How Elia Martell's Death Changed Oberyn & Created The Sand Snakes
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 ก.ค. 2024
- Oberyn Martell is undoubtedly one of the most badass characters in A Song of Ice and Fire and Game of Thrones, and his daughters, commonly known as the Sand Snakes, are almost as terrifying as he is. But how did the loss of Elia Martell make the Red Viper and the Sand Snakes who they are, and did Oberyn's determination to protect his daughters doom them instead?
Content Of This Video:
00:00 Intro
00:25 Oberyn, Elia, And House Martell's History
02:22 How Elia Defined Oberyn As A Father
04:33 Ad
06:47 How Elia's Death Made Oberyn A Bad Father
08:50 Hope For The Sand Snakes In The Future
12:44 Outro
Fanart Featured In This Video:
Oberyn & Elia by @amueliart / 1
Elia, Rhaenys, Aegon by Rae Lavergne - บันเทิง
This situation is what makes Ellaria Sands almost desperate begging for the Sand Snakes to just stop seeking revenge even more sad in my opinion. She asks who they're even going to target since everyone responsible is dead. Tywin is dead, Emory Lorch is dead, Clegane is dead. Who are they going to kill? Tommen and Myrcella? Children who have done nothing? Ellaria was rattled by Joffrey's death.
"Ellaria was rattled by Joffrey's death." Is this in the books from the wedding? It's been years since I read ASOS, so I'm genuinely interested in this
@@theduxabides9274 Yeah Ellaria was really disturbed by it. She described Joffrey as practically tearing his neck open to breathe and his face turning purple.
@@theduxabides9274 Yeah it's in the books
I never thought about how much Oberyn and Ned are similar, especially considering the circumstances that lead to the demise of both Elia and Lyanna. That brings the tragedy to a whole new level 🥺
Elia was too good for Rhaegar. 💁🏻♀️
Elia did seem like a genuinely decent person. Too good for Rhaegar, and too good for Westeros. 💔
Anyone is too good for Rhaegar. He is only a scumbag with main character complex.
Honestly it’s heartwarming to see how much of an effect Elia’s death had on her family. Especially in such a brutal world which often sees women as political pawns to be used and discarded.
Yeah I love that too, especially when so many other people seem to reflexively write her off because she was a woman or physically weak or wasn't "good enough" for Rhaegar's scrub ass.
@@HillsAliveYT right ? And if aegon is her kid why hasn’t he talked about once nothing of hers was given to him
This feels like a weird analysis flyingboat, the patriarchal feudal system brutally restricts everyone's autonomy and is especially unfair to women and girls but I don't really see the connection/trend between "how much insert family cares for family member" and "how much autonomy a family member has". For example: do you think Ned Stark loved/value/cared about Caitlyn Stark exponentially less than any random Dornish Lord did his Dornish Lady Wife? Or do you think that on average the Starks cared less about their family members than say, the Arryns because the Starks went 1000s of years without ever having a female ruler of Winterfell while the Arryns didn't.
@@j.a.6310 the point they're making is that the system which these people live in values women less. individuals can care about the women and girls all they like but the world itself does not, which is why how much one woman's loss has shaped the world and system which saw her as lesser is an important commentary.
@@BadgerPride89 Oh shit true I think I misunderstood flyingboat. I thought they were remarking on the significance of people caring about Elia in spite of the system not how Elia affected the system despite it not valueing her.
I’ve always thought Martian does a great job of showing how vengeance can break down someone and corrupt them from within had Obyren just killed the mountain instead of drawing out the fight he would have won in moments but don’t get me wrong the Mountain deserved every single of the vipers bites and so much more
I don't know how trial by combat work but Oberyn could have surrender as soon as he stabbed Gregor for the first time as the poison was already in his system
I think it makes it even sadder cause it seems like he's reliving his grief, he never truly moved on from his sister's death and that's why he lost cause he couldn't just end the life of the mountain without his confessing even though oberyn already knows its him. He just wanted one last closure and to make sure everyone knew who was responsible for his sister's death but it ended up costing him
@@nnuu7618 True to be fair I think we all would be traumatized if that happened to our sibling
@@jameer7565 I agree and for everyone around to act as if she wasn't a human being worthy of any sympathy just cause she was incredibly weak physically, practically everyone forgot about her. It's just sad oberyn had to die while avenging his sister, but it's also a good thing cause the mountain suffered alot afterwards.
Oberyn likely believed that the mountain would be unable to move due to the poison since it was meant to cause him great pain
Oberyn is one of the few characters that didn't hide the ball as to who he was. He kept it 110% with everybody that he hates the lannisters.
Yes totally agree loved oberyn he was a great character
Well yeah, he's a second son, he can afford to do that.
And it got him killed. Horribly too. Being like that isn't advisable if you want to live long in this world, it seems.
I LOVED Oberyn! They did his house so dirty in the show, especially Ellaria! It’s great to see some love and analysis for what he and the Sand Snakes are MEANT to be in the books.
Yes I'm still furious that dan a
And dave screwed house Martell in the show hopefully there will be a prequel series for the Martell family
I really hated how he treated Obara's mom. That was despicable.
@@jostockton. Yeah it was.
It is important to notice that how Ned and Oberyn handle their sisters death one is driven by revenge and other tried to be as rational as possible but end up with same result dooming their own life and their children as well as their kingdoms
Both went to the extremes and passed the trauma along.
Viserys too his teachings to his sister will doom her
@@wolfsbanealphas617 Agreed. A lot of fans just see the angry abusive man. They forget he was a child when the House fell. His sister was five when he became solely responsible for her after Ser Willem's death.
@@stacywhisenant6242 also theirs a theory that it was oberyn that killed set William through poison
The timing of his death and oberyon meeting him are to close together. If not him then people suggest varys to make viserys desperate if he’s always on the run he can’t get power.
I dont think Ive ever hated a fictional character as much as Gregor Clegane. Even Joffrey can be a hoot, but Gregor has absolutely no redeeming qualities at all. Even the Others are probably higher on the moral spectrum.
Glad to see someone finally point this out; for all that Dorne may be more egalitarian compared to thd rest of the kingdoms, the way that Oberyn took his daughters away from their families and trained them up to be part of his revenge plot shows the darker side of his character
What really hurts about Oberyn's loss is that he's such an interesting and accomplished man, he has a large family, daughters who love him and he risks all of that to kill an empty brute, a horrible man everyone hates, an act that does nothing to bring Elia back, no, it costs the life of a brother Elia undoubtedly loved and wouldn't have wanted to go out like that.
I think the show killed all of the sandsnakes because of the significant dislike they enjoyed. I reckon a few will survive in asoiaf.
Good shout that oberyn trained his daughters so they wouldn't be like elia. For some reason my mind never made that connection.
great analysis - i hadn't really thought of how the Starks and Martells are foils to each other, but now that you mention it, its super obvious! In addition to the similar stories of Lyanna and Elia, and the cold wasteland versus hot wasteland... yeah, there's definitely how Ned was killed in KL, and in response Robb wages an unwinnable war, devastating the Riverlands and killing a bazillion smallfolk, whereas when Oberyn is killed in KL, Doran seems to prioritize the children of the watergardens above everything else when deciding how to respond.
Moving forward... will Arya's quest for vengeance parallel the Sandsnakes? Will they be foils to each other? Neither Sarella nor Elia Sand seem consumed by vengeance at the moment - will that change? (Ellaria did predict that the older Sand Snakes would get themselves killed seeking vengeance, and the younger ones would try to avenge them...)
I like the Arya/Sand Snakes connection! And I would expect that at least one of the older Sand Snakes will die but I also think that some of them will survive and realize that revenge isn't what matters, which is presumably what will happen with Arya too.
@@HillsAliveYT tbh that is the reason why I think that Book Arya will die, I think while Ned and Oberyn are foils to each other, Arya will mirror Oberyns Death in some way. Not dying in seeking Vengeance, as Oberyn did, but dying after she safed everyone from Daenerys. I still believe you are right, Arya will kill daenerys, but that doesn't mean that she will survive that. Ellaria mentions in the Books that she wants the Circle of Violence to end, so that her Daughters won't be killed in it. I think Aryas Death will end the Circle of Violence for the surviving Starks. Which I still hope won't come true, I mean that Arya dies.
In my most recent Head Canon, Arya killed Daenerys, Missandei is coming in and Arya kills her too. She takes Missandeis Face and burns her and Daenerys so that no one can recognize them, puts Needle in Missandeis Hand, and flees from Westeros as Missandei. But not before she is sure that neither one of her Siblings try to avenge her. She knows that none of them will survive a Life of Vengeance, she knows from experience how destructive that Way of Life is, she won't let that happen to their Siblings and so she will break the Circle of Violence for her Siblings.
Hey, it was Tywin who devastated the Riverlands. Robb only terrorized the smallfolk of the Westerlands.
Rhaegar gets no excuses. He abandoned his wife and 2 children
#Robertdidnothingwrong
@@PedroLucas-mg5je when it came to Rhaegar, yes
@@PedroLucas-mg5je agreed
I've always wanted to know more about Ellia. She always was such a tragic horrific victim of War.
You are so right about the starks and Martells being quite similar I really hate how dan and dave ruined the Martell family in the show even though I enjoyed oberyn and his paramour on the show I hated the sand snakes and how doran was portrayed on the show in the books he is very different
Personally don't like Oberyn as person but I love him as a character.
Most of the fandom kind of ignores the things he's done like what he did to Obaras mother, he can seem like a great father and I'd say he is to the sand snakes but he probably has like 100 more that kids he hasn't met.
I wonder what his relationship with Quentin was like, did he apologise for causing his fostering or anything?.
I'm not really sure why he would have to apologize to Quentyn. Fostering is normal within Westrosi culture. Only Quentyn's mother seemed to take umbrage with his fostering. If you mean, does Oberyn feel some sort of guilt for his brother's unofficial divorce? That, we cannot be sure of.
Honestly, I feel Oberyn would like Quent. He was close to Doran, after all.
So I think he'd mostly just push Quentyn into not being such a doormat.
Excuse me but on a TOTALLY unrealeted note: is there really a soldier behind Oberyn while fighting the mountain who stands absolutely outrageously relaxed AS a soldier 😅
No matter the subject of discussion and no matter the show, your videos are always entertaining.
Robert was Ned's best friend so Ned couldn't become like Oberyn & turn against Robert, whom he loved like a brother. Ned also had Jon, a living reminder & piece of Lyanna to raise which likely tempered his rage. Oberyn did not have any of Elia's children (beyond a doubt) there with him afterward to help ground him in his grief.
As for Oberyn not teaching his daughters that the pathway to vengeance is often perilous to those doing the avenging, other houses also teach their heirs similar themes or mantras. Look at the Lannisters, known for "a Lannister always pays their debts" and the story behind the Rains of Castamere which the Lannisters take pride in. Several houses throughout Westeros are also famed for their rivalries or wars with one another.
Overall, I think Oberyn wanted his daughters to be strong in a world that isn't forgiving or chivalrous toward women. Simply because they're born a woman doesn't mean their gender shields them from dying like a man (or even worse). I think the sheer (beyond brutal) trauma that Elia and her children with Rhaegar endured in their final moments unmade him & he clearly never forgave himself for failing to protect her and those kids. So I think he went to extremes to ensure that none of his daughters were inequipped with the skillsets they'd need to fight with in that world. Albeit there's more than 1 way to fight, but Oberyn clearly showed them the only method he trusted the most to bring about his justice (which you call vengeance).
Little Finger was right about the GOT universe when he said, "there's no justice in the world, less we make it". Oberyn tried his best to have justice for Elia and the children, but alas, he just couldn't make it happen (unlike Sansa did with Ramsey). I hope his daughters can make it happen in some way or another
👏🏻
I feel like a running theme amongst the Dornish is using your children as tools and putting them in dangerous situations. Oberyn turned his daughters into weapons, Doran sends both his kids to dangerous missions, and back when Aegon was king, the prince of Dorne (or was it princess? I forget) sent his own daughter to give Aegon the letter informing Rhaenys's fate.That could be seen as a way to communicate that the fighting must be ceased, but still that was a huge risk.
Oberyn trains his daughters and fills them with hate to make them strong, and Doran manipulates his daughter and pretends to be weak to make Arianne strong and rebellious. I would love to hear your thoughts on Doran and his supposed "master plan".
Actually I already sorta did a video about Doran's master plan! th-cam.com/video/wYGVxOvjZms/w-d-xo.html
@@HillsAliveYT oh sht, I didn't realize, thanks!
I'm rewatching GOT and I'm halfway through season five, and it's so hard to watch the Sand Snakes and Ellaria. So hard.
Yeah they really went hard left with their characters, I mean them killing Trystane was a "WTF did you even read the books bro" moment.
Awesome analysis! That "Girl Dad Vibe" line rang loud! He could have been a better grandfather than father?
Right now this is one of my favorite channels. I never know what take hills alive will have on things but i always know it will be interesting to hear
Reading the books I was honestly concerned if Martin has some sort of hate boner for Elia. She’s often pushed to the side and lots of characters needlessly hate on her I.e Dany, Jon Connington who know doubt influenced Young Griff to be an Elia hater. And by extension Tywin and the Mountain for what they did to her.
And the fandom also needlessly hate on her because she’s the major obstruction from people’s perception of the great love story between Lyanna and Rhaegar. Because love stories tend not to involved adultery and the brutal murder of the adulterer’s wife. So fans either passify her as this accepting and weak victim who saw no problems in their relationship and the political turmoil it would have caused or they just completely ignore her to make themselves feel better for loving the Rhaegar and Lyanna ‘romance’
I truly believe if Rhaegar and Lyanna had lived, I think any interest Rhaegar would have had in Lyanna would have completely diminished upon seeing how brutally his wife and kids were murdered. And the same for Lyanna as well, she would have been horrified at her father and brother’s deaths. So even if Lyanna and Rhaegar had this grand beautiful romance it probably would have been very brief.
It seems to me that Rhaegar never really intended to make his relationship with Lyanna permanent. My theory is that he intended to keep his marriage to Elia permanent but use other women to give him his Visenya. If Lyanna couldn’t do it he probably would have found someone else. I feel like in some capacity he actually cared for Elia in the long term more than her ever did for Lyanna. Him not wanting to kill Elia for the sake of another baby but having no issue doing it to Lyanna seems to speak of his true character.
Honestly justice for both Lyanna and Elia, they are more than archetypes in a grand love story. They are characters outside of Rhaegar.
I wouldn't say him not wanting kill the princess of one of the seven kingdoms , through another child, shows that he particularly cared about her. Also I doubt he thought lyanna would die from child birth.
Only 732 likes? Now 733. This channel deserves Much More Engagement. It's the best SOIAF channel, imo.
this is the sort of video that make your channel a must watch for anyone interested in this.
Watching your videos is the highlight of my day! I'm catching up on the books atm and it's so fascinating to read them while keeping in mind your analysis. It adds an extra layer to the characterization.
Rhaegar deserved worse.
Love oberyn as a topic
Love your videos! Thanks for doing these.
absolutely loving the accelerated upload schedule
I love Eia and in a few of the fan fictions I write she is either resurrected or is rescued .It makes me sad indeed ,see i lost my lil sis when I was 4 yrs old and she was 2 .First time i heared of Elia and her little ones fate I was a mix of anger and sadness,To be sure the mountain does not live long in the fan fictions I write ,.
Shame on the show for not using the Dorne lot right, shame on Dumb & Dumber for not giving Dorne the time in screen that It needed
Thank you for your hard work ❤ i really like your content
All ur vids are high quality no matter the topic, bless
Excellent video! We see this theme of vengeance for the dead taking precedence over protecting the living reflected in Quentyn's storyline too. I JUST read one of his later ADwD chapters right before watching this and he is very hung up on making the deaths of his friends who helped get him to Meereen "mean something," rather than protecting himself and his companions and preventing even more pointless deaths. Silly, silly Frog...
(I am already aware of what happens to Quentyn in the next ADwD chapters of his that I haven't read yet. So feel free to allude to this in replies to this comment if desired.)
This is brilliant! I've read ASOIAF at least 5 times+Feast is currently my favourite, precisely because it deals with psychology (of minor characters) on the deepest level (that's my jam😎), but it's never ever occurred to me to compare Oberyn&Ned/the Sand Snakes&the Stark kids, although the parallels have been screaming at the reader since book 1 !!! Damn, Elya&Lya even died for the same bloke! I must've been blind!😁🧡
Your videos always make my day ♥️👌 would you ever consider analysing the Tullys? They don't get a lot of attention despite how interesting they are, both as individual characters and historically as a house
Totes! It would be fun to do a dive into all of the houses I like or are super relevant to the story like I did with the whole Hightower overview thing.
@@HillsAliveYT
And the fact that some of them are named after literal Muppets, lol
@@OcarinaSapphr- why not
Also, again, it shouldn't matter whether or not Elia knew about the prophecy or was just fine with him having a lover on the side so long as her own children were unaffected because that's irrelevant to the fact she was left at the mercy of her insane racist father-in-law who went around burning people alive without even the illusion of protection while compared to Lyanna, who was stuck in the middle of nowhere with THREE kingsguard members. Like surely, Rhaegar knew at the very least that whether Lyanna gives birth to the third head of the dragon, the two other heads had to be safe right? So why not just send Sir Whent or Sir Gerold or Ser Lewis or someone else to King's Landing so at least then you could say that Rhaegar tried to keep Elia and their children alive but no, only 16-year-old Jaime who couldn't leave Aerys side was there.
Sorry, that always pissed me off about the whole thing.
Totes, while I doubt that she was cool with any of the shit that Rhaegar did, even if she for some bizarre ass reason condoned him running off with a teenager and creating a potential succession crisis by attempting polygamy, she sure as hell did not consent to being trapped with her unhinged father-in-law in a life-or-death situation.
@@HillsAliveYT Exactly (it’s not to me because she’s Dornish but the fact she can’t do much as a woman in this primitive society if her husband does take a mistress or second wife) and it’s not like Rhaegar didn’t know any of this. He was at King’s Landing to talk to Jamie and let’s not forget he knows of f’cked up his dad is and how he has a penchant for burning people alive and gets off to violence and death and whose to say Elia or their children be safe from that especially if Aerys becomes paranoid of them? Having a guard there for them was basic logic at that point.
I don't sending other guards would help much, and I'm not even sure if he could.
Thoughts on Doran and Oberyn's relationship? We know from Arianne that Doran summoned Oberyn to the Watergardens super often... but we don't know what they talked about; for all we know it was shouting matches, or Doran nagging Oberyn to stay out of trouble. I guess I'm just suspicious because when Doran talks about how close he was to Oberyn (the "it is the grass that hides the viper from his enemies and shelters him until he strikes. Your father and I worked more closely than you know" quote), he's saying it to get the Sand snakes on his side. He has every incentive to lie in that moment.... is there any other evidence that the brothers are super close? He stopped Arianne from eloping with Willas Tyrell once, presumably on Doran's orders... does Oberyn really mention his brother ever?
Doran's character is such an enigma... with every fact about him, its like "well, supposedly that's true; all the characters think its true..."
I think they're probably very Ned and Brandon-ish, like I think they legitimately loved each other but their personality types obviously contrast quite a lot.
@@HillsAliveYT Do you think Doran and Oberyn were actually working on the same master plan together? Or did Doran lie completely about being the grass to get the sandsnakes on his side?
I always wondered if Martin was going to do something with the character of Elia Sand, as she is brought up and singled out among the sand snakes early and often. Oberyn's relationship with her also seemed defined by the tragedy of her namesake to the point of suffocating her, and their relationship seemed more complicated than that of Oberyn with his other daughters. It makes me wonder if she'll become a turning point of some sort in the fate of the sand snakes, as she's already a pretty obvious foil to her aunt Elia. Just food for thought.
You deserve more view...
Here’s my question is Doran trying to kill off his family
yeah I've wondered that too... best case scenario, Arianne will be held hostage to force Doran to act; there's no possible way the Quentyn Quest could end well, and even if Doran underestimated how much of a warzone Meereen would be, he had to know the Stepstones were pirate-infested and could easily kill half of Quentyn's party; Nym and Tyene at KL (so if Doran's Arianne-gamble pays off and Aegon triumphs, Nym and Tyene might be stuck in a city getting sacked...)
I thought the Doran's thinking might be "its not fair for me to send someone else's kid off to fight my war; im going to put my money where my mouth is and risk my own family"... but like, Westeros has a feudal structure... if all the Martell heirs get killed off, then there's going to be a succession crisis which will cause a war, and Doran has to be smart enough to realize that. Plus... Doran doesn't seem to like his kids much? He's barely seen Quentyn in years; Arianne is bitter about how Doran always wanted Oberyn to visit, but not her; I don't think we ever see Doran interact with Trystane? So i dunno.
I don't think so, I can't remember who I saw that said it this way but I think Doran's major problem is that he's a chess player who doesn't realize that his pieces are people and therefore won't always do what he wants or expects them to do, which is a lesson he's going to learn pretty brutally pretty soon.
@@HillsAliveYT thanks for responding and I never knew that
Sarella is the best hope- she's off learning magic in Oldtown.
I was a fan of the TV show for years but just started reading the novels last year and it's pretty crazy how much different the Dornish plot is in the book vs the TV show and it's one of the few adaptation choices that I can't wrap my head around. Sure it makes sense that sometimes the show would combine characters or even leave some out but completely removing Arianne Martell and Arys the Kingsguard of Myrcella and instead sending Jaime to Dorne with Bronn is just mind-boggling, I don't get why they made that choice. Like what were they thinking, they fucked it up so much that they just had to kill off everyone in season 6 and 7 because they didn't know what to do with them. So ok you leave out Griff and Young Griff, I don't get it but ok, you can still just have Arianne/Doran's plot but this time make it about them supporting Dany as a way to get their revenge instead of murdering an innocent girl with no cause like Elaria Sand does in the show. Send Jaime to Riverrun in season 5 instead of season 6 and flesh out that plot line more. I get that the books were hard to adapt because there were so many characters but damn, it really sucks what they did with Dorne. I think they put themselves in a pretty hard spot by leaving out so many characters but the way they tried to get out of it was just terrible. I'm not even 20% done with a Dance with Dragons but I already feel like there was more than enough material for them to have a 2 season Dornish plot line even without Young Griff existing. Shit Arianne Martell is a POV character too, I just cant wrap my head around why she isn't on the show. Did they leave out any other POV characters? I can't think of any right now.
However their story goes, it won’t be as bad as the way their arcs were butchered by D&D 🤡
Well there's really nowhere to go but up.
@@HillsAliveYT Yep. Have had fun fan-imagining the end of the story (I don't think Dream will ever come out) and for House Martel.......well......not only do the Sand Snakes (and the true Ellaria) survive, AND Myrcella joins Dorne, but when at the end the seven kingdoms break up, Dorne is left in a pretty powerful position, and it becomes clear Arianne and Sansa will be allies!
Poor Oberyn
3:02 How does Robert have any fault in Lyanna's death? He didn't do anything until Aerys called for his head.
I feel like Oberyn took his daughters and trained them to be fierce warriors because he couldn’t stand the fact that Elia could not defend herself since girls are not taught how to fight in Westeros. He wanted to make sure nothing that happened to Elia could happen to more female relatives of his, especially his daughters.
I made this comment before watching the video 😂
A related question: if Doran gets a good look at fAegon and doesn't really believe it's him, does he still support him? Or does he support Daenerys with the hopes of Quentyn marrying her (assuming Q isn't ash)?
My interpretation of Oberyn is that he was not strong exactly, but just strong enough and super smart and capable to make up for not being the strongest, mostly by way of his determination to avenge Elia. The Martells are repeatedly mentioned to be on the smaller side. Not big giant types like the Northmen. I'm not sure about the books, but show Oberyn is supposed to be different and very caring of girls and women so I'm not sure of the significance of Obara's mother.
I feel that if anyone doomed the Sand Snakes and maybe even house Martell it was Doran. Doran's caution and planning had them miss many opportunities for revenge. Had the Dornish allied with Stannis or Robb they could have taken revenge on the Lannisters and Oberyn would probably still be alive. Doran's idea of keeping his secrets too close to the chest also alienates himself from his daughter. Had he been open and trusted her a lot of things would have played out differently for the Martells.
Oberyn was outstanding the sand snakes was on another level of just bad… Pablo pascal really made you feel his pain…
I feel House Martell is doomed.
You should have left this one till last (this year) considering his actor is playing Joel from the last of us in a month.
And he got Little Bear with him.
These hot pics of Pedro Pascal tho 😍
i believe young griff is reaghar and lyannas son
Elia isn't a real person, Oberyn isn't a real person, this is a bad change from the books because they wanted to show off the actors (they're Indira Varma fanboys) and wanted to rush the ending. It's just bad writing. Don't look for in-universe reasons.
One thing I’ve noticed about your analyses is that you use modern standards and the standards of the time to suit your narrative, but don’t consistently stick to one or the other. Oberryn keeping his illegitimate daughters, training them, and protecting them is far beyond what would be expected at the time. Spinning that by saying he separated them from their mothers is failing to see that, on balance, he did them a favor and most mothers of the time Should, if they cared about their daughters welfare, welcome them under his protection. (I realize this sounds silly by modern standards, but it’s clearly a noble act by medieval standards)
So many people suffered so that the prince that was promised could be born. A small price to pay so that world can be safe from the long night.
Stannis: What is the life of one bastard boy against a kingdom?
Davos: *Everything.*
Good joke, old sport.
Tbh I think Elia was not the helpless Person Oberyn believed she was. Rhaegar was not a loving Husband, he was obsessed with Prophecy and tried to bring the Prince that was promised into this World. So I think it is safe to assume that he wanted to have another Heir and Elia somehow managed to either keep him out of her Bed or used Moontea ... I think the last thing is more likely. So after some time he de decided to find a better Birthmachine, that's why he persuaded Lyanna and unfortunately for Lyanna her really deep antipathy against Robert Baratheon and his Way of Life, played into Rhaegars Plans. Just because someone doesn't know how to fight, doesn't mean they are Helpless.
In terms of the Sandsnakes surviving the upcoming Wars, I think it is likely that some of them will. For example, Doran took into custody every Sand Snake he could get, which excluded 1 of Oberyns Daughters. That is Sarella Sand, who is in Old Town and Doran says he can nothing do about it and hopes she shows more sense than her Sisters. She does, IF Alleras is really Sarella Sand, I think Sarella is one of the Sand Snakes who will survive. Mostly because she isn't involved in that Circle of Violence, which Ellaria herself says she is afraid will kill her Daughters as well. In the Chapters GRRM posted on his Not-A-Blog we learn that Ellaria's Daughter Elia accompanies Arianne to meet with Aegon, Obella is a Cupbearer in Sun Spear and Dorea remains in the Water Gardens. Only the youngest Loreza is allowed to accompany her Mother to her Father's (Lord Uller) Castle Hellholt. So I think the two youngest Daughters are safe, although Doran keeps 2 of them, as Hostage, because he probably fears that Ellaria will seek Vengeance. Although I think Ellaria won't do that, she wants an End, because she realized that Vengeance only kills those she loves.
Sarella on the other Hand is nearly 20, but from what I took from the Prolog Chapter and her appearance in a Samwell Chapter, it looks like she is more interested in following her own Dreams which I think is becoming a Maester. They celebrate the third Link of Alleras Chain, in that Prolog. It is also mentioned that Alleras is only at the Citadel for a year. So I think Sarella knows what happens in the World, but she decided to not participate in it and instead learn more at the Citadel because she knows that at some point someone will discover that she is a Girl and she will be expelled. I think she follows the example of the Hightowers and tries to stay out of the public Eye and adapting to the Situation instead of taking Action herself until it is necessary.
Don't forget that Sarella is the one who approaches Sam on Marwin's behalf. She knows about the dragons&the others. I'm sure she's got more on her mind than only becoming a maester. Yes,she's intellectual, but she's too adventurous and passionate to live such a passive life (just like daddy!🙂). Also, there's a faceless man on a mission in her close circle and Euron the hellraiser is about to invade! She might live through it, but she's definitely in grave danger.
@@notdeadjustyet8136 She is intellectual and to smart to trust her scheming Uncle. Also she is to smart to jump into the Adventures she likes, without thinking it through. Maybe one of the Reasons why her Character wasn't in the show although she is popular at least for the Book-Fans. I think that is the Reason why she is on the Citadel, she wants to learn from the Past. I never said she is not adventurous but I also think that she wants to be a maester, but sooner or later they will realize she is a Girl and we all know that no Girls are aloud in the Citadel, Marwyn doesn't care if she is a Girl or not, he thought Miri Maaz Duur about Healing and the common Tongue, so Marwyn doesn't care if she is a Girl or a boy, and if Sarella lives with him in the Rookery, he knows she is a Girl.
1 :D