Why jointers/planers do NOT make boards flat + square
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ต.ค. 2024
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My Woodcutters is a small Canadian business that specializes in jointer/planer knives & Helical carbide jointer/planer heads. It is well worth supporting: mywoodcutters.com/
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Got my helical jointer blades from Stephan a while back, talk about a game changer, much easier chip extraction, and it's not as noisy as the three blade cutter.
You go through certain aspects that don't always make sense, but then you turn them into easy understandable solutions.
Ya beat me to it. I started watching this thinking “ah. That CAN’T be right.” Geometry. Math. Science. But he makes it make sense. Human error is always a factor. It’s the difference between sending a shuttle to space or blowing up on the launch pad. But not me. I could totally make it square. 🤣🤣🤣
@@johnjohnson6167 🤣🤣🤣
I was a commercial cabinet maker working entirely in a shop. The jointer was used primarily to give you a straight edge that could be placed against the tablesaw fence providing a consistent desired width and hopefully square edge. Since all the wood we used came directly from mills, it usually came in 4/4, 8/4, 12/4, and 16/4 thicknesses, then planed down to near the desired thickness then sent through a drum sander where the desired finished thickness is achieved. THAT BEING SAID, wood has grain, a mind all its own, which decides how it will bow when material is removed in either the jointing and/or planing process, which IMHO makes this a kind of art knowing through experience how to respond to said variable conditions. I've cut solid walnut on a table saw and literally watched one side or the other bow over the other or away from it as you cut...kinda like crossing your fingers. StumpyNubs is absolutely correct...
I sincerely appreciate the accurate labeling of "wood" and "hand" along with the bright, friendly arrows indicating which is which. So many woodworking TH-camrs get that wrong.
LOL...
😂
Now if only table saws could read
@@akillersquirrel5880 The modern and expensive one can and saw this thumbnail.^^
Mate...congratulations on maintaining such consistently high quality presentations over such a long period of time.. This is what TH-cam should be!
I totally agree! Jointer > thickness planer > table saw. That produces the best results exactly for the reasons that you stated.
This is great, man! So often I will execute a woodworking project based on what seem like reasonable assumptions, only to find that my stuff doesn't line up and being incredibly frustrated at the difference between my "logic" and the reality of how tools and processes work. Sometimes it's subtly malfunctioning machines, sometimes it's my lack of skill, but sometimes it's just that I haven't tested my assumptions thoroughly enough. Discussions like this are a great way to make sure that we actually understand what the heck we're doing! So thanks for helping us all do that without having to ruin our expensive wood or waste our precious time!
That's exactly what a Master Carpenter taught me years ago. Joint a face and an edge, and then finish on the planer and table saw. Excellent explanation. Excellent video.
I’m a new wood worker and your videos are invaluable! I watch other TH-camrs but find myself using Stumpynubs as a gold standard reference to make sure they are right. Thanks a ton for the straightforward and silliness-free content. Keep up the excellent work!!
This couldn't have come at a better time. I just got off work, and I got into an argument with our face frame guy about this same thing. I am going to text him this video. Thanks foe doing what you do, James.
I love how your videos often answer the hidden questions that aren't at the forefront of woodworking, but that everyone who's used a particular tool has had to deal with and been perplexed by. I've often wondered why my edges would end up not parallel even though all my surfaces were dead flat.. now I know exactly what to do!
you are 100% right. I had to learn this lesson the hard way destroying several boards before it became obvious that high school geometry had some pretty useful knowledge :)
Probably the best, clearest explanation of a jointer function I've ever seen. I can't believe all the confusion.
I have almost the exact same discussion with former co-workers whom we share the same hobby interest. Thanks for sharing.
Thank you for this explanation. I’ve tried to do this on the jointer. It doesn’t work! Not only was it scary, it just doesn’t work. So, it’s back to jointer-jointer-planer-tablesaw. But now I understand why. Really appreciate your explanations.
Your video clearly demonstrates how and what it’s used for. Anyone arguing that you can simply mill all 4 sides with a jointer has likely never actually used one
I trust James implicitly. Others on YT not so much. Thanks!
Your explanation is exactly how I see it. I've been woodworking for over 45 years and use a thickness planer, jointer, and table saw to get a square board. I'd love to see the furniture made by those who disagree with you. 😄
This was just the explanation I needed, because I have been asking myself this question for months. So thank you❤
God, this is such a frustrating problem! LOL. So much for doing this hobby both cheaply and accurately..
YES!!! While I can see your argument makes excellent sense, my brain keeps telling me I should be able to make that board a perfect rectangle with my jointer/planner.
I’ve tried it loads of times, and it never worked and I always blamed myself for stupidity, ignorance, and lack of skill.
I am no longer blaming myself thanks to you! 😊
Thank You. As a woodworking student, I asked the “same question” in class after seeing the jointer for the first time. The instructor simply answered we do one side, then move to a thickness planer; no further rationale; you’re right; I couldn’t figure out why. I realized shortly after that I wasn’t learning; I was simply in attendance and left the program a week later.
I cut perfectly square boards on only my jointer.
Excellent explanation. I was trying to explain this to an assistant the other day. Next time I will send them here.
No matter how well or how many times you explain this some folks just refuse to get it. But thanks for your effort.🙂🙂
Very well explained., I fought this battle about 30 years ago and finally figured it out. I wish I had your video back then. One thing I could never figure out is how do you process a board wider than your jointer? Planers come in 12- to 24-inch versions, but jointers are 16-inch or less.
Thank you James. You really do make a great point.
PLEASE ... continue this series.
Thank you!
As someone looking to add a planer/thicknesser to my workshop. I’m so glad I came across this video. Thank you.
2:50 The second corner proposed here is a 90 degree corner in the cross section, but is already prone to leaving a board tapered along the remaining axis (typically the long direction). This is covered later briefly with the references to the correct tool (table saw) to correct that edge, but I thought it was worth saying that the second thin edge (third face jointed overall) is already a problem.
Squaring something like a Newell post requires the same jointer, jointer, planer, tablesaw (or jointer, jointer, planer, planer, if preferred) approach as any other milling, despite having no thin edge to struggle holding against the fence.
Thank you, always saw through the over exaggeration of the capabilities of a jointer.
Some one finally got it right
I’ve been a woodworker and licensed contractor for 40 years and I never use a jointer for anything I’m not saying they aren’t useful I just don’t use them! in all my years, not one customer has ever asked me why I did not use a jointer , and the check always clears!
Great explanation. I think most woodworkers have tried that at least once 😏. I would only add that these techniques require perfectly tuned machines. I guess that’s obvious, but I thought I’d mention it. Also, in our workflow, we sometimes go back to the Jointer after the table saw, to take off the last 1/32 and remove the saw marks.
As a newbie woodworker I have spent hours of thinking and watching videos to try and get my head around this. And in 7 minutes you have explained it perfectly, thank you.
As you were explaining, I just completely understood the problem - and I only have a hand saw that I use about 3 times a year, lol. You are just that good at explaining.
I'm trying hard to not fill my shop with every possible machine. But when I finally got a jointer it made it _so_ much easier to get a board ready to use vs. shimming for planing. I love it.
That is the best explanation I've ever heard on jointer/plainers. Thank you
Your illustration makes perfect sense. I didn't understand until you showed each step, and as you was coming to the final step, I already saw the flaw that you were talking about. Excellent tip.
Great explanation!! I still can't believe someone called you an idiot just because you see the flaws in simplistic, half baked ideas!
Love your videos! I just graduated from cabinetmaking, and your videos have helped me learn a lot
Finally! I get it now. Thanks for explaining that. I've never quite understood why it wouldn't work but just believed the seasoned professionals knew what they were talking about.
I remember asking you about this years ago. Thanks again for taking the time to explain it to me back then, I appreciated it.
This is an exceptionally good video, explaining the purpose of the jointer/planer v thickness planers as well as the limitations of each. The basics are clearly presented and the pitfalls are layered in as appropriate.
Another fine, practical video; thank you for the ongoing shop and technique reviews.
Thanks James, this is easy to understand advice for all woodworkers.
Very good & clear explanation, thanks for posting for newbies! I learned all this from my dad who was a shop teacher for 30+ yrs, he showed me what to do...but never explained it as you did.
One of your best. Yet more reinforcement that a jointer is an unnecessary nice to have in MY two car sized woodshop. Find a friend with the tools you don't have.
Clear, concise and well produced. This is why out of all of my original subs, you remain one of the few who I still watch. Thank you!
Thanks for explaining the origins of the nomenclature.
I always wondered why my dad and uncles (who came from a line of wooden fishing boat builders) always referred to the jointer as a planer.
Oddly they never had a thinkness planer in their shop.
I don't have a jointer, but I've wondered about this on and off for a long time, and I was right! Thanks.
What an excellent tutorial. Thank you very much. Tom Bruno from Eloy, AZ.
Thanks Stumpy you explained that really well and even a new woodworker like me could see that it. Makes sense to me. I have a small jointer handed down to me from my father in law and got the Dewalt larger planer. I've only tested it out because I got sick and haven't built anything needing it. I'm getting better and wanting to spend some time in my garage doing wood working. I just don't want to make to many mistakes with the cost of good wood now days. LOL Thanks for all you do for us.
Thank you for sharing this with us today. Great information. Everyone stay safe, happy and healthy. From Henrico County Virginia
Excellent video....I can't fathom how anyone can think a jointer/planer can produce square/parallel surfaces.
Great explanation! I’ve been trying to wrap my head around this for a bit as a novice and now it makes perfect sense. Thank you!
The harshness of reality always smacks my theoretical brain right between the eyes...
Thank you Stumpy Nubs for helping me make sense of things!
I definitely would have been one of those people who thought you 'didn't get it'. And I have all the equipment, but question if I've been using it correctly. thanks for the video.
One of the better explanation that I have heard. Thanks, Stumpy🤙🏼
I got you. I have friends that don’t get it either. Oh well, all you can do is try. I think you explanation is perfectly understandable.
Maybe not the ideal video suggestion for you, but i think a video with those techniques you mentioned at the end as to not use a jointer would be really apreciated! Since i think many of us (including, of course, myself) are hand tools hobbyist woodworkers and can't justify buying a table saw, jointer, or thickness planer at the same time.
¡Great video of course!
Once again, useful information, clearly presented. Thank you.
On an adjacent note, TH-camrs that claim the running the edge of a board through a jointer is the complete jointing process. Nowhere do they first discuss, check and then joint one face. Even worse, so many defend their process when you challenge it. Your video is spot on, but you could probably touch on this (regularly for folks that don't want to look back at early videos). Good stuff. Thanks.
Great video! I watched the old video a while ago and always forget the details why the tablesaw, jointer, and planar are all necessary. This feels a bit deeper of a video and elaborates on some of the more complicated parts
This was an excellent video, I learned something, I love your channel and happy i discovered it a few years ago.
I'm surprised that anyone who works with wood would question this. It's very clear and logical that jointing two faces of a board will not make them parallel.
Thank you for your help in understanding these types of misconceptions and how to correct them
Very well made video on a misunderstood topic.
Also, people tend to forget we deal with tridimensional objects. You not only need a slice of a board to be squared, it needs to happen on the whole length of the board.
James my only issue with calling a planer a "jointer" is that it confuses beginning woodworkers. Only in north America (U.S. and Canada) are planers called jointers, you alluded to that in the video I just wanted to your viewers to understand just how narrow geographically our nomenclature of a planer is. When I explain exactly what you have here, I start out by telling them a jointer is a planer and was always called a planer until somewhere around the 1950's/60's. Some believe it was a marketing ploy for the growing home woodworking tool industry to differentiate a planer and a thickness planer to beginner woodworkers of the day. How true this is I don't know, but it really helps when explaining to beginning woodworkers because calling a tool what it does is easier to understand how it works and how to use it than one that doesn't.
My two cent's,
All the Best, Chuck
I think the analogy of the original tool- a "jointer plane" best explains why both terms are correct.
@@StumpyNubs I agree, that's one I had not thought about before your video.
Again, thank you for sharing your knowledge of woodworking and its history and origins.
All the Best, Chuck.
Doing my apprenticeship with a guy like you would be my dream come true.
YES! I would like to learn more of that. Yep, you guessed it a newbie here--jointer of any proper size isn't in my plans because my shop is 110 and realistically can't be upgraded to 220. James, you are my "go to" when I need to learn something in a clear, concise, and non opinionated manner-absolutely love what you do and how you do it!
My shop is limited as well (meaning I have no shop, just a large garden 😁) so I only have a thickness planer; a reasonably compact piece of machinery. I start off by flattening one side of a board in the planer, by using a sled with adjustable supports to keep the (warped) board flat. Once I got a flat surface, I can just flip it over and run it through the thickness planer to get the final thickness. Square edges are achieved with a carefully adjusted track saw. Not ideal, but good enough with a little practice. If you are joining up boards to form a work surface, and your track saw was slightly out of true, simply flip over one board to get the boards to line up at a perfectly flat 180 degrees.
You can find 110 volt jointers readily. Most will only handle six-inch wide stock. Laguna makes am 8-inch jointer that runs on 110, but it costs more than a table saw. You might look on Craig's list for a jointer.
@@theeddorian Out of curiosity, what is the maximum wattage you can stick on a US 110v outlet? I've seen a few decent 1500W jointers for around €500, that take 8"/ 200mm boards. Here in NL the max is 3600W on a regular (220v) socket.
@@kaasmeester5903 It's a simple formula. Amps x Voltage = Watts. So a 120VAC 20A circuit can give you a theoretical 2400W. Realistically though, you have to derate by about 20% so a practical wattage of 1920W.
@@LinkPankratz Hm I can see why USians would want 220v hookups. But isn't it easy to get in the US? You have 220v with a center pickup on the transformer to make 110v, but surely you can get both ends of the transformer into your home? 1920W is not a lot even for a dryer or water heater. (flexes with 400v 3 phase 😄)
“If you actually do woodworking “ . Nailed it !
Another excellent vid, thanks Stumpy! For the old timers these may seem redundant, but they are a God send for many of us newer folks to woodworking. Currently working on a project where I need the stock within a .01" for vcarving. Your vid explained perfectly some of the things I was running into!
Clear and Right again!
I'd love if you did a video about air compressor requirements and air tools. There's so much confusing info out there about CFM/SCFM values and what all the numbers mean and what you actually need to do certain jobs. eg. Some people say you can do HVLP with a pancake, some say you need a huge 100L unit minimum.
Brilliantly explained, thank you!
Great explanation. I have known for a long time that is how you are supposed to do it, but it makes more sense to understand why. Especially the part about trying to keep the thin edge of a board against the jointer fence. I ended up finding a used Delta clone 6” floor jointer years ago and that has made woodworking much less frustrating.
I remember not fully grasping this concept many years ago but it’s hard to relate to now 😝
Very well explained. Sadly there will be those who will disagree. Flattening a board is a three step process. Joiner, planer and table saw.
You make great content. I knew all that and that makes me feel good. I use your videos for references.
Just bought a 8" Jointer with a spiral cutter head. So it has the carbon inserts that have 4 edges and can be turned as needed to get a new edge. The same manufacture markets a jointer with a helical cutter head. I have been trying to understand the difference, and have been given several different answers. I would love to see a video explaining the difference. Thanks for all the great videos.
Thanks for the good information James. You explained it well. Keep up the good videos and all the help you pass on to folks. Stay safe. Fred.
One thing I didn't hear mention, but which I do for big pieces that are too heavy for my small jointer: jointing that first edge with a track saw. They used to be a lot less common but now that there are some lower priced options on the market, they're becoming more common in a lot of home shops. Then again, I don't usually have more than 1 or 2 huge boards to work on so I'm more likely to reach for my old Stanley No. 8 and get in a bit of a meditative workout.
I work for a custom cabinet shop. We’ve used a track saw that way a few times but typically only for big stuff like 8/4 that’s 12” x 120. At that point it’s just so enormous that you have to work around the piece instead of working the piece itself. We also used to mill up maple from the rough until it became cheaper to have the sawyer do it. Even then, we only used a thickness plainer and a table saw. Once we got the jointer it made things a lot easier.
I would think one would have to be careful that the track isn't following any twist in the board down its length, right? Not owning one, I can't speak for how rigid the tracks are created.
@@robertlybarger well yes. But you have to consider that usually it’s not one cut and done. It never is. No matter what combination of machines you use, there will always be some paring away at things and(on occasion) going back to a machine to readjust. At least in my experience, which is very very little compared to most guys out there.
@@robertlybarger Yeah, in those cases I'm mostly using hit/miss lumber ("mostly" but not completely planed on the faces so flat enough for this purpose), or have surfaced first on my planer. But It's really just to get it close enough to straight to safely run through the table saw.
One can also make their own track saw guide for a standard circular saw using straight plywood, or buy those aluminum straightedge claps to run against. Not nearly as accurate or nice as a track saw, but cheaper since most people already have a normal circular saw. I mostly use this to break down large sheets for the small shop, but it should work for planks as well. Or if you are lucky enough to have a table saw create a jointing sled and use that.
Thank you for the very clear explanation! Always appreciate your extremely helpful videos.
Good lesson! It makes sense the way you describe it. Thanks James.
this is an awesome video explaining things clearly
I'd love a video on how to use a thickness planer to "joint" boards. Terrific content as always!
If you don't find that in the older videos here, then you can find one on the @3x3CustomTamar channel. She covered it about 2 years ago in a video titled "Milling Rough Lumber Without a Jointer Using a Few Simple Jigs".
I don't have a jointer and have never used one except under guidance from my teacher in wood shops some 45+ years ago! But I have often wondered if it could be used for this purpose but always come to the same conclusion: No it can't! So I'm glad that my layman pondering of the problem resulted in the correct answer! LOL
Awesome. Thank you. And yes, I would love a video on using just a planer.
When I first started having a go at a bit of wood working, when marking out for the shoulder of a tenon my marks never lined up once I'd got all the way round with my square, soon realised most of the wood you buy from DIY centres isn't square, just need a jointer, planer thicknesser and tablesaw now.
Very well explained, nicely done!
Perfectly explained!
Very well explained! Thanks for another great video.
More info on secondary ways to joint edges would be helpful and to go over what you were saying about the jig for thickness planer. Thanks
Great explanation, Stumpy, and a good review for those that are still trying to figure out how to achieve flat, parallel faces and 90 degree corners in the least possible steps. Thank you for all the great content!
I figured out when I first started woodworking you will get a taper in your board if you try to use the jointer the way discussed in the video. Once you have one good edge, run the board through the table saw and you will have parallel edges (assuming you have 2 good faces already). Then if you want, you can dress up the mill marks from the table saw cut by taking a super light pass with the jointer on the just sawn edge.
Another excellent video as always. Keep up the great work, I always look forward your videos, they always teach me something new.
Another well explained presentation of a "simple" subject. What is assumed to be simple, actually is not.
BTW... while large jointers are nice, many times a small one is all you need. Me, I get along perfectly fine with an old 4" Rockwell cabinet makers jointer I inherited (vintage late 60s). I never need anything wider than 4" for my builds. Very affordable compared to the big boys.
But stumpynubs the Internet is never wrong!! Someone some time said that you can do it this way 🤣🤣🤦
Awesome, clear video. Thank you.
Hearing about people disagreeing on this topic reminds me of reading discussions about plane on a conveyor belt 😂
I originally just used the planer and table saw all the time and just called my end results “good”. After I learned how to set up and use the jointer for projects, the quality of the end results significantly went up. Not like I made anything differently, I just had the luxury of making my pieces squared before working with them. Jointer is awesome
Very good information. Please continue.
I'm new to woodworkand all this stuff seems like a lot to learn so I just use my CNC machine to do all that stuff for me.