Let me list all the Ws and Ls for both series at the top of my head if you're curious. Dragon Ball: Vegeta vs Shadow: W Goku vs Superman 1: L Goku vs Superman 2: L Kirby vs Majin Buu: L Hercule vs Dan: W 18 vs Captain Marvel: W Roshi vs Jiryah: W Beerus vs Galaxia: W Hulk vs Broly: W Goku Black vs Reverse Flash: L Thor vs Vegeta: L X. Trunks vs A. Silver: L Gogeta vs Vegeto: W/L Frieza vs Megatron: W Goku vs Superman 3: pending... Sonic: Mario vs Sonic 1: W Vegeta vs Shadow: L Eggman vs Wily: ? Luigi vs Tails: W Amy vs Remona: W DK vs Knuckles: L Shadow vs Mewtwo: L Metal vs Zero: L Mario vs Sonic 2: L Wally West vs A. Sonic: L Shadow vs Ryuko: W X. Trunks vs A. Silver: W Let me be clear, I don't give af about who wins, I just like characters from different series interact with each other
They are not. But if you compile inconsistencies, power scalers can say any nonsense. Sonic and Silver can be killed by motorbugs or thrown coconuts in new Sonic games. Super Sonic flying into some pbjects cause him to lose rings. Its possible to ignorr all of that to nitpick and say the characters are 5D. But thats false as Super Sonic cannot escape dimensions by himself like in Frontiers. He is not 5D. Hard enough robot attacks can hurt him.
@@sumnahlennon5449ah yes, yep, the same sonic that can be damage to rocks than be thrower from multiversal creatures, the same sonic than can resist a entire battle ship, yep, man please stop saying that, sonic is 5d and you can't say he isn't by just "oh sonic can die if he hit a coconut", sonic has a lot of resistent feats like resist erazor attacks in base, when erazor has absorbed to 1000 or even infinites universes of the 1001 nights
@@sumnahlennon5449GOOFY, bro you have to understand, that scaling power of video game characters consists of STORY BASED CONTENT. Not gameplay goofy, in the story rings don’t power super sonic, sonic in base has survived black wholes and falling into earths orbit multiple times, and even escaped the void infinite trapped him in, WITH HIS SPEED IN BASE.
@@sumnahlennon5449That’s like playing a dragonball game and pinning saiyan saga vegeta against fused zamasu and saying saiyan saga vegeta is stronger than zamasu because he beat him in game.
Even if Goku and Vegeta team up against Solaris, they would need Broly to actually defeat him. Past, Present and Future, all Solaris...Solarises? Solari! All of them need to be defeated at once.
@@emerald_a_op4400 With the Time Machine, you can only go to one time period at a time, along with the limited supply of power. As I said, Solaris needs to be defeated at the same time in the Past, Present AND the Future.
Goku himself would stomp the piss out of Solaris in base. The only problem would be that he can't defeat him in the past, present and future at the same time but even then he could just use the time machine to get to each version of Solaris.
It doesn't even take a TH-camr or powerscaler to prove that. Eggman himself said in 06 that Solaris is a super dimensional lifeform existing in every possible point in time to ever exists that also eats entire dimensions for lunch. That makes him omnipresent.
Finally someone who understands The End and Infinite's power! Btw, since Infinite out sped Sonic, wouldn't that mean that,now, they'd both have irrelevant speed?
In his first scene i used to think infinite simply placed a projection next to him that everyone could see it wasn’t really infinite but the phantom ruby that did most of the feats if not all of the feats that is what I think
@@dsm2417so can 2 sonics, 2 tails, 2 eggmen, knuckles, Amy, cream, Rogue, blaze, vector, espio, charmy, silver and shadow and classic metal Sonic (who is weaker than classic sonic)
For the actual character scaling I thought you were going to use Archie Sonic for a minute there. I never realized video game Sonic was actually that powerful
Yall really need to stop underestimating Modern Sonic, Archie Sonic isn't the end all be all. Heck, Modern Sonic is still growing in power and I wouldn't be surprised if he eventually surpasses Archie one day for obvious reasons.
@@sacredpower7530 We dont underestimate Modern Sonic buddy. Game Sonic still isnt close to Archie Sonic. Archie Sonic feats are way wanked like destroying multiple universes while fighting against knucles, holding entire multiverse in his fist, Super Sonic also in archie comics way stronger than game super
This video pandered to my kid self and teenage self with your analysis of Sonic and Dragon Ball respectively, and I loved it. After checking out your channel and seeing what videos you produce, I gotta say you must keep up this good work
I gotta disagree with Time Eater being low multi, he was going to destroy all of Space and Time. Ian says Time Eater is unbounded by the concepts of Space and Time, would this not make Time Eater way higher than low multiversal?
@@axiom6000 funny how you take what Ian says to heart once it supports ur argument, but suddenly whatever he says that supports Solaris > the end you disregard all of it
@@dino_mite8403 Bro, I took what Ian said to heart because it’s supported by the game. Solaris being the strongest villain isn’t supported by the game, and even Ian’s bosses do not agree with him. Ian was just giving his opinion, also Ian has said before that The End is the strongest.
@@axiom6000 Solaris being weaker than the end was never supported by the games, Ian's bosses have not claimed the end was the strongest and Ian has also said that the end is merely a planetary threat which is supported by the games as the end is compared to dark Gaia and was shown destroying the koko's home world
@@dino_mite8403 Yes it is lmao, The End says it’s superior to all of Sonics previous villains. Kishimoto the creator of Sonic Frontiers says The Titians are as strong as Sonics previous villains. And then Eitaro Toyoda says Infinite is the strongest villain(at the time of Sonic Forces) make it make sense why I would take Ian’s word over his bosses? Ian isn’t a god, he is bound by what SEGA/Sonic Team says, and higher ups in Sonic Team disagree with him. Ian is wrong when he says that too, we know this because The End wants to consume all. We also know that The End ITSELF SAYS THAT ITS THE STRONGEST THING SONIC HAS FACED! Meaning it’d HAVE to be stronger than planetary. Another problem with taken Ian Flynn as god is he contradicts himself, how can we fully trust what Ian says when he contradicts himself?
@@Sonic2024freedomera honestly as a sonic fan, Goku's feat were really ignored here, specially considering that heaven alone its atleast a 4D space without counting the rest of the cosmos+demon realm+mortal realm+kaioshin planet. I think that sonic would win but no way in hell it would be as easy as this guy thinks, Goku and vegeta could also ignore solaris and infinite with hakai. Hell, Ian flynn confirmed that solaris is still the highest tier villain on the franchise. And solaris cannot stack to "infinite times multiversal" or multi+ because it was slowly destroying and not instatly, theres even lefting space voids like the ones in which our protags are in.
He does. Goku in the DBS Manga does not absorb the power, but he trained with Whis and increased his power to SSG levels. While not shown in said manga, it is supplemented by the movie, the anime, and even the promotional Resurrection F manga Toyotaro made.
@@TakeshiInazuma the promotional manga was made years before super. Also, "yeah its not shown in the manga or any canon product of it and we never see it too. But trust me it is canon for appearing in other non-canon media!!!"
For me personally, I feel like you can argue goku and Vegeta being 5D once they surpassed Broly in power. But I don’t think that really changes much since speed is pretty much what they’re lacking.
@@axiom6000 well based off the scaling presented in the vid I don’t believe goku and vegeta can beat The end that’s stated to be infinitely above prior villains but besides that villain they should be able to beat the 3 first villains due to 5D scaling
This was a pretty awesome scaling for the 2 duo's, also the fact that at the end of the frontiers DLC fight, the end is not only able to damage super sonic giving scratch's and stuff, but he was also able to knock him unconscious, in unleashed he did get tired from fighting dark gaia, but i think that's a bit understandable since dadk gaia is the embodiment of darkness with negative energy, and super sonic is mostly powered by positive energy, but yeah again awesome scaling for the 2 duo's mainly the hedgehog duo for me personally
2:28 You can’t get from Low Multi to Multiversal with multipliers. Even if you can blow up…let’s say 2 entire space time continuums, if you double your power, you won’t be able to destroy 4 due to each additional universe being an entire infinite gap, and Multiversal would equate to 1000 separate space time continuums. The entire DB Macrocosm is 12 universes of about 3 universal to infinite 3-D sized space time continuums
@@youngfish1370 Without context, what you just describe is simply layered High 3-A since you didn’t say they’re separate space times. However with separate space times included, that’s 2-A+ or Multiversal plus scaling to infinite multiverses Not outer
@@jocoolshowit has several separate space times an example being the hyperbolic time chamber. Despite a few narrative flaws dbsh is a sequel to the dbs anime which connects the canon to the “non canon” making it canon. Be honest though don’t act like sonics writing has been above mediocre for the last 20 years. Going off of this the multiverse is stated to be infinite numerous times with infinite numbers of paths and inside of them along with several infinite structures inside of them. I’m getting tired of using the word infinite.
You’re forgetting the null realm which holds these universes. If it’s an infinite space that can hold multiple infinities it’s automatically multiversal. Anything that can hold the null realm would be complex/hyper.
@@theautisticbeaver4885 Hold up, sonics writing in terms of games has been dope. U said 20 years U do know unleashed, colors, lost world, Idw, and archie are included in that right?
Well not really sonics speed is faster than marios and it needs 1 powerup to destroy this fat ass Also the same towards movie Mario and sonic Sonic solos neg diff
So I do have some issue with the dragon ball speed scaling as inaccessible and immeasurable are inconsistent with other feats, like why do characters still use teleportation if their combat speed is beyond teleportation ya know? Also for the sonic speed scaling the fight was Sonic in the PResent, Shadow in the Past, and Silver in the future. That isn't a speed feat, the best speed feat for inaccessible speed is being able to move in sonic generations hub world as it is a realm without time. And the other immeasureable speed arguments are fine.
1.yeah,the dragon ball has alot of problems,even the ''inaccesible''speed one,considering: A.time still exist there,zeno didn't erase it B.literraly the hit thing is precognition or time resistance(the worst time resistance ever) 2.Even so, they manage to dodge attacks from Solaris, and Solaris attacks at all times because it is omnipresent, and immeasurable speed has more to do with going beyond linear time, and not with being temporally omnipresent. 3.It also has no space, since time eater erases space and time, so it would be immeasurable speed anyway
Rudo I can prob help with that. 1. I assume this is in relation to future zeno erasing a timeline, yes time is still there as evidenced by the time machine (Also hit has timeskip so Goku forced himself into the future if u take it literal, I take it like diavolo's Time erase tbf) 2. Solaris is temporal omnipresent and immeasurable I doubt as if we go by vsbattles "Immeasurable (Movement unbound from the flow of linear time, which cannot be measured. Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined, the speed formula cannot be applied.) Solaris only exists in those three states so omnipresent technically, immeasurable no. 3. Time eater is actually correct and this video should've swapped solaris with it since solaris has no answer to it
True that's why I don't scale teleportation as any speed feat since basically we could say that each teleportation user could easily warp faster than time and space The chaos emerald have a history each have a universe basically in them making sonic 7x universal or multi how you can argue
@@iphone5s659definitely not base sonic if you mean game sonic, he would win as super sonic, or maybe super sonic 2 if people wanna argue gokus bullshit stuff
@Archie.Phantom naw mate, I like the guy but no. He might have beaten perfect chaos in base, but like there’s a lot of dragon ball characters millions of times stronger than him, and considering it took sonic like 6 games to reach his adventure super level of power in base, he ain’t millions of times stronger. He gonna need to go super sonic. Just like accept it and bang, goku still HEAVILY dies but sonic isn’t the jesus of powerscaling
Personally I do think Goku and Vegeta could get past Solaris due to the use of Hakai, which is supposed to erase you from existence, even across timelines. The only reason this failed to kill Goku Black when present day Zamasu died was because of his time ring protecting him from changes to his personal timeline. So a combined hakai from both Vegeta and Goku could likely do the trick. However they still have a problem when it comes to fighting Infinite. One aspect of Infinite that wasn't mentioned in this video is that out of Shadow's own mouth, the copies of other characters Infinite creates are equal in strength to the originals. Its a bit awkward since Shadow says this line after one shotting his own copy, meaning Shadow is strong enough to one shot himself. Anyways, just Imagine if Infinite made multiple copies of Goku and Vegeta. A whole Army of them.
If characters like beerus can eliminate everything with the hakai, why did they fear zeno and the grand priest? Ma'man you are taking the hakai too literal, goku can only eliminate characters that are less powerful than him
@@matitheanimator I'm not being too literal. Goku Black out of his own mouth mentioned that the time ring protected him. Anyways you're completely misunderstanding why I even mention Hakai. You see Solaris has to be defeated in the past, present and future simultaneously for him to actually be put down for good. This is why it took Sonic, Silver and Shadow combined. But with Goku and Vegeta, there's only two of them. This is why I said they need to do it combined. With both characters scaling to multiversal, a combined Hakai would make up the difference. I'm not labeling Hakai as some instant win button, I'm saying it's literally their only option.
Solaris is an immortal god. It's indirectly stated in DBS that the Hakai technique doesn't work on immortals, and Whis proposes to seal Zamasu, not destroying him. Besides, the Hakai technique doesn't work on beings that are stronger than you anyways. So I feel it is 100% possible that Goku and Vegeta fall to Solaris, even with their combined Hakai.
Sorry but strongly disagree with you. You ignore that fact silver is in the sonic forces which means sonic failed to defeat infinite and Silver made huge difference by damaging phantom ruby. In Solaris, you didn't include the fact silver was there in his super form. You didn't talk about goku and vegeta could use fusion when they are desperate. Finally Sonic superform is heavily flawed which knuckles demonstrates this by not only knocking his superform, but stealing chaos emeralds as well. Heck since master emeralds can be broken, so can chaos emeralds as well. So sonic and Shadow would failed against broly by knocking out his super form while goku and vegeta would be able to defeat infinite by damaging his phantom ruby, Solaris by fusion and breaking law of physics. There more I can say but people must likely not going to bother reading this far.
First off, sonic got stronger at the end of the game and beat infinite which renders that argument as invalidated Next he literally said that each hedgehog had to beat Solaris in all 3 timelines, respectively Next this is flawed for the same reason your first point is, that was kid sonic way back when, at a time he was *MUCH* weaker, he got way stronger later on Finally you're making up a very vague scenario here.
13:51 in my opinion this statement is more a narrative statement rather than a powerscaling one. I believe The End believes itself to be the very concept of entropy due to its arrogance
The super hedgehogs don't scale to Solaris. Before I get into this I want to say I don't think it taking Silver, Sonic, and Shadow meant much. All are implied to be relative in their super forms and if one of them could exist in the past, present, and future just like Solaris you would really only need 1. With that out of the way I'll get into why I personally don't think the super hedgehogs scale to Solaris. Eggman himself thought it was impossible to destroy a super dimensional being. The team said they can't destroy its form, they had to mind rape Solaris. "Even if we can't stop his form, we can stop his consciousness!". To put the nail in the coffin Elise asks Sonic if we destroyed Solaris and he blatantly replies with No. Only way that makes sense is if he didn't beat Solaris or he was referring to him needing help from Silver and Shadow which I think we can both agree is not what was being implied. Still it can be used to give Team Sonic some good telepathy if you assume Solaris also has godlike mind resistance (Which is pretty unlikely given that they couldnt hurt his form and went to hurt his mind; wouldnt make sense if his mind is relative to his form) I do think the Time Eater point is valid to give the *Super Form* immeasurable speed. All though it's pretty clear Sonic wasn't doing that. Tails says they are travelling through time and space which means Sonic wasn't travelling outside time. "When that thing goes through time (referring to time eater)) it tears space apart leaving the areas empty and dead, and sticking them in this weird white limbo! When the sonic's *accelerate through time* they fix space, returning color and life!". Base Sonic in Generations probably doesn't scale to Perfect Chaos, he just found a new way to access it's weak spot (I.E, boost). Theres really nothing to assume Sonic in Adventure couldn't hurt Perfect Chaos, it's just that he couldn't get to it, his Super form allowed him to and now boosting allows him to. Eggman referring to Infinite as an "unstoppable creation" is very clearly hyperbole given... it's from Eggman, he always says his latest creation is his strongest and will be the one to defeat Sonic. As for the titans being stronger or as strong as beings like Solaris, just no. They are saying imagine if the first boss in Frontiers is as strong as the previous from a *gameplay standpoint*. As in, Sonic has to turn Super to defeat them. Without that and with Ian Flynn saying the end is cocky and arrogant it's pretty clear The End's scaling is hit or miss (Especially when you consider the titans can scale to weaker final bosses using that logic). Solaris wasn't susceptible to the Super Hedgehogs attacks as I already established. Solaris is still the strongest villain in Sonic. He probably does beat Goku and Vegeta but Sonic and Shadow probably stop somewhere at around Fat Buu with speed carrying them to this point.
1.The reason not to destroy Solaris is because he is immortal, literally Iblis can constantly resurrect no matter how much you kill him, do people forget that Solaris is still part Iblis? and there is nothing that says that his mind is weaker than the rest of his body, because literally apart from the fact that it is the only way to defeat him definitively (ignoring the flame of solaris of course) the thing resists many blows from the super forms Something that not even the armor could resist, and I don't have to explain why the armor should scale to the power of Solaris because it would be very obvious. and no,for scaling you don't need to beat a character,actually beating a character makes you upscale,what makes you scale is the fact that you have affected the character,significantly enough,and like you see in the fight,yeah,they pretty much affect solaris,they break his armor,block his attacks and They return them (silver) and even damage their consciousness, which resists much more than their own armor. 2.It doesn't matter if it is inside or outside of time (besides, in reality there is no time, even Eggman himself mentions it, so what tails actually refers to erased time, not time itself) is immeasurable, immeasurable speed It has to do with moving beyond linear time, and literally traveling through time and space is going beyond linear time. 3.boosting only makes him faster, not stronger, plus the ''weak'' point of chaos is not infinitely weaker,it is just the hit spot of chaos,and remind you,chaos is a being made out of water,so you cannot tecnically hit him and damage him like you will normally do, and even with that, his brain is still able to rebuild itself from chaos by turning into water or being spread into water, so technically it is not the weakest point of chaos, it is rather the point where it is possible to harm him and no, it is not really, considering that eggman is the most intelligent character in his franchise (tails included) but if they make mistakes it is because they are not capable of making mistakes, but making mistakes does not automatically mean that you do not have reasons sometimes. 4.Ian Flynn can sometimes contradict himself with what he says, sometimes he doesn't even remember certain things in the lore. and we must keep in mind that the titans are capable of fighting a super sonic that is far beyond the capabilities of a super sonic in his adventure era (2006 rather) so obviously yes, the super sonic The fight against Solaris is far behind. Besides the fact that Sonic needed a power up to defeat The End, something that no villain ever needed, which clearly puts The End above and a lot more than Solaris, Solaris can be temporarily omnipresent and all that, but in power he falls short.
Sonic's powerscaling is kinda insane I mean I am a Sonic fan and I still think it's insane Considering that base Sonic should now be stronger then even Solaris My little spiky man solos
I dont like power scalers because *writer's intent* gets ignored. Sonic isn't bullet proof, and he can die from a small robot. If Super Sonic gets hurt after flying into an earth rock, he would be scaled closer to Powerpuff Girls. These are inconsistencies, so think of writer's intent. Sega doesnt INTENT Sonic to be as strong as these nonsense fan theories.
Bro it’s game mechanics you talking about like seriously this is one of the worst debunking I have seen with sonic think about it would the game be fun if sonic just ran faster than time and destroyed all of egg man’s bots so fast you couldn’t even see it? I think not lmao bro stop being in denial and accept your monkey gets clapped by a blue hedgehog 🙊😂
I heavily disagree that the Daizenshuu and guide book statements surrounding DBZ aren't consistent enough. The statements surrounding the Dragon Ball cosmology were made by Toriyama himself and have never been directly contradicted by any other statements made by the writers or anything in the series itself. Even the Daizenshuu alone has many statements that directly say that the Dragon Ball universe is infinite in size with multiple universe sized realms and constructs that make up the macrocosm of universe 7. I don't know about you but that seems consistent enough to me. None of the statements are "inconsistent" at all since they only add upon each other. And even if this wasn't the case, Goku still has many feats in both the anime and manga that put him past 4D at a lowball when you scale him correctly.
I hate to say this, but didnt toriyama claim that the universe was four galaxies, then four super clusters, then all of the sudden the amount of stars and galaxies are innumerable? I wouldnt call this consistent, let alone trust him with a greater cosmology that he doesn't even need
I really liked this video great job. DBZ and Sonic are really fun to scale and battle against. You did a very good job not down playing either verse (imo)
4:57 well im so glad they are finally giving shadow the love he deserves and his own original powers , doom powers . Poetically similar to how Vegeta went and got his own power ups instead of ultra instinct
Highly disagree with Infinite being stronger than the Time Eater as the Time Eater wasn’t created by Eggman with it being explicitly stated that he found the creature in space after the events of Sonic Colours. So Infinite wouldn’t upscale from that on terms of being a “stronger” creation since he never made it in the first place. Also the Phantom Ruby that Infinite uses was a copy version thus doesn’t scale directly to any statement made to the original. Soooo Time Eater > Infinite. The rest of it I can take or leave it.
Infinite's phantom ruby is a finalize prototype of the original PR. The only difference is that Infinite's PR needs to recharge while the original doesn't.
Saying Goku isn't even 5D is a pretty dumb take ngl especially since universe 7 is comprised of at the very least 8 different space-times (possibly even more if you count the realms in between dimensions like the void and Suguroku Space) with a good portion of them transcending space and time, the afterlife alone is stated multiple times in not only the guides but by the teams who worked on DB to be a higher dimensional realm over the mortal universe and that it transcends all of space and time and the totality of dimensionality which at bare minimum places it at 5D. It was also stated in the guides and V Jump magazines for BOG that Goku and Beerus's battle was "Super dimensional" and that even Beerus's power alone was "beyond dimensions", "super dimensional" on its own dosent mean much without proper context but the definition of the term usually just means "1+ dimensional" aka scaling 1 extra layer into dimensional power which means Goku in BOG can already be scaled to 6th dimensional levels of strength. There's also the fact that Infinite Zamasu (in the anime) engulfed all of Future Trunk's timeline and fused with the entirety of universe 7 (which is a multiversal sized realm) and grew so much to the point where his power seeped into multiple other timelines such as the present, this alone makes Infinite Zamasu 5D at bare minimum and Goku was confident he could have stopped him with a single Senzu Bean. Jiren also surpasses this version of Zamasu in his base form and is so powerful he can shake the entire World of Void just by walking which at bare minimum is a 5D construct because it transcends space and time, Goku later replicates this feat in UI just by powering up as well. There are many more arguments to be used but I'll disregard those for the sake of this comment not being too long. Overall there are many ways you can scale Goku to 6D+ levels of power and higher even at the start of super which I feel were kinda disregarded throughout most of this video.
@@Goji-C if this was Kratos or some other character you'd be using every single statement and feat to prove your scaling lmfao. You're downplaying Dragon Ball to fit your own agenda
Alright, Koyama statements aren't valid, they never were valid, and ya'll need to let it go, the word koyama uses to describe heaven and hell is "transcendental" which for some reason means to you guys that it's "transcendent" ot higher dimensional, which isn't true as transcendental is a world only used to describe the afterlife life or a spiritual experience, the best you can scale each universe are limited versions of 4d, that's all.
I would disagree with the assumption that each Titan from frontiers are all Solaris level characters. Because super sonic shadow and silver had to team up to take Solaris down together all at once. And only super sonic fought each titan.
You know that Solaris exit in past, present and future and for to defeat Solaris they must defeat him in past, present and future at same time that means shadow fight past Solaris, sonic fight present Solaris and silver fight future Solaris each of them fight one Solaris and end read sonic mind and said all sonic past fight and opponent were weak and sonic need power up to defeat end and even Solaris only need super and the titan's we're at the same level of sonic past opponent's and infinite was really stronger than Solaris because phantom ruby was stated that is even stronger than master emerald and master emerald can destroy the power of chaos emerald's the same emerald's that help sonic to defeat Solaris and time eater
Goku and Vegeta are powerful but they will be stopped by the Time Eater. The Time Eater was going to destroy all of Sonic’s cosmology which is high into 7D. Dragon Ball’s cosmology isn’t that big (5D) compared to Sonic’s. Sonic and Shadow would beat the verse since they both are comparable to each other and scale to their big feats, fought and defeated Solaris and Time Eater (two powerful deities that were going to destroy the cosmology which included Sonic’s Multiverse, Maginaryworld, and White Space.)
@@porobotboyxxx In part yes, maginaryworld is part of the space-time of the entire multiverse, being that in itself, it is a reality that is part of the multiverse (even so it contains all the dreams of the multiverse)
@@Sonic2024freedomera Sonic Team needs to make Cosmology map of Sonic’s Multiverse already. Cause I thought Maginaryworld would be above the Sonic Multiverse, similar to that of DC’s multiverse map. Hence why I questioned if the Time Eater could threaten Maginaryworld.
Solaris and Dark Gaia can harm Super Sonic by throwing earth rocks. In Sonic Unleashed, Super Sonic flying and crashing into an earth rock causes him to die or lose rings. Stop making up stuff about Super Sonic's durability that not even Sega believes
Solaris one doesn't make sense tho. Like isn't he supposed to be omnipresent plus he also exist in present, past and the future so you need to attack him from three different timelines to defeat him. I mean yeah strength wise super sonic (frontiers) or super sonic 2 or infinite or even supreme might be stronger than solaris but in order to defeat him they need to attack him for three different timelines at the same time.
It does make sense, you explained it yourself. Infinite and The End possibly are stronger than Solaris, but his omnipresence is what makes him harder to defeat than the other two
Solaris just has more survivability if It makes sense,he is waaay more Difficult to Kill,but he is weaker Than those two, Perfect Example? Zamasu VS Moro,or Gas
I wonder though, what about Moro? Sure, he may be weaker, but he can also absorb their power and drain them quickly. Given the speed similarities, if he plays it smart couldn't he possibly win via that? (Also cant he eat and absorb powers? Idk if that was just a 73 thing but like, if he did that to shadow then sheeesh)
Yeah,Moro would be a problem if they play too much,but the only Way they get 100% Screwed is if they start on their Super forms and then just....don't do shit,play too much and allow him to absorb their Power
@@getlllz3438 stupid to do what? I'm talking about Moro being smart and avoiding them as he drains them knowing his innitial strength disadvantage, i.e he plays defensively whilst they play offensively
Give sonic and shadow the max ring count and they can beat Moro (I'm joking... Or am I? It's canon that tails questions where sonic keeps all his rings)
Honestly i have cause for believe that dark gaia upscaled time eater, solaris, and infinite, but not the end During the tails cutscene in frontiers where we see the end attack the ancients, tails says "that thing is stronger than dark gaia, Easily" Note the fox with an iq of 300 (for those that wanna say "nuh uh") doesnt say the end is stronger than the time eater or infinite (solaris is still pseudo non canon so he gets a pass), he says its stronger than dark gaia, which first of all would throw the prior power scaling out the window, but second showing our eldritch baddie is a force to be reconned with.......still, wouldnt change anything since sonic clapped the end regardless, just thought id throw that out there
Regular Super Sonic was able to damage Solaris & Time Eater but couldn't damage The End until he became Super Sonic 2, That should tell you something at least.
@@ef-jkota3611 it wasn't mentioned at all that The End could "nullify chaos energy" Instead, It said that Super Sonic "awakened his hidden powers" or in other words, he got stronger. I think you were trying to talk about that time when It launched a huge attack that returned Super Sonic 2 back to base. but if you noticed, Sonic was losing rings because of that attack. Losing rings has always been an indication that Sonic is taking damage. In other words, The End was strong enough to damage Super Sonic 2, basically a strength thing. not "nullify his chaos energy".
@@ZeZoIsBored It diidnt have to be mentioned, it’s literally shown through out the game, when he arrives on the second island there is a laser from the end that takes out super sonic, second island same thing The third island either sonic willing detransforms from super because he thinks it’s safe, or he detransformed from the exhaustion that the corruption is putting on his body.
Since Solaris is Super/Hyper Dimensional being at least 5D+ and when Solaris went into his second Phase he went a dimensional tier higher( So Sonic, Shadow, and Silver couldn’t do any damage to his physical body) they needed to attack his consciousness which at least gives them 6D mental AP and if we go by those statements the End(at least in it’s Weakened state should at least 7D+ could be higher in its full strength and The End stated the Machines and Gods Sonic as fought is finite and the End its Infinite basically calling them weak compared to it
Saying Goku doesn't even scale to 5D is fucking bonkers. The cosmology and mortal universe scales to beyond 4D. The afterlife is a higher dimension so 4D to 5D depending on if you take time as the 4th dimension. The entire macrocosm + kaioshin realm would all be around 5D all the universal constructs in universe 7 are infinite in size with different levels of infinity but Goku doesn't have infinite power. Meaning his power simply surpasses it in dimensionality. The 6D finite power is superior to 5D infinity. Hence how and why he can handle a power that threatens the destruction of universe 7 as early as the start of super. Thus proving anime Goku scales beyond 6D and probably even higher. When you look at the facts Goku has scaled beyond Sonic ever since the beginning of super and the anime continuity isn't even the Canon version of dragon Ball (which scales much higher than the anime).
This video downplayed both DB’s cosmology and even Sonic’s cosmology. For Goku - As u pointed out the afterlife could be argued to be super-dimensional by the guidebook, but even if not, Goku and Vegeta have been super-dimensional since Broly according to Whis’ statement. As for Sonic and Shadow, they would still stomp because their cosmology is ridiculously. I’d go into detail but if u don’t want to read me ramble, Sonic vs the big three explains the absurd power gap of Sonic in Base and even Super Sonic. Basically, Sonic in Base is already 6D after the events of Forces, and with his Super form, he becomes broken by the time of Frontiers.
It all upscales from BOG so even if yyou want to say BoG goku is 4d somehow, there's no viable scaling or feats that would get him any higher than that, and I'll bring up the notable mentions Jiren being stronger than Beerus is contentious on its own. Considering Beerus is still way beyond goku and Vegeta in the manga, on top of the fact that the manga is much farther in, you can argue that the manga retroactively changes the context of the statement. Jiren surpassing hit has nothing to do with surpassing time. Taking Vados' statement at face value would also be disregarding context as Hit's abilities still revolve around his original time bubble technique, if Jiren is somehow special by besting Hit, then Goku should have gotten to that stage of power a long time ago Goku coming back to the timeline in itself is an outlier. Trunks opened the pod so that means he's somehow that strong, the time machine logically just shouldn't even be there and I doubt we're gonna argue about a 4D time machine that's no different from the one trunks took. It also disregards any statements harconing back to the saiyans needing oxygen, and its only really contradicted in filler. Not to mention that this would also deminish Jiren being above time as not only did Goku NEED to take the time machine back, that just makes Jiren seem like he just caught up - rather than already being again. Otherworld being a seperate dimension doesn't make it a higher dimension. Many characters can travel back and forth as they please even prior to the saiyan saga, and events in the mortal realm happen in real time compared to either otherworld or the kaioshin realm. They're merely different dimensions, none of them are explicitly higher than the other. Kami has gone back and forth many times canonically, and yet he can't even hold onto the mafuba long enough to seal DKP, do you know how often weaker characters have sealed stronger beings with that move, especially in Super?? You can argue that BoG was also a chain reaction statement rather than pure power. If the destruction of the living universe would kill off the rest of the cosm, then that's no different from the sun's supernova being able to destroy the solar system. Also I have to add, if the traveling waves got stronger as they went out, then that cant be contributed to Goku or Beerus' power at that moment either, which is just MORE chain reactions
@@RetroMagnus761 Besides the fact that the anime made many implications of Beerus and Uni 11's GoD are similar in power, they've gone back and forth on this constantly and we'll have to see where the anime goes to actually confirm any of this And if you noticed, i brought up the manga multiple times for this
I have a huge recommendation if I can? Could I get a measure on Speedrun Mario, from Terminal Montage, versus a speedster of your choice? I don't think anyone has calculated Speed-Run mario at all and would love to see a video on it.
Exactly cuz there are soo many canon guides that scale Dragon Ball cosmology from 8D to outerversal. 1. The living world is stated to be infinite and has numerous realms with their own separate space-times so already 4D. 2. Living world is also stated consistently to have super dimensions with the kanji being "choujigen" which would make living world 5D. 3. The afterlife is stated to transcend The Living World and its dimensions metaphysically making other world 6D, but can also be scaled to outerversal since it is also stated to transcend the concept of space and time. 4. Zeno palace is most likely a higher Dimension since all the 12 universes are present as little orbs and the two zenos are shown in the manga playing them as chest pieces which would make his domain 7D. 5. Timelines are beyond everything that is listed above and there are infinite timelines with each single timeline having their own sets of 12 universes with an omni king ruling over them, so timelines or parallel worlds are 8D.
@@bruceShine777 you realize there’s a part in Z we’re old kai tells Goku to stop flying so fast cause he’ll end up time traveling to the future right? I can send the scene. Plus they use a Time Machine cause it’s literally easier and more convenient
@@bruceShine777 first of all don’t tell me about grammar lmfao grammar police gotta be the weirdest people. You guys care about how strangers on the internet type. Tf is that about??? Second of all, I already know someone was gonna say this. If it’s so exaggerated and debunkable than DO IT. Every time I ask y’all this, y’all either run off or make a lame excuse
but sonic can't reaccess the cyber form after update 3, the sonic wiki confirms it so using that against the dbs villains isn't really fair I'm not saying that's immediately gonna make sonic and shadow lose to dbs but still also didn't they only beat solaris because silver was also there, and they just used his weakness (blowing out the candle inside him with Elise's permission) to kill him? isn't that en exploit, and therefore not an exact strength feat used to beat solaris? (I haven't seen the ending to 06 in ages forgive me if I'm wrong)
Well no, they beat Solaris. The entire point with Solaris is that no matter what you do, he’ll come back. You can beat him, but he’ll come back. The only way to destroy Solaris for good is to blow out his flame, which will erase him from existence.
thanks for clarifying btw if that suggested otherwise, I don't think goku and vegeta would beat solaris also my personal takes are: - goku and vegeta could 1v1 infinite and win - goku and vegeta would need to 2v1 time eater to win, based on time eater's hax - goku and vegeta could individually beat the end from before update 3 on their own, but after update 3, they would need to work together to beat the end - goku and vegeta get negged by Solaris I also think sonic and shadow would lose to Moro, purely because of moros absorption and hax such as healing (sorry for the long comment)
@@ickle1790 The thing with solaris is that he needs 3 people to be defeated, one in the past and one in the present and one in the future to defeat his consciousness because he exists on all 3 of 'em at the same time, and THEN blow the fire with Elise to finally erase him.
@@ickle1790honestly,moro's only chance is if they start at Súper,and just Fuck around for Hours (yes,Hours) so that moro can absorb enough power to beat then,even then we have already seen that he can't absorb too MUCH power without getting Unstable
Ian flynn did say that Archie multiverse is the same as the game multiverse,but again,Ian Flynn doesn't know wth he is talking about sometimes so who knows
Bro you lowball goku and vegeta as they should be low complex multiversal because; 1. Living world has consistently been stated to have super dimensions which makes it 5D. 2. The afterlife transcends the mortal world and its dimensions metaphysically so 6D afterlife. 3. The afterlife can also be scaled to low outerversal since it is also stated to transcend the concept that is space and time.
Surfbone has debunked Outerversal Goku since the “Afterlife has no meaning concept of space & time” just means that Goku doesn’t have to worry about time in the Afterlife because he is dead. Surfbone explains it than I can.
If the Afterlife was Outerversal & beyond the concept of space & time, then why didn’t Goku just go back to his timeline when time to him is “irrelevant” yet he needed a Time Machine?
@@bruceShine777 Because he doesn't have the ability as most db characters are 3D beings with higher dimensional ki, also being capable of destroying a construct beyond dimensions doesn't necessarily mean you have the ability to travel through time just attack potency.
MUI Goju can be boundless(let me explain) He literally shaked the world of void,by filling it with ki and then shaking it,so did jiren. So yeah,Thats boundless.
Like even he one shotted base sonic...that's still a base sonic, you can argue he got stronger but I don't believe he's as strong *as* Sonic 06 Super sonic when they fought Solaris across his past, present and future.
Solaris was threatening to destroy the timelines and possibly the multiverse to the point three super hedgehogs were needed to even defeat him, infinite literally doesn't even scale to him at all and I highly doubt he would scale to three super forms and a literal god of time at all.
And I say this as well Since Solaris all he needed to do was just exist and then everything is fucked And Infinite is only like Sun level There are villians more stronger Like Erazor Djiin and Dark Gaia At least those two work better
The macrocosm from battle of gods contains a super dimensional realm being the dimension of lights... and you argue that with solaris.. so anyone scaling above the macrocosm would scale above solaris AP. And dragon ball has fused zamasu scaling to the timeline and spreading to multiple others and goku believed he could beat him. Thats literally a stronger Solaris, existing all through time, merging with other timelines and timelines being infinitely greater than everything containing, which is atleast multiversal+ because you think the macrocosm is low multiversal. Theres a surprising amount of info you either forgot, didnt see or ignored
This guy downplays dbz so badly. We just forgetting goku and vegeta can just force themselves through time? Like goku did it MULTIPLE TIMES against hit, and that was pre-TOP. Bare in mind by the end of the top goku in base is infinitely stronger than his ssbkkx10. This kid just dick rides sonic and thinks he knows what hes talking about
We have to update this now because as of Sonic X shadow Generations the Shadow sonic fought was a Shadow who was perfected by black doom. Shadow all this time actually wasn't finished and through his campaign you unlock his new black arms forms and power. And during the Sonic and Shadow fight he actually reframes from using his new power and tells Rouge that he will fight him on equal terms or not at all implying he was far far above Sonic.
Sonic is sweeping all of dragon ball, and goku is getting swept Hes strong, sure But can he beat a being that threatened infinite universes, and the entire sonic timeline? Hell nahh brutha 😭🙏
Wait don’t we all exist in the past present and future idk it’s a kinda wanly statement for immeasurable speed because I exist in the past the present and the future at the same time idk
Whoever says Death Battle never let Dragon Ball win shut up. Goji only has 1 DB win on his channel.
That’s not even true whoever said that haven’t been watching death battle that long
@@Alejandro333777 they probably only watched Goku vs superman or Vegeta vs thor
Yea if anything they don't let Sonic win.
Let me list all the Ws and Ls for both series at the top of my head if you're curious.
Dragon Ball:
Vegeta vs Shadow: W
Goku vs Superman 1: L
Goku vs Superman 2: L
Kirby vs Majin Buu: L
Hercule vs Dan: W
18 vs Captain Marvel: W
Roshi vs Jiryah: W
Beerus vs Galaxia: W
Hulk vs Broly: W
Goku Black vs Reverse Flash: L
Thor vs Vegeta: L
X. Trunks vs A. Silver: L
Gogeta vs Vegeto: W/L
Frieza vs Megatron: W
Goku vs Superman 3: pending...
Sonic:
Mario vs Sonic 1: W
Vegeta vs Shadow: L
Eggman vs Wily: ?
Luigi vs Tails: W
Amy vs Remona: W
DK vs Knuckles: L
Shadow vs Mewtwo: L
Metal vs Zero: L
Mario vs Sonic 2: L
Wally West vs A. Sonic: L
Shadow vs Ryuko: W
X. Trunks vs A. Silver: W
Let me be clear, I don't give af about who wins, I just like characters from different series interact with each other
@@cooler1679l mean Archie Silver won his Death Battle against Xeno trunks
Goku is basically a powerscaler's punching bag. He either gets completely obliterated or destroys whoever he's up against.
He is the wall that separates the fodder from gods
I kinda like that he got that role of gatekeeper like that given how popular he's been for forever
Except goku is a mid tier in an ocean of mid tiers.
@@Replies.Delete.SometimesIDKy no...he is not
@@Replies.Delete.SometimesIDKy he clears ur fav verse
This video lowkey inspired me to do some Sonic scaling with anime versus!
Nice video Goji, im a new supporter but I already love your stuff!
New supporter, old supporter, I’m grateful for all of you guys fr. And I’m glad i could inspire you to make your own stuff. I look foward to it fr!
Sonic has definitely grown in power over the years
No, there is just inconsistency. Randomness from Ken Pontac. The weakest display was is Super Sonic dying after crashing into a rock in Unleashed.
@@sumnahlennon5449excuse me dying? Could you explain it better please
@@sumnahlennon5449that straigth up never happen dude lmao
@@sumnahlennon5449Good to know you're not a legitimate power scaler my guy.
@@starsonic3607 He's pulling shit out from his ass
Does this get us one step closer to Silver vs Goku's Balls?
yes
"HOW ABOUT THIS!"
*_"GYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA-"_*
You make the real questions
Testicular torsion
@@markandrew287 i know it was meant to be gokus scream but I read that in my head as the sonic unleashed werehog death scream
I didn’t even know Sonic and Shadow (in the games) were THIS STRONG 😭
They are not. But if you compile inconsistencies, power scalers can say any nonsense. Sonic and Silver can be killed by motorbugs or thrown coconuts in new Sonic games.
Super Sonic flying into some pbjects cause him to lose rings. Its possible to ignorr all of that to nitpick and say the characters are 5D.
But thats false as Super Sonic cannot escape dimensions by himself like in Frontiers. He is not 5D. Hard enough robot attacks can hurt him.
@@sumnahlennon5449ah yes, yep, the same sonic that can be damage to rocks than be thrower from multiversal creatures, the same sonic than can resist a entire battle ship, yep, man please stop saying that, sonic is 5d and you can't say he isn't by just "oh sonic can die if he hit a coconut", sonic has a lot of resistent feats like resist erazor attacks in base, when erazor has absorbed to 1000 or even infinites universes of the 1001 nights
@@sumnahlennon5449GOOFY, bro you have to understand, that scaling power of video game characters consists of STORY BASED CONTENT.
Not gameplay goofy, in the story rings don’t power super sonic, sonic in base has survived black wholes and falling into earths orbit multiple times, and even escaped the void infinite trapped him in, WITH HIS SPEED IN BASE.
@@sumnahlennon5449That’s like playing a dragonball game and pinning saiyan saga vegeta against fused zamasu and saying saiyan saga vegeta is stronger than zamasu because he beat him in game.
@@ef-jkota3611 i 100% agree with you on this
Even if Goku and Vegeta team up against Solaris, they would need Broly to actually defeat him. Past, Present and Future, all Solaris...Solarises? Solari! All of them need to be defeated at once.
Doesn’t trunks have a Time Machine?
@@emerald_a_op4400 With the Time Machine, you can only go to one time period at a time, along with the limited supply of power. As I said, Solaris needs to be defeated at the same time in the Past, Present AND the Future.
Goku himself would stomp the piss out of Solaris in base. The only problem would be that he can't defeat him in the past, present and future at the same time but even then he could just use the time machine to get to each version of Solaris.
@@ashuraomega1000That won't work bro. He needs to defeat Solaris in the Past, Present, and Future Simultaneously. He can't use the time machine
Goku still losses with Broly's Help
TailsTube outright stated Solaris was a threat to the ENTIRE Sonic Multiverse.
It doesn't even take a TH-camr or powerscaler to prove that. Eggman himself said in 06 that Solaris is a super dimensional lifeform existing in every possible point in time to ever exists that also eats entire dimensions for lunch. That makes him omnipresent.
That doesn't mean anything for Sonic because Solaris does this by using powers Sonic does not have
Pretty sure he said that abt time eater too
"so does Krillin" took me tf out 🤣
Finally someone who understands The End and Infinite's power! Btw, since Infinite out sped Sonic, wouldn't that mean that,now, they'd both have irrelevant speed?
In his first scene i used to think infinite simply placed a projection next to him that everyone could see
it wasn’t really infinite but the phantom ruby that did most of the feats if not all of the feats
that is what I think
@@supermaximglitchy1 Yeah I know, pretend like I was talking about Infinite with the Phantom Ruby
Nobody in sonic has irrelevant speed
@@theautisticbeaver4885 Then... Why does what I just said make sense?
@@i_like_videogames9517 it doesn’t
Both Sonic and Shadow has the acability to breath in space meanwhile Goku and Vegeta barely cannot
So? they can exist in places without time
@@dsm2417this places still have living conditions
@@dsm2417so can 2 sonics, 2 tails, 2 eggmen, knuckles, Amy, cream, Rogue, blaze, vector, espio, charmy, silver and shadow and classic metal Sonic (who is weaker than classic sonic)
@@blametheghost Plus Chaos Control, which is Shadow's signature move
@@DevinGamerz0629 which sonic can also use, even with a fake emerald
For the actual character scaling I thought you were going to use Archie Sonic for a minute there. I never realized video game Sonic was actually that powerful
The game sonic downplay is insane
@@TheologicalRezifr
Yall really need to stop underestimating Modern Sonic, Archie Sonic isn't the end all be all. Heck, Modern Sonic is still growing in power and I wouldn't be surprised if he eventually surpasses Archie one day for obvious reasons.
@@sacredpower7530 We dont underestimate Modern Sonic buddy.
Game Sonic still isnt close to Archie Sonic.
Archie Sonic feats are way wanked like destroying multiple universes while fighting against knucles, holding entire multiverse in his fist, Super Sonic also in archie comics way stronger than game super
I wished that people weren't so toxic to each other and had fun when debating
so basically... this video is about infinite. thats real epic
This video pandered to my kid self and teenage self with your analysis of Sonic and Dragon Ball respectively, and I loved it. After checking out your channel and seeing what videos you produce, I gotta say you must keep up this good work
Low-mid diff is crazy
It’s literally neg diff speedblitz for the hedgehogs
+they have way better abilities
I was about to roast you on the idea Infinite isn’t the strongest, I’m glad you took that out the video😂
I gotta disagree with Time Eater being low multi, he was going to destroy all of Space and Time. Ian says Time Eater is unbounded by the concepts of Space and Time, would this not make Time Eater way higher than low multiversal?
@@axiom6000 funny how you take what Ian says to heart once it supports ur argument, but suddenly whatever he says that supports Solaris > the end you disregard all of it
@@dino_mite8403 Bro, I took what Ian said to heart because it’s supported by the game. Solaris being the strongest villain isn’t supported by the game, and even Ian’s bosses do not agree with him. Ian was just giving his opinion, also Ian has said before that The End is the strongest.
@@axiom6000 Solaris being weaker than the end was never supported by the games, Ian's bosses have not claimed the end was the strongest and Ian has also said that the end is merely a planetary threat which is supported by the games as the end is compared to dark Gaia and was shown destroying the koko's home world
@@dino_mite8403 Yes it is lmao, The End says it’s superior to all of Sonics previous villains. Kishimoto the creator of Sonic Frontiers says The Titians are as strong as Sonics previous villains. And then Eitaro Toyoda says Infinite is the strongest villain(at the time of Sonic Forces) make it make sense why I would take Ian’s word over his bosses? Ian isn’t a god, he is bound by what SEGA/Sonic Team says, and higher ups in Sonic Team disagree with him. Ian is wrong when he says that too, we know this because The End wants to consume all. We also know that The End ITSELF SAYS THAT ITS THE STRONGEST THING SONIC HAS FACED! Meaning it’d HAVE to be stronger than planetary. Another problem with taken Ian Flynn as god is he contradicts himself, how can we fully trust what Ian says when he contradicts himself?
Crazy how different in power anime and manga characters should be.
Specially considering that manga goku never absorbs god in base.
yeah,it should be separated,not united,both versions are different
@@Sonic2024freedomera honestly as a sonic fan, Goku's feat were really ignored here, specially considering that heaven alone its atleast a 4D space without counting the rest of the cosmos+demon realm+mortal realm+kaioshin planet. I think that sonic would win but no way in hell it would be as easy as this guy thinks, Goku and vegeta could also ignore solaris and infinite with hakai.
Hell, Ian flynn confirmed that solaris is still the highest tier villain on the franchise. And solaris cannot stack to "infinite times multiversal" or multi+ because it was slowly destroying and not instatly, theres even lefting space voids like the ones in which our protags are in.
He does. Goku in the DBS Manga does not absorb the power, but he trained with Whis and increased his power to SSG levels. While not shown in said manga, it is supplemented by the movie, the anime, and even the promotional Resurrection F manga Toyotaro made.
@@TakeshiInazuma the promotional manga was made years before super.
Also, "yeah its not shown in the manga or any canon product of it and we never see it too. But trust me it is canon for appearing in other non-canon media!!!"
@@elcrakcultraporxchara3260 his feet are weird
For me personally, I feel like you can argue goku and Vegeta being 5D once they surpassed Broly in power. But I don’t think that really changes much since speed is pretty much what they’re lacking.
Immeasurable speee db is consistent 🗣
@@mufasa5288 no it isnt 😭
@@whimzzalot so zamasu didn’t happen huh?
They lack power aswell, 5D is low for Sonic. He gets much higher.
@@axiom6000 well based off the scaling presented in the vid I don’t believe goku and vegeta can beat The end that’s stated to be infinitely above prior villains but besides that villain they should be able to beat the 3 first villains due to 5D scaling
Shadow puts the DBZ verse in the locker 😭💀
@sumnahlennon5449 Well not the entire verse (maybe if he had the super emeralds tho.)
Wow, that’s an interesting concept for power scaling
This was a pretty awesome scaling for the 2 duo's, also the fact that at the end of the frontiers DLC fight, the end is not only able to damage super sonic giving scratch's and stuff, but he was also able to knock him unconscious, in unleashed he did get tired from fighting dark gaia, but i think that's a bit understandable since dadk gaia is the embodiment of darkness with negative energy, and super sonic is mostly powered by positive energy, but yeah again awesome scaling for the 2 duo's mainly the hedgehog duo for me personally
2:28 You can’t get from Low Multi to Multiversal with multipliers. Even if you can blow up…let’s say 2 entire space time continuums, if you double your power, you won’t be able to destroy 4 due to each additional universe being an entire infinite gap, and Multiversal would equate to 1000 separate space time continuums. The entire DB Macrocosm is 12 universes of about 3 universal to infinite 3-D sized space time continuums
The universe 7 macrocosm is infinite with multiple infinities inside of it that destroying it makes you outer
@@youngfish1370 Without context, what you just describe is simply layered High 3-A since you didn’t say they’re separate space times. However with separate space times included, that’s 2-A+ or Multiversal plus scaling to infinite multiverses
Not outer
@@jocoolshowit has several separate space times an example being the hyperbolic time chamber. Despite a few narrative flaws dbsh is a sequel to the dbs anime which connects the canon to the “non canon” making it canon. Be honest though don’t act like sonics writing has been above mediocre for the last 20 years. Going off of this the multiverse is stated to be infinite numerous times with infinite numbers of paths and inside of them along with several infinite structures inside of them. I’m getting tired of using the word infinite.
You’re forgetting the null realm which holds these universes. If it’s an infinite space that can hold multiple infinities it’s automatically multiversal. Anything that can hold the null realm would be complex/hyper.
@@theautisticbeaver4885
Hold up, sonics writing in terms of games has been dope.
U said 20 years
U do know unleashed, colors, lost world, Idw, and archie are included in that right?
i dare you to power scale biblically accurate angels and compare them to dragonball characters
Lol
Great video and scaling bro
Glad you enjoyed it! Be sure to subscribe for more weekly videos (RAHHHHH)
This FINALLY proved to my friend that Mario is losing against Sonic, none of that bullshit "oh but he got light speed reaction"! Like bro come on!😂
Mario then hitting that faster than sonic speed reactions
@@mrme.484 What?
@@mrme.484🌝
since when does mario have light speed reactions he dies when a turtle touches him
Well not really sonics speed is faster than marios and it needs 1 powerup to destroy this fat ass
Also the same towards movie Mario and sonic
Sonic solos neg diff
So I do have some issue with the dragon ball speed scaling as inaccessible and immeasurable are inconsistent with other feats, like why do characters still use teleportation if their combat speed is beyond teleportation ya know? Also for the sonic speed scaling the fight was Sonic in the PResent, Shadow in the Past, and Silver in the future. That isn't a speed feat, the best speed feat for inaccessible speed is being able to move in sonic generations hub world as it is a realm without time. And the other immeasureable speed arguments are fine.
1.yeah,the dragon ball has alot of problems,even the ''inaccesible''speed one,considering:
A.time still exist there,zeno didn't erase it
B.literraly the hit thing is precognition or time resistance(the worst time resistance ever)
2.Even so, they manage to dodge attacks from Solaris, and Solaris attacks at all times because it is omnipresent, and immeasurable speed has more to do with going beyond linear time, and not with being temporally omnipresent.
3.It also has no space, since time eater erases space and time, so it would be immeasurable speed anyway
Rudo I can prob help with that.
1. I assume this is in relation to future zeno erasing a timeline, yes time is still there as evidenced by the time machine (Also hit has timeskip so Goku forced himself into the future if u take it literal, I take it like diavolo's Time erase tbf)
2. Solaris is temporal omnipresent and immeasurable I doubt as if we go by vsbattles "Immeasurable (Movement unbound from the flow of linear time, which cannot be measured. Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined, the speed formula cannot be applied.) Solaris only exists in those three states so omnipresent technically, immeasurable no.
3. Time eater is actually correct and this video should've swapped solaris with it since solaris has no answer to it
@@aidiot778 ok
True that's why I don't scale teleportation as any speed feat since basically we could say that each teleportation user could easily warp faster than time and space
The chaos emerald have a history each have a universe basically in them making sonic 7x universal or multi how you can argue
actually sonic and shadow and silver destroyed 3 different solarises and that was them in super form fighting alone.
Solaris can exist in past present and future they attacked one but fighted just one part of solaris in each time
@lordenma4449 yeah but there isn't any stated nerfs to existing In multiple points of time.
Bro the sonic vs goku was how I become a dragon ball fan bro! Thanks.
SO. SONIC VS GOKU WHEN-
Lol base sonic solo goku
@@iphone5s659definitely not base sonic if you mean game sonic, he would win as super sonic, or maybe super sonic 2 if people wanna argue gokus bullshit stuff
@Archie.Phantom naw mate, I like the guy but no.
He might have beaten perfect chaos in base, but like there’s a lot of dragon ball characters millions of times stronger than him, and considering it took sonic like 6 games to reach his adventure super level of power in base, he ain’t millions of times stronger.
He gonna need to go super sonic. Just like accept it and bang, goku still HEAVILY dies but sonic isn’t the jesus of powerscaling
@iphone5s659 base??? Hell nah
@@iphone5s659 Eh. It's really difficult to argue Base getting even close to multi. Super on the other hand absolutely clears Goku.
Definitely drop more sonic vids
The SSG multipler is basically SSJ3 Vegetio compared to Base Goku via Goku doubting the fusion would defeat Beerus. Just thought I'd mention that.
Sonic: when we last met i was but a leaner now i am the master
Goku: defeat me and my fanboys would annoy you to death beyond your imagination
4:00 literally the power scaling in dragon ball after the battle of gods ☠️:
Both parties will actually thrive in both universes. The more the challenge the stronger they get
Personally I do think Goku and Vegeta could get past Solaris due to the use of Hakai, which is supposed to erase you from existence, even across timelines. The only reason this failed to kill Goku Black when present day Zamasu died was because of his time ring protecting him from changes to his personal timeline. So a combined hakai from both Vegeta and Goku could likely do the trick.
However they still have a problem when it comes to fighting Infinite. One aspect of Infinite that wasn't mentioned in this video is that out of Shadow's own mouth, the copies of other characters Infinite creates are equal in strength to the originals. Its a bit awkward since Shadow says this line after one shotting his own copy, meaning Shadow is strong enough to one shot himself. Anyways, just Imagine if Infinite made multiple copies of Goku and Vegeta. A whole Army of them.
If characters like beerus can eliminate everything with the hakai, why did they fear zeno and the grand priest? Ma'man you are taking the hakai too literal, goku can only eliminate characters that are less powerful than him
@@matitheanimator I'm not being too literal. Goku Black out of his own mouth mentioned that the time ring protected him. Anyways you're completely misunderstanding why I even mention Hakai. You see Solaris has to be defeated in the past, present and future simultaneously for him to actually be put down for good. This is why it took Sonic, Silver and Shadow combined. But with Goku and Vegeta, there's only two of them. This is why I said they need to do it combined. With both characters scaling to multiversal, a combined Hakai would make up the difference. I'm not labeling Hakai as some instant win button, I'm saying it's literally their only option.
Wait. THEY COULD ACTUALLY DO THAT YOU SMART AS HELL. Maybe they could fuse to gogeta or vegito to hakai him
Solaris is an immortal god. It's indirectly stated in DBS that the Hakai technique doesn't work on immortals, and Whis proposes to seal Zamasu, not destroying him.
Besides, the Hakai technique doesn't work on beings that are stronger than you anyways. So I feel it is 100% possible that Goku and Vegeta fall to Solaris, even with their combined Hakai.
3:31 If that space has no time
How did they time travel to it??
Sorry but strongly disagree with you. You ignore that fact silver is in the sonic forces which means sonic failed to defeat infinite and Silver made huge difference by damaging phantom ruby.
In Solaris, you didn't include the fact silver was there in his super form.
You didn't talk about goku and vegeta could use fusion when they are desperate.
Finally Sonic superform is heavily flawed which knuckles demonstrates this by not only knocking his superform, but stealing chaos emeralds as well. Heck since master emeralds can be broken, so can chaos emeralds as well.
So sonic and Shadow would failed against broly by knocking out his super form while goku and vegeta would be able to defeat infinite by damaging his phantom ruby, Solaris by fusion and breaking law of physics.
There more I can say but people must likely not going to bother reading this far.
First off, sonic got stronger at the end of the game and beat infinite which renders that argument as invalidated
Next he literally said that each hedgehog had to beat Solaris in all 3 timelines, respectively
Next this is flawed for the same reason your first point is, that was kid sonic way back when, at a time he was *MUCH* weaker, he got way stronger later on
Finally you're making up a very vague scenario here.
13:51 in my opinion this statement is more a narrative statement rather than a powerscaling one. I believe The End believes itself to be the very concept of entropy due to its arrogance
The super hedgehogs don't scale to Solaris. Before I get into this I want to say I don't think it taking Silver, Sonic, and Shadow meant much. All are implied to be relative in their super forms and if one of them could exist in the past, present, and future just like Solaris you would really only need 1. With that out of the way I'll get into why I personally don't think the super hedgehogs scale to Solaris. Eggman himself thought it was impossible to destroy a super dimensional being. The team said they can't destroy its form, they had to mind rape Solaris. "Even if we can't stop his form, we can stop his consciousness!". To put the nail in the coffin Elise asks Sonic if we destroyed Solaris and he blatantly replies with No. Only way that makes sense is if he didn't beat Solaris or he was referring to him needing help from Silver and Shadow which I think we can both agree is not what was being implied. Still it can be used to give Team Sonic some good telepathy if you assume Solaris also has godlike mind resistance (Which is pretty unlikely given that they couldnt hurt his form and went to hurt his mind; wouldnt make sense if his mind is relative to his form)
I do think the Time Eater point is valid to give the *Super Form* immeasurable speed. All though it's pretty clear Sonic wasn't doing that. Tails says they are travelling through time and space which means Sonic wasn't travelling outside time. "When that thing goes through time (referring to time eater)) it tears space apart leaving the areas empty and dead, and sticking them in this weird white limbo! When the sonic's *accelerate through time* they fix space, returning color and life!".
Base Sonic in Generations probably doesn't scale to Perfect Chaos, he just found a new way to access it's weak spot (I.E, boost). Theres really nothing to assume Sonic in Adventure couldn't hurt Perfect Chaos, it's just that he couldn't get to it, his Super form allowed him to and now boosting allows him to. Eggman referring to Infinite as an "unstoppable creation" is very clearly hyperbole given... it's from Eggman, he always says his latest creation is his strongest and will be the one to defeat Sonic.
As for the titans being stronger or as strong as beings like Solaris, just no. They are saying imagine if the first boss in Frontiers is as strong as the previous from a *gameplay standpoint*. As in, Sonic has to turn Super to defeat them. Without that and with Ian Flynn saying the end is cocky and arrogant it's pretty clear The End's scaling is hit or miss (Especially when you consider the titans can scale to weaker final bosses using that logic). Solaris wasn't susceptible to the Super Hedgehogs attacks as I already established. Solaris is still the strongest villain in Sonic. He probably does beat Goku and Vegeta but Sonic and Shadow probably stop somewhere at around Fat Buu with speed carrying them to this point.
1.The reason not to destroy Solaris is because he is immortal, literally Iblis can constantly resurrect no matter how much you kill him, do people forget that Solaris is still part Iblis?
and there is nothing that says that his mind is weaker than the rest of his body, because literally apart from the fact that it is the only way to defeat him definitively (ignoring the flame of solaris of course) the thing resists many blows from the super forms Something that not even the armor could resist, and I don't have to explain why the armor should scale to the power of Solaris because it would be very obvious.
and no,for scaling you don't need to beat a character,actually beating a character makes you upscale,what makes you scale is the fact that you have affected the character,significantly enough,and like you see in the fight,yeah,they pretty much affect solaris,they break his armor,block his attacks and
They return them (silver) and even damage their consciousness, which resists much more than their own armor.
2.It doesn't matter if it is inside or outside of time (besides, in reality there is no time, even Eggman himself mentions it, so what tails actually refers to erased time, not time itself) is immeasurable, immeasurable speed It has to do with moving beyond linear time, and literally traveling through time and space is going beyond linear time.
3.boosting only makes him faster, not stronger, plus the ''weak'' point of chaos is not infinitely weaker,it is just the hit spot of chaos,and remind you,chaos is a being made out of water,so you cannot tecnically hit him and damage him like you will normally do,
and even with that, his brain is still able to rebuild itself from chaos by turning into water or being spread into water, so technically it is not the weakest point of chaos, it is rather the point where it is possible to harm him
and no, it is not really, considering that eggman is the most intelligent character in his franchise (tails included) but if they make mistakes it is because they are not capable of making mistakes, but making mistakes does not automatically mean that you do not have reasons sometimes.
4.Ian Flynn can sometimes contradict himself with what he says, sometimes he doesn't even remember certain things in the lore.
and we must keep in mind that the titans are capable of fighting a super sonic that is far beyond the capabilities of a super sonic in his adventure era (2006 rather) so obviously yes, the super sonic The fight against Solaris is far behind.
Besides the fact that Sonic needed a power up to defeat The End, something that no villain ever needed, which clearly puts The End above and a lot more than Solaris, Solaris can be temporarily omnipresent and all that, but in power he falls short.
Mind rape 💀
Infinite got weakened after summoning a sun. Solaris literally wiped out all of existence with ease. Solaris>>>>>>>>>>Fraudfinite.
Still can't believe that Death Battle hoed Infinite this badly I'm damn surprised to see there is an argument for him being this powerful
Sonic's powerscaling is kinda insane
I mean I am a Sonic fan and I still think it's insane
Considering that base Sonic should now be stronger then even Solaris
My little spiky man solos
Base Sonic can die from a motorbug. Super Sonic in recent games dies or loses rings after flying and crashing into a rock
I dont like power scalers because *writer's intent* gets ignored. Sonic isn't bullet proof, and he can die from a small robot. If Super Sonic gets hurt after flying into an earth rock, he would be scaled closer to Powerpuff Girls.
These are inconsistencies, so think of writer's intent. Sega doesnt INTENT Sonic to be as strong as these nonsense fan theories.
Bro it’s game mechanics you talking about like seriously this is one of the worst debunking I have seen with sonic think about it would the game be fun if sonic just ran faster than time and destroyed all of egg man’s bots so fast you couldn’t even see it? I think not lmao bro stop being in denial and accept your monkey gets clapped by a blue hedgehog 🙊😂
@@sumnahlennon5449 Play db xenoverse 2, select yamcha and win against ssj blue, now here we are, yamcha strongest than goku
@@sumnahlennon5449Dying to robots isn’t canon
Can’t wait for the 1 hour remaster where Goji goes all the way back to the beginning to bring us back to now.
I heavily disagree that the Daizenshuu and guide book statements surrounding DBZ aren't consistent enough. The statements surrounding the Dragon Ball cosmology were made by Toriyama himself and have never been directly contradicted by any other statements made by the writers or anything in the series itself. Even the Daizenshuu alone has many statements that directly say that the Dragon Ball universe is infinite in size with multiple universe sized realms and constructs that make up the macrocosm of universe 7. I don't know about you but that seems consistent enough to me. None of the statements are "inconsistent" at all since they only add upon each other. And even if this wasn't the case, Goku still has many feats in both the anime and manga that put him past 4D at a lowball when you scale him correctly.
I hate to say this, but didnt toriyama claim that the universe was four galaxies, then four super clusters, then all of the sudden the amount of stars and galaxies are innumerable? I wouldnt call this consistent, let alone trust him with a greater cosmology that he doesn't even need
I really liked this video great job. DBZ and Sonic are really fun to scale and battle against. You did a very good job not down playing either verse (imo)
Which is stronger, Current game Sonic or Archie Sonic?
Archie.
4:57 well im so glad they are finally giving shadow the love he deserves and his own original powers , doom powers .
Poetically similar to how Vegeta went and got his own power ups instead of ultra instinct
Tbf, Using character from SDBH would be more fair than the canon one.
How?!
@@getlllz3438 cuz they both much stronger, have more hax/ability and they're really popular match-up
Canon Goku stomps. Game Sonic is a planet level fodder. He gets wanked to high heavens
Meanwhile Archie Sonic and Archie Shadow are there being compared to the more OP Marvel and DC characters
Where is the Omni man vs word girl vid
Awesome video! God Bless.
Also, Solaris is still the most powerful Sonic villain as stated by Iyan Flynn. The order is TimeEater, Infinite, The End and Solaris.
Thankfully this is before people paid attention to gokus scaling now hes high complex (low ball) and outerversal
(Highball)
If you did Freddy Krueger vs Pinhead using Power Scaling who would win?
Downplaying Dragon Ball like this is wild
Highly disagree with Infinite being stronger than the Time Eater as the Time Eater wasn’t created by Eggman with it being explicitly stated that he found the creature in space after the events of Sonic Colours. So Infinite wouldn’t upscale from that on terms of being a “stronger” creation since he never made it in the first place. Also the Phantom Ruby that Infinite uses was a copy version thus doesn’t scale directly to any statement made to the original. Soooo Time Eater > Infinite.
The rest of it I can take or leave it.
Infinite's phantom ruby is a finalize prototype of the original PR. The only difference is that Infinite's PR needs to recharge while the original doesn't.
Sonics statement in frontiers doesnt make sense because at tha time he was dealing with the cyber corruption
Saying Goku isn't even 5D is a pretty dumb take ngl especially since universe 7 is comprised of at the very least 8 different space-times (possibly even more if you count the realms in between dimensions like the void and Suguroku Space) with a good portion of them transcending space and time, the afterlife alone is stated multiple times in not only the guides but by the teams who worked on DB to be a higher dimensional realm over the mortal universe and that it transcends all of space and time and the totality of dimensionality which at bare minimum places it at 5D. It was also stated in the guides and V Jump magazines for BOG that Goku and Beerus's battle was "Super dimensional" and that even Beerus's power alone was "beyond dimensions", "super dimensional" on its own dosent mean much without proper context but the definition of the term usually just means "1+ dimensional" aka scaling 1 extra layer into dimensional power which means Goku in BOG can already be scaled to 6th dimensional levels of strength. There's also the fact that Infinite Zamasu (in the anime) engulfed all of Future Trunk's timeline and fused with the entirety of universe 7 (which is a multiversal sized realm) and grew so much to the point where his power seeped into multiple other timelines such as the present, this alone makes Infinite Zamasu 5D at bare minimum and Goku was confident he could have stopped him with a single Senzu Bean. Jiren also surpasses this version of Zamasu in his base form and is so powerful he can shake the entire World of Void just by walking which at bare minimum is a 5D construct because it transcends space and time, Goku later replicates this feat in UI just by powering up as well. There are many more arguments to be used but I'll disregard those for the sake of this comment not being too long. Overall there are many ways you can scale Goku to 6D+ levels of power and higher even at the start of super which I feel were kinda disregarded throughout most of this video.
All wank
@@Goji-C if this was Kratos or some other character you'd be using every single statement and feat to prove your scaling lmfao. You're downplaying Dragon Ball to fit your own agenda
Sonic would still win since he would scale to 12D or 13D
Alright, Koyama statements aren't valid, they never were valid, and ya'll need to let it go, the word koyama uses to describe heaven and hell is "transcendental" which for some reason means to you guys that it's "transcendent" ot higher dimensional, which isn't true as transcendental is a world only used to describe the afterlife life or a spiritual experience, the best you can scale each universe are limited versions of 4d, that's all.
What if it's Time patrollers instead of Goku and Vegeta.
Also Sonic and Shadow caps at Arala unfortunately.
What if Devilman and Cyborg 009 swapped battles?
The only way Goku and Vegeta could fight the time eater is if they could go fast enough to restore space time.
Do the same thing but with Luffy and Naruto 🍷🗿
Naruto solos
Naruto slams
maybe not as 1 sided as Naruto vs Konahamaru 🤣
Luffy doesn’t become the hokage, Naruto becomes the pirate king.
W🍷🗿
Nah bruh sonic solos
Luffy is mid mountain or island and naruto just planet
Sonic solos
Nice video!
I would disagree with the assumption that each Titan from frontiers are all Solaris level characters. Because super sonic shadow and silver had to team up to take Solaris down together all at once. And only super sonic fought each titan.
Sonic would have never beat Solaris without two other super form users by his side.
You know that Solaris exit in past, present and future and for to defeat Solaris they must defeat him in past, present and future at same time that means shadow fight past Solaris, sonic fight present Solaris and silver fight future Solaris each of them fight one Solaris and end read sonic mind and said all sonic past fight and opponent were weak and sonic need power up to defeat end and even Solaris only need super and the titan's we're at the same level of sonic past opponent's and infinite was really stronger than Solaris because phantom ruby was stated that is even stronger than master emerald and master emerald can destroy the power of chaos emerald's the same emerald's that help sonic to defeat Solaris and time eater
We technically don't even know how strong the Titans are, all we know about them is that they are stronger than base Sonic, that's it.
Goku and Vegeta are powerful but they will be stopped by the Time Eater. The Time Eater was going to destroy all of Sonic’s cosmology which is high into 7D. Dragon Ball’s cosmology isn’t that big (5D) compared to Sonic’s. Sonic and Shadow would beat the verse since they both are comparable to each other and scale to their big feats, fought and defeated Solaris and Time Eater (two powerful deities that were going to destroy the cosmology which included Sonic’s Multiverse, Maginaryworld, and White Space.)
The Time Eater could threaten Maginaryworld? Solaris I get, but the Time Eater?
@@porobotboyxxx In part yes, maginaryworld is part of the space-time of the entire multiverse, being that in itself, it is a reality that is part of the multiverse (even so it contains all the dreams of the multiverse)
@@Sonic2024freedomera Sonic Team needs to make Cosmology map of Sonic’s Multiverse already. Cause I thought Maginaryworld would be above the Sonic Multiverse, similar to that of DC’s multiverse map. Hence why I questioned if the Time Eater could threaten Maginaryworld.
Solaris and Dark Gaia can harm Super Sonic by throwing earth rocks. In Sonic Unleashed, Super Sonic flying and crashing into an earth rock causes him to die or lose rings.
Stop making up stuff about Super Sonic's durability that not even Sega believes
*The story of Sonic Generations takes place in an alternate time dimension. Thats why they could battle Time Eater*
how strong is comp sonic every version of sonic combined into one
Solaris one doesn't make sense tho. Like isn't he supposed to be omnipresent plus he also exist in present, past and the future so you need to attack him from three different timelines to defeat him. I mean yeah strength wise super sonic (frontiers) or super sonic 2 or infinite or even supreme might be stronger than solaris but in order to defeat him they need to attack him for three different timelines at the same time.
It does make sense, you explained it yourself. Infinite and The End possibly are stronger than Solaris, but his omnipresence is what makes him harder to defeat than the other two
Solaris just has more survivability if It makes sense,he is waaay more Difficult to Kill,but he is weaker Than those two, Perfect Example? Zamasu VS Moro,or Gas
Sonic present, shadow past, silver future
Use of the Caveman movie
Instant sub
Okay so game sonic is stronger than Goku now. Ohhh this is going to make some people unhappy with this.
Ngl with new power scaling a year later ultra ego fused with MUI could maybe beat him, but they would probably still get cooled
Base form sonic could slap solaris now, HE BEAT SOMEONE STRONGER THAN HIM IN BASE!
sonic will be goku's next teacher
I wonder though, what about Moro? Sure, he may be weaker, but he can also absorb their power and drain them quickly. Given the speed similarities, if he plays it smart couldn't he possibly win via that? (Also cant he eat and absorb powers? Idk if that was just a 73 thing but like, if he did that to shadow then sheeesh)
Yeah,Moro would be a problem if they play too much,but the only Way they get 100% Screwed is if they start on their Super forms and then just....don't do shit,play too much and allow him to absorb their Power
Shadow ain’t stupid to do this. Sonic, def but shadow is a different case
@@getlllz3438 stupid to do what? I'm talking about Moro being smart and avoiding them as he drains them knowing his innitial strength disadvantage, i.e he plays defensively whilst they play offensively
@@getlllz3438 and that is why Moro winning is HIGHLY Unlikely
Give sonic and shadow the max ring count and they can beat Moro (I'm joking... Or am I? It's canon that tails questions where sonic keeps all his rings)
As of Frontiers, Sonic also has statements for being above the concepts of Time and Law as well
Ngl the cosmology difference is to high the db humans would one shot him and goku and vegeta could destroy the verse by existing
dbz meat rider spotted sonic cosmlogy is way above dbz
Their cosmology is literally 7D, Dragon Ball's is 5D lol.
@@acquired-k5z How is Sonic 7D? he's 4-5D at best.
@@CuteRedPanda64 Still, a DB Human ''oneshotting'' him is such a sign of meat riding.
@@acquired-k5z true but that depends on which versions of the DB human we're talking about.
I know this vid is 2 months old but the sonic downscale is unreal base sonic has boundless to above Tiering metas
Honestly i have cause for believe that dark gaia upscaled time eater, solaris, and infinite, but not the end
During the tails cutscene in frontiers where we see the end attack the ancients, tails says "that thing is stronger than dark gaia, Easily"
Note the fox with an iq of 300 (for those that wanna say "nuh uh") doesnt say the end is stronger than the time eater or infinite (solaris is still pseudo non canon so he gets a pass), he says its stronger than dark gaia, which first of all would throw the prior power scaling out the window, but second showing our eldritch baddie is a force to be reconned with.......still, wouldnt change anything since sonic clapped the end regardless, just thought id throw that out there
Regular Super Sonic was able to damage Solaris & Time Eater but couldn't damage The End until he became Super Sonic 2, That should tell you something at least.
@@ZeZoIsBoredthat tells you that the ends power has the ability to nullify the chaos energy flowing through sonic
@@ef-jkota3611 or can look at it say it made sonic stronger so he can damage him bc it didn't say it notified hik but agree to disgree i guess
@@ef-jkota3611 it wasn't mentioned at all that The End could "nullify chaos energy"
Instead, It said that Super Sonic "awakened his hidden powers" or in other words, he got stronger.
I think you were trying to talk about that time when It launched a huge attack that returned Super Sonic 2 back to base. but if you noticed, Sonic was losing rings because of that attack. Losing rings has always been an indication that Sonic is taking damage.
In other words, The End was strong enough to damage Super Sonic 2, basically a strength thing. not "nullify his chaos energy".
@@ZeZoIsBored It diidnt have to be mentioned, it’s literally shown through out the game, when he arrives on the second island there is a laser from the end that takes out super sonic, second island same thing
The third island either sonic willing detransforms from super because he thinks it’s safe, or he detransformed from the exhaustion that the corruption is putting on his body.
Since Solaris is Super/Hyper Dimensional being at least 5D+ and when Solaris went into his second Phase he went a dimensional tier higher( So Sonic, Shadow, and Silver couldn’t do any damage to his physical body) they needed to attack his consciousness which at least gives them 6D mental AP and if we go by those statements the End(at least in it’s Weakened state should at least 7D+ could be higher in its full strength and The End stated the Machines and Gods Sonic as fought is finite and the End its Infinite basically calling them weak compared to it
Saying Goku doesn't even scale to 5D is fucking bonkers. The cosmology and mortal universe scales to beyond 4D. The afterlife is a higher dimension so 4D to 5D depending on if you take time as the 4th dimension. The entire macrocosm + kaioshin realm would all be around 5D all the universal constructs in universe 7 are infinite in size with different levels of infinity but Goku doesn't have infinite power. Meaning his power simply surpasses it in dimensionality. The 6D finite power is superior to 5D infinity. Hence how and why he can handle a power that threatens the destruction of universe 7 as early as the start of super. Thus proving anime Goku scales beyond 6D and probably even higher. When you look at the facts Goku has scaled beyond Sonic ever since the beginning of super and the anime continuity isn't even the Canon version of dragon Ball (which scales much higher than the anime).
This video downplayed both DB’s cosmology and even Sonic’s cosmology.
For Goku - As u pointed out the afterlife could be argued to be super-dimensional by the guidebook, but even if not, Goku and Vegeta have been super-dimensional since Broly according to Whis’ statement.
As for Sonic and Shadow, they would still stomp because their cosmology is ridiculously. I’d go into detail but if u don’t want to read me ramble, Sonic vs the big three explains the absurd power gap of Sonic in Base and even Super Sonic. Basically, Sonic in Base is already 6D after the events of Forces, and with his Super form, he becomes broken by the time of Frontiers.
It all upscales from BOG so even if yyou want to say BoG goku is 4d somehow, there's no viable scaling or feats that would get him any higher than that, and I'll bring up the notable mentions
Jiren being stronger than Beerus is contentious on its own. Considering Beerus is still way beyond goku and Vegeta in the manga, on top of the fact that the manga is much farther in, you can argue that the manga retroactively changes the context of the statement.
Jiren surpassing hit has nothing to do with surpassing time. Taking Vados' statement at face value would also be disregarding context as Hit's abilities still revolve around his original time bubble technique, if Jiren is somehow special by besting Hit, then Goku should have gotten to that stage of power a long time ago
Goku coming back to the timeline in itself is an outlier. Trunks opened the pod so that means he's somehow that strong, the time machine logically just shouldn't even be there and I doubt we're gonna argue about a 4D time machine that's no different from the one trunks took. It also disregards any statements harconing back to the saiyans needing oxygen, and its only really contradicted in filler. Not to mention that this would also deminish Jiren being above time as not only did Goku NEED to take the time machine back, that just makes Jiren seem like he just caught up - rather than already being again.
Otherworld being a seperate dimension doesn't make it a higher dimension. Many characters can travel back and forth as they please even prior to the saiyan saga, and events in the mortal realm happen in real time compared to either otherworld or the kaioshin realm. They're merely different dimensions, none of them are explicitly higher than the other. Kami has gone back and forth many times canonically, and yet he can't even hold onto the mafuba long enough to seal DKP, do you know how often weaker characters have sealed stronger beings with that move, especially in Super??
You can argue that BoG was also a chain reaction statement rather than pure power. If the destruction of the living universe would kill off the rest of the cosm, then that's no different from the sun's supernova being able to destroy the solar system.
Also I have to add, if the traveling waves got stronger as they went out, then that cant be contributed to Goku or Beerus' power at that moment either, which is just MORE chain reactions
@@arkkon2740 Jiren surpassed his OWN god of destruction. Not the others. I'm not debating with someone who didn't even watch the show lmfao
@@RetroMagnus761 Besides the fact that the anime made many implications of Beerus and Uni 11's GoD are similar in power, they've gone back and forth on this constantly and we'll have to see where the anime goes to actually confirm any of this
And if you noticed, i brought up the manga multiple times for this
Goku can't even beat cell.
I have a huge recommendation if I can? Could I get a measure on Speedrun Mario, from Terminal Montage, versus a speedster of your choice? I don't think anyone has calculated Speed-Run mario at all and would love to see a video on it.
The down play for DB is disgusting lol
Exactly cuz there are soo many canon guides that scale Dragon Ball cosmology from 8D to outerversal.
1. The living world is stated to be infinite and has numerous realms with their own separate space-times so already 4D.
2. Living world is also stated consistently to have super dimensions with the kanji being "choujigen" which would make living world 5D.
3. The afterlife is stated to transcend The Living World and its dimensions metaphysically making other world 6D, but can also be scaled to outerversal since it is also stated to transcend the concept of space and time.
4. Zeno palace is most likely a higher Dimension since all the 12 universes are present as little orbs and the two zenos are shown in the manga playing them as chest pieces which would make his domain 7D.
5. Timelines are beyond everything that is listed above and there are infinite timelines with each single timeline having their own sets of 12 universes with an omni king ruling over them, so timelines or parallel worlds are 8D.
@@bruceShine777 you realize there’s a part in Z we’re old kai tells Goku to stop flying so fast cause he’ll end up time traveling to the future right? I can send the scene. Plus they use a Time Machine cause it’s literally easier and more convenient
@@bruceShine777 first of all don’t tell me about grammar lmfao grammar police gotta be the weirdest people. You guys care about how strangers on the internet type. Tf is that about??? Second of all, I already know someone was gonna say this. If it’s so exaggerated and debunkable than DO IT. Every time I ask y’all this, y’all either run off or make a lame excuse
@@bruceShine777 BRO I CAN LITERALLY SEE YOUR NSFW PLAY LIST WTF 💀💀
@malikmcfarlane6060 8d to outerversal
Learn how scaling works, then talk
why does game sonic seem to scales to archie knuckles or whatever
but sonic can't reaccess the cyber form after update 3, the sonic wiki confirms it
so using that against the dbs villains isn't really fair
I'm not saying that's immediately gonna make sonic and shadow lose to dbs but still
also didn't they only beat solaris because silver was also there, and they just used his weakness (blowing out the candle inside him with Elise's permission) to kill him? isn't that en exploit, and therefore not an exact strength feat used to beat solaris? (I haven't seen the ending to 06 in ages forgive me if I'm wrong)
Well no, they beat Solaris. The entire point with Solaris is that no matter what you do, he’ll come back. You can beat him, but he’ll come back. The only way to destroy Solaris for good is to blow out his flame, which will erase him from existence.
thanks for clarifying
btw if that suggested otherwise, I don't think goku and vegeta would beat solaris
also my personal takes are:
- goku and vegeta could 1v1 infinite and win
- goku and vegeta would need to 2v1 time eater to win, based on time eater's hax
- goku and vegeta could individually beat the end from before update 3 on their own, but after update 3, they would need to work together to beat the end
- goku and vegeta get negged by Solaris
I also think sonic and shadow would lose to Moro, purely because of moros absorption and hax such as healing
(sorry for the long comment)
@@ickle1790 The thing with solaris is that he needs 3 people to be defeated, one in the past and one in the present and one in the future to defeat his consciousness because he exists on all 3 of 'em at the same time, and THEN blow the fire with Elise to finally erase him.
@@ickle1790honestly,moro's only chance is if they start at Súper,and just Fuck around for Hours (yes,Hours) so that moro can absorb enough power to beat then,even then we have already seen that he can't absorb too MUCH power without getting Unstable
The sonic wiki isnt made by sega. Its made by fans
ngl i'd watch a 1 hour video of going through all of their villains
12:16 this is a statement for archie sonic's multiverse, not game sonic.
Ian flynn did say that Archie multiverse is the same as the game multiverse,but again,Ian Flynn doesn't know wth he is talking about sometimes so who knows
@@bichoestranhocomcaudas6543 no, he said that there's a universe in Archie's multiverse that plays out like the games.
It would have been better to use tailstube for the multiverse
I have base sonic at uni+ to low multi and super sonic at low complex multi
Dbs verse get humble by 2 hedgehog 💀
let's be real dragon ball author dnt care abt his own manga with such a trash powerscalling 😂😂😂
why is it that in dragon ball super universal level is what in dc comic would be considered barely multiversal or whatever
Bro you lowball goku and vegeta as they should be low complex multiversal because;
1. Living world has consistently been stated to have super dimensions which makes it 5D.
2. The afterlife transcends the mortal world and its dimensions metaphysically so 6D afterlife.
3. The afterlife can also be scaled to low outerversal since it is also stated to transcend the concept that is space and time.
Yup
Macrocosm is a 7D construct and people downplay it
Surfbone has debunked Outerversal Goku since the “Afterlife has no meaning concept of space & time” just means that Goku doesn’t have to worry about time in the Afterlife because he is dead. Surfbone explains it than I can.
@@bruceShine777 surfbone is a db downplayer and even says the timelines are 4D, dripsauce debunks his debunks.
If the Afterlife was Outerversal & beyond the concept of space & time, then why didn’t Goku just go back to his timeline when time to him is “irrelevant” yet he needed a Time Machine?
@@bruceShine777 Because he doesn't have the ability as most db characters are 3D beings with higher dimensional ki, also being capable of destroying a construct beyond dimensions doesn't necessarily mean you have the ability to travel through time just attack potency.
MUI Goju can be boundless(let me explain)
He literally shaked the world of void,by filling it with ki and then shaking it,so did jiren.
So yeah,Thats boundless.
W vid
Yo goji i can help your scale for goku , bc your scale for goku like 2017 type scalling
Putting infinite above Solaris is crazy ☠️
Like even he one shotted base sonic...that's still a base sonic, you can argue he got stronger but I don't believe he's as strong *as* Sonic 06 Super sonic when they fought Solaris across his past, present and future.
Solaris was threatening to destroy the timelines and possibly the multiverse to the point three super hedgehogs were needed to even defeat him, infinite literally doesn't even scale to him at all and I highly doubt he would scale to three super forms and a literal god of time at all.
I honestly think Solaris is still the strongest
Reason being
The End only destroys planets
If were to scale them higher we need more things about them
And I say this as well
Since Solaris all he needed to do was just exist and then everything is fucked
And Infinite is only like Sun level
There are villians more stronger
Like Erazor Djiin and Dark Gaia
At least those two work better
Sonic slams
The macrocosm from battle of gods contains a super dimensional realm being the dimension of lights... and you argue that with solaris.. so anyone scaling above the macrocosm would scale above solaris AP.
And dragon ball has fused zamasu scaling to the timeline and spreading to multiple others and goku believed he could beat him. Thats literally a stronger Solaris, existing all through time, merging with other timelines and timelines being infinitely greater than everything containing, which is atleast multiversal+ because you think the macrocosm is low multiversal.
Theres a surprising amount of info you either forgot, didnt see or ignored
This guy downplays dbz so badly. We just forgetting goku and vegeta can just force themselves through time? Like goku did it MULTIPLE TIMES against hit, and that was pre-TOP. Bare in mind by the end of the top goku in base is infinitely stronger than his ssbkkx10.
This kid just dick rides sonic and thinks he knows what hes talking about
He wasn't forcing himself into the future tard 💀
What editing software you use?
Capcut and I edit on my iPad
@@Goji-CDAMN
We have to update this now because as of Sonic X shadow Generations the Shadow sonic fought was a Shadow who was perfected by black doom. Shadow all this time actually wasn't finished and through his campaign you unlock his new black arms forms and power. And during the Sonic and Shadow fight he actually reframes from using his new power and tells Rouge that he will fight him on equal terms or not at all implying he was far far above Sonic.
Sonic is sweeping all of dragon ball, and goku is getting swept
Hes strong, sure
But can he beat a being that threatened infinite universes, and the entire sonic timeline? Hell nahh brutha 😭🙏
Wait don’t we all exist in the past present and future idk it’s a kinda wanly statement for immeasurable speed because I exist in the past the present and the future at the same time idk