Intonation Exercises For The Violin - Part 1
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 ต.ค. 2024
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The topic Intonation was suggested in the comments. So please feel free to ask everything about the violin or what you want in the comments. It maybe will take time, but I write all the suggestions down and make a video about it!
In this video I give you some general practicing tips for Intonation. Since I was very hungry in this video, in the end I lost my patience with my english and had to go to eat. :D
Like and subscribe, if you want to support me!
Have fun playing music!
My Facebook: / simon.streuff
You know for someone who does not have a teacher (me!) your tips are wonderful. Thanks so much for your time and effort for posting this!!
Thank you I appreciate your words! It takes some time to do these videos, but I feel they are needed and some people can benefit from them. But first of all it's fun for me to talk about, what is my passion for so long!
Your passion and mine (and countless others!). BTW - don't try to explain your violin passion to a non-musician... they don't "get" it. OMG, I found a violinist I can talk to and ask questions to! I don't know any other violinist. You are my new found friend :-) You will hear from me again.
Hi! I want to tell you how impressed I am when someone can speak English and it’s not their first language. Please... never get a negative feeling if you make mistakes with your English... all English speaking people do make mistakes... even if it’s our only language. Ha ha
Much respect to you... and your ability to communicate in more than one language! It’s amazing to me!!
Much Love and fun to you in your future.
Das war die beste Erklärung, wie man Noten trifft, die ich je gehört habe. Selbst mein Lehrer konnte es nicht so gut erklären. Gleich abonniert.
Brilliant advice..... My violin is oscillating like a roller-coaster, been playing 4 days!!!!!!! Thanks for posting
Thank you so much! More is on the way. But in the form of an online course. You can find my course on intonation on the violin on violinshortcuts.com
Sie sind wunderbar Musikanter!!!! Bravo, mein Herr!
Your videos are fantastic. Thank you. You offer an approachable way to difficult problems.
I really like this video because it repeats, in various ways, the importance of the ear in getting good sound. If you're fortunate enough to have an ear that works well, that's more important than your fingers or, in the case of singing, your singing muscles.
The human brain is really good at refinement, as long as the right kind of information is coming in. For example, throwing a ball from one hand, very high into the air, and catching it in the other hand, without having to move the feet. If you practice this enough, you will probably become better and better at it (wind notwithstanding). The reason you become better at it is obvious: you either catch the ball or you don't. It's a yes-or-no feedback loop. But with intonation, it's not yet-or-no. No one is perfect, so there's no perfect "yes". And "no" is variable, from "very good" to "wayyy off". If you have a couple hands with good dexterity, then the bottleneck at first is the ear. Train your ear to know if you're catching that ball or not. If not, keep moving. The principal still applies.
And don't be discouraged. If you're trying for a while and it's still not right, it's still music. Dance to it, if you can. This fine intonation rule is such a small sliver of human music, anthropologically speaking. Get down with your bad self.
Very good comment! About the hands with good dexterity though I have to say, that one can improve that too with finding the right finger pressure (less pressure usually) so that the left hand is able to react faster and more nuanced. But the guidance of the ear is really the main key!
@@SimonStreuffViolinEducation The senses are so often overlooked in cursory explorations of the arts. Most good painters are experts in seeing and imagining. Most good chefs are experienced in tasting. Learning to hold a brush or stir with a spoon is a tiny part of it. It's the self-criticism that creates the sort of heuristic feedback loop.
Listening is important even in fretted strings, as pressure and finger position can influence the pitch. But in the violin and other fretless instruments, there's just nowhere to hide, is there?
The risk and reward go hand-in-hand of course. I studied the drums for a while (typical Western drumset), and my drum teacher told me his favorite instrument was the violin because it's so expressive. That's a drum teacher, saying that.
A very good teacher...
Thank you so much!
Hi Simon. What do you think about repeating notes to understand the interval and train the ear?
Im a beginner (1 year playing) but one exercise that really boosted my intonation was the following exercise: Pick a scale and a metronome, and play 2 notes repeated, for example in the G scale, you play four quarter notes slurred G-A-G-A (down and up bown), then you play eight notes GA-GA-GA-GA, then repeat with the next notes, A-B-A-B, AB-AB-AB-AB, and so on.
It will take a while to do the complete scale but I tought it was a great exercise for ear training and finger placement also.
you are absolutely right. I can go into this in the second part. Basically it is always important to practice back and forth, because playing and correcting once and then playing on further will result in a sloppy intonation, which isn't spot on from the beginning. Thanks for the comment!
Thanks this really helps with my intonation on my violin 😁
Thank you teacher, God bless you and more subscribers to come.. I like your teachings.
Keep in memory that all perfect intervals are not compatible between them! One perfect octave divided by 12 have smaller half tons in comparison with the 7 half tones in the perfect fifth. Then it's not useful to use check points with perfect intervals! Only the unison must stay perfect. All other intervals must be tempered to stay in tune! The octave also must be stretched. How much? Your ear will decide! Also for your empty strings-E string can be in perfect fifth with A string because of the metallic structure. When you practice E string will be hotter and lower or the fifth with A string will become naturally narrow. We must try to tune D string maximum high and the same for G string. This way permit to have smaller half tons and to be compatible and in tune with the piano or other tempered instruments.
I agree with you in most parts. For solo pieces for example from Bach it is in my opinion best to tune and play pure intervals with the open strings. But it depends on the situation and taste (I for Example have tho lower fifths always a little narrower than perfect). So from a violinistic point of view playing pure in regards to the open strings makes totally sense, as we have the freedom to change that regarding the situation. But you are right, that that will not work if you prepare for playing with other instruments in the same extend as with solo pieces. But also here we have the open strings, which we kind of have to relate to when we play pure intervals (double stops) with them. It is the definition of "in tune" in what our opinion differ I think. I think that the definition of "in tune" is much broader, but also much more subtle than many people think. But the points you make are all viable in theory with the exception of the steel E argument. Maybe you have information that I don't have, but in my experience the non steel strings, like from the A downwards have the from you described tendency to drop in tuning when we play and warm them up. Especially for gut strings that is a fact. So the effect you mentioned would be reverse, because the dropping of a steel E in tuning has never occurred to me in such a way, that it would be more noticeable than the lower non steel strings. When I play in string quartet we violins use equal temperament and tune D and G high and E low. Otherwise the violins open E would not come together well with the open C of viola and cello. But still when there are harmonies, the pure intervals are in my opinion to be played pure and in relation to the open strings. Things change, when you have a piano to play with, I will give you that. But then on the other hand, 99% of the Pianos are out of tune, so that we couldn't come far with rigid rules, but have to use our ear and intuition to fit in anyways.
But as I said. All your points are viable in theory.. except that with the E-String maybe.. and you articulated more information in very clear fashion in very few sentences. You must know what you are talking about! I am curious to know your profession, or instrument you play. Best regards and thank you for your comment.
@@LatchezarDimitrov That is Armenian music, I love it! I played Khachaturian violin concerto in my final exam in university. The second movement of it has the most haunting melodies! But very sad story about Armenia and the people... I checked your channel yesterday. It is great! I Enjoy your playing very much.
@@LatchezarDimitrov always beauty above pure, that's for sure. Some places shine more, if played slightly "out of tune". The idea is great. Luckily there is some room for interpretation of intonation on the violin. Otherwise it would be too hard. But I find that very good violinists, also seem to have very good concepts of intonation, so educating oneself is a good thing. I think if we develop these fine hearing habits, we will sound much better in the end regardless for what system we follow. In the end being able to adjust these details is also a great skill to have. I have seen and heard musicians who have great theory but simply play out of tune still. Simply because they don't understand how subtle the changes should actually be. One question about your channel: Do you make your own backing tracks? Keep it up man! I subscribed!
@@LatchezarDimitrov You are right, that the metal E conduct better the warmth but it is also much less prone to change in structure, in this case expanding. Your backing tracks are nice. I know that it is much work, I used to do it in the past too. I especially liked your accompaniment you had for the Bach Solo Piece from G-minor Sonata. Was it your arrangement or is it a popular one?
@@LatchezarDimitrov Damn I am blind ;), I was impressed with the harmonizing, but well, Schumann had skills. Your editing is on point, whatever you do, you do it well, also nice sound on the violin. Where do you get your playbacks then? From these TH-cam channels with playbacks? I used to do covers with guitar and violin, but I only play guitar when I am out of ideas on the violin.
You are a great violinist and musician. I love when I see musicians staying active and productive even in later stages of life. Have you played in an orchestra? I see your technique is very good. Have a good day!
Hey simon, just wanted to tell you that some weeks ago i watched this video, and started to do the hand frame thing (first and 4rth finger awareness), and it improved my intonation too much, i was stuck in a plateau a lot of time because my intonation was always inconsitent no matter what, but not anymore thanks to this. Thanks!!
That is great to hear! Sometimes a simple idea can bring you a step further on the violin. That is why it is important to continue learning, reading and listening!
App PitchAssist helps intonation, try it.
Fantastic! wonderful summary of practice tools. Thank you for sharing.
thank you!
Well done! You cover a lot of ground in a very clear fashion.
Thank you! I try my best!
Excellent Simon. C'est vrai.
Wow, man thanks for the video.
thank you for the question ;)
SimonS7r ha man. Ready for part2!
Good Job, man. This really helped me!
Wow what a teacher 😉😃
Thank you :)
"and play sloooooooooooooooooooooowly" :-D Thanks for the video !
Simon,
Seeing your TH-cam video on tuning your violin, I saw that you mentioned that Just Tuning instead of Equal Temperament tuning should be used. This lead me to a number of articles and youtube posts on the subject. So what works fine for monophony may not work for polyphony, in particular some double stops like 5th versus 6th intervals and whether the violin is being accompanied with fixed temperament instrument or not. Then the interesting subject of one section of the ensemble playing the chords using Just Temperament and the soloist using Pythagorean Temperament.
So how does this all boil down to practical guidelines for the student learning to play the violin, in particular intonation training - or perhaps this is the life long obsession of the violinist? The student may use a tuner not just for establishing the tuning of the G, D, A and E strings but also for helping with particular notes for a particular melody - use the tuner as an aid, or simply listen to the intervals and adjust to what “sounds” the best.
The temperament names come in all sorts of flavours, with some perhaps having the same shifts from equal temperament but different names.
For instance I have installed a tuner on my mobile phone called Strobe Tuner v1.4 (Android Operating System) which has the following temperaments:
Equal
Pythagorean Augmented 4th
Pythagorean Diminished 5th
5-limit symmetric 1
5-limit symmetric 2
5-limit asymmetric
Quarter-comma meantone Aug 4th
Quarter-comma meantone Dim 5th
Kirnberger II
Kirnberger III
Werckmeister III
where all of the above except the first require selection of a key to work in. I have tried some with the violin and just got more confused and decided to tune the strings in equal 5ths then adjust the intonation for the other notes so it sounded good - rather subjective but I guess it depends on the particular melody being played and the original composer’s intensions.
So far I have not seen any sheet music with the composer indicating what Tuning Temperament to use.
I thought this would be a good topic for you to cover in one of your TH-cam videos.
Regards,
Norman Freund
Thanks for your very interesting and nicely researched comment!
I personally are not an expert in the different tuning systems. I basically know some details about the equal temperament and the perfect temperament. And I too sometimes get the impression that different names mean the same thing...
With intonation there is on one hand not much room to argue about, either you are in tune or you are not. We should leave that to our ears to decide, especially when we play in larger ensembles with differently tuned instruments. I think it is always important as a violinist to be in tune with the lower registers of the ensemble. if one plays second violin there is sometimes much more room for expressive intonation like harmonic leading notes for example. In a melody one always should look at the harmonies and adjust to that, even if melodically one would play different.
This topic is actually more science than music and I would keep it very basic since we want to play music and not spend too much time with confusing ourselves with stuff that others study for years.
I would advice to usually tune your instrument with perfect fifths as I say in the video. If you want to experiment with equal temperament, use a equal tuner and tune your open strings like that. They will then from the get go sound "out of tune" if you play them together as double stops. The advantage of tuning equal temperament is that your open G-string is in tune with other equally tuned instruments. Maybe one can find a compromise in between. Or tuning depending on the situation well tempered for ensemble with other well tempered instruments and perfect fifths for solo works which have a lot of open strings involved in double stops.
I personally find that perfect intonation improves the resonance of the instrument, while equal intonation make the instruments sound more flat and... equal. Both have their reasons.
Regarding other temperaments: They are as far as I know kind of poplar with old pianos and organums, Kirnberger II Kirnberger III Werckmeister III for example. But I do think, they are more a niche thing but interesting to look at or listen to. They are more an step in the development of different tunings and rarely used today.
Most instruments go out of tune so easily after hours or days or even during a concert, that all this theory is relative in the end.. :) a good equal temperament is beautiful and a good base for everything. A good perfect intonation is great for string quartet or solo pieces in some keys at least...
Yaaay New subscriber here 😇
Thank you so much for the tips
You are welcome! Thanks for subscribing!
I play Guitar, Banjo,Mandolin and Bass. 26 years. do you think i have an advantage starting the viola? Is it an awkward transition?
I will answer your question in a video I just uploaded
I play mandolin and violin. I picked up the mandolin after the violin; I found the mandolin to be extremely useful for intonation (it's in tune or very close to it), and great for left finger position.
Bowing might be hard to learn.
can you do a video about slurring across multiple strings? I always have a "sloppy" sound when crossing strings with slurs
that's an interesting topic! I will cover it in my series "bow like a pro" :D. Thanks for the suggestion!
SimonS7r i think my problem is bow and fingers, when i cross strings I guess my finger is not pressing the new string down yet, but I've tried putting the finger down before the string cross, then it hits the string im playing on already and causes a harmonic sound.
Yes, that is one common problem, but there are cures to this disease! ;) For example practice in double stops. I will go into detail in a video!
EXACTLY CORRECT - However, simple double stops MUST come first before scales! Setting the octave of the hand must come first in order that all other fingers have a foundational framework to work within. All done with NO vibrato; imitate a fine clarinet.
It could be ideal... in theory. But in reality the average student struggles with bowing on two strings at the same time more than with a simple scale. Slow scales are pretty easy. If you talk about 3 or 4 Octave scales I agree: double stops definitely before that. In other cases it depends on the age and ability of the student.
I disagree. Fiddle players and beginners almost always start off playing two strings. Its harder to play one string. However, I am talking about, for example, D and A, then D and B, D and C#, and then D and D octave 3rd finger. Open string fifths and 3rd finger octaves are critical for developing the hand and ear, learning about beats vs pure tone. You can't start too young to show, tell and talk about all these. Don't underestimate kids!
@@SarumChoirmaster Saw your comment rather late I guess. You are right, that we should never underestimate kids. I also don't think I do so. The double stops you mention are indeed easy to realize. But I also disagree with your statement, that playing on one string is harder than playing two strings: One string has a range of angles of the bow arm, two strings is a fixed angle. For some it's easy, for some impossible to bow on two strings without losing one or the other regularly.
I think although it may sound blatant, that there is no "MUST" in education. You always have to adapt to your student. You are right about the beats vs pure tone, which is important to experience early and demand pure tone from a student. An occasional checking of the third finger with lower open string is a routine I teach all my students. But some hear it better played separately, some prefer listening to the beats vs pure tone.
I appreciate the input and sorry for the late answer.
trying for chromatic over two weeks but cannot get it. After two octaves, I am always a half step short. Should I put the finger guide tape until I get it right?
Chromatic scales are hard! But also good ear training. The half steps are not "as small as possible". In first position especially we have to think a little bit like a cellist or base player. There is actually a space between the half steps, which has to be measured well. I recommend a chromatic tuner to practice that!
@@SimonStreuffViolinEducation thank you so much! I changed the fingering from 1-2-1-2-3-4 to 1-1-2-2-3-3-4 then I am able to narrow the gap to maybe a quarter step short 😂 so I’m getting there!
@@user-ls6pg3cd9l great! In the first position I am a big believer in the 1-2-1-2-3-4-0-1-2-1-2-3-4-.... fingering though. Especially for fast passages!
@@SimonStreuffViolinEducation I completely agree with you. In 1-1-2-2- fingering, I hear the note sounds are unclear. I will try to switch back to the 0-1-2-1-2-3-4 fingering once my ears are trained a little better. Thank you so much!
when i play with my neice ,her low d whistle high e is flat ,not her fault just the make of the instrument, does that mean i need to adjust the tuning of my e string to fit in with her?
I don't know if I understand correctly. but sometimes when an E-String gets old it gets impossible to play in tune. In that case changing the E-string would be a solution
Good video, thanks!
Would tou recommend to practice tonalisation using an electronic tuner that gives the actual tone/note played to check if it is right for each note?
Yes, people call this practicing with a "drone note" it is very good! You can listen to the relationship of the note played by the tuning device. But this just works for simple pieces or scales, where you are in one tonality, for example a-major. Put the tuner on an A and play your notes in tune and in relation with the A from the tuner. It is especially useful if you tend to lose your center of tonality and intonation and you do not practice with other instruments very often.
Simon Streuff Violin-Education
Ok, thanks. I will try the drone note exercise.
But I use a tuning device that tells wether each note is "right" or not. So I can check for each note I play, ABCDEFG b and #.
I can check every note of the piece, when I find that one note sounds weird I look on the tuning device and adjust the pitch.
What do you think of that method?
Also I still have the paper strips stuck on the violin board to tell me where to put the fingers but this is imprecise and the marks do not fit the right intonation.
I am wondering when it is advisable to remove those paper marks for beginners?
Would you recommend to practice intonation eyes closed or not looking at the board to see where I put my fingers on the board?
I assume that control of the fingers should be entirely kinesthetic and do not require to look/see where to place them on the board, what is a good way to train for developing that?
Danke schön!
"I can check every note of the piece, when I find that one note sounds weird I look on the tuning device and adjust the pitch.
What do you think of that method?"
- It is a good method! We string players can benefit a lot from it!
"Also I still have the paper strips stuck on the violin board to tell me
where to put the fingers but this is imprecise and the marks do not fit
the right intonation."
- Yes markings are always imprecise and should be removed with proper hearing as soon as possible. But I also use markings with small children, it is very handy! But remove them as soon as you find the notes by ear!
"Would you recommend to practice intonation eyes closed or not looking at the board to see where I put my fingers on the board?"
- Good idea!
"I assume that control of the fingers should be entirely kinesthetic and
do not require to look/see where to place them on the board, what is a
good way to train for developing that?"
- playing the fingers back and forth is always better than correcting already played notes. Other than that it is a combination of visual, auditive and kinesthetical feedback, what makes a secure intonation. There are arguments and places where one or the other kind of feedback is more appropriate.
For example hitting an very high note on the spot after a break will be a visual and kinesthetical thing. The auditive feedback would be too late here.
Generally it is always helpful for the intonation to play some pieces by heart and looking at your fingers more closely than you would, if you read notes at the same time!
Simon Streuff Violin-Education
Thanks a lot for your answer that is really helpful.
I am progressively removing the paper stickers markers on the board now!
What about ear training exercises such as identifiying intervals by ear? Would that help to improve intonation on the violin?
everything, which trains your ear will help you on the violin! Especially singing intervals!
Great videos Simon. Can you please tell me what violin you have and the strings you use? Thanks
James Turpie thank you! I use a Lorenzo Bellafontana violin and peter Infeld strings or larsen virtuoso
Don’t tell me it’s that 1959 Genoa that went at auction for £14000 in 2004?
James Turpie no,I don‘t think so 😂
if you can practice slowly, you can practice quickly XD
If you can practice slowly, you can slowly quickly
Hey Simon! Thank you for the video, as a beginner intonation is the biggest struggle I think, and some of these tips are really helpful.
Also, unrelated, but did you delete your video performance of the Sibelius concerto? I know it said it was a progress video but it was terribly good imo and the piano part was also different from a lot of videos here on youtube. Any chance you'll reupload a new one soon? :)
Feral Fae thanks for the nice words. I did not delete it but it is not listed anymore. It got some thumbs down recently from people who dont read the description i guess. That doesnt feel too good and I personally want my uploads to be on a good level. Long story short: I wasnt satisfied with the performance myself and the bad feedback by some people. i can send you the link to the video later... maybe there will be a better performance some times. thank you for noticing!
Oh, ok. I just watched a bunch of performances on here since it's my favourite concert and that's how I came across your channel, so that's why I noticed it's absence. But I get it, and for what it's worth even if it's unpolished or in progress, it was a very heartfelt performance :) thank you for answering!
Feral Fae thank you. it is also my favorite concerto. actually the reason why i picked up the violin again in my teens. i will post here when there will be another better performance! :)
th-cam.com/video/nrct1p55z9I/w-d-xo.html here is the secret link
Thank you for the link :) it's a very similar story with me, but I'm still a few years from playing that piece. Looking forward to a new version!
Ganz super Videos - kurzes „Headsup“: die Quart heißt „fourth“ in Englisch. Ein „Quart“ ist ein Maß: „two pints in a quart“
Danke! Ich glaube den Begriff kannte ich damals noch nicht. Heute ist er mir bereits bekannt. Trotzdem danke. "Quart" kann man ja auch in anderem Kontext dann gebrauchen. Das wusste ich so nicht! :)
What is a scale ?
Sl ow ly 😂😂😂
Can you make a video on sheet music for violin
a musical scale is a succession of notes. You might google that, it is hard for me to describe with words :)
Yes! I plan to do a complete course on how to read music on the violin
"play Sssloowwly..."
Congratulations you found a twoset comment
what do you mean?
Camille Saint-Saens : "Tous les violonistes jouent faux, mais certains exagèrent".
(all violonists play out of intonation, but some of them overdo)
:D So true! Or one could also say: "some make out of tune sound nice" ;)