good, it's hard to believe, so that means people overall are loving their products
Also, I probably wouldn't have picked Infinity as your example lol. They are priced to the moon nowadays. If you looked at Bolt Action, two $50 USD boxes of infantry and the $50 USD rulebook and you have a complete army. For Battletech you just need a Lance pack for $25.99 USD and the $40 USD and you are also done. The more boutique games are JUST as expensive, if not more so than GW nowadays.
@@montroyalbynight8107 Small increase in price is a bit of an under statement lol. The JSA Reinforcements pack is $89 USD MSRP for 6 minis versus $59 USD for 30 minis. The Afrika Korps and new Battle of the Bulge plastics are leagues above their early efforts. Are they as detailed covered as Infinity minis? No, because they are based in reality and what people actually wore in WWII. Not a knock on Infinity at all, their minis are great if you like that aesthetic. Just seemed a bit dishonest in the video where the comparison was saying that GW alternatives are just as expensive as GW, so you might as well just stay on the GW plantation.
I agree on the hate thing turning it volatile - I know gamers who specifically play other games like Infinity for the sole reason of them hating Games Workshop over prices, or rule changes or lore revisions or whatever - Never do they say "Oh, I love infinity because...." it is always "I play infinity because I hate Games Workshop"... It is no different that Trump haters only supporting Harris because they hate Trump, or Trump supporters only voting for him because they hate how expensive things are now and blame Biden, etc. I never hear "I love Trump because..." or "I love Harris because..."
A guy I know who got burned out on GW after they cancelled Warhammer Historical would try and get other people into games for ages and he was constantly giving out about GW while trying to get then on-board. It took a long time for him to get that you need to be positive about the thing you like. BattleTech has been my primary game for like 30 years and i've been running it at cons for most of that time and I only ever talk about why I like it, or to compare scales - Like I'll say BattleTech is Kill Team while Alpha Strike is 40K in broad terms of model count and complexity on-table.
Warhammer is game of rules. The strategy is remembering the rules and find lawyerly ways of getting gotchas on your opponent. I took the summer off because I couldn’t get the PN pack and when I got back I felt like I was starting at zero. I still enjoy it, but the game is rarely what people expect or wish it was.
This happened with me already in 2004. I left GW behind (until Underworlds/Kill Team brought me back) because of the disappointing direction the company had begun taking. But as a gamer first and foremost, I pivoted to boardgames of all sorts, but focused on historical wargames. I left miniatures behind. If i stuck with minis, I’d play Dropfleet/Dropzone Commander.
@@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 You're welcome. As an aside, I'd direct Kill Team players to GMT's Combat Commander WWII tactical game. The mechanics are excellent.
Came into the hobby in 97'. Late Second Edition, confused by all the super-killy characters that could devour multiple squads. Then Third Edition, then things started making sense! Still tough killy-characters, but not squad devourers. So, got a small collection of models after awhile. Left table top when Fifth Edition came in. Some highs, but alot of lows in follow on editions. Now, Games Workshop virtue signals! Really, really, really dumb move! These Woke activists are bad news, and alot of long time fans who supported the franchise but had left table top are annoyed! Why should a hobby involving assembling and painting models need DEI POLITICAL oversight? Only way to hurt GW is in the profit margin! To force GW to return to a non-political orientated stance. Oh, NO FEMSTODES allowed! The Custodes are a Brotherhood, not a sisterhood!
![F.HERO Ft. JSPKK x ลำไย ไหทองคำ x M-PEE - ไม่สนิทบิดหมด (Thai Riders Anthem) [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kPJZ0UihBfk/mqdefault.jpg)
Two things. I started GW games in the 90’s. When they pulled the plug on Warhammer Fantasy I got pretty salty. Quit playing and buying anything GW. Moved over to Warmahordes. Kill Team 21 got me back into GW again. (That, and the fact that Privateer just evaporated.) The lessons I learned from these experiences are... 1: GW is not your buddy, they’re just a company providing a product... and 2: You don’t need the company to keep playing the games you like. In retrospect, I should have just found the other people who were still playing WHF and kept on going.
Really enjoying this series of videos! I came here after seeing you chat with Guerrila Miniature games and liked your take on things. After watching a lot of your videos, I'd be really interested in seeing one about Corvus Belli (apologies if there already is one and I missed it). (My own bias infinity is my main game outside of 40k). Y'all allude to Corvus Belli a lot throughout the "rise and fall of x game" series, often as a counterpoint of what a company does well. I think a video focused on them with generally the tone of "here is how a mid-size company can carve out a niche and stay there without overextending or falling into obscurity" would be really interesting.
I might note that our mostly historical miniature wargames club includes several members who converted to historical miniatures _after_ trying trains…
I incidentally started wargaming with Warmachine without really knowing much about Warhammer at all other than some of my gaming group hating it (this was early Mk2). I took a break in early Mk3, dabbled in Infinity, and came back. Painted up some Trolls - something I had wanted to play since I started - and got my Sea King finished to integrate with my old Minions when the rug got pulled at the beginning of Mk4. PP blew up my house then tried to Kickstarter me a new one.
But the Sea King was such a fun painting experience that I realized Warmachine smothered what I liked most about hobbying - painting cool models. There was a severe disconnect between painting and playing because most of my gaming group just saw them as game pieces. So, disconnecting from Warmachine, I saw the models Games Workshop made and just dove whole hog into painting them, and it's been great. I'd be happy to play more frequently, but I really do just get to focus on the hobby aspect now, and it's been liberating!
I think you are 100% correct on community building - anything founded on hatred is indeed too volatile, and it's also way too much like the rest of life and who needs that? I want a group who want to have mildly goofy fun playing with army mans and (good naturedly) trash talk each other while we do it. Cheers!
The warmachine scene was born from the hate of games workshop at my nearest game store.
It was very entertaining to watch a few come back into the warhammer scene, acting like nothing ever happened.
One thing that didn't get mentioned is board games with miniatures. If I were completely divorced from all things GW, there's all the CMON stuff I have sitting around, Kingdom Death, etc to scratch the hobby itch and provide a "deluxe" gaming experience.
One of my LGS quit carying GW products. Said he got tired of dealing with them and how they were treating him. He leaned heavy into card games Game of thrones and Star Wars games. Carries loads of board games. He stays slammed. So you dont need GW to survive.
To be fair all you need to say is CARD GAMES and you are immediately not making much of a comparison. No store needs miniature games at all if they have card games, it's the easiest path.
@@montroyalbynight8107Clearly you’ve never ran a shop. Card game players take up space and buy little. Also MTG is such a racket they make you do a ton on the regular to get new releases.
For me? Frostgrave, Five Parsecs from Home, Stargrave, Five Leagues from the Borderlands, Deth Wizards, Space Station Zero, Hametsu, Gaslands, multiple Ash Barker games, Silver Bayonet, One Page Rules and the wonders of 3D printing--if GW was gone I'd just smoothly grab any of dozens of mini agnostic games or Infinity, Malifaux, Marvel, Shatterpoint, Conquest, Warcrow, Moonstone, Kings of War, Deadzone, Carnevale, Freebooter's Fate, Ascendant Fate, Warmachine MK IV even...I don't think any of the games with their own minis lines would wind up as big as GW is, but I think there'd be growth from GW diaspora. And then there's communities like Mordheim, or the Blood Bowl fans who kept it alive, or oldhammer players.
The GW product firehose is a good way to get new people into the hobby, but the hobby is so so so much more multifaceted, inventive, and full of such creative people that there are always going to be new ways to go with it, even into creating your very own ruleset to share with the rest of the hobby!
My list of games overlaps yours heavily, plus things like Oathmark, Xenos Rampant, Pulp Alley, and a lot of historicals.
19:44 one thing people often don’t include in the cost of printed minis is their time time you spend setting up the printer, cleaning it after post processing your minis, removing the supports all adds up and it’s all time you’re not spending somewhere else
Yes, the time the models are printing in the printer. You don’t have to do much other than maybe checking on it every once in a while, but there is sun time costs when printing, and while it might be low, it adds to the cost.
Glad you brought up the point about non-gw games constantly requiring a store owner to refill the air. I see that all the time at my store as well.
While I have about a dozen employees who can promote games it seems like the moment we aren’t doing it and/or a community leader isn’t then people simply “forget” they enjoy playing games. You basically have to constantly remind people to show up and play or they wander off into the woods or somethings lol
Lol so true
In the modern environment is it possible that retail stores attract a more narrow type of customer that needs this treatment? This is not a problem is clubs playing the same games.
@@montroyalbynight8107 yeah but clubs don’t make their rent off selling products. Just like my garage has more variety too, that doesn’t mean anyone is buying the games in meaningful amounts.
It always fascinates me that people always forget the "other people/community to play with" part of the games. All you really need is a single other person and then you can play any game that you want at any time. Before 2020, I used to try just about every single boardgame that struck my fancy because I had a buddy to always play against constantly who liked to learn new games. Now, things have changed; I can really only play Age of Sigmar and maybe the new kill team. Because it's easy enough to find games for those and there are enough players of those two to where I can curate my games because I'm not just dealing with the 1 person in the area that wants to play in the area.
Talking about dealing with Rule changes....The great thing about playing at my local shop is we play "The Rules as Originally written" So we really don't mess with the Tournament rules changes...it makes for more civilized games. we can actually use our data cards and we don't have to relearn the game every month.
my earliest memories of warmachine were of those guys who would come up to you in the game club while playing 40k. they would talk at you about how evil gw was and how terrible warhammer is and then they would say that warmachine is better and we should all play it because its not games workshop. Not surprisingly I didn't play it
I kinda got that too when I was getting into 40k. Not sure why you'd think someone looking at Tau would be interested in a steampunk fantasy setting with a wildly different aesthetic and no real analogue to Tau at all.
Closest thing they'd ever get to that was Retribution of Scyrah, and ironically the Warmachine community hated them just as much as the 40k community hates Tau. Seems like no matter what game I look at I'm always attracted to the factions everyone hates.
Had a good laugh at the comment about the natural progression towards model railroads. I got burnt out on GW last year and did just that. Now I'm refreshed and looking at One Page Rules to finally run some games with the models I worked hard on without worrying about whatever tangent GW is on with rules and editions.
Fantastic!
I stopped playing 40K and most GW games back around 5/6 ed. Since then I have helped build communities for Warmachine, Infinity, Bushido and other games. Its just hard to grow the community because you can walk into just about any game store and get a game of 40K, AoS, or maybe some of the other GW games... but not these small, niche games. Even when Warmachine was in its heyday and looked to be the game that could finally eclipse GW games there were stores and areas that never heard of it. And yes it does take energy to build and sustain that small community of non-GW games. I would not recommend store owners do it... but find and support a local champion of the game. I am lucky to have a store owner who does that for the games I try to support and grow.
I play a lot of games, but I don't get why no one mentions Battletech. Do they think it's just a flash in the pan? Is it too different? What's going on?
I'm big into alpha strike - but compared to the numbers of 40k/Aos/others, Battletech is small and mostly from what I've seen, stay at home players. They also don't really need to buy much - once you have the rules and a couple of lances, you're really good for a loooong time.
At least, my thoughts on this.
It's wildly different and doesn't offer a good launching point. Alpha Strike is extremely trimmed down, and Classic is incredibly complex, particularly if you use any expansion material.
@@jackrogers5712 I mean, both starter boxes were highlighted by Guerilla Miniature Games as some of the best starter boxes you could get. It's definitely smaller, but the user base is extremely loyal, often going back to the 80s, and not built on spite.
Flash, very similar market plan to warhammer fantasy old world but better executed and more accessible. Ultimately relies on nostalgia.
As far as the barrier to entry battletech is the easiest to paint, alpha strike is fast to play (lance on lance can be less than 30 minutes), and the cost is close to $5 a mech.
Hatred toward GW is not the worst thing for them, its indifference. Their products are nice, but the value is not there for the price. Some people like Ferrari's too.
I love the contempt you have for TH-cam commenters tbh. We are scum, it’s true.
Lol
Contempt is such a strong word.
Tbh like all things 90% of the comments are well thought out and well written and I enjoy reading them.
The other 10% make you want to walk naked into a forest and have mother earth take you into sweet oblivion 🤣
I have to say, I find your conversations so down to earth and low-key funny. Keep it up!
Appreciate you 🙏
The ONLY reason i play 40k is ease of finding games.
I enjoy seeing warmachine starting to come back and am working on helping MCP get going locally too
From a wargamer, who doesnt play a GW game, this really seems to be the only thing 40k has going for it.
If this hypothetical actually happened I’d take it as a breath of fresh air. I feel the pressure to get projects done fast to keep up with my GW loving buddies. I always found Frostgrave and Infinity more my style but my local group sadly isn’t into them as much. Love the videos, fellas!
I have often been fustrated by GW but never hated them, worked for them for 5 years. However, I have come to having a business relationship with them, if they produce something I value and want then I will buy it. That has been increasingly rare and decreasing though as I don't value the experiences I get from their hames much.
There is no loyalty there though, and my view on them is the hobby is probably at its lowest edge.
Think only point I'd disagree is on value, as you can put a monetary cost to a mini or rulebook etc but that is not value. Particulary not value personal to me. Increasingly because I get less from their games, playing none regularly, that is diminshed. I also Increasingly find as well crafted as their minis are they aren't as fun to paint as others and they are exciting me as much. Add in the 3 year obsolescence in books the value is getting lower than the price tag on a lot of products
There no reason anyone should have loyalty to a large corporation.
That Jake you speak of got me into the hobby too! However, I was in london which is where he went just after being in the mississauga store.
Small world!
I already made the jump 3 years ago into Marvel Crisis Protocol. I haven't looked back at GW on the hobby or gaming side. But, I still read the fiction and play some of the video games. So I kind of still have a toe in the pool as I do enjoy the IP very much still.
You touch on it every now and again in passing, but I'd love you to have a deeper conversation on the topic of "how can I stay in the hobby if I have very little time and live in a remote place with not a lot of people around?.
Imagine somebody having a family and a job - so little to no free time at all - and living in a small town without a hobby store or club around. How do you even find other people? How do you keep the connection(s) alive once you managed to find those precious few people sharing your interest(s)? And how can you make the most out of the little time you have?
I believe this would be of interest to quite a few folks out there.
it is hard, most of my interactions with my hobby friends are over discord for hobby time and the in person gaming time is very sporadic
I dont hate 40k, i hate GW. I love warhammer, and have 9 editions to play and enjoy before this current one. I can play HH2 without giving a cent to GW just as much as i can play old editions
Currently gearing up for OPR both skirmish and bigger games. Also looking forward to Halo in November.
They described me. Started in '07. Someday I will learn the rules and play a game.
Warmachine is so good! The best answer is Warmachine is next., I know the answer is different for everyone, but I'd likely lean into Rumbleslam, MCP, some of Black Site Studios games like Lunar and Night Thirst, and board games.
What is war machine and why do you hate it?
I’m into Warmaster (10mm fantasy set in the Old World) and Legions Imperialis to scratch my 40k itch. I also play historicals. But I understand that historicals aren’t for everyone.
Trying Warcrow and I like it so far. I like that it can be played on a 3x3 table so I can play at home. And if I eventually get tired of it, I can use the minis for my dnd games.
7TV and Pulp Alley - both are great little "sanbox" style games, allowing you to create your own crew, gangs, teams etc. Figure agnostic, and instead of having hundreds of figures in 1 army you an have that same figure count giving you access to 8 or so "Armies". The games can be used for any genre!
I think there is a lot to be said for not being an exclusively GW gamer. Its helps you take the company a lot less seriously and just roll with the punches as you can step on and off the conveyer belt at your choosing. Also, if more players did spread their investment, other companies would get shelf presence and community.
I took a break from 40K and WHFB around 2004, came back 15 years later when 8th ed 40K dropped, played that all through to 10th ed which wasnt for me. I was about to leave the hobby again but then Old World dropped. Now I'm doing old world, some Mordheim and I'm painting Quars from Zombiesmith (hoping to one day find someone to play that with).
How many people do you think enjoy parts of the hobby equally - hobby, playing at a store, playing narrative, tournament/competitive. Are there many players you come across who dip their toes into all of the categories fairly equally?
Obviously there are a lot of ways to start this thought experiment/essay. I got into 40k late 3rd? Maybe early 4th, and took a break at the end of 5th. I wanted a "40k Lite" and we got 6th instead. I was aware of the interesting reboot for 8th, purchased a couple of the Index books to see how my 5th edition army/models faired but still pretty much stayed out the game. Bought a couple of codexes near the end of the 9th, but didn't really feel the hunger and attraction until 10th was announced. My purchasing patterns and mental attitude is that 10th will be my "last edition"
If GW went out of business tomorrow I figure I'll play 10th, Combat Patrol and Spearhead indefinitely. But if I had to "swear off" GW games, I'd have plenty to do with Tanks (precursor to World of Tanks TT), I have several Zombicides (Plague, Horde, Western) and would use the Western models for Shoot & Skedaddle. I have Star Wars Imperial Assault I could dust off. I've been investing in Battletech Alpha Strike for the last couple of years, since Catalyst got really organized with their sculpts and product offerings. I never cared for Flames of War, but very interested in the FoW-lite Clash of Steel, as I hope to invest in the four current starters. I'd be willing to get back into M:TG, after taking a break (two years?) from sleeving up several dozen proxy EDH decks; for a while there I was designing decks faster than I could put them together. As is my catch phrase: Too many games, too little time.
Haha well said. For many of us there are so many flavors to enjoy.
The people mad about GW who spend exhaustive amounts of time complaining about the setting, company etc and then land on something like OPR and using the same models are actually just an extension of GW marketing. You are still supporting them. That's fine but don't pretend otherwise, you are just a different layer of their community marketing.
@@montroyalbynight8107 how is my using Mantic Models and Vallejo paint to build an OPR army somehow supporting GW?
I feel like it isn't all that hard, the hobby has more options than ever before that all have carved out solid communities.
Between Bolt Action, Battletech, Kings of War, Malifaux, Star Wars Legion & Shatterpoint, and many others... GW isn't the only option anymore, just the most visible.
True!
@@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 Great video and discussion by the way.
I am actually looking at starting the Other Side. Depends on how the new miniatures look. Not many miniature army games have a similar look. Most of the value to me will be how they will look in the display case.
A great reason to collect any range!
I’m stocking up on Old World so that when they decide to kill it I will still have enough minis to build and paint until it comes back again 😂😂😂
Haha well done
What's next? Seethe about it online while continuing to buy GW products!
Love your content and your insight!
We all cope in different ways...
Hmm, but I love Games Workshop.
Without GW how much else of the hobby would exist eg. contrast paints has led to an explosion in paints which is great news for all of us. I have no problem with them ‘having low consumer engagement’, just look at us as a community and how negative we can get about everything.
Oh and my Orlock are in Stargrave, my Blackpowder ACW Union army is painted with contrast paints, my Beastmen are currently in Saga Magic (awaiting The Old World Beastmen release) and my Krieg also has a One Page Rules list.
Saga age of magic is so fun
I used to think that I just liked the painting aspect of the hobby, not the playing part. But then I played a miniature game with an actually good set of rules and it turns out I just don't like playing warhammer 40k.
I've not played a GW game in years, occasionally buy some of their minis, I enjoy the lore, but there's sooooo many other fantastic games out there.
Came from Warmachine last year to try the tail end of AOS3, which i enjoyed. Currently, not too happy with AOS4, so I'm trying some ASOIAF...
I had sort of this eye opening moment when we started short campaign where we played 4 games going from 500 to 2k points and the first opponent I had brought his Mawtribes army and his battletome and the first thing our helper (we had one for the first game, because we both didnt play for a while) said: the book is outdated you can't use it.
And then i thought if I knew any other game that rotates things like they do (that isn't a TCG) and I really couldn't come up with anything. Thats sort of when I questioned myself whether I want to do this or be sort of an ambassador of others games.
I am lucky because we have a pretty diverse gaming club with people who play all sorts of games.
I have a theory if people started playing a different game system as their introduction to tabletop wargaming and then someone would tell them that for gw games your rules change all the time and that you need to pay for them and that they don't come with the miniatures. Then people wouldn't think about switching.
But being introduced to it being your first tabletop people get used to the "abuse".
That being said GW makes great miniatures and I will continue to buy some stuff every now and then and use them in other systems ^^
I hope they change their ways for the better in some aspects. Feels like they are going 1 step forward and 1 step back all the time.
Anyway good video^^
Thanks for sharing your experiences
I've played GW products for about 30 years now. Like, pretty much all their games to some degree. But now I'm just down to Horus Heresy. The reason I exited the other games is because, honestly, it just got too much. Like drinking from a firehose, and by the time I bought the books, the army and painted, it was the next edition or the power creep got so bad it just stopped being fun for me. That's when I did realize, I'm into painting and hobbying far more than playing. I did get into MCP, OPR and 3d printing. But still try and buy all my paints, tools, MCP and HH from my FLGS. Interestingly though, Horus Heresy doesn't have a huge audience, which is fine by me as I really just like building and painting them more than anything. There is a strong OPR group though and that's really been my jam for gaming. Anyone who 3d prints though...make sure you support your local FLGS anyways. Find a model range you're into, buy paints from them, etc.
You rock!
As I grow older I realize the amount of time these things take to do and the money required. So many other things can fill those slots.
I mean, yea? There are limitless ways to spend your time. Whatever brings you joy 😊
I've already seen members of my gaming club sell out of GW and go all Mantic.
Took a long break from GW when they made changes to their retail stores that caused a stir with my gaming group and we did a real tour of all many indie games Infinity stuck the longest, played several of the frostrgrave engine games, Relicblade, even Saga, was fun bouncing around and trying other stuff, and most besides infinity were pretty cheap to get into even if they didn't last. Slowly got pulled back in by GW and while there's ups and downs playing and collecting their stuff they're managing to hold my interest.
What changes were made? I’m very curious in learning about the downward slide of GW stores into “Warhammer” stores staffed by insane salesmen.
@@crisismethodactor The big ones were removing the free paint rack and not allowing food in the store which while both understandable with hindsight upset people enough to not feel welcome and to move on. The current manager at my GW is actually great but that certainly wasn't always the case.
I buy the models to paint. I realized decades ago using them in their games was setting myself up for heartbreak. I picked up the FEC box set because the rules looked cool and I had the FEC halves to two carrion empires boxes. I have no intention of playing. I feel really bad for the people who bought in to play and got rotated immediately. Based upon my reading in the groups Im part of for painting ideas, the army was already bad in 4.0, and this update made it even worse. Good thing the models look cool. I've got entrails on my head.
There’s too many options to list out there, as long as you find some people to play it with you.
Frostgrave stands out, as does the cooperative Rangers of Shadows Deep.
Battletech works as one likely to find a game at the store.
Deadzone is fun but you really need the people to come with you because you won’t find it in the store.
But, I’m not really mad at GW. I just might migrate when I’m too tired to keep up and am older than I am
I would go to whatever game system that I could get 2-3 games a month without much effort. As long as there's enough faction variety it won't be hard to find something to enjoy even if the setting as a whole isn't all that appealing.
As for hobby, I already like doing those scale 75 figures and historical vehicles. So more of the same there. If said game system has cool models that inspire me in a hobby sense, then that's just extra.
Nice video, but I was surprised by ”the quality of historical miniatures are pretty rough, so that’s why I stick to GW”. Meanwhile, guys like Perry and Victrix and Piano Wargames are putting out historical miniatures that are IMHO making GW miniatures look bad. ;)
I'd love to see some suggestions.
Yea it was an odd thing to say. The Perry brothers do loads of historicals and they were the GW sculptors back when GW stuff was better than it is now!
@@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 From your video it seems like your experience of historicals is mostly from Flames of War and Bolt Action, and those are quite ok ranges but definitely in the "mid" range when it comes to historicals, sculpting wise. So it makes sense.
@@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 The three outlined there, Perry, Victrix and Piano Wargames are absolutely top-drawer. V&V miniatures are excellent. Wargames Atlantic are only getting better. Rubicon Models are brilliant, particularly their new Vietnam War range. Bloody Miniatures, Reconquer Miniatures (3d STLs) and Offensive Miniatures are all really good well.
Moving down the scales, some of the ranges Pendraken produce in 10mm are lovely, likewise Baccus at 6mm. But small-scale isn't everyone's jam.
The nice thing about historicals is that because copyright doesn't really exist for it, someone somewhere will do a version of a unit you like. And if you're playing a big-battle game rather than a skirmish-level one, model quality becomes less important as it's all about the unit, not the individual.
@@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 Perry are the obvious ones and are just better sculpts than most warhammer stuff, looking into their background that's not hard to understand...
Victrix is more like current GW sculpts... Busy 3d sculpts.
For superior smaller scale sculpts AB minis is kind though they have some new stuff like Eureka and Tundraworks nipping at their heels.
Does any of this kind of discussion really matter though? If you are in a retail environment for any setting you are restricted in what's stockable-- those companies are generally not going to offer the highest quality at the best price because distribution and marketing takes a cut. You may get both quality and retail availability at a high price... see infinity. But for historicals you are more likely to get low end of quality in exchange for retail availability. Warlord is the best example of that. Battlefront always has better quality but struggles with distribution. Neither are good quality products compared to what is available outside of retail.
Well, thats easy. I 3d print and continue playing warhammer 8th ed as I have literally every publication for it and chug right along. Oh and I play solo and have my own wargaming room . So I don't need to worry about a store.
Mantic Games tried to build KoW community from GW hate when Battle was ended harshly. It didn't go that well for them in the long term.
I do agree that going with the flow with your player group is great to enjoy the moment, but I feel like the release pace is going so fast it's really becoming tough to keep it with miniature games (I'm a slow painter, and the time I got everything painted, a new hot thing has attracted attention...)
Ironically, the answer is just get right with GW in your own mind. Cause if you've ever broken of a long term relationship, you know that person just doesn't stop existing. And it's tiring being angry
Sage advice!
I chose marvel and consquest. I went to a local tounrment(this 40k group is very competitive as is my team) and i hated it, i kinda wanted to cry at the end with how little fun i was actually having.
So i left, i play on TTS, and go to MCP tournaments in person 1-2 times a month. my 40k group has still tried to get me back, sometimes shit talking the games i play. mostly saying they will die, so why play.
Its hard, i live in a place where the stores do not allow open play, and when they do, its 5$. i have worked to try to build communities, only for Old world to supplant Conquest, and Killteam supplant MCP for people
GW has their hands in so many pies, its a health hazard
If a community can't invest 5 dollars in public space per session does it really have a future either way?
Take the money you save not paying a retail cut on what can often be better products and get superior space at a board game cafe or privately.
So how much of people's gaming is what their friends are playing? I feel like many modern games have good strategic aspects that make them fun to play. My main consideration is what my friends are playing (or what I think I can get my friends to try). I'd be happy to play any of the many great games that are out on this market as long as I have people to play with and whether I enjoy the community of players.
A lot is what your mates play, to be sure.
OPR !
I started GW back in '91 with rogue trader and left with 6th edition when GW made it apparent the lore would be sacrificed for model sales and never came back in a proper sense. (Starter or one off models ever now and again) I got back in with CB infinity when a coworker introduced me to a league he was in a our flgs. Fell in love with the lore and models. I have so many other games and systems I play now I could never invest whole hog into one now. The buffet is too sweet as a consumer
For a retailer I feel your pain as you have to have a mercenary mindset most time or take a career ending risk on smaller companies with unproven franchises to back. When I buy from the store I support the store not the manufacturer, (although somewhat indirectly) the only one who can topple GW is GW by increasing their unfriendly customer policy and actions and hopefully some of the lower/mid tier companies can start exploiting the cracks in the wall that is GW.
They made it clear at 6th edition?! They changed lore way earlier than that just to sell minis.
@@kudosbudo yeah but I was fed up by then. I realized the relationship was toxic for me.
The only gw stuff im interest in is their boardgames. Some are terrible, some are great but they all have this space crusade nostalgia that i enjoy.
I know where you guys live!...I mean how big can Canada be?...don't worry I'm American chances are I can't find Canada on a map.
Lol
8:30 I find this really disappointing in practice. We do have so many fantastic options for other types of games, but the fact that those games don’t get played in stores means people don’t feel an impetus to get into the game unless they can talk their buddies into starting a whole new game with them. There are sizeable and thriving online for presences for these alternative games, but I feel they are almost looked down on by communities at game stores.
I also think the game stores looks much less exciting now they you don’t have the kitchen sink of options of different games. You just see an endless sea of warhammer, Star Wars and marvel, with maybe a small oasis of something like Infinity.
Selling a starter kit without the rules for your army is just Evil.
I think we may have slightly different definitions of evil but I take your point that you'd rather they didn't do that lol
I've said this for years...
GW is the reason I don't play GW games!
It’s been well over a decade since I loved GW. No one should love a company as they don’t care about you. You can still love the game or people you play it with. There is a difference between the company and your hobby.
11:11 that is the path to Nirvana
I don't like cults or cultish behaviour. It's gross
4:21 I feel attacked and seen.
Train time ! lol :) love it
Great hobby, but the cost of living crisis we are all in now, really makes you think is this box of plastic a more sensible choice then purchasing good quality foods. You’d be broke trying to keep up with everything. Still love everything else about it though.
Absolutely true
Recasts / 3D Printer Goooo BRrrrrrrr. #QuitTheCope
Not a great solution for people in the category of 'I want to play at a store'.
just don't play at GW, and GW doesn't even allow you too anymore these days. And if a 3rd party store wont allow recast or proxy, I wouldn't wanna play there anyways
CONQUEST
Hating a choice a company makes is fine, hating the company seems odd if t’s a product you enjoy. I’ve stopped buying new 40k items because of the price point, but GW still makes a great product. I pick up some of the bigger box items since I can still get models around $5-6 per miniature when I get them from Amazon or another reseller that sells under GW store prices.
When a company makes a change that ruins the hobby for you, it's not that far afield to hate them. If you own thousands of points of miniatures and GW changes rules that ruin how you play your army, it really hurts. GW recently took Deathwatch out back and shot them. Now I'm out 8,000 points of miniatures. I enjoy the game mostly to attend tournaments with friends, so killing my entire collection for tournament play not only makes my games far less enjoyable, it makes it difficult to go away for a weekend with my friends.
My army was a huge labor of love, one of my most prized possessions, and something I've poured a lot into emotionally. I have pages of background lore, played multiple RPGs using my personal Watch Fortress and characters I've made up, and spent multiple thousands of dollars. The models are basically useful for display and to pull out to play RPGs with once every few years. That's a huge blow.
@@jackrogers5712 I can see your perspective. I’ve thousands of miniatures and I use them for all sorts of games. I guess I value the hobby over the game, but that’s just me.
I also give a strong recommendation for Bolt action. 3rd edition is coming out as we speak, and it isn't invalidating people's collections.
Sounds like it slightly is due to sloppy release schedules. In general that is true of historicals but they managed to mess it up.
@montroyalbynight8107 Who cares? It's out now.
You can go play MTG and Commander... 😅
/sarcasm for the algorithm
You’re such a noob, you said rules agnostic. You meant model agnostic.
Keep up the great videos. I really enjoy them
Infinity and Bushido, significantly better designed games
That's a low bar to be fair. Infinity benefits from being an early adopter of "living game" design concepts that GW is still way behind on. Also thank crossfire :)
Haven‘t played a GW game in 10 years. No hate for GW or their games, I‘m just older and my tastes have changed.
Respect
In the grand scheme of things, I rather not support GW at all. Even a small shop would be good for them to support something other than GW. If you want me to support a small shop, it must support something other than GW. A new shop opened up in my town and they have GW and Magic and other card games. I asked if they would bring in other games or custom order for me games other than GW and the answer was no. I asked if they would have paints other than GW paints and they said no. I understand that GW and Magic are the money makers, but I will not be spending any money in that shop which is 15min from my home. I also understand that GW videos make more money, but I am not at all interested.
I instead travel 45min north from where I live where the shop has a ton of paints and will happily order for me Infinity or some other game items for me. I have done demo games for the store for free of Bolt Action, Infinity, Star Wars Legion, Malifaux and BattleTech. Anything I did a demo for I purchased from the shop. We now have a weekly league of Legion, Infinity, and starting this October BattleTech. There are still games of GW games that are played but barely more than one or two tables of the 12 tables the shop has to play on.
I'm glad you found a place where you can get the things you like and feel 'seen'.
I agree I think it is important for businesses to try and cast a wide net, but I can also acknowledge why it's hard at the same time to divert from the big 3 (gw, dnd, magic)
I don’t understand the question 😂
As someone that has removed GW from my hobby. Here are a few of the realities.
understanding what you want from the hobby... aka... are you a gamer with a painting problem or are you a painter with a gaming problem.
As a hobbyists first in 2024 has the 3d printing out, while they shop around for a new game and lore to occupy their non painting time.
Are you a solo gamer? Aka you need the lgs to find an opponent. Well this is a double edge sword, you can research what else is active locally. You can make humanconnectionsover demo games. But you are relying on the whims of the community. Jumping to a game with an active local community is your best step forward. Make those connections so the next change is smoother.
Have a group of friends or a Club? Great, a small dedicated group can easily build a new game. I will be perfectly blunt, it would been a lot more difficult if I didn't have a group of friends in agreement that dumping GW was our collective way forward.
Being flexible... saving hobby dollars doesn't necessarily mean saving hobby dollars.
I play 4 to 6 different games in a week and I have another half dozen games in my display cabinet.
Understand that games have a life cycle. their day in the sun will come and go. then they will become that really fun thing we once played. So, understand that games you love may not have opponents around in five years is notba gad thing. Get a secondor even third army, that way you can get a game in when you can find a willing opponent down the road. Now battletech is the weird one that game died off then got resurrected. I have gotten in more games of battletech in the first 9 months of 2024 than I did from 2004 to 2024, with an average of 2 games a week. The vast majority of those games are with people that have been playing Battletech for less than 5 years. So old dead games might see a redemption arc? Godtear need a redemption arc, oh this one hurts me...
Games I would recommend... in September of 2024...
Mcp, shatterpoint, battletech,
Games that are great, but local community dependant
Malifaux, conquest, infinity, moonstone, gaslands, kings of war, deadzone, asoiaf,
Gw games that are worthwhile, in my opinion
Spacehulk, Mordhiem, bloodbowl, original gorka morka and original necromunda. Also if you. An find the generic warcry data and then just proxy away have at it, it's a good system. Also battlefleet Gothic is great, but you are gonna want a 3d printer for the tokens etc. Hmm mostly specialist games...
If you have a community running OPR, it's a fun beer and pretzels throw back and a great way to get game time in with your existing 40k stuff if you are not convinced you want to exit the gw eco system. And yah it is simple, but that frees you up to make the tactical decision.
My inner big mek makes me play my fully looted non gw dreadwaaagh, what can I say I have a lootn addiction and at least this way I can play with my looted contraptions.
Hilariously my mom loves moonstone, watching her at 70+, wreck her grandkids on the table top is a great laugh. Best part is she hates war games.
The, nice thing about multiple game systems on the shelf... is if you don't like something, you can just go play a different game until the issue gets addressed. It also keeps things from getting stale.
I want to sit here and tell you the grass is perfectly green and everything is better without GW... that would be a lie. It's different and it takes effort to keep the communities alive and thriving.
As much as I don't like GW's business practices. The players and active community make the GW ecosystem far better than the IP holder deserve.
Wow what an incredibly well thought out and articulated comment. Are you sure you belong on the internet??? 😀
@@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905don't worry I will return to my normal sh t posting internet troll status as soon as the hyde formula wears off... but sometimes an actual answer is worth offering.
Simply because I don't like GW's business practices doesn't erase the good times had over the twenty five years that GW was part of my hobby.
It introduced me to five lifelong friends.
It was the catalyst that created the gaming club I am part of.
It gave me a place to develop and refine skills.
Even today It keeps my commission painting subsidizing my hobby.
I still love the orks and nids in 40k. The nightgoblins, trolls and squigs of whfb... now aos... the demons were one of my all time favorite painting projects the final product and the ridiculous vibrancy in the grim dark setting always made me smile.
Like let's not be all happy... I have a mountain of salt when it comes to GW...the end times and aos follow up... need i say more? I can...
the not so grim and not dark at all future...
I miss the satire of days gone bye, the absolute derp factor of squatty marines and twerking orks.
Those god forsaken turkey warriors of the 2nd ed nids, i love how awful they are, even by the standard of the late 80s, early 90s. But they had charm, burn it with fire charm, but charm.
I got upset with GW as a company many times, but at the end of the day thats not why I detached. I would love buying books if they lasted 5-6 years, but the game is changing so fast, that many of them are outdated by release. Then the game is written for autistic lawyers, takes forever and just isnt as fun, when compared to OPR is night and day, when fun is concerned. I don't buy the models because they are just too expensive, I just cannot afford them, and none of my friends can either. The prices of everything has gone up so much, buying plastic that is more expensive than silver is just not an option anymore. At the end of the day, they are a company providing a product, and if someone is unhappy, they can find alternatives or other things to do. But thats just my perspective, GW is on record profits every year, margin is better than apple, they don't have debts and are building warehouses - cash. Their financials are so good, it's hard to believe, so that means people overall are loving their products
That's a very fair and rational take.
Also, I probably wouldn't have picked Infinity as your example lol. They are priced to the moon nowadays.
If you looked at Bolt Action, two $50 USD boxes of infantry and the $50 USD rulebook and you have a complete army.
For Battletech you just need a Lance pack for $25.99 USD and the $40 USD and you are also done.
The more boutique games are JUST as expensive, if not more so than GW nowadays.
The quality gap between infinity and bolt action is massive for only a small difference in price.
@@montroyalbynight8107 Small increase in price is a bit of an under statement lol.
The JSA Reinforcements pack is $89 USD MSRP for 6 minis versus $59 USD for 30 minis. The Afrika Korps and new Battle of the Bulge plastics are leagues above their early efforts.
Are they as detailed covered as Infinity minis? No, because they are based in reality and what people actually wore in WWII. Not a knock on Infinity at all, their minis are great if you like that aesthetic.
Just seemed a bit dishonest in the video where the comparison was saying that GW alternatives are just as expensive as GW, so you might as well just stay on the GW plantation.
I agree on the hate thing turning it volatile - I know gamers who specifically play other games like Infinity for the sole reason of them hating Games Workshop over prices, or rule changes or lore revisions or whatever - Never do they say "Oh, I love infinity because...." it is always "I play infinity because I hate Games Workshop"... It is no different that Trump haters only supporting Harris because they hate Trump, or Trump supporters only voting for him because they hate how expensive things are now and blame Biden, etc. I never hear "I love Trump because..." or "I love Harris because..."
A guy I know who got burned out on GW after they cancelled Warhammer Historical would try and get other people into games for ages and he was constantly giving out about GW while trying to get then on-board. It took a long time for him to get that you need to be positive about the thing you like. BattleTech has been my primary game for like 30 years and i've been running it at cons for most of that time and I only ever talk about why I like it, or to compare scales - Like I'll say BattleTech is Kill Team while Alpha Strike is 40K in broad terms of model count and complexity on-table.
Warhammer is game of rules. The strategy is remembering the rules and find lawyerly ways of getting gotchas on your opponent. I took the summer off because I couldn’t get the PN pack and when I got back I felt like I was starting at zero. I still enjoy it, but the game is rarely what people expect or wish it was.
This happened with me already in 2004. I left GW behind (until Underworlds/Kill Team brought me back) because of the disappointing direction the company had begun taking. But as a gamer first and foremost, I pivoted to boardgames of all sorts, but focused on historical wargames. I left miniatures behind.
If i stuck with minis, I’d play Dropfleet/Dropzone Commander.
Thanks for sharingQ
@@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 You're welcome. As an aside, I'd direct Kill Team players to GMT's Combat Commander WWII tactical game. The mechanics are excellent.
Came into the hobby in 97'. Late Second Edition, confused by all the super-killy characters that could devour multiple squads. Then Third Edition, then things started making sense! Still tough killy-characters, but not squad devourers. So, got a small collection of models after awhile. Left table top when Fifth Edition came in. Some highs, but alot of lows in follow on editions.
Now, Games Workshop virtue signals! Really, really, really dumb move! These Woke activists are bad news, and alot of long time fans who supported the franchise but had left table top are annoyed! Why should a hobby involving assembling and painting models need DEI POLITICAL oversight? Only way to hurt GW is in the profit margin! To force GW to return to a non-political orientated stance. Oh, NO FEMSTODES allowed! The Custodes are a Brotherhood, not a sisterhood!
I hope you find some peace in this world, friend.
I'm 50 and was around for Games Workshops early days and I can say I have ZERO interest in anything they do today...absolute garbage