Why "Metroid Prime: Echoes" Was a Weak Sequel
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 มิ.ย. 2024
- With the upcoming release of "Metroid Prime: Beyond" looming ahead, I think it's high time we take a look at the second game in this brilliant series and ask ourselves -- "Was it a good sequel?"
Echoes has always been the underdog of the Metroid Prime franchise. Some consider it an underappreciated masterpiece. Others, a subpar gaming experience. Can a happy medium truly be reached? Join me, sweet viewer, and let's find out!
We'll be looking at the game design of Echoes and exploring everything from its gameplay to its pacing. Let's get to the bottom of this, together!
#metroid #metroidprime #metroidprime4 #gamedesign #metroidvania #nintendo #videogame #nintendoswitch #zelda
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Chapters:
00:00 Intro
3:43 Improvements
7:10 Problem 1
14:22 Problem 2
18:30 Problem 3
21:21 Problem 4
24:14 Conclusion
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Some footage that I could not capture myself for this video was borrowed under fair use. Very little of it was used. Here are the links:
Metroid Prime Multiplayer: • Metroid Prime 2: Echoe...
The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask: • Longplay of The Legend...
Guacamelee!: • PC Longplay [532] Guac...
Bloodborne: • Bloodborne: Father Gas...
1. I love the beam system and ammo. Adds a level of strategy and tension so that combat isn't brain dead. The Annihilator beam would ruin that strategy if it were overpowered.
2. I agree some areas are bland in terms of coloring, but what compensates for that is some of the absolutely coolest architectural design I've ever seen in a video game. Not to mention, the level layouts and puzzle design are so much more interesting than Prime.
3. Echoes is the only game I've ever seen use the light/dark world concept in a clever way. The way you solve puzzles in each dimension to affect the other is brilliant. And the light bubbles add incredible tension to the early game. My only big complaint is the long load time when switching dimensions.
4. I can understand people disliking the fetch quest, but I actually love it. The clues you collect make you feel like a detective, and I think it's really cool how that quest frequently leads you to explore new rooms you wouldn't have gone to otherwise. In Prime, i would enjoy the fetch quest if the world were more efficient to backtrack and explore, but it's not. Echoes provides multiple shortcuts to get from area to area, which makes things flow so much better.
Overall, I think Echoes' puzzles, bosses, exploration/backtracking, and challenge are huge improvements over Prime. Echoes' biggest drawbacks are the lack of vivid color and the long load time of the dimension portals.
Still, I enjoyed your thoughts and how you articulated them 🙂
There are some great counter-arguments here. I can get behind points 2 and 4. The architecture and mood does help Echoes get away with its flat colour pallet, and I also personally enjoyed the fetch quest. My issue is only that it is mandatory. If it was optional and had some cool secret reward for completion, I still would have enjoyed it and liked it 5x more.
For point 3, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one! I think the other games I mentioned (Link to the Past, Axiom Verge Two, Guacamelee!) all have more interesting light/dark world dynamics than Echoes, but there are certainly some stand-outs in Echoes. I remember the Torvus Bog light/dark puzzles were really cool.
As for point 1, I have to hard-disagree on that one for the reasons mentioned in the video, but if you found it to be engaging that's all good! I didn't find it strategic at all, and the last weapon in a Metroid game should always be overpowered if you ask me. Either way, thanks for watching and great points!!
I guess I never thought the fetch quest was worse than the one in the original prime. At least it took you to some different locations. But I’d consider the end of game fetch quests to be a weakness of all the games, personally. I think Prime 2 overall just has the most unique voice in terms of its world. Prime 1 just felt like Super Metroid fan fic sometimes, and Prime 3 feels too much like a Saturday morning cartoon.
Literally all of the points you made about this video are exactly why I love Prime 2 in every aspect and way over Prime 1.
Honestly having infinite ammo and being an unstoppable force for the rest of the game after you've collected the plasma beam kinda sucked the strategy and tension out of the combat in Prime 1. I agree that while the Annihilator Beam may not be overpowered compared to the Plasma Beam in Metroid Prime 1 It's still an incredible final weapon to get towards the end of the game since it does about the same amount of damage per uncharged shot as the Plasma Beam only it can fire much faster, the shots home in on targets and can create energized crystals/beacons that lure Ing to their doom.
Yes the game may have lacked color variety in the environments compared to Prime 1 but the architecture and design of the environments more than made up for it. Not to mention Prime 2 also had some higher quality texture detail than Prime 1 which had pushed the GameCube to it's limits back in 2004 and it still holds up today. The cutscenes still look incredible even 20 years later. The player and enemy animations are all top notch, beautiful environments (aside from the same greyish look you'll see other than when you go into the dark world) and incredible special effects make this games visual presentation deserve an astonishing 9.5/10.
The Inclusion from jumping between light and dark world in order to solve new puzzles was also a great new addition introduced to the series.
I initially thought the sky temple key hunt was more tedious and time consuming than the hunt for the chozo artifacts but now that you mentioned the world in Prime 2 being more efficient to backtrack and explore than Prime 1's I've now reconsidered my opinion.
Overall Metroid Prime 2 brings back everything I loved about Prime 1 and made it even better. With that said I'd give Metroid Prime 2 Echoes a 9.5/10.
For me, Prime 2 is better. You explained why perfectly. However, while ending it I always think that 1 more year of development would have ment an ever better game. The definitive 3D metroidvania. Even crazier visuals (Aegon Waste i'm looking at you), more presence of Metroids around Dark Samus...
Nice to see discusions like this online! I'm usually on the "alternative" side: Bioshock 2>1, Prime 2>1, Golden Sun 2>1...
The combat is still as mindless as prime 1, you just are limited in ammo. You’re still spamming the dodge, only now you’re gonna be stuck with power beam if you run out of ammo.
I find it hilarious in hindsight how the Cloaked Drone in the Phazon Mines is a monstrous difficulty spike just for the fact that it can't be locked on to, but if you go out of your way to obtain the Waveburst upgrade in the Chozo Ruins on your second visit to get the Ice Beam, this boss becomes laughably easy since the upgrade has stun locking properties and has homing abilities without having to use a lock on. The Drone gets trashed in a matter of seconds if you have enough Missiles for it.
Wow no way, I honestly never even thought to try that but will definitely test that out in my HD run on the switch. That's sick!
@@mrsnulch Just keep in mind to collect every single Missile Expansion that is available up to that point. Exploring the Phazon Mines tends to be a drag because of Power and Wave Troopers. They can be easily taken care of with the Beam Combo Weapons but they will chew through your missile reserves very quickly.
I did it on the remastered version and I thought "I've been stupid for 20 years"
@@Nyxael5845 Don't worry, I never a leave a missile expansion unturned. I'm very curious about this now. I'll try to test it out sometime next month. I never gave the Waveburst the fair shot it deserved in my previous runs!
I'm a little confused because I've never had trouble with this thing. Y'all didn't just kill it with a couple of super missiles while up on the balcony, next to the entrance?
TBF, Metroid Prime 2 not making the sales MP1 did is no doubt directly related to it's release date being *six days* after Halo 2, and less than a month after San Andreas.
Nothing could have stood a chance in that release window. The only reason MP2 didn't completely flop on sales was being released on the Gamecube, isolating it to an extent from the other two games. But for most people picking a game to buy in November that didn't only have a Gamecube, they probably picked up Halo on Xbox, or GTA on PS2.
Or Half-Life 2 on PC, or MGS3 also on PS2. Those games also released in November 2004.
@@AICW 2004 was a stacked year to be sure.
I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts, but as someone who thinks Echoes is the best game in the series and a massive step up from Prime... I'm guessing I'll disagree with your perspective 😋
That's totally fair, there are a lot of great aspects of Echoes and I do point out a few things I like about the game as well! I can see why some with different tastes than me might consider it the best.
Nice profile pic. Happy Pentecost!
@@educationalporpoises9592 Joyous feast!
@@mrsnulch I second this comment. Prime 2 was different, but imo the superior game. Not too difficult to beat, but definitely a lot harder than Prime 1. The planet of Aether just fascinated me a lot more than Tallon IV.
I heard an expression once about video game sequels, that the developers will either do the same thing again but better, or take the concept in a new direction. Prime 2 was definitely the latter. I'll go ahead and give some of my thoughts as a big Prime 2 supporter.
1: Ammo: I don't really know how to address the rant about boxes and ammo. Prime 1 established that boxes were key to restoring ammo and health outside of combat. I feel like it's a no-brainer that you can get beam ammo back from boxes. As for the ammo mechanic itself, you may have noticed while playing that the Light and Dark beams are really powerful. That's why the ammo system exists, so that the Power beam isn't completely worthless. They included the feature as a balancing system, not with the mindset of adding an interesting gameplay mechanic behind it. Also, you can get ammo for one back even if you run out. Holding charge allows you to fire a normal shot if you're out of ammo, which, to be fair, the game should tell the player this when they get the gun (it says this in the logbook instead).
2: Annihilator beam. The way you were describing the beam makes me think you never actually used it. This weapon shreds every enemy in the game in seconds, and I love the black hole aesthetic of the weapon. Also, shooting a light crystal with the annihilator beam causes all Ing in the area to just straight up run into it and off themselves like a bunch of moths running into a lit bug zapper, allowing you to clear rooms with a single shot. If I remember correctly, you also get both ammo supplies when using the Annihilator.
3: Atmosphere. I understand your complaints, but I think you're missing the point on why Prime 2's environemts are designed the way they are. Aether is a dying world plagued by darkness. It wouldn't make sense to have everything be bright and cheery given the setting. Also at 17:15, you refered to Torvus Bog as a rainforest... It's not, at least since it was flooded. It's a bog, a swampy, murky, overgrown environment like Dagobah from Star Wars.
4: Dark Aether. Dark Aether suffered from a crunched dev cycle, although I still like it. The aesthetic could definitely use a touch up, but the atmosphere is top-notch. I heavily disagree with your comparison to Magmoor Caverns, in fact, I'd argue they're conpletely separate things. Magmoor is just trekking through the same area you've already mastered, no real danger, just a casual stroll. The Dark World in comparison is constantly pushing you into new areas, and it's specifically designed as a place you want to get into and out of quickly because it's lethal. Some sections of Dark Aether feel like death runs, trying to keep your health up while searching for an exit. It's not a gameplay style for everyone, but I think you mistook it for being a design flaw when it's actually intended that you try to run through it as fast and as safe as possible.
5: Keys. No complaints here chief, I have no clue why they insisted on another full-scale key hunt in the longest game of the Trilogy. At least it gives you time to mess around in Dark Arther fully powered up, but it's still tedious.
At the end of the day, it's different strokes for different folks I guess.
As with Prime 1, the key hunts were implemented for the sole purpose of padding the game because the devs were worried the game was too short. It's not that they "didn't learn" from the criticisms of the first game -- they had full intention to bring it back
@@LoppinLazyAbsolutely, although it's still funny to me that they felt like they had to pad this game out as well when it's twice as long as Prime 1 on average lol.
Dude, this is a great comment and I don't know how I missed it. Those are all solid rebuttals in favour of Echoes. You should start your own TH-cam channel given how eloquently you expressed your points here.
The beams are the main area I disagree with you. Yes you can charge an empty-ammo beam to use it to recover ammo from boxes to build that ammo back up, but for me it all still comes back to the fact that this system is boring because you always end up just shooting boxes, so the ammo scarcity ultimately means nothing. My main issue is that in every Metroid game other than Echoes, finding new upgrades is fun and exciting, but in Echoes you are just locked into this system the whole game, and personally I don't find it satisfying. You don't get many cool novel upgrades the entire game and I'm dead bored of the light and dark beam dynamic by the 10th hour.
I should have mentioned the Annihilator being able to suck up Ing in the dark world. But by the time you get it, you're 90% deep and onto the key hunt, and by that point I've already been running past Ing in the dark world so it makes no difference. Never need to use it.
I also disagree that the Annihilator beam cleans up enemies. In the light world, you can kill enemies faster by hitting them with a charge dark beam shot + missile. Annihilator takes way too long to kill enemies by my count, and deals less damage than the plasma beam.
Your points about the Atmosphere and Dark World are totally spot-on and come down to different strokes to different folks. I love the Dagobah comparison and think Torvus has one of the best soundtracks in the series, and Sanctuary is one of the coolest areas in the series. I was a bit too harsh on those environments. I prefer Chozo Ruins and Phendrana personally, but again, preference. You make a good point about the dark world being DESIGNED to be a place you need to skirt in and out of, and I did feel some tension there.
Ultimately while it didn't land for me, I really respect Echoes for taking risks and changing things up, and I hope Beyond does something like this. My biggest fear for Beyond is that it will play it too safe. Hopefully it satisfies fans of all Prime games!
@@mrsnulch It's though to say if the ammo system is a problem by itself, or if it's how it's implemented. Somehow, I believe the ammunition system is part of the immersion, there is a lot of constraint, and it's supposed to make you feel nervous about how you are going to handle the dark world. It's also a game about the unbalanced distribution of power, so when you have your light beam ammo, you feel powerful, but when it's depleted, you are powerless. So I understand why it's in the game, but at which point does it increases the experience? Even if you gain acces to the light beam later in the game, the question still remains. Even if we patch the holes with upgrades on the base weapon just like in prime 3 where you don't have to switch with the d-Pad, do we still need bullets?
And then there is this question : If I get unlimited ammo, then why would I choose the light beam over the anihilator? The thing is a fast shooting, head seeker. It may be less strong than the plasma beam, this is still a considerable advantage. But you could say that by the time you get it, you have increased you amount of ammunition by a lot already, so you don't really have to worry about it. I think it's just to stick with the logic of it, and to keep the light and dark beam relevant.
In fact, there's plenty of ways to keep them relevant. You brought up a very good argument in this video : just add a mechanic in order to take down the ennemies in a strategic manner. It's not hard to think of something, just throw in some dark ings with light crystals in their back that you have to shoot with the dark beam. Ennemies that absorb the light beams, so you have to take them out first in order to be able to shoot the other ennemies around, ennemies that are immune to any weapon exept one of those beams, you can blow up their bullet, or crack their armor to get more munitions, etc.
So as the game is right now, the defense to support the ammunition system is the narrative of the game, and to preserve the relevance of the first beams. If we wish to push this idea further, Nintendo could implement new mechanics to the game, where the ammo are around the fighting system, or change something to the upgrades sequence, so the current mecanics can be exploited more progressively.
Prime 1 already had ennemies with weak points, and that could have been pushed with prime 2's mechanics.
I actually like the 3rd the most. This was definitely the hardest to play through the game (due to tedium)
The hardest thing I expect in Metroid prime 4, will be getting the special edition 😅.
I totally agree, I know there are those who don't like Prime 3 because it's more "mainstream" and linear, which it totally is, but I think that game slaps so hard that it gets away with it!
@@mrsnulch i think the notion that samus has to be entirely alone and there cant be other characters is the reason why people dislike 3... and i think its a dumb argument. you dont even need much dialogue - the 3 hunters dont talk much but they leave so much more impact than any other character in any other metroid game. its even dumber when people take other m as an example. that wasnt due to other characters and dialogue existing.. that was just bad writing.
The bosses were annoying and I couldn’t do the motion controls
@@Lewt_2B Well said, I agree with that. Samus is usually a lone bounty hunter, but it's not always a bad thing to see her collaborating with other hunters or the federation from time to time. Other M only failed because the writing was horrible and an insult to her character.
I think Prime 3 is way too easy on Normal difficulty, but the Hyper Mode mechanic works really well on Veteran and Hypermode difficulties. You really have to manage your health usage and use Hyper Mode to its fullest in every fight and boss battle.
Lot's of great points here, i remember struggling alot with this game and it's atmosphere. I really wanted to like it, i persevered through the game but damn.. it left kind of a bitter taste back then. It was so agressive and dark, bold but i think strayed too far of what Prime 1 was and what that game felt like to the players. Now that that memory has faded we can take a better look at what it truly was. The title screen opening is still one of the greatest ever btw..
Yeah exactly, like look it's a good game I'm not saying it's a horrible game, but I really have a hard time putting it up there with the 1st or 3rd and that muddy atmosphere still really holds the game down for me.
It hurts my heart how misunderstood Echoes is by many people. In its own way, Echoes is just as good as Prime. 😢
That’s true. I mention at the beginning (2:20) that Echoes was initially very misunderstood but now is becoming more widely accepted, with a sizable group of players coming to consider it better than the first game. When this was happening I went back and played it with fresh eyes, and really enjoyed it more than I did at launch. But I still don’t think it’s as good as Prime 1 or 3 for the reasons I go into here, but I agree the game was misunderstood, and is still all around a great game. Just not my cup of tea, but it comes down to preference!
HE HAS RETURNED
SO HAVE YOU
Prime 2 has always been my favorite in the trilogy but from just playing the game I can 100% see why some people don't like it. The design of the game always stuck out to me because of how similar yet wildly different it is from the first game, kinda one of those things that you either love or hate.
Definitely. I think back when it was released, it was sort of underwhelming for many people and 80% of people seemed to prefer the first game. Whereas now, it's making a comeback and it's almost a 50/50 of people who prefer it or not. It definitely comes down heavily to perspective and preference.
It’s not even that different tbh. It’s prime 1’s structure copy/pasted, but with everything doubled…this also means the flaws
I'm one of those who thinks Echoes is a slightly better game than Prime 1 and I have 2 issues with your video.
1. Not a huge issue but you didn't mention in the beam section how Prime 1 had this whole beam switch mechanic then basically had you only use the Plasma beam once you got it. They had to hand fist beam switching with the annoying Pirates with the unique beam Armor. Echoes meanwhile tries to get you to use all the beams throughout the game and has all beams work just at different effectiveness levels.
2. The bigger issue I had is you clearly show how you found Prime 1 to be superior. However, you didn't explain how Prime 3 is superior so the part of your conclusion where you show Prime 3 beating out Prime 2 doesn't feel backed up (outside of a brief mention with art style). IMO Prime 3 is the weakest of the 3 so I want to know why you think it's the 2nd best.
That's a good point, I actually will make a video on Corruption as well and maybe go into more depth as to why I enjoy that game (in a guilty-pleasure sort of way). I sort of touch on it at 17:44, but should have went deeper into my thoughts on that game, I'll get to that!
Regarding your first point, I definitely see what you mean about switching beams throughout the game whereas in other Metroid games you really just stick to the last beam.
But isn't that the point of the Metroid formula? There are lots of great games like Halo where you're always switching up your weapons, but in Metroid you usually get super powered up and get an absolutely filthy weapon for the endgame. I LOVE getting the plasma and nova beam because they're so satisfying and strong I wouldn't want to use anything else at that point. Whereas in Echoes I'm still toggling between these same 2 beams that I'm completely bored of using. I think it's really a matter of preference, which is why Echoes is such a 50/50 divisive title.
Uhhhh. You didn’t only use plasma beam once you got it. Maybe if you were backtracking through some areas, but phazon mines punishes you for not changing beams and Metroids (barring the annoying fusion ones) still are better dealt with using ice beam and missile
@@mrsnulchI straight up tend to call prime 3 the second best in the trilogy. It has basically none of the issues the prior games had, but is much easier and way too restrictive to serve it’s much more linear format
I may be one of the few people who doesn't have any preference towards one of the Prime games. I love them all equally. They all have different play styles, different motives and maybe different shortcomings, but I can appreciate the games for what they are. I love Prime being basically a 3D version of Super Metroid. I love Echoes for being the Metroid answer to A Link to the Past with a tint of Starship Troopers. I love Corruption for giving insight into the Galactic Federation and the world Samus basically lives in. And I'm very keen to see what lies Beyond (see what I did there?)...
Oooh I do see what you did there, and I LIKE it. I have high hopes for Beyond but also some concerns, so I'll certainly make a video on it. I agree with you broadly that I love ALL the games in the series and will never say one of them is bad, but this video is my response to those who say Echoes is better that Prime 1. I need to take a stand against that haha
This just makes me wan't a HD Remaster of Metroid Prime 2 Echoes even more.
That checks out especially because I grabbed all the footage in this video from native hardware and it definitely needs a fresh coat of paint.
I’m good to listen to a video with a differing opinion, but some examples you used were clearly cherry picked which makes your point come across as insincere whining rather than an actual argument. Showing the annihilator as weak by showing the charge shot and base boosted versions of the other two, then showing the annihilators normal shot at long range is an unfair showcase of how it feels. Showing different areas of the other games then cherry picking specifically the luminoth temple of each area to make it look more samey than it is makes you look like a jerk rather than you supporting your point. Just think about it for any future videos so you can actually make a fair argument instead of having to fake the evidence.
Hey those are good points and thanks for the feedback! The reason I do that is because I like to show footage those sort of visually represents my opinions on the game, as I think it makes the video more entertaining and helps support my point.
For the section about the beams, I'm not trying to show an analysis damage comparison, I'm saying that the Plasma Beam and Nova Beam are badass as fuck with cool sound effects and the Annihilator Beam is ugly. It's more of a joke section to make fun of the Annihilator Beam. In hindsight I actually wish I had shown a charge-beam shot of the annihilator as I think that looks goofy as well, and it actually deals 20% less damage than the plasma beam.
For the four-panel shots comparing the three games, that was also meant more as a gag to poke fun at Echoes. Hey at least I used the light world for my comparison -- I could have cherry picked extra hard and went to the dark world where literally every room looks the same across the entire game! Again, I'm trying to visually represent how Echoes has a much more subdued colour pallet than the other 2 games mentioned. I do it in an excessive way, but I don't think that's a hot take regardless. Those 4 panels represent how it feels to play Echoes for me.
Either way I acknowledge that there is a line to be walked between the entertainment value and getting too cherry-picky and will keep this in mind for future videos, I don't want it to ever be said that I'm not being fair. I'll consider this for sure. Cheers!
The annihilator is about the only point I wasn’t in full agreement on.
I do prefer Prime 1 and 3, but everytime I do get invested in a Prime 2 playthrough, it fools me into thinking it´s better at points. Maybe being harder and more obtuse makes it more engrossing when you´re in the thick of it, I don´t know...
This video has def earned a sub haha I love it.
I'm actually surprised you highlighted atmosphere as one of Prime 2's weakpoint, I've often heard that it has one of the best atmospheres in the series, but even as someone who ranks it as the best Prime game, I actually do think 1 and 3 have a better atmosphere (and even soundtrack barring some bangers like sanctuary).
It's a good video and makes me think a little more critically on my favorite 3D Metroid.
Thanks for the sub!! yeah I mentioned the atmosphere because while I do like some dark moody games (Hollow Knight, Majora's Mask, and Bloodborne), I find Echoes just looks so muddy and bland and it doesn't tickle me the way those games do. Very much a matter of preference I'd say. I can appreciate it's creepy atmosphere but I prefer the bright vistas of Prime 1 and 3.
That's a solid argument! Thanks for this
Wow you're really butthurt about the beam weapons... I knew about the crates ever since I was a kid, and I never ran out of ammo...
Really didn't bother me at all, and I was able to max out the ammo towards the end so running out with annihilator beam was never a problem
I wouldn't say I'm butthurt, but I have no problem saying that I think the ammo was a bad addition to the Metroid franchise. It doesn't add anything fun to the game since you can just stock up on it by shooting boxes and never run out. And if you do somehow run out, say by experimenting with the cool new combo attacks you get later in the game like sonic boom, then it's just tedious to restock.
I also think the Annihilator beam is a weak weapon that isn't fun to use, and by the time you get it there's only a couple hours left in the game. I just don't like the way Echoes handles its weaponry in general, I prefer the loadout from any other Metroid game.
@@mrsnulch I do think your idea of doling them out slower was a good idea. The light beam is actually too powerful against the dark ing to get in the beginning of the game, it does actually make more sense to get it somewhere in the middle
Interesting review, I feel much of the same way regarding the MP2 as you did at the time I played, I recall liking it but not as much as the first game and yes, I also prefer Corruption over Echoes. It's just weird to me now that so many people have just turned around on Echoes, like with so much over reviled or lukewarm media that was hated at first but is starting to get fans now. I've even seen Deus Ex Invisible War get called "underrated" of all things. I thought maybe if MP2 got a remaster I could turn on the game but you are confirming many of the things I thought about it, the beam ammo was useless, the dark world was tedious to go through, and the fetch quest made Prime 1's seem like a less of a massive gut punch. Prime 3 was the only game that I recalled did this in a somewhat tolerable way.
I think Powerslave Exhumed handled the fetch quest better than MP did, the 3D metroidvania that predates Prime 1, you at the very least are able to beat the game but you get a troll ending, so if you hate fetch quests and don't care about game endings then you can move on the something else.
Also, while Magmoor Caverns was tedious, I found the crashed frigate to be more so. You got to go there so many times, and while the theme there is great, it starts to become diminishing returns.
Overall, great vid.
Hi Snulch!
You have pretty solid arguments right there! You are making me think about how I love this game. I always liked prime 1 and 2 at around the same level. But now that I think about it, it's true that I always used to say like prime 1 better because even though I like the dark world like mad, prime 2 gets pretty heavy on the long term.
However, the narrative of the game justify it, the fate of the planet is terrible, and the dark world has taken over. I believe this is why they implemented an ammunition system, to make the dark world feel like a restrictive world, you lack mouvement, you lack ammo, you lack a clear vision and understanding of it. It's not meant to be fun, you gotta be careful, and this is why I love it, because it's part of the immersion. That being said, what I see that you are pointing out really is about tweaking the features. So I would really appreciate a new version of this game with some of your ideas implemented, it would simply crush the two other titles (and I can't emphasize enough the word "crush").
As for Prime 3, and surely 4, I can't see myself enjoying them as much as prime 1&2 just because there are human-like forms teaming up with Samus. It gets me out of my immersion. I just like walking around like a lone wolf. Exploring an entire planet without any dialog, trying to figure out evrything just by myself, wow! It's just crazy for me, in a good way. Just me, creepy creatures that look cool, and outstanding music tracks that help me feel the environment, now that's chilling.
Speaking of creepy creatures, prime 2 is so good on their design. A swarm of ing is what I'm dreaming of, so it would've been nice to have weaker creatures, but more. You would have big sequences of that, like Zerg rushes. You one shot them, but they deal damage. And on the other end, you can also put small groups of them everywhere, it doesn't takes 10 minutes to clear an area, but it makes the back track less like you are saying "talk to my hand" to every creatures around.
Thanks for the video, I'd say let your arguments speak, sometimes you sound little bias, and it sound less powerful. Like when you put the four images from the different environments saying they look alike, I feel like you wanted too much to prove your point, that you cheated on that, showing really particular areas of the map that look alike, I could easily take four pictures, like the sand area, the rainforest, and say you are trying to trick me. What I understood of it is two things : that the atmosphere is too gloomy all the time, and that the different areas don't stand out enough from each others, I believe that was enough to convince me.
Have a good day my friend!
There was one thing I really liked about Echoes. When you get to The Sanctuary. That place was awesome!!
Why I'm not much of a fan of Echoes, was it felt like it was a Key Master game. Like, there were so many different "keys" that you needed to open doors. Super Metroid for instance, you needed a regular missile for pink doors, a super missile for green doors, and a power bomb for yellow doors. In Metroid 1, you needed a missile to open pink doors. But in Echoes, wow, it just seemed like the key game just kept on going. As if Designers said, 'You know what Metroid is all about? Finding the right missiles to unlock doors, so that's what Echoes will be'. It just wasn't interesting enough.
And the world light world dark world theme just felt too much like I was playing Zelda 3 again. But again, Sanctuary. I would play that game again just to play through that area.
I agree across the board and have to admit that despite my criticisms of the game, Sanctuary is an easy contender for the coolest area in the entire series.
@@mrsnulch Yeah, that area was such a pleasant surprise! I felt like, 'YES! now THIS is METROID!"
You nailed every point on the head. The weapon implementation was quite poor. I felt like I was shooting aliens with paintballs for as effective as they were. The weapons were basically door openers rather than a futuristic arsenal. The "Annihilater" beam was such a disappointment I had to shut the game off for a few days before continuing on the obtuse fetch quest. Another weapon deficiency is the missle launcher that couldn't be spammed with the power beam anymore making firing missles sluggish.
I understand that the dark world is supposed to be opposing and dreary but I felt the music was draining on me personally turning the Dark world into a chore rather than a spooky space adventure.
Onwards!
Prime was my favourite game ever when I played it. Echoes was a day one purchase for me but I didn’t end up finishing it. I think the aesthetic threw me off and it was a bit restrictive in dark aether. But after I bought Trilogy I gave it another shot. At this point I would say it’s a better game. But its hub world is isnt as good as Tallon IV. I really do think that hurts it. Especially in such a dark and moody game. You need a place to rest and I never got that feeling in Echoes making it not only harder but more strenuous. But the game design is much better.
You and I almost have the same story here, the only difference is when I went back and replayed it, I DID enjoy it more than I did at launch, but I still wouldn't stretch far enough to say it's the better game. Totally fair if you think so, it does have some improvements in its design. But because of the things I mention in the video, I just find so many aspects of it really tedious and poorly designed, so for me 1 and 3 still come out on top. Echoes is a good game though!
@@mrsnulch yeah I didn’t take issues with your points because I think they’re correct and well thought out. It’s just personally if I had to take out the nostalgia factor for Prime 1 I think Echoes edges Prime but just barely. But great vid. Looking forward to your breakdown of Beyond 👌
When I first played this , i was disappointed at first due to the similarities at first then after completed it I appreciated it more and how different it was
So did I, I mention at around this at around 3:15 I do have a more favourable opinion of Echoes now than I used to after revisiting it, but the annoyances I express in this video still hold it firmly below 1 and 3 for me.
Glad Im not only one who feels Prime 2 was the weakest. Most of your criticisms are the same ones I had with it.
Now if I can only get people on board with the understanding that the first person perspective in general was always a bit problematic and limits 3D Metroid's potential to have faster paced satisfying platforming and movement mechanics along side good combat. I mean my problem with the Prime series in general is if I want good movement and exploration I'll just go play the 2D games and if I want good shooting I'll go play Halo; Prime does neither of these things well and it all stems from trying to force metroid mechanics around a first person perspective that they were clearly never well suited for. Sure its "innovative", but in the same way you could slap a USB powered toaster onto your phone. It can be done, but is it actually practical and sensible?
The majority of folks in the comments have been team Echoes so it's great that we're on the same page there! As for your second point, that's a pretty bold take! I agree that they sacrificed a lot of the gameplay and Samus' mobility with the switch to 3D, and the raw gameplay is a lot more "tame" than the 2D games. For gameplay I would say Dread is the top dog.
With that said, I really like the first-person view and slower pace because it really makes you feel immersed on this alien planet and allowed them to really show off the Gamecube's power while still respecting the exploration of a Metroid game. But I agree that they definitely left a lot of tight mechanics behind to do it. It's a matter of preference.
I recommend checking out the video "Where Metroid Went Wrong and Right Again" by Nerrel, he makes a cool point that definitely sort of won me over to the slower side. But I see what you're saying 100%
I had trouble with 2 for a bit but got used to it and the ending really ramps up
I finished Echoes for the very first time today and I agree with pretty much everything you said. It is a good game, but I didn't have nearly as much fun with it as with Prime 1 - to the point where I almost dropped the game because of the Spider and the Power Bomb Guardians. The lack of colour in the game also made it very difficult to get some sense of orientation because everything looks the same. The bland colours combined with the annoying enemies and hard bosses made this game often very painful to play through. I didn't even bother doing the fetch quest as the game intended, I looked it up on the internet and was done with it. Despite this, I think I will enjoy Echoes more on a second playthrough but I don't think that's gonna happen anytime soon 😅 I'm tackling Prime 3 now.
I have both the Wii version of the Metroid Prime Trilogy and a unused copy of Metroid Prime 2 Echoes never opened, I got a couple of years ago in the bargin bin for a penny.
If Prime is so good where is Quadraxis in it then? Checkmate primechuddies echoesGODS win gain
If you love Quadraxis so much, WHY DON'T YOU MARRY HIM?
To your credit I do mention at 5:33 that Echoes definitely has better bosses than Prime. So I admit that's a point for Echoes.
Your review of this game is spot on. I really do like Prime 2 and thinks it's an underappreciated game to give it credit for. But I always prefer Prime 1 & 3 more. For the longest time, I can't think of why I liked them more than 2. But your review perfectly sums it up. It can be stressful & tedious to complete and I have played other Metroid games that were difficult. Like Samus Returns & Dread. But I found those acceptable because of it's 2D perspective, they weren't an slog and were more satisfying. Even with the Harder Mode or Dread Mode in Metroid Dread. Prime 2 takes alot of pressure and some like the Boost Guardian, Alpha Blogg & Spider Guardian ( GameCube version ) are such an pain in the butt. Which I'm surprised you didn't complaint about. But like you said, it is an experimental game and while they succeed for the most part, other low points could've been improved or tweaked. I agree it's the weakest of the trilogy. But that don't mean it's bad. Dare I say it's pretty good even. I just prefer the other Prime games more and whether you think it's better than this or worst or whatever is all subjective. Excellent job.
Thanks so much, and it's funny you say that. The bosses you mention drove me nuts and I considered mentioning them. This footage was captured on the gamecube and I died 4 times to the spider guardian, almost threw my controller out the window. With that said, I still think the challenge Echoes presents with its bosses was a net improvement over Prime 1, and didn't want to muddy things too much by going into its more brutal bosses.
And I agree, I know this video comes off like I hate Echoes, but I still think its a great game. Just really not to my taste, and not able to compete with the other two for me.
Ok. I’m probably the biggest fan of Echoes you’ll ever meet. As much as I loved Prime 1, Prime 2 was my personal favorite. It’s a much more hardcore Metroid experience, it’s Zelda’s A Link To the Past with the dark Aether, and I enjoyed the dark and foreboding atmosphere much more than Prime 1.
It’s a darker game overall and I just loved the atmosphere and it was also a much more challenging game too. Not to mention it was a graphically more impressive game than Prime 1 pushing the GameCube to its limit, it’s no slouch of a sequel.
Remind me to come back to this
hey
@@astarothaguilera4938 thanks
Yo yo yo! Don't forget to add it to "watch later" hahah!
@@mrsnulch thanks hahah I finished it
interesting. I used to dislike prime 2 as a teenager as it was too scary for me. couldn't get through the opening section. but with every replay of the series I ended up liking it more and more. it's now my top prime game. my best friend always liked echoes best and actually dropped prime 3 because it was so bad.
Lol I was playing prime remastered yesterday and finally got past that same part in phazon mines. It was the reason I bounced off the game for so long. But man I'm really enjoying the game better now that's behind me
I know right?! That part comes out of nowhere and if you die during that sequence it's SO demotivating to do it all over again.
Still my favorite Metroid game of all time
I disagree with your complaints about this game.
First and for most yes while the ammo system and the pacing in terms of the order you get your weapons was initially a weird new addition for me I actually liked the fact that you get the dark and light beams early while slowly working your way up towards getting the third annihilator beam. Having an ammo counter in my opinion added more depth to the combat as it basically forced you to use alternate beam weapons sparingly and take advantage of their damage output against certain enemy types while also discovering specific weaknesses and advantages that you can use the same beam type against the same type of enemy (i.e using the dark beam charged shot is effective at quickly disposing those ever so troublesome dark pirate commandos which you will encounter often later in the game). Not being able to spam and stick with your favorite beam type for a majority of the game really forced you to get creative with your strategy and save up as much ammo for future boss encounters which could get very difficult later on.
Not to mention The Annihilator Beam was actually a pretty great and useful final weapon you get towards the end of the game. Sure it may not be able to one shot certain enemies with a charged shot like the Plasma Beam in Prime 1 but it had the same damage output for it's noncharged shots combined with the fact that The Annihilator Beam fires much faster than the Plasma Beam. There's also the fact that the Annihilator Beam's shots tend to home in on enemies and the one thing I love so much about it is it has the ability to energize crystals and beacons with dark energy which will draw Ing to their inevitable deaths due to them also being energized with light energy which the creatures of the dark world hate and since there are usually loads of crates lying around in nearly every room ammo management for the Annihilator Beam was never really a huge issue for me.
Yes the color variants for the environments weren't as diverse as previous Metroid games but I loved the fact that it still gave off the feeling of going to one completely different environment to another. Ranging from the dry dessert of Agon Wastes. The wetlands of Torvus Bog and The Mechanical Tron like city structure of Sanctuary Fortress really felt like some new and interesting additions to the series. I actually liked the dark and horrific atmosphere of Dark Aether. Being able to only go from crystal/beacon to crystal/beacon while also being forced to fight the Ing in order to prevent damage to your health from the poisonous atmosphere of dark aether until you got the light suit really kept you on your toes and gave the game sort of a survival horror like feel.
Really the only complaint I have to agree with is the sky temple key hunt. As if the hunt for the chozo artifacts wasn't confusing having to search for the 8 keys in order to fight the final boss was a major pain in the ass. Having to scan every deceased Luminoth and go from the light to dark world felt tedious and time consuming.
Other than that I see Prime 2 as a worthy successor to Prime 1 in every aspect and is currently my number 1 favorite game in the Prime trilogy to date. I haven't yet finished Prime 3 so my full thoughts on that game are still up for debate.
I love Prime 2 but its got issues for sure. High highs and low lows. Aeither might be quite a bit more bland than Tallon 4, but its lore might be more interesting. I love the Luminoth and their struggle against the ING.
The ING! Lol. And interesting, I see where you're coming from but I don't find Aeither more interesting, Tallon 4 is still my favorite planet ever. I love learning about the Chozo and how they had to abandon it, I just think it has more interesting lore. But I see what you mean since you get a bit more "personal" with the Luminoth, you actually get to meet one and see how their fallen soldiers view the Ing, so that is pretty cool I must admit. Wait I actually do admit that at 23:57!
Lol, did realize how funny ING looked until your reply.
Now I can't refer to them any other way. Watch out for the ING man!!!
Yeah, after seeing your video, MP2 wasnt good as people usually tells.
I personally prefer MP3 over it.
I think Nintendo did well in doing MP4 right after remaster of MP1.
If MP2 or MP3 get remaster, that would be at switch 2.
Echoes is my favorite game but I more or less agree with every one of your points. I guess I just feel differently about how much those issues matter, especially in comparison to Prime 1. Great video
Thanks for the respectful comment, mad respect! I also totally see why many people are considering Echoes the better game. It sort of comes down to what you value and how it all clicks together for you. I still do like Echoes, but the things I mention in the video personally frustrate me to the point where I just can't put it ahead of the others!
Played this game for the first time 2 years ago and I wanted to pull my hair out all the way through. You put into words extremely well why this one didn't land for me, and even offered some new perspective I didn't have. Great video
The majority of the commenters so far have been team Echoes, so it's great to have a comrade on my side! I found Echoes insufferable when I first played it as well. I definitely appreciate it more now, but for the reasons mentioned in the video I still find it inferior to the others. Cheers!
@@mrsnulch ahh well in that case, Id be eager to join the trenches!
@@undergalaxy775 I wonder if Retro thought that Prime 1 was a bit easy, so they used limited ammo to make it harder???? So the player can't over power enemies , but instead focus on survival?????
@@orangeslash1667 that could be, though funnily enough that didnt even register as a flaw in my mind until the video mentioned it. I merely found it overly repetitive and confusing
@@undergalaxy775 Fun Fact: Prime 3 was originally suppose to be bigger, but hardware limitations prevented them from doing so. The end result became the exact opposite of Prime 2.
I'm already a snluch fan but if the next video isn't on luigi's mansion we got a problem
Hahah thanks for being sub'd my dude! I'd love to make a video on that, but there are a few issues. One is that I never played the 3rd one on the 3DS, so my knowledge is incomplete. Two is that I haven't played the first one in many years and lost my gamecube disc!
But I will try to get my hands on it before October - that's when I plan to release my "spooky" videos, and I'd be remiss if a Luigi's Mansion retrospective didn't make that list haha. Cheers!
Honestly I agree with this mostly. Like Echos is still a good game but out of the trilogy deffo the weakest. Though I disagree on the Annihilator Beam being a disappointment in most aspects. Except in looks. And instead say the bosses after you get it don’t really promote you using both other than one phase of Emperor Ing.
Another thing I think makes the Dark World unbearable is how fast it drains your health without the dark suit and how long it takes you to get to it and then to get to the light suit. It is so unbalanced.
Though I do have two criticisms that I would put on. The Grenchlers can die. They are more annoying than the Sheegoth and they are pretty much the same enemy. And the boss lineup is kind of forgettable minus the three temple bosses, Dark Samus’ fights, Emperor Ing and the worst to boss fights the Spider Guardian and Boost Guardian that can eat lemons and burn. The rest of the bosses aren’t that good or are forgettable if you haven’t played in a while. 3 imo has the best boss line up and that is even with having Mogenar or however you spell its name
You're actually right, I didn't want to get too into that, but I also would agree Corruption has the best bosses. And to go further, I think Prime 4 will have the best bosses in the series. Since it's coming out in the Fromsoft era where challenging and intense bosses are once again mainstream, I'm really hoping for 4 to combine that sweet Metroid Prime gameplay with some insane bosses that surpass all 3 games in the trilogy so far.
Here is my take. Prime 2 does do many things better than prime one and could very easily be considered to be a superior game, but the faults prime 2 does have hold it back. My main issues are as follows: 1. Agon wastes is a bad first level. It feels barren and the lack of music makes it feel unpleasant to travel through. Chozo ruins doesnt have this problem bc the music, even though it starts out with a more ambient feel, will evolve into a funky bop that makes traversing the area fun and exciting. Also chozo ruins feels lived in, like you are exploring a place people actually used to live in, while agon feels like you are just running round a desert some people attempted to live in but gave up shortly after starting. 2. I like the idea of the dark and light beams being more powerful than your typical beam powers, and the ammo system is semi justified but flawed. I always thought a better system would be to have your l and d ammo regenerate slowly over time and it could regenerate faster when you got the beam ammo expansions. Because of the ammo system, using the annihilator beam and the beam combos are just too impractical. Sure I can defeat enemies faster with those than any other way, but at the cost of utterly decimating my reserves. You will use like 80% of your l and d ammo just to clear a room of space pirates with the annihilator beam, or every beam combo shot will take 25% of your reserves. 3. I completely agree that the pacing for acquiring the beams is bad. You dont get the annihilator beam till you practically have nothing left to do but get sky temple keys and open a few doors.
I fully agree with you and that's a great point about Chozo Ruins vs Agon Wastes, I almost wish I had mentioned that haha. Chozo Ruins is one of my favourite areas ever because you really feel like the Chozo lived and learned there. You can see their nursery, great hall, reflecting pool, etc. You could almost picture them strolling through those halls, discussing astronomy and philosophy, before they suddenly had to scram. Whereas Agon Wastes is just completely in ruins, a little less interesting and not much going on.
And cool point about beam ammo slowly regenerating, then maybe you could speed up regeneration by mucking enemies with the opposite beam. Now that would be a system I could get behind.
I did enjoy Metroid Prime 2, and i think it was a necessary sequel, but man... In so many moments this game made me frustrated.... Dark Aether was not really fun to explore because i was getting killed by breathing, and some enemies were far too anoying to deal with. When i finished the Torvus Bog, i remember i was tired of the game, but when i arrived in the Sanctuary Fortress, i really started to love the game, but the first 2 areas were... harder than they should have been in my opinion. It has some of the best boss fights in the series, but some of the worse too. Yeah, the Spider Guardian can burn in the dephs of hell and i would be happy. The Dark Samus Battles are pretty cool tho and Quadraxis was awesome. I think Prime 2 has huge ups, and really low downs. It's a good game overall, but i think it went too hard many times.
Yeah, I'm with you there. I know it comes off like I really hate the game in this video, but I do think it has some strong suits. Sanctuary is one of the coolest areas in the series. But I'm glad we're on the same page about the dark world being a slog and the boring atmosphere, those are two big things that hold the game down for me.
@@mrsnulch I don't think the dark world is boring per se, but having to explore when my health is constantly being drained is just far too hard for it's on good. Like, after i got the Light Suit, i had a lot of fun exploring these areas, but before that, is was a pain to go through. I also think that the atmosphere is good, but comparing to Primes 1 and 3 (SPECIALLY THE GFS VALHALLA) it feels pretty repetitive having to backtrack it before getting the light suit. Oh, and i hate the Spider Guardian
I gotta say, the fetch quest at the end of these games is integral to the experience...I would actually be upset if it was taken out
I'm not saying it should be taken out, I also enjoy the fetch quests in both games because I find it fun to search for the artifacts and read the clues. I'm saying that it should be optional, with a secret ending / reward for curious players. They shouldn't be a mandatory roadblock to beating the game, because not everyone likes revisiting the entire map at that stage in the game. Both quests were added soley to pad out the runtime, and would be more exciting if they were a part of a secret.
@@mrsnulchthe clues make the prime 2 fetch quest seem confusing, but in actuality most of the keys are hidden in areas that are only accessible at the very end w the light suit and annihilator beam. u can just ignore the hints and ull find the keys on ur own super easily.
Eugh... Then I guess I dislike an integral part of the prime series as a whole
@@federicoricca2512 that's OK, there's plenty of other games to play
@@kevinbuchanan67 like every other Metroid without a fetch quest at the end
this game had a habbit to crash at times for me soo, not really a favorit, and another was the hassle to change back and forth between the worlds.
These are all legitimate points. Great video 👍. Couldn't agree more tbh, still like the game, but it's not one I like to replay like 1 and 3.
Kinda makes me worried about prime 4 tbh because retro has explicitly stated they are tired of making prime games which is why I'm guessing they originally went with Bandai namco.
Yeah I'm with you, I still like Echoes and am worried I came off like I can't stand it. It's a good game. But it has these issues that just grind my gears and make it inferior to the others.
As for Prime 4, I have a feeling they will be playing it super "safe" with that game. It looks like it's leaning a lot closer to Prime 1 and 3, so I think it will be a safe return to form, but not do anything crazy and blow our minds. Which I'm ok with.
First uh, before I give my thoughts lol. Good video, really like your editing, and refreshing to hear a different take because Prime 2 is a recent fav for the fanbase. You made a really good vid here.
Ngl though uh, I hard disagree with your take on the beam ammo LOL. I do know it's a common criticism at the time, but generally speaking it is one of THE reasons fights feel more engaging because it gives an extra resource to worry about. In Prime 1 Super Missiles are the dominant strat, and it takes up a ton of ammo so I don't see what makes it much different.
As for the annihilator beam....lol. So others brought up it actually does really good damage. But it's homing properties are really nice, and even better it helps to make dark aether exploration more comfy.
You mentioned the light beam nuking ing when they touch light bubbles. Where the annihilator beam creates a variant that makes Ing want to run straight into them.
Paired with the light suit it makes exploring Dark Aether a non-issue. Maybe you got the impression it does less damage because the enemies you sampled were spongey.
Also about the box thing, I was like 9 when I first played this, and noticed using ammo on the boxes gave me beam ammo lol.
As for the key quest at the end....I would agree with you if Prime 2 hadn't given you a lot more options for getting around the world. The light suit lets you travel between energy controllers, essentially creating a 4-way elevator. Add onto that how each region has elevators to the other regions, it's world design is actually super smart.
For the record, Prime 1 is one of my favorite games of all time (right behind Majora which is funny) but for me I only like Prime 2 marginally less.
Actually when I was younger I received Prime 1&2 at the same time and played them at the same time. I generally seemed to enjoy Prime 2 more but Prime 1's atmosphere was stronger for sure.
I think for me Prime 2 has the far more engaging gameplay and I think that's a huge deal. Atmosphere is important but so is the video game part.
In fact, imma go ahead and say it. Imo Prime 3 is easily the weakest game of the three. It has a lot of great spectacle and art direction, but it has by far the weakest gameplay of the three imo. Most of that coming down to the world-design being the weakest of the three and hyper mode snapping it in two. Not to say there's not great stuff Prime 3 does. I think the story is really cool and epic. I do love that spectacle, and the pointer controls are amazing. I love using those controls so much, and the grapple beam is a lot of fun. But idunno there's just....Something about prime 3's combat that doesn't click with me and it mostly revolves around hypermode. But that's just my opinion lol. Glad you seem to like it a lot more than me.
Anyway hope you don't take this too personally. Obviously if you don't like the ammo system, all good! Just providing my own perspective, and why I think this game is kino.
Have a good one :)
Some good points. I still disagree. I do think the ammo and beams work better in combat than primes. But I can tell it did really bother you, so I'll put it down to difference in preference.
Also, the dark world being difficult is not the same as mindlessly going back and forth in the same area over and over. That just makes the game tedious.
Prime 2 does have a worse game ending fetch quest than Prime. The clues were more obtuse than Primes, and getting the keys were more bland to get than the different solutions of Prime.
I've only really played 2D metroids. Is Prime 1 really as good as Super? How is it compared to Dread? If someone could answer my questions that would be nice
I don't think the 2D and 3D titles can be compared.
All the things that define a metroidvania work way better in the 2D games for me: Exploring, collecting new things, finding new areas. Revisiting old areas doesn't feel as tedious.
But the 3D games are really immersive, which is nice. The atmosphere can be fantastic and drew me in more than the 2D games did.
I would say if you really like the gameplay specifically of the 2D games, it's not fully replicated in the 3D. 3D games have a slower pace. But the game design and atmosphere are captured incredibly well. If you want the short answer, I see no reason not to buy Metroid Prime Remastered on the Switch. I'd recommend all Metroid Prime games any day.
nahhh not as good as super. the gameplay is way slower.
even if you go through the whole game only scanning what you need to it's still slow.
its definitely an essential game to play but not as good or replayable as super metroid.
It is not the same
But it is very metroid
I mean it's okay to have the wrong opinion. ;P Just kidding, But I still think Prime 2 is quite batter than 1 The world is more interconnected and the backtracking is kept to a minimum. I love the dark and light theme and I found the addition of an ammo limit interesting. But I'm also a massive fan of survival horror and this game was basically a "survival-horror-lite". Also I've never had a problem with the artifact hunt to begin with because it is an extension of the Metroid gameplay: find stuff, but now you're at full power.
LOL I find with Echoes it's a 50/50 war between those who think it's the best of the 3, and those who think it's the worst. Regarding your points about the backtracking and interconnectivity, I agree for sure that's an improvement Echoes made.
For the ammo limit being interesting and the game being a survival-horror-lite, I can't quite agree with you on that for the reasons I mention in the video. In a survival horror like Resident Evil, if you run out of ammo you're in deep trouble. So there is genuine suspense and strategy required to conserve your resources.
In Echoes, if you run out of ammo you're not in trouble at all, the game just gets boring and annoying using the power beam until you find more. You can also always get more by just shooting boxes or backtracking to a recharge station. So the concept falls completely flat for me and I find all the beams boring. This is of course a matter of preference.
As for the artifact hunt, I also enjoy those sections and like finding them, it's classic. My main argument is that they should be optional and have a secret reward (cool weapon, hidden ending, etc) because making them mandatory makes them less interesting and breaks the pace of the game.
Either way, you make good points and thanks for the watch!!
@@mrsnulch I never found myself running out of ammo to be honest. And if I did I would simly use other sub weapons that are stronger than the regular beam. I think it's a matter of finding the right use for each beam. And when I said Survival-Horror lite I am more talking about the aspect of fight or flight in general. Sometimes it is better to just leave the enemie behind. No point in fighting hunter Ing when they don't even do much to stand in your way. Just light up a light sphere with the light beam and move on.
It's always been interesting what negatives bother people more in each game. Each game could be and is someone's favourite in the trilogy. But for what it's worth here are some disagreements I have with the video for whatever that's worth.
Obviously the following is all my opinion as the video is your opinion.
In regards to difficulty the original non wii version was too difficult in two particular bosses against the devs wishes. If you enjoy the difficulty of those bosses that's fair but the devs have since adjusted it.
I agree that it sucks you don't get many weapons throughout but comparing the best beam from 1 and 3 on weak enemies to the best beam against a mini boss in 2 is a bit disingenuous. The annihilator beam does feel less powerful in its sound design and effects but its still much more powerful and great to have when you get it, you can't use it all the time due to the ammo system but while on the topic the ammo system is quite enjoyable to me.
Prime 1 had infinite ammo for all beams but the wave bream and ice bream didn't feel more powerful and were mainly just stronger or weaker against different enemies, it still meant there was never a reason to go back to the power beam or even the ice or wave bream for the most part, the plasma beam feels great granted but it defeats the purpose of even being able to swap beams half the time by the end.
In prime 3 combat has very few options because you just have a few attacks that get stronger varients, in the 2d games that works because enemies are more obstacles that can be defeated really quickly.
In prime 2 all beams have utility due to the ammo system. The power beam can kill everything but rather slowly, worth swapping to for weak enemies or in a pinch if you're low. The light and dark beams both feel and are powerful because you can't just use use your most powerful attacks all the time. Worrying about ammo during combat also increases the decisions you need to make and all together to me makes combat in prime 2 feel way better then either of the other games.
When you say atmosphere I think your issue is more aesthetics or that you find the look of the world too samey which is fair and a common critisicm. But again your comparison of how the games can look to me showed screenshots that would look similar when there is more variety to the areas then that, even if it's all dark.
I think the sanctuary fortress is one of the coolest looking locations in the series and other areas combined with their different themes give them their own feel. There is less visual variety then in other games granted but it's not as bad as you suggest in my opinion.
The dark world doesn't help the complaints about the game looking the same granted. But when showing off how your health drained in the dark world you showed a early part of the game where you may have not even had the dark suit yet. The dark world becomes very manageable as the game goes on and you get the tools to conquer it. If anything my complaints would be the dark world can be a bit limited due to each area being closed off compared to light world versions but that's not a big deal to me.
Saying it's not a good sequal because it has the fetch quest the first one you have so much admiration for does seems odd to me as it is better in the 2nd in my opinion.
Firstly if you're not scanning luminoth bodies when you find them I think you're not using a major game mechanic that the devs expect you to use, it's an important way story and tone are communicated in the games. But even if you do miss a body or two the game tells you where the bodies are, but also these days they can just google it even if that's not ideal.
And at least in prime 2 you get a (admittedly limited) form of fast travel to speed up the process and often end up in new areas you havnt explored yet.
Prime 2 makes backtracking better by making all areas more connected, magmore caverns was an issue since it was the only way to get between locations alot of the time.
I feel some of the comparisons of things from one game to another were bent a bit in favour of your arguments and I'm not super fond of that.
Considering alot of people watch things like this who havnt played the games or havnt in a while and this can create somewhat false narratives of how things actually are.
But I respect your opinion and enjoyed hearing a point of view that was so opposite to my own.
Oh and also the reason the ammo mechanic hasn't returned is not because it's a failed experiment necessarily (although due to mixed reactions I assume it won't return) but because retro didn't make another prime game except for 3 which didn't have multiple beams at all.
And lastly as I'm not sure I made this clear.
I think all 3 prime games are amazing and my favourite is not always 2.
And also I'm not suggesting you're intentionally skewing the narrative here just that I don't think it represents things as they are imo.
Prime 2 has been my favorite game in the series for many years, and I want to lay out my reasons for why I think it's better than Prime one and three.
For starters this game is moodier, more mazelike and by extension more challenging than the other two games. Metroid's gameplay is all about mastering mazes within mazes in total Isolation, and this games emphasis on moody atmosphere and challenge embodies what Metroid should be in my mind.
Prime 2 expands the Metroid universe better than Prime one or three did. Exploring a world that isn't just another forgotten Chozo outpost is incredibly memorable, from their architecture, their weaponry, and their 3d hieroglyphic written language, these aliens and their world make this game stand out from all other Metroid games in an amazing way. I felt like Prime three tried to do this with the multiple worlds that it added, but on the other hand, all the human characters that game added heavily detracted from the isolating atmosphere that I feel makes Metroid great.
The locations you visit in Prime 2 are also much more inspired than the collection of Super Mario themed locations you travel through in Prime 1. The Agon Wastes is clearly inspired by Arrakis from Dune, with its past as green paradise, but in the present, it is an uninhabitable desert filled with giant sand worms. Torvus Bog poses the greatest initial challenge of the main locations in the game, and obtaining the gravity boost midway through this area might be the single most satisfying moment in the series. Sanctuary Fortress is the most visually dazzling and mazelike area in the Metroid series, and the upgrades you get for completing this part of the game such as the Annihilator beam and the light suit make this area of the game probably my favorite location in Metroid. Prime three comes close to this game’s greatness in this aspect, but is dragged down by forcing
you to interact with the federation.
Adding the Luminoth and having the entire game on a new alien world with an interdimensional war between moths and spiders opened all sorts of possibilities for environmental design, and in Prime 2 the art direction is sublime and beyond creative. Prime 2 has the most jaw dropping rooms you'll ever see in the series, and for this reason I hope Prime 4 takes notes from this game. I would be a little more than slightly disappointed if in Prime 4 we go to another Chozo world with the same familiar motifs slightly remixed in an artistically safe way, when there is so much more
possible that can be done with Metroid's art direction.
As for the typical gripes people have with this game, here are my responses:
"I don't like that the beams have ammo in this game."
Adding beam ammo to Prime 2 enhances the difficulty and forces combat to be more strategic, which adds a degree of thematic substance for a series about losing everything and having to build yourself back up totally on your own. If you use the correct weapon for the job using a little experimentation, you'll find that you'll almost never run out of ammo anyway.
"The light suit and dark suit are ugly."
I don't agree with this, and these suits were designed by moth people, not human beings. Their fashion standards are probably a bit different from ours. These suits are also a hell of a lot more memorable than the PED suit in prime 3, or the Phazon suit in Prime 1 which is just another reskin of the varia suit.
"This game is too challenging and some of the bosses are too hard."
Number one, get good. Two, this is an aspect that all the best Metroid games have in common, so I don't see why this game gets singled out.
"The transitions between dimensions take up too much time."
I actually agree with this, but I don't think this is enough to make Prime 2 worse than Prime 1.
Those are some solid arguments, some I agree with some I don't! Starting with your finishing points, anyone who says the game is "too challenging" or the "dark suit and light suit are ugly" is probably insane haha. I think Echoes has the best challenge balance of the 3 games, and I love the suits.
I would disagree about ammo adding anything to the combat or making it more strategic for the reasons I mention in the video. I personally just found it tedious, but I see why some may like that tension they feel knowing they might run out. I think the combat challenge in a Metroid game should come down to the enemy's design, not limiting the amount of shots Samus can fire until her damage gets nerfed.
You make good arguments for the 3 regions, I never caught the Arrakis parallel. I just think the areas all sort of blur together in a grim muddy soup for me sometimes ,and this may come down to the dark world. Sanctuary is definitely the stand-out region and one of the best in the series.
Regarding your overall preference of Aiether over Tallon IV when it comes to the lore and such, I have to hard-disagree on that one. It is cool to meet the Luminoth and see their struggle against the Ing, but I find the lore in the first game far more interesting. I love learning about the Chozo after they've already abandoned the planet, sort of showing their rise to genius then their utter collapse as a meteor ate away at their new home, and you can see the beauty of Tallon IV starting to wither away. I don't think Aiether is as interesting but this is FULLY a matter of preference.
Either way, solid comment and thanks for the view
The thing about prime echoes is that just like prime hunters its completely skippable storywise. It hardly deserves the title of mainline game tbh.
That's actually a good point, the story doesn't tie in with the rest. Although to be fair (and I can't believe I'm now about to defend Echoes against you here given the fact that I just made a whole video bashing it), I think Echoes successfully shows just how much damage Phazon can lay on a planet. It doesn't fully tie into the other games, but by the time you get to Corruption, you've seen two planets get wrecked by Phazon so in that sense it does contribute.
Anhihilator beam only serves as Sonic Boom beam.
Yeah the Sonic Boom slapped pretty hard, but I also found that it gobbled up so much ammo that it was rarely worth using. Right from the top of the game to the bottom I still feel like the best approach is to just use the dark and light beams everywhere you go lol.
great video the quality was incredible
Thanks so much! I do wish I had captured the metroid prime footage on an emulator for better video quality - the footage is all running off gamecube/wii and looks a bit sloppy. Either way though, glad you enjoyed the video!
@@mrsnulch no it's fine if anything it just helps highlight 1 the issue with Prime 2's graphics and 2 how good the hd remaster is
@@lemonking3851 Ah good point, thanks that makes me feel better about using such footage! I do use HD footage a bit as well. I kick off the video with HD to "hook" the viewer in with the snazzier graphics, and also drop it in a few times throughout the video like 24:26, so you can really see the comparison. I guess using the OG hardware gives my video a vintage feel if nothing else lol. Thanks for the feedback!
@@mrsnulch All good can't wait for the next video!
Ah Metroid Trilogy, the game i got two copies of and never read on my Wii.
Echoes was incredibly immersive, but also unnecessarily painful, and didn't have a strong connection to the first game besides the title and the main character. I did really enjoy the world and the world building, and the gameplay with the bosses was difficult in satisfying ways, but I think a new control scheme would help with a lot of those.
I have never finished 2 because one prioritizes pretty natural environments. 2 is just so ugly to me
I agree, I always found it to have a flat and ugly appearance. I fully respect those who like the mood of this game, but I don't think it pulls off the "dark and moody" look as well as other games like Bloodborne or Hollow Knight. It just looks pretty ugly across the board in my opinion as well.
@@mrsnulch I was hoping 2 would get remastered to improve the graphical quality but after 1 released alone I lost all hope. I guess maybe there’s hope for a shadow drop still but I doubt it
Echoes would be a prime candidate for a remake. The sort of face-lift the first game received would probably do wonders for the drab looking environments.
I'll respect your opinion but I honestly cannot comprehend why anyone would consider this game ugly. Torvus Bog and Sanctuary Fortress are two of my favorite Metroid areas.
@@mrsnulch Comparing Prime 2 to Bloodborne is an unfair comparison because the latter was released in 2015.
lol didn't umos the first guardian lose the energy to the first reactor to that very first ING you fought? the one down stairs literally from him lol. bro couldn't even be bothered getting it an elevator ride away. then later on we see this massive city they built. why not put the energy controllers in there i mean it seems most of the population is there probably better guarded from the ing there,
The Luminoth were brave warriors, but they weren't very bright. For some reason they created the annihilator beam as well
@@mrsnulch Are you hopeful for metroid prime 4 dude?
@@jinxxpwnage Yes, very much so! Although I do have some slight concerns. I may make a video on this topic. I think from the trailer, they are playing it very safe by sticking close to homages to Prime 1 and Prime 3 and throwing in some fan service, but we will see how it plays out. I'm 100% sure the game will be good, but it might be a bit underwhelming.
Nice Video ! Sub & Big Like ! And Love Retro Metroid Games !
This game is good but not perfect (especially with the annoying bosses).
Doom eternal weapons run out faster, and bfg amo is harder to get. 👀prime echos is not the only game that run out of Amo.
Yes lots of games have ammo not just Echoes, but I think other games are designed around it better, and it doesn't suit the Metroid formula. Metroid games are all about Samus getting stronger and stronger across the game and I don't think limitations like this work or make the combat any better.
Metroid Prime 1 is definitely better, even with the downsides. 😊 It's a timeless classic
AGREED!
Altho I disagree with some of your points, you laid out your ideas clearly
Echoes it's just too long and boring in half through. The first half of the game is so bad compare to the second half.
I never seen about people doubting about MP before it came out in 2002 🤔 if there was someone who doubt it, they must have been idiots 😂 Prime is the best entry in the whole series.
The thing is, before Metroid Prime came out there hadn't been a Metroid game in 8 years (Super Metroid). When Metroid Prime was announced and the first trailer was shown, people were worried because it was a slow-paced first person shooter. They weren't idiots, they waited 8 years for another game like Super Metroid (a fast-paced sidescroller), and finally they are shown a slow paced FPS that looked like it was Nintendo's response to Halo. There were fair concerns before it came out.
Now if you actually played it and still hated it on the other hand, I'd agree you're probably an idiot haha
@@mrsnulch 😆
Big disagree but ok.
If everyone thought like you, we'd have world peace by now. Disagree, but OK. I feel the same way to those who prefer Echoes - can't get behind it, but all good man haha
Echoes is the best game in the Metroid series. Lay off the Phazon.
Not just the Prime trilogy, but the entire Metroid series you say! And I'm the one snorting fat lines of Phazon??!
@@mrsnulch Hell yeah. You have that good shit. I want some so I can get some Phazon fever
@@johnjackson9751 Haha I don't share my hollywood purple slime rails, sorry my dude
Nah it's a great sequel. It has it's dull moments but so does prime 1
It has many more dull moments. Maybe watch the video
This is a really good video but my one criticism would be that a lot of the time when you're talking you sound too angry/confrontational as if you're struggling to get your words out. Cheers
Thanks so much for the feedback, I realize listening back that my voice totally comes off a bit more harsh/intense than I intended. I was trying to get this video out within a week of the Metroid Prime: Beyond trailer, so I think some of that pressure comes off in the VO retakes 😂
I'll totally keep this in mind for future videos and thanks for the watch
filtered
Hollow Knight has very similar looking areas but of course it's a problem when hot take youtuber wants to make their videos longer lmao.
You're missing the point of why I put that footage there. It wasn't to make the video longer, using different footage wouldn't change the length of the video.
I show that footage because Hollow Knight is an example of a game that sticks to a very dark and gloomy tone but gets away with it. Even despite its similar looking areas it still manages to have great atmosphere across the board and make its areas feel distinct from each other in other ways. So people defending Echoes might try to compare it to Hollow Knight, but I do not think Echoes pulled off what Hollow Knight did.
Nah Echoes is best metroid
Nah bro, no chance!
First
You're a legend.