this video seals the deal regarding Dr Mikes intellect to me. one of the keys to intellect is the ability to pivot out of your own perspective to view reality from completely new angles. that’s where the largest gains in insight are made imho. Dr Mike has great form in his intellect. sincere applause sir
Thank you for this comment. You just made me realize I haven't been able to put myself in the other parties place truly on topics I disagree with a lot. If I want to be smarter I have to be able to do this, and that's what irks me.
You probably haven’t watched his debate with Vegan Gains then. Mike makes ridiculously stupid arguments such as factory farmed animals enjoy their life.
I love this guy.. most refreshing muscle youtuber in years. I've been a vegan and philosophy teacher for years but I feel like this is one of the most competent, comprehensive, and honest analyses of this issue (from across the aisle) that I've ever heard. Would love to see Mike engage with some other more deliberate thinkers on this issue, other than vegan gains. He's funny and everything but I'm not sure he's the most disciplined mind to go up against Mike on this topic.
Since I primarily know you as a fitness and health channel, I thought this was gonna be a look into the mechanics of veganism from a nutritional standpoint, the rundown through all the philosophical points of veganism was an extremely pleasant surprise and watching you try to give the most logical, unbiased, and precise interpretations of each point was so informative and helpful. This is probably the best video I’ve seen on this topic and you got me thinking about a lot of things, keep making quality content brother 💪🏽
Props to you for making this video. I've hardly seen any other non-vegan fitness TH-cam speak about veganism, so its great to hear this. Especially when talking about ethics as well
veganism is not better then going pure carnivore. veganism is not more ethical not better for the environment and not healthier then pure carnivore eating pastured animals NOT factory farming. veganism is only better then the standard American diet short term.
@@mjordan5382 Where are you getting your information? I won't even go into why choosing not to pay for a food item where an animal is killed just for existing is more ethical than eating animal products. It's easy to claim something is ethical when at the end of it you get a steak and the animal gets killed. Environmentally animal products are in another league of destruction. Animal agriculture is the leading cause of water pollution, including 20% of fresh water streams in the US which people, especially native populations, depend on (EPA). In addition, 75% of land used for crops is grown for animals (equivalent size of USA, China, Australia, and Europe combined). Animal agriculture crops is the leading cause for the destruction of the Amazon rainforest. Poore & Nemecek (2018) do conclusive research on the topic and find that switching to a vegan diet is 'the biggest way to reduce one's impact on the environment.' Your statements about health are a little confusing, and I don't want to comment on them before I understand what you are saying. What do you mean veganism is better than the SAD only in short term? I hope you don't think cutting out 4 different types of animal, milk, and eggs is some other league of dieting. The healthiest people in the world who live in Blue Zone groups follow predominantly plant-based lifestyle with little to no meat. Where exactly are you getting your information? You are free to form whatever conclusions about veganism you wish, but at least recognize that they have to be based on something other than what you feel or hope is true.
@@thepictureispavement Metabolic Evaluation of the Dietary Guidelines' Ounce Equivalents of Protein Food Sources in Young Adults: A Randomized Controlled Trial - PubMed pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33693735/ Vegan dietary pattern for the primary and secondary prevention of cardiovascular diseases - PubMed pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33629376/ Dietary fibre for the prevention of colorectal adenomas and carcinomas - PubMed pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12076480/ Veganism, vegetarianism, bone mineral density, and fracture risk: a systematic review and meta-analysis - PubMed pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30376075/
Hi Mike. I know us vegans can be very emotional on this topic, but just wanted to say thanks for speaking about this topic in such an intelligent and open minded way on your channel. Much love
This was so interesting to listen to! It aligns with a lot of the mental pathways I have explored as I think about this on a daily basis. Love the logical approach. A couple things came to mind that I'd like to explore and would have loved to hear about in this video - perhaps some commentors can contribute. 1) My understanding is that although fish are lower on the spectrum of sentience, there is concern relating to over-fishing and it's environmental impact. I find myself uncomfortable with their ability to experience pain at all but that's just a personal experience. However I understand why this is a step many people that care about animals take, this reasoning is why I was pescatarian for 15 years. More learning has led to veganism but that's a story for another day 2) Anthropods - I was recently doing some reading and my understanding is that we are not sure whether crustaceans suffer while being boiled alive. I got the impression scientists are split on this, some feel somewhat confident that they do feel the sensation of being boiled alive and some feel quite sure they likely don't. Again my personal approach is to abstain because there seems to be enough uncertainty and it triggers my being boiled alive mental imagery. This makes me wonder about insects in general, but for now I am focused on mammals. 3) Cravings - this I explored separately from veganism so it tends to be the first thing I wonder about when this argument comes up. So far I consistently read cravings are generally malleable, we crave what we make a habit of eating. I think of how certain cultures enjoy foods that other cultures find... questionable, like Surstromming the fermented fish, casu martzu the maggot cheese, or cheese is general actually. Anyway, my experience has aligned with this. There was a time I enjoyed and craved meat in childhood. Once I stopped eating it at age 11 I no longer craved it. Now I find I experience disgust if I eat a vegan meat alternative that tastes "too much" like meat. This makes me wonder how many people would have a similar experience. 4) On the point that other animals can't respect our rights, I really enjoyed this because I never thought of it! I find myself preferring not to cause unnecessary harm, however. I figure in order to feel a sense of responsibility you need have the capacity to understand the concept. I guess this is why I don't hold babies to a very high moral standard. Aaaand rights seem to be a matter of opinion among adults anyway which is terrifying... 5) Lastly the concept of humane farming, which I was initially very interested in. I get the sense "humane" is used and understood loosely as well as a matter of opinion. One example: I was impacted when I read about the "humane" seal slaughter process on the government of canada website. It stated the standard process was humane then proceeded to describe live skull crushing. At this point I realized I was going to stop assuming we are all using the word humane the same way.
I just wanna say thank you for sharing this info even though youre not vegan, its very rare to see that. I remembered I used to hate all the aggresive vegans who their approach was like "you are a killer, etc etc" and it made me not going vegan lol. Now im 2 years vegan and I think the best way to help people who want to reduce meat consumption is just to share information
@@fromeveryting29 so when I moved out from my home country to USA I started to do my own groceries and my meals where basically chicken, ground turkey, eggs, and salmon. And sometimes when I was putting all the stuff in my fridge I asked myself about all the animals needed to feed every person and every family each day, each week, each month and then for the rest of their lifes, it is crazy right? So one day I just typed "how to eat a balanced vegan diet", "high vegan protein diet", "vegan bodybuilders" and eventually I realized it is not that difficult to get all your nutrients
@@creciendocondividen2 Interesting! I grew up vegetarian and was very conscious about the fact that animals were being used and abused for most peoples diet. It was an unspoken obvious thing in my family that "animals shouldn't be food" if they didn't need to be. So when I met a vegan when I was 21, and saw how easy it was, I though "well, that looks easy, and it is obviously the right thing to do, so I guess it's best if I just cut out milk and eggs. I cut those out before I even knew how terrible the industry was, thanks to my childhood values. I had learned from an early age that animals are worth basic compassion, and not being used as means to our trivial ends, so it was automatically completely obvious to me that I shoul be vegan, once I saw how possible it actually was. Interesting how it happens to different people
Do you have tips for a regular Joe like myself to be vegan? I tried going vegan for a week, but after 3 days I kept feeling out of breath and *exhausted*. The last 4 days were hell on earth. I had the best steak and chicken of my life after that. Then I never tried veganism again. I believe the greatest issue for me, though, is that soy, beans and gluten don't "agree well" with my digestive system, to put it mildly hahah
@@bva0 sure! I had the same issue lol it's because all that fiber intake shocks your guts, but after 2 weeks or so it will adapt to that amount of fiber ( which is good) and you won't have that issue. So I'll say maybe start adding a meal or two fully vegan, idk how many meals you have per day so I'm just giving random numbers, and each week you can increase those vegan meals and replace the meat on each meal, also you can go 1 day of a week fully vegan and the next week 2 days, etc. Rinse your beans! All the water that is in the can makes you fart a lot lol and be patient man, your gut will adapt to the fiber and you'll be good!
just realized that I like dr.Mike's personality so much more than the info he is giving for free even, I mean I would listen him talking on any topic. dr.Mike for president!
as a vegan who lifts weights i just started the video but already suprised that he is even addressing the ethics reasonably. but lately eat alot of quinoa with wholegrain pasta with spinach, broccoli. with some side veggies (extra colors) and throughout the day lots of oats with plant based yoghurt with blue berries and lots of fruits and some nuts.
As a vegan I really enjoyed this video! Dr. Mike is so well spoken. I would say though, this seemed more like a 10 reasons to consider vegetarianism rather than veganism, as dairy and eggs weren’t mentioned! But great video still :)
I was looking for the top comment about this issue as well, but logically extrapolating from his arguments, I would think he is very pro ethical dairy and egg harvesting in ways that protect the animal, does not artificially enhance their hormones, and humanely allows the animals to die once they no longer produce milk or eggs. With honey, as he argues insects do not have feelings and are purely wired on instincts, I presume he has no issue with harvesting honey in sustainable ways that protect and increase honey bee population as they are key pollinators and allow for better produce production and protection of biodiversity overall. With gelatin products, I would think he would be more open towards using it as a leftover of humanely killed animals to prevent wasting it, similarly with leather products. Not harvesting the animals solely for that but if an animal dies naturally or is humanely euthanized, preventing as much waste as possible would be preferred, as the animal is already deceased at that point, the onus is on humanity to be responsible for appropriately utilizing the remains, much like how we ethically harvest human organs to save lives. As most animals do not have specific habits concerning the rights of the dead, save for rare examples like elephants, utilizing the most of an animal carcass to prevent waste as a life has already been lost or taken seems to be the most responsible thing. Obviously with less farming in general and the increased improvements of vegan leather and advanced chemical engineering, needs for gelatin and leather have dramatically decreased as well and could be eliminated and only used when disposing of an already deceased animal. Similarly with other furs and pelts. IE: no fox, minx, or weasel farms, but perhaps if one is humanely hunted in the wild to protect pets, children, or decrease overpopulation, a strong argument could be made for pelts.
I just love being around other intellectuals that consider all choices and make their own decisions without animosity, but understanding, for the roads not taken. Thank you Dr. Mike for being a voice of reason in the social media world of making everything dramatic and antagonistic.
Share his videos around so others can see! His viewer base is pretty much limited to "serious" science-interested bodybuilders and powerlifters. I would do it but I don't use social media.
@@psmtz I thought he did in what he had to say. Was it logically bulletproof? Of course not, but the behavior he used was something I would like to see more of on social media. What were your thoughts on the subject? Honestly curious to hear your opinion.
I think there were some interesting arguments in there and he seems to argue in good spirit. But on a philosophical level it was a mess of thrown around ethical concepts. He sometimes argued against deontological arguments and sometimes against utilitarian ones and also valued extrinsic and intrinsic values against each other. I think for those who are not familiar with animal ethics the video probably just adds to the ongoing confusion.
When I heard about the dairy industry i was heartbroken. I gave up red meat in 2016 due to health and then a school mum told me about the dairy industry in 2019 and I instantly went vegan. I was very emotional and when you open yourself up to reality and more information about suffering I did go on a tangent. But that was 2 years ago, I can't make anyone vegan but I feel so much better and post educational information. Thanks for doing this video.
@@leniobarcelos1770 I watched the start until she started cooking meat. To be honest I don't think she's a vegan for the animals. I enjoyed meat but gave up after finding out about the dairy industry and as a vegan who follows other vegans you get to see more shocking things done to animals and even if I wanted to go back to eating meat I couldn't. I literally have nightmares from what I've seen. Also this girl seems to have issues that don't relate to veganism. I think she has hormonal issues and she didn't seem to have remorse about going back to eating meat. If I was going to turn my back on veganism I wouldn't be telling everyone and show myself eating a burger, maybe that's just me. Maybe she should of gone to a Dr first before trying to blame veganism, being plant based and eating a variety of food is important and maybe she wasn't eating enough fat??? But thanks for this, I like being kept informed xx
I went vegan not because of the killing, but because of the suffering. I grew up on a farm; my family were 3rd world peasants. We killed the animals because it was necessary for our survival but we never abused them. I just assumed for years that when we were talking about animal agriculture, it was the same situation as when I was a kid; small family farms where the animals were cared for. When a cow got pregnant, we didn't rip her baby away the day it was born leaving the mother grieving for her baby. It was like, "Hey great, another cow! More milk!" I saw a video of it and it broke my heart to see the mother cow grieving for her baby and with the knowledge that this happens to her over and over again throughout her life. That's when was like, "Ok, I don't want any part of this."
@@gillhewerfamily6550 milk production lasts for years after having a calf. Cows do not need to be constantly pregnant. That's a myth. Also, yall are the same type to be fine with abortion, but oh no, not the cows. XD
@@Woah869 .....I grew up on a farm and our neighbor was a dairy farmer who sold to Walmart and other stores. This shit doesn't happen everywhere. Maybe at some places, but come on...think critically. Why would you waste resources? Businesses don't do that.
Hey Mike. This video played a big role in my decision to go vegan. Thank you for sharing your views in a logical and clearly well-thought-through manner, as always!
To me the biggest argument for veganism is that factory farming is out of control. The sheer scale of it is insane. It's bad for animals, the environment and for people. Large scale super-farms drive small scale family business farmers out of business just so humans can buy a $1 hamburger from burger king - when you pay little to no money for your meat, milk, cheese and eggs, you buy into a market designed to cripple farmers and animals. I am a veterinarian and I've seen farmers driven to suicide from losing their farm because they can't sell their products for what they are worth. 100 years ago people used to buy a lamb or a leg of beef and have it last a family all winter - meat was a luxury not an every day commodity. Now people expect to pay so little for it. It's sad.
Meanwhile let’s just ignore the environmental degradation caused by factory farming. Also citation needed on this your theory that people are less meat 100 years ago. That’s the opposite of reality - any level critical thought bares that out.
"buy a $1 hamburger" And you know what's even worse? it's not really a 1$ because of all government money pumped into animal farming. Money that should go for healthcare or schools is used as a fuel for private owned industry.
@@ThomasShatter wow! This one s literally the opposite of reality. You know what the government actually subsidies - CORN! So disingenuous just “Dr.” Mike.
Hi Mike. I would LOVE for you to get Earhtling Ed on to discuss all of this. He's calm and logical about veganism in discussion and I'd love to see you guys discuss your thoughts on everything.
While Earthling Ed would be calm and wonderful to have a debate with, unfortunately he weighs under 130lbs and doesn’t qualify for Dr. Mike’s conversation requirement. 😂
@@Persto1208 What does weight have to to with a conversation about moral philosophy? If you're implying that vegans can't get enough protein and therefore ed is skinny then you're simply wrong because ed has always been skinny and you can consume a high amount of protein as a vegan without protein supplements.
As a vegan, I've never been harassed more about changing my diet than by people who still eat meat and dairy. I'm in insanely good shape, but they can't go seconds without telling me how I need to start eating meat and whatnot, despite being more fit and in better shape than 98% of the people here.
Dr. Mike, I've been watching your videos for roughly a year or so now but haven't seen this video yet. This is the first time this video has popped up in the algorithm for me, and this is not the type of video I would've expected from the channel, but I'm absolutely loving it! Very educational, thought provoking, and entertaining! Learned a lot from this. This is a video I didn't know I needed!
Love how measured this video is. Unexpected from this channel, but hardily welcome Edit: Halfway through the video. I really didn't expect such a philosophical video from you. This is probably my favorite video I've ever seen on your channel
Awesome for you to make this video Mike. I agree with a lot of what you said, but I have problems with a few things you said. I do agree with point #1, but the size and how much meat an animal provides matters. You rank killing cows as a "bigger bad" than killing chickens, but it would require a lot of chickens to be killed to provide the equivalent amount of meat as a single cow. You could argue the total suffering would be higher. Also, there are factors outside the killing of the animal which can cause pain and suffering to other animals and humans - bycatch kills dolphins, which you would probably rank above pigs, farming of cows is terrible for the environment and if it were abolished it would prevent human suffering from climate change. #2: You explained why it's bad to kill humans with a low IQ from a practical standpoint, not from a moral standpoint. You said it would destabilize society, but what if it didn't destabilize society? For example, killing pigs in today's world doesn't destabilize society. Is that a good justification to eat pigs, even though they're highly intelligent? #3: If a man managed to kill a crocodile that attacked him in the wild, that's self-defence, and it's justified. But what if that man instead captured crocodiles and breed them into the billions, locked them up in factory farms and had them endure massive suffering for humans to eat. Would the justification for all that be because they're assholes? No. If cows were very aggressive animals, it wouldn't make it more moral to kill them for meat because of the situation they're in (it would only make sense in the hypothetical room, the situation matters). #5 Humans kill billions of animals and have enough nukes to destroy the planet many times over lol. So far, at least, humans have caused a net negative for life on this planet. "if you hunt you're very morally defensible" - the justification you gave being overpopulation, and they'd probably endure greater suffering in the wild. Overpopulation of old people with degrading IQ has a greater negative impact on the environment, and they suffer going into old age, why don't we hunt and kill them? "Consider purchasing from more humane and environmentally friendly farming conditions" - This doesn't exist. An animal still gets killed very early on in its life on a "humane farm". Even in the most ideal scenario, being vegan would be the morally superior position. Secondly, the ideal friendly farm would have no financial incentive to exist, why would a farm be willing to let a cow live out it's long life span using up resources instead of killing it very early on when it reaches peak size? Thirdly, this isn't practical for the whole planet to follow, "humane farms" require more space and resources, a benefit of factory farming is that it's efficient and uses fewer resources per kg of meat. Fourthly, it's very difficult to know if a farm is "humane" and these standards are not followed a lot of the times. Cage free eggs could just mean thousands of chickens are in one big cage (a factory farm). "if you care about animals, advocate for cleaning up factory farms first" - because of what I mentioned above, this isn't good advice. Also, it shouldn't be about what is the most effective at decreasing harm, it should be about advocating the right message. If me telling rapists to just rape women humanely decreased overall harm, I wouldn't say it, instead I'd tell them to stop raping women. Telling people to eat from "humane farms" and eat less meat reinforces the belief that eating meat is OK. It's a confusing message.
Response to #1, #2, #3 and #5 for Clarence. For #1 not sure if I’m being picky, but not farming cows won’t prevent the world from suffering from climate change, it will reduce the amount of change. I.e the simple action of not farming cows won’t stop the human suffering of climate change, but it can reduce the amount of emissions. #2 Morality is very contextual unless you’re going by objective morality. I.e we can agree that for the most part killing of humans is bad, but in the context of war or self defence, it isn’t AS bad. So now in your example you just changed the entire context of human reality in which we don’t have the same society globally as we do now. So of course morality will change with different parameters. #3 it would be a case of weighing the moral “bad” against the potential benefits of doing this farming. Which Mike is saying (I think at least), for animals that have limited capability to suffer/ feel pain, farming these animals have such small moral “badness” in comparison to the potential benefits we can get from doing the action of farming them, that it is either a net neutral or good #5 you compared old human over population with animal over population (hunting), but you didn’t consider the fact that by this point of the video, he already established that killing humans is a no no for him because of the almost inevitable destabilisation/corruption of human society.
Great points for someone who equals pigs to people. This is veganism at its best, you'd kill a person before killing an animal and you'd think you did the right thing. Also, please go live in the woods if you're against all sufferings, cause even writing from your iPhone is destroying the environment. Bunch of hypocrites. 😂
Nice points. In general it seems your counter points employ a different measure(#) to the particular measure (#) you are trying to disprove. Mike is going independently measure by measure and then adding them all together at the end.
Hey Mike. I've been vegan for about 8 years and started as one of the super traumatized / angry in your face ones and now 10 years later mellowed down a lot and dialed in at being a vegan at home and vegetarian outside. During that time I watched a crapton for pro- and antivegan videos. I'm serious, several thousand videos and documentaries. I like your video the best since it's very logical and doesn't rely heavily on questionable studies or black and white thinking. A big thank you! Some thoughts though: - You mentioned dogs when you talked about rights reciprocity and that they would understand. I think that's due to socialization. If you would socialize a pig or cow the same way they also would not want to hurt you and might even protect you. On the other hand think about humans that grow up as child soldiers or in street gangs. They will not probably not respect your rights.
I’m curious how much experience you have with pigs. A pig is an extremely dangerous animal. I live in a rural area and have known “city people” who have tried to raise pigs as pets. They realize pretty quickly that this animal is a threat, especially to their children. It will quite literally kill you and eat you. I’m not saying we should torture and eat pigs. I’m just saying there is a big difference between a pig and a dog.
What if we socialized the animals slaughtered - completely in vain - during the industrial farming process so you can have your produce? Would those animals start to matter to you then?
There are different kinds of domestication. There is domestication for socialisation (dogs), for food(pigs), for work (horse). We don't eat social ol work, nor we use food one for work.
Love your take on the subject! It's nice to have someone who is able to analyze arguments for/against veganism without too much of a bias either way. I've been vegan for 8 years, but I really enjoyed your counterpoints against veganism as well as the pros. It's important to know both sides, and vegans (myself included) need to recognize the nuance of the subject instead of seeing it as black/white Also, I'd love to see more videos on a more plant based approach to training! Just got into powerlifting and would be cool to see your take on how a plant based diet can affect strength. I've not had a problem so far, but I'm always interested in learning about how I can improve (while remaining plant based)
there is nothing special: - increase protein to 1.25-1.5 g since it all plant based - watch amino acid content of a given plant protein source - pay attention to micronutrients and some other chemicals that come from animals (b12 and creatine are some examples)
Amino acid profile makes no difference in my experience. You get enough because you’re eating a lot of food and multiple types. Soy and hemp specifically already have a complete profile
The gram per pound estimate is still applicable, you might find you go a bit over or under depending on how satiating you find high protein veggies. You do need to have variety though, no plant based protein is complete of all essentials, but you can usually do a bean + anything else. I really like edamame and sesame in particular
Dr. Mike is so smart he will go vegan eventually. When you consider the health benefits, environmental benefits, and ethical benefits of veganism it's a no-brainer. Yes I know veganism is not a diet.
Hi Dr. Mike, great video! However, I think you’re wrong about the argument from marginal cases (eating mentally disabled people and grandma). The idea under discussion there is some natural property (intelligence, rationality, language, etc.) that guarantees moral standing to all individuals who possess that natural property, and that those without the natural property lack moral standing. To say that an individual has moral standing is to say that they count, morally speaking, *in their own right* (as opposed to mattering morally for some extrinsic reason). A popular argument against veganism/animal rights is that humans matter, morally speaking, and animals don’t, because humans possess some natural property which animals do not (again: popular options are intelligence, rationality and language). The argument from marginal cases states that for whatever natural property you choose as the threshold for this moral outlook, some humans will fail to meet that threshold and therefore lack moral standing, which goes against our deepest considered moral judgments. So, we either need to bite the bullet and admit that some people don’t matter (thus abandoning some very central moral principles), or abandon the idea that there is some definite threshold. Or, as the vegan would argue, we should simply choose a property (say, sentience) which guarantees moral standing to both humans and (at least most) animals. Your counter-argument is that treating mentally impaired humans as having no moral standing would destabilize society. Thus, we need to treat all humans as having moral standing for the sake of some important political goals. Fair enough. But realize that if this were true, it would not mean that these humans matter *for their own sake*. They would matter for the sake of an important political goals (the stability of society). And if an individual does not matter for their own sake, they do not have moral standing. They have a different sort of moral status altogether. If this doesn’t seem problematic, consider that an animal farmer already thinks about animals this way. A cattle rancher doesn’t deny that a cow matters *at all*- they matter because they are important to the rancher’s livelihood. What the rancher would likely deny is that the cow matters *for it’s own sake*. So the argument you’ve made fails to secure moral standing for the mentally impaired, and more than a rancher’s financial interests secure moral standing for a cow. I appreciate that you took the time to do a video on this and that you argued for your points carefully and in good faith. Also, kudos for incorporating some Eastern philosophical thought, which often gets neglected in academia. Great content as always!
@@sovietpigeon1364 thanks friend, but the truth is that I have just had the privilege of studying this stuff. Animal ethics is one of the most active fields of research in contemporary philosophy and there are a lot of hard-working philosophers producing and analyzing arguments about our duties towards the other animals. Hopefully, there are more discussions and videos like these popping up in the near future.
@@mikedemolisherSOS this is a contentious issue because there is actually no agreement about why humans have moral standing. However, my own judgment on this matter is that humans and animals matter because we have the capacity for living a good or bad life. By contrast, an organism like a flower can do well if it gets sunshine and rain in the right amounts, or poorly if it lacks these things or has too much of them, but the flower itself is not the type of individual that is the subject of its own life (it does not experience its biological life; there is nothing that it is like to be a flower). So I would argue that any individual that can experience its own welfare matters for its own sake.
@@doubleoblit doesn't that judgement imply that it is okay to kill for food some animals (which there are) that don't experience this? does it also imply that a person in coma have even less priority than some animals?
Wow. I thought this was gon be on the effect on building muscle or strength. But there’s a lot of folks that wouldn’t hear these things otherwise. Good shit my g
He touched on that in the Nutrition for Muscle Gain series. As long as you’re getting enough protein (which should probably lean more toward 3g/kg bodyweight to account for the lower digestibility and quality of plant proteins) there really isn’t that much of a difference. He describes it as a few percentage points. That’s small enough that only high-level competitors need to worry about it. (And if all the hours I’ve spent watching Full Day of Eating videos has taught me anything, it’s that even pros do a lot of suboptimal stuff.)
@@Magic_beans_ 3g/kg bw? That's ridiculous 😂 so your saying an avg 80kg man needs *at least* 240g protein? Bro, 1.6-2.2g/kg is optimal, any more is overkill
@@Lb-ri5wr That's the number specifically for vegans since plant-based protein sources have lower digestibility than animal protein sources, meaning the body uses less of the amino acids in plant based protein sources than an animal protein source when protein is equated. The increase in protein recommendation is to balance out this lower digestibility if you actually read their comment.
@@yesnomaybeso9144 Studies comparing vegans and omnivores eating equal protein have demonstrated equal gains. Please stop with this outdated idea that vegans need to eat one kilogram of protein a day because lOwEr QuAlItY.
This was amazing thank you for this video. I am a new lifter and had not ate meat for 18 years. Recently to get more protein I started fishing and found my middle ground. Seriously man this was great.
as a dietetics major who've taken some applied ethics as electives, I appreciate Dr.Mike so much for bring up this topic. most people in the field especially in sports nutrition will dismiss any plant-based diets without even given the topic some thoughts. For high level athletes it's for sure difficult to sustain a vegan diet(especially for females) but there are still things that they/ the team can do to reduce animal suffering. That being said, most of us recreational gym goers can do even more, and that starts with exactly what Dr.Mike is doing, which is to get rid of our biases and stop treating vegansim as purely memes (some are funny for sure) and start talking about the issue seriously and logically.
I realize I'm watching this 2 yrs after it was posted, but I thought this was great. I sort of wish something would have been said about the milk/egg farm situation, even just briefly, because vegans present that as being sometimes even less humane conditions than farming animals for meat. But very insightful! Thanks!
Have you seen the documentary "You Are What You Eat"? A short twin study through Stanford University, led by Dr. Christopher Gardner. Regarding egg production; there's a chicken egg farmer who's spotlit and a cattle rancher to name a few who describe their evolution away from their previous practices. With the egg farmer, in particular, it was downright moving to see what he came to for himself.
This was fantastic, thank you Dr. Mike. You touched on so many concept that I've only very superficially considered. Knocked it out of the park with this one. Plan to show it to many.
That’s a big problem with the app imo. I’m not vegan, but it only counts proteins from “protein dense food” so like beans and all that is out, and it takes a lot of meat/fish to fill died requirements and it gets kinda ugh Edit: by that i mean, it separates macros in your food picking section, so that you can’t pick beans and stuff and make it count for proteins, it only counts the carbs in them because they are in the carbs section, you can only pick animal products, edame pasta and protein powder for your “protein” macro section of the meal
Amazing video. AMAZING video Mike, you did a terrific job. I'm sitting here considering my life choices now (and I never watched a 1-hour long yt video before). Great achievements!
Nimai Delgado would be a brilliant guest. Brilliant that you have made this video. I believed since I changed to a plans based diet, I am more conscious of what meat is. It’s hard to explain but I think it definitely has something to do with our gut bacteria.
@@WolfgerSilberbaer LMAO. I love it. In a very balanced and nuanced video, there's always that one guy that takes exception and gets upset with one off-handed comment that's completely unrelated to the central message. Congrats! You are the official Dunce of the Day!
@@FirstNameLastName-gq3uv You're really stretching for something to be offended about, eh? 1) I neither took exception to nor was offended by the comments. You dreamt that up on your own. 2) I was not even commenting on the video, per se. 3) I made a truthful statement, with humorous intent, in response to somebody else's comment. But I guess there's always that one guy who just won't get the joke...
I love the fact that you went over the Name The Trait argument on your second point (you used the trait of intellegence). The thing is though, you can't say "oh well it wouldnt be practical to kill humans in this way because x y z" the practicality is irrelevent to the point. If it was just as practical to catagorise mentally challenged humans and farm them, would ut be OK? If not why? Practicality isnt an argument. The hypothetical assumes practicality is taken care of, the only distinguishing factor is species.
@@Lb-ri5wr Who knows. I think at this point people are so ready to draw lines in the sand, that even debating logic of scenarios somehow aligns you to Team A or Team B. My God have we gotten so simplistic.
@@kozmo7 well there's team, "pro unnecessary animal abuse & murder" and team "against unnecessary animal abuse & murder". Same as, team "pro racism" and team "anti racism".
Great video, Dr. Mike. I'd love to see a follow-up video where you tie in the vegan/vegetarian diet with hypertrophy training, i.e., how to hit your macros and what supplements might be helpful. Keep up the good work.
Tofu has the most grams of protein per calorie out of literally anything. No commercial protein bar, none can match its macros. Maybe if you had straight up whey (which is not vegan but is vegetarian) mixed in skim milk might get you close. Which might not be vegan, but is vegetarian. Major advantage of these as protein source is low cholesterol.
@@aethylwulfeiii6502 That's actually not true. I'm looking at a tofu package right now...one serving has 7 grams of protein and 70 calories. Morningstar grillers, for example, have 16 grams of protein at 140 calories. But beyond that, there's only 35 grams of protein in the entire tofu package-- that's a lot of tofu and not all that much protein.
He’s probably right, but saying “pigs probably suffer less than humans” is a statement you just can’t say out loud at a dinner party. It’s a philosophical question about how much anxiety contributes to suffering, and the people that truly love all animals will just never entertain possibility. To vegans, all creatures share suffering.
Dr. Mike, your knowledge is a gift not just to us in the fitness industry, but to humanity as a whole. Thank you for always presenting the science and both sides to arguments in such an eloquent (and hilarious) way! I always look forward to your content and share your videos with many friends and clients.
Awesome video man. Love how thought out everything was. Very interesting content. Would love more on the philosophical/intellectual stuff. Thanks a lot
Wow, this is a video I did not expect to see. Love your ability to break such a complex and heated subject down to an unbiased simple-to-digest format. Thanks Dr. Mike!
Excellent vid. Great analysis. I've been leaning towards transitioning to only pasture-raised meats, maybe piscatarian, and this is definitely reinforcing my thoughts and encouraging me to make that happen.
I respect your level-headed approach towards veganism. I'd just like to add, because these people are often overlooked, that some of the harmed bystanders of the meat industry include slaughter house workers who are prone to PTSD and suffer from poor work conditions (in some part due to the high demand of meat). I'd like to see better conditions for all ag laborers, but I think one step in the right direction is cutting back on or refraining from meat. There is plenty of room for plant based ag labor, especially if subsides are redistributed, but that's too much for one post. Thanks for making this video.
I went veggie because white meat was giving me indigestion. And red meat was making me feel sick. So because I haven't done it for moral reasons, I basically piss everyone off. But obviously the moral side of it is amazing and I love animals and now I am the other side of the fence. Could not go back now. it's been 18 months and I have had indigestion and heartburn less times in that 18 months, than I would of in less than a month from eating meat. I look better and feel so much better to. No more feeling lethargic either.
Great video. I do wish you would have brough up the inhumane treatment of cows and chickens in dairy and egg production as well, but I understand from an academic sense it would have made the video's structure more messy. In any case it's great, and quite rare, to hear a non-vegan fitness coach/athlete consider the merits of veganism. Just another reason I feel this channel is the best free source for fitness education on the internet!
Dr. Mike, I appreciate this video so much. I am eating a mostly vegan diet for a lot of the reasons you've gone through. It was a logical decision based off of ethical/moral grounds, but it was also based on nutritional needs and disease prevention. Thank you for going through this in an intelligent and well thought out manner.
Thanks for making this video Mike. Refreshing to see even the fitness influencers who do eat meat acknowledge the benefits of a vegan diet. I was always more convinced by the ethical and environmental factors, not sure why people need the reasoning to be about health. Game changers really fucked that one up, but glad it made veganism more popular at least. On another note, have you considered reducing your meat/dairy consumption Mike? Would be cool to see you do so for a month or so and post some eating videos
This may be my favorite video of yours. Completely bringing the temperature down and discussing a variety of options people can do to try to improve animal welfare. Well done!
Interesting talk, thanks for putting the work in. I've been on the veggie/vegan end of the spectrum for 17 years and I'm not about to change that but it's good to hear a fairly balanced and thought through video on the subject.
Hey Dr. Mike, I love your stuff as always. I am plant based/vegan (environmental reasons) for the past year and a half only eating fish on a rare occasion (thinking that it’s environmental impact wasn’t really applicable). Just wanted to ask if you have seen the documentary/film “Seaspiracy” as it corrected a lot of my thoughts on the environmental impacts of fishing. I’ve only just seen it myself and it details a lot of the other bad things that the fishing industry has committed.
There are many good reasons against eating seafood, and most of them are easily available. Seas piracy unfortunately is 90% intellectual dishonesty and for science-minded people who pick up on fallacies easily, it hurts more than it helps imho. Same with Cowspiray, Gamechangers and other heavily biased documentaries. What I love about this video and creators like Unnatural Vegan, is that they refrain from exactly this emotional, scaremongering angle.
Thank you for making this video, the timing couldn’t me more perfect for me. I’ve been trying to transition to veganism over the past few months. I would be very interested to hear what you think a vegan lifter should supplement with, because it’s very hard to find good information on this!
Me too, though I'm more thinking vegetarian, as there are tonnes of free range eggs avail near me (rural). Pretty much never eat meat for the last few yrs, and I'm still getting bigger and stronger. Certainly no performance loss, though I do think protein powder (also vegan) helps a bunch if you don't wanna pay super close attention to your diet.
gonna replace my dairy with plant-based alternatives and replace my protein powder with plant-based as well. other than that, I only have fish (which I'm not ditching any time soon) and the occasional egg (which I don't even like and just eat for the protein, lol). guess I'll be a pescatarian. Great video!
DR Mike, this has to be the most well put and well thought out video on veganism I've seen so far!!! I'm plant-based, not all out vegan, but the fact that you delivered a solid argument for choosing veganism or plant-based diet without neglecting the counter arguments and grey zones, all the while not cramming it down peoples throats as most vegans are known to do. Bravo! I've been following your channel for the training tips for almost a year now. Although I've been doing a HIT approach to lifting, you bring along lots of good, intelligent and fun content I enjoy trying. I never expected to see this kind of video come out of your camp but I'm very happy you did this. I've been questioning my eating/diet choices lately as I'm not meeting my protein needs as I should. There would be so much more to ask you about on this point alone, but I do want to ask the following: I can't confirm hearing you mention anything about egg consumption in your video and where does it fall in your grid of standards. If you could comment, that would be great and much appreciated. Best to you. - Rich
Hey Rich! I highly doubt DR Mike is going to give you an answer, since this video is already over a year old. From my pov I would consider eggs to be ”the least of evils” IF gotten from the right sources. So small local farms etc. It’s great to hear that you are plant based! If you enjoyed this video I’m sure you would enjoy CosmicSkeptic’s video called ”A meat eaters case for veganism” I’d suggest you take a look at that first before worrying about the egg stuff.
Thank you very much Dr. Mike and the RP Team for this fine discussion of logic and realness. The ordering of the concerns are very valid, though just in my view at times a little anthropocentric, which can be hard to set aside, being human and all, and I agree with the net-positive balance of humanity's presence if we actually get our shit together like the intelligent and morally capable species we are. I do disagree with the concept of "humanely killing", which is an oxymoron technically and still involves the slaughter of an innocent and sentient entity concretely. It likely would also require a lot of land, as you also mentioned. TL;DR really is eating a protein-rich plant-based diet. Thank you again for your work, it really is appreciated and thought-inducing.
I really like this video, very interesting and enlightening! I would probably add to this list somewhere around the nutrition part the health benefits of lower animal consumption / higher plant consumption (higher fiber intake, lower saturated fat intake, easier weight control, and other health promoting practices). This reduces suffering and costs for the individual, their loved ones and society.
You made some great points, others I disagree with. The biggest one regards commercial wild and farmed fish. Even if you don’t necessarily care about the fish - the industry itself has tremendous impacts on the environment/ ocean which will eventually catch up to humans
That debate with Avi must have really rubbed you the wrong way lol. You were probably like: "Fuck it, I'll have to do this myself". Awesome video as always. Unemotional, rational, nuanced and logical discourse is the way to go. Unfortunately, as irrational apes plagued by countless cognitive biases, we tend to think in a highly fallacious manner, to form a coherent picture of the world; not an accurate one. As most people cling to the illusion of the self/ego with free will, attached to an identity as a fixed entity, they no longer have ideas; ideas have them. So much of our uninspected, societally conditioned, extrinsically instilled as well as genetically and epigenetically influenced preconceived notions govern our beliefs, behaviors and values. Morality should not be confined to absolute truths and laws which lack nuance and consideration for context; most things tend to lie on spectra. Great job of conveying that. I agree with almost all of what you said. Though I think you should clarify the definition of veganism. To me, it is a non-dogmatic philosophical perspective which seeks to exclude the exploitation and cruelty to sentient life as much as is possible and practicable. Thinking out loud here: Would an inconceivably more advanced species, who view us the same we view insects, be justified in farming and exploiting humans? I suppose only if they farmed us in a way where we were uncapable of being aware of it, and suffering as a result. I guess the same could be said of most animals, but certainly the way we farm them today couldn't be further from that. Minor point of contention: It's a bit of a stretch to say that the "humane slaughter" that goes on is actually very humane. It's even more of a stretch to say that it's morally almost on par with veganism. Certainly a step in the right direction, but still pretty bad. Other than that, this video is truly commendable.
I think that advanced species concept was answered somewhere in the video. If aliens put you in their and let you live your best life, even if you were "imprisoned" would it really matter? And in this case the difference between imprisonment and farming probably only lacks the slaughter as the last step. I think its humane enough. The other options is all the suffering that nature can give unto you, it does not seem more moral or human in the slightest.
As a vegan I really appreciate this video, good reasoning, compeling arguments, Mike is being very pragmatic and professional. If Everybody lived in the way of considering each point and trying to lean to the "better" side of the spectrum on each of them I'm pretty sure world would be a much better place.
Same thing happened with his “Weights vs. Cardio” video. Aligned pretty closely (both in timing and in content) with an appearance he made on Greg Doucette’s show.
Hey Dr. Mike. Thanks for this video. I don't nessecarily agree with every argument you make, but it's still very heartening to see. For a long time, it was very hard to get non-vegans and vegans to engage in discussions about veganism in good faith (for a variety of reasons). Great to see some cooler heads prevailing.
Phenomenal video love your videos on things other than fitness, I like those to ofc but these and especially your arguing to convince series are my favorite
Hi Mike (or anyone reading this)! I just want to share my personal anecdote, for whatever it’s worth. At 41:24 you mention adults. I was 17 years old in -97 when I stopped eating all animals. I’m now almost 42 and have been vegan for 16 years and I’m feeling and looking fantastic, even better than back when I went vegan! In recent years, I’ve been more and more interested in health and nutrition, but I went (and is still, of course) vegan for the animals, I didn’t know - or care about nutrition. I have not been supplementing with anything until last year when I started taking b12 occasionally (not because I was deficient , but because better safe than sorry, vegan or not). Well, I did actually try a bottle of vitamin D this winter, just as an experiment, but I didn’t notice any difference (I live in the dark and cold northern Scandinavia btw). I know you are an expert at this, unlike me, but I can honestly say that I have not thought about protein even once during all these years. My point with all this is, that although it is an anecdote, there is absolutely nothing special about me at all. I have no super powers, I’m not rich, I’m a product of two alcoholics (how’s that for a nutritional base in life, haha), I live in the northern Scandinavia... and I in fact had a pretty s***ty start in life with both MS, hypothyroidism, allergies (symptom free since going vegan btw!) So how this could be even considered “a challenge” to anyone, as far as nutrition goes, is beyond me. Unless, of course, you have problems, but that’s what modern medicine is for, it’s not to sustain a few vegans.
Great video! I'd love to see an entire video break down on your thoughts regarding why fish/crustaceans/insects either can't or barely experience suffering. -7yr vegan
Great video Mike. Been vegan since 2016 and I thought this was a pretty fair take on veganism overall. You’re right in pointing out that there is a spectrum in all this shit.
My friend recently turned vegan, it’s like she totally changed, it’s like I never knew her-bivore
Ha good one sir
funny guy lol
Great dad joke
Ahhh ya got me, damnit
*Slaps knee*
This...This man is going places.
this video seals the deal regarding Dr Mikes intellect to me. one of the keys to intellect is the ability to pivot out of your own perspective to view reality from completely new angles. that’s where the largest gains in insight are made imho. Dr Mike has great form in his intellect. sincere applause sir
Thank you for this comment. You just made me realize I haven't been able to put myself in the other parties place truly on topics I disagree with a lot. If I want to be smarter I have to be able to do this, and that's what irks me.
@@data-0151hell yeah self awareness W
Yeah... probably too smart to eat
You probably haven’t watched his debate with Vegan Gains then. Mike makes ridiculously stupid arguments such as factory farmed animals enjoy their life.
Imagine how huge you'd get if you ate mike
I love this guy.. most refreshing muscle youtuber in years.
I've been a vegan and philosophy teacher for years but I feel like this is one of the most competent, comprehensive, and honest analyses of this issue (from across the aisle) that I've ever heard.
Would love to see Mike engage with some other more deliberate thinkers on this issue, other than vegan gains. He's funny and everything but I'm not sure he's the most disciplined mind to go up against Mike on this topic.
"Muscle youtuber" damn, why does that sound so funny?
@@loganwolv3393i like your funny words, muscle man
Vegan gains knows how to debate intelligently, he's just abrasive as hell lol
He debated Dr Avi on the topic.
Totally agree.
Since I primarily know you as a fitness and health channel, I thought this was gonna be a look into the mechanics of veganism from a nutritional standpoint, the rundown through all the philosophical points of veganism was an extremely pleasant surprise and watching you try to give the most logical, unbiased, and precise interpretations of each point was so informative and helpful. This is probably the best video I’ve seen on this topic and you got me thinking about a lot of things, keep making quality content brother 💪🏽
Props to you for making this video. I've hardly seen any other non-vegan fitness TH-cam speak about veganism, so its great to hear this. Especially when talking about ethics as well
veganism is not better then going pure carnivore. veganism is not more ethical not better for the environment and not healthier then pure carnivore eating pastured animals NOT factory farming. veganism is only better then the standard American diet short term.
@@mjordan5382 Where are you getting your information? I won't even go into why choosing not to pay for a food item where an animal is killed just for existing is more ethical than eating animal products. It's easy to claim something is ethical when at the end of it you get a steak and the animal gets killed.
Environmentally animal products are in another league of destruction. Animal agriculture is the leading cause of water pollution, including 20% of fresh water streams in the US which people, especially native populations, depend on (EPA). In addition, 75% of land used for crops is grown for animals (equivalent size of USA, China, Australia, and Europe combined). Animal agriculture crops is the leading cause for the destruction of the Amazon rainforest. Poore & Nemecek (2018) do conclusive research on the topic and find that switching to a vegan diet is 'the biggest way to reduce one's impact on the environment.'
Your statements about health are a little confusing, and I don't want to comment on them before I understand what you are saying. What do you mean veganism is better than the SAD only in short term? I hope you don't think cutting out 4 different types of animal, milk, and eggs is some other league of dieting. The healthiest people in the world who live in Blue Zone groups follow predominantly plant-based lifestyle with little to no meat.
Where exactly are you getting your information? You are free to form whatever conclusions about veganism you wish, but at least recognize that they have to be based on something other than what you feel or hope is true.
@@thepictureispavement ready my comments I posted studies and ppl to learn from.
@@mjordan5382 What comments? I would love to read any studies or other forms of evidence you have.
@@thepictureispavement Metabolic Evaluation of the Dietary Guidelines' Ounce Equivalents of Protein Food Sources in Young Adults: A Randomized Controlled Trial - PubMed
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33693735/
Vegan dietary pattern for the primary and secondary prevention of cardiovascular diseases - PubMed
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33629376/
Dietary fibre for the prevention of colorectal adenomas and carcinomas - PubMed
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12076480/
Veganism, vegetarianism, bone mineral density, and fracture risk: a systematic review and meta-analysis - PubMed
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30376075/
Hi Mike. I know us vegans can be very emotional on this topic, but just wanted to say thanks for speaking about this topic in such an intelligent and open minded way on your channel. Much love
Mike is a great guy
Mike is a great guy
Are you corn fed, or grass finished? Asking for a friend.
@@hhfbko Mike is a great guy
Vegans are emotional because of the overabundance of estrogen flooding their systems.
This was so interesting to listen to! It aligns with a lot of the mental pathways I have explored as I think about this on a daily basis. Love the logical approach. A couple things came to mind that I'd like to explore and would have loved to hear about in this video - perhaps some commentors can contribute.
1) My understanding is that although fish are lower on the spectrum of sentience, there is concern relating to over-fishing and it's environmental impact. I find myself uncomfortable with their ability to experience pain at all but that's just a personal experience. However I understand why this is a step many people that care about animals take, this reasoning is why I was pescatarian for 15 years. More learning has led to veganism but that's a story for another day
2) Anthropods - I was recently doing some reading and my understanding is that we are not sure whether crustaceans suffer while being boiled alive. I got the impression scientists are split on this, some feel somewhat confident that they do feel the sensation of being boiled alive and some feel quite sure they likely don't. Again my personal approach is to abstain because there seems to be enough uncertainty and it triggers my being boiled alive mental imagery. This makes me wonder about insects in general, but for now I am focused on mammals.
3) Cravings - this I explored separately from veganism so it tends to be the first thing I wonder about when this argument comes up. So far I consistently read cravings are generally malleable, we crave what we make a habit of eating. I think of how certain cultures enjoy foods that other cultures find... questionable, like Surstromming the fermented fish, casu martzu the maggot cheese, or cheese is general actually.
Anyway, my experience has aligned with this. There was a time I enjoyed and craved meat in childhood. Once I stopped eating it at age 11 I no longer craved it. Now I find I experience disgust if I eat a vegan meat alternative that tastes "too much" like meat. This makes me wonder how many people would have a similar experience.
4) On the point that other animals can't respect our rights, I really enjoyed this because I never thought of it! I find myself preferring not to cause unnecessary harm, however. I figure in order to feel a sense of responsibility you need have the capacity to understand the concept. I guess this is why I don't hold babies to a very high moral standard. Aaaand rights seem to be a matter of opinion among adults anyway which is terrifying...
5) Lastly the concept of humane farming, which I was initially very interested in. I get the sense "humane" is used and understood loosely as well as a matter of opinion. One example: I was impacted when I read about the "humane" seal slaughter process on the government of canada website. It stated the standard process was humane then proceeded to describe live skull crushing. At this point I realized I was going to stop assuming we are all using the word humane the same way.
I just wanna say thank you for sharing this info even though youre not vegan, its very rare to see that. I remembered I used to hate all the aggresive vegans who their approach was like "you are a killer, etc etc" and it made me not going vegan lol. Now im 2 years vegan and I think the best way to help people who want to reduce meat consumption is just to share information
How did you turn around? We should really have a survey to see what really opens people up and stuff!
@@fromeveryting29 so when I moved out from my home country to USA I started to do my own groceries and my meals where basically chicken, ground turkey, eggs, and salmon. And sometimes when I was putting all the stuff in my fridge I asked myself about all the animals needed to feed every person and every family each day, each week, each month and then for the rest of their lifes, it is crazy right? So one day I just typed "how to eat a balanced vegan diet", "high vegan protein diet", "vegan bodybuilders" and eventually I realized it is not that difficult to get all your nutrients
@@creciendocondividen2 Interesting! I grew up vegetarian and was very conscious about the fact that animals were being used and abused for most peoples diet. It was an unspoken obvious thing in my family that "animals shouldn't be food" if they didn't need to be. So when I met a vegan when I was 21, and saw how easy it was, I though "well, that looks easy, and it is obviously the right thing to do, so I guess it's best if I just cut out milk and eggs. I cut those out before I even knew how terrible the industry was, thanks to my childhood values. I had learned from an early age that animals are worth basic compassion, and not being used as means to our trivial ends, so it was automatically completely obvious to me that I shoul be vegan, once I saw how possible it actually was.
Interesting how it happens to different people
Do you have tips for a regular Joe like myself to be vegan? I tried going vegan for a week, but after 3 days I kept feeling out of breath and *exhausted*. The last 4 days were hell on earth. I had the best steak and chicken of my life after that. Then I never tried veganism again.
I believe the greatest issue for me, though, is that soy, beans and gluten don't "agree well" with my digestive system, to put it mildly hahah
@@bva0 sure! I had the same issue lol it's because all that fiber intake shocks your guts, but after 2 weeks or so it will adapt to that amount of fiber ( which is good) and you won't have that issue. So I'll say maybe start adding a meal or two fully vegan, idk how many meals you have per day so I'm just giving random numbers, and each week you can increase those vegan meals and replace the meat on each meal, also you can go 1 day of a week fully vegan and the next week 2 days, etc. Rinse your beans! All the water that is in the can makes you fart a lot lol and be patient man, your gut will adapt to the fiber and you'll be good!
just realized that I like dr.Mike's personality so much more than the info he is giving for free even, I mean I would listen him talking on any topic. dr.Mike for president!
Probably a bit late but check his other channel for that
I really thought this was going to be another meme video like their "Is Big Ramy Natty?" video.
Same 😂
LMAO!
Big ramy is best natty vagan fitnesss influencer.
as a vegan who lifts weights i just started the video but already suprised that he is even addressing the ethics reasonably. but lately eat alot of quinoa with wholegrain pasta with spinach, broccoli. with some side veggies (extra colors) and throughout the day lots of oats with plant based yoghurt with blue berries and lots of fruits and some nuts.
How can yoghurt be plant based?
@@sumsar01 soy or oat based
your diet is literal poison.
@@brainwashedape493 nice name dude
@@sumsar01 It's faux-yoghurt. Similar consistency and taste, but the macros on them are terrible.
As a vegan I really enjoyed this video! Dr. Mike is so well spoken. I would say though, this seemed more like a 10 reasons to consider vegetarianism rather than veganism, as dairy and eggs weren’t mentioned! But great video still :)
Oops, I kinda just asked the same question because I overlooked yours, but yes, agreed!
Whey men vs soy boys.
@@aethylwulfeiii6502Whats your deadlift pr and how much do you weigh? 🤔
@@aethylwulfeiii6502 Whey is produced for babys, I think you missed something...
I was looking for the top comment about this issue as well, but logically extrapolating from his arguments, I would think he is very pro ethical dairy and egg harvesting in ways that protect the animal, does not artificially enhance their hormones, and humanely allows the animals to die once they no longer produce milk or eggs. With honey, as he argues insects do not have feelings and are purely wired on instincts, I presume he has no issue with harvesting honey in sustainable ways that protect and increase honey bee population as they are key pollinators and allow for better produce production and protection of biodiversity overall. With gelatin products, I would think he would be more open towards using it as a leftover of humanely killed animals to prevent wasting it, similarly with leather products. Not harvesting the animals solely for that but if an animal dies naturally or is humanely euthanized, preventing as much waste as possible would be preferred, as the animal is already deceased at that point, the onus is on humanity to be responsible for appropriately utilizing the remains, much like how we ethically harvest human organs to save lives. As most animals do not have specific habits concerning the rights of the dead, save for rare examples like elephants, utilizing the most of an animal carcass to prevent waste as a life has already been lost or taken seems to be the most responsible thing. Obviously with less farming in general and the increased improvements of vegan leather and advanced chemical engineering, needs for gelatin and leather have dramatically decreased as well and could be eliminated and only used when disposing of an already deceased animal. Similarly with other furs and pelts. IE: no fox, minx, or weasel farms, but perhaps if one is humanely hunted in the wild to protect pets, children, or decrease overpopulation, a strong argument could be made for pelts.
I just love being around other intellectuals that consider all choices and make their own decisions without animosity, but understanding, for the roads not taken.
Thank you Dr. Mike for being a voice of reason in the social media world of making everything dramatic and antagonistic.
Share his videos around so others can see! His viewer base is pretty much limited to "serious" science-interested bodybuilders and powerlifters. I would do it but I don't use social media.
Lol! Are you serious man?! “Intellectuals” consider both side of an argument.
@@psmtz
I thought he did in what he had to say. Was it logically bulletproof? Of course not, but the behavior he used was something I would like to see more of on social media.
What were your thoughts on the subject? Honestly curious to hear your opinion.
"Oh look how smart I am and how smart the people around me are also! I declare that!"
Extremely thoughtful, interesting, and worthy of being listened to by a lot of people.
I think there were some interesting arguments in there and he seems to argue in good spirit. But on a philosophical level it was a mess of thrown around ethical concepts. He sometimes argued against deontological arguments and sometimes against utilitarian ones and also valued extrinsic and intrinsic values against each other. I think for those who are not familiar with animal ethics the video probably just adds to the ongoing confusion.
When I heard about the dairy industry i was heartbroken. I gave up red meat in 2016 due to health and then a school mum told me about the dairy industry in 2019 and I instantly went vegan. I was very emotional and when you open yourself up to reality and more information about suffering I did go on a tangent. But that was 2 years ago, I can't make anyone vegan but I feel so much better and post educational information. Thanks for doing this video.
th-cam.com/video/A7sHlB4Yxb8/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/KKGXiFwux0U/w-d-xo.html
@@leniobarcelos1770 I watched the start until she started cooking meat. To be honest I don't think she's a vegan for the animals. I enjoyed meat but gave up after finding out about the dairy industry and as a vegan who follows other vegans you get to see more shocking things done to animals and even if I wanted to go back to eating meat I couldn't. I literally have nightmares from what I've seen. Also this girl seems to have issues that don't relate to veganism. I think she has hormonal issues and she didn't seem to have remorse about going back to eating meat. If I was going to turn my back on veganism I wouldn't be telling everyone and show myself eating a burger, maybe that's just me. Maybe she should of gone to a Dr first before trying to blame veganism, being plant based and eating a variety of food is important and maybe she wasn't eating enough fat??? But thanks for this, I like being kept informed xx
@@angeb7690 Okay. Good luck to you, then. Be well and take care.
That’s bizarre reasoning, I’m India dairy is consumed in mass, but cows and other dairy animals are regarded as sacred.
I went vegan not because of the killing, but because of the suffering. I grew up on a farm; my family were 3rd world peasants. We killed the animals because it was necessary for our survival but we never abused them. I just assumed for years that when we were talking about animal agriculture, it was the same situation as when I was a kid; small family farms where the animals were cared for. When a cow got pregnant, we didn't rip her baby away the day it was born leaving the mother grieving for her baby. It was like, "Hey great, another cow! More milk!" I saw a video of it and it broke my heart to see the mother cow grieving for her baby and with the knowledge that this happens to her over and over again throughout her life. That's when was like, "Ok, I don't want any part of this."
Except that's not the case.
@@casthedemon How is that not the case? What do you even mean? In all industrial dairy farming this happens to some extent.
@@gillhewerfamily6550 milk production lasts for years after having a calf. Cows do not need to be constantly pregnant. That's a myth. Also, yall are the same type to be fine with abortion, but oh no, not the cows. XD
@@casthedemonwhat do u think happens to the male species in the farming industry. Just think a bit critically bro.
@@Woah869 .....I grew up on a farm and our neighbor was a dairy farmer who sold to Walmart and other stores. This shit doesn't happen everywhere. Maybe at some places, but come on...think critically. Why would you waste resources? Businesses don't do that.
Hey Mike. This video played a big role in my decision to go vegan. Thank you for sharing your views in a logical and clearly well-thought-through manner, as always!
To me the biggest argument for veganism is that factory farming is out of control. The sheer scale of it is insane. It's bad for animals, the environment and for people. Large scale super-farms drive small scale family business farmers out of business just so humans can buy a $1 hamburger from burger king - when you pay little to no money for your meat, milk, cheese and eggs, you buy into a market designed to cripple farmers and animals. I am a veterinarian and I've seen farmers driven to suicide from losing their farm because they can't sell their products for what they are worth. 100 years ago people used to buy a lamb or a leg of beef and have it last a family all winter - meat was a luxury not an every day commodity. Now people expect to pay so little for it. It's sad.
Meanwhile let’s just ignore the environmental degradation caused by factory farming. Also citation needed on this your theory that people are less meat 100 years ago. That’s the opposite of reality - any level critical thought bares that out.
@@psmtz wait til you find out about what animals eat and how trophic levels work.
"buy a $1 hamburger"
And you know what's even worse? it's not really a 1$ because of all government money pumped into animal farming.
Money that should go for healthcare or schools is used as a fuel for private owned industry.
@Alenas Kvasninas what we did in the past doesn't justify what we do now
@@ThomasShatter wow! This one s literally the opposite of reality. You know what the government actually subsidies - CORN! So disingenuous just “Dr.” Mike.
Vegan for 12 years. Never felt better. Never am I going back to hurting animals unnecessarily. 💖💖
Hi Mike. I would LOVE for you to get Earhtling Ed on to discuss all of this. He's calm and logical about veganism in discussion and I'd love to see you guys discuss your thoughts on everything.
Earthling Ed is full of idiologic bs
While Earthling Ed would be calm and wonderful to have a debate with, unfortunately he weighs under 130lbs and doesn’t qualify for Dr. Mike’s conversation requirement. 😂
Now that would be something!
Second this!
@@Persto1208 What does weight have to to with a conversation about moral philosophy? If you're implying that vegans can't get enough protein and therefore ed is skinny then you're simply wrong because ed has always been skinny and you can consume a high amount of protein as a vegan without protein supplements.
Any incremental cognizant effort to shift the paradigm away from animal protein should be respected and encouraged imo
Why?
@@Bolt892 🤦🏻
@@Bolt892 watch the video
This is the most reasonable fucking statement I've ever heard in relation to veganism.
I love the uniformity in your facial and head hair . Number one length all around 🤙🏽
I didn't even notice. I thought I was the only guy who did that. :-D
that's basic jason statham for you. I am rocking that look like for last 10 years :D
So he probably just shaved it completely off about a week earlier ;P
As a vegan, I've never been harassed more about changing my diet than by people who still eat meat and dairy. I'm in insanely good shape, but they can't go seconds without telling me how I need to start eating meat and whatnot, despite being more fit and in better shape than 98% of the people here.
If that's you in your picture, you do not look healthier than 98% of people
Dr. Mike, I've been watching your videos for roughly a year or so now but haven't seen this video yet. This is the first time this video has popped up in the algorithm for me, and this is not the type of video I would've expected from the channel, but I'm absolutely loving it! Very educational, thought provoking, and entertaining! Learned a lot from this. This is a video I didn't know I needed!
This video and, especially, the topic makes me feel like I’m back in college. Such deep thinking went into making this lecture. Amazing stuff!
It's because he's a college professor lol
th-cam.com/video/A7sHlB4Yxb8/w-d-xo.html
@@johnkaminski7605 .ㅡㅡ
I appreciate the logical call to action at the end. Thanks for this analysis!
Love how measured this video is. Unexpected from this channel, but hardily welcome
Edit: Halfway through the video. I really didn't expect such a philosophical video from you. This is probably my favorite video I've ever seen on your channel
Awesome for you to make this video Mike. I agree with a lot of what you said, but I have problems with a few things you said.
I do agree with point #1, but the size and how much meat an animal provides matters. You rank killing cows as a "bigger bad" than killing chickens, but it would require a lot of chickens to be killed to provide the equivalent amount of meat as a single cow. You could argue the total suffering would be higher. Also, there are factors outside the killing of the animal which can cause pain and suffering to other animals and humans - bycatch kills dolphins, which you would probably rank above pigs, farming of cows is terrible for the environment and if it were abolished it would prevent human suffering from climate change.
#2: You explained why it's bad to kill humans with a low IQ from a practical standpoint, not from a moral standpoint. You said it would destabilize society, but what if it didn't destabilize society? For example, killing pigs in today's world doesn't destabilize society. Is that a good justification to eat pigs, even though they're highly intelligent?
#3: If a man managed to kill a crocodile that attacked him in the wild, that's self-defence, and it's justified. But what if that man instead captured crocodiles and breed them into the billions, locked them up in factory farms and had them endure massive suffering for humans to eat. Would the justification for all that be because they're assholes? No. If cows were very aggressive animals, it wouldn't make it more moral to kill them for meat because of the situation they're in (it would only make sense in the hypothetical room, the situation matters).
#5 Humans kill billions of animals and have enough nukes to destroy the planet many times over lol. So far, at least, humans have caused a net negative for life on this planet.
"if you hunt you're very morally defensible" - the justification you gave being overpopulation, and they'd probably endure greater suffering in the wild.
Overpopulation of old people with degrading IQ has a greater negative impact on the environment, and they suffer going into old age, why don't we hunt and kill them?
"Consider purchasing from more humane and environmentally friendly farming conditions" - This doesn't exist. An animal still gets killed very early on in its life on a "humane farm". Even in the most ideal scenario, being vegan would be the morally superior position. Secondly, the ideal friendly farm would have no financial incentive to exist, why would a farm be willing to let a cow live out it's long life span using up resources instead of killing it very early on when it reaches peak size? Thirdly, this isn't practical for the whole planet to follow, "humane farms" require more space and resources, a benefit of factory farming is that it's efficient and uses fewer resources per kg of meat. Fourthly, it's very difficult to know if a farm is "humane" and these standards are not followed a lot of the times. Cage free eggs could just mean thousands of chickens are in one big cage (a factory farm).
"if you care about animals, advocate for cleaning up factory farms first" - because of what I mentioned above, this isn't good advice. Also, it shouldn't be about what is the most effective at decreasing harm, it should be about advocating the right message. If me telling rapists to just rape women humanely decreased overall harm, I wouldn't say it, instead I'd tell them to stop raping women. Telling people to eat from "humane farms" and eat less meat reinforces the belief that eating meat is OK. It's a confusing message.
Beautiful Clarence
Response to #1, #2, #3 and #5 for Clarence. For #1 not sure if I’m being picky, but not farming cows won’t prevent the world from suffering from climate change, it will reduce the amount of change. I.e the simple action of not farming cows won’t stop the human suffering of climate change, but it can reduce the amount of emissions.
#2 Morality is very contextual unless you’re going by objective morality. I.e we can agree that for the most part killing of humans is bad, but in the context of war or self defence, it isn’t AS bad. So now in your example you just changed the entire context of human reality in which we don’t have the same society globally as we do now. So of course morality will change with different parameters.
#3 it would be a case of weighing the moral “bad” against the potential benefits of doing this farming. Which Mike is saying (I think at least), for animals that have limited capability to suffer/ feel pain, farming these animals have such small moral “badness” in comparison to the potential benefits we can get from doing the action of farming them, that it is either a net neutral or good
#5 you compared old human over population with animal over population (hunting), but you didn’t consider the fact that by this point of the video, he already established that killing humans is a no no for him because of the almost inevitable destabilisation/corruption of human society.
Curious if you’ve seen his conversation with vegan gains Clarence, he actually loosely touches on some of the points you make in it.
Great points for someone who equals pigs to people.
This is veganism at its best, you'd kill a person before killing an animal and you'd think you did the right thing.
Also, please go live in the woods if you're against all sufferings, cause even writing from your iPhone is destroying the environment.
Bunch of hypocrites. 😂
Nice points. In general it seems your counter points employ a different measure(#) to the particular measure (#) you are trying to disprove. Mike is going independently measure by measure and then adding them all together at the end.
Hey Mike. I've been vegan for about 8 years and started as one of the super traumatized / angry in your face ones and now 10 years later mellowed down a lot and dialed in at being a vegan at home and vegetarian outside. During that time I watched a crapton for pro- and antivegan videos. I'm serious, several thousand videos and documentaries. I like your video the best since it's very logical and doesn't rely heavily on questionable studies or black and white thinking. A big thank you!
Some thoughts though:
- You mentioned dogs when you talked about rights reciprocity and that they would understand. I think that's due to socialization. If you would socialize a pig or cow the same way they also would not want to hurt you and might even protect you. On the other hand think about humans that grow up as child soldiers or in street gangs. They will not probably not respect your rights.
I’m curious how much experience you have with pigs. A pig is an extremely dangerous animal. I live in a rural area and have known “city people” who have tried to raise pigs as pets. They realize pretty quickly that this animal is a threat, especially to their children. It will quite literally kill you and eat you.
I’m not saying we should torture and eat pigs. I’m just saying there is a big difference between a pig and a dog.
@@flabio7074 plenty of people with pigs as pets. They are highly social and intelligent animals.
What if we socialized the animals slaughtered - completely in vain - during the industrial farming process so you can have your produce? Would those animals start to matter to you then?
@@flabio7074 Were those pigs socialized with humans? Because you can say the same thing about wild dogs.
There are different kinds of domestication. There is domestication for socialisation (dogs), for food(pigs), for work (horse).
We don't eat social ol work, nor we use food one for work.
Love your take on the subject! It's nice to have someone who is able to analyze arguments for/against veganism without too much of a bias either way. I've been vegan for 8 years, but I really enjoyed your counterpoints against veganism as well as the pros. It's important to know both sides, and vegans (myself included) need to recognize the nuance of the subject instead of seeing it as black/white
Also, I'd love to see more videos on a more plant based approach to training! Just got into powerlifting and would be cool to see your take on how a plant based diet can affect strength. I've not had a problem so far, but I'm always interested in learning about how I can improve (while remaining plant based)
there is nothing special:
- increase protein to 1.25-1.5 g since it all plant based
- watch amino acid content of a given plant protein source
- pay attention to micronutrients and some other chemicals that come from animals (b12 and creatine are some examples)
Amino acid profile makes no difference in my experience. You get enough because you’re eating a lot of food and multiple types. Soy and hemp specifically already have a complete profile
@@si3333 you still eat 1.6g/kg. That’s what the outcome data shows in muscle growth. Just eat a varied diet with B12 supplements and you’ll be fine.
What do you keep your protien at?
The gram per pound estimate is still applicable, you might find you go a bit over or under depending on how satiating you find high protein veggies. You do need to have variety though, no plant based protein is complete of all essentials, but you can usually do a bean + anything else. I really like edamame and sesame in particular
Dr. Mike is so smart he will go vegan eventually. When you consider the health benefits, environmental benefits, and ethical benefits of veganism it's a no-brainer. Yes I know veganism is not a diet.
This is the most thoughtful analysis I've ever listened to. Congrats. Down to earth, very well explained. Will share with my friends.
Hi Dr. Mike, great video! However, I think you’re wrong about the argument from marginal cases (eating mentally disabled people and grandma).
The idea under discussion there is some natural property (intelligence, rationality, language, etc.) that guarantees moral standing to all individuals who possess that natural property, and that those without the natural property lack moral standing. To say that an individual has moral standing is to say that they count, morally speaking, *in their own right* (as opposed to mattering morally for some extrinsic reason).
A popular argument against veganism/animal rights is that humans matter, morally speaking, and animals don’t, because humans possess some natural property which animals do not (again: popular options are intelligence, rationality and language). The argument from marginal cases states that for whatever natural property you choose as the threshold for this moral outlook, some humans will fail to meet that threshold and therefore lack moral standing, which goes against our deepest considered moral judgments. So, we either need to bite the bullet and admit that some people don’t matter (thus abandoning some very central moral principles), or abandon the idea that there is some definite threshold. Or, as the vegan would argue, we should simply choose a property (say, sentience) which guarantees moral standing to both humans and (at least most) animals.
Your counter-argument is that treating mentally impaired humans as having no moral standing would destabilize society. Thus, we need to treat all humans as having moral standing for the sake of some important political goals. Fair enough. But realize that if this were true, it would not mean that these humans matter *for their own sake*. They would matter for the sake of an important political goals (the stability of society). And if an individual does not matter for their own sake, they do not have moral standing. They have a different sort of moral status altogether.
If this doesn’t seem problematic, consider that an animal farmer already thinks about animals this way. A cattle rancher doesn’t deny that a cow matters *at all*- they matter because they are important to the rancher’s livelihood. What the rancher would likely deny is that the cow matters *for it’s own sake*. So the argument you’ve made fails to secure moral standing for the mentally impaired, and more than a rancher’s financial interests secure moral standing for a cow.
I appreciate that you took the time to do a video on this and that you argued for your points carefully and in good faith. Also, kudos for incorporating some Eastern philosophical thought, which often gets neglected in academia. Great content as always!
Damn. You're a pretty smart guy.
what the trait you choose to claim it is not moral to kill animals for food?
@@sovietpigeon1364 thanks friend, but the truth is that I have just had the privilege of studying this stuff. Animal ethics is one of the most active fields of research in contemporary philosophy and there are a lot of hard-working philosophers producing and analyzing arguments about our duties towards the other animals. Hopefully, there are more discussions and videos like these popping up in the near future.
@@mikedemolisherSOS this is a contentious issue because there is actually no agreement about why humans have moral standing. However, my own judgment on this matter is that humans and animals matter because we have the capacity for living a good or bad life. By contrast, an organism like a flower can do well if it gets sunshine and rain in the right amounts, or poorly if it lacks these things or has too much of them, but the flower itself is not the type of individual that is the subject of its own life (it does not experience its biological life; there is nothing that it is like to be a flower). So I would argue that any individual that can experience its own welfare matters for its own sake.
@@doubleoblit doesn't that judgement imply that it is okay to kill for food some animals (which there are) that don't experience this? does it also imply that a person in coma have even less priority than some animals?
Wow. I thought this was gon be on the effect on building muscle or strength.
But there’s a lot of folks that wouldn’t hear these things otherwise. Good shit my g
He touched on that in the Nutrition for Muscle Gain series. As long as you’re getting enough protein (which should probably lean more toward 3g/kg bodyweight to account for the lower digestibility and quality of plant proteins) there really isn’t that much of a difference. He describes it as a few percentage points. That’s small enough that only high-level competitors need to worry about it.
(And if all the hours I’ve spent watching Full Day of Eating videos has taught me anything, it’s that even pros do a lot of suboptimal stuff.)
@@Magic_beans_ 3g/kg bw? That's ridiculous 😂 so your saying an avg 80kg man needs *at least* 240g protein? Bro, 1.6-2.2g/kg is optimal, any more is overkill
@@Lb-ri5wr That's the number specifically for vegans since plant-based protein sources have lower digestibility than animal protein sources, meaning the body uses less of the amino acids in plant based protein sources than an animal protein source when protein is equated. The increase in protein recommendation is to balance out this lower digestibility if you actually read their comment.
@@yesnomaybeso9144 source please
@@yesnomaybeso9144 Studies comparing vegans and omnivores eating equal protein have demonstrated equal gains. Please stop with this outdated idea that vegans need to eat one kilogram of protein a day because lOwEr QuAlItY.
You are incredibly well spoken. This video’s breadth and depth absolutely blows my mind
This was amazing thank you for this video. I am a new lifter and had not ate meat for 18 years. Recently to get more protein I started fishing and found my middle ground. Seriously man this was great.
oh shit, i wasn't expecting this
as a dietetics major who've taken some applied ethics as electives, I appreciate Dr.Mike so much for bring up this topic. most people in the field especially in sports nutrition will dismiss any plant-based diets without even given the topic some thoughts. For high level athletes it's for sure difficult to sustain a vegan diet(especially for females) but there are still things that they/ the team can do to reduce animal suffering. That being said, most of us recreational gym goers can do even more, and that starts with exactly what Dr.Mike is doing, which is to get rid of our biases and stop treating vegansim as purely memes (some are funny for sure) and start talking about the issue seriously and logically.
I realize I'm watching this 2 yrs after it was posted, but I thought this was great. I sort of wish something would have been said about the milk/egg farm situation, even just briefly, because vegans present that as being sometimes even less humane conditions than farming animals for meat. But very insightful! Thanks!
Have you seen the documentary "You Are What You Eat"? A short twin study through Stanford University, led by Dr. Christopher Gardner. Regarding egg production; there's a chicken egg farmer who's spotlit and a cattle rancher to name a few who describe their evolution away from their previous practices. With the egg farmer, in particular, it was downright moving to see what he came to for himself.
This was fantastic, thank you Dr. Mike. You touched on so many concept that I've only very superficially considered. Knocked it out of the park with this one. Plan to show it to many.
good to see that you can support something altho you are not into it.
This ability is a huge indicator of intelligence. 💖
Do You think about making an rp diet app vegan version?
That’s a big problem with the app imo. I’m not vegan, but it only counts proteins from “protein dense food” so like beans and all that is out, and it takes a lot of meat/fish to fill died requirements and it gets kinda ugh
Edit: by that i mean, it separates macros in your food picking section, so that you can’t pick beans and stuff and make it count for proteins, it only counts the carbs in them because they are in the carbs section, you can only pick animal products, edame pasta and protein powder for your “protein” macro section of the meal
Amazing video. AMAZING video Mike, you did a terrific job. I'm sitting here considering my life choices now (and I never watched a 1-hour long yt video before). Great achievements!
Nimai Delgado would be a brilliant guest. Brilliant that you have made this video. I believed since I changed to a plans based diet, I am more conscious of what meat is. It’s hard to explain but I think it definitely has something to do with our gut bacteria.
It's great to hear this from someone who I can trust not to be biased one way or the other. Thanks, Mike!
But he is biased, everyone is biased.
Nobody is unbiased but I would agree Mike does a great job of explaining new or different ideas well.
He's clearly biased in favor of rich people.
@@WolfgerSilberbaer LMAO. I love it. In a very balanced and nuanced video, there's always that one guy that takes exception and gets upset with one off-handed comment that's completely unrelated to the central message. Congrats! You are the official Dunce of the Day!
@@FirstNameLastName-gq3uv You're really stretching for something to be offended about, eh? 1) I neither took exception to nor was offended by the comments. You dreamt that up on your own. 2) I was not even commenting on the video, per se. 3) I made a truthful statement, with humorous intent, in response to somebody else's comment. But I guess there's always that one guy who just won't get the joke...
I love the fact that you went over the Name The Trait argument on your second point (you used the trait of intellegence). The thing is though, you can't say "oh well it wouldnt be practical to kill humans in this way because x y z" the practicality is irrelevent to the point. If it was just as practical to catagorise mentally challenged humans and farm them, would ut be OK? If not why? Practicality isnt an argument. The hypothetical assumes practicality is taken care of, the only distinguishing factor is species.
You are one of the vegans that are of net detriment to animal rights, as said in the end of the video.
@@gioabeleda3269 wheres the argument
@@Lb-ri5wr
Who knows. I think at this point people are so ready to draw lines in the sand, that even debating logic of scenarios somehow aligns you to Team A or Team B.
My God have we gotten so simplistic.
@@kozmo7 well there's team, "pro unnecessary animal abuse & murder" and team "against unnecessary animal abuse & murder". Same as, team "pro racism" and team "anti racism".
Iowadairyfarmer on Instagram thoroughly debunks every bs vegan argument ever made.
Great video, Dr. Mike. I'd love to see a follow-up video where you tie in the vegan/vegetarian diet with hypertrophy training, i.e., how to hit your macros and what supplements might be helpful. Keep up the good work.
Tofu has the most grams of protein per calorie out of literally anything. No commercial protein bar, none can match its macros. Maybe if you had straight up whey (which is not vegan but is vegetarian) mixed in skim milk might get you close. Which might not be vegan, but is vegetarian. Major advantage of these as protein source is low cholesterol.
@@aethylwulfeiii6502 That's actually not true. I'm looking at a tofu package right now...one serving has 7 grams of protein and 70 calories. Morningstar grillers, for example, have 16 grams of protein at 140 calories. But beyond that, there's only 35 grams of protein in the entire tofu package-- that's a lot of tofu and not all that much protein.
The best outline of all the aspects of veganism I’ve ever watched/read.
He’s probably right, but saying “pigs probably suffer less than humans” is a statement you just can’t say out loud at a dinner party. It’s a philosophical question about how much anxiety contributes to suffering, and the people that truly love all animals will just never entertain possibility. To vegans, all creatures share suffering.
Dr. Mike, your knowledge is a gift not just to us in the fitness industry, but to humanity as a whole. Thank you for always presenting the science and both sides to arguments in such an eloquent (and hilarious) way! I always look forward to your content and share your videos with many friends and clients.
Awesome video man. Love how thought out everything was. Very interesting content. Would love more on the philosophical/intellectual stuff. Thanks a lot
thanks so much for talking about this in such an objective/understanding way. it’s good to hear someone outside of the community talk about it
This came out of nowhere... We're waiting on the "10 reasons to consider Greg's cookbooks" video ;)
keep waiting. It is impossible to find 10 reasons.
Nah don’t need that one!
@@josephbrant9827 lmao
Wow, this is a video I did not expect to see. Love your ability to break such a complex and heated subject down to an unbiased simple-to-digest format. Thanks Dr. Mike!
Excellent vid. Great analysis. I've been leaning towards transitioning to only pasture-raised meats, maybe piscatarian, and this is definitely reinforcing my thoughts and encouraging me to make that happen.
Wow the amount of thought & effort that went into making this video is simply amazing!
I respect your level-headed approach towards veganism. I'd just like to add, because these people are often overlooked, that some of the harmed bystanders of the meat industry include slaughter house workers who are prone to PTSD and suffer from poor work conditions (in some part due to the high demand of meat). I'd like to see better conditions for all ag laborers, but I think one step in the right direction is cutting back on or refraining from meat. There is plenty of room for plant based ag labor, especially if subsides are redistributed, but that's too much for one post. Thanks for making this video.
I went veggie because white meat was giving me indigestion. And red meat was making me feel sick. So because I haven't done it for moral reasons, I basically piss everyone off. But obviously the moral side of it is amazing and I love animals and now I am the other side of the fence. Could not go back now. it's been 18 months and I have had indigestion and heartburn less times in that 18 months, than I would of in less than a month from eating meat. I look better and feel so much better to. No more feeling lethargic either.
This is the absolute best, most impartial, most logical video I've ever seen when it comes to this topic. Absolutely FANTASTIC work.
you are a good unbiased person on this subject with good logic and adresses every argument. probably the best video on this topic
More and more reason to love this man every day lol. If you become homeless I have a couch you can sleep on.
Great video. I do wish you would have brough up the inhumane treatment of cows and chickens in dairy and egg production as well, but I understand from an academic sense it would have made the video's structure more messy. In any case it's great, and quite rare, to hear a non-vegan fitness coach/athlete consider the merits of veganism. Just another reason I feel this channel is the best free source for fitness education on the internet!
Such a well considered and logical dive into the subject. Thank you for the informative and respectful discussion.
Unbelievably thought provoking! Loved a new clear perspective on this with the help of Dr. Mike making it make sense
Dr. Mike, I appreciate this video so much. I am eating a mostly vegan diet for a lot of the reasons you've gone through. It was a logical decision based off of ethical/moral grounds, but it was also based on nutritional needs and disease prevention. Thank you for going through this in an intelligent and well thought out manner.
Thanks for making this video Mike. Refreshing to see even the fitness influencers who do eat meat acknowledge the benefits of a vegan diet. I was always more convinced by the ethical and environmental factors, not sure why people need the reasoning to be about health. Game changers really fucked that one up, but glad it made veganism more popular at least.
On another note, have you considered reducing your meat/dairy consumption Mike? Would be cool to see you do so for a month or so and post some eating videos
This may be my favorite video of yours. Completely bringing the temperature down and discussing a variety of options people can do to try to improve animal welfare. Well done!
Interesting talk, thanks for putting the work in. I've been on the veggie/vegan end of the spectrum for 17 years and I'm not about to change that but it's good to hear a fairly balanced and thought through video on the subject.
Hey Dr. Mike,
I love your stuff as always.
I am plant based/vegan (environmental reasons) for the past year and a half only eating fish on a rare occasion (thinking that it’s environmental impact wasn’t really applicable).
Just wanted to ask if you have seen the documentary/film “Seaspiracy” as it corrected a lot of my thoughts on the environmental impacts of fishing.
I’ve only just seen it myself and it details a lot of the other bad things that the fishing industry has committed.
There are many good reasons against eating seafood, and most of them are easily available. Seas piracy unfortunately is 90% intellectual dishonesty and for science-minded people who pick up on fallacies easily, it hurts more than it helps imho. Same with Cowspiray, Gamechangers and other heavily biased documentaries.
What I love about this video and creators like Unnatural Vegan, is that they refrain from exactly this emotional, scaremongering angle.
@@smirbelbirbelCan you elaborate on the fallacies that you picked up on in Seaspiracy?
I might have to watch this 15 times. Lots of different fun tangents and information.
I'm a pescatarian not vegan but I have been vegan and really appreciate your respectful, balanced take on this. ❤
Such a deep analysis! Very interesting and thought-provocative, thank you!
Thank you for making this video, the timing couldn’t me more perfect for me. I’ve been trying to transition to veganism over the past few months. I would be very interested to hear what you think a vegan lifter should supplement with, because it’s very hard to find good information on this!
Me too, though I'm more thinking vegetarian, as there are tonnes of free range eggs avail near me (rural). Pretty much never eat meat for the last few yrs, and I'm still getting bigger and stronger. Certainly no performance loss, though I do think protein powder (also vegan) helps a bunch if you don't wanna pay super close attention to your diet.
gonna replace my dairy with plant-based alternatives and replace my protein powder with plant-based as well. other than that, I only have fish (which I'm not ditching any time soon) and the occasional egg (which I don't even like and just eat for the protein, lol). guess I'll be a pescatarian. Great video!
Lol why
@@Aron-ve5fe for the reasons expressed in the vid
You would be far better off eating locally raised beef from regenerative farms. Take a look at the book and movie “Sacred Cow.”
@@williamlanger9229 because the hairy я0ib daddy made a pc presentation ?
@@ericlancaster2889 smart man
Flawless logic.
Very well thought out & articulated.
Thank you.
DR Mike, this has to be the most well put and well thought out video on veganism I've seen so far!!! I'm plant-based, not all out vegan, but the fact that you delivered a solid argument for choosing veganism or plant-based diet without neglecting the counter arguments and grey zones, all the while not cramming it down peoples throats as most vegans are known to do. Bravo! I've been following your channel for the training tips for almost a year now. Although I've been doing a HIT approach to lifting, you bring along lots of good, intelligent and fun content I enjoy trying. I never expected to see this kind of video come out of your camp but I'm very happy you did this. I've been questioning my eating/diet choices lately as I'm not meeting my protein needs as I should. There would be so much more to ask you about on this point alone, but I do want to ask the following: I can't confirm hearing you mention anything about egg consumption in your video and where does it fall in your grid of standards. If you could comment, that would be great and much appreciated. Best to you. - Rich
Hey Rich! I highly doubt DR Mike is going to give you an answer, since this video is already over a year old.
From my pov I would consider eggs to be ”the least of evils” IF gotten from the right sources. So small local farms etc.
It’s great to hear that you are plant based! If you enjoyed this video I’m sure you would enjoy CosmicSkeptic’s video called ”A meat eaters case for veganism”
I’d suggest you take a look at that first before worrying about the egg stuff.
I checked to make sure it wasn't April as soon as I saw the thumbnail!
Thank you very much Dr. Mike and the RP Team for this fine discussion of logic and realness.
The ordering of the concerns are very valid, though just in my view at times a little anthropocentric, which can be hard to set aside, being human and all, and I agree with the net-positive balance of humanity's presence if we actually get our shit together like the intelligent and morally capable species we are.
I do disagree with the concept of "humanely killing", which is an oxymoron technically and still involves the slaughter of an innocent and sentient entity concretely. It likely would also require a lot of land, as you also mentioned. TL;DR really is eating a protein-rich plant-based diet.
Thank you again for your work, it really is appreciated and thought-inducing.
I really like this video, very interesting and enlightening!
I would probably add to this list somewhere around the nutrition part the health benefits of lower animal consumption / higher plant consumption (higher fiber intake, lower saturated fat intake, easier weight control, and other health promoting practices). This reduces suffering and costs for the individual, their loved ones and society.
Great breakdown. Would love to see a deep dive on the nutrition aspect.
You made some great points, others I disagree with. The biggest one regards commercial wild and farmed fish. Even if you don’t necessarily care about the fish - the industry itself has tremendous impacts on the environment/ ocean which will eventually catch up to humans
I would genuinely like to know what the problem with farmed fish is. (Not a sarcastic or confrontational question although it comes across that way)
That debate with Avi must have really rubbed you the wrong way lol. You were probably like: "Fuck it, I'll have to do this myself".
Awesome video as always. Unemotional, rational, nuanced and logical discourse is the way to go. Unfortunately, as irrational apes plagued by countless cognitive biases, we tend to think in a highly fallacious manner, to form a coherent picture of the world; not an accurate one. As most people cling to the illusion of the self/ego with free will, attached to an identity as a fixed entity, they no longer have ideas; ideas have them. So much of our uninspected, societally conditioned, extrinsically instilled as well as genetically and epigenetically influenced preconceived notions govern our beliefs, behaviors and values. Morality should not be confined to absolute truths and laws which lack nuance and consideration for context; most things tend to lie on spectra. Great job of conveying that.
I agree with almost all of what you said. Though I think you should clarify the definition of veganism. To me, it is a non-dogmatic philosophical perspective which seeks to exclude the exploitation and cruelty to sentient life as much as is possible and practicable.
Thinking out loud here: Would an inconceivably more advanced species, who view us the same we view insects, be justified in farming and exploiting humans? I suppose only if they farmed us in a way where we were uncapable of being aware of it, and suffering as a result. I guess the same could be said of most animals, but certainly the way we farm them today couldn't be further from that.
Minor point of contention: It's a bit of a stretch to say that the "humane slaughter" that goes on is actually very humane. It's even more of a stretch to say that it's morally almost on par with veganism. Certainly a step in the right direction, but still pretty bad.
Other than that, this video is truly commendable.
I think that advanced species concept was answered somewhere in the video. If aliens put you in their and let you live your best life, even if you were "imprisoned" would it really matter?
And in this case the difference between imprisonment and farming probably only lacks the slaughter as the last step. I think its humane enough. The other options is all the suffering that nature can give unto you, it does not seem more moral or human in the slightest.
I looked up that video after reading this comment and... yeah, this video is much more informative as far as pro vegan arguments.
Could you link the video? Thanks.
@@BlueDemon77 Just search “Mike Israetel Avi debate” and it should be the first video
The logical analysis of this topic was really excellent. Definitely something more people should take the time to consider.
Hey Mike. Thanks so much for tackling a sensitive topic in such depth and open mindedness.
Mike could probably start a podcast about crazy hypothetical situations, abandon RP entirely, and somehow be even more successful than he is now
Correct
What do you mean bunny rabbits lack the ability to hurt? What about the Killer Rabbit of Caerbannog?
Run awaayyyyyy!
As a vegan I really appreciate this video, good reasoning, compeling arguments, Mike is being very pragmatic and professional. If Everybody lived in the way of considering each point and trying to lean to the "better" side of the spectrum on each of them I'm pretty sure world would be a much better place.
This is the best video I have ever seen coming from RP and Dr Mike. Kudos!
This seems fairly close to the debate you did with VG!
I'd imagine that's the inspiration
Same thing happened with his “Weights vs. Cardio” video. Aligned pretty closely (both in timing and in content) with an appearance he made on Greg Doucette’s show.
Hey Dr. Mike. Thanks for this video. I don't nessecarily agree with every argument you make, but it's still very heartening to see. For a long time, it was very hard to get non-vegans and vegans to engage in discussions about veganism in good faith (for a variety of reasons). Great to see some cooler heads prevailing.
Phenomenal video love your videos on things other than fitness, I like those to ofc but these and especially your arguing to convince series are my favorite
Insanely good video. I wasn't expecting something so in depth!!!
One of the best videos I've watched on the topic.
Definitely something I've been considering, and who better to explain it than my favorite grass fed, super knowledgeable, natural bodybuilder 💪
He's natty?
@@mgray999 he is, my source? Just trust me bro
Hi Mike (or anyone reading this)! I just want to share my personal anecdote, for whatever it’s worth. At 41:24 you mention adults. I was 17 years old in -97 when I stopped eating all animals. I’m now almost 42 and have been vegan for 16 years and I’m feeling and looking fantastic, even better than back when I went vegan!
In recent years, I’ve been more and more interested in health and nutrition, but I went (and is still, of course) vegan for the animals, I didn’t know - or care about nutrition. I have not been supplementing with anything until last year when I started taking b12 occasionally (not because I was deficient , but because better safe than sorry, vegan or not). Well, I did actually try a bottle of vitamin D this winter, just as an experiment, but I didn’t notice any difference (I live in the dark and cold northern Scandinavia btw).
I know you are an expert at this, unlike me, but I can honestly say that I have not thought about protein even once during all these years.
My point with all this is, that although it is an anecdote, there is absolutely nothing special about me at all. I have no super powers, I’m not rich, I’m a product of two alcoholics (how’s that for a nutritional base in life, haha), I live in the northern Scandinavia... and I in fact had a pretty s***ty start in life with both MS, hypothyroidism, allergies (symptom free since going vegan btw!) So how this could be even considered “a challenge” to anyone, as far as nutrition goes, is beyond me. Unless, of course, you have problems, but that’s what modern medicine is for, it’s not to sustain a few vegans.
Great video!
I'd love to see an entire video break down on your thoughts regarding
why fish/crustaceans/insects either can't or barely experience suffering.
-7yr vegan
Great video Mike. Been vegan since 2016 and I thought this was a pretty fair take on veganism overall. You’re right in pointing out that there is a spectrum in all this shit.
Love this video. Can’t wait for the future🌱🌱
This is an incredibly well thought-out video. Thank you.
Seriously thank you so much for this video!!! It's so nice to see a fitness-related channel actually talk about the ethical side :^D