Very cool! My country (Singapore) is introducing a new fleet of 4 Type 218SG submarines which also have the PEM fuel cell propulsion to replace our ageing ex-Swedish fleet of Challenger (ex-Sjoormen) and Archer (ex-Vastergotland) classes. Hope to see more briefs on diesel boats!
@@SubBrief About that non-magnetic hull on Type-212A, is it only the outer hull? I thought they were using non-magnetic steel for the pressure hull as well and was looking forward to hear your thoughts on how it fares against Magnetic Anomaly Detectors.
In big things like Nuclear Submarines is the US undefeated, but in Smaller, highly specialised things, especially Submarines, Germany has shown to be undefeatable.
There is no need for Germany to offer SNNs, for everyone who wants one builds it's own, Except Australia. Better to tailor subs like 212 A. They can be scaled to 4,000 tons ( Type 216) +.
@@V-V1875-h In the Baltic Sea the distances and time of travel to and from anywhere in there are not huge. Not only that, it would be a disadvantage to have a huge reactor compartment to house a nuclear reactor because that sets the minimum diameter of the pressure hull. The whole boat needs to be as thin and low profile as possible to be optimal in the Baltic Sea. There are but a few routes gigantic nuclear submarines can travel.
Nuclear submarines only make sense if you want to hunt ballistic missile submarines (SSBNs) under the polar ice. Because this is the place where they hide from satellites.
The thing above the IDAS is the german supercavitating Torpedo btw. Originally named Barracuda it's now called supercavitating underwater runningbody, because of course it is. It's was special because the head would articulate, allowing for high manouverability, suposedly enough to intercept other supercavitating torpedo's.
@@ramal5708 Harpoon is primarily Anti-Ship with a range of up to 250km. IDAS is a 20km range Anti-Air missle. Sort of a selfdefence weapon against aerial threats. It can be used against ships as well.
@@nonyabisness6306 I guess you know more than I do, I was mistaken not Harpoon but should be SM-2 missile cuz it could target both aircraft and vessels. I just copying from Wiki "IDAS technology is that is primarily targeted against air threats, such as ASW helicopters, but also against small or medium-sized surface vessels or coastal land targets."
@@ramal5708 afaik SM-2 can't be launched from submerged subs and has a range of 167km. There's a french version of IDAS called A3SM and there was development of AIM-9X in the US. A3SM is based, like IDAS, on the IRIS-T. At least in part. For some reason people don't want AA on their Subs and only really develop CruiseMissle and Ballistic Missle Launchers. The tech could be more widespread, with several Users keeping it secret to maintain an advantage for their subs. It's not that complicated.
Oh yes Siemens,he discovered insignificant things like the dynamo-electric principle, also known as the electrodynamic principle, and is considered the founder of modern electrical engineering, especially electrical energy engineering.
Worlds largest engineering technology company. The bigger question is what machine or technology they have not had their hand in? I commute downtown in a Siemens light rail train.
Regarding propulsion: The PEM Fuel Cell is not located within the elctric engine, it is a separate unit. Batteries are also used as a buffer to smooth out varying power demands in order to run the Fuel Cell in a steady state operation. And if I recall correctly, the PEM Fuel Cell and the hydrogen storage was developed by HDW and not by Siemens. Best case, it was a joint venture development between the two.
Another fantastic lecture. 212A is very interesting because of all the unique technology that goes into these boats. I found the IDAS missile system specifically to be very impressive. Thanks again, JT!
The yellow box battery light is most likely there to illuminate the stored consumables that the tube is filled with so that one can more easily access it (in peacetime 212As do not sail with a full torpedo complement so all sorts of dry goods are stored in one or more tubes, in wartime those would be stored elsewhere or may be even omitted since they may be convenience type foods such as beer or candy).
Displacement (surface): ~ 2,500 m³ Length overall: ~ 73 m Beam: ~ 10 m Height: ~ 13 m For comparison: U212A Displacement (surface): ~ 1,400 m³ Length overall: ~ 56 m Beam: ~ 7 m Height: ~ 11.5 m It's really a whole new class.
Would be cool if the Dutch joined in with Den Helder becoming a maintenance hub for all nations servicing 212 class subs as proposed in the German bid. The Netherlands have yet to decide on the replacement of their Walrus-class subs.
@@CidFafner Are there any "real" specs out for the 212 CD E design yet? I just watched the presentation. I bet the RAN will have a look on it, as an alternative for their "SSN" venture.
Because you asked how capable this missle is. The IDAS is based on the IRIS-T. The IRIS-T is the best or one of the best short-range air-to-air missiles in the world. It can make a 180 degree turn in flight and shoot down enemy planes behind its own plane. The sensors are also revolutionary. The missle detects the type of aircraft and has a database with photos in which the missle can recognizes where the enemy aircraft is most vulnerable. The area in which the sensor can detect targets is also much larger than other NATO missles (for example the american aim9x). The iris T is without a doubt one of the best air-to-air missiles in the world and has been used as the main armament of our Eurofighters for years (I'm german xD). I assume that IDAS has a presumably reduced range. However, this missle is just a beast.
As a South African fan i got a little giddy when you mentioned the SA boot, love it when we get mentioned by foreigners since we never get talked about positively XD
Looking forward to the new 212CD, where Norway are also procuring a small number of these, and building pretty much all of the C2 elements. We also produced the MSI90U system(s) for the 212A afaik
@@Gentleman...Driver no such thing, Greece, Turkey and South Korea have the U 214 which is a completely different submarine then the U212A which is only operated by the Germans and Italians,
@@antoniopirisi6061 U214 is based on 212A. In fact it is almost the same, but it lacks the stealth-paint and the electronic warfare as far as I can tell.
@@Gentleman...Driver The 212As have a non-magnetic steel hull. That means better stealth, but less structural strength and thus less diving depths (internet rumor: 3-400m vs 4-500m for normal operations; destruction occurs a lot deeper only ...). 214 is also longer and has more overall range when using the diesel. Also, there are now 4 generations of the fuel cell tech. The export boats usually are one generation behind the 212s.
I was watching a German-produced documentary about the Type 212 sub U32 going on an exercise, it was pretty interesting. At one point the captain announced, "We sail for England" and I was like, "ah yes, Standing Order Ein"
Regards from Germany, this very documentary is a cult-classic for german naval fans. Actually it should get dubbed to english because it's quite funny and the sub's commander Lars Gössing is kind of the poster boy / public figure of the contemporary german submarine fleet.
The 18 days submerged passage record was set by S527 Scire sub on the way to a 5-month deployment for exercises with the US Navy , it was set crossing the Atlantic from Ponta Delgada in the Azore to the American coast. during the same deployment for the first time, the sub was put at the head of the battle group, this role is performed by nuclear-powered submarines, I do not know the length of time that it performed the task but it does indicate that the sub has higher capabilities than disclosed until now.
Interesting on the hydrogen and oxygen tanks. In rockets the hydrogen section of a fuel tank is much larger than the O2 tank. Think its a density thing with hydrogen.
Correct. Liquid hydrogen has twice the explosive power of gasoline by weight, but only 25% by volume. That's because a molecule of hydrogen takes up the same space as a molecule of gasoline in spite of being much lighter. But a molecule of hydrogen has only two hydrogen atoms, whereas a molecule of octane has eighteen.
They are storing the Hydrogen as Metal-hydrate, not as a gas under pressure. I think I read somewhere that it's supposedly Palladiumhydrate, but I can't confirm that. The Oxygen is stored as a compressed gas.
@@JainZar1 Several methods for compacting the hydrogen have been tried. But all involve considerable industrial processing and are far more complicated and energy-intense than pouring a liquid.
@@shane99ca You do realize, that keeping hydrogen at cryogenic temperatures for months requires either a) insane amounts of insulation or b) large amounts of energy to refrigerate the hydrogen using helium as refrigerant. Also, due to the constant evaporation in a line that goes into the water, the system would be a huge noise offender. Utilizing Metal-hydrates, you can store Hydrogen pretty efficiently by just increasing or decreasing pressure inside the storage tanks without any noise. And the process for hydrogen liquefaction is pretty much the end-all be all in terms of refrigeration, only Helium is harder to liquefy and you do both by evaporation cooling. Liquid Helium is used in Microwave sensors that need to get down to 4K for example.
Big fan and a subscriber. Love the videos and the format, in particular the sincerity of the presentation. Not a fashion show for the host or amateur night at the comedy club wannabes! Thank you.
@@antoniopirisi6061 not quite: the first one was the U24 (a class 206 boat) on the JTFEX 01-2 maneuver in 2001. Shooting a nice picture of the enterprise through the priscope while simulating a torpedo attack on the carrier. After that it surfaced beside the carrier.
Ehhhh. It sounds good but I'm dubious that any captain worth his bars would give away his position by using that. Stealth isnt just their greatest asset it's also their best defense. If you're detected best to evade and clear.
@@navyreviewer there were already several tests as early as 2008, where the system was tested and it performed like it should. if you are in littoral operations like the baltic and close to the shores in the north sea, you cant just go for depth or evade, as the water is often less than 70m deep. the baltic sea is a puddle, the north sea is for large stretches very shallow and some areas are only acessible with small boats for a few hours a day, due to tides (around the coast of germany, the netherlands, france and britain for 8 hours a day the water just vanishes for sometimes dozens of kilometers. if you are caught in these waters by an anti submarine plane/helicopter you are a sitting duck
@@navyreviewer the ability to shoot down anti-submarine aircraft is very important, for a shallow water submarine. and being able to launch them, while submerged, is crazy. also, the real interesting bit, is that it's a (fiber optic) wire guided model, which means you can do some interesting stuff with that missile. could even be useful to cause an aircraft to panic, which that alone is useful, breaking off attack runs, or searches to evade. there is also the ability to "go offensive" with the missiles, opening up a new mission profile for the sub, say, if intel discovered that an enemy ranking officer is moving up close to the front, you could shoot down their plane or helo, with a range of 12 kilometers. short ranged compared to cruise missile missions, but the baltic is so tight... anti-submaine aircraft are quite vulnerable to this kind of attack (esp as with a wire guided system, you could technically manually guide the missile (with visual and or IR or even radar sensors) like a wire guided anti-tank weapon (which requires skill and practice, but is harder to fake out in theory with normal countermeasures). hell, with a change out of warhead, you could basically be shooting Hellfire missiles from a submarine just off the coast. once you get the tech down where you are firing missiles without capsules from submerged state... all sorts of possibilities.
There are 4 levers - one for each plane - and some rather complicated gauges in the emergency control stand. Normally, the boat is driven by someone with a mouse and keyboard (a wee bite like WASD mechanics).
thanks for the nice video. if you do a follow up (212cd or something) you might want to mention the differences in cms (atlas, kongsberg) and maybe the size limitations (diving kadetrinne being a reason) or maybe the hull shape or the x rudder. keep up the good work!
@@thomasputko1080 and what? His later non-fictional books were accused of being too "focused" on the US forces. In the short summary on the other sub building nations he just gave facts, no belittling or anything disrespectful.
Not just the interior equipment is modular, to a degree the hull too is modular. Theoretically you can insert new sections into the hull. Like the USN did with the George Washington Class SSBN, just by design.
Quick comment on this excellent video: Germany has not been under treaty obligations in respect to its weapons arsenal since 1990, when the Two Plus Four Agreement ("Schützenpanzer Marder") was signed, right before reunification. Germany is a member of NPT and CWC (amongst others) though, of course.
The 2+4 treaty does forbid Germnay from having its own nukes, though. Thus its Tornados are carrying American nukes. And what does the Marder have to do with anything? The Marder II was killed by the peace dividend, not any treaty or even political limitations ...
@@positroll7870 AFAIK the German government's will to refrain from aquiring nukes was a sself voluntary descision signed in an extra agreement and is not part of the basic 2+4 treaties, but I may be wrong here
@@phil3114 Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany September 12, 1990 ARTICLE 3 (1) The Governments of the Federal Republic of Germany and the German Democratic Republic reaffirm their renunciation of the manufacture and possession of and control over nuclear, biological and chemical weapons. They declare that the united Germany, too, will abide by these commitments. In particular, rights and obligations arising from the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons of 1 July 1968 will continue to apply to the united Germany.
Mediterranean is not shallow. The average depth of Mediterranean is 1,500m, that's well beyond the diving capabilities of any submarine. The average depth of the North Sea is 95m, and of the baltic is just 50m.
That's just the average (arithmetic mean). What's the median, modal value, variance and standard deviation? Just as an example: If 90% is 50m deep and 10% is 5000m deep, the average depth is 545m. However you would be foolish to design a submarine optimized for that average depth when in reality most of the time you only have 50m. Another example: There are nine vegetable farmers and one pig farmer. The pig farmer has 10 pigs, so on average every farmer has one pig. Good luck trying to get your average bacon from one of the vegetable farmers ...
Interesting, listening to what the torpedos hear we did in the eighties in sweden: And this was on our FAC class surface ships. I am suprised about not every navy doing this already.
It doesn't surprise me if there are probes that is capable of active and passive including the possibility to transmit the sound of a submarine as a decoy.
😁😁😁😁 I know that type of Sub. Seen it the exact way it is displayed in the picture. Greetings from Kiel - btw: they are called German Naval Yards (formerly known as HDW).
I can assure you they ARE piston operated, in fact you'd be surprised by how much has backup hydraulics! I heard from a knowing source that I'm not allowed to expose that theorethically you could operate this sub by hydraulics for quite a while when power goes out, it's meant to be a security measure, but indeed it could be used to cheese it and hypothetically be even more sneaky about doing things. As for the piston thing: Big chamber little piston movement, loads of pressurised water/volume, smaller torpedo tube means more velocity for ejection with constant volume, again simple hydraulics. PS: There is a documentary about the sub doing that long mission and they indeed have cradles, althought the after mission beer is stored in an empty torp tube to passively stay cool ;)
@@mtumeumrani376 never heard it running, i went into the one that was turned into a museum, altough i have to say (expectable of a sub) its not that big of a ship, at least on the inside. altough it was the first sub i ever visited
@@roccaraso1771 i never heard of a modern submarine turned into a museum. Here in the U.S, the Navy occasionally lets the public tour active surface ships for recruiting/pr purposes. I've visited two active Navy ships growing up: USS Caron and possibly USS Chosin when they had visited CT in the late 90s and early 2000s. People would travel the world to see the inside of a Typhoon or Kirov.
You mandate the use of, and there by the testing of, the battle lanterns for all Tube inspections, two birds with one stone, though only a few seconds saved, the crew becomes comfortable with the battle lanterns.
Wonder if they've experimented with VR goggles for periscope usage. Seems... more efficient. Not having to get up, taking up space in center of control room when not in use as primary means of using periscope... then again redundancy would suck. How do ships compensate for towed detecting opposing ships towed arrays? Like.. the sonar contact would be coming from 100 meters towed behind the sub... or however far they spool the towed array out, right? How is that compensated for in targeting? Everything on the sub looked passive. Though maybe I'm wrong about that. The towed array is primarily to see behind their turbulence in water right? I really love these detailed class, overview videos.
@@KP3droflxp Well, I'd assume it would be more advanced tech that available today. And make stereoscopic possible. It's not an impossibility as far as I know. But yeah, just random idea.
@@jonny-b4954 I think it definitely should be possible to get a stereoscopic view from the periscope. But why? The targets are too far away to perceive any depth so current periscopes just show the same image for both eyes.
I think this design with relatively small diameters and displacement, plus AIP and stealthiness, and superior weaponary can effectively give Type 212 the chance to overcome nearly any vessel out there, in underwater or surface. This is the peak of submarines, I wish we could see fully electrical, silent sub in the near future. SSNs and SSBNs could be absolute in any time with the introduction of these stealth subs. Neither massively thick Russian/Soviet subs nor the long hulled US subs with VLS are gonna win this fight. Stealth always should be the priority when it comes to ASW.
6:18 I wonder outer layer is mostly absorbent and some pressure resistance so that sound goes through it twice, being absorbed twice before it escapes after bouncing off the real pressure vessel.
I guess comfort wise the nuclear sub you worked on is lightyears ahead of these small boats. In ballistic missile subs, crew comfort is not bad I guess.
@@Joshua_N-A testing has been going on for a decade, with life firings from German and Italian subs. Official Bundeswehr sources are planning on official introduction in 2023 and in service on the first subs in 2024, as part of the general refit cycle. Covid might add half a year or so to the time line.
@@klauskoerper2390 Die Aussage war aber, dass es nie geplant war was vollkommen korrekt ist. Natürlich kann es in Zukunft geplant werde, aber das ist erstens nicht zu erwarten und würde zweitens an der urpsprünglichen Aussage nichts ändern.
There was some preliminary planning wheter it was feasible to mount the Mauser RMK30 inside a pressure container attached to an extendable mast. But it was dropped for complexity reasons much because RMK30 is a recoilless autocannon that was designed for land/air use and would have required additional recertification and redesign for naval use. In a way this was seen as a stop-gap measure if the development of IDAS would prove to be a total writeoff/failure.
Eher is a good video of a very stormy travel, of one of this boats in the channel of the north sea. Well it is in germany but the picture speaks for it self.
@subbrief hi, great lecture thank you. Question about the passive ranging flank array. I can image how the angle of a noise can be obtained, but how about the distance? the only thing i could think of is that different kind of noises are cataloged into a kind of classification about how loud they are when they are emitted. When they are received the distance can be guessed according to how much noise they loose by 1 meter traveltime and the received volume? btw could reflections mess up the distance?
Former SIGINT guy here - this is all about the angle to the recorded source. As a vessel moves through the water, the bearing angle changes and after a few minutes you get several different lines of bearing that can be overlaid to produce an approximate fix. Water conditions will change that a bit based on many factors, but that's basically it. For us ground types, we'd have a series of intercept stations that could conduct Df operations. Get 3 or more fixes on an enemy transmitter? You've got a fire mission.
Wow I'm super impressed with that AA missile they've got. Way too often when I'm playing Cold Waters did I want something, ANYTHING to shoot back at those pesky planes.
Think of it, the sub is made for waters so shallow and places so narrow, it's not like they have any choice but to fight back if they want to survive, but they have to shoot first. If the ASW weapon is on the way, it's like fire and forget 👩🔧🇺🇲🛠️🇷🇺
This is a natural development of the diesel electric subs of ww2. Same ideas just with better technologies to achieve the same thing stealth, but with this generation of submarine technologies, Brilliant show.
The outer hull is metallic, but its not magnetic, for MAD would not get a reading and protection against magnetic fused mines. That's standard for German subs since Type 206.
(18:19) That's more for things like "Jonesy" did with seaman "Beaumont", with no need for a whale to be around. There are shore based simulators and before a tour the crew needs to pass some tests there.
Thanks to the fuel cell drive, it is one of the quietest submarines in the world. But I would like to emphasize that the German navy, like NATO, is only used for defense and control! Besides, a torpedo has a range up to 50 km. Hugs to all from Berlin, Germany, and keep up your detailed work!
@@NathanDudani Don't worry - in the current political climate within the country Germany attacking any nation for whatever reason is not even half as likely as the U.S. becoming a socialist state.
The German MOD clearly had some surplus fiber optic cables, so they just attached them to everything. I bet there's also a submarine towing cable made of fiber optic. Question: Is there any problem with the asymmetric arrangement of the torpedo tubes, are there any disadvantages/advantages) of such an arrangement?
Why did they go from a 7 blade to a 6 blade screw? I would think that the seven blade screw would be more efficient. Also the anti-torpedo cable they attached around the rear dive planes, were those attached to the old ones or the new ones? Because I've seen pictures of ones that don't have it.
Respect! Very good technical instruction .... It looks like they really have a clue. One more: There is a 'rumor' that one of these submarines is said to have cost a US admiral the post. During an exercise as an 'enemy' it is said to have appeared suddenly and unnoticed next to a US carrier until then. Do you know about this 'story' ?!
Submarines from most nations get inside carrier groups pretty consistently during exercises, so it's likely that an admiral lost his post over it. Surface ships are at a pretty tremendous disadvantage against submarines because of their high noise and difficulty sensing below the layer.
@@WerepieI'm not sure I'd say it happens "consistently". The few examples I've heard of seemed to be rare enough to be reported in the news -- and in this particular incident, the admiral was said to have been furious about getting blindsided like that. Carrier groups feature sophisticated rings of escorts with ASW capabilities, after all. Then again, perhaps it is simply a case of hubris and too much trust in one's own invulnerability due to all that expensive high-tech surrounding the CV? I believe the incident JeWi's comment was referring to is something that occurred in 2001, maybe it's just become more commonplace since then.
Thyssen is not pronounced "Thigh-sen" it's more like "Tiss-en" altho the y sound is more like an umlaut so I know it can be hard for english speakers. Greetings from Germany.
In general his German pronounciasion was horrible. But considering the high quality of the video, and that he's American (which is in another world from German pronounciasion) it's unimportant.
Hello Jive, I love all the content you put out, I work for [redacted] and just love all the information you share about other classes of subs and your own experiences. speaking of own experiences, with the UAPTF preliminary assessment released on June 25th, I thought of you and wondered if you ever heard anything USO related in all your time listening underwater.
Do you think that the US navy should consider putting diesel/electric subs to service in order both to maintain a big sub fleet and to use their advantageous characteristics for shallow water operations (Taiwan strait or the gulf for example)?
I dont, and the reason is range. US subs, mostly, have to sail from the US to the other side of the planet. Diesels can do it but nuke buys that long submerged patrol time. Dont get me wrong I'm not knocking diesels. I do believe the US should making some for training and export (akin to the F-5 freedom fighter) but for us it doesnt fit into our strategy.
@@navyreviewer us subs have to be stationed in the US BECAUSE they are nuclear powered. If the US navy bought eg 6 u212cd-e for the north Atlantic and 6 for the med, it could easily station them in European ports. Freeing up some of its ssn for the pacific.
You gotta do a video on more submarine constructions. The beginning of this video with all those real cutouts visible was fascinating. Like something less about the history but more on the tech/building of the submarines past what a generic cutout shows. Either way great job almost to 100k subscribers
Two General questions: How much noise this sub is generating (in dB), How much is the quiete US Sub and Russia Sub. Overall, the hull design of an uboat, is there any potential in the form, or will in future all subs have the same hull design?
New German-Norwegian u212 CD project has a hexagonal hull for stealth purposes, defeating active sonar. Same for proposed u212 cd-e that the Dutch might be getting.
yes there are: in 2013 U32 "sunk" an us aircraft carrier during an excercise without getting detected, but also performed battlegroup defense, protecting the carrier from engaging surface and submerged vessels, the evaluation was, that 212A performed beyond expectations. it happens quite often that "Diesel Electric Boats" like the modern Gotland Class or 212A but also 206A can infiltrate a carrier group and sink the carrier during excercises, as the carrier group makes a lot of noise and these boats can mask their approach with that, unlike a nuclear sub, wich is a bit louder than one of these. that is also the reason, why us carrier groups do regular excercises with these boats, to increase their ability to detect and counter them.
@@zhufortheimpaler4041 Thanks for the Info! :) Do have any sources for me? It is quite frightening that a "cheap" diesel sub is such a huge threat to a complete carrier group. Thinking of defending Taiwan etc.
@@Blubber789 2001 JTFEX 01-02 U24 (206A Dieselsub) infiltrated Enterprises inner defense perimeter, fired a simulated torpedo spread and green Flares and surfaced next to Enterprise without being detected previously. a foto was taken priot to surfacing through the targeting periscope. 1997 at SUBEX97 in the carribean U26 several times passed a Los Angeles Class Nuclear Attack Sub in extremly close proximity without being detected during a combat simulation, the diesel sub had the objective to hunt the LA class during that excercise. during the Falkland war, the San Luis, a 209 Diesel Sub closed to torpedo range with the british battle group and fired a spread of 8 guided torpedos at the invincible, only due to bad crew training nothing major happened. (incorrectly mounted cables on the torpedos) the british on the other hand "wasted" about 100 anti uboat torpedos in return but also missed. then the Gotland Class, wich had done comparable actions during multinational excercises with us carrier groups.
@@Blubber789 it helps knowing the general area where the carrier will be. Luckily, the pacific is rather big, and the Chinese subs are rather loud. Also, a fully equipped and armed u212a comes in at around a billion dollars, so it's not that cheap...
@@zhufortheimpaler4041 Its quite an accomplishment, but what they did was basicly playing dead - no engines running at all. They knew where the carrier was going and as soon as the carrier past them they fired their simulated torpedoes. I dont think a carrier group would venture into the north sea / baltic sea in a full scale war against Russia. They would be sitting ducks. :)
The official price tags says that one Virgina class costs $3,4 bn. The German 212A officially costs $560 mn. HOWEVER, german warships usually do not include any ammunition, and in case of the Type 212A there were no spare parts at all included (which is the reason why nearly all boats had extensive yard times when damaged: there were simply no spare parts; so Germany bought spare part packages for another $300 mn per boat back in 2017[?]). So the complete price for a German 212A should be around $900 mn. Germany bought its 6 Type 212A subs for the price of 1.5 Virginia class subs. So the answer to your question is 4.
@@floriantolk4920 yeah, but that very much depends on numbers. If the US were to join up with Germany and the Dutch to build a dozen of the proposed u212cd-e (longer version of the CD) for the US (in addition to the 6 Dutch and maybe 3 German) the price for each ship could come down a LOT. The US would of course then add its own weapon systems...
@@positroll7870 Did the dutch government decide on whether to buy the 212CD? (I really don't know. I know that the dutch and german governments had a chat about a Walrus successor but the dutch postponed or something.) Anyway, I don't know what the 212CD is gonna cost. I just know about the intents of the german government to buy 2 and of the norwegian government to buy 4 212CD boats. And you're right, there would be some scaling mechanics. But I would be surprised if the german government approves the technological export to the US at this point. But since half of the German 212CD electronics and software will be prodcued by Atlas, I doubt that there is any problem for the dutch to have some boats. But looking at what the US did to the FREMM program resp. Constellation class, they will just throw their electronics and sensors at it until it costs $1.5 bn apiece. (Very important: some of the decisions made when designing the 212 are just incompatible with how the US usually build their subs ... like the CSU90 is a cylindrical array, while the US usually deploy sphericals; the 212 is so small that "lengthening the hull some meters" will just not do it for the US, let alone that the additional size had to be propelled, which is in turn the reason for designing small subs; weapons arrangement and so forth.) So that the US buys some "212-like" subs is certainly not impossible (I remember the US trying to buy HDW and TKMS several times in the past), but I guess that's rather unlikely to happen in the near future.
@Sub Brief have you done a video about what off the shelf submarine could be a good fit for the Australian Navy's needs? Last I read they were looking at a SAAB project to share with the Netherlands. Basically a Collins 2 class.
The "Aussies" rejected a 212 design, called Type 216. I bet they will swim to Kiel or Emden to test one of the 212 CD E class, and beg TKMS to tailor them such a boat.
7:55 just no. That's not how atoms work. The size of the atom does not determine the amount of space it takes. First of, gaseous elements are usually diatomic (O2 and H2 in this case - but there is also an unusual thing with oxygen that it can be Ozone or O3 - that's irrelevant here) and when either gaseous or liquid, pure elements have the same volume under the same pressure and temparature. The weight is what is different. I rather suspect that oxygen is used for more than the propulsion, for example, breathing - so they need more. They actually need twice the hydrogen to oxygen per volume: 2x H2 + 1x O2 >> 2x H2O. Oh, and if you dig a bit further, oxygen is even more compressible than hydrogen. So, that further settles that the oxygen - if there is truly more carried by volume - is used for something else.
The outside of the 212A's hull is not non-metallic. It is anti-magnetic steel. And first batch units of the type 212A ejected their special forces through the torpedo tubes. 2 weapons divers per tube.
Can known sources of varying biologics be used as an Active Sonar source? You know where moving or stationary things are by building up a picture like Astronomers use Interferometry? Sound version of a Light Echo?
The hydrogen is not used in a pressured liquid state but as hydrid, which is solid and stable at temperatures up to 300°C. Meaning there's no pressure tank for the hydrogen necessary. It can be stored like coal.
@@nikosvithoulkas180 They intend to, but there's not enough magnesium for broad industrial applications. Maybe it'll be enough for the military (tanks etc).
There's a coop between norway and germany - i think potentially poland - to build a bigger sub together that also suits the norwegen demand to guard a real costline and the german demand to support safety missions on trade routes.
@@keepingcalm6469 So stupid to deploy a submarine for escorting missions on trade routes. A Corvette/Frigate is much more capable in doing this sort of missions and you wouldnt waste money on a design you dont need.
@@keepingcalm6469 A Frigate would excel in this, too. Only thing a sub would be good for is if you dont want to get detected by a foreign power like Iran.
Yes, they ordered the successor of the 212a Class. It's calles 212cd, cd standing for common design. So Norway and Germany are basically egnineering and building this new sub together and this help bonding both Navies and cutting costs.
So far ger is getting 2 of them. There are options for 4 more. But if the Dutch order the proposed cd-e, Germany might go for more of those instead, depending on needs.
@@positroll7870 A county like Norway has a much, much longer coastline compared to Germany og The Nederlands. Norway had 15 subs when the first cold war ended. With round 2 looming now, there is no reason to have lesser numbers.
@@hantykje3005 there is nothing to stop Norway or Germany from ordering more if the first batch works as planned. Same pattern for the original 212a. First batch ordered., tested and evaluated. Then ger bought a second batch. Norway might also be watching if the Dutch order the cd-e and then order a few of those instead of a second batch. Use the smaller CD close to shore and the bigger cde out in the Atlantic or closer to Russia...
So I was thinking about torpedoes (as one does), and I’m curious, does a torpedo have a ballast system? Or does it only use the force on the control surfaces to control its place in the water column? Are they neutrally buoyant? Inquiring minds would like to know ;) love the vids
Hi, I work for Atlas Elektronik (part of TKMS) and we're the ones building the torpedoes, among other things, for this boat. The DM2A4 is simply packed to the brim with lithium batteries (these are fit in modules, as mentioned in the video) and is steered by sheer force. ;) I guess it's the same with other types.
Id love to see more of a Video Format. The Information ist great and I love how u tall about it. But the Powerpoint is not my favorite. That beeing said, thanks for you great content!
Brilliant stuff as ever. Fascinating, thanks. Subtitles have changed your name to captain dive turkey haha! I spose they thought submarines, what else could it be?
@Sub Brief Iirc in the News they said that U-35 struck an uncharted ( sure... o.O) underwater mountain and had to e-blow. No info on U-32s Battery issues, but at that time, the whole German Navy sub "fleet" was out of action (lack of funding). In the same time period, we had a serious SM2 hangfire accident on FFG Sachsen (Video on TH-cam, search: German Navy Frigate SACHSEN SM2 Missile Accident) which caused serious damage to the ship - luckily only two lightly injured. Greets from Germany
Wait a second, for the idas you are telling me that that capsule that holds four missiles that stays in the sub while only one missile at a time can leave the submarine? I always assumed that the entire assembly goes to the surface and then they get up to four shots once the entire tube is on the surface
no, the "launching magazin tube" with the four IDAS stays in the torpedotube so all four missles could be lauched idenpendently and when empty (or the tube is needed for another task) it is restockt in the torpedomagazin by the autoloader
If it's true and IADS is based on IRIS-T then it's monster. "Extreme close-in agility allowing turns of 60 g at a rate of 60°/s via thrust vectoring" for example. As surface based version about at least 15km range ? Max speed mach3.
Honestly that is incredible hard to doge for a fighterjet and a deathsentence for anything bigger, slower and less agil then that. It also automatically targets weekpoints. I guess the weekpoint might be the cable but I don't know :P
@@timmteller871 The cable is only really needed to give the missile initial target information. It needs to know where to turn and look for a target when it comes out of the water. Basically it's comparable with the "lock-on after launch" capability. Normally you would transmit target information via radio, but radio doesn't really work under water so you need a cable.
Very cool! My country (Singapore) is introducing a new fleet of 4 Type 218SG submarines which also have the PEM fuel cell propulsion to replace our ageing ex-Swedish fleet of Challenger (ex-Sjoormen) and Archer (ex-Vastergotland) classes. Hope to see more briefs on diesel boats!
Very cool!
@@SubBrief About that non-magnetic hull on Type-212A, is it only the outer hull? I thought they were using non-magnetic steel for the pressure hull as well and was looking forward to hear your thoughts on how it fares against Magnetic Anomaly Detectors.
@@death_paradeafaik the whole thing is as much as possible made from amag steel. Possibly even the diesel engine has some
As a submariner that served in the 00’s, I gotta say these 212As are pretty mind blowing. Seriously formidable.
In big things like Nuclear Submarines is the US undefeated, but in Smaller, highly specialised things, especially Submarines, Germany has shown to be undefeatable.
There is no need for Germany to offer SNNs, for everyone who wants one builds it's own, Except Australia. Better to tailor subs like 212 A. They can be scaled to 4,000 tons ( Type 216) +.
@@EK-gr9gd also its area of operation doesnt really need the nuclear propulsion
@@V-V1875-h In the Baltic Sea the distances and time of travel to and from anywhere in there are not huge. Not only that, it would be a disadvantage to have a huge reactor compartment to house a nuclear reactor because that sets the minimum diameter of the pressure hull. The whole boat needs to be as thin and low profile as possible to be optimal in the Baltic Sea. There are but a few routes gigantic nuclear submarines can travel.
Nuclear submarines only make sense if you want to hunt ballistic missile submarines (SSBNs) under the polar ice. Because this is the place where they hide from satellites.
The swedes and the Japanese beg to differ.
The thing above the IDAS is the german supercavitating Torpedo btw. Originally named Barracuda it's now called supercavitating underwater runningbody, because of course it is. It's was special because the head would articulate, allowing for high manouverability, suposedly enough to intercept other supercavitating torpedo's.
That would be pretty rad. ^^
I thought IDAS is medium range missile, like Harpoon but smaller and shorther range plus wire guided
@@ramal5708 Harpoon is primarily Anti-Ship with a range of up to 250km. IDAS is a 20km range Anti-Air missle. Sort of a selfdefence weapon against aerial threats. It can be used against ships as well.
@@nonyabisness6306 I guess you know more than I do, I was mistaken not Harpoon but should be SM-2 missile cuz it could target both aircraft and vessels.
I just copying from Wiki "IDAS technology is that is primarily targeted against air threats, such as ASW helicopters, but also against small or medium-sized surface vessels or coastal land targets."
@@ramal5708 afaik SM-2 can't be launched from submerged subs and has a range of 167km.
There's a french version of IDAS called A3SM and there was development of AIM-9X in the US. A3SM is based, like IDAS, on the IRIS-T. At least in part.
For some reason people don't want AA on their Subs and only really develop CruiseMissle and Ballistic Missle Launchers.
The tech could be more widespread, with several Users keeping it secret to maintain an advantage for their subs. It's not that complicated.
Italy and Germany working together
*France and Britain sweat nervously*
Just for cost reduction.
France and Germany are even closer partners, actually. To the point that they have combined military formations.
Good thing that we're all friends now through NATO. I'm Swedish and we finally got accepted into the cool kids club
"made by a company named Siemens"
you might have heard of it...
Sure. GoodGermanGear!
Oh yes Siemens,he discovered insignificant things like the dynamo-electric principle, also known as the electrodynamic principle, and is considered the founder of modern electrical engineering, especially electrical energy engineering.
I've been inside a Siemens MRI a few times and it was like being inside a torpedo tube.
Worlds largest engineering technology company. The bigger question is what machine or technology they have not had their hand in? I commute downtown in a Siemens light rail train.
Their MRT x ray tubes are also the best
Regarding propulsion: The PEM Fuel Cell is not located within the elctric engine, it is a separate unit. Batteries are also used as a buffer to smooth out varying power demands in order to run the Fuel Cell in a steady state operation. And if I recall correctly, the PEM Fuel Cell and the hydrogen storage was developed by HDW and not by Siemens. Best case, it was a joint venture development between the two.
The quitest sub in operation today, it really is incredibly impressive.
That you know of, ;)
@@grindergaming4572 "red october theme starts"
Another fantastic lecture. 212A is very interesting because of all the unique technology that goes into these boats. I found the IDAS missile system specifically to be very impressive. Thanks again, JT!
The yellow box battery light is most likely there to illuminate the stored consumables that the tube is filled with so that one can more easily access it (in peacetime 212As do not sail with a full torpedo complement so all sorts of dry goods are stored in one or more tubes, in wartime those would be stored elsewhere or may be even omitted since they may be convenience type foods such as beer or candy).
Yes, actually quite often the beer is stored there.
sound legit, during my service time in the bundesmarine (on a tender) we had the beer bottles in the cannon-barrels :)
Interesting stuff! As a child, I once made a PEM in a research lab in Germany. Nice to see a special use case like that.
You should have mentioned the 212CD, Norway is getting four of these beauties and Germany two.
Displacement (surface): ~ 2,500 m³
Length overall: ~ 73 m
Beam: ~ 10 m
Height: ~ 13 m
For comparison: U212A
Displacement (surface): ~ 1,400 m³
Length overall: ~ 56 m
Beam: ~ 7 m
Height: ~ 11.5 m
It's really a whole new class.
Would be cool if the Dutch joined in with Den Helder becoming a maintenance hub for all nations servicing 212 class subs as proposed in the German bid. The Netherlands have yet to decide on the replacement of their Walrus-class subs.
@@CidFafner Are there any "real" specs out for the 212 CD E design yet? I just watched the presentation. I bet the RAN will have a look on it, as an alternative for their "SSN" venture.
@@CidFafner didn't they went for the Saab/Damen one?
@@DarkDutch007 we might now by the end of 2022
Because you asked how capable this missle is. The IDAS is based on the IRIS-T. The IRIS-T is the best or one of the best short-range air-to-air missiles in the world. It can make a 180 degree turn in flight and shoot down enemy planes behind its own plane. The sensors are also revolutionary. The missle detects the type of aircraft and has a database with photos in which the missle can recognizes where the enemy aircraft is most vulnerable. The area in which the sensor can detect targets is also much larger than other NATO missles (for example the american aim9x). The iris T is without a doubt one of the best air-to-air missiles in the world and has been used as the main armament of our Eurofighters for years (I'm german xD). I assume that IDAS has a presumably reduced range. However, this missle is just a beast.
IDAS has about 12km range
@@zhufortheimpaler4041 Official, public range. Who knows whats the actual range is.
Iris-t on duty in Ukraine right now
@@VolkerGoller yessir
28:50 - Maybe the Flashlight is for finding the Beer that is stored in the tubes 😅
Someone saw the documentaries xD
Good to hear the words German friends :) Thank you for this really great video - learned a lot about this marvel piece of hardware!
As a South African fan i got a little giddy when you mentioned the SA boot, love it when we get mentioned by foreigners since we never get talked about positively XD
There is more to IDAS then just AA (impressive enough). It can also be used against small ships and even against land based targets.
Easy! (11:45) The PEM charges the batteries (accumulators), which feed the e-motors. There is no connection between PEM and shaft.
212A, one of the most beautiful subs in the world.
Funny, I find it completely ugly. Short and knobby, not like the old sleeker 206s or the big nuclear driven NATO subs. ^^
Type VIIC is the most beautifull submarine.
Looking forward to the new 212CD, where Norway are also procuring a small number of these, and building pretty much all of the C2 elements.
We also produced the MSI90U system(s) for the 212A afaik
For the first batch. The last two 212a do have another system.
Not sure how the export version differs. Greece has a few of them, too.
@@Gentleman...Driver
no such thing, Greece, Turkey and South Korea have the U 214 which is a completely different submarine then the U212A which is only operated by the Germans and Italians,
@@antoniopirisi6061 U214 is based on 212A. In fact it is almost the same, but it lacks the stealth-paint and the electronic warfare as far as I can tell.
@@Gentleman...Driver The 212As have a non-magnetic steel hull. That means better stealth, but less structural strength and thus less diving depths (internet rumor: 3-400m vs 4-500m for normal operations; destruction occurs a lot deeper only ...). 214 is also longer and has more overall range when using the diesel.
Also, there are now 4 generations of the fuel cell tech. The export boats usually are one generation behind the 212s.
I was watching a German-produced documentary about the Type 212 sub U32 going on an exercise, it was pretty interesting. At one point the captain announced, "We sail for England" and I was like, "ah yes, Standing Order Ein"
Regards from Germany, this very documentary is a cult-classic for german naval fans. Actually it should get dubbed to english because it's quite funny and the sub's commander Lars Gössing is kind of the poster boy / public figure of the contemporary german submarine fleet.
What is the name of the documentary?
@@spitefulwar I am quite sure that one of the documentaries featuring him did get dubbed.
@@spitefulwar Gössing later transferred to the Naval School and commanded U Boat training.
@@spitefulwaris that the one with the storm?
Great lecture. 43:40 People Tank. I haven't heard that term for years, the RAN submariners use that term also for the pressure hull.
Thanks!
I remember i got to go on a tour of the Todaro when it was brand new a few years ago, surprisingly pretty comfortable inside
The 18 days submerged passage record was set by S527 Scire sub on the way to a 5-month deployment for exercises with the US Navy , it was set crossing the Atlantic from Ponta Delgada in the Azore to the American coast. during the same deployment for the first time, the sub was put at the head of the battle group, this role is performed by nuclear-powered submarines, I do not know the length of time that it performed the task but it does indicate that the sub has higher capabilities than disclosed until now.
👍👍
My absolute favorite submarine, thanks for covering it
Interesting on the hydrogen and oxygen tanks. In rockets the hydrogen section of a fuel tank is much larger than the O2 tank. Think its a density thing with hydrogen.
its also a sub they go deep and pressure changes, compresses the oxygen witch is also extremely cold.
Correct. Liquid hydrogen has twice the explosive power of gasoline by weight, but only 25% by volume. That's because a molecule of hydrogen takes up the same space as a molecule of gasoline in spite of being much lighter. But a molecule of hydrogen has only two hydrogen atoms, whereas a molecule of octane has eighteen.
They are storing the Hydrogen as Metal-hydrate, not as a gas under pressure. I think I read somewhere that it's supposedly Palladiumhydrate, but I can't confirm that. The Oxygen is stored as a compressed gas.
@@JainZar1 Several methods for compacting the hydrogen have been tried. But all involve considerable industrial processing and are far more complicated and energy-intense than pouring a liquid.
@@shane99ca You do realize, that keeping hydrogen at cryogenic temperatures for months requires either a) insane amounts of insulation or b) large amounts of energy to refrigerate the hydrogen using helium as refrigerant. Also, due to the constant evaporation in a line that goes into the water, the system would be a huge noise offender.
Utilizing Metal-hydrates, you can store Hydrogen pretty efficiently by just increasing or decreasing pressure inside the storage tanks without any noise.
And the process for hydrogen liquefaction is pretty much the end-all be all in terms of refrigeration, only Helium is harder to liquefy and you do both by evaporation cooling. Liquid Helium is used in Microwave sensors that need to get down to 4K for example.
Big fan and a subscriber. Love the videos and the format, in particular the sincerity of the presentation. Not a fashion show for the host or amateur night at the comedy club wannabes! Thank you.
Greetings from Germany, you forgot to mention the nice pictures we take of your CVN using these boats ;-)
Next time!
@@SubBrief
And you will probably fin that the first such picture was taken by ITS Todaro in 2008 from 7,000 yards.
@@antoniopirisi6061 not quite: the first one was the U24 (a class 206 boat) on the JTFEX 01-2 maneuver in 2001. Shooting a nice picture of the enterprise through the priscope while simulating a torpedo attack on the carrier. After that it surfaced beside the carrier.
Surface to air missile on a sub is absolutely a game changer. If it works as well as they claim.
Ehhhh. It sounds good but I'm dubious that any captain worth his bars would give away his position by using that. Stealth isnt just their greatest asset it's also their best defense. If you're detected best to evade and clear.
@@navyreviewer You can always take several MANPADS in the event of an extreme emergency.
@@navyreviewer if possible, sure. But that can be real difficult in the narrow and flat Baltic sea.
@@navyreviewer there were already several tests as early as 2008, where the system was tested and it performed like it should.
if you are in littoral operations like the baltic and close to the shores in the north sea, you cant just go for depth or evade, as the water is often less than 70m deep.
the baltic sea is a puddle, the north sea is for large stretches very shallow and some areas are only acessible with small boats for a few hours a day, due to tides (around the coast of germany, the netherlands, france and britain for 8 hours a day the water just vanishes for sometimes dozens of kilometers.
if you are caught in these waters by an anti submarine plane/helicopter you are a sitting duck
@@navyreviewer the ability to shoot down anti-submarine aircraft is very important, for a shallow water submarine. and being able to launch them, while submerged, is crazy. also, the real interesting bit, is that it's a (fiber optic) wire guided model, which means you can do some interesting stuff with that missile. could even be useful to cause an aircraft to panic, which that alone is useful, breaking off attack runs, or searches to evade.
there is also the ability to "go offensive" with the missiles, opening up a new mission profile for the sub, say, if intel discovered that an enemy ranking officer is moving up close to the front, you could shoot down their plane or helo, with a range of 12 kilometers. short ranged compared to cruise missile missions, but the baltic is so tight...
anti-submaine aircraft are quite vulnerable to this kind of attack (esp as with a wire guided system, you could technically manually guide the missile (with visual and or IR or even radar sensors) like a wire guided anti-tank weapon (which requires skill and practice, but is harder to fake out in theory with normal countermeasures). hell, with a change out of warhead, you could basically be shooting Hellfire missiles from a submarine just off the coast. once you get the tech down where you are firing missiles without capsules from submerged state... all sorts of possibilities.
Thanks, great video! Had a good laugh at the ice cream maker!! :D
that motor system is incredible
"Why are there six levers if there are only 4 directions?"
-Griff driving this boat, probably
There are 4 levers - one for each plane - and some rather complicated gauges in the emergency control stand. Normally, the boat is driven by someone with a mouse and keyboard (a wee bite like WASD mechanics).
@@floriantolk4920 It was a reference for the machinima series "Red vs. Blue" by Rooster Teeth. @OP Here have an upvote.
@@Llyd_ApDicta Ahh. Thanks for making me aware!
thanks for the nice video. if you do a follow up (212cd or something) you might want to
mention the differences in cms (atlas, kongsberg) and maybe the size limitations (diving kadetrinne being a reason) or maybe the hull shape or the x rudder. keep up the good work!
Great suggestion!
There is a great documentary about U-31 traveling to a joint exercise through a massive storm. Sadly it is only in German, yet it has amazing scenes.
It's a great documentary and the automated subtitles aren't that bad. I really recommend watching it.
Learning German is not so hard = "Deutsch lernen ist nicht so hart"
@@minimax9452 *looking at the compound words*
Okay, it's just English's cousin. Shouldn't be that hard, they're all related, just a few times removed.
@@Joshua_N-A It should be easy for an english speaker to learn german. English is a germanic language the linguists say ;-)
@@minimax9452 compared to Russian, Arabic or Chinese its actually rather easy to learn... for an English speaker ...
@Sub Brief
At 3:10 - COTS actually means Commercial off-the-shelf
If I saw correctly they're crazy enough to use Windows as the operating system lol.
@@dingdong2103 imagine getting the cascading window error from xp while diving
Thank you Captain for doing this! As interesting with incredible stuff to learn as always. Stay safe and healthy. 🍀
This channell is like Tom Clancy was back, alive and 25 yo again while having all that knowledge and experience. Amazing content.
Clancy praised the German subs in his book "Submarine".
@@EK-gr9gd and?
@@thomasputko1080 and what? His later non-fictional books were accused of being too "focused" on the US forces. In the short summary on the other sub building nations he just gave facts, no belittling or anything disrespectful.
Not just the interior equipment is modular, to a degree the hull too is modular. Theoretically you can insert new sections into the hull. Like the USN did with the George Washington Class SSBN, just by design.
Quick comment on this excellent video: Germany has not been under treaty obligations in respect to its weapons arsenal since 1990, when the Two Plus Four Agreement ("Schützenpanzer Marder") was signed, right before reunification. Germany is a member of NPT and CWC (amongst others) though, of course.
The 2+4 treaty does forbid Germnay from having its own nukes, though.
Thus its Tornados are carrying American nukes.
And what does the Marder have to do with anything? The Marder II was killed by the peace dividend, not any treaty or even political limitations ...
@@positroll7870 AFAIK the German government's will to refrain from aquiring nukes was a sself voluntary descision signed in an extra agreement and is not part of the basic 2+4 treaties, but I may be wrong here
@@phil3114
Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany September 12, 1990
ARTICLE 3 (1) The Governments of the Federal Republic of Germany and the German Democratic Republic reaffirm their renunciation of the manufacture and possession of and control over nuclear, biological and chemical weapons. They declare that the united Germany, too, will abide by these commitments. In particular, rights and obligations arising from the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons of 1 July 1968 will continue to apply to the united Germany.
Mediterranean is not shallow. The average depth of Mediterranean is 1,500m, that's well beyond the diving capabilities of any submarine.
The average depth of the North Sea is 95m, and of the baltic is just 50m.
Has very long coastal line and cyrstal clear waters
@@XIIItan Who doubt it? But it's not shallow.
Did I say the Med was shallow?
@@SubBrief Thanks for the likes. Yes, at 2:31 ;)
That's just the average (arithmetic mean). What's the median, modal value, variance and standard deviation? Just as an example: If 90% is 50m deep and 10% is 5000m deep, the average depth is 545m. However you would be foolish to design a submarine optimized for that average depth when in reality most of the time you only have 50m. Another example: There are nine vegetable farmers and one pig farmer. The pig farmer has 10 pigs, so on average every farmer has one pig. Good luck trying to get your average bacon from one of the vegetable farmers ...
Interesting, listening to what the torpedos hear we did in the eighties in sweden: And this was on our FAC class surface ships. I am suprised about not every navy doing this already.
It doesn't surprise me if there are probes that is capable of active and passive including the possibility to transmit the sound of a submarine as a decoy.
Germany, some previous experience in sub construction.
only a bit...
😁😁😁😁 I know that type of Sub. Seen it the exact way it is displayed in the picture. Greetings from Kiel - btw: they are called German Naval Yards (formerly known as HDW).
I can assure you they ARE piston operated, in fact you'd be surprised by how much has backup hydraulics!
I heard from a knowing source that I'm not allowed to expose that theorethically you could operate this sub by hydraulics for quite a while when power goes out, it's meant to be a security measure, but indeed it could be used to cheese it and hypothetically be even more sneaky about doing things.
As for the piston thing: Big chamber little piston movement, loads of pressurised water/volume, smaller torpedo tube means more velocity for ejection with constant volume, again simple hydraulics.
PS: There is a documentary about the sub doing that long mission and they indeed have cradles, althought the after mission beer is stored in an empty torp tube to passively stay cool ;)
Looking forward to the AIP content!
This summer i Will go on the older parents of the type 212 as we know them in Italy Todaro class Will Explore a Sauro class diesel boat
i am guessing you are going to genova then, if yes i have visited that submarine myself in the past , amazing boat and wonderful experience
@@roccaraso1771 how loud is it?
@@mtumeumrani376 never heard it running, i went into the one that was turned into a museum, altough i have to say (expectable of a sub) its not that big of a ship, at least on the inside. altough it was the first sub i ever visited
@@roccaraso1771 i never heard of a modern submarine turned into a museum.
Here in the U.S, the Navy occasionally lets the public tour active surface ships for recruiting/pr purposes. I've visited two active Navy ships growing up: USS Caron and possibly USS Chosin when they had visited CT in the late 90s and early 2000s.
People would travel the world to see the inside of a Typhoon or Kirov.
@@mtumeumrani376 i definitely would travel half the world to see a Typhoon :D
You mandate the use of, and there by the testing of, the battle lanterns for all Tube inspections, two birds with one stone, though only a few seconds saved, the crew becomes comfortable with the battle lanterns.
The NFS variant will make this submarine even more capable
Is there a NSFW variant? ;-)
Hey the /k/ommando store, cool to see they're still going.
I lived in Kiel, it was interesstint to See how they build These submarines, every das a little bit more and more
True and if you get lucky, you get to see when they test them😁
Happy Independence Day to you, sir.
Nice, good to see you again!
Wonder if they've experimented with VR goggles for periscope usage. Seems... more efficient. Not having to get up, taking up space in center of control room when not in use as primary means of using periscope... then again redundancy would suck. How do ships compensate for towed detecting opposing ships towed arrays? Like.. the sonar contact would be coming from 100 meters towed behind the sub... or however far they spool the towed array out, right? How is that compensated for in targeting? Everything on the sub looked passive. Though maybe I'm wrong about that. The towed array is primarily to see behind their turbulence in water right? I really love these detailed class, overview videos.
I don't thin VR is a good idea. You don't get a stereoscopic image anyways and nothing beats your eyes in terms of reliability.
@@KP3droflxp Well, I'd assume it would be more advanced tech that available today. And make stereoscopic possible. It's not an impossibility as far as I know. But yeah, just random idea.
@@jonny-b4954 I think it definitely should be possible to get a stereoscopic view from the periscope. But why? The targets are too far away to perceive any depth so current periscopes just show the same image for both eyes.
@@KP3droflxp Ah, I had misread your previous comment.
I think this design with relatively small diameters and displacement, plus AIP and stealthiness, and superior weaponary can effectively give Type 212 the chance to overcome nearly any vessel out there, in underwater or surface. This is the peak of submarines, I wish we could see fully electrical, silent sub in the near future. SSNs and SSBNs could be absolute in any time with the introduction of these stealth subs. Neither massively thick Russian/Soviet subs nor the long hulled US subs with VLS are gonna win this fight. Stealth always should be the priority when it comes to ASW.
6:18 I wonder outer layer is mostly absorbent and some pressure resistance so that sound goes through it twice, being absorbed twice before it escapes after bouncing off the real pressure vessel.
I guess comfort wise the nuclear sub you worked on is lightyears ahead of these small boats. In ballistic missile subs, crew comfort is not bad I guess.
Well, hot bunking is sort of a tradition in the German Navy. ;)
@@GeorgHaeder The 688er reintroduced it into the USN.
I want one. Also so aesthetically pleasing
IDAS isn‘t in active service, it might enter service around 2024.
Testing can go longer than that before it finally enter service. Gotta iron out the bugs first.
@@Joshua_N-A testing has been going on for a decade, with life firings from German and Italian subs. Official Bundeswehr sources are planning on official introduction in 2023 and in service on the first subs in 2024, as part of the general refit cycle. Covid might add half a year or so to the time line.
I wonder if they managed to install the that Mauser 27mm deck gun as it was planed.
that was never planned.
@@comsubpac In Germany we say:" Sag niemals nie" "say never never" Kappa
@@klauskoerper2390 Die Aussage war aber, dass es nie geplant war was vollkommen korrekt ist. Natürlich kann es in Zukunft geplant werde, aber das ist erstens nicht zu erwarten und würde zweitens an der urpsprünglichen Aussage nichts ändern.
eine deck kanone würde die stealth eigenschaften ruiniern, also ich machs mal und sag: "Nie"
There was some preliminary planning wheter it was feasible to mount the Mauser RMK30 inside a pressure container attached to an extendable mast. But it was dropped for complexity reasons much because RMK30 is a recoilless autocannon that was designed for land/air use and would have required additional recertification and redesign for naval use.
In a way this was seen as a stop-gap measure if the development of IDAS would prove to be a total writeoff/failure.
Eher is a good video of a very stormy travel, of one of this boats in the channel of the north sea. Well it is in germany but the picture speaks for it self.
Auto translated subtitles work reasonably well. I'll add a link when I'm back at my computer...
@subbrief hi, great lecture thank you. Question about the passive ranging flank array. I can image how the angle of a noise can be obtained, but how about the distance? the only thing i could think of is that different kind of noises are cataloged into a kind of classification about how loud they are when they are emitted. When they are received the distance can be guessed according to how much noise they loose by 1 meter traveltime and the received volume? btw could reflections mess up the distance?
Former SIGINT guy here - this is all about the angle to the recorded source. As a vessel moves through the water, the bearing angle changes and after a few minutes you get several different lines of bearing that can be overlaid to produce an approximate fix. Water conditions will change that a bit based on many factors, but that's basically it. For us ground types, we'd have a series of intercept stations that could conduct Df operations. Get 3 or more fixes on an enemy transmitter? You've got a fire mission.
It's all just trigonometry
Wow I'm super impressed with that AA missile they've got. Way too often when I'm playing Cold Waters did I want something, ANYTHING to shoot back at those pesky planes.
epic mod -> surface -> enjoy :)
@@emperorSbraz the good thing about idas is that you don't have to surface to fire at the heli.
@@positroll7870 100% correct
Think of it, the sub is made for waters so shallow and places so narrow, it's not like they have any choice but to fight back if they want to survive, but they have to shoot first. If the ASW weapon is on the way, it's like fire and forget 👩🔧🇺🇲🛠️🇷🇺
This is a natural development of the diesel electric subs of ww2. Same ideas just with better technologies to achieve the same thing stealth, but with this generation of submarine technologies, Brilliant show.
The outer hull is metallic, but its not magnetic, for MAD would not get a reading and protection against magnetic fused mines. That's standard for German subs since Type 206.
PEM fuel cells don't tend to operate at high temperatures, at least not compared to solid oxide fuel cells.
Hi. Could you please tell me what are the operational advantages of PEM fuel cells when compared to Phosphoric Acid Fuel Cells?
(18:19) That's more for things like "Jonesy" did with seaman "Beaumont", with no need for a whale to be around. There are shore based simulators and before a tour the crew needs to pass some tests there.
Thanks to the fuel cell drive, it is one of the quietest submarines in the world. But I would like to emphasize that the German navy, like NATO, is only used for defense and control! Besides, a torpedo has a range up to 50 km. Hugs to all from Berlin, Germany, and keep up your detailed work!
Hopefully the German torpedoes will be for defense after the past two world wars 😉
@@NathanDudani
A torpedo's purpose is the same wether you are defending or offending, it;s role is to sink ships and submarines,
@@NathanDudani Don't worry - in the current political climate within the country Germany attacking any nation for whatever reason is not even half as likely as the U.S. becoming a socialist state.
Is a sub brief for the type 214 coming in the future?
The German MOD clearly had some surplus fiber optic cables, so they just attached them to everything. I bet there's also a submarine towing cable made of fiber optic.
Question: Is there any problem with the asymmetric arrangement of the torpedo tubes, are there any disadvantages/advantages) of such an arrangement?
No, not really. Weight is distributed even.
yeah, thats why internet for german citiziens is still in the stoneages.
all fiberoptic cables where needed elsewhere.
Why did they go from a 7 blade to a 6 blade screw? I would think that the seven blade screw would be more efficient.
Also the anti-torpedo cable they attached around the rear dive planes, were those attached to the old ones or the new ones? Because I've seen pictures of ones that don't have it.
Respect!
Very good technical instruction ....
It looks like they really have a clue.
One more:
There is a 'rumor' that one of these submarines is said to have cost a US admiral the post.
During an exercise as an 'enemy' it is said to have appeared suddenly and unnoticed next to a US carrier until then.
Do you know about this 'story' ?!
Submarines from most nations get inside carrier groups pretty consistently during exercises, so it's likely that an admiral lost his post over it.
Surface ships are at a pretty tremendous disadvantage against submarines because of their high noise and difficulty sensing below the layer.
@@WerepieI'm not sure I'd say it happens "consistently". The few examples I've heard of seemed to be rare enough to be reported in the news -- and in this particular incident, the admiral was said to have been furious about getting blindsided like that. Carrier groups feature sophisticated rings of escorts with ASW capabilities, after all. Then again, perhaps it is simply a case of hubris and too much trust in one's own invulnerability due to all that expensive high-tech surrounding the CV?
I believe the incident JeWi's comment was referring to is something that occurred in 2001, maybe it's just become more commonplace since then.
PEM - proton exchange membrane is used in hydrogen fuel cells. PEM - polymer electrolyte membrane is used in electrolysis.
Both terms are used in fuel cells. Polymer electrolyte membranes exchange protons...
(33:56) P-8 Poseidon, P-7 was a purposed successor of the P-3 Orion, by Lockheed, it never reached even prototype stadium. Cancelled in 1990.
Thyssen is not pronounced "Thigh-sen" it's more like "Tiss-en" altho the y sound is more like an umlaut so I know it can be hard for english speakers.
Greetings from Germany.
Or just TKMS.
In general his German pronounciasion was horrible. But considering the high quality of the video, and that he's American (which is in another world from German pronounciasion) it's unimportant.
That is not the only German or Italian mispronunciations. Irregardless His videos are excellent
Superb ✨
Hello Jive, I love all the content you put out, I work for [redacted] and just love all the information you share about other classes of subs and your own experiences. speaking of own experiences, with the UAPTF preliminary assessment released on June 25th, I thought of you and wondered if you ever heard anything USO related in all your time listening underwater.
Do you think that the US navy should consider putting diesel/electric subs to service in order both to maintain a big sub fleet and to use their advantageous characteristics for shallow water operations (Taiwan strait or the gulf for example)?
I dont, and the reason is range. US subs, mostly, have to sail from the US to the other side of the planet. Diesels can do it but nuke buys that long submerged patrol time.
Dont get me wrong I'm not knocking diesels. I do believe the US should making some for training and export (akin to the F-5 freedom fighter) but for us it doesnt fit into our strategy.
@@navyreviewer True, but what if thy were to be based at foreign bases? Yokosuka for example or souda bay in the mediterranean etc.
@@navyreviewer us subs have to be stationed in the US BECAUSE they are nuclear powered. If the US navy bought eg 6 u212cd-e for the north Atlantic and 6 for the med, it could easily station them in European ports. Freeing up some of its ssn for the pacific.
You gotta do a video on more submarine constructions. The beginning of this video with all those real cutouts visible was fascinating. Like something less about the history but more on the tech/building of the submarines past what a generic cutout shows. Either way great job almost to 100k subscribers
Two General questions: How much noise this sub is generating (in dB), How much is the quiete US Sub and Russia Sub. Overall, the hull design of an uboat, is there any potential in the form, or will in future all subs have the same hull design?
New German-Norwegian u212 CD project has a hexagonal hull for stealth purposes, defeating active sonar. Same for proposed u212 cd-e that the Dutch might be getting.
Well the noise is obviously classified, but it is almost certainly quieter than the currently operating nuclear subs.
@@duffman5z Severodvinsk.
Krupp of Essen.
The newer, larger Dutch built version looks like the right replacement for Canada's Victorias.
Add those Japanese Lithium batteries.
Great work as always Captain! Are there any information about the combined fleet exercises with the US Navy and how the 212A performed? Thanks!
yes there are: in 2013 U32 "sunk" an us aircraft carrier during an excercise without getting detected, but also performed battlegroup defense, protecting the carrier from engaging surface and submerged vessels, the evaluation was, that 212A performed beyond expectations.
it happens quite often that "Diesel Electric Boats" like the modern Gotland Class or 212A but also 206A can infiltrate a carrier group and sink the carrier during excercises, as the carrier group makes a lot of noise and these boats can mask their approach with that, unlike a nuclear sub, wich is a bit louder than one of these.
that is also the reason, why us carrier groups do regular excercises with these boats, to increase their ability to detect and counter them.
@@zhufortheimpaler4041 Thanks for the Info! :) Do have any sources for me? It is quite frightening that a "cheap" diesel sub is such a huge threat to a complete carrier group. Thinking of defending Taiwan etc.
@@Blubber789 2001 JTFEX 01-02 U24 (206A Dieselsub) infiltrated Enterprises inner defense perimeter, fired a simulated torpedo spread and green Flares and surfaced next to Enterprise without being detected previously. a foto was taken priot to surfacing through the targeting periscope.
1997 at SUBEX97 in the carribean U26 several times passed a Los Angeles Class Nuclear Attack Sub in extremly close proximity without being detected during a combat simulation, the diesel sub had the objective to hunt the LA class during that excercise.
during the Falkland war, the San Luis, a 209 Diesel Sub closed to torpedo range with the british battle group and fired a spread of 8 guided torpedos at the invincible, only due to bad crew training nothing major happened. (incorrectly mounted cables on the torpedos)
the british on the other hand "wasted" about 100 anti uboat torpedos in return but also missed.
then the Gotland Class, wich had done comparable actions during multinational excercises with us carrier groups.
@@Blubber789 it helps knowing the general area where the carrier will be. Luckily, the pacific is rather big, and the Chinese subs are rather loud.
Also, a fully equipped and armed u212a comes in at around a billion dollars, so it's not that cheap...
@@zhufortheimpaler4041 Its quite an accomplishment, but what they did was basicly playing dead - no engines running at all. They knew where the carrier was going and as soon as the carrier past them they fired their simulated torpedoes. I dont think a carrier group would venture into the north sea / baltic sea in a full scale war against Russia. They would be sitting ducks. :)
29:40 Cool! The Italians shoot inflatable russian KA-50 Attack Helicopters out of their Torpedo Tubes! Thats a new aproach.
Does anyone know how many 212a subs a navy could put in service for the price of one Virginia class?
5 or 6
The official price tags says that one Virgina class costs $3,4 bn.
The German 212A officially costs $560 mn. HOWEVER, german warships usually do not include any ammunition, and in case of the Type 212A there were no spare parts at all included (which is the reason why nearly all boats had extensive yard times when damaged: there were simply no spare parts; so Germany bought spare part packages for another $300 mn per boat back in 2017[?]). So the complete price for a German 212A should be around $900 mn.
Germany bought its 6 Type 212A subs for the price of 1.5 Virginia class subs.
So the answer to your question is 4.
@@floriantolk4920 yeah, but that very much depends on numbers. If the US were to join up with Germany and the Dutch to build a dozen of the proposed u212cd-e (longer version of the CD) for the US (in addition to the 6 Dutch and maybe 3 German) the price for each ship could come down a LOT. The US would of course then add its own weapon systems...
@@positroll7870 Did the dutch government decide on whether to buy the 212CD? (I really don't know. I know that the dutch and german governments had a chat about a Walrus successor but the dutch postponed or something.)
Anyway, I don't know what the 212CD is gonna cost. I just know about the intents of the german government to buy 2 and of the norwegian government to buy 4 212CD boats.
And you're right, there would be some scaling mechanics. But I would be surprised if the german government approves the technological export to the US at this point. But since half of the German 212CD electronics and software will be prodcued by Atlas, I doubt that there is any problem for the dutch to have some boats.
But looking at what the US did to the FREMM program resp. Constellation class, they will just throw their electronics and sensors at it until it costs $1.5 bn apiece. (Very important: some of the decisions made when designing the 212 are just incompatible with how the US usually build their subs ... like the CSU90 is a cylindrical array, while the US usually deploy sphericals; the 212 is so small that "lengthening the hull some meters" will just not do it for the US, let alone that the additional size had to be propelled, which is in turn the reason for designing small subs; weapons arrangement and so forth.)
So that the US buys some "212-like" subs is certainly not impossible (I remember the US trying to buy HDW and TKMS several times in the past), but I guess that's rather unlikely to happen in the near future.
@Dodo Um, yes. I know. But the Dutch need new ones, have asked for offers and the U212 CD-E is in the mix, maybe the frontrunner.
@Sub Brief have you done a video about what off the shelf submarine could be a good fit for the Australian Navy's needs?
Last I read they were looking at a SAAB project to share with the Netherlands. Basically a Collins 2 class.
The "Aussies" rejected a 212 design, called Type 216. I bet they will swim to Kiel or Emden to test one of the 212 CD E class, and beg TKMS to tailor them such a boat.
Do they not make any effort to conceal screws anymore?
nope.
i suppose that they were dummy screws for presentational purposes, but who knows.
Those are not the real screws 😉
Just some screws put on for taking pictures. The real design is of course classified.
7:55 just no. That's not how atoms work. The size of the atom does not determine the amount of space it takes. First of, gaseous elements are usually diatomic (O2 and H2 in this case - but there is also an unusual thing with oxygen that it can be Ozone or O3 - that's irrelevant here) and when either gaseous or liquid, pure elements have the same volume under the same pressure and temparature. The weight is what is different. I rather suspect that oxygen is used for more than the propulsion, for example, breathing - so they need more. They actually need twice the hydrogen to oxygen per volume: 2x H2 + 1x O2 >> 2x H2O.
Oh, and if you dig a bit further, oxygen is even more compressible than hydrogen. So, that further settles that the oxygen - if there is truly more carried by volume - is used for something else.
The outside of the 212A's hull is not non-metallic. It is anti-magnetic steel. And first batch units of the type 212A ejected their special forces through the torpedo tubes. 2 weapons divers per tube.
Can known sources of varying biologics be used as an Active Sonar source? You know where moving or stationary things are by building up a picture like Astronomers use Interferometry? Sound version of a Light Echo?
The hydrogen is not used in a pressured liquid state but as hydrid, which is solid and stable at temperatures up to 300°C. Meaning there's no pressure tank for the hydrogen necessary. It can be stored like coal.
Can this technology be used commercially ?
@@nikosvithoulkas180 WAY too expensive.
@@nikosvithoulkas180 They intend to, but there's not enough magnesium for broad industrial applications. Maybe it'll be enough for the military (tanks etc).
@@the-quintessenz Thank you i will do my research on this technology
thats a cool small sub
I believe that Norway have 4 of these in order also, Although we the are called HDW-212 in the Norwegian military.
There's a coop between norway and germany - i think potentially poland - to build a bigger sub together that also suits the norwegen demand to guard a real costline and the german demand to support safety missions on trade routes.
@@keepingcalm6469 So stupid to deploy a submarine for escorting missions on trade routes. A Corvette/Frigate is much more capable in doing this sort of missions and you wouldnt waste money on a design you dont need.
@@Gentleman...Driver Escorting Alone is not the Mission - SigInt is.
@@keepingcalm6469 A Frigate would excel in this, too. Only thing a sub would be good for is if you dont want to get detected by a foreign power like Iran.
Norway is buying a version on this sub. Believe it or not, only 4 subs, and the country has the 4th largest coastline in the world..
Yes, they ordered the successor of the 212a Class. It's calles 212cd, cd standing for common design. So Norway and Germany are basically egnineering and building this new sub together and this help bonding both Navies and cutting costs.
So far ger is getting 2 of them. There are options for 4 more. But if the Dutch order the proposed cd-e, Germany might go for more of those instead, depending on needs.
@@positroll7870 A county like Norway has a much, much longer coastline compared to Germany og The Nederlands. Norway had 15 subs when the first cold war ended. With round 2 looming now, there is no reason to have lesser numbers.
@@hantykje3005 there is nothing to stop Norway or Germany from ordering more if the first batch works as planned. Same pattern for the original 212a. First batch ordered., tested and evaluated. Then ger bought a second batch.
Norway might also be watching if the Dutch order the cd-e and then order a few of those instead of a second batch. Use the smaller CD close to shore and the bigger cde out in the Atlantic or closer to Russia...
So I was thinking about torpedoes (as one does), and I’m curious, does a torpedo have a ballast system? Or does it only use the force on the control surfaces to control its place in the water column? Are they neutrally buoyant? Inquiring minds would like to know ;) love the vids
Hi, I work for Atlas Elektronik (part of TKMS) and we're the ones building the torpedoes, among other things, for this boat. The DM2A4 is simply packed to the brim with lithium batteries (these are fit in modules, as mentioned in the video) and is steered by sheer force. ;) I guess it's the same with other types.
3:30 The Swedish "Scotland class" submarine? XD
Id love to see more of a Video Format. The Information ist great and I love how u tall about it. But the Powerpoint is not my favorite. That beeing said, thanks for you great content!
Brilliant stuff as ever. Fascinating, thanks. Subtitles have changed your name to captain dive turkey haha! I spose they thought submarines, what else could it be?
@Sub Brief
Iirc in the News they said that U-35 struck an uncharted ( sure... o.O) underwater mountain and had to e-blow. No info on U-32s Battery issues, but at that time, the whole German Navy sub "fleet" was out of action (lack of funding). In the same time period, we had a serious SM2 hangfire accident on FFG Sachsen (Video on TH-cam, search: German Navy Frigate SACHSEN SM2 Missile Accident) which caused serious damage to the ship - luckily only two lightly injured.
Greets from Germany
You are confusing completely different times though.
Wait a second, for the idas you are telling me that that capsule that holds four missiles that stays in the sub while only one missile at a time can leave the submarine? I always assumed that the entire assembly goes to the surface and then they get up to four shots once the entire tube is on the surface
no, the "launching magazin tube" with the four IDAS stays in the torpedotube so all four missles could be lauched idenpendently and when empty (or the tube is needed for another task) it is restockt in the torpedomagazin by the autoloader
If it's true and IADS is based on IRIS-T then it's monster. "Extreme close-in agility allowing turns of 60 g at a rate of 60°/s via thrust vectoring" for example. As surface based version about at least 15km range ? Max speed mach3.
Honestly that is incredible hard to doge for a fighterjet and a deathsentence for anything bigger, slower and less agil then that. It also automatically targets weekpoints. I guess the weekpoint might be the cable but I don't know :P
@@timmteller871 The cable is only really needed to give the missile initial target information. It needs to know where to turn and look for a target when it comes out of the water. Basically it's comparable with the "lock-on after launch" capability. Normally you would transmit target information via radio, but radio doesn't really work under water so you need a cable.
@@shi01 good to know :)