I greatly enjoyed this analysis! It's cool too hear an opposing argument for once. Now, allow me to counter a few points. *Regarding the Song of Healing:* You claim that if the Hero of Time knew the song of healing then he wouldn't need to die with regrets. However, in Majoras Mask there is a poe collector who says, "You cannot heal all souls with that song," and Sharpe says, "Hmm? Somehow, my heart is eased. This melody has a serenity to it... And yet... To one of the dead and darkness, like myself, a song like that no longer holds meaning for me." So it is possible that Link couldn't heal him soul because (1) His soul is immune to the notes (2) He died before he had a chance to play the song, and ended up like Sharp. *Regarding the Magic Spin Attack:* The Hero of Time obtained this ability by going to the great fairy of power. It is also where he obtains the magic meter. So it is impossible for the Hero of Time to teach this technique to the Hero of Twilight because he needs a great fairy to learn it. *Regarding the Hero of Time Being Remembered:* Renado from Kakario Village directly mentions the Hero of Time. He says, "In Hyrule, countless tales are told of the ancient hero...and your deeds bring them all to mind." So you have a point there. The Hyrule Historia is flat out wrong.
Interesting points! I'm a little perplexed though. Counter to Counter: Song of Healing: It never says that the Song of Healing will heal your soul forever of that the song of healing will work on everything! And surely, souls change overtime. So even though the song worked at one point there is no guarantee it will work later. It's possible that Hero of Time's regret was a different kind of pain than being a deku scrub. The song of healing does not work on everything. You are leaning on too much speculation when you assume the Song of Healing would heal everything. Magic Spin Attack: In Majoras Mask, Link gets the magic meter by helping the Great Fairy in Clock Town. He couldn't "train" himself to learn it again. The Hero's Shade also didn't need to teach the Hero of Twilight the "quick spin" since The Hero of Twilight already knew how to do it. Not sure about the "shield poking move" though. Maybe it's not worth teaching cause it makes you stationary? (It also has limited usage in OoT) The Hero of Time Being Remembered: I'm... not sure why you countered that point? I was agreeing with you. You tried proving that Hyrule Historia is wrong because it claims "Link felt regret about not being remembered." I was agreeing with you by showing that Renado's comment (if it's about Ocarina of Time Link) would prove that The Hero of Time is still remembered. @@ratedn
@@TheBreadPirate I want to point another thing out about the Song of Healing: it's never actually used to help the individual that plays it and you HAVE to have a magical instrument to actually achieve the effect. On my first point, when Link uses the song to get himself out of the deku scrub point, he's not easing his own regrets but the regrets OF THE ORIGINAL DEKU SCRUB'S SOUL THAT RESIDES WITHIN THE MASK. Have to remember that Link is still very much alive as well. So if Link dies and no one is around with a magical instrument like the Ocarina of Time or Fairy Ocarina to play the song for him, he could still very much be filled with regrets that persist to Twilight Princess's time.
@@TheBreadPirate - We know for a fact that the Song of Healing works for HoT because it healed him in MM, and this was while he was already dealing with "searching for his precious friend", Navi. Characters like Sharp had "sold his soul to the devil" (according to Flat), so that's a sufficient explanation to why it doesn't affect him. As for souls changing, this gets too far into headcanon territory to argue over. What we can say for certain is that HoT has a magical way to ease regrets that is proven to affect him. Anything beyond that is all in the imagination. - The fact still stands that the Shade does not teach anything that the Hero of Time knew, so it doesn't provide anything to support the idea that the Shade is HoT and can safely be shelved. Showing the aesthetic, habits, and techniques of the HoT would have been a simple and easy way to signal that the Shade is that hero, yet not a single sign was given. That cannot be ignored. - People very frequently use that comment from Renado to claim that it refers to HoT. I am sorry if I misinterpreted your meaning. I literally saw a mutual acquaintance of ours bring it up a couple of days ago, so apologies for that.
He even killed Ganondorf after he came back. Twilight Ganon is not the same as in OOT . It was confirmed by the Gorons and the canon Nintendo comic from 2018 that Ganondorf was killed again in the child timeline by the legendary hero. The Hero of Time and the fierce diety were combined in to one being and Time could use only small procentage of it's power. That's how he defeated Ganon so easily once he escaped from his seal.
I have my own theory in regards to the Hero's Shade being the Hero of Time. When Link returned to the Child Timeline, he warned Zelda and the King of Hyrule with the Triforce of Courage as proof. After this, the King of Hyrule investigates, and learns of the plotting of Ganondorf and quickly drives him back into Gerudo Valley. While he does this, he proves his worth by helping the Gorons and Zora, and eventually befriends Malon. After spending a short amount of time in Hyrule and befriending the races, Malon and Zelda, he began his adventure looking for Navi, the truth of the Hero of Time being left a secret to the Royal Family. Years of searching, Link returns to Hyrule, unsuccessful in finding Navi but making new friends in the form of Skull Kid, Tatl and Tael. Returning to Hyrule, he fonds Ganondorf had invaded the kingdom, and as a result, takes up the blade as a knight of Hyrule to stand against and perhaps be the one to defeat him, using his newly developed Hidden Skills to better defeat him, but not kill him as he didn't have the Master Sword still behind the door of time. Captured, Ganondorf is set to be executed, but awakens the Triforce of Power and sealed within the Twilight Realm. As a result, Link, Zelda and Impa begin to prepare should Ganondorf return. Link seperates his spirit, into modified Gossip Stones, moddified by Impa, to convert them into Howling Stones. The fragments fueled by his regret of not being the hero to defeat Ganondorf, knowing that he only delayed him at most. He asks his friend, the Skull Kid, to watch over the Temple of Time, which had been taken over by the Lost Woods. Finally, he leaves Hyrule to the Ordona Providence with Malon, having a family to keep them away from Hyrule and closer to the forest to act as it's protector until he passes. The Hero's Shade isn't the Hero of Time fully, but fragments of him. The size of the Fierce Deity, the skills of the Hero of Time, acting as a test to better prepare the next hero, taunting him yet encouraging him, testing him, knowing that he himself was but a young child forced to be a hero and havong to mature without a childhood to return to, but instead trying to ease and prepare his descendant to be a hero.
@FormerlyKownAsCaptainJapanBall Only Link can defeat Gannon. That and Silver Arrows. Whether Link had the Master Sword or not, I'm not sure, but with the Door of Time sealed, I like to think maybe it was done without it, which is how Link lost an eye in the first place. Remember, in OOT, you could defeat Ganondorf with the Big Gorron Sword or the Megaton Hammer. You didn't need the Master Sword. But you needed Light Arrows. It was only with the Triforce of Power that turned Ganondorf into Ganon that made you need the Master Sword to defeat him. I think Link fought Ganondorf, defeated him but lost an eye doing so, and unable to kill him without the Master Sword, brought him to the sages, where they made a Sword specifically created to execute him. He nearly died, but because of the "Divine Prank," the Triforce of Power awakened. At that time, the Master Sword became a necessity which was not available at the time. I'm going into theory territory, but it makes sense to me.
Zelda Devs: "Would be cool to make a throwback reference to Ocarina of Time for the fans with this tutorial skeleton guy you guys designed" Little did they know the sheer CHAOS they were about to unleash
i think it's weird how similar the scabbards are but the absence of the triforce logo is a big detail that i can't think of a good reason why it's not there. while i agree the concept art shows the developers didn't initially intend the hero of shade to be the hero of time they might have changed their minds later.
The female Hero's Shade concept art may have originally been intended to be either the Zelda or Impa of Ocarina of Time before the developers decided to make her the Hero of Time himself for narrative meaning. It's possible Nintendo always intended for the Shade to be someone "important" earlier during development without a specific idea as to who. It wouldn't be until after careful deliberation that the Hero of Time was chosen for his identity.
I always thought the scabbard was magical. It's kind of strange Link just randomly gains it when he gets the master sword and seemingly loses possession of it when he lays down the sword to rest. It's a video game though so I don't think these types of details are going to be accounted for
@@hylianro The sword itself is magical after all so it makes sense that the scabbard could magically manifest on the back of the Hero whenever he removes it from it's pedestal.
@@hylianro I have a feeling it's also Nintendo's headcanon given their unwillingness of explicitly confirming it despite the obvious evidence supporting it.
However, there could be other reasons behind the height discrepancy between adult OoT Link and the Hero’s Shade could be from residual magic due to perhaps multiple uses of the Fierce Deity Mask.
That's a massive stretch and doesn't have any supporting evidence. There are far more times you use the Deku Mask, Goron Mask, and Zora Mask. They are required to be used several times to beat the game (not counting glitches). The Fierce Deity Mask can't even be obtained until the very end of the game, after countless uses of the other masks, right before the fight with Majora, and is only usable in boss fights. While a player can fight Majora and continue off like nothing happened to fight all of the bosses endlessly, Link would have to get the mask, reset time without fighting Majora, and rematch all of the bosses before fighting Majora to use it more than once. And unless he resets time to fight those bosses multiple times, delaying the fight with Majora, that's still only 5 uses at most. It makes sense for the player to do, but doesn't make sense for Link to canonically do.
I remember back in the day when this theory was fresh. The problem with a lot of game fanbases is that if a theory is repeated often enough, it eventually becomes gospel. I've always viewed the Hero of Time being the Hero's Shade being a cool theory, but he also easily could be someone else. Link to the Past Link, for example, isn't directly related to the Hero of Time, but he is the last of the bloodline of Hyrule's Knights. I would also like to mention that one of the songs the Golden Wolf howls is the Ballad of the Gales from Wind Waker. This is a song not even in the same timeline as the Hero of Time, meaning these songs are more likely references rather than implying that this character has personal experience with each song.
Great video, very well-constructed arguments, and I even see merit in a few of them. In my opinion though, the Shade being the hero of time just feels more narratively satisfying than him just being some random guy, and sometimes that's all you need to believe a fan theory lol Either way, definitely glad that I found this channel.
I have a question. you mention that the Hero's shade knows all the songs OoT Link knows, and OoT Link knowing the song of healing means he would never let himself fall into a death full of regret. but if the shade also knew the song of healing, why wouldn't the same apply to him? my only theory is one cannot use the song of healing on themselves, another is needed (like the dancer guy, he wanted to pass on his dance, and Link allowed him to do that, creating the mask he would then use to teach others this dance. the shade's regret being that he was never able to pass on his skills in battle, he'd still need someone to take the resulting mask and use it with the skills imbued into it) as for Link being bested by a normal monster, I never saw the argument as "that eye injury came from the battle that killed him", more it's just a battle injury, and I can ABSOLUTELY see him losing an eye *to protect someone else* who got caught up in a fight. like the one he loves. if we're going with the theory of him staying to protect Romani, and them having to fend off things like aliens to protect the cows, I could absolutely see him getting hurt and losing an eye by taking a blow meant for her, to make sure she survived the night. but that's no proof he's Link, as that could apply to basically any warrior of this era. I must say though, this did honestly convince me, and also makes me feel better. I hated the idea that OoT Link didn't get remembered as a hero and suffered for it, so it's nice to see that isn't actually accurate.
@@Schro_ do you have the source for that? cause the video lists every source I'm aware of and debunked them pretty well. if there's a new statement released I'd like to see it.
Counterpoint: Since the Shade is the result of the child timeline, Link ... grew up. And learned stuff. He learned additional skills and got new armor. The premise that he didn't - implied by the video - is less believable. The scabbard doesn't match because the Master Sword was sealed away for safekeeping, because its only purpose is to defeat Ganon. And the scabbard wouldn't fit a different sword, since the Master Sword is uniquely shaped. The nitpicking over the regret is not concrete evidence, either. He wasn't remembered as a hero, ergo, he couldn't pass on his skills as the hero. Which further lends credence to him learning new skills and proving himself as a knight on his own, even not as The Great Hero.
You're right that there is a period of time between games where Link would have grown up. And the lack of information on what happened during that period of time doesn't prove he isn't the Hero's Shade. But it doesn't prove he is either. It's pure speculation what did or could have happened in that timeframe. And if you pay attention to the video, he does acknowledge the possibility of him learning new techniques and such. However, his point is not to say that the lack of information in itself debunks the theory, his point is that the lack of information shows a lack of evidence in support of the theory. We don't know what happened to Link after Majora's Mask, so saying he joined the Knights of Hyrule and learned all of these techniques and gained some sort of connection to a wolf is speculation, it's not evidence. As for the regret thing, it's not really nitpicking. The scabbard point is nitpicking, because you're right, whomever the Hero's Shade once was, it would be the scabbard for a different sword entirely. The Master Sword isn't really uniquely shaped, not in a way that matters for a scabbard, but the Hero of Time wouldn't have had the Master Sword anyway, not the same scabbard (which... Kind of appeared out of nowhere). The regret, however, is the entire point of the Hero's Shade. It's the explanation for why it exists in the first place, why this being became a Shade instead of passing on, and why they are teaching the Hero of Twilight these techniques. Which brings us to the topic of the regrets themselves... And what you said is the very issue. The Hero's Shade states that he regrets not passing on his techniques. The Japanese version actually more directly states that these techniques are passed down through his bloodline, which only matters here because it kind of nullifies the "he was forgotten ergo he couldn't pass them on" bit you said. If you're teaching the techniques to your descendants, it doesn't really change whether or not you were remembered as a hero by others. They're your family either way, so the only way it could matter is if being forgotten means you never had a family and thus nobody to pass the techniques onto, which... That's a completely separate topic. Point is, being forgotten wouldn't have prevented him from passing on his sword skills to his children. The regret stated in the game says absolutely nothing about a potential connection to the Hero of Time. Once again, it's a lack of evidence supporting the theory they are the same person, even if it is not evidence against the theory itself. But that's a common trend the video points out, not evidence disproving the theory, but the theory lacking evidence in the first place. Back on topic, the regret stated in the game neither supports nor denies a potential connection. But Hyrule Historia gives a different regret, one directly tied to the idea of the Hero's Shade being the Hero of Time. He regrets not being remembered as a hero. And again, this is important because the regret is the entire (in-game) reason for his existence. But here's the issue. While Hyrule Historia states he regrets not being remembered as a hero, Majora's Mask starts off stating the exact opposite, stating that Link was celebrated as a hero of legend. There's also potential evidence in Twilight Princess itself, with Renado mentioning "countless tales of the ancient hero." I say "potential" evidence because this could easily be talking about a different hero, but the same could be said about the Hero's Shade in the first place. Which means that this source of regret doesn't make sense. So one explanation doesn't support the theory, the other contradicts the games and thus is easily disproven. It can't even be both together. Now, again, the cause of the regret is important in that it's the whole point of the character's existence in terms of storytelling, so the regret needs to make sense. But as stated, the regret doesn't directly disprove the idea of the Hero's Shade being the Hero of Time. But that's the whole point of the video. The focus of the video is not finding evidence proving the Hero's Shade isn't the Hero of Time. It's pointing out evidence that denies the evidence supporting the theory. Pointing out the problem with the Hero's Shade regretting not being remembered doesn't prove that the Hero's Shade isn't the Hero of Time, but it does mean that Hyrule Historia can't be trusted as evidence supporting the theory, it does mean that the regret is not evidence supporting the theory. Similarly, the scabbard doesn't prove the lack of connection either, it's just another point that lacks evidence for the explanation. Same goes for the different techniques, the wolf connection, the height difference. There is no evidence denying the possibility of the Hero's Shade being the Hero of Time, but there's also no evidence proving or supporting the possibility either. The whole point of the video is that every point the theory makes is speculation and not actual proof.
Back when I first played Twilight Princess, it was one of the only Zelda games I played, over and over again. I played Wind Waker, and a little bit of Four Swords Adventures, but Twilight Princess was my go-to. I didn't play Ocarina of Time, I was too young to have played it as a kid, and my family didn't even have the Nintendo 64. The Hero's shade seemed just like this badass specter who could teach Link really awesome sword techniques. I knew as a kid there was more to him, because he took the form of a wolf like the Hero of Twilight, and was summoned by the wolf's howl. It wasn't until I discovered the fan theories of the shade being the Hero of Time that I truly realized the Shade shared a bloodline with the Hero of Twilight. This video was very well constructed, I agree with many of the points. I do like the connections people can make between Twilight Princess and Ocarina, they have very similar game structure DNA, as all Zelda games share with locations, music, the timeless tale of courage and wisdom defeating Evil, but at the same time, if the evidence to support the idea that the Hero's shade is not as overwhelming and well-supported as we thought initially, it can still open up possibilities for connecting the Hero's shade to be a descendant of the Hero of time, and ancestor of thr Hero of Twilight. But that will be just as theoretical as the previous theory, and depending on what information we rely on, it will be strengthened or weakened, changing over time. A lot of people are attached to that theory, I understand. But in my heart, I didn't see the Hero of Time in the crimsin eye of the shade. I saw a decrepit, somber warrior of old, restless until he could pass on what he knew in a meaningful way. Kin of a Hero, that spirit who shared a wolf's form, who taught us important lessons. One I remember best, simple as it is, it is still true; -'A sword wields no strength unless the hand that holds it has courage'.
There is plenty of evidence suggesting that the Hero's Shade is the ancestor of the Hero of Twilight. In English, it does feel like a stretch because the evidence most people mention is just that he calls Link "son", but that's a common thing for older generations to do to newer generations even without a blood relation. But in the original Japanese, he more directly suggests that the Hero of Twilight has a blood connection to him and states the techniques are only to be taught to his bloodline. That being said, while there is evidence of ancestry between the Hero of Twilight and the Hero's Shade... There is no evidence of ancestry between the Hero of Twilight and the Hero of Time, or between the Hero's Shade and the Hero of Time.
I'm 6 minutes in and you're talking about how his equipment isn't the same as the hero's equipment in OoT. Link grew up not being the hero of time. he joined the Hyrule army, learnt new techniques, got new equipment. he definitely wouldn't have the same scabbard because he technically never pulled the master sword out since Zelda sent him back in time prior to opening the Door of Time.
First I would just suggest you watch the video fully before leaving this comment, we touch on more of these things later in the video. But, I would like to ask, where in the games does it state that Link joined the army after Majora’s Mask, learned new techniques, gained new equipment, etc. Aside from this I ask you to watch the video in full.
@@ratedn the joining the Hyrule army comment was just a fill in the blank kind of thing since Zelda uses a storytelling where you can speculate. like maybe he became a recluse and designed his own armor and everything, and lost his eye somehow, maybe another Hyrulian Civil War where he fought in favour of the Kokiri.
@@ThizbeSylvan Some Zeldatubers like Commonwealth Realm has suggested that after Link revealed Ganondorf's treachery to the king of Hyrule a war erupted between the Gerudo and Hyrule which might have lasted many years before it actually ended. Given the fact that the Sacred Grove has been _confirmed_ to be the old Hyrule Market Town from Ocarina of Time this leads credence to the possibility that the kingdom sustained a major conflict following Link's return from the Adult Timeline which lead to the destruction of the old Market Town.
@@Wighen18 Same Temple of Time right next to a Town Square eerily similar to the one in Ocarina of Time with the same circular fountain where Malon and other NPCs could be found standing next to. It's clearly the same Market Town following a catastrophe (heavily implied to have been a war) left it in ruins leading to it's currently ruined state.
The Hyrule Historia part of kinda shaky. Those are CONCEPT ARTs. We don't know the state of the game when those pieces of art were made. They all could have been at different points are made at a single certain point. We don't really know the context behind those pieces of art, so it's kinda not valuable to use it to help or hurt any theory of any sort. So saying that samurai art "hurts the theory of OoT Link being the hero's shade" is kinda dubious at best. We know that, at one point in BotW's development, they considered Hyrule to be more closely related to our time than medieval fantasy that's commonly used. But they don't use that idea really for the final game. A LOT OF ideas are throw out and discarded during a creative endeavor. Good video though. You put in a lot of work, clearly.
ALSO the point about the master sword and the triforce symbol is true, TP Link IS the hero and those are the signs but that doesn't mean he's READY to fully preform his tasks as such. OoT Link was able to pull the master sword but his body wasn't ready to wield it, which is directly stated in Ocarina of Time. That's the whole journey of the game is to get the Link's the experience and tools to defeat the evil. Otherwise, once you'd get to the Master Sword, you should just be able to go slay evil ASAP, but that's never the case in these games. Master Sword is always a PIECE of the puzzle, never the final nail in the coffin of evil. Also, the point about Link living with Cremia and Romani is an interesting one. I can see it happening but I don't agree with the point that Romani's dialog implies "consent" from Link. Ruto also does something similar with that Link when she gives him the Zora Sapphire. No one really assumes that Link and Ruto are married, do they? Romani and Ruto are kids and some things you should just disregard from kids because they're just being silly. Also, the dialog of Cremia to Link about "adulthood" is getting into fanfiction territory, lol. She just saying that he did a very brave and dangerous thing by helping hero out against the bandits, something WAY BEYOND his years (and that's technically right with all the time travel, lol). That doesn't really feel like "hey, you can come live with us now!" Also, once again, we don't know where OoT Link went to after Majora's Mask for certain. He could have just settled for a different farm life elsewhere from Termina and Hyrule. We see Link leaving Termina after Majora's Mask, that doesn't mean he went back to hyrule or even returned to Termina, we just know he left.
heck those concept arts for TP have alternate outfits for TP Link and him at different ages, different hairsyles and one that makes him look like a K-pop idol.
16:25 on the Song of Healing, i kinda got the opposite out of that quote. even if the song works on Link and he could have played it for himself, i feel like the Hero's Shade answers the question of why he wouldn't do that, if he actually is the Hero of Time: the Shade is saying that his final regret is not being able to pass down what he knows. to me, after his experience in Ocarina and learning the importance of sacrifice for the good of the future, the Hero of Time seems like the kind of person who would choose to make a sacrifice like this. he seems like he would rather endure an eternity of being a tortured spirit until the right person comes along to pass his knowledge down to, rather than take what he might consider an "easy way out". he knows that his skill and knowledge would be valuable for the greater good, and would be more important to him than finding his own peace quicker and just playing the song. so he'd rather wait until the right person is able to find him before he is able to move on. and going off of that even further, maybe he felt like deep down, even the Song of Healing couldn't ease that one regret of not passing down what he's learned to protect the future when he's gone. [[either way this is a great video and you make some really compelling points i'd never considered before! :) ]]
Another fantastic banger. Though I personally do believe that the shade is the hero of time. Or if not, I think it would be his son possibly. I love how much effort you put into challenging the status quo, really impressive
What's interesting is that while there is no evidence proving a connection between the Hero's Shade and the Hero of Time, neither proving they are the same person nor even just the same lineage, it is all but directly stated (at least in the Japanese version) that the Hero's Shade is the ancestor of the Hero of Twilight. Everyone links the two theories together, but they're unrelated. One has no actual evidence and is pure speculation, while the other has actual evidence just looking at the in-game dialog.
Subscribed. Not because of Fi's interruption, but because of the responce you gave to her: "We will gain subscribers if our content is high enough quality". ...and damn straight, it was.
An interesting analysis. It's always fascinating when long held beliefs are put into question. As far as who Ocarina of Time Link coupling with anyone in Termina, the end of Majora's Mask shows him back in the forest where he started; out side of Termina. Though, this is only a problem if you believe that Termina is only illusory (Link is dead, creation of the mask, or some of the other theories I've herd), making it impossible for them to back togeather. I, on the other hand, think Termina is a real place (in the Zelda universe), so I don't have a problem with Link returning to Termina some time after the screen goes dark.
Thank you! We try to bring to light the more obscure lore and theories in the community, give a voice to those who aren’t really heard. And absolutely agree, Termina is a real place within the universe of Zelda that Link and others could very well visit anytime
Took me 9 months to find this... The Hero's Shade isn't the Hero of Time but one that appeared between the Hero of Time and the Hero of Twilight after Ganondorf's banishment and before the Hero of Twilight's birth. He knew the King and Queen Zora, Ralis' not Ruto's parents, as they made the Zora armor as a gift for him safeguarded in the late King's tomb. He is associated with more than just being an ancient Hero, he is also the last Messenger of the Sky. Only a Hero could move the Dominion Rod to the secret part of Temple of Time since it necessitates being able to wield the Master Sword to open the secret pathway. That last messenger of the Sky is connected to the Snowpeak Ruins through paintings depicting various locations such as the Sacred Grove, Hyrule Castle, Ordon Village and portraits of Zora Royalty as well as a strange old man. To access the City in the Sky you have to be the Messenger of the Sky and only the Hero could have hidden the Dominion Rod where it is found. Thus it is heavily suggested the last Messenger of the Sky was a Hero. The Dominion Rod is one of the keys that grant access to the city the other ones being the Sky Cannon and the grappling hook to operate it safeguarded by Zoras who knew the Hero. The Gorons that guarded the Hero's Bow are not exactly guarding the sky cannon but it is hidden within their victinity in Kakariko's shrine. The previous Hero befriended the light spirits and gave Faron his tunic. The Hero's Shade expected the Hero of Twilight and him having the ability to turn into a wolf as he could probably do it at will through the Triforce of Courage' powers. Something our Link isn't able to and has to rely on curses to trigger it. Suggesting he was very experienced beyond his Hero duty, he had decades of experience in swordmanship, he was probably *quite old* when he died.... now remember the portrait in Snowpeak ruins of an old man. Snowpeak ruins filled with Ordon specialities like pumpkin ans goat cheese indicating the resident of that manor, a hylian, had a great liking for this provencal place beyond Hyrule proper. Link the Hero of Twilight is the only pointed eared hylian in that village meaning he came to live here. His past is never explored but the fact he has very little knowledge of Hyrule beyond Ordon would suggest he came here as a young child from *somewhere else* I suggest might be Snowpeak Ruins before it was abandoned. How long ago the knight of the golden wolf died, how long ago he as the ancient Hero destroyed the evil that threatened the kingdom after Ganondorf's banishment(Evil I suspect might be what Stallord used to be with flesh. Some kind of demonic evil Dragon.) Is unclear, it could be a hundred years maybe more... characters like Imparz might give us a clue, she was assigned a duty connected to the Messenger of the Sky but never met him in her 80+ years of life only knew what it was about through her fallen clan's legends. That time was when Old Kakoriko wasn't deserted and thus populated with undercover Sheikah thus before the event that wiped them out mentioned by the elder goron. It is implied old Kakariko was established by Impa of Ocarina of Time. This event has to be post-Ganondorf's banishment and connected to the ancient Hero and the evil he faced. Link was probanly sent to Ordon to protect the triforce of Courage his lineage had inherited. Whatever happened at Snowpeak might have compromised its safety. So, the Hero of Time had his lineage pass down the Triforce of Courage after Ganon's banishment and the loss of the Triforce of Power. His lineage birthed a new Hero, the ancient Hero that took the Master Sword and defeated a great evil likely Stallord in the flesh and creatures imprisoned in the temple that serves as his tomb such as the demonic Death Sword. This Evil destroyed most the Sheikah during this conflict, and many soldiers as seen during Stallord's bossfight. The destruction of the Temple of Time and the disappearance of the Kokiri might have been linked to this event as well. The Hero victorious leaves his tunic and bow behind to the Gorons and Faron and retires as a Hero becoming the Knight of the Golden Wolf a master swordsman fulfilling the duty of the Messenger of the Sky before the ties were servered with the City in the Sky. He lived at the Snowpeak Mansion likely guarding the Triforce from whatever evil seeks it, he sees death coming to him and asks the remaining Sheikah to make the Howling Stones in order to instruct the future Hero his advanced swordsmaship. The Zora King being a close friend of his made the Zora Tunic but couldn't pass it to him before his death leaving it in his tomb. The Hero had the Dominion Rod returned to the Temple of Time and the clawshot given to the Zora that safeguarded it in the Lakebed Temple. He probably is the one responsible for the secret castle key in the castle graveyard that opens the treasure room since the Dominion Rod is needed to complete its trial. He probably has a connection to the Great Fairy's trial cave too. It was certainly prophetized Evil, in the form of Ganondorf, would return and threaten Hyrule. All of his late actions served to assist the next Hero in his quest.
Very good video. I agree that with most of the video, except I still think the Hero's Shade is the Hero of Time. The reason I believe he's the Hero of Time is because he does the little feet movement thing. He's the only character in the game that does it and it the same movement that the Hero of Time does. It way to specific to be a coincidence. Here's what I think happened. Based on the concept art, I think the Hero's Shade was not intended to be the Hero of Time at first. During the early concept period for Twilight Princess, they probable hadn't really considered when it would take place. Then, after deciding it was a sequel to Ocarina of Time, they thought it would be cool to make the Hero's Shade the Hero of Time. When it comes to Malon vs Romani, I think both. He's the Hero of Two Timing, and that's how he died.
My mind is pleasantly blown! I always had issues with the Hero's Shade being the Hero of Time, but every point I raised was quickly shot down by people of greater influence and allegedly "more knowledge" on the subject, which always meant deferring to Hyrule Historia, a book I have never considered authoritative due to many flaws, inconsistencies, and downright false statements. I never investigated the Hero's Shade matter further, however, so seeing just how much evidence there was to debunk the widely-accepted speculation is fascinating! Another point I'd like to add is that the Hero's Shade is not the first occurrence of a past hero teaching Link. If I remember correctly, it was in The Minish Cap that a past hero known as Swiftblade taught skills to Link; of course, The Minish Cap was developed by Capcom rather than by Nintendo, so it may not be as weighty or authoritative, but it demonstrates that the Hero's Shade is not the first Zelda character of his kind.
¿Is there any evidence that proves Swiftblade to be a past Link? Otherwise there's no reason to suggest as much aside from baseless especulation with no basis found in the game itself. Wathever the case i'm pretty certain that Swiftblade is NOT a past Link as the series's Lore is very explicit in that every Hero born across the timeline has at least a few hundred years of separation from eachother without any chance of meeting another incarnation very much like Zelda and Ganondorf.
@@javiervasquez625 I'm actually using Swiftblade not being a Link as further credence that characters like him (such as the Hero's Shade) don't have to be Links.
@@BirdieSenpai Okay but how does that explain that the Hero Shade confirmed to be a past hero who referenced he once wore the proud green tunic Twilight Princess Link wears? His quote.
@@javiervasquez625 "every hero has a few centuries of separation" Nope, Spirit Tracks Link meets a survivor of tetras pirate crew whos now an old geezer more than 70 years couldn't have passed
How have I not seen this channel before? I agree with all of it. I never cared for Hyrule Historia, flat out refused to buy it when the clerk tried to sell it to me (on release). I only accept evidence directly from the games. I never really accepted this widely accepted theory. The only time I considered the shade as a possibility to be the hero of time was because of his red eye which I thought could be an eye which was trained to see the truth but it was never enough to fully convince me. Link staying with Romani instead of Malon makes sense. I also accept that Epona was killed by Skull Kid in MM so Link ended up with the Epona from MM. In fact many widely accepted claims such as the Official Time Line I flat out refuse to take seriously despite their prominence and acceptance by the authors and the community.
The main three details in Japanese Twilight Princess that are muddled or lost in English that are particularly damning are that he is a prior Hero of the Knights' bloodline, he wielded the Master Sword himself per his own words, and he explicitly calls TP Link his descendant. The Master Sword part in particular means he has to at least be *a* Link who existed prior to TP, and certain details rule out SS and Minish Cap as possibilities.
I like the video and you being up great points, but I really do think the Hero’s shade is intentionally meant to be one and the same with the Hero of Time. There’s so much of his life that we don’t know about after Majora’s mask, and I’d love a third hero of time game to finally explain everything. I don’t think it’s that crazy to say that we’ll see the hero of time again, ocarina and majora will eventually be remade once more so maybe they could make a part 3
Keep in mind that this video, and the denial of the theory itself, focuses more on the lack of evidence supporting the connection. There is no real evidence supporting the notion that the Hero's Shade is the Hero of Time. However, at the same time, there is no evidence stating the Hero's Shade cannot be the Hero of Time. That's not the point of the video. The point is just that we do not know. It is speculation who the Hero's Shade is, with no evidence either way. As someone that's never believed the theory, I am more than willing to admit that it is possible. I just don't like people talking about it like it's a proven fact. It isn't. It's speculation, a theory at best. There's no evidence that it's not possible, so don't take this or anything similar as people saying it's impossible or incorrect, believe it all you want. Just don't be like those that are on the other side, treating it like canon or denying the possibility of it being wrong or telling people they're wrong for not believing it.
On height: The Hero of Time was placed in a magical sleep for seven years so his body could age up (from *10* years old, mind) to be _able_ to wield the master sword, but for one thing, 17 is *not* when boys stop growing, and for another, the age-up was the *bare minimum.* If left to grow naturally, there's no indication Link couldn't have reached the height of the Hero's Shade by the age of 25. On armor: The Magic Armor is a *dull grey steel* without rupees, and when powered up it is _gold,_ not _bronze._ Also, the assertion that armor style differences are a point of contention is idiotic. As if styles of armor didn't change as technology and armorsmithing techniques improved. Don't be ridiculous. Look up Churburg armor (circa 12th/13th century) and compare it to Gothic or Milianese armor (both from the 15th century). I find the placement of the handed-ness here to be strange, but that said, I have seen none of those gold-armored horned soldiers wielding a sword, either; it's not much of a factor without other evidence. On the scabbard: I hadn't seen this point of reference before, actually. I find it interesting that the scabbards are so similar. However, on the positioning of the scabbard at his hip, as you mentioned, the guy is huge. What makes you think he didn't just change habits? Most men weren't short enough to even warrant continuing to wear the blade that high (among other disadvantages). For another thing, it's easier to mount a sword on the hips of an armor than it is over the back/shoulder, especially with pauldrons like that. On the Hero's Bow: The Hero's Shade does not appear in any way related to the Hero's Bow at all; Reusing assets in a video game is a common shortcut used to save time; This point of yours adds *nothing* and is only there to waste time grasping at straws. The Hero's Bow itself does not reference anything other than "a hero," and leaves no clues as to that hero's identity, so attributing it to the Hero of Time merely because he _may_ be featured in a post-mortem cameo or seven is a stretch at best; as you yourself say, there are *other* heroes. Moving on. On Stalfos: I've heard that theory. I don't ascribe to it, because the shade is clearly _dead,_ and not a monster, as you rightly point out. I have no contention with you here, but it is no point for or against the theory, it's just an incorrect assumption by some fans. On the Howling Stones: While they resemble the Gossip Stones, there is no evidence of any relation in the purpose of their creations. The howling stones also howl a few tunes from Wind Waker and Majora's Mask. There is no evidence that the songs from Wind Waker could not have been composed anyway, so there would have been no real reason for Link not to learn them, if he wanted. But your point was something along the lines of connecting the Howling Stones to the Gossip Stones due to the Sheikah creating them? I fail to follow the logic in assuming your assertion that they were not made by Impa of OoT is proof against the Hero of Time being the Hero's Shade. It seems like a barely-tangential point that is more a neat bit of trivia than anything else, if that. Much like your "Hero's Bow" evidence, it adds *nothing.* Moving on. (Continued in the first reply)
On the Howling Songs: Again you add nothing, though you speak on a couple variations on the same theory regarding the songs the Hero of Time learns within the games he stars in, and assert that the Sheikah's population and howling stones have an important association that can prove or disprove the Hero of Time is or is not the Hero's Shade, which is an assumption on your part that remains unproven. Moving on. On the Song of Healing: Your understanding of the Song of Healing is lacking, I see. The Song works only when the player (musician? singer?) 1. is able to interact with the regretful spirit in the first place (can't see the dead, how are you gonna know there's a regretful spirit around in the first place?), 2. is able to accept the burden of the regrets of the spirit so it can "live through" the person as a literal mask, (this is why the Hero wouldn't have been able to heal himself of his regrets) and 3. knows of the power of the song on its own. The Hero of Twilight learns none of the lore of these songs he howls, nor of their powers. Additionally, the Song of Healing might require a magical instrument in order to work in the first place; remember, the Hero of Time learned the song when he was carrying the Ocarina of Time, a magic instrument seemingly made of time crystals carved painstakingly in the shape of an instrument. As a final point on this, the Hero of Twilight is already healing the Hero's Shade through learning his techniques, so the Song of Healing wouldn't have worked in the first place. On the "Wolf Connection" point: I have two rebuttals for this. First, if a person is excellent at fighting, one of the expressions used to convey that is that they fight "like a beast" or "with beastial ferocity." It doesn't _literally_ hint at a beastial connection, because it doesn't have to. Second, this feels like a nitpick on your end to me. To add on, the Hero of Time and the Hero of Twilight are _not_ the same person. Demise's curse specifies "those with the blood of the goddess and the spirit of the hero" not "When you two specifically live again, so, too, shall an incarnation of my hate". My personal take on it is that the Hero of Time is contacting the Hero of Twilight in a form the Hero of Twilight is able to connect with; he can turn into a wolf, too. On the Hidden Skills: This point relies _far too much_ upon the assumption that the Hero of Time did not learn anything new in his life after Majora's Mask, nor find way to improve upon the techniques he already knew. This assumption is idiotic in nature. For another, more mechanical reason, Twilight Princess does not have a Magic Meter. Adding an additional mechanic for an optional technique (which is also quite literally the ultimate technique in the questline) to the game would be far too great a hassle for the developers when there was no need to include it in the first place. Therefore, they didn't bother to add one in. Of the two ways to use it, one of those ways _does_ resemble the classical Magic Spin from Ocarina of Time. On the Hero's Recognition: Given the language used, and how early the Hero's Shade first appears, the Shade _does_ recognize the markings and the tunic, but the Hero of Twilight does not yet possess the Master Sword, nor has he conquered his first major trial. The "No True Scotsman" fallacy you're pointing out the Hero's Shade is using falls kinda flat when you understand that he _isn't_ using the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. He's calling Link pathetic _for a Triforce-chosen hero,_ not saying that he _isn't_ one. This point is moot. Moving on. On the Hero's Shade in Hyrule Historia: Do you assume the final details of any game were the planned to be that way from the game's inception? The concept art of the Hero's Shade is an indication of the different stages of development the Shade went through as the game was refined through its creation. The creation process of any piece of art is rarely linear, and video games are hardly an exception. Link had something like 6 different designs before his age was finalized for Twilight Princess, and that was only what made the cut for the book! That point is rather ridiculous, as is using the book's neutral stance that neither confirms _nor denies_ the theory as evidence for it being untrue. Moving on. On the Shade Not Remembered: 1. You make a statement here that reveals your bias: You assume that the core of the theory comes from Hyrule Historia, when the theory has been around since the release of Twilight Princess, YEARS before the release of HH. The core of the theory is the Hero's Shade's _dialogue choices._ His calling out of Link's weakness before the first trial, his teaching of techniques that "does not leave _our bloodline."_ His final words of, "Go, and do not falter, _My Child."_ Furthermore, there is no indication at what point Link arrived back in the Child timeline, but we do glimpse the three stones in their altar in the Temple of Time. Additionally, pulling from the quote you yourself used, "a legend *held dearly* by the royal family..." Now, those words, "held dearly" can mean different things, but among them is "guarded closely". In essence, he would have been regarded well by the upper class, but the lower class would not know why, and it is the lower class that he would have had to deal with more; he would be seen more as an errand boy for his betters than a hero, considering he skipped out on the implied Hyrule-Gerudo War that saw the power of the Gerudo broken and Ganondorf captured and tried in the Arbiter's Grounds. On Power Levels: This is a very _very_ stupid point of contention. Any idiot would have the braincells to put together that the world of Hyrule does not operate on Dragon Ball rules. I would sooner cite _Fate_ than _Power Levels._ On the Hero of Time's future: This section has nothing to do with the argument, but I find the idea of Termina and Hyrule existing on the same plane rather preposterous. So you can consider me Team Malon, _or_ Team Zelda, though I personally find the child timeline Link x Zelda ship farfetched at best. Additionally, the Hyrule of Twilight Princess has moved from the Hyrule of Ocarina of Time. If we assume Death Mountain and the Temple of Time are constants, then Ordon Village is about where Lon-Lon Ranch was, and wouldn't you know it, it's *also* a ranch. It also puts the Arbiter's Grounds far to the north in the Gerudo Desert of Ocarina of Time, and puts Hyrule Castle in an inaccessible area of the map, as well as the Kokiri Forest. Additionally, the lettering system changed between games. In conclusion: I find none of your arguments strong enough to disprove the theory, and a large percentage of them to be nitpicks or unrelated to the claims. Neat video, though. As you can see, I cared enough to write this enormous word-wall. Have a great one!
@@DonutSwordsman It's not "cope" as you call it, I am presenting counter-arguments in the order they were presented in the video. I was very thorough, needing to pause after each section to record my thoughts, then rewriting them as needed and adding points where I had missed some, as well as fixing minor grammatical errors. The process took over an hour. Not that I didn't enjoy it, as The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess is my favorite Legend of Zelda game.
@@andyknightwarden9746 Honestly made a lot of real good points and nailed many of the issues I had with this video. I also want to add onto the bow thing two points that help prove the bow in Twilight Princess to be the Hero of Time's. Link could have had it upgraded later in his life, and those upgrades would realistically have made it look different from how it appears in MM. Or the latter, which is that it could just simply be a whole different bow. It doesn't _have_ to be the same bow. It's called the Hero's Bow because it was wielded by the hero.
It feels disingenuous to say you wont use the historia to support the shade being the hero of time, yet you use it argue your point against it. If youre using concept art from it to support your argument, then it should also be included how TP follows the child timeline where OoT link wouldnt have the mastersword in the first place. That one detail discredits most of what youre saying. The OoT link from the child timeline never wouldve pulled the master sword. He never wouldve gone on the hero of times journey as there was no reason to. The journey this link went on was in termina, not hyrule. I think its also worth noting as part of the "child link didnt pull the ms" idea that the shades sword looks strikingly like a longer kokiri sword, the only sword this link had when he left hyrule. I dont think its farfetched to say he couldve had the blade modified as he got older as a way to retain the last piece of home. You mention MM but never how it could relate to any of the prior sections. I feel like you completely misunderstood the whole Hero's Recognition part. Youre reading way too literally into it. The shade is saying link hasnt grown and matured into the hero he needs to be yet, not that he doesnt have the material requirements. The shade even says "You are already endowed with the strength required of the hero.". This sounds like hes directly referencing the triforce of courage. Id also like to point out that in the scenes where you showed the shade speaking, link didnt have the master sword yet. I cant remember, but its possible his dialogue changes after you get the MS. "You must use your courage to seek power...and find it you must. Only then will you become the hero for whom this world despairs.". This sounds like hes telling link (who hasnt pulled the master sword yet) to use the power of the triforce to obtain the sword because without it, he cant defeat ganon. "the hero for whom this world despairs". Interesting video for sure, regardless.
I have alwase se this character as the same as the Blade brothers in Minish cap, not THE hero but very high skilled warriors that have the been heroic in some sense. I have another "theorie" that might be ridiculous, the shade was THE hero (reincarnation after the hero of time) but instead of ganondorf he fought another evil force (Vaati ?) and instead of the master sword he used the four sword to vanquish it.
Hyrule Historia the book itself killed the Hero of Time because they believe he does not deserve to be remembered as a hero, which is why they also made up the Downfall Timeline to cover up the murder.
Pretty sure that wasn't the Historia's fault (the creation of the Downfall Timeline i mean) but Aonuma and company who couldn't find a justification aside from them wanting it so after making the mistake of ending the story of Ocarina of Time the way it ultimately did kickstarting 2 opposite timelines which had nothing to do with the all the pre Ocarina games released prior.
@javiervasquez625 Here's my personal theory. When Link first played the Song of Time in Majora's Mask, he didn't reset the three days but was sent back in time and "overwritten" his counterpart, creating a new timeline. Meanwhile, Link and Tatl disappeared, and Majora destroyed Termina. Because Link disappeared, and the laws of the Triforce state that, A: When someone leaves Hyrule the Triforce will be scattered: said by the King of Red Lions in the Wind Waker after Zelda sent Link back to the Child Timeline. And B: The Triforce must exist in all timelines as a whole, explaining how Ganon, Zelda and Link had the Triforce in OOT and later TP their descendants in the later, then you can make the assumption that there is the Triforce of Power in Ganon, the Triforce of Wisdom in Zelda, and the Triforce of Courage somewhere in Hyrule for anyone to find. Ganondorf would know and invade Hyrule, like the Sages in TP said. (Or at least in the ENG version they did, the original JAP versionmight said different.) And as we know, the Triforce and the Sacred Realm, were a Secret to all those but the Royal Family, the Guardian Spirits like the Deku Tree, and later Ganondorf. Now, imagine if the Triforce of Courage was found by someone... imagine if Ganondorf and Zelda awakened their pieces of the Triforce. Imagine if a kingdom, united recently after a bloody Civil War, now knew that ultimate power was out there for the taking. All hell would break loose. Between Ganondorf looking for it with the already obtained Triforce of Power, the Princess looking to keep it safe from Ganon with the Triforce of Wisdom, and the races unable to pick a side because now it's a race to find the Triforce of Courage before Ganondorf takes over, not only that but there are those who would want it for themselves, so it might as well be another war. The Imprisoning Wars to be exact. After that, the Gorons would be wiped out, standing with the Royal Family and against Ganondorf. The Kokiri would be wiped out as well since it was a "Kokiri" that exposed Ganondorf in the first place, and with the Deku Tree still dead, they would be picked off as well. The Zora would try to fight but stand no chance, possibly be frozen if this Ganondorf was like Twilight Princess and OOT. And the only Sheikah left was Impa. This explains why only Hylians and Zora are seen in the downfall timeline of ALTTP and the first 2 Zelda Games. Ganondorf would eventually take the Triforce foe himself, but due to Zelda's plans, which would be the same as OOT, to seal him in the Sacred Realm, like she did in OOT, Ganondorf would be sealed away, by several new Hylian Sages to do so. (It is possible that in order to defeat him, the Sages created a new Master Sword and the Silver Arrows based upon the original Master Sword, which could explain not only the retcon of Zelda and Link in Skyward Sword forging it from the Goddess Sword but also explain the fake Master Swords in the Lost Woods, placed there to hinder theivesfrom finding the new one they made but also because they were the leftover or flawed attempts to remake it. This is pure theory and just me going into head cannon.) Ganondorf would be sealed, and his army would be wiped out, but surprisingly, not by Hyrule. I recall something mentioning that Ganondorf killed his followers after obtaining the Triforce, and that would make sense since he was already betrayed once. By Nabooru, who could've been warned by Link, captured by Twinrova, or betrayed Ganon to go into hiding or even join Zelda and Hyrule against Ganondorf To prevent another betrayal, Ganondorf, now Ganon, killed off the Gerudo, his own followers, and turned them into monsters, succumbed to Demise's influence in full. This explaining why no Gerudo exist in the Fallen Timeline either, except Twinrova, the only Gerudo spared due to them being Ganondorf's "Surogate Mothers" Ganondorf would be sealed, and people, still wanting to take the Triforce for their own, would probably follow or find ways into the Sacred Realm, becoming monsters themselves. To prevent the outpouring monsters, the Sages would further seal up the Sacred Realm, where their descendants would maintain the seal, one of them being Zelda, or a descendant of hers, which overtime would result in the end of the Imprisoning Wars and an era of rebuilding. The Master Sword would be placed in the Temple of Time or Lost Woods, guarded by the Spiritual Stones, now turned into Pendants. The kingdom would slowly recover but remained destroyed as a result. The Zora would unfreeze but maintain a distrust to Hylians after the war, and the kingdom would remain mostly Hylian and humans. The Gorons, Gerudo, and Kokiri are now more or less extinct. Many years later, the events of ALTTP occur, and so on and so forth and then some. Personally, this makes a lot more sense and more meaningful to the Zelda Series than "Link died, Ganon won." But that's just my head-cannon on the downfall timeline.
My headcanon is that the “Downfall Timeline” could be the future of either the adult or child timeline. The “Seven Wise Men” could be a mistelling of the sages - centuries later, as history becomes legend, details get changed and we’ll never know without some legendary anthropology work.
Honestly, I'm just not a fan of the Hero's Shade being the Hero of Time on a conceptual level. It goes against the themes of Majora's Mask. Link commits himself to help the people of Termina and soothe their problems even though it's not his world and they will forget that it ever happened in the next time loop. He does what he does because he's a good person, not because of any desire for recognition. So it would go against that message of he's suddenly upset that his heroic deeds were never acknowledged.
Ocarina & Majora & Twilight are Zelda games I'll always have fond memories of. And yeah I'm also guilty of the biased believe that the Hero's Shade is the Hero of Time. But this video certainly gives me food for thought.
I also never understood the Theory of Hero's Shade equals Hero of Time. But would like to point out that the scabbard's placement on the Hero's Shade could just be there due to him being able to place it there, while the Shorter Link could only place it on his back to prevent it from being dragged or damaged.
The "theory" stems from several incriminating pieces of evidence which suggest as much from the many songs specifically found in the 2 Hero of Time games, the Shade's mention of the Hero's clothes's "green" as if he once _wore_ them in the past and the appeareance of a Skullkid in the Sacred Grove making many fans theorize it's the *same* Skullkid from Majora's Mask asked by the Hero of Time to forever watch over the Master Sword until a worthy successor/descendant would come along in need of it. The fact that neither Aonuma or anyone at Nintendo has ever outright _denied_ the possibility of the Shade been the Hero of Time gives enough reason to fans to deduce that he's indeed the Link from Ocarina of Time after failing to pass on his teachings to his own descendants forcing him to linger still in the realm of the living as a wandering soul.
The Zelda team made a half hearted attempt to connect the N64 and GameCube era games canonically, but it's clear they just don't care about details like this. So that's almost certainly the IRL reason behind these discrepancies
Very fun video, great in depth research. Subscribed! Also, I like to believe Talon extended Link a stay on his farm too. Similarities between the realms and such. So yea, team Malon 😊
Honestly I don’t think it makes a difference whether he is or isn’t the Shade (the hero of time that is) but I think it’s a rare case of Nintendo actually doing something dark for once. The Hero of Time in the child timeline is like the dark tragic version of his adult timeline counterpart. In the adult timeline he’s mentioned and seen multiple times, but in the child timeline he is forgotten It humanizes Link, he could save everyone else but not himself. He probably lived a normal life, but when he died his unfulfilled spirit lingered on. I mean this is the timeline where his entire journey we played through never happened. The only event that actually occurred was the Deku Tree Dungeon. His life was taken from him, Zelda only slightly recognizes him on a spiritual level, he gets sent off, saves a world that also won’t remember him, then comes back to a Hyrule who definitely does not remember him. He probably settles down with Malon, has a kid and dies. But that deep seated feeling of pure regret just won’t leave. I mean he remembers everything that happened in Ocarina of time but to the world around him it just never happened. Did it occur to anyone that during the celebration scene at the end of OoT Link is no longer existent in that timeline? He was removed. I don’t know, to me he is the shade because it’s narratively pleasing to me. Also the fact that Hyrule Historia even mentioned it off hand is a cheeky way of confirming it. Also Nintendo aren’t obsessed with lore most discrepancies can be looked past with the simple real life fact that Nintendo was trying to connect twilight princess to the N64 games because fans wanted that at the time and they got it. I personally think it’s way more of a stretch to believe all those songs were passed down to a random hero who doesn’t really have any personal attachment with. Either way interesting video, a bit weak with some of the points but great editing and com overall.
You raise extremely good arguments for the Hero's Shade not being Link. Honestly I believed in it because thematically it sounded awesome, like passing the torch on to the new hero. Points other youtubers made in favor of Link being the Hero's Shade sounded great... until you debunked them, now looking at it- I can see that you are correct. The Hero's Shade was never meant to be Link. I'm curious as to who it may be then?
As for the wolf transformation. Twilight Link would have never even known that he could transform into a wolf without being in direct contact with the Twilight. It is said that the transformation is supposed to protect the hero from darkness. OOT Link simply never had to transform into Wolf form due to the fact that he never had contact with Twilight energy. And as for why he knows, well, other people know too, before even Link knew it. Perhaps the knowledge could have already existed and was passed down to him. Or of course, The Hero's Shade could have been watching over Link, which is more likely.
While I like the idea of Hero's Spirit being OoT Link, this video has enough points against the theory (it has some really bad points like "we don't saw Link in OoT wearing/doing this" when Hero's Spirit is clearly someone who lived a long life and kept learning things or using discarded concept arts as proof). And yes, Hyrule Historia is an official licenced 25th anniversary book, but it wasn't written by Nintendo and the book itself says it's the book writters interpretations based on stuff they experienced in the games + bits the devs shared, they didn't even consulted the game's writters.
Yeah, the visual points can definitely be seen as less strong than the other points. We mostly mean that in a way of, if the developers wanted it to be the Hero of Time, they would have made it pretty obvious. Of course, if potentially decades of the Hero of Times life played out after OOT/MM, it is highly likely that he would wear new clothes, learn new sword skills, etc. But the point is, it's a piece of media, so if the Shade was meant to be the HoT, he would be doing some iconic Hero of Time moves if they wanted us to know it's him. Appreciate the comment! And yes, you are absolutely right about Historia.
Youre thinking of Hyrule Encyclopedia that has that disclaimer, and interviews with Dark Horse, who published and translated the books confirmed they were in direct talks with nintendo through the process
@@v-nus7718Aonuma's disclaimer does exist in the Hyrule Historia at the back of the book. "Flipping through the pages of The History of Hyrule, you may even find a few inconsistencies."
I would like to point out when you're talking about the sheikah that you think that the Npcs don't see them often in OOT because they are practically extinct, however, I think they are doing fairly well, they have a secret village in twilight princess which is probably why they gave away the town as stated by an Npc in OOT and why they aren't seen often, since they are supposed to work in the shadows meaning they wouldn't be doing their job very well if so many of them were out in the open
My personal theory goes in function of the "perfect" continuity between games. Link leaves Hyrule as Majora starts, after it's finished, he rides Epona through the forest, which we see at the beginning of OoS/OoA. The end of a linked game between those two point to the fact that Link sails a ship to return to Hyrule. While navigating in the middle of a storm, he's struck by lightning and gets trapped by the nightmares of the Wind Fish as we see in Link's Awakening. After that game, we see that even if the wind fish is awaken, it doesn't seem too eager to save Link from dying a cruel death from drowning in the ocean. So, to me, that's how link dies. Trying to return to his land which might have been destroyed by a returning Ganon that sunk it to the bottom of the ocean. To me, Wind Waker is the game made with the continuity in mind, while TP was the product of customer demand, not Nintendo's desire to continue the story (it may have triggered a creative freedom Renaissance around the whole franchise, so, that's why the lore is upside down and had to be saved by Breath of the Wild). Never believed in the timeline, or that it was able to branch out like that, much less the idea that the shade could be our beloved Link. BTW, I'm aware that my argument is stated in Hyrule Historia, but not in the same way or assuming the same outcome.
The hidden skill talk of Shade saying that Link isn't a hero due to his lack of skill being a discrepancy is a far reach. Remember that what he said may not he supposed to be taken as literal fact. He could be darting as not being a full fledged hero because he is still growing. It could be personal bias from Time because of his regrets and even insecurities. He could have very well meant that Link is still lacking in skill, not that he isn't the true hero. It could also have been taunting, so that Link is more eager his best when fighting the Shade to prove himself.
The Hero's Shade is either some previous unknown incarnation of Link, or could very well be loosely connected to the Downfall Timeline. I'm not a Zelda lore expert by any means, but as an average Zelda fan, these are just my own guesses as to the identity of this mysterious individual. Lol.
I was watching this with an open mind but I have to say there's a debunking evidence about the sword part. The reason why he willed the replica of the master sword and not have the shame type of sheath was because in the child timeline (where twilight princess is at) Link was never said to be a hero nor willed the master sword in that timeline. So he couldn't get the sword back even after he naturally growns up into an adult so he has to work with what he can get. Of course the whole "on his hip instead of his back" thing could fall the same argument. The kingdom provides him the standard knight armor and equipment inside of the chosen hero kind because they don't know or think of him as the hero of time. (This is just my thoughts so feel free to agree or disagree, I'm just typing my thoughts about it. Not saying anything bad, just making sure we're all on the same level.)
I have had a certain notion in mind for a very long time, and it aligns with this theory.... But I have never heard anyone talk about it. I hope you'll forgive me for not detailing it here; I'd rather make my own video to present on it. Hahh just need to get off my backside and _do_ it is all.
The height difference doesn't matter at all. Stalfos are all the same tall size regardless of who they once were. Furthermore, he shouldn't go to Link's height, because most of Link's enemies are bound to be much bigger, for example, Ganondorf himself. Hero's Shade was preparing Link to fight not only against multiple foes, but also, his main antagonist. Kinda poetic that one of the skills is literally mandatory for you to finish the game. Even if he is not a Stalfos in specific, ghost monsters are known to be shaped weirdly. Just look at the poes in Arbiter's Grounds for example. His body could be warped due to his new form, or a fun theory from other fans is that he could even have absorbed some of the power within the fierce deity mask. But yeah, even if the manga accepts the Hero's Shade to be Time, this soldier could have very well been a knight who were trained by the techniques the Hero of Time passed down. I just don't get why he would call Link his child without being related to him.
I believe the heros is look at his sword hilt it's a rectangle shape gold with cubes welded to the end like as if it was once smaller but modified as if link had it reforged maybe a third time to wield it as an adult and the shield may have had glass on it but it might've shattered
The real question is why Nintendo would put out a lore book that is unreliable. And why mention a “fan theory” if there is no credence to it? Either the people involved with making the lore had little involvement with hyrule historia, or the creators never cared about the lore that much in the first place.
Nonoctoro on ZU made a good write up about Historia that relates to what you said. zeldauniverse.net/forums/index.php?thread/205339-hyrule-historia-was-already-dead-here-s-why/ In short, all of the listed writers for Historia have never worked on a Zelda game, ever. Aonuma is stated to be a supervisor or editor in the book and on Google but he is on-record with an interview with Mashable that he had little involvement, and did not edit the information within the book: mashable.com/archive/legend-of-zelda-aonuma "When we were exploring ways to make fans happy, we created the Hyrule Historia.That summarizes all the games and the story so far. I didn't edit it myself, but tons of people who worked on it were fans of the games themselves." Note: Fans of the games. Not developers. Why would Nintendo do this? Probably to appease fans who were whining for an "official" statement on the timeline for years. Aonuma is on record as well responding to questions about the accuracy of Historia/the Timeline within it, noting that it's simply the interpretation of the writers who wrote the book. I don't think any of this really reflects on the Zelda team or their treatment of the lore. The book is pretty much fan fiction and nobody worth their salt in regards to the series contributed to it. The existence of the book is probably a money-fueled decision from the business heads at Nintendo.
Oh dang! If there's anything that could cause an otherwise docile and awesome fandom (the Zelda community) to go nuts, it would be this! Haha! I digress, very well done video! I'll need to rewatch and consider your points as I personally am not convinced and still hold that Hero of Time and Hero Shade are one and the same, as there are a few things I'd push back on. You've brought up some interesting points though! Hence why I say I need to rewatch and process. Nonetheless, video quality is high!! :D
@@hintonempire1178I ultimately don't think it matters considering how similar they are in appearance, but I think it makes more sense that the hero went back to Hyrule since he's back where he was in the forest at the end of MM. It could also be a possibility that he roamed the world/forest for the rest of his life if you like darker fan theories
@@hylianro Going back to Hyrule doesn't really mean anything though. For example, if he did move to Termina, it's perfectly normal to go back to Hyrule first and tie up his loose ends and get his stuff.
Link gives as much consent to Romani in that scene as he does to marrying Ruto... This is a big stretch. Also Cremia's dialogue is suspicious as hell. That's not how adulthood works...
isnt the most likely link to be heroes shade the one who died causing the fallen timeline? even if its an alternate timeline to TPP, it makes more sense, considering its the one link who canonically dies early
I feel like a lot of this can make sense when you take into consideration the idea that it could be the Hero of Time not as he appears in Ocarina of Time, but as he later becomes when growing older naturally and as a result of his supernatural transformation. It's reasonable to conclude that after entering into the new Child Timeline to live out the childhood that was robbed from him in the Adult Timeline, he would go on to become acquainted with Zelda once again to warn her of the threat of Ganondorf so that she may in turn warn her father. After Ganondorf is dealt with, Link might have been praised as a hero for bringing Ganondorf's true intentions to light and consequentially saving the entire kingdom, and so could have been taken in by the royal family. It is then that he could have received a more formal education as well as being trained more properly to be a knight. Because Link in this timeline is not going on a divinely appointed mission to slay evil, he may not have seen any need to keep the Master Sword and could have never retrieved it to begin with, and could have settled for a replica that feels familiar enough to wield. His more formal training to be a knight of Hyrule could also explain why he doesn't holster his sword on his back, and his more formal education could explain his speech mannerisms. Being a proper knight would also explain why he wears the armor he does rather than the Hero's tunic, and he could even have gone on to obtain new gear such as the Hero's Bow. We do not know that the Hero of Time does not have connections to wolves as the Hero of Twilight does. There's no wolf plot points in Ocarina of Time or Majora's mask to tie him to wolves, but that doesn't mean nothing happened in the time after these games as he matured into an adult, and he very well may have awakened his Golden Wolf form during his time as an adult later on in his lifetime. Additionally, the Hero of Twilight's connection to wolves is directly through the Triforce of Courage, so the Hero's Shade having a similar form would point towards him also having a connection to the Triforce of Courage as well, something we have only ever known the Link's of each age to have. The most recent Link before the Hero of Twilight we know about in the Child Timeline is the Hero of Time. While we do know that other people also knew the songs from OoT, Link and Sheik are the only ones we know to know them all, and we don't have any confirmation that Sheik who is Zelda in disguise learned them all from the same person, only that he (she) learned them to pass on to Link. The fact that this was needed and was deemed so important is a strong indicator that individual people knowing all of the songs is very rare, and the additional songs the Hero of Time never learned in the games could simply have been learned by him later in life in the Child Timeline. The stones being Sheikah Stones also points towards the Hero of Time due to his connections to the Royal Family and Impa, which in turn makes him a firm ally of the Sheika clan of his own time period. It could be that at some point he awakened his Golden Wolf form somehow, and after a divine premonition that he would one day have need to pass on what he knows to another hero could have gotten the assistance of the Sheikah tribe to place the howling stones around Hyrule to be used by this hero of prophecy one day. We also do not know that the Hero of Time never used the techniques taught by the Hero's Shade to the Hero of Twilight. He states that they are long forgotten due to not leaving his (or "our" when speaking to the Hero of Twilight) bloodline, but he himself is a long forgotten specter of a hero from an age long past. It could very well be that the Hero of Time invented these techniques during his adult life later on into his life in the Child Timeline well after the events of Majora's Mask, and went on to teach them to his children, who then went on to teach them to their children, and so forth. I'd speculate that eventually in time the techniques were forgotten due to never leaving their bloodline until finally the Hero of Time was able to pass on the knowledge of them to his distant descendent to make use of during his journey when there was nobody else left to teach them to him. As for him not teaching the skills he used to defeat Ganondorf, all of those skills were either reliant on equipment unavailable to the Hero of Twilight or were already known by him. The only thing that might be an exception is the Magic Slash, but we don't know that even the Hero of Time continued to have access to magic after the events of Majora's Mask, and the slash taught to the Hero of Twilight could very well be a result of the Hero of Time's training to make up for what was lost. Additionally, I think whether he lost his life in battle or not is rather irrelevant to his identity. Whether his skills were enough to keep him alive is entirely besides the point of his identity, as he'd already have completed his divine mission as the Hero of Time by then, and could have died to something outside of his control such as an arrow through his eye or something similar during a time of war. It wouldn't mean that his newfound skill is subpar to the skill of the hero, and his own comments about the skills insist the opposite; that they are critical for the Hero of Twilight to rise to the challenge ahead of him. The matter of him being so tall isn't really all that noteworthy considering that could simply be part of the form he took after his supernatural transformation into... Whatever he is as the Hero's Shade. Ghost, Zombie, whatever. It's not that he has control over how tall he is, he just is that tall while in this form and this is the only form he can take on account of being long dead. Regarding him carrying his regrets into his existence as the Shade, remember that the Hero's Shade also knows the Song of Healing just as the Hero of Time did. It could be that the song is unable to heal the regrets of the one performing it, and so it was only by doing the thing he felt such a great need to accomplish that he was finally able to find peace. The thing in question being that he was tasked with the burden of passing on his life lessons to the next hero after him, which happens to have not been his own child as he may have expected but someone much further down the bloodline into the future. In teaching his knowledge to the Hero of Twilight, this responsibility is no longer his to bear as the torch has finally been passed from one hero to the next. The Hero's shade's comments about the Hero of Twilight needing to become the hero through his taught skills could be interpreted in another way from how they are interpreted in this video. It isn't that the shade isn't recognizing the Hero of Twilight as the true hero, it's that he's acknowledging him as the chosen one but imparting him with critical knowledge he needs to rise to the challenge at hand. Notice the present tense that is used by the shade's dialogue; he's not talking about this being knowledge needed by the hero in general, but rather that the hero of the present era needs. The threat the Hero of Twilight faces is even greater than the threat the Hero of Time once faced, and so it makes sense that a version of the Hero of Time much greater in skill than he was at the time of his original defeating of Ganondorf would be his teacher, passing down skills even greater than the ones he knew back then to handle this much more dire threat Ganondorf now represents.
It's not unreasonable to assume Link would have grown and developed after his appearances in OOT/MM-- that much is a given. However, the biggest problem is that Nintendo/Zelda team did not make an effort in-game to convey in-game that this is, in fact, the Hero of Time. You can make all sorts of personal theories and headcanon for how the Hero of Time could slot nicely into this appearance as the Shade, but ultimately, it's reaching. It's too obvious to us that Nintendo left it intentionally vague -- outside of him obviously never stating he's the Hero of Time, saying anything more concretely about his mortal life, or possessing any distinct visual traits that he is such, there's even things like the Shades scabbard omitting the triforce make that should be there, among other things that simply are too conveniently not mentioned or missing. The Hyrule Historia came many years after Twilight Princess, and while it attempts to claim the Shade as the HoT, it contradicts itself mere pages earlier, stating it as merely fan theory. We can also observe that the concept art that was included in the book never hinted at the Shade being the HoT, even providing potential designs for a samurai or female version of the Shade. To us, it's too obvious that the developers never went in with the intention of making this the HoT, and on top of that, the Historia's claim of it being so is refuted by the many contradictions within the book itself, and the developers never stating in interviews that the Shade is the HoT, nor never confirming the canonicty of Historia.
Gotcha, was just adding it as a point incase that was to be brought up. Point stands that while there are ways to attempt to connect the two characters, the ultimate proof in-game is that the developers never made the conscious effort to connect the two.
@@ratedn Just because there wasn't a conscious effort at the time doesn't make it canon either way though. Concept art also isn't canon. All we really have to work with in sorting out whether he is or isn't is the in-game evidence, and considering things such as the implication in OoT that it's rare for individuals to know all of the songs and the only other wolf transformation that appears being a direct connection to the Triforce of Courage, the in-game evidence does strongly point towards the possibility that he could be the Hero of Time as he's the only hero we know about who fits the description of being a hero who knew all the songs and had a direct connection to the Triforce of Courage, even if the developers themselves didn't realize the connection at the time. Conversely, evidence to debunk the idea that he could be the Hero of Time is largely just founded on the fact that we don't know for sure and not that he can't be, and there are explanations to make sense of many of these evidence points as outlined in my original comment. It seems to me that there's a lot of evidence that points towards him being the HoT as a real possibility even if not confirmed, and nothing that outright disproves the notion.
Concept art isn't canon to the game in its final form, but it shows that in production of the game itself, there was never a direct intention for this to be the Hero of Time. That alone should STRONGLY impact the thought of it potentially being retroactively Canon in any way. Not to mention, it's a bit silly to say that "debunking this largely relies on the fact we simply don't know." Uhh, yeah? If there's more evidence against a theory than for a theory, it is liable to be debunked. As for the songs, wolf form, etc, we laid out our theory and explanation in full within the video. It's provable with information found in the games that it's neither impossible nor improbable for a bloodline descendant of the Hero of Time to possess the traits that the Shade does, and it simply makes way more sense when you consider both the design discrepancies and the lore discrepancies. It would be an insult to the writing of the Zelda games to simply hand-wave away the fact that the Shade is multiple feet taller than the Hero of Time, doesn't possess any of the unique moves he had, doesn't mention anything about the fact he saved the world from the greatest evil of his time, and how TP Link is up against the same foe, His scabbard conveniently doesn't have the Triforce mark where it would have been on OOT Links scabbard, etc. Also, the fact that if he was the HoT, he died to what may be a blow to the head/eye from a random nobody. If you can't imagine Ganondorf dying to a nobody, then his superior, the Hero of Time, shouldn't either. And it seems implied that the Shade died some sort of tragic death in battle. The Hero of Time isn't immortal, but it would be bad writing and laughable if he died to what amounts to a random enemy, just because he was "old" or "not in his prime." This dude defeated his worlds version of Satan, while he was essentially a Child in an Adults body. Believing he is the Hero of Time seems based on personal preference rather than any concrete lore, and that's perfectly fine. Same as how we believe it isn't him. At the end of the day, it is a theory on both sides as it was never attempted to be answered by the developers. Respect for only using info from the games btw. 🫡
As for him accepting life as the hero... Also a far reach, for just because he is aware, does not mean that others are also aware by default. That's a fallacy.
I’ve been seeing people say why the shade didn’t mention Navi… but now your theory might connect some dots with that because like you said maybe it wasn’t the link we think it is. Hmmmmm Good solid theory
i will point something out. when looking up how old "adult link" is in OOT, it is stated he is 17 years old. he's not really an adult, not yet. we know he goes back in time to live out his child hood. its just a theory here but the heroes shade being a lot taller that twilight could be he actually grew to adulthood and hit another growth spurt later in life. and not that's its gospel or anything but Nintendo did say themselves that the hero's shade was the hero of time :shrug: just thought I would share that possibility here. i think major link has set up a great fan series that makes for a good lead up to him becoming that. its all fan content, but fr fr I hope no one is getting bent out of shape over either opinion
It's never actually been “confirmed” outside of the Hyrule Historia and Zelda Encyclopedia. We even touch on contradictions that the book makes in regards to the theory it proposes... So for anyone to say it's undoubtedly confirmed with no room for discussion is simply not true. The book itself can't even decide if it wants to call it a fact or not lol.
@ratedn while obviously not canon, the Twilight Princess manga is written in a way that portrays the Hero's Shade as the Hero of Time, and Nintendo never shot that down. Surely that's got to count for something.
@@mercury2157 Yes, but Akira Himekawa (the manga authors) doesn't even play the games, Nintendo only share some story summaries and character artworks and give them free reign to go wild with their own interpretations.
Wait, are Cremia and Romani real people? I've always been under the impression Majora's Mask didn't really happen. Not in a literal sense anyways. I think of it like Link's Awakening.
While this is a thorough video and you really put a lot of work in it. Others have added to contradict the contradiction of the Hero Shade being the Hero of Time. In terms of Aesthetic, Lore, the hidden skills and Historia discrepancies. For me I wanted to bring up what others haven't. Aesthetically both the Shade and Link shuffle their feet and hold their weapons in a similar stance. But I'm glad you get that the shade isn't a Stalfos. Regarding Romani and Cremia. I do believe they contributed to Link ending up with Malon. Given their interactions. Link might go through displacency. What he remembers experiencing from them will be put onto Malon on top of being a home after his adventures. Thus starting a bloodline that goes to Twilight Link. It would explain him growing up among farmers, why he has a well bred Epona from the beginning which is identical to Time Link's horse , knows her song which was a family song between a mother and daughter, and Epona's trusted being Link. Termina and whether Link can go back there or not is another hive of bees I don't feel like poking.
Is The Hero's Shade is the spirit of The Hero of Time, so is the Hero's Shade the Spirit of Ocarina of Time Link? No! Let me explain why! The fatal flaw of this theory is that there is no evidence to support this Theory. You can say that Nintendo confirmed this theory all you want, but Word of God has its limits in what its canon or not. It's important to keep in mind that just because someone wrote a character or setting, doesn't mean they decided on a correct answer to every question that could possibly be asked about that character or setting. The statement from the Creator of X-Franchise will fall flat becaus if they wanted a certain fact to be canon, they should have included it in the work to begin with. Such as the Sexuality, the Gender Identity, the Race, and the Relationships of a character should be include in their work in the first place to be confrimed be canon, and not just make a statement. Is Rainbow Dash and Applejack from My Little Pony are in a relationship and they have feelings for each others? No! because it was never show during the show, or comic, or novel. Is Rivet from Ratcher and Clank actually a lesbian? We do not know because it was never show. Can Whiterbeard and King Ghidorah destroy a planet? We do not know because it was never show. Can Frieza destroy a planet? Yes because he show three time that he can destroy a planet. Statements are the kind of sentences that are either true or false. As such it is important to actually shows evidence to back up or refute arguments. Evidence is important because it shows the person what you mean and why you are right. This is the whole argument of Show, Don't Tell! So if the Creator of X-Franchise wanted a certain fact to be canon from character or story from feasts, sexuality, relationships, or pretty much anything, they should have included it in the work to begin with. No amount of statements will convince people specially met that something it's canon unless, they included it in the work to begin with. In Other Word! Show, Don't Tell! So if Nintendo really, really wanted something to be canon like the Hero's Shade be the Spirit of the Hero of Time. They should have included it in Game Lore in the first place. This includes other theories from The hero of Twilight be the child of Malon and the Hero of Time. From Link and Zelda be in a Romantic Relationship. From the Whole Timeline. So something is 100% canon when it's included in the work in the first place. Even if Nintendo decides to remaster Twilight Princess to modify it to "fit" this theory. It would be too late. The only way they could fit it. It's to make the current Twilight Princess non-canon and make a completely new one. So, I just debunked the The Hero's Shade is the spirit of The Hero of Time with Logic.
I have never understood why everyone thinks he’s the Hero of Time. I haven’t seen any actual solid evidence that it may be. Please correct me if I’m showing incompetence, and show me a reliable source.
I think model reuse is a weak argument. Devs are clearly lazy in a couple of those instances. I wish they were as detailed as a souls game, but something like the phantom hourglass bow is clearly lazyness
This is... Almost everything I wanted for a Zelda theory. I *hate* the theory that the Hero's Shade is OoT Link. I feel the way it's treated shows so many issues with the Zelda theorist community. Why? Because I have never, *ever* heard a proper explanation for evidence on the theory. It's always either a couple of small, circumstantial bits like "oh, he's left handed and the songs are mostly ones he knew", circular logic like the lack of a tunic being evidence because his tunic went to TP Link, or its pure speculation with absolutely no support like him gaining the wolf form and armour later in life. Well, until Hyrule Historia came out, where even when people are saying Hyrule Historia isn't evidence, their evidence for this theory is that Hyrule Historia says it's true. And while this video doesn't give that missing evidence I wanted (so I could debate that), I'm so glad someone actually made a video acknowledging and debunking the theory. The theory has absolutely no support beyond blind faith in Hyrule Historia. It's incredibly easy to argue against simply because of that lack of evidence. "It's called the Hero's Shade, so it has to be Link." No, it doesn't. There are many references to other, unknown heroes in the history of Hyrule that are not Link. The Hero's Bow in Majora's Mask must have belonged to a hero that came before the Hero of Time. The Hero's Bow in Wind Waker doesn't look like the Fairy Bow the Hero of Time used, even if we ignore the name change. The Hero's Bow in Twilight Princess doesn't resemble the Hero's Bow from Majora's Mask or the Fairy Bow from Ocarina of Time. There's the Hero of Men in the backstory of Minish Cap. The Hero's Shield in Wind Waker doesn't really look like the Hylian Shield in Ocarina of Time. Even the Hero's Tunic in Twilight Princess looks drastically different from the Kokiri Tunic in Ocarina of Time, suggesting that it's not even the actual tunic the Hero of Time wore. In Wind Waker, Orca gives Link the Hero's Sword, which is not the Kokiri Sword (looks very different) and definitely not the Master Sword. And that's just the stuff that's easy to find. So being the "Hero's Shade" is meaningless in terms of identity. Being left-handed is really weak evidence. The lack of a tunic is circular logic. Even the whole theory of him being the Hero of Twilight's ancestor isn't really evidence, being circular logic with this very theory. Too many times I've heard people say the evidence the Hero's Shade is the Hero of Time is that he refers to the Hero of Twilight as "son", only for the evidence for the Hero of Twilight being the descendant of the Hero of Time being that the Hero's Shade refers to him as "son". The potential relationship between the Hero's Shade and the Hero of Twilight is not evidence of the Hero's Shade being the Hero of Time, as there is no evidence the Hero of Time is the ancestor of the Hero of Twilight without already assuming the Hero's Shade is the Hero of Time. The Hero's Shade being the Hero of Twilight's ancestor is a theory I actually believe, it's practically confirmed in the original Japanese text, but there's no suggestion there that he's the Hero of Time. All in all, I'm glad these issues are finally being acknowledged, and not just by random, unknown people on forums, but by someone with more than 3 thousand subscribers in a video with 15 thousand views. It's great to finally have someone with any influence in the community do more than just make up fanfics about how the theory could work.
I'd like to point out, in the Twilight Princess Manga, it's revealed that the shade is the Hero of Time. That being said, it's possible that the writer of the manga, who made it years after the game came out, was following the fan theories... But to me, it just makes the most sense. But, I do have one potential counter-argument I'd like to offer, regarding the possibility of the Shade being the Hero of Time even outside the Manga. This isn't to debunk your claims; I only feel it is worth mentioning First, I could overlook the Hero's Shade being taller than he was as the Hero of Time; we've seen how big the Stalfos are in Ocarina of Time - they are MUCH taller than LInk. You did point out that the Shade still has a body, even if it's spectral, so he's clearly not a 'true' Stalfos even if he was supposed to resemble one. But there's one thing you didn't mention. We know Link still had the Triforce of Courage even after Ganondorf was defeated in the adult timeline, as Ganondorf himself still had the Triforce of Power - we see he has it in Wind Waker too; it never left him in the adult timeline. Why this is significant here is that Ganondorf also has the Triforce of Power in the Child Timeline, where Twilight Princess takes place. It protected him from being executed by the Sages at the Arbiter's Grounds, and he lived on in spirit form in the Twilight Realm, until he was able to rebuild his body and return to life. Why do I bring this up? OoT Link had the Triforce of Courage at the end of the game; he was sent back through time by Zelda, but we never saw the Triforce leave him. What if, at the time of OoT Link's death, if he *was* about to be turned into a Stalfos... The Triforce of Courage protected him, and allowed him to live on in spirit form just as the ToP did for Ganondorf? While this could also be debunked by suggesting it could have left him at the time of his death, maybe it did, but only after protecting him, and it relocated to his successor - just like the Triforce of Wisdom did, by leaving Zelda in OoT but inherited by her descendant in Twilight Princess. Could OoT's hero continuing 'living on' in spirit form, bound to the world by an unfulfilled sense of duty or purpose, as many spirits are believed to be? This next part is just my own take on the song discrepancies, and a personal theory - not an argument. First, I want to point out not 'all' of the songs OoT Link knew were taught to him. There was one that wasn't known by anyone else - at the time, because the people who wrote it were already dead. The Sun's Song, written by the Composer Brothers. As for the Song of Healing, perhaps he couldn't use it on himself because he already died. The song heals troubled spirits and evil magic, but maybe those who have taken on spirit form cannot use it to heal themselves. Also even if he could, it's officially stated that it turns those regrets and woes into a Mask; if he used it on himself and it DID work, it wouldn't really do him any good. For why he appears as a Golden Wolf, I think this once again comes back to the Triforce; in the Manga, the Hero's Shade lives in the Twilight Realm as the Golden Wolf, and a companion to Midna - until Zant's uprising. By this point, the Hero of Twilight might not have received the Triforce of Courage yet because its previous bearer still carried it - it's confirmed that the Triforce of Courage is what protected Link from the Twilight, turning him into a beast instead of a spirit or a monster. But, I admit this is a loose theory and probably not accurate, and it contradicts the suggestion I made earlier about the Triforce protecting the Hero of Time, because there's no real explanation as to how he would've ended up in the Twilight Realm after that happened, nor does it explain exactly 'when' the ToC moved from OoT Link to TP Link.
I want to politely let you know of a few corrections of some points that you brought up. First, you mentioned that the Triforce never left Link in the Adult timeline. This is not true. In Wind Waker, the King of Red Lions states: "That sacred piece is known as the Triforce of Courage. When the Hero of Time was called to embark on another journey and left the land of Hyrule, he was separated from the elements that made him a hero. It is said that at that time, the Triforce of Courage was split into eight shards and hidden throughout the land." When Link left the Adult Timeline, he left the Triforce behind as well. All we see at the end of OoT is the SYMBOL of the Triforce on his hand. The symbol can stay on the hand even after the Triforce is no longer within you. For proof of this, go to the final battle of WW and zoom in on Ganondorf's hand or Zelda's hand when Link stabs Dorf in the head. You will see the Triforce symbol is still there despite having left his body. Second, The Sun's Song is something that even the guards of Kakariko are aware exists. Third, Link already had the Song of Healing used on him when he removed the Deku form from himself. Also, the song can work on both the living and the dead. For example, Pamela's father is still living when it is used on him. Mikau and Darunia are both already dead. However, there are some spirits who can resist it, which implies that consent is involved in the song's effectiveness. As for the manga, I don't think you have to worry about it at all since it is not canon.
@hintonempire1178 Fair points; i did not remember that the Triforce DID leave Link when he was sent back in time... It seems there were some gaps in my knowledge after all, as I thought it would have traveled still in his possession. Though, I suppose then I introduced a gap in my own explanation, because if that were the case would it even still exist in the adult timeline if he still had it. Yeah, that oversight is on me... There's only one inconsistency left though... You're right about the Goron (WAS his name Darunia?? I thought that was the one in OoT) was dead, but wasn't Mikau still alive when Link played the song of healing for him? On the brink of death, certainly, but not actually dead yet. It's been a long time since I played Majora's Mask; I could possibly be misremembering.
Manga's its own continuity and while it DOES have the Hero's Shade as the Hero of Time, it also says he's NOT TP Link's blood ancestor which seems very weird. I thought that was a translation error but someone in a shin a comments section said that it got checked.
I also don't agree that The Hero's Shade is Time Link. My theory is that the Shade is the Spirit of the Hero that resides within Link and all the other Links.
Okay except he confirms TP Link related to him, a blood descendant and that he himself was a former hero who knows the sword and references he wore a similar green tunic.
The hero of time wouldnt have the master sword, he put it back after returning to his time. It is implied that majora mask link has regrets of not being the hero as ganondorf was stopped before he could enact his evils.
-But perhaps it’s possible he brought back/kept the scabbard that held the ms. -I can’t recall anywhere in MM how/where that is implied? I don’t think that is correct at all, and fine with as long as ganon was prevented and halted - and more likely/in character of link would be his regret that he couldn’t do more to prevent the extent of damage ganon and his gerudo followers had still done battling until he was defeated and captured. The in game quote is accurate - not the little bit written in HH book which has a few other things definitely inaccurate.
There's only one thing tho that 100% is a tell tell that this IS Link from OOT. If the Heroes Shade isn't the OOT Link then why is he a lefty? Left handed swordsmen aren't exactly common and we all know Link is by nature a lefty.
Oot adult link doesn’t have the master sword when he is a child and he turns back into a child before majoras mask and after so of course it would look different and it is also confirmed by developers that twilight princess is 100 years after oot when he talks about his regrets I get that he had the ocarina of time but that doesn’t make him not have regrets BOOM you just got debunked by a young teen
About the height, remember he went back being a kid, so that time he had proper nutrition to grow properly to adulthood, and not staying in a room for 7 years without proper nutrition. The master sword was returned to the temple of time, so Hero's Shade's sword isn't the master sword. And well, no matter how skilled he is, he ain't beating a whole army of soldiers all by himself.
The first bit is just a bit too head-canon for our taste. And the point was mostly about his Scabbard, and how many thought they matched but there’s in fact differences. But in that note: if evil should rise again, then it would make sense for Link to take up the Master Sword once more as that’s what tends to happen in the lore. I’ll give you that we haven’t seen Ocarina Link himself taking on armies, but other Links like BotW/TotK have taken down armies of Lynels and other monsters by himself. Link tends to be the most skilled warrior in all the games, or becomes such at some point in his journey. I find it harder to believe that Link was taken out in battle by a random unnamed soldier or bokoblin for example, especially after MM where we see Link is far more agile and acrobatic, is skilled, and powerful in his own right. Just doesn’t make a lot of sense
@@ratedn The nutrition explanation makes perfect sense in my opinion, and well, Hero's Shade being the Hero of Time obviously seems to be the developers intention, he even does the little side steps just like the Hero of Time does! Remember he wouldn't have any items he normally uses, and I think he would die in battle on the front lines, getting "ganked" by some soldiers, not on a duel, even the most skilled warriors aren't able to take a bunch of enemies(other skilled human swordsmen) at once, this also feels more grounded and realistic, the Hero of Time managing to have offspring before dying young(again, maybe if not on the front lines, a disease is also an option after getting those battle scars of course). There's also a theory that Dark Link defeated him, which I find really cool. And well I think comparing the appearance of the bow and the hidden skills is a bit of a stretch taken too literally, remember the N64 had limitations and the developers wouldn't limit themselves with a next game on a brand new hardware, of course they would make Hyrule a lot bigger, more awesome moves for Link, let the artists imagination flow for the weapon designs and stuff like that. Nintendo talked about that on an interview if I'm not mistaken, they have the "gameplay first" mentality and don't care much about much consistency. They might have thought about the Hero's Shade being the Hero of Time after the initial concepts and ideas for him, and eventually settled with the Hero of Time idea(every idea in every game changes during development, calling that out is kind of an argument that takes things too literally, concept art is not the final intended product). The night time soundtrack for Twilight Princess uses Malon's singing, I like to think that's s Malon's(Hero of Time's SO) spirit calling for her husband back and/or blessing the Hero of Time with protection! Aonuma said Twilight Princess takes place a hundred or so years after Ocarina/Majora's Mask, so the Hero of Time's spirit coming back on Hyrule's worst crisis yet also makes sense. Maybe the Hero's Shade regret comes from not being able to be recognized for the things he has done as an adult during Ocarina, because everything the royal family really knows about him is that he only called out on Ganondorf's betrayal and was right about it, not for actually defeating him and etc.
I've never been 100% convinced that the hero's shade is actually the hero of time. More likely he was a previous hero of hyrule perhaps of the same lineage as the Hero but doesn't have to be the hero of time.
New Zelda Month video just released! Check it out here: (after you watch this video)
th-cam.com/video/_qBk7w9MnQA/w-d-xo.htmlsi=xUgvCxbCeyX3Q2dR
I greatly enjoyed this analysis! It's cool too hear an opposing argument for once.
Now, allow me to counter a few points.
*Regarding the Song of Healing:*
You claim that if the Hero of Time knew the song of healing then he wouldn't need to die with regrets. However, in Majoras Mask there is a poe collector who says, "You cannot heal all souls with that song," and Sharpe says, "Hmm? Somehow, my heart is eased. This melody has a serenity to it... And yet... To one of the dead and darkness, like myself, a song like that no longer holds meaning for me."
So it is possible that Link couldn't heal him soul because (1) His soul is immune to the notes (2) He died before he had a chance to play the song, and ended up like Sharp.
*Regarding the Magic Spin Attack:*
The Hero of Time obtained this ability by going to the great fairy of power. It is also where he obtains the magic meter. So it is impossible for the Hero of Time to teach this technique to the Hero of Twilight because he needs a great fairy to learn it.
*Regarding the Hero of Time Being Remembered:*
Renado from Kakario Village directly mentions the Hero of Time. He says, "In Hyrule, countless tales are told of the ancient hero...and your deeds bring them all to mind." So you have a point there. The Hyrule Historia is flat out wrong.
Thank you so much!!!
Interesting points! I'm a little perplexed though.
Counter to Counter:
Song of Healing:
It never says that the Song of Healing will heal your soul forever of that the song of healing will work on everything! And surely, souls change overtime. So even though the song worked at one point there is no guarantee it will work later. It's possible that Hero of Time's regret was a different kind of pain than being a deku scrub. The song of healing does not work on everything.
You are leaning on too much speculation when you assume the Song of Healing would heal everything.
Magic Spin Attack:
In Majoras Mask, Link gets the magic meter by helping the Great Fairy in Clock Town. He couldn't "train" himself to learn it again.
The Hero's Shade also didn't need to teach the Hero of Twilight the "quick spin" since The Hero of Twilight already knew how to do it.
Not sure about the "shield poking move" though. Maybe it's not worth teaching cause it makes you stationary? (It also has limited usage in OoT)
The Hero of Time Being Remembered:
I'm... not sure why you countered that point? I was agreeing with you.
You tried proving that Hyrule Historia is wrong because it claims "Link felt regret about not being remembered." I was agreeing with you by showing that Renado's comment (if it's about Ocarina of Time Link) would prove that The Hero of Time is still remembered.
@@ratedn
@@TheBreadPirate I want to point another thing out about the Song of Healing: it's never actually used to help the individual that plays it and you HAVE to have a magical instrument to actually achieve the effect. On my first point, when Link uses the song to get himself out of the deku scrub point, he's not easing his own regrets but the regrets OF THE ORIGINAL DEKU SCRUB'S SOUL THAT RESIDES WITHIN THE MASK. Have to remember that Link is still very much alive as well. So if Link dies and no one is around with a magical instrument like the Ocarina of Time or Fairy Ocarina to play the song for him, he could still very much be filled with regrets that persist to Twilight Princess's time.
YO! That's a great point!@@Kamodomon
@@TheBreadPirate
- We know for a fact that the Song of Healing works for HoT because it healed him in MM, and this was while he was already dealing with "searching for his precious friend", Navi. Characters like Sharp had "sold his soul to the devil" (according to Flat), so that's a sufficient explanation to why it doesn't affect him. As for souls changing, this gets too far into headcanon territory to argue over. What we can say for certain is that HoT has a magical way to ease regrets that is proven to affect him. Anything beyond that is all in the imagination.
- The fact still stands that the Shade does not teach anything that the Hero of Time knew, so it doesn't provide anything to support the idea that the Shade is HoT and can safely be shelved. Showing the aesthetic, habits, and techniques of the HoT would have been a simple and easy way to signal that the Shade is that hero, yet not a single sign was given. That cannot be ignored.
- People very frequently use that comment from Renado to claim that it refers to HoT. I am sorry if I misinterpreted your meaning. I literally saw a mutual acquaintance of ours bring it up a couple of days ago, so apologies for that.
I want to believe that OoT Link had a happy ending with Malon because, well DAMN IT he deserves it! but sadly I believe he is indeed the Hero's shade
Hero of Twilight is his descendant, so the Hero of Time definitely had offspring
He even killed Ganondorf after he came back. Twilight Ganon is not the same as in OOT . It was confirmed by the Gorons and the canon Nintendo comic from 2018 that Ganondorf was killed again in the child timeline by the legendary hero. The Hero of Time and the fierce diety were combined in to one being and Time could use only small procentage of it's power. That's how he defeated Ganon so easily once he escaped from his seal.
@@alexyordanov6250 where's the source to that? I'm curious to see if that's actually legit or not
I want to believe in that ending too give the man a happy ending
@@alexyordanov6250 Yeah, what comic is that? Are you talking about the TP manga?
I have my own theory in regards to the Hero's Shade being the Hero of Time.
When Link returned to the Child Timeline, he warned Zelda and the King of Hyrule with the Triforce of Courage as proof.
After this, the King of Hyrule investigates, and learns of the plotting of Ganondorf and quickly drives him back into Gerudo Valley. While he does this, he proves his worth by helping the Gorons and Zora, and eventually befriends Malon. After spending a short amount of time in Hyrule and befriending the races, Malon and Zelda, he began his adventure looking for Navi, the truth of the Hero of Time being left a secret to the Royal Family.
Years of searching, Link returns to Hyrule, unsuccessful in finding Navi but making new friends in the form of Skull Kid, Tatl and Tael. Returning to Hyrule, he fonds Ganondorf had invaded the kingdom, and as a result, takes up the blade as a knight of Hyrule to stand against and perhaps be the one to defeat him, using his newly developed Hidden Skills to better defeat him, but not kill him as he didn't have the Master Sword still behind the door of time.
Captured, Ganondorf is set to be executed, but awakens the Triforce of Power and sealed within the Twilight Realm. As a result, Link, Zelda and Impa begin to prepare should Ganondorf return.
Link seperates his spirit, into modified Gossip Stones, moddified by Impa, to convert them into Howling Stones. The fragments fueled by his regret of not being the hero to defeat Ganondorf, knowing that he only delayed him at most.
He asks his friend, the Skull Kid, to watch over the Temple of Time, which had been taken over by the Lost Woods. Finally, he leaves Hyrule to the Ordona Providence with Malon, having a family to keep them away from Hyrule and closer to the forest to act as it's protector until he passes.
The Hero's Shade isn't the Hero of Time fully, but fragments of him. The size of the Fierce Deity, the skills of the Hero of Time, acting as a test to better prepare the next hero, taunting him yet encouraging him, testing him, knowing that he himself was but a young child forced to be a hero and havong to mature without a childhood to return to, but instead trying to ease and prepare his descendant to be a hero.
nah, the master sword’s entire purpose to defeat evil + Ganondorf can only be deafeated by the master sword
@FormerlyKownAsCaptainJapanBall
Only Link can defeat Gannon.
That and Silver Arrows. Whether Link had the Master Sword or not, I'm not sure, but with the Door of Time sealed, I like to think maybe it was done without it, which is how Link lost an eye in the first place.
Remember, in OOT, you could defeat Ganondorf with the Big Gorron Sword or the Megaton Hammer. You didn't need the Master Sword. But you needed Light Arrows. It was only with the Triforce of Power that turned Ganondorf into Ganon that made you need the Master Sword to defeat him.
I think Link fought Ganondorf, defeated him but lost an eye doing so, and unable to kill him without the Master Sword, brought him to the sages, where they made a Sword specifically created to execute him. He nearly died, but because of the "Divine Prank," the Triforce of Power awakened. At that time, the Master Sword became a necessity which was not available at the time.
I'm going into theory territory, but it makes sense to me.
@@wolfzend5964 Alright
"it says here only Link can defeat Ganon" -guy from cdi games 😂
@@hylianro lmaooo fr, by that logic, the sages wouldn’t have been able to seal ganon away
Zelda Devs: "Would be cool to make a throwback reference to Ocarina of Time for the fans with this tutorial skeleton guy you guys designed"
Little did they know the sheer CHAOS they were about to unleash
But that's the problem, there's nothing actually in the game that would work as a throwback except the music, which isn't really much.
i think it's weird how similar the scabbards are but the absence of the triforce logo is a big detail that i can't think of a good reason why it's not there.
while i agree the concept art shows the developers didn't initially intend the hero of shade to be the hero of time they might have changed their minds later.
The female Hero's Shade concept art may have originally been intended to be either the Zelda or Impa of Ocarina of Time before the developers decided to make her the Hero of Time himself for narrative meaning. It's possible Nintendo always intended for the Shade to be someone "important" earlier during development without a specific idea as to who. It wouldn't be until after careful deliberation that the Hero of Time was chosen for his identity.
I always thought the scabbard was magical. It's kind of strange Link just randomly gains it when he gets the master sword and seemingly loses possession of it when he lays down the sword to rest. It's a video game though so I don't think these types of details are going to be accounted for
@@hylianro The sword itself is magical after all so it makes sense that the scabbard could magically manifest on the back of the Hero whenever he removes it from it's pedestal.
@@javiervasquez625 right? That was always my headcanon
@@hylianro I have a feeling it's also Nintendo's headcanon given their unwillingness of explicitly confirming it despite the obvious evidence supporting it.
I'm so glad to see someone making theories about the GAMES and not just taking some of the developer's comments as gospel.
However, there could be other reasons behind the height discrepancy between adult OoT Link and the Hero’s Shade could be from residual magic due to perhaps multiple uses of the Fierce Deity Mask.
That's a massive stretch and doesn't have any supporting evidence. There are far more times you use the Deku Mask, Goron Mask, and Zora Mask. They are required to be used several times to beat the game (not counting glitches). The Fierce Deity Mask can't even be obtained until the very end of the game, after countless uses of the other masks, right before the fight with Majora, and is only usable in boss fights. While a player can fight Majora and continue off like nothing happened to fight all of the bosses endlessly, Link would have to get the mask, reset time without fighting Majora, and rematch all of the bosses before fighting Majora to use it more than once. And unless he resets time to fight those bosses multiple times, delaying the fight with Majora, that's still only 5 uses at most. It makes sense for the player to do, but doesn't make sense for Link to canonically do.
I remember back in the day when this theory was fresh. The problem with a lot of game fanbases is that if a theory is repeated often enough, it eventually becomes gospel. I've always viewed the Hero of Time being the Hero's Shade being a cool theory, but he also easily could be someone else. Link to the Past Link, for example, isn't directly related to the Hero of Time, but he is the last of the bloodline of Hyrule's Knights.
I would also like to mention that one of the songs the Golden Wolf howls is the Ballad of the Gales from Wind Waker. This is a song not even in the same timeline as the Hero of Time, meaning these songs are more likely references rather than implying that this character has personal experience with each song.
Great video, very well-constructed arguments, and I even see merit in a few of them. In my opinion though, the Shade being the hero of time just feels more narratively satisfying than him just being some random guy, and sometimes that's all you need to believe a fan theory lol Either way, definitely glad that I found this channel.
I have a question. you mention that the Hero's shade knows all the songs OoT Link knows, and OoT Link knowing the song of healing means he would never let himself fall into a death full of regret. but if the shade also knew the song of healing, why wouldn't the same apply to him? my only theory is one cannot use the song of healing on themselves, another is needed (like the dancer guy, he wanted to pass on his dance, and Link allowed him to do that, creating the mask he would then use to teach others this dance. the shade's regret being that he was never able to pass on his skills in battle, he'd still need someone to take the resulting mask and use it with the skills imbued into it)
as for Link being bested by a normal monster, I never saw the argument as "that eye injury came from the battle that killed him", more it's just a battle injury, and I can ABSOLUTELY see him losing an eye *to protect someone else* who got caught up in a fight. like the one he loves. if we're going with the theory of him staying to protect Romani, and them having to fend off things like aliens to protect the cows, I could absolutely see him getting hurt and losing an eye by taking a blow meant for her, to make sure she survived the night. but that's no proof he's Link, as that could apply to basically any warrior of this era.
I must say though, this did honestly convince me, and also makes me feel better. I hated the idea that OoT Link didn't get remembered as a hero and suffered for it, so it's nice to see that isn't actually accurate.
I do think nintendo themselves confirmed that he is oot link though
@@Schro_They have not. That idea was made up by the books.
@@Schro_ do you have the source for that? cause the video lists every source I'm aware of and debunked them pretty well. if there's a new statement released I'd like to see it.
Ye
@@Moon-Vixenhyrule historia
Counterpoint: Since the Shade is the result of the child timeline, Link ... grew up. And learned stuff. He learned additional skills and got new armor. The premise that he didn't - implied by the video - is less believable. The scabbard doesn't match because the Master Sword was sealed away for safekeeping, because its only purpose is to defeat Ganon. And the scabbard wouldn't fit a different sword, since the Master Sword is uniquely shaped.
The nitpicking over the regret is not concrete evidence, either. He wasn't remembered as a hero, ergo, he couldn't pass on his skills as the hero. Which further lends credence to him learning new skills and proving himself as a knight on his own, even not as The Great Hero.
You're right that there is a period of time between games where Link would have grown up. And the lack of information on what happened during that period of time doesn't prove he isn't the Hero's Shade. But it doesn't prove he is either. It's pure speculation what did or could have happened in that timeframe. And if you pay attention to the video, he does acknowledge the possibility of him learning new techniques and such.
However, his point is not to say that the lack of information in itself debunks the theory, his point is that the lack of information shows a lack of evidence in support of the theory. We don't know what happened to Link after Majora's Mask, so saying he joined the Knights of Hyrule and learned all of these techniques and gained some sort of connection to a wolf is speculation, it's not evidence.
As for the regret thing, it's not really nitpicking. The scabbard point is nitpicking, because you're right, whomever the Hero's Shade once was, it would be the scabbard for a different sword entirely. The Master Sword isn't really uniquely shaped, not in a way that matters for a scabbard, but the Hero of Time wouldn't have had the Master Sword anyway, not the same scabbard (which... Kind of appeared out of nowhere). The regret, however, is the entire point of the Hero's Shade. It's the explanation for why it exists in the first place, why this being became a Shade instead of passing on, and why they are teaching the Hero of Twilight these techniques.
Which brings us to the topic of the regrets themselves... And what you said is the very issue.
The Hero's Shade states that he regrets not passing on his techniques. The Japanese version actually more directly states that these techniques are passed down through his bloodline, which only matters here because it kind of nullifies the "he was forgotten ergo he couldn't pass them on" bit you said. If you're teaching the techniques to your descendants, it doesn't really change whether or not you were remembered as a hero by others. They're your family either way, so the only way it could matter is if being forgotten means you never had a family and thus nobody to pass the techniques onto, which... That's a completely separate topic. Point is, being forgotten wouldn't have prevented him from passing on his sword skills to his children.
The regret stated in the game says absolutely nothing about a potential connection to the Hero of Time. Once again, it's a lack of evidence supporting the theory they are the same person, even if it is not evidence against the theory itself. But that's a common trend the video points out, not evidence disproving the theory, but the theory lacking evidence in the first place.
Back on topic, the regret stated in the game neither supports nor denies a potential connection. But Hyrule Historia gives a different regret, one directly tied to the idea of the Hero's Shade being the Hero of Time. He regrets not being remembered as a hero. And again, this is important because the regret is the entire (in-game) reason for his existence. But here's the issue. While Hyrule Historia states he regrets not being remembered as a hero, Majora's Mask starts off stating the exact opposite, stating that Link was celebrated as a hero of legend. There's also potential evidence in Twilight Princess itself, with Renado mentioning "countless tales of the ancient hero." I say "potential" evidence because this could easily be talking about a different hero, but the same could be said about the Hero's Shade in the first place. Which means that this source of regret doesn't make sense. So one explanation doesn't support the theory, the other contradicts the games and thus is easily disproven. It can't even be both together.
Now, again, the cause of the regret is important in that it's the whole point of the character's existence in terms of storytelling, so the regret needs to make sense. But as stated, the regret doesn't directly disprove the idea of the Hero's Shade being the Hero of Time.
But that's the whole point of the video. The focus of the video is not finding evidence proving the Hero's Shade isn't the Hero of Time. It's pointing out evidence that denies the evidence supporting the theory. Pointing out the problem with the Hero's Shade regretting not being remembered doesn't prove that the Hero's Shade isn't the Hero of Time, but it does mean that Hyrule Historia can't be trusted as evidence supporting the theory, it does mean that the regret is not evidence supporting the theory. Similarly, the scabbard doesn't prove the lack of connection either, it's just another point that lacks evidence for the explanation. Same goes for the different techniques, the wolf connection, the height difference. There is no evidence denying the possibility of the Hero's Shade being the Hero of Time, but there's also no evidence proving or supporting the possibility either. The whole point of the video is that every point the theory makes is speculation and not actual proof.
And besides, the hero of time wielding the master sword a second time is hinted in the game
Back when I first played Twilight Princess, it was one of the only Zelda games I played, over and over again. I played Wind Waker, and a little bit of Four Swords Adventures, but Twilight Princess was my go-to. I didn't play Ocarina of Time, I was too young to have played it as a kid, and my family didn't even have the Nintendo 64.
The Hero's shade seemed just like this badass specter who could teach Link really awesome sword techniques. I knew as a kid there was more to him, because he took the form of a wolf like the Hero of Twilight, and was summoned by the wolf's howl. It wasn't until I discovered the fan theories of the shade being the Hero of Time that I truly realized the Shade shared a bloodline with the Hero of Twilight.
This video was very well constructed, I agree with many of the points. I do like the connections people can make between Twilight Princess and Ocarina, they have very similar game structure DNA, as all Zelda games share with locations, music, the timeless tale of courage and wisdom defeating Evil, but at the same time, if the evidence to support the idea that the Hero's shade is not as overwhelming and well-supported as we thought initially, it can still open up possibilities for connecting the Hero's shade to be a descendant of the Hero of time, and ancestor of thr Hero of Twilight. But that will be just as theoretical as the previous theory, and depending on what information we rely on, it will be strengthened or weakened, changing over time. A lot of people are attached to that theory, I understand. But in my heart, I didn't see the Hero of Time in the crimsin eye of the shade. I saw a decrepit, somber warrior of old, restless until he could pass on what he knew in a meaningful way. Kin of a Hero, that spirit who shared a wolf's form, who taught us important lessons. One I remember best, simple as it is, it is still true;
-'A sword wields no strength unless the hand that holds it has courage'.
There is plenty of evidence suggesting that the Hero's Shade is the ancestor of the Hero of Twilight. In English, it does feel like a stretch because the evidence most people mention is just that he calls Link "son", but that's a common thing for older generations to do to newer generations even without a blood relation. But in the original Japanese, he more directly suggests that the Hero of Twilight has a blood connection to him and states the techniques are only to be taught to his bloodline.
That being said, while there is evidence of ancestry between the Hero of Twilight and the Hero's Shade... There is no evidence of ancestry between the Hero of Twilight and the Hero of Time, or between the Hero's Shade and the Hero of Time.
I'm 6 minutes in and you're talking about how his equipment isn't the same as the hero's equipment in OoT. Link grew up not being the hero of time. he joined the Hyrule army, learnt new techniques, got new equipment. he definitely wouldn't have the same scabbard because he technically never pulled the master sword out since Zelda sent him back in time prior to opening the Door of Time.
First I would just suggest you watch the video fully before leaving this comment, we touch on more of these things later in the video. But, I would like to ask, where in the games does it state that Link joined the army after Majora’s Mask, learned new techniques, gained new equipment, etc. Aside from this I ask you to watch the video in full.
@@ratedn the joining the Hyrule army comment was just a fill in the blank kind of thing since Zelda uses a storytelling where you can speculate. like maybe he became a recluse and designed his own armor and everything, and lost his eye somehow, maybe another Hyrulian Civil War where he fought in favour of the Kokiri.
@@ThizbeSylvan Some Zeldatubers like Commonwealth Realm has suggested that after Link revealed Ganondorf's treachery to the king of Hyrule a war erupted between the Gerudo and Hyrule which might have lasted many years before it actually ended. Given the fact that the Sacred Grove has been _confirmed_ to be the old Hyrule Market Town from Ocarina of Time this leads credence to the possibility that the kingdom sustained a major conflict following Link's return from the Adult Timeline which lead to the destruction of the old Market Town.
@@javiervasquez625 > "the Sacred Grove has been confirmed to be the old Hyrule Market Town from Ocarina of Time"
Has it?
@@Wighen18 Same Temple of Time right next to a Town Square eerily similar to the one in Ocarina of Time with the same circular fountain where Malon and other NPCs could be found standing next to. It's clearly the same Market Town following a catastrophe (heavily implied to have been a war) left it in ruins leading to it's currently ruined state.
The Hyrule Historia part of kinda shaky. Those are CONCEPT ARTs. We don't know the state of the game when those pieces of art were made. They all could have been at different points are made at a single certain point. We don't really know the context behind those pieces of art, so it's kinda not valuable to use it to help or hurt any theory of any sort. So saying that samurai art "hurts the theory of OoT Link being the hero's shade" is kinda dubious at best. We know that, at one point in BotW's development, they considered Hyrule to be more closely related to our time than medieval fantasy that's commonly used. But they don't use that idea really for the final game. A LOT OF ideas are throw out and discarded during a creative endeavor. Good video though. You put in a lot of work, clearly.
ALSO the point about the master sword and the triforce symbol is true, TP Link IS the hero and those are the signs but that doesn't mean he's READY to fully preform his tasks as such. OoT Link was able to pull the master sword but his body wasn't ready to wield it, which is directly stated in Ocarina of Time. That's the whole journey of the game is to get the Link's the experience and tools to defeat the evil. Otherwise, once you'd get to the Master Sword, you should just be able to go slay evil ASAP, but that's never the case in these games. Master Sword is always a PIECE of the puzzle, never the final nail in the coffin of evil.
Also, the point about Link living with Cremia and Romani is an interesting one. I can see it happening but I don't agree with the point that Romani's dialog implies "consent" from Link. Ruto also does something similar with that Link when she gives him the Zora Sapphire. No one really assumes that Link and Ruto are married, do they? Romani and Ruto are kids and some things you should just disregard from kids because they're just being silly. Also, the dialog of Cremia to Link about "adulthood" is getting into fanfiction territory, lol. She just saying that he did a very brave and dangerous thing by helping hero out against the bandits, something WAY BEYOND his years (and that's technically right with all the time travel, lol). That doesn't really feel like "hey, you can come live with us now!" Also, once again, we don't know where OoT Link went to after Majora's Mask for certain. He could have just settled for a different farm life elsewhere from Termina and Hyrule. We see Link leaving Termina after Majora's Mask, that doesn't mean he went back to hyrule or even returned to Termina, we just know he left.
heck those concept arts for TP have alternate outfits for TP Link and him at different ages, different hairsyles and one that makes him look like a K-pop idol.
Lol, it is confimed by the director of Twilight Princess that the hero's shade is Ocarina of Time Link and is the ancestor of Twilight's Link.
The voice acting for hero shade was 🔥
16:25 on the Song of Healing, i kinda got the opposite out of that quote. even if the song works on Link and he could have played it for himself, i feel like the Hero's Shade answers the question of why he wouldn't do that, if he actually is the Hero of Time:
the Shade is saying that his final regret is not being able to pass down what he knows. to me, after his experience in Ocarina and learning the importance of sacrifice for the good of the future, the Hero of Time seems like the kind of person who would choose to make a sacrifice like this. he seems like he would rather endure an eternity of being a tortured spirit until the right person comes along to pass his knowledge down to, rather than take what he might consider an "easy way out". he knows that his skill and knowledge would be valuable for the greater good, and would be more important to him than finding his own peace quicker and just playing the song. so he'd rather wait until the right person is able to find him before he is able to move on.
and going off of that even further, maybe he felt like deep down, even the Song of Healing couldn't ease that one regret of not passing down what he's learned to protect the future when he's gone.
[[either way this is a great video and you make some really compelling points i'd never considered before! :) ]]
Another fantastic banger. Though I personally do believe that the shade is the hero of time. Or if not, I think it would be his son possibly. I love how much effort you put into challenging the status quo, really impressive
What's interesting is that while there is no evidence proving a connection between the Hero's Shade and the Hero of Time, neither proving they are the same person nor even just the same lineage, it is all but directly stated (at least in the Japanese version) that the Hero's Shade is the ancestor of the Hero of Twilight. Everyone links the two theories together, but they're unrelated. One has no actual evidence and is pure speculation, while the other has actual evidence just looking at the in-game dialog.
Subscribed. Not because of Fi's interruption, but because of the responce you gave to her: "We will gain subscribers if our content is high enough quality".
...and damn straight, it was.
Thank you!
An interesting analysis. It's always fascinating when long held beliefs are put into question.
As far as who Ocarina of Time Link coupling with anyone in Termina, the end of Majora's Mask shows him back in the forest where he started; out side of Termina. Though, this is only a problem if you believe that Termina is only illusory (Link is dead, creation of the mask, or some of the other theories I've herd), making it impossible for them to back togeather. I, on the other hand, think Termina is a real place (in the Zelda universe), so I don't have a problem with Link returning to Termina some time after the screen goes dark.
Thank you! We try to bring to light the more obscure lore and theories in the community, give a voice to those who aren’t really heard. And absolutely agree, Termina is a real place within the universe of Zelda that Link and others could very well visit anytime
Took me 9 months to find this...
The Hero's Shade isn't the Hero of Time but one that appeared between the Hero of Time and the Hero of Twilight after Ganondorf's banishment and before the Hero of Twilight's birth.
He knew the King and Queen Zora, Ralis' not Ruto's parents, as they made the Zora armor as a gift for him safeguarded in the late King's tomb.
He is associated with more than just being an ancient Hero, he is also the last Messenger of the Sky. Only a Hero could move the Dominion Rod to the secret part of Temple of Time since it necessitates being able to wield the Master Sword to open the secret pathway. That last messenger of the Sky is connected to the Snowpeak Ruins through paintings depicting various locations such as the Sacred Grove, Hyrule Castle, Ordon Village and portraits of Zora Royalty as well as a strange old man. To access the City in the Sky you have to be the Messenger of the Sky and only the Hero could have hidden the Dominion Rod where it is found. Thus it is heavily suggested the last Messenger of the Sky was a Hero. The Dominion Rod is one of the keys that grant access to the city the other ones being the Sky Cannon and the grappling hook to operate it safeguarded by Zoras who knew the Hero. The Gorons that guarded the Hero's Bow are not exactly guarding the sky cannon but it is hidden within their victinity in Kakariko's shrine.
The previous Hero befriended the light spirits and gave Faron his tunic. The Hero's Shade expected the Hero of Twilight and him having the ability to turn into a wolf as he could probably do it at will through the Triforce of Courage' powers. Something our Link isn't able to and has to rely on curses to trigger it. Suggesting he was very experienced beyond his Hero duty, he had decades of experience in swordmanship, he was probably *quite old* when he died.... now remember the portrait in Snowpeak ruins of an old man.
Snowpeak ruins filled with Ordon specialities like pumpkin ans goat cheese indicating the resident of that manor, a hylian, had a great liking for this provencal place beyond Hyrule proper. Link the Hero of Twilight is the only pointed eared hylian in that village meaning he came to live here. His past is never explored but the fact he has very little knowledge of Hyrule beyond Ordon would suggest he came here as a young child from *somewhere else* I suggest might be Snowpeak Ruins before it was abandoned.
How long ago the knight of the golden wolf died, how long ago he as the ancient Hero destroyed the evil that threatened the kingdom after Ganondorf's banishment(Evil I suspect might be what Stallord used to be with flesh. Some kind of demonic evil Dragon.) Is unclear, it could be a hundred years maybe more... characters like Imparz might give us a clue, she was assigned a duty connected to the Messenger of the Sky but never met him in her 80+ years of life only knew what it was about through her fallen clan's legends. That time was when Old Kakoriko wasn't deserted and thus populated with undercover Sheikah thus before the event that wiped them out mentioned by the elder goron. It is implied old Kakariko was established by Impa of Ocarina of Time. This event has to be post-Ganondorf's banishment and connected to the ancient Hero and the evil he faced. Link was probanly sent to Ordon to protect the triforce of Courage his lineage had inherited. Whatever happened at Snowpeak might have compromised its safety.
So, the Hero of Time had his lineage pass down the Triforce of Courage after Ganon's banishment and the loss of the Triforce of Power. His lineage birthed a new Hero, the ancient Hero that took the Master Sword and defeated a great evil likely Stallord in the flesh and creatures imprisoned in the temple that serves as his tomb such as the demonic Death Sword. This Evil destroyed most the Sheikah during this conflict, and many soldiers as seen during Stallord's bossfight. The destruction of the Temple of Time and the disappearance of the Kokiri might have been linked to this event as well. The Hero victorious leaves his tunic and bow behind to the Gorons and Faron and retires as a Hero becoming the Knight of the Golden Wolf a master swordsman fulfilling the duty of the Messenger of the Sky before the ties were servered with the City in the Sky. He lived at the Snowpeak Mansion likely guarding the Triforce from whatever evil seeks it, he sees death coming to him and asks the remaining Sheikah to make the Howling Stones in order to instruct the future Hero his advanced swordsmaship. The Zora King being a close friend of his made the Zora Tunic but couldn't pass it to him before his death leaving it in his tomb. The Hero had the Dominion Rod returned to the Temple of Time and the clawshot given to the Zora that safeguarded it in the Lakebed Temple. He probably is the one responsible for the secret castle key in the castle graveyard that opens the treasure room since the Dominion Rod is needed to complete its trial. He probably has a connection to the Great Fairy's trial cave too.
It was certainly prophetized Evil, in the form of Ganondorf, would return and threaten Hyrule. All of his late actions served to assist the next Hero in his quest.
Very good video. I agree that with most of the video, except I still think the Hero's Shade is the Hero of Time. The reason I believe he's the Hero of Time is because he does the little feet movement thing. He's the only character in the game that does it and it the same movement that the Hero of Time does. It way to specific to be a coincidence.
Here's what I think happened. Based on the concept art, I think the Hero's Shade was not intended to be the Hero of Time at first. During the early concept period for Twilight Princess, they probable hadn't really considered when it would take place. Then, after deciding it was a sequel to Ocarina of Time, they thought it would be cool to make the Hero's Shade the Hero of Time.
When it comes to Malon vs Romani, I think both. He's the Hero of Two Timing, and that's how he died.
The voice acting for the hero's shade is super cool 😎 👌
My mind is pleasantly blown! I always had issues with the Hero's Shade being the Hero of Time, but every point I raised was quickly shot down by people of greater influence and allegedly "more knowledge" on the subject, which always meant deferring to Hyrule Historia, a book I have never considered authoritative due to many flaws, inconsistencies, and downright false statements. I never investigated the Hero's Shade matter further, however, so seeing just how much evidence there was to debunk the widely-accepted speculation is fascinating!
Another point I'd like to add is that the Hero's Shade is not the first occurrence of a past hero teaching Link. If I remember correctly, it was in The Minish Cap that a past hero known as Swiftblade taught skills to Link; of course, The Minish Cap was developed by Capcom rather than by Nintendo, so it may not be as weighty or authoritative, but it demonstrates that the Hero's Shade is not the first Zelda character of his kind.
¿Is there any evidence that proves Swiftblade to be a past Link? Otherwise there's no reason to suggest as much aside from baseless especulation with no basis found in the game itself. Wathever the case i'm pretty certain that Swiftblade is NOT a past Link as the series's Lore is very explicit in that every Hero born across the timeline has at least a few hundred years of separation from eachother without any chance of meeting another incarnation very much like Zelda and Ganondorf.
@@javiervasquez625 I'm actually using Swiftblade not being a Link as further credence that characters like him (such as the Hero's Shade) don't have to be Links.
@@BirdieSenpai Okay but how does that explain that the Hero Shade confirmed to be a past hero who referenced he once wore the proud green tunic Twilight Princess Link wears? His quote.
@@javiervasquez625 "every hero has a few centuries of separation"
Nope, Spirit Tracks Link meets a survivor of tetras pirate crew whos now an old geezer
more than 70 years couldn't have passed
@@be2081 He's the exception as to this day he's still the only Link to have been born almost inmediatly after his predecessor passed away.
How have I not seen this channel before? I agree with all of it. I never cared for Hyrule Historia, flat out refused to buy it when the clerk tried to sell it to me (on release). I only accept evidence directly from the games. I never really accepted this widely accepted theory. The only time I considered the shade as a possibility to be the hero of time was because of his red eye which I thought could be an eye which was trained to see the truth but it was never enough to fully convince me. Link staying with Romani instead of Malon makes sense. I also accept that Epona was killed by Skull Kid in MM so Link ended up with the Epona from MM. In fact many widely accepted claims such as the Official Time Line I flat out refuse to take seriously despite their prominence and acceptance by the authors and the community.
The main three details in Japanese Twilight Princess that are muddled or lost in English that are particularly damning are that he is a prior Hero of the Knights' bloodline, he wielded the Master Sword himself per his own words, and he explicitly calls TP Link his descendant.
The Master Sword part in particular means he has to at least be *a* Link who existed prior to TP, and certain details rule out SS and Minish Cap as possibilities.
I like the video and you being up great points, but I really do think the Hero’s shade is intentionally meant to be one and the same with the Hero of Time. There’s so much of his life that we don’t know about after Majora’s mask, and I’d love a third hero of time game to finally explain everything. I don’t think it’s that crazy to say that we’ll see the hero of time again, ocarina and majora will eventually be remade once more so maybe they could make a part 3
Keep in mind that this video, and the denial of the theory itself, focuses more on the lack of evidence supporting the connection. There is no real evidence supporting the notion that the Hero's Shade is the Hero of Time.
However, at the same time, there is no evidence stating the Hero's Shade cannot be the Hero of Time. That's not the point of the video. The point is just that we do not know. It is speculation who the Hero's Shade is, with no evidence either way. As someone that's never believed the theory, I am more than willing to admit that it is possible. I just don't like people talking about it like it's a proven fact. It isn't. It's speculation, a theory at best. There's no evidence that it's not possible, so don't take this or anything similar as people saying it's impossible or incorrect, believe it all you want. Just don't be like those that are on the other side, treating it like canon or denying the possibility of it being wrong or telling people they're wrong for not believing it.
The arrogant entitlement of some people.
“I only trust official sources”
**Nintendo says something**
“I don’t like it so I don’t believe it”
On height: The Hero of Time was placed in a magical sleep for seven years so his body could age up (from *10* years old, mind) to be _able_ to wield the master sword, but for one thing, 17 is *not* when boys stop growing, and for another, the age-up was the *bare minimum.* If left to grow naturally, there's no indication Link couldn't have reached the height of the Hero's Shade by the age of 25.
On armor: The Magic Armor is a *dull grey steel* without rupees, and when powered up it is _gold,_ not _bronze._ Also, the assertion that armor style differences are a point of contention is idiotic. As if styles of armor didn't change as technology and armorsmithing techniques improved. Don't be ridiculous. Look up Churburg armor (circa 12th/13th century) and compare it to Gothic or Milianese armor (both from the 15th century). I find the placement of the handed-ness here to be strange, but that said, I have seen none of those gold-armored horned soldiers wielding a sword, either; it's not much of a factor without other evidence.
On the scabbard: I hadn't seen this point of reference before, actually. I find it interesting that the scabbards are so similar. However, on the positioning of the scabbard at his hip, as you mentioned, the guy is huge. What makes you think he didn't just change habits? Most men weren't short enough to even warrant continuing to wear the blade that high (among other disadvantages). For another thing, it's easier to mount a sword on the hips of an armor than it is over the back/shoulder, especially with pauldrons like that.
On the Hero's Bow: The Hero's Shade does not appear in any way related to the Hero's Bow at all; Reusing assets in a video game is a common shortcut used to save time; This point of yours adds *nothing* and is only there to waste time grasping at straws. The Hero's Bow itself does not reference anything other than "a hero," and leaves no clues as to that hero's identity, so attributing it to the Hero of Time merely because he _may_ be featured in a post-mortem cameo or seven is a stretch at best; as you yourself say, there are *other* heroes. Moving on.
On Stalfos: I've heard that theory. I don't ascribe to it, because the shade is clearly _dead,_ and not a monster, as you rightly point out. I have no contention with you here, but it is no point for or against the theory, it's just an incorrect assumption by some fans.
On the Howling Stones: While they resemble the Gossip Stones, there is no evidence of any relation in the purpose of their creations. The howling stones also howl a few tunes from Wind Waker and Majora's Mask. There is no evidence that the songs from Wind Waker could not have been composed anyway, so there would have been no real reason for Link not to learn them, if he wanted. But your point was something along the lines of connecting the Howling Stones to the Gossip Stones due to the Sheikah creating them? I fail to follow the logic in assuming your assertion that they were not made by Impa of OoT is proof against the Hero of Time being the Hero's Shade. It seems like a barely-tangential point that is more a neat bit of trivia than anything else, if that. Much like your "Hero's Bow" evidence, it adds *nothing.* Moving on.
(Continued in the first reply)
On the Howling Songs: Again you add nothing, though you speak on a couple variations on the same theory regarding the songs the Hero of Time learns within the games he stars in, and assert that the Sheikah's population and howling stones have an important association that can prove or disprove the Hero of Time is or is not the Hero's Shade, which is an assumption on your part that remains unproven. Moving on.
On the Song of Healing: Your understanding of the Song of Healing is lacking, I see. The Song works only when the player (musician? singer?) 1. is able to interact with the regretful spirit in the first place (can't see the dead, how are you gonna know there's a regretful spirit around in the first place?), 2. is able to accept the burden of the regrets of the spirit so it can "live through" the person as a literal mask, (this is why the Hero wouldn't have been able to heal himself of his regrets) and 3. knows of the power of the song on its own. The Hero of Twilight learns none of the lore of these songs he howls, nor of their powers. Additionally, the Song of Healing might require a magical instrument in order to work in the first place; remember, the Hero of Time learned the song when he was carrying the Ocarina of Time, a magic instrument seemingly made of time crystals carved painstakingly in the shape of an instrument. As a final point on this, the Hero of Twilight is already healing the Hero's Shade through learning his techniques, so the Song of Healing wouldn't have worked in the first place.
On the "Wolf Connection" point: I have two rebuttals for this. First, if a person is excellent at fighting, one of the expressions used to convey that is that they fight "like a beast" or "with beastial ferocity." It doesn't _literally_ hint at a beastial connection, because it doesn't have to. Second, this feels like a nitpick on your end to me. To add on, the Hero of Time and the Hero of Twilight are _not_ the same person. Demise's curse specifies "those with the blood of the goddess and the spirit of the hero" not "When you two specifically live again, so, too, shall an incarnation of my hate". My personal take on it is that the Hero of Time is contacting the Hero of Twilight in a form the Hero of Twilight is able to connect with; he can turn into a wolf, too.
On the Hidden Skills: This point relies _far too much_ upon the assumption that the Hero of Time did not learn anything new in his life after Majora's Mask, nor find way to improve upon the techniques he already knew. This assumption is idiotic in nature. For another, more mechanical reason, Twilight Princess does not have a Magic Meter. Adding an additional mechanic for an optional technique (which is also quite literally the ultimate technique in the questline) to the game would be far too great a hassle for the developers when there was no need to include it in the first place. Therefore, they didn't bother to add one in. Of the two ways to use it, one of those ways _does_ resemble the classical Magic Spin from Ocarina of Time.
On the Hero's Recognition: Given the language used, and how early the Hero's Shade first appears, the Shade _does_ recognize the markings and the tunic, but the Hero of Twilight does not yet possess the Master Sword, nor has he conquered his first major trial. The "No True Scotsman" fallacy you're pointing out the Hero's Shade is using falls kinda flat when you understand that he _isn't_ using the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. He's calling Link pathetic _for a Triforce-chosen hero,_ not saying that he _isn't_ one. This point is moot. Moving on.
On the Hero's Shade in Hyrule Historia: Do you assume the final details of any game were the planned to be that way from the game's inception? The concept art of the Hero's Shade is an indication of the different stages of development the Shade went through as the game was refined through its creation. The creation process of any piece of art is rarely linear, and video games are hardly an exception. Link had something like 6 different designs before his age was finalized for Twilight Princess, and that was only what made the cut for the book! That point is rather ridiculous, as is using the book's neutral stance that neither confirms _nor denies_ the theory as evidence for it being untrue. Moving on.
On the Shade Not Remembered: 1. You make a statement here that reveals your bias: You assume that the core of the theory comes from Hyrule Historia, when the theory has been around since the release of Twilight Princess, YEARS before the release of HH. The core of the theory is the Hero's Shade's _dialogue choices._ His calling out of Link's weakness before the first trial, his teaching of techniques that "does not leave _our bloodline."_ His final words of, "Go, and do not falter, _My Child."_ Furthermore, there is no indication at what point Link arrived back in the Child timeline, but we do glimpse the three stones in their altar in the Temple of Time. Additionally, pulling from the quote you yourself used, "a legend *held dearly* by the royal family..." Now, those words, "held dearly" can mean different things, but among them is "guarded closely". In essence, he would have been regarded well by the upper class, but the lower class would not know why, and it is the lower class that he would have had to deal with more; he would be seen more as an errand boy for his betters than a hero, considering he skipped out on the implied Hyrule-Gerudo War that saw the power of the Gerudo broken and Ganondorf captured and tried in the Arbiter's Grounds.
On Power Levels: This is a very _very_ stupid point of contention. Any idiot would have the braincells to put together that the world of Hyrule does not operate on Dragon Ball rules. I would sooner cite _Fate_ than _Power Levels._
On the Hero of Time's future: This section has nothing to do with the argument, but I find the idea of Termina and Hyrule existing on the same plane rather preposterous. So you can consider me Team Malon, _or_ Team Zelda, though I personally find the child timeline Link x Zelda ship farfetched at best. Additionally, the Hyrule of Twilight Princess has moved from the Hyrule of Ocarina of Time. If we assume Death Mountain and the Temple of Time are constants, then Ordon Village is about where Lon-Lon Ranch was, and wouldn't you know it, it's *also* a ranch. It also puts the Arbiter's Grounds far to the north in the Gerudo Desert of Ocarina of Time, and puts Hyrule Castle in an inaccessible area of the map, as well as the Kokiri Forest. Additionally, the lettering system changed between games.
In conclusion: I find none of your arguments strong enough to disprove the theory, and a large percentage of them to be nitpicks or unrelated to the claims. Neat video, though. As you can see, I cared enough to write this enormous word-wall.
Have a great one!
Got a lot of cope in here. Good points about the bow and asset and insta debunking the rupee armor
@@DonutSwordsman It's not "cope" as you call it, I am presenting counter-arguments in the order they were presented in the video. I was very thorough, needing to pause after each section to record my thoughts, then rewriting them as needed and adding points where I had missed some, as well as fixing minor grammatical errors. The process took over an hour.
Not that I didn't enjoy it, as The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess is my favorite Legend of Zelda game.
@@andyknightwarden9746 Honestly made a lot of real good points and nailed many of the issues I had with this video. I also want to add onto the bow thing two points that help prove the bow in Twilight Princess to be the Hero of Time's. Link could have had it upgraded later in his life, and those upgrades would realistically have made it look different from how it appears in MM. Or the latter, which is that it could just simply be a whole different bow. It doesn't _have_ to be the same bow. It's called the Hero's Bow because it was wielded by the hero.
@@LoinkLoink Could have been SS Link's bow.
I assumed Link just died an old man.
It feels disingenuous to say you wont use the historia to support the shade being the hero of time, yet you use it argue your point against it. If youre using concept art from it to support your argument, then it should also be included how TP follows the child timeline where OoT link wouldnt have the mastersword in the first place.
That one detail discredits most of what youre saying.
The OoT link from the child timeline never wouldve pulled the master sword. He never wouldve gone on the hero of times journey as there was no reason to. The journey this link went on was in termina, not hyrule. I think its also worth noting as part of the "child link didnt pull the ms" idea that the shades sword looks strikingly like a longer kokiri sword, the only sword this link had when he left hyrule. I dont think its farfetched to say he couldve had the blade modified as he got older as a way to retain the last piece of home. You mention MM but never how it could relate to any of the prior sections.
I feel like you completely misunderstood the whole Hero's Recognition part.
Youre reading way too literally into it. The shade is saying link hasnt grown and matured into the hero he needs to be yet, not that he doesnt have the material requirements. The shade even says "You are already endowed with the strength required of the hero.". This sounds like hes directly referencing the triforce of courage.
Id also like to point out that in the scenes where you showed the shade speaking, link didnt have the master sword yet. I cant remember, but its possible his dialogue changes after you get the MS.
"You must use your courage to seek power...and find it you must. Only then will you become the hero for whom this world despairs.". This sounds like hes telling link (who hasnt pulled the master sword yet) to use the power of the triforce to obtain the sword because without it, he cant defeat ganon. "the hero for whom this world despairs".
Interesting video for sure, regardless.
the concept art wasn't made FOR the historia though. it was made for the game!
Yeah I feel like a lot of his points were reaching
I have alwase se this character as the same as the Blade brothers in Minish cap, not THE hero but very high skilled warriors that have the been heroic in some sense.
I have another "theorie" that might be ridiculous, the shade was THE hero (reincarnation after the hero of time) but instead of ganondorf he fought another evil force (Vaati ?) and instead of the master sword he used the four sword to vanquish it.
Hyrule Historia the book itself killed the Hero of Time because they believe he does not deserve to be remembered as a hero, which is why they also made up the Downfall Timeline to cover up the murder.
Pretty sure that wasn't the Historia's fault (the creation of the Downfall Timeline i mean) but Aonuma and company who couldn't find a justification aside from them wanting it so after making the mistake of ending the story of Ocarina of Time the way it ultimately did kickstarting 2 opposite timelines which had nothing to do with the all the pre Ocarina games released prior.
@javiervasquez625
Here's my personal theory. When Link first played the Song of Time in Majora's Mask, he didn't reset the three days but was sent back in time and "overwritten" his counterpart, creating a new timeline.
Meanwhile, Link and Tatl disappeared, and Majora destroyed Termina. Because Link disappeared, and the laws of the Triforce state that, A: When someone leaves Hyrule the Triforce will be scattered: said by the King of Red Lions in the Wind Waker after Zelda sent Link back to the Child Timeline. And B: The Triforce must exist in all timelines as a whole, explaining how Ganon, Zelda and Link had the Triforce in OOT and later TP their descendants in the later, then you can make the assumption that there is the Triforce of Power in Ganon, the Triforce of Wisdom in Zelda, and the Triforce of Courage somewhere in Hyrule for anyone to find.
Ganondorf would know and invade Hyrule, like the Sages in TP said. (Or at least in the ENG version they did, the original JAP versionmight said different.) And as we know, the Triforce and the Sacred Realm, were a Secret to all those but the Royal Family, the Guardian Spirits like the Deku Tree, and later Ganondorf.
Now, imagine if the Triforce of Courage was found by someone... imagine if Ganondorf and Zelda awakened their pieces of the Triforce. Imagine if a kingdom, united recently after a bloody Civil War, now knew that ultimate power was out there for the taking.
All hell would break loose. Between Ganondorf looking for it with the already obtained Triforce of Power, the Princess looking to keep it safe from Ganon with the Triforce of Wisdom, and the races unable to pick a side because now it's a race to find the Triforce of Courage before Ganondorf takes over, not only that but there are those who would want it for themselves, so it might as well be another war.
The Imprisoning Wars to be exact.
After that, the Gorons would be wiped out, standing with the Royal Family and against Ganondorf.
The Kokiri would be wiped out as well since it was a "Kokiri" that exposed Ganondorf in the first place, and with the Deku Tree still dead, they would be picked off as well.
The Zora would try to fight but stand no chance, possibly be frozen if this Ganondorf was like Twilight Princess and OOT. And the only Sheikah left was Impa. This explains why only Hylians and Zora are seen in the downfall timeline of ALTTP and the first 2 Zelda Games.
Ganondorf would eventually take the Triforce foe himself, but due to Zelda's plans, which would be the same as OOT, to seal him in the Sacred Realm, like she did in OOT, Ganondorf would be sealed away, by several new Hylian Sages to do so. (It is possible that in order to defeat him, the Sages created a new Master Sword and the Silver Arrows based upon the original Master Sword, which could explain not only the retcon of Zelda and Link in Skyward Sword forging it from the Goddess Sword but also explain the fake Master Swords in the Lost Woods, placed there to hinder theivesfrom finding the new one they made but also because they were the leftover or flawed attempts to remake it. This is pure theory and just me going into head cannon.)
Ganondorf would be sealed, and his army would be wiped out, but surprisingly, not by Hyrule. I recall something mentioning that Ganondorf killed his followers after obtaining the Triforce, and that would make sense since he was already betrayed once. By Nabooru, who could've been warned by Link, captured by Twinrova, or betrayed Ganon to go into hiding or even join Zelda and Hyrule against Ganondorf
To prevent another betrayal, Ganondorf, now Ganon, killed off the Gerudo, his own followers, and turned them into monsters, succumbed to Demise's influence in full. This explaining why no Gerudo exist in the Fallen Timeline either, except Twinrova, the only Gerudo spared due to them being Ganondorf's "Surogate Mothers"
Ganondorf would be sealed, and people, still wanting to take the Triforce for their own, would probably follow or find ways into the Sacred Realm, becoming monsters themselves. To prevent the outpouring monsters, the Sages would further seal up the Sacred Realm, where their descendants would maintain the seal, one of them being Zelda, or a descendant of hers, which overtime would result in the end of the Imprisoning Wars and an era of rebuilding.
The Master Sword would be placed in the Temple of Time or Lost Woods, guarded by the Spiritual Stones, now turned into Pendants. The kingdom would slowly recover but remained destroyed as a result. The Zora would unfreeze but maintain a distrust to Hylians after the war, and the kingdom would remain mostly Hylian and humans. The Gorons, Gerudo, and Kokiri are now more or less extinct.
Many years later, the events of ALTTP occur, and so on and so forth and then some. Personally, this makes a lot more sense and more meaningful to the Zelda Series than "Link died, Ganon won." But that's just my head-cannon on the downfall timeline.
My headcanon is that the “Downfall Timeline” could be the future of either the adult or child timeline.
The “Seven Wise Men” could be a mistelling of the sages - centuries later, as history becomes legend, details get changed and we’ll never know without some legendary anthropology work.
😂
@@ronstewart5945 Downfall being a third timeline instead of just getting tacked onto the Child or adult timeline was a mistake.
Honestly, I'm just not a fan of the Hero's Shade being the Hero of Time on a conceptual level. It goes against the themes of Majora's Mask. Link commits himself to help the people of Termina and soothe their problems even though it's not his world and they will forget that it ever happened in the next time loop. He does what he does because he's a good person, not because of any desire for recognition. So it would go against that message of he's suddenly upset that his heroic deeds were never acknowledged.
Ocarina & Majora & Twilight are Zelda games I'll always have fond memories of. And yeah I'm also guilty of the biased believe that the Hero's Shade is the Hero of Time. But this video certainly gives me food for thought.
I also never understood the Theory of Hero's Shade equals Hero of Time. But would like to point out that the scabbard's placement on the Hero's Shade could just be there due to him being able to place it there, while the Shorter Link could only place it on his back to prevent it from being dragged or damaged.
The "theory" stems from several incriminating pieces of evidence which suggest as much from the many songs specifically found in the 2 Hero of Time games, the Shade's mention of the Hero's clothes's "green" as if he once _wore_ them in the past and the appeareance of a Skullkid in the Sacred Grove making many fans theorize it's the *same* Skullkid from Majora's Mask asked by the Hero of Time to forever watch over the Master Sword until a worthy successor/descendant would come along in need of it. The fact that neither Aonuma or anyone at Nintendo has ever outright _denied_ the possibility of the Shade been the Hero of Time gives enough reason to fans to deduce that he's indeed the Link from Ocarina of Time after failing to pass on his teachings to his own descendants forcing him to linger still in the realm of the living as a wandering soul.
Good point! His height would effect things.
Given your evidence it’s still possible the Hero’s Shade is Link, just possibly not The Hero of Time. It’s possible he’s the Hero of the Minish.
The Zelda team made a half hearted attempt to connect the N64 and GameCube era games canonically, but it's clear they just don't care about details like this. So that's almost certainly the IRL reason behind these discrepancies
I think it may be the Link in Minish Cap! You have a great way of explaining things!
Very fun video, great in depth research. Subscribed! Also, I like to believe Talon extended Link a stay on his farm too. Similarities between the realms and such. So yea, team Malon 😊
Honestly I don’t think it makes a difference whether he is or isn’t the Shade (the hero of time that is) but I think it’s a rare case of Nintendo actually doing something dark for once. The Hero of Time in the child timeline is like the dark tragic version of his adult timeline counterpart.
In the adult timeline he’s mentioned and seen multiple times, but in the child timeline he is forgotten
It humanizes Link, he could save everyone else but not himself. He probably lived a normal life, but when he died his unfulfilled spirit lingered on.
I mean this is the timeline where his entire journey we played through never happened. The only event that actually occurred was the Deku Tree Dungeon.
His life was taken from him, Zelda only slightly recognizes him on a spiritual level, he gets sent off, saves a world that also won’t remember him, then comes back to a Hyrule who definitely does not remember him. He probably settles down with Malon, has a kid and dies.
But that deep seated feeling of pure regret just won’t leave. I mean he remembers everything that happened in Ocarina of time but to the world around him it just never happened. Did it occur to anyone that during the celebration scene at the end of OoT Link is no longer existent in that timeline? He was removed.
I don’t know, to me he is the shade because it’s narratively pleasing to me. Also the fact that Hyrule Historia even mentioned it off hand is a cheeky way of confirming it.
Also Nintendo aren’t obsessed with lore most discrepancies can be looked past with the simple real life fact that Nintendo was trying to connect twilight princess to the N64 games because fans wanted that at the time and they got it.
I personally think it’s way more of a stretch to believe all those songs were passed down to a random hero who doesn’t really have any personal attachment with. Either way interesting video, a bit weak with some of the points but great editing and com overall.
You raise extremely good arguments for the Hero's Shade not being Link. Honestly I believed in it because thematically it sounded awesome, like passing the torch on to the new hero. Points other youtubers made in favor of Link being the Hero's Shade sounded great... until you debunked them, now looking at it- I can see that you are correct. The Hero's Shade was never meant to be Link. I'm curious as to who it may be then?
but link left the master sword and didnt use it in majoras mask so he could just use this replica
I love the idea of challenging a theory just as much as the theory itself. This video is great and the Fi thing got me.😂
The Hero of Time doesn't get to keep the Master Sword. Therefore, the Hero's Shade wouldn't have it either. Great video, man!
Nice video bro, Twighlight Princess is one of my favorites!
Thank you so much! Gotta give TP some love it deserves ❤️❤️
Convincing debunk but then who IS the hero's shade???
Good question 👀
As for the wolf transformation. Twilight Link would have never even known that he could transform into a wolf without being in direct contact with the Twilight. It is said that the transformation is supposed to protect the hero from darkness. OOT Link simply never had to transform into Wolf form due to the fact that he never had contact with Twilight energy.
And as for why he knows, well, other people know too, before even Link knew it. Perhaps the knowledge could have already existed and was passed down to him. Or of course, The Hero's Shade could have been watching over Link, which is more likely.
While I like the idea of Hero's Spirit being OoT Link, this video has enough points against the theory (it has some really bad points like "we don't saw Link in OoT wearing/doing this" when Hero's Spirit is clearly someone who lived a long life and kept learning things or using discarded concept arts as proof).
And yes, Hyrule Historia is an official licenced 25th anniversary book, but it wasn't written by Nintendo and the book itself says it's the book writters interpretations based on stuff they experienced in the games + bits the devs shared, they didn't even consulted the game's writters.
Yeah, the visual points can definitely be seen as less strong than the other points. We mostly mean that in a way of, if the developers wanted it to be the Hero of Time, they would have made it pretty obvious. Of course, if potentially decades of the Hero of Times life played out after OOT/MM, it is highly likely that he would wear new clothes, learn new sword skills, etc. But the point is, it's a piece of media, so if the Shade was meant to be the HoT, he would be doing some iconic Hero of Time moves if they wanted us to know it's him.
Appreciate the comment! And yes, you are absolutely right about Historia.
Youre thinking of Hyrule Encyclopedia that has that disclaimer, and interviews with Dark Horse, who published and translated the books confirmed they were in direct talks with nintendo through the process
@@v-nus7718Aonuma's disclaimer does exist in the Hyrule Historia at the back of the book.
"Flipping through the pages of The History of Hyrule, you may even find a few inconsistencies."
I would like to point out when you're talking about the sheikah that you think that the Npcs don't see them often in OOT because they are practically extinct, however, I think they are doing fairly well, they have a secret village in twilight princess which is probably why they gave away the town as stated by an Npc in OOT and why they aren't seen often, since they are supposed to work in the shadows meaning they wouldn't be doing their job very well if so many of them were out in the open
I always took the Hero of Time to be a title rather than a person, and assumed the Shade was just another Hero who'd come before Link.
My personal theory goes in function of the "perfect" continuity between games. Link leaves Hyrule as Majora starts, after it's finished, he rides Epona through the forest, which we see at the beginning of OoS/OoA. The end of a linked game between those two point to the fact that Link sails a ship to return to Hyrule. While navigating in the middle of a storm, he's struck by lightning and gets trapped by the nightmares of the Wind Fish as we see in Link's Awakening. After that game, we see that even if the wind fish is awaken, it doesn't seem too eager to save Link from dying a cruel death from drowning in the ocean. So, to me, that's how link dies. Trying to return to his land which might have been destroyed by a returning Ganon that sunk it to the bottom of the ocean. To me, Wind Waker is the game made with the continuity in mind, while TP was the product of customer demand, not Nintendo's desire to continue the story (it may have triggered a creative freedom Renaissance around the whole franchise, so, that's why the lore is upside down and had to be saved by Breath of the Wild). Never believed in the timeline, or that it was able to branch out like that, much less the idea that the shade could be our beloved Link. BTW, I'm aware that my argument is stated in Hyrule Historia, but not in the same way or assuming the same outcome.
Loved the analysis!! It really does bring up questions about who exactly the shade really is 🤔
The hidden skill talk of Shade saying that Link isn't a hero due to his lack of skill being a discrepancy is a far reach. Remember that what he said may not he supposed to be taken as literal fact. He could be darting as not being a full fledged hero because he is still growing. It could be personal bias from Time because of his regrets and even insecurities. He could have very well meant that Link is still lacking in skill, not that he isn't the true hero. It could also have been taunting, so that Link is more eager his best when fighting the Shade to prove himself.
Fi is just trying to help, yes a bit rude but not uncommon.
The Hero's Shade is either some previous unknown incarnation of Link, or could very well be loosely connected to the Downfall Timeline. I'm not a Zelda lore expert by any means, but as an average Zelda fan, these are just my own guesses as to the identity of this mysterious individual. Lol.
twilight princess is on child timeline after majoras mask
The Hero’s Shade *is* the Hero of Time, this video is just grasping at straws and is easily debunked.
I was watching this with an open mind but I have to say there's a debunking evidence about the sword part. The reason why he willed the replica of the master sword and not have the shame type of sheath was because in the child timeline (where twilight princess is at) Link was never said to be a hero nor willed the master sword in that timeline. So he couldn't get the sword back even after he naturally growns up into an adult so he has to work with what he can get. Of course the whole "on his hip instead of his back" thing could fall the same argument. The kingdom provides him the standard knight armor and equipment inside of the chosen hero kind because they don't know or think of him as the hero of time.
(This is just my thoughts so feel free to agree or disagree, I'm just typing my thoughts about it. Not saying anything bad, just making sure we're all on the same level.)
I mean, tbf, Romani or malon... we're still technically talking about the same person here, so...
Does it actually matter? I win either way.
Outstanding contribution thank you for your words.
I have had a certain notion in mind for a very long time, and it aligns with this theory....
But I have never heard anyone talk about it.
I hope you'll forgive me for not detailing it here; I'd rather make my own video to present on it. Hahh just need to get off my backside and _do_ it is all.
Tingle
The height difference doesn't matter at all. Stalfos are all the same tall size regardless of who they once were. Furthermore, he shouldn't go to Link's height, because most of Link's enemies are bound to be much bigger, for example, Ganondorf himself. Hero's Shade was preparing Link to fight not only against multiple foes, but also, his main antagonist. Kinda poetic that one of the skills is literally mandatory for you to finish the game.
Even if he is not a Stalfos in specific, ghost monsters are known to be shaped weirdly. Just look at the poes in Arbiter's Grounds for example. His body could be warped due to his new form, or a fun theory from other fans is that he could even have absorbed some of the power within the fierce deity mask.
But yeah, even if the manga accepts the Hero's Shade to be Time, this soldier could have very well been a knight who were trained by the techniques the Hero of Time passed down. I just don't get why he would call Link his child without being related to him.
I believe the heros is look at his sword hilt it's a rectangle shape gold with cubes welded to the end like as if it was once smaller but modified as if link had it reforged maybe a third time to wield it as an adult and the shield may have had glass on it but it might've shattered
The real question is why Nintendo would put out a lore book that is unreliable. And why mention a “fan theory” if there is no credence to it?
Either the people involved with making the lore had little involvement with hyrule historia, or the creators never cared about the lore that much in the first place.
Nonoctoro on ZU made a good write up about Historia that relates to what you said.
zeldauniverse.net/forums/index.php?thread/205339-hyrule-historia-was-already-dead-here-s-why/
In short, all of the listed writers for Historia have never worked on a Zelda game, ever. Aonuma is stated to be a supervisor or editor in the book and on Google but he is on-record with an interview with Mashable that he had little involvement, and did not edit the information within the book: mashable.com/archive/legend-of-zelda-aonuma
"When we were exploring ways to make fans happy, we created the Hyrule Historia.That summarizes all the games and the story so far. I didn't edit it myself, but tons of people who worked on it were fans of the games themselves."
Note: Fans of the games. Not developers.
Why would Nintendo do this? Probably to appease fans who were whining for an "official" statement on the timeline for years. Aonuma is on record as well responding to questions about the accuracy of Historia/the Timeline within it, noting that it's simply the interpretation of the writers who wrote the book.
I don't think any of this really reflects on the Zelda team or their treatment of the lore. The book is pretty much fan fiction and nobody worth their salt in regards to the series contributed to it.
The existence of the book is probably a money-fueled decision from the business heads at Nintendo.
Oh dang! If there's anything that could cause an otherwise docile and awesome fandom (the Zelda community) to go nuts, it would be this! Haha! I digress, very well done video! I'll need to rewatch and consider your points as I personally am not convinced and still hold that Hero of Time and Hero Shade are one and the same, as there are a few things I'd push back on. You've brought up some interesting points though! Hence why I say I need to rewatch and process. Nonetheless, video quality is high!! :D
Here's what I want to know; Are you Team Malon or Team Romani?
Malon 100% :D @@hintonempire1178
You haven't been in this community long if you believe it to be docile.
@@hintonempire1178I ultimately don't think it matters considering how similar they are in appearance, but I think it makes more sense that the hero went back to Hyrule since he's back where he was in the forest at the end of MM. It could also be a possibility that he roamed the world/forest for the rest of his life if you like darker fan theories
@@hylianro Going back to Hyrule doesn't really mean anything though. For example, if he did move to Termina, it's perfectly normal to go back to Hyrule first and tie up his loose ends and get his stuff.
Link gives as much consent to Romani in that scene as he does to marrying Ruto... This is a big stretch.
Also Cremia's dialogue is suspicious as hell. That's not how adulthood works...
My guy! I totally believe you, and I myself have been putting together some points. Let me get them together and I will show you.
Concept art are concepts, some taken, some considered wrong !
Thank you so much for this, I really don’t like this theory at ALL, and I wouldn’t like for my favourite link to end up like this
You are correct
isnt the most likely link to be heroes shade the one who died causing the fallen timeline?
even if its an alternate timeline to TPP, it makes more sense, considering its the one link who canonically dies early
I feel like a lot of this can make sense when you take into consideration the idea that it could be the Hero of Time not as he appears in Ocarina of Time, but as he later becomes when growing older naturally and as a result of his supernatural transformation. It's reasonable to conclude that after entering into the new Child Timeline to live out the childhood that was robbed from him in the Adult Timeline, he would go on to become acquainted with Zelda once again to warn her of the threat of Ganondorf so that she may in turn warn her father. After Ganondorf is dealt with, Link might have been praised as a hero for bringing Ganondorf's true intentions to light and consequentially saving the entire kingdom, and so could have been taken in by the royal family. It is then that he could have received a more formal education as well as being trained more properly to be a knight.
Because Link in this timeline is not going on a divinely appointed mission to slay evil, he may not have seen any need to keep the Master Sword and could have never retrieved it to begin with, and could have settled for a replica that feels familiar enough to wield. His more formal training to be a knight of Hyrule could also explain why he doesn't holster his sword on his back, and his more formal education could explain his speech mannerisms. Being a proper knight would also explain why he wears the armor he does rather than the Hero's tunic, and he could even have gone on to obtain new gear such as the Hero's Bow.
We do not know that the Hero of Time does not have connections to wolves as the Hero of Twilight does. There's no wolf plot points in Ocarina of Time or Majora's mask to tie him to wolves, but that doesn't mean nothing happened in the time after these games as he matured into an adult, and he very well may have awakened his Golden Wolf form during his time as an adult later on in his lifetime. Additionally, the Hero of Twilight's connection to wolves is directly through the Triforce of Courage, so the Hero's Shade having a similar form would point towards him also having a connection to the Triforce of Courage as well, something we have only ever known the Link's of each age to have. The most recent Link before the Hero of Twilight we know about in the Child Timeline is the Hero of Time.
While we do know that other people also knew the songs from OoT, Link and Sheik are the only ones we know to know them all, and we don't have any confirmation that Sheik who is Zelda in disguise learned them all from the same person, only that he (she) learned them to pass on to Link. The fact that this was needed and was deemed so important is a strong indicator that individual people knowing all of the songs is very rare, and the additional songs the Hero of Time never learned in the games could simply have been learned by him later in life in the Child Timeline. The stones being Sheikah Stones also points towards the Hero of Time due to his connections to the Royal Family and Impa, which in turn makes him a firm ally of the Sheika clan of his own time period. It could be that at some point he awakened his Golden Wolf form somehow, and after a divine premonition that he would one day have need to pass on what he knows to another hero could have gotten the assistance of the Sheikah tribe to place the howling stones around Hyrule to be used by this hero of prophecy one day.
We also do not know that the Hero of Time never used the techniques taught by the Hero's Shade to the Hero of Twilight. He states that they are long forgotten due to not leaving his (or "our" when speaking to the Hero of Twilight) bloodline, but he himself is a long forgotten specter of a hero from an age long past. It could very well be that the Hero of Time invented these techniques during his adult life later on into his life in the Child Timeline well after the events of Majora's Mask, and went on to teach them to his children, who then went on to teach them to their children, and so forth. I'd speculate that eventually in time the techniques were forgotten due to never leaving their bloodline until finally the Hero of Time was able to pass on the knowledge of them to his distant descendent to make use of during his journey when there was nobody else left to teach them to him. As for him not teaching the skills he used to defeat Ganondorf, all of those skills were either reliant on equipment unavailable to the Hero of Twilight or were already known by him. The only thing that might be an exception is the Magic Slash, but we don't know that even the Hero of Time continued to have access to magic after the events of Majora's Mask, and the slash taught to the Hero of Twilight could very well be a result of the Hero of Time's training to make up for what was lost. Additionally, I think whether he lost his life in battle or not is rather irrelevant to his identity. Whether his skills were enough to keep him alive is entirely besides the point of his identity, as he'd already have completed his divine mission as the Hero of Time by then, and could have died to something outside of his control such as an arrow through his eye or something similar during a time of war. It wouldn't mean that his newfound skill is subpar to the skill of the hero, and his own comments about the skills insist the opposite; that they are critical for the Hero of Twilight to rise to the challenge ahead of him.
The matter of him being so tall isn't really all that noteworthy considering that could simply be part of the form he took after his supernatural transformation into... Whatever he is as the Hero's Shade. Ghost, Zombie, whatever. It's not that he has control over how tall he is, he just is that tall while in this form and this is the only form he can take on account of being long dead.
Regarding him carrying his regrets into his existence as the Shade, remember that the Hero's Shade also knows the Song of Healing just as the Hero of Time did. It could be that the song is unable to heal the regrets of the one performing it, and so it was only by doing the thing he felt such a great need to accomplish that he was finally able to find peace. The thing in question being that he was tasked with the burden of passing on his life lessons to the next hero after him, which happens to have not been his own child as he may have expected but someone much further down the bloodline into the future. In teaching his knowledge to the Hero of Twilight, this responsibility is no longer his to bear as the torch has finally been passed from one hero to the next.
The Hero's shade's comments about the Hero of Twilight needing to become the hero through his taught skills could be interpreted in another way from how they are interpreted in this video. It isn't that the shade isn't recognizing the Hero of Twilight as the true hero, it's that he's acknowledging him as the chosen one but imparting him with critical knowledge he needs to rise to the challenge at hand. Notice the present tense that is used by the shade's dialogue; he's not talking about this being knowledge needed by the hero in general, but rather that the hero of the present era needs. The threat the Hero of Twilight faces is even greater than the threat the Hero of Time once faced, and so it makes sense that a version of the Hero of Time much greater in skill than he was at the time of his original defeating of Ganondorf would be his teacher, passing down skills even greater than the ones he knew back then to handle this much more dire threat Ganondorf now represents.
It's not unreasonable to assume Link would have grown and developed after his appearances in OOT/MM-- that much is a given.
However, the biggest problem is that Nintendo/Zelda team did not make an effort in-game to convey in-game that this is, in fact, the Hero of Time. You can make all sorts of personal theories and headcanon for how the Hero of Time could slot nicely into this appearance as the Shade, but ultimately, it's reaching.
It's too obvious to us that Nintendo left it intentionally vague -- outside of him obviously never stating he's the Hero of Time, saying anything more concretely about his mortal life, or possessing any distinct visual traits that he is such, there's even things like the Shades scabbard omitting the triforce make that should be there, among other things that simply are too conveniently not mentioned or missing.
The Hyrule Historia came many years after Twilight Princess, and while it attempts to claim the Shade as the HoT, it contradicts itself mere pages earlier, stating it as merely fan theory. We can also observe that the concept art that was included in the book never hinted at the Shade being the HoT, even providing potential designs for a samurai or female version of the Shade.
To us, it's too obvious that the developers never went in with the intention of making this the HoT, and on top of that, the Historia's claim of it being so is refuted by the many contradictions within the book itself, and the developers never stating in interviews that the Shade is the HoT, nor never confirming the canonicty of Historia.
@@ratedn I never mentioned anything about the Hyrule Historia or developer intentions, only that which appears in the games themselves.
Gotcha, was just adding it as a point incase that was to be brought up. Point stands that while there are ways to attempt to connect the two characters, the ultimate proof in-game is that the developers never made the conscious effort to connect the two.
@@ratedn Just because there wasn't a conscious effort at the time doesn't make it canon either way though. Concept art also isn't canon. All we really have to work with in sorting out whether he is or isn't is the in-game evidence, and considering things such as the implication in OoT that it's rare for individuals to know all of the songs and the only other wolf transformation that appears being a direct connection to the Triforce of Courage, the in-game evidence does strongly point towards the possibility that he could be the Hero of Time as he's the only hero we know about who fits the description of being a hero who knew all the songs and had a direct connection to the Triforce of Courage, even if the developers themselves didn't realize the connection at the time.
Conversely, evidence to debunk the idea that he could be the Hero of Time is largely just founded on the fact that we don't know for sure and not that he can't be, and there are explanations to make sense of many of these evidence points as outlined in my original comment. It seems to me that there's a lot of evidence that points towards him being the HoT as a real possibility even if not confirmed, and nothing that outright disproves the notion.
Concept art isn't canon to the game in its final form, but it shows that in production of the game itself, there was never a direct intention for this to be the Hero of Time. That alone should STRONGLY impact the thought of it potentially being retroactively Canon in any way.
Not to mention, it's a bit silly to say that "debunking this largely relies on the fact we simply don't know." Uhh, yeah? If there's more evidence against a theory than for a theory, it is liable to be debunked.
As for the songs, wolf form, etc, we laid out our theory and explanation in full within the video. It's provable with information found in the games that it's neither impossible nor improbable for a bloodline descendant of the Hero of Time to possess the traits that the Shade does, and it simply makes way more sense when you consider both the design discrepancies and the lore discrepancies.
It would be an insult to the writing of the Zelda games to simply hand-wave away the fact that the Shade is multiple feet taller than the Hero of Time, doesn't possess any of the unique moves he had, doesn't mention anything about the fact he saved the world from the greatest evil of his time, and how TP Link is up against the same foe, His scabbard conveniently doesn't have the Triforce mark where it would have been on OOT Links scabbard, etc.
Also, the fact that if he was the HoT, he died to what may be a blow to the head/eye from a random nobody. If you can't imagine Ganondorf dying to a nobody, then his superior, the Hero of Time, shouldn't either. And it seems implied that the Shade died some sort of tragic death in battle. The Hero of Time isn't immortal, but it would be bad writing and laughable if he died to what amounts to a random enemy, just because he was "old" or "not in his prime." This dude defeated his worlds version of Satan, while he was essentially a Child in an Adults body.
Believing he is the Hero of Time seems based on personal preference rather than any concrete lore, and that's perfectly fine. Same as how we believe it isn't him.
At the end of the day, it is a theory on both sides as it was never attempted to be answered by the developers. Respect for only using info from the games btw. 🫡
As for him accepting life as the hero... Also a far reach, for just because he is aware, does not mean that others are also aware by default. That's a fallacy.
Well-done video!
I’ve been seeing people say why the shade didn’t mention Navi… but now your theory might connect some dots with that because like you said maybe it wasn’t the link we think it is. Hmmmmm
Good solid theory
i will point something out. when looking up how old "adult link" is in OOT, it is stated he is 17 years old. he's not really an adult, not yet. we know he goes back in time to live out his child hood. its just a theory here but the heroes shade being a lot taller that twilight could be he actually grew to adulthood and hit another growth spurt later in life. and not that's its gospel or anything but Nintendo did say themselves that the hero's shade was the hero of time :shrug: just thought I would share that possibility here. i think major link has set up a great fan series that makes for a good lead up to him becoming that. its all fan content, but fr fr I hope no one is getting bent out of shape over either opinion
It was literally confirmed that he is the Hero of Time. Y'all are wild.
It's never actually been “confirmed” outside of the Hyrule Historia and Zelda Encyclopedia. We even touch on contradictions that the book makes in regards to the theory it proposes... So for anyone to say it's undoubtedly confirmed with no room for discussion is simply not true. The book itself can't even decide if it wants to call it a fact or not lol.
@ratedn while obviously not canon, the Twilight Princess manga is written in a way that portrays the Hero's Shade as the Hero of Time, and Nintendo never shot that down. Surely that's got to count for something.
@@mercury2157 Yes, but Akira Himekawa (the manga authors) doesn't even play the games, Nintendo only share some story summaries and character artworks and give them free reign to go wild with their own interpretations.
Wait, are Cremia and Romani real people? I've always been under the impression Majora's Mask didn't really happen. Not in a literal sense anyways.
I think of it like Link's Awakening.
Solid video, very much enjoyed the presentation.
While this is a thorough video and you really put a lot of work in it. Others have added to contradict the contradiction of the Hero Shade being the Hero of Time. In terms of Aesthetic, Lore, the hidden skills and Historia discrepancies. For me I wanted to bring up what others haven't. Aesthetically both the Shade and Link shuffle their feet and hold their weapons in a similar stance. But I'm glad you get that the shade isn't a Stalfos.
Regarding Romani and Cremia. I do believe they contributed to Link ending up with Malon. Given their interactions. Link might go through displacency. What he remembers experiencing from them will be put onto Malon on top of being a home after his adventures. Thus starting a bloodline that goes to Twilight Link. It would explain him growing up among farmers, why he has a well bred Epona from the beginning which is identical to Time Link's horse , knows her song which was a family song between a mother and daughter, and Epona's trusted being Link. Termina and whether Link can go back there or not is another hive of bees I don't feel like poking.
Is The Hero's Shade is the spirit of The Hero of Time, so is the Hero's Shade the Spirit of Ocarina of Time Link?
No! Let me explain why!
The fatal flaw of this theory is that there is no evidence to support this Theory. You can say that Nintendo confirmed this theory all you want, but Word of God has its limits in what its canon or not. It's important to keep in mind that just because someone wrote a character or setting, doesn't mean they decided on a correct answer to every question that could possibly be asked about that character or setting. The statement from the Creator of X-Franchise will fall flat becaus if they wanted a certain fact to be canon, they should have included it in the work to begin with. Such as the Sexuality, the Gender Identity, the Race, and the Relationships of a character should be include in their work in the first place to be confrimed be canon, and not just make a statement.
Is Rainbow Dash and Applejack from My Little Pony are in a relationship and they have feelings for each others? No! because it was never show during the show, or comic, or novel. Is Rivet from Ratcher and Clank actually a lesbian? We do not know because it was never show. Can Whiterbeard and King Ghidorah destroy a planet? We do not know because it was never show. Can Frieza destroy a planet? Yes because he show three time that he can destroy a planet. Statements are the kind of sentences that are either true or false. As such it is important to actually shows evidence to back up or refute arguments. Evidence is important because it shows the person what you mean and why you are right.
This is the whole argument of Show, Don't Tell!
So if the Creator of X-Franchise wanted a certain fact to be canon from character or story from feasts, sexuality, relationships, or pretty much anything, they should have included it in the work to begin with. No amount of statements will convince people specially met that something it's canon unless, they included it in the work to begin with.
In Other Word! Show, Don't Tell!
So if Nintendo really, really wanted something to be canon like the Hero's Shade be the Spirit of the Hero of Time. They should have included it in Game Lore in the first place. This includes other theories from The hero of Twilight be the child of Malon and the Hero of Time. From Link and Zelda be in a Romantic Relationship. From the Whole Timeline. So something is 100% canon when it's included in the work in the first place. Even if Nintendo decides to remaster Twilight Princess to modify it to "fit" this theory. It would be too late. The only way they could fit it. It's to make the current Twilight Princess non-canon and make a completely new one.
So, I just debunked the The Hero's Shade is the spirit of The Hero of Time with Logic.
I have never understood why everyone thinks he’s the Hero of Time. I haven’t seen any actual solid evidence that it may be. Please correct me if I’m showing incompetence, and show me a reliable source.
I think model reuse is a weak argument. Devs are clearly lazy in a couple of those instances. I wish they were as detailed as a souls game, but something like the phantom hourglass bow is clearly lazyness
This is... Almost everything I wanted for a Zelda theory.
I *hate* the theory that the Hero's Shade is OoT Link. I feel the way it's treated shows so many issues with the Zelda theorist community.
Why? Because I have never, *ever* heard a proper explanation for evidence on the theory. It's always either a couple of small, circumstantial bits like "oh, he's left handed and the songs are mostly ones he knew", circular logic like the lack of a tunic being evidence because his tunic went to TP Link, or its pure speculation with absolutely no support like him gaining the wolf form and armour later in life. Well, until Hyrule Historia came out, where even when people are saying Hyrule Historia isn't evidence, their evidence for this theory is that Hyrule Historia says it's true.
And while this video doesn't give that missing evidence I wanted (so I could debate that), I'm so glad someone actually made a video acknowledging and debunking the theory.
The theory has absolutely no support beyond blind faith in Hyrule Historia. It's incredibly easy to argue against simply because of that lack of evidence. "It's called the Hero's Shade, so it has to be Link." No, it doesn't. There are many references to other, unknown heroes in the history of Hyrule that are not Link. The Hero's Bow in Majora's Mask must have belonged to a hero that came before the Hero of Time. The Hero's Bow in Wind Waker doesn't look like the Fairy Bow the Hero of Time used, even if we ignore the name change. The Hero's Bow in Twilight Princess doesn't resemble the Hero's Bow from Majora's Mask or the Fairy Bow from Ocarina of Time. There's the Hero of Men in the backstory of Minish Cap. The Hero's Shield in Wind Waker doesn't really look like the Hylian Shield in Ocarina of Time. Even the Hero's Tunic in Twilight Princess looks drastically different from the Kokiri Tunic in Ocarina of Time, suggesting that it's not even the actual tunic the Hero of Time wore. In Wind Waker, Orca gives Link the Hero's Sword, which is not the Kokiri Sword (looks very different) and definitely not the Master Sword. And that's just the stuff that's easy to find. So being the "Hero's Shade" is meaningless in terms of identity. Being left-handed is really weak evidence. The lack of a tunic is circular logic. Even the whole theory of him being the Hero of Twilight's ancestor isn't really evidence, being circular logic with this very theory. Too many times I've heard people say the evidence the Hero's Shade is the Hero of Time is that he refers to the Hero of Twilight as "son", only for the evidence for the Hero of Twilight being the descendant of the Hero of Time being that the Hero's Shade refers to him as "son". The potential relationship between the Hero's Shade and the Hero of Twilight is not evidence of the Hero's Shade being the Hero of Time, as there is no evidence the Hero of Time is the ancestor of the Hero of Twilight without already assuming the Hero's Shade is the Hero of Time. The Hero's Shade being the Hero of Twilight's ancestor is a theory I actually believe, it's practically confirmed in the original Japanese text, but there's no suggestion there that he's the Hero of Time.
All in all, I'm glad these issues are finally being acknowledged, and not just by random, unknown people on forums, but by someone with more than 3 thousand subscribers in a video with 15 thousand views. It's great to finally have someone with any influence in the community do more than just make up fanfics about how the theory could work.
I subscribed when Fi told me 😂
I'd like to point out, in the Twilight Princess Manga, it's revealed that the shade is the Hero of Time. That being said, it's possible that the writer of the manga, who made it years after the game came out, was following the fan theories... But to me, it just makes the most sense.
But, I do have one potential counter-argument I'd like to offer, regarding the possibility of the Shade being the Hero of Time even outside the Manga. This isn't to debunk your claims; I only feel it is worth mentioning
First, I could overlook the Hero's Shade being taller than he was as the Hero of Time; we've seen how big the Stalfos are in Ocarina of Time - they are MUCH taller than LInk. You did point out that the Shade still has a body, even if it's spectral, so he's clearly not a 'true' Stalfos even if he was supposed to resemble one. But there's one thing you didn't mention. We know Link still had the Triforce of Courage even after Ganondorf was defeated in the adult timeline, as Ganondorf himself still had the Triforce of Power - we see he has it in Wind Waker too; it never left him in the adult timeline.
Why this is significant here is that Ganondorf also has the Triforce of Power in the Child Timeline, where Twilight Princess takes place. It protected him from being executed by the Sages at the Arbiter's Grounds, and he lived on in spirit form in the Twilight Realm, until he was able to rebuild his body and return to life. Why do I bring this up? OoT Link had the Triforce of Courage at the end of the game; he was sent back through time by Zelda, but we never saw the Triforce leave him. What if, at the time of OoT Link's death, if he *was* about to be turned into a Stalfos... The Triforce of Courage protected him, and allowed him to live on in spirit form just as the ToP did for Ganondorf?
While this could also be debunked by suggesting it could have left him at the time of his death, maybe it did, but only after protecting him, and it relocated to his successor - just like the Triforce of Wisdom did, by leaving Zelda in OoT but inherited by her descendant in Twilight Princess. Could OoT's hero continuing 'living on' in spirit form, bound to the world by an unfulfilled sense of duty or purpose, as many spirits are believed to be?
This next part is just my own take on the song discrepancies, and a personal theory - not an argument. First, I want to point out not 'all' of the songs OoT Link knew were taught to him. There was one that wasn't known by anyone else - at the time, because the people who wrote it were already dead. The Sun's Song, written by the Composer Brothers.
As for the Song of Healing, perhaps he couldn't use it on himself because he already died. The song heals troubled spirits and evil magic, but maybe those who have taken on spirit form cannot use it to heal themselves. Also even if he could, it's officially stated that it turns those regrets and woes into a Mask; if he used it on himself and it DID work, it wouldn't really do him any good.
For why he appears as a Golden Wolf, I think this once again comes back to the Triforce; in the Manga, the Hero's Shade lives in the Twilight Realm as the Golden Wolf, and a companion to Midna - until Zant's uprising. By this point, the Hero of Twilight might not have received the Triforce of Courage yet because its previous bearer still carried it - it's confirmed that the Triforce of Courage is what protected Link from the Twilight, turning him into a beast instead of a spirit or a monster. But, I admit this is a loose theory and probably not accurate, and it contradicts the suggestion I made earlier about the Triforce protecting the Hero of Time, because there's no real explanation as to how he would've ended up in the Twilight Realm after that happened, nor does it explain exactly 'when' the ToC moved from OoT Link to TP Link.
I want to politely let you know of a few corrections of some points that you brought up.
First, you mentioned that the Triforce never left Link in the Adult timeline. This is not true. In Wind Waker, the King of Red Lions states:
"That sacred piece is known as the Triforce of Courage. When the Hero of Time was called to embark on another journey and left the land of Hyrule, he was separated from the elements that made him a hero. It is said that at that time, the Triforce of Courage was split into eight shards and hidden throughout the land."
When Link left the Adult Timeline, he left the Triforce behind as well. All we see at the end of OoT is the SYMBOL of the Triforce on his hand. The symbol can stay on the hand even after the Triforce is no longer within you. For proof of this, go to the final battle of WW and zoom in on Ganondorf's hand or Zelda's hand when Link stabs Dorf in the head. You will see the Triforce symbol is still there despite having left his body.
Second, The Sun's Song is something that even the guards of Kakariko are aware exists.
Third, Link already had the Song of Healing used on him when he removed the Deku form from himself. Also, the song can work on both the living and the dead. For example, Pamela's father is still living when it is used on him. Mikau and Darunia are both already dead. However, there are some spirits who can resist it, which implies that consent is involved in the song's effectiveness.
As for the manga, I don't think you have to worry about it at all since it is not canon.
@hintonempire1178 Fair points; i did not remember that the Triforce DID leave Link when he was sent back in time... It seems there were some gaps in my knowledge after all, as I thought it would have traveled still in his possession. Though, I suppose then I introduced a gap in my own explanation, because if that were the case would it even still exist in the adult timeline if he still had it. Yeah, that oversight is on me...
There's only one inconsistency left though... You're right about the Goron (WAS his name Darunia?? I thought that was the one in OoT) was dead, but wasn't Mikau still alive when Link played the song of healing for him? On the brink of death, certainly, but not actually dead yet.
It's been a long time since I played Majora's Mask; I could possibly be misremembering.
@@Volcanoran3 I think it is fair to say he was on the brink of death but not dead yet.
Manga's its own continuity and while it DOES have the Hero's Shade as the Hero of Time, it also says he's NOT TP Link's blood ancestor which seems very weird. I thought that was a translation error but someone in a shin a comments section said that it got checked.
This is link stop. One if the different time lines.
"Adult." Link in OOT is 18 years old. He still had years to grow
17 actually, and we don't know how Hylian biology works to know if he'll grow up more.
Or at least not that more lol
@Mari_Izu considering he's even taller in twilight princess I think he was still growing
I also don't agree that The Hero's Shade is Time Link. My theory is that the Shade is the Spirit of the Hero that resides within Link and all the other Links.
Okay except he confirms TP Link related to him, a blood descendant and that he himself was a former hero who knows the sword and references he wore a similar green tunic.
The hero of time wouldnt have the master sword, he put it back after returning to his time.
It is implied that majora mask link has regrets of not being the hero as ganondorf was stopped before he could enact his evils.
-But perhaps it’s possible he brought back/kept the scabbard that held the ms.
-I can’t recall anywhere in MM how/where that is implied? I don’t think that is correct at all, and fine with as long as ganon was prevented and halted - and more likely/in character of link would be his regret that he couldn’t do more to prevent the extent of damage ganon and his gerudo followers had still done battling until he was defeated and captured. The in game quote is accurate - not the little bit written in HH book which has a few other things definitely inaccurate.
Hero of Time and Hero Shade are the same?
There's only one thing tho that 100% is a tell tell that this IS Link from OOT. If the Heroes Shade isn't the OOT Link then why is he a lefty? Left handed swordsmen aren't exactly common and we all know Link is by nature a lefty.
Oot adult link doesn’t have the master sword when he is a child and he turns back into a child before majoras mask and after so of course it would look different and it is also confirmed by developers that twilight princess is 100 years after oot when he talks about his regrets I get that he had the ocarina of time but that doesn’t make him not have regrets BOOM you just got debunked by a young teen
i just like the theory ngl
like, whats the problem in thinking it ?
Nothing at all 👍
We are just providing an alternative viewpoint. 🫡
@@ratedn sure !
+1 sub
❤️
Who voiced fi?
We use the website ElevenLabs for Fi's voice. We use a custom trained AI voice model based directly off of her speech sounds from Skyward Sword. 🫡
@@ratedn ty very much for answering😍
Asking people to subscribe is a great way to get people to do so.
Showing your sodding analytics is an even better way to do the opposite
Bro is canceling a video game character
😂
I made it through the video because you sound like a middle aged old man telling lore, rather than an annoying know-it-all teenager.
What if the shade is twilight princesses links father? Or himself in a time loop.
About the height, remember he went back being a kid, so that time he had proper nutrition to grow properly to adulthood, and not staying in a room for 7 years without proper nutrition.
The master sword was returned to the temple of time, so Hero's Shade's sword isn't the master sword.
And well, no matter how skilled he is, he ain't beating a whole army of soldiers all by himself.
The first bit is just a bit too head-canon for our taste. And the point was mostly about his Scabbard, and how many thought they matched but there’s in fact differences. But in that note: if evil should rise again, then it would make sense for Link to take up the Master Sword once more as that’s what tends to happen in the lore. I’ll give you that we haven’t seen Ocarina Link himself taking on armies, but other Links like BotW/TotK have taken down armies of Lynels and other monsters by himself. Link tends to be the most skilled warrior in all the games, or becomes such at some point in his journey. I find it harder to believe that Link was taken out in battle by a random unnamed soldier or bokoblin for example, especially after MM where we see Link is far more agile and acrobatic, is skilled, and powerful in his own right. Just doesn’t make a lot of sense
@@ratedn The nutrition explanation makes perfect sense in my opinion, and well, Hero's Shade being the Hero of Time obviously seems to be the developers intention, he even does the little side steps just like the Hero of Time does!
Remember he wouldn't have any items he normally uses, and I think he would die in battle on the front lines, getting "ganked" by some soldiers, not on a duel, even the most skilled warriors aren't able to take a bunch of enemies(other skilled human swordsmen) at once, this also feels more grounded and realistic, the Hero of Time managing to have offspring before dying young(again, maybe if not on the front lines, a disease is also an option after getting those battle scars of course). There's also a theory that Dark Link defeated him, which I find really cool.
And well I think comparing the appearance of the bow and the hidden skills is a bit of a stretch taken too literally, remember the N64 had limitations and the developers wouldn't limit themselves with a next game on a brand new hardware, of course they would make Hyrule a lot bigger, more awesome moves for Link, let the artists imagination flow for the weapon designs and stuff like that. Nintendo talked about that on an interview if I'm not mistaken, they have the "gameplay first" mentality and don't care much about much consistency. They might have thought about the Hero's Shade being the Hero of Time after the initial concepts and ideas for him, and eventually settled with the Hero of Time idea(every idea in every game changes during development, calling that out is kind of an argument that takes things too literally, concept art is not the final intended product).
The night time soundtrack for Twilight Princess uses Malon's singing, I like to think that's s Malon's(Hero of Time's SO) spirit calling for her husband back and/or blessing the Hero of Time with protection! Aonuma said Twilight Princess takes place a hundred or so years after Ocarina/Majora's Mask, so the Hero of Time's spirit coming back on Hyrule's worst crisis yet also makes sense.
Maybe the Hero's Shade regret comes from not being able to be recognized for the things he has done as an adult during Ocarina, because everything the royal family really knows about him is that he only called out on Ganondorf's betrayal and was right about it, not for actually defeating him and etc.
I've never been 100% convinced that the hero's shade is actually the hero of time. More likely he was a previous hero of hyrule perhaps of the same lineage as the Hero but doesn't have to be the hero of time.
Well he knows the songs from Ocarina but the sword skills are from Wind Waker which in universe could've been a time skip.