@@outrider5896he might be able to actually beat goku since tadc characters are unable to be damaged letting Jax chip away at goku's stamina forever until goku loses.
I already knew Jax is a jerk from the pilot and i don't understand why people simp for him, but you know who else is a big Tumblr sexy man before Jax? It was William Afton the child murderer from five nights at Freddy's. Yeah for some reason the fandom simps for evil purple men in rabbit suits.
I think people like romanticizing asshole characters because of the whole “there’s more to him” trope that’s been around forever (with a lot of roots in the whole idea of a woman “fixing” a man, when in reality just ditch the fucker), and it’s also a way to rationalize being attracted to that sort of shithead charisma (like that’s why I like Jax; he’s a massive shitter, and I think he’s funny. I don’t simp, I hate his guts, but he’s interesting and funny to watch, and I think he’s great). Plus, a lot of the fans who are younger aren’t quite as good at differentiating between “liking an asshole character because surely he isn’t an asshole” and “I like this character because he’s an asshole”.
@@monroerobbins7551 which is why I hate the Gacha FNAF community so much. I hate that they make William Afton this misunderstood UwU sad boi who killed children because "Tragic Past" when in reality he's an irredeemable murderous As$hole! They make an interesting villain/antagonist into a pathetic sad boi.
@@monroerobbins7551 Which is why i avoid the Gacha FNAF community they made William Afton an interesting villain into a sad pathetic bad-boi Tumblr sexy man. Now he's less threatening/interesting but cringe and boring. And since the second episode of TADC came out i begin to like Jax because now the fandom realized that he's an As$hole 😂
He's not the first person to fall victim to this. Anyone remember Jeoffry from GoT? The bratty teen king who got poisoned? Yeah. He quit acting as a result of his terrific acting for such a terrible character, something that we few *neanderthals* cannot seem to fathom nowadays. I'm just thankful that Valentino's VA isn't subjected to that same hate for playing a canoncially confirmed r*pist in Hazbin Hotel.
@@nevaehhamilton3493 my guess is that hazbin hotel is watched less by kids? Probably because the show requires Amazon Prime, rather than being fully available on YT. And on prime it's easier/more likely that parents see the history, while it's very very easy for kids to watch things they shouldn't on YT and then comment things they shouldn't on a secret social media acc. At least I'm really hoping it's dumb kids pulling this harmful nonsense, unaware or real consequences...
I just find it really funny how people thought Jax was gonna be a sarcastic jerk and that he had a heart and actually cared for some of the other circus members while in actuality he's just a deplorable little shit that allowed a monster to destroy an entire kingdom because he was feeling silly and when he didn't get to kill anyone himself he was so incredibly disappointed. I hope Gooseworx makes him commit an actual war crime on screen and it's not played for laughs or jokes and it makes everyone go "what the hell is wrong with you" when they see him do it !! As someone who spends a lot of time in fandom spaces, I get it, I sometimes latch to my headcanons and forget they aren't canon, but it's mostly just for their appearances and actions, like J from Murder Drones, I headcanon her as being Chubby since I saw fanart where she was so my brain just defaulted to that so whenever I see Canon and see she isn't Chubby I go "Why aren't you fat... Oh yeah I forgot"
@@zillycat8534 I heard the "Jax is an NPC" theory and I kinda like it as an explanation for his behavior, explains why he's so apathetic, but still during Kaufmo's funeral it seemed he was remembering something (he was looking to the left for a little bit), maybe the death of someone he was close to, so maybe this behavior is his own way of grieving.
I like to think since the setting is supposed to be like a video game, Jax is supposed to be those players who just cause chaos and try to break the game and choose all the mean options
They thought they would get Sans, a lovable, jokey nihilist with an existential crisis, who's secretly protective. Instead they got Flowey, a sociopathic jerk who's willing and excited to hurt others and cause chaos because he's perpetually bored and knows he can get away with it because nothing he does 'really' matters.
As someone who’s been a Jax hater from the start, this has been an interesting experience for me. I hated him because of how he treated Gangle, plain and simple. When the second episode was released I actually appreciated his character for being an unlikable asshole instead of a “he’s just misunderstood” (which I would have screamed into a pillow if that was the reason) Something I was shocked about was the people that turned on Jax, were his simps. For a good minute I thought “Oh good, people aren’t simping for him anymore and seeing his red flags” only to be slapped in the face with how this is apparently character assassination?!
fandoms' abilities to turn any character (mainly male ones though) into a soft "oh no wait he's just depressed and misunderstood!! :(" sad boi, is unmatched lol, nothing wrong with it persay but it does get annoying Mostly because it encourages forgetting what a character was originally about-
i don't even watch TADC and im still sighing watching this shit go down. sometimes a character is just an asshole and that's okay, and you can't yell character assassination after a single episode. it will never cease to both amaze me and make me cringe how fandoms fall in love with what's basically a glorified oc using canon as a faceclaim but god i want it to end so badly. and i say all this as someone who enjoys my characters turning nasty after trauma and having to learn to trust and appreciate the people that refuse to give up on them.
It feels like Digital Circus is a commentary on gaming in general in which case Jax seems to be to be a commentary and reflection of the general gamer who just wants the violence and does not care about the effect it has on others.
*yeah*, jax has the energy of a gamer who starts a game specifically to cause as much destruction/in-game suffering as possible. he’s like the patron saint of minecraft griefers and people who come up with increasingly-inventive ways to kill their sims
Yeah that’s basically how I interpret Jax, just an insatiably violent agent of chaos who just shows up with the explicit intent of causing as much destruction and suffering as physically possible.
As someone who only just recently watched TADC for the first time, I find it extremely funny that episode 2 was the point where a lot of people started disliking Jax, because to me, that was the point were he became my favorite character (for now anyways). I guess I kinda saw episode 2 as a DnD campaign and from that perspective, Jax is basically that one chaotic evil murder hobo who just wants to wreck everything in sight, DM's plans be damned. Yeah, he'd probably be absolutely insufferable to actually be around or play with, but I'll be damned if I don't think it's funny.
Episode 2 being describe as a DnD campaign is the most accurate description I heard for it. But fr tho, Jax just felt like that one player who make their character do the most chaotic and unapologetic evil shit ever but the other can’t really do much about their behavior other then witness the chaos.
Had a similar experience, I only started watching after ep2 came out and found the discourse around Jax pretty funny; I definitely agree with the DnD angle. The pilot (whether people realize it or not) technically has higher stakes than ep2, since abstracted kaufmo is more of a threat than Caine's daily adventures. I like to think of Jax almost like the egyptian god Set/Seth: causes most of the problems but will be helpful if "the world" is at stake because it's no fun if the world is gone
Idk what the context is to the character, but if they’re the only queer character and/or them being bi is presented as a way they’re bad, I can see why that would be demonising.
Fandoms are about meeting people with a common interest. You just shouldn't expect to be friends with everyone and it also doesn't mean the safety rules of the real world don't apply!
Fandoms as a whole are stupid in my opinion. The only reason why I do it is just to fit in, knowing damn well I never will. It's even harder as an autistic person, and many autistics are essentially outcasts outside of any "fAnDoM".
Sometimes I wonder if people get upset about an asshole just being an asshole because A) you’d have to explain to yourself why you liked a character that was an asshole, which may require introspection that they aren’t willing to spare, B) they see an asshole and think “there’s gotta be a reason, some depth that makes him somewhat understandable”, cause in their heads, they rationalize that people don’t just start out as an asshole, and/or C) they’re just really into the “asshole that secretly has goodness in their hearts” trope, so they’re disappointed that an asshole is just an asshole. I think more than anything, looking at the roots of inspiration, “I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream”, it may help clarify why certain things are the way they are. Circumstances are unfair, characters are assholes just cause they’re assholes, NO ONE is really happy in this world, and that’s purposeful. There’s not really meant to be a silver lining in every character. Plus… genuine thing: what’s more realistic, an asshole that’s secretly nice when you pry hard enough and you’re somehow lucky enough to see it, and somehow you’re able to build a better bond after that, or a guy is just a dick and a bit of a sadist, and you don’t really get to find that “better part”, because it just ain’t there, or it isn’t what you expected. Also, isn’t a character that’s just an asshole just as interesting? Like, you can wonder “why the fuck are they like this” without having to rationalize bad behavior, and you can enjoy an asshole character without trying to pardon them. Sometime’s an asshole is just an asshole, and you don’t have to condone a character’s bad behavior to enjoy it.
The thing that makes me chuckle the most about Digital Circus being partially inspired by IHNM is that Jax is more of a hateful jerkwad than the character who's in the same general role of "AI/computer that runs the world" that AM fills. Digital Circus (so far) does not have a Hate Computer. It has the angriest bunny boy to ever exist instead, and I think that's incredibly fun.
i definitely think the latter two reasons are probably the biggest ones the first one is just kinda sad, people shouldnt be ashamed to like bad characters lol
Remember a character from a game I played, he is a jerk, but at the time he didn't had a meaningful appearance story wise and when it happened? People were like "where is my soft nerd boy?" or "he isn't like that, they changed him!" [guess why this reactions] and he was already shown being a jerk but people bended it backwards and claimed that he was a tsundere and would act like that specially for his "himbo boyfriend" [why everything needs to be about ships?]. No need to tell that canon showed the opposite of what they believed and they got angry amd tried to cancel the character for being a jerk.
Well, for me it's like this: I enjoy characters that are secretly good and just act out because then I can look forward to an arc of learning to be better, growing as a person and dealing with their issues. If a character is just a jerk, though, they immediately feel more static. And while it's perfectly fine for an antagonist (case in point - Jack Horner from "Puss in Boots: Last Wish"), a protagonist or close to that character just becomes NOT interesting to me. I just want them gone as a result, so that we could focus on "better" characters instead, instead of this random irrelevant jerk who is just being a nuisance. Besides, I kinda treat all media I consume in an escapist way and a jerk who doesn't have redeeming qualities and isn't in the role of an antagonist from the get go is just too realistic and breaks my immersion. I come to fiction to escape these jerks, I don't want to be forced to fantasize a fictional character's torturous demise that I'd like to inflict upon them!
@@annanas9122 and that’s completely fair and your prerogative! Taste is a personal thing; the big difference is knowing the difference between “I don’t like this character, kinda wanna focus on the ones I like”, and “I don’t like this character because it doesn’t match my headcanon, AUTHORS FIX”, if that makes sense. I find complexity in the jerk characters to give them more texture; that can be negative texture, like the levels of depravity they’ve gone through or the complexity of their schemes, or positive texture, like their past making them feel they need to be a prick, or originally being just an average dude before going downhill. But then again, that’s just me, and I also like the asshole character who does have some good aspects to them. That’s the fun thing about discourse; we’re allowed to like different things and even disagree. The big difference is respecting the other person’s autonomy, and being open to discussion.
fandoms can be a double edge sword. For any community. They can be the most sweetest and supportive group. Or most vile and miserable group. I get some people can be very supportive towards something but it can develop into something possessive. Thats what I think is happening for these characters. I agree these people had high standards of these characters and when their are different from their headcannons, blood is gonna be spill. Some people can’t accept something be just silly headcannon. Ugh don’t get be started on the shipping. People can go too far. As a shipper myself, it’s embarrassing.
Unfortunately, we managed to get stuck with the bad portions of the TADC fandom. And it's never going to improve. At this point, I just wish Gooseworx cancelled the show when she got the chance to, because I have a good feeling that Gooseworx regrets creating TADC. How about we all agree that fandoms suck and they shouldn't exist!?
@@nevaehhamilton3493 fandoms do deserve to exist; you dont have to like them. but technically fandoms have existed since people have shared stories and discussed them with others. its a double edges sword, and sometimes uncontainable/uncontrollable, but in the end its human nature for peopleto come together over certain likes and beliefs. there is no stopping that, like, at all. so one should do the best they can to make such spaces as safe and enjoyable as they can. TLDR: Fandoms are weird, but a part of human nature and there is no getting rid of them, so lets do the best we can.
It will never stop being funny to me that people were so down bad over a pair of floating glasses that they were downright betrayed and hurt when Hotel Transylvania revealed he wasn't this drop dead prettyboy they tricked themselves into believing he was.
And if you like Deltarune, then check yourself into a mental hospital, because the entire Undertale fandom is garbage and no one should be allowed to participate in it. The game isn't even that fun to play, anyway.
@@nevaehhamilton3493 I respectfully disagree. Deltarune is fun to many people and liking it doesnt mean youre insane. Just cos a good percentage of the community of both fandoms is bad, you cannot say that a person who enjoys the game is bad.
As someone who is only active on TH-cam and doesn't look into AUs or OC(inserts) from Undertale and Deltarune, all I see from the fandom is cool as all heck music remixes, music videos and sometimes entirely new pieces. It's so cool. I'm aware there's a bad side to every fandom but don't forget a lot of them are awesome.
I found the hatred for episode 2 Jax to be stupid. When I saw him in the pilot I could tell he was meant to be a jerkass Bugs Bunny. So, when I saw him in episode 2, I laughed at how much of an asshole he was!
tbh i actively want jax to get worse as a person. i just like the narrative of The Worst Guy Of All Time being subjected to computer-generated horrors beyond his comprehension
I really enjoy engaging in fandom, fan created works is how I've been introduced to some of my favorite pieces of media. I believe that engaging in fandom is about keeping a careful balance in who you interact with.
Yeah, and finding the “people who enjoy the content and want more/to explore different aspects”, as opposed to “people who want to completely change the content and get mad when people don’t agree”.
Exactly!! The best way to interact with fandoms is to curate your internet experience. You don't have to interact with everything and everyone that's presented to you. Find yourself some reliable people to fall back to when things get too hectic.
@@BloomBlanche or we can just touch grass and stay the hell away from the show, because we should not be trusted with anything related to those shows? We need to punish fans more for those kinds of things!
@@nevaehhamilton3493 The road to hell is paved with good intentions my friend. I've seen far too many people over correct and police others to the point of genuinely harassing and sending death threats or suicide baiting. Just disengage and block those you don't like/don't want to interact with.
11:45 What you say in this part also reminds me of the TOH community when Hunter was introduced, and a lot of people started shipping him with Edric, Amity's brother, for the mere fact that 1: they thought it was cute and 2: they both ware the same age, but then they were pissed off with the revelation that Hunter and Willow would be endgame, hating the ship for whatever reason like the age difference(two years, which isn't a big deal), the fact that it was "forced" (at the time they had only two to three episodes together) or that the it was "homophobic" because many headcanons have him as gay without even a confirmation from Dana (same thing with Willow, I literally saw people saying she was a lesbian but there was never any confirmation of that!)! and now it is confirmed that Hunter is bi and Willow is pan. Seriously, I thought Hunter x Edric was cute, but at the same time they NEVER interacted, so it wasn't a very likely ship.
Yeah, that was such a bizarre thing to watch happen, especially such vast hatred to a rather harmless ship. Sometimes people gotta remember sexuality headcanons are ok, but they aren't canon and if they're proven wrong that's not a reason to chew out a creator like that.
I honestly never cared for the ship of Hunter and Edric. I don’t hate it. But it just was there. Ya know? Huntlow on the other hand I grew to absolutely love!
Wonderful video as always Apollo. I didn't know people were upset about Jax, especially when it's pretty consistent with episode one. Him leaving Pomni and Ragatha behind, constantly trying to annoy or get under someone's skin. In general, I feel like yeah, it's only episode 2, the character hasn't deviated or shown us anything different from the previous episode, and the main MC even seems to dislike him. All in all that's just how the character is. Sometimes you're meant to dislike someone in shows, I feel like there's a bit of viewer entitlement going on of wanting everything the same, which doesn't make for entertaining media.
And plus, sometimes an asshole character can be enjoyable to watch, and you don’t have to like them. Like, “oh wonder what that shithead’s gonna do”, that sort of thing.
the Jax controversy feels exactly like the Stella controversy. I'll give you the skinny. in Helluva Boss, there's a character named Stella. she's the arranged wife of Stolas. after his affair with Blitz, she's been beyond pissed at him. in season 1, we only ever saw her angry at Stolas for what he did, but she never said she was mad because he slept with someone other than her. I'll get back to that in a minute. when season 1 drew to a close, fans started developing a headcanon for Stella, depicting her as the victim in the situation. however, Season 2 confirmed that her and Stolas's marriage never had any love at all, and him cheating on her felt like an act of triumph. yet now the fans were pissy because Stella isn't the way she was in their headcanons. and now something very similar is happening with Jax.
The difference is that HB and HH tend to villainnize women and that almost every guy gets depth but them. Even worse is that Stolas is genuinely a terrible person too but the show never, ever, bothers to portray it for what it is and even acknowledge it. How she has male characters similar to Stella but are treated better (or made silly instead of getting the harsh but deserved treatment). Oh and also that objectively, in canon and stated by the show, Stella did get a lot of shit and got dealt a shit hand in life. Parts were retconned, she wasn't originally a terrible mother to Octavia, she used to be very upset that Stolas cheated on her. I have no doubt that her being sent off to a richer and more powerful family to get married, against her will just like Stolas, will be written in a way to take away that sympathetic factor. That's what Vivzie always does. She sees that fans notice bits of lore she puts in and focus on something she doesn't like so she adds something to destroy it, often clumsy and therefore angering people instead of getting them to go "oh so that's how it is instead, interesting". A silly example is how she despises Chalastor in HH and shoved a moment in the full series to establish them as "father-daughter", even though it makes no sense and didn't get anything to portray it, to get them to shut up. The result? Lots of fans instead thought that Alastor was bullshitting to piss off Lucifer, sometimes with the interpretation that he hated people more powerful than him. Now, I don't care for the ship but her course of action wasn't just stupid, it was done badly. Anyways back to Stella. It's a culmination of things and yearning for a better written character and a minimum of nuance. Had Vivzie written her better, I doubt as many people would have a problem with her showing Stella as worse and worse every time she's on screen. God, she could even take a page from their version of the character, as she has often done, and used it to build Stella as a kid who was despised by her family, thus throwing tantrums and being a demon child, and so was married off to get more power. Then, since she already was unstable, she only got worse as a person. With this, she's a victim of circumstances but she still sucks. You get an escalation for her character (I mean Stolas openly thirsting for an imp brings their family shame and hurts their reputation, it doesn't even take that much to get a bad abusive person to lash out) and you acknowledge the established circumstances around her. It even works to make Stolas more sympathetic: he was a pawn too and was deliberately stuck with someone who would inevitably hurt him and had to deal with Stella's increasing resentment and anger. To add to their dynamic her blaming him for what happened, for not caring about his position (iirc it's coveted enough that him being seen as weak could be dangerous), for a magnitude of reasons. Maybe he tried being nice and she couldn't stand it. Maybe he was neutral and that made her furious. But there is establishing circumstances to excuse a character and there is establishing circumstances to explain a character. You can't blame people for wanting the latter. It's often proof of how much they care for the show and want more. HB is also very soap opera-y so ofc they want more drama 😂 Nothing better than exploring rich people shit/the messes royalty makes for drama! (/nm and /gen btw, personally I just like Ozzie and Fizz, they're cute and always well written. I have my own gripes with the show and the fans (do they really not see how every single time, Blitz is happier with everyone BUT Stolas? Even if they're endgame, they are nowhere near the point of being together healthily. I wish it was a more widespread sentiment so that Viv would take her time and get them to completely start over because damn they would need it!) and I don't care for Stella. I see what she could be but she's so irrelevant and just a narrative device that I don't care for her as a character lol
honestly to me at least people were more at least annoyed with the lost potential of what she could be. she didnt have to be redeemable nor have a tragic backstory shes just needed to be a character that was more than “angry and abuses stolas”. i think my main issue with it is becuase her only purpose is to make the audience feel bad for stolas and see him as a “precious prince” who did no wrong. shew only serves to push sttolas and blitze together as an excuse to why him cheating was okay. id say its more of porr writing issue
@@Actualbowlofsoup But isn't that exactly the Jax problem? People expected the character to be something they were never intended to be. Sometimes "angry and abusive" is legit all you want in your villain, and looking back it's pretty clear that Stella wasn't intended to be anything other than an antagonist. *If* it also makes Stolas affair more believable, then good. That's how you do writing to make characters' actions make sense. Do I personally think that Stolas should have divorced her 15 years ago? Yes, but if characters always made the right decision it would be bad writing.
@@helenanilsson5666 id say its different with jax, in the pilot hes always been an asshole the only difference here and episode two is that he was here for longer. stella never got that, she was an asshole no doubt but you never really knew why, and by season 2 where the “big reveal” as to why shes like this its just “i like tormenting you lol”. im not upset shes evil, more over that they presented it poorly. adam is better example of a villain like this, we see him countless of times be an asshole, that annoyance builds up with the audience and when hes killed you feel satifaction(although i do wish it was charlie out main portagonist to do that feels weird to have the gimmik character do it but alright). Stella however rarely got that. we have 2 scenes before we see Stolas stand up to her, one where she is angry that Stolas cheated with a lower class demon(given the pilot as well as season two confirming it, she was embarrassed in front of her friends too) and the second of her referring to him as a “cheating prick” implying she DOES feel anger for the cheating. these don't accurately give us anything about her character nor make the scene with her and Stolas feel satisfactory. the show couldve gave us more scenes with her being rude and an asshole because from what we knew she was genuinely upset at what Stolas did, but when season two arrived we see that all thrown out the window. She loudly proclaims how awful Stolas is so keeping her image means nothing and she says she enjoys tormenting Stolas so it's obvious she didn't love him or at least care for the relationship so the “cheating prick” means nothing now. All this buildup and for what? why say these things and then discredit them now? you could say that this is the moment the audience can build up hatred for her but in a single episode? with already so much to take in? thats barley enough time really.
I love him too 😄He's fun to watch. He's definitly not a good person, but he is a good character. He's entertaining and is taking action. Story would be different without him
Im sorry, but getting angry about something that was REMOVED before release or about something not fitting in with ones headcannon is just too much for me. The thing was removed/didnt even make it to fruition. It doesnt exist. Its finished already. Its not even beating a dead horse, its digging for bones. Then beating up the bones because the bones once stood next to a person who would eventually turn into a criminal. It just doesnt make sense unless you dont care whether it makes sense or not.
I have been in fandom spaces for many years and I have seen my fair share of chronically online people going out of their way harassing people for shipping, policing people over fan art, and making unnecessary callout post on random users just for following someone that they don't like. I wish there is a rule online where if you're in a fandom don't make it as a personality to the point it will hurt other people. I have see people leaving fandom because of these chronically online people and it make me sad. Fandom is meant to be fun and a small escape.
It is tragic. So many good things like art and fanfics being made can be ruin by anonymous bullies. Despite it I still stay as it seems like in many different fandoms, drama repeats. but I try to see the good. Sadly Steven Universe was ruin for me since that artist was bullied into attempting at their own life due to drawing rose skinny. So I don’t touch that ever again.
I feel like a big part of the “bullying creators to get what they want” scenario stems from what happened with the first Sonic movie. People saw that if they barked loud enough, they could get creators to change what they want changed. They fail to realize that Sonic’s design was changed out of fear of profit loss because it was Paramount helming the distribution. This should not work with indie productions as creative freedom should lie with the creators, not the mob of fake fans
From my personal experiences, fandoms have never been fun. Just enjoy the shows, movies, and games you love without engaging with terminally online people. You'll be much happier.
@@CheeseyWitchyeah same!! I met one of my best friends because we both liked wings of fire, and she basically introduced me to everybody in my friend group because of that!!
And you didn't even mention WD Gaster, the Undertale character whose only canon existence is being a super rare easter egg that instantly vanishes when you try to talk to him (and the entity that does that isn't even 100% confirmed to be him), meanwhile the fandom has gone wild with this guy making him into his own brand of Tumblr Sexyman/Troubled Scientist. Frankly I hope Toby Fox never had any plans for him, because it's guaranteed that they won't meet the fandom's expectations of him. Personally I hope he ends up with more of a funky creachur aura
Honestly, as someone who is dating someone with her own interpretation of Gaster, I hope that the character doesn't exceed the "weird meta commentary on out of bounds, glitching, etc. easter egg" bubble either. I respect Toby as a creator, so I'm sure that he would do fine if he fleshed out the character more, but its been so long since Undertale came out that I wonder if it would be possible to meet even laid back fans' expectations.
I want him to be legitimately desperate and deeply traumatised from being ‘shattered across time and space’ because let’s be honest, if there’s one thing the undertale fandom DOESNT do, it’s address trauma beyond throwaway tortured backstory or some plot point for their Y/N fic.
Honestly, I hope he stays the creepy, ominous genius he comes across as in the follower dialogue and Entry Number 17. It would help him be juxtaposed to the rest of the cast. But, if he is just as silly as the skelebros, that would be an incredible subversion of expectations, something Toby does very well.
gaster is definitely _not_ going to suffer from people's expectations. for the first 2 years "gaster" was just a name attached to a bunch of interesting mysteries that don't really point towards anything characterisation-wise, and then with deltarune we only have more mysteries that concretely only tell us he has some agency. the events surrounding his disapearance can be infered to be anything and his personality might as well be one of a black hole. This basically led to him being litterally used differently in every signle theory/fan fiction/AU/animation/etc that's not to mention the fact that the unknown limit of his ability makes him the perfect candidate to be given any mcguffin necessary to kick nay story off, leading to him being even more involved in stories that don't need him which further increase the plurality of interpretations of his character. there's simply no way that he couldn't meet the people's expectations when the fandom is ready to accept him in the role of an uncaring scientist, a kind father, a tragic figure, an agent of good/bad, a mastermind manipulating everything from the shadows, an incomprehensible higher being, someone stuck in a power struggle over the entire world, just some creepy easter egg, etc, etc
Probably the saddest part of the fandom's reaction is that Gooseworx actually anticipated this with their video "POMNI WAKE UP TIME TO GO ON AN ADVENTURE" when Cain mentioned the "violent shipping wars that we'll be powerless to do anything about!"
The Fandom and Jax reminds me a lot of how the cricket was to Jack Horner in Puss in Boots the Last Wish. Cricket was acting as Jack's conscious and tried to see any good in him. Meanwhile Jack was this despicable monster who didn't care for anyone. Not his employees, not animals, not the cricket, etc. His "tragic backstory" was he grew up with "useless crap" like having a good family and a thriving business. Also he was willing to sh00t a puppy (Yeah, in the face! Why?) Then when Cricket found out he's an irredeemable monster, Jack's like "Oh oh, what took you so long, idiot!!" Yeah that's what this reminds me of. The fandom WANTS to see good in Jax and meanwhile Jax would be the type to tell his fans "What took you so long?"
Hey, I love Jax 'cause he's an ass. Guess what guys? He stayed an ass. I can't believe it. Shocking. Horrific. Character's being in character is the most deplorable thing to ever happen.
I remember watching TADC, and taking a what character are you quiz, and getting Jax, and honestly being shocked by it. Cannon vs Fannon was something I think I clued in on for the series very early on, even if I didn't realize it
One of the worst elements of modern fandom is the weird sense of ownership over the work to the point that they feel entitled to demand that the creators bend to their whims, and if/when they don't, they resort to all kinds of nastiness. I didn't think it'd ever get worse or more petty than the old "90% of the pros came from fandom & all have beef with each other" scene in comic books, but at least they weren't doxxing each other & threatening death as a default reaction. It's honestly something that makes someone (i.e. me) not want to share any creative work, since that kind of fan conduct just kinda feel inevitable.
This is why it's risky to do the thing that Goose and Vivziepop did: Put a pilot out for the internet, and then let it sit there like a rotting lemon. By the time you actually get to release ANYTHING else related to the series, the internet will already have stolen your show from you and you can either play into their expectations or face the wrath of an angry mob who didn't get what they were expecting. And the longer you make them wait, the more intense the reactions will be when something doesn't look like they wanted it to
It's not really a risk so much as it is a terrible mistake. At least Goose is willing to take the shitty parts into stride, while Vivziepop just cannot, to the point where she couldn't handle any form of criticism for a long time, even though she has since improved from that (though, that isn't to say she doesn't still have a long ways to go). I have the utmost inkling that Gooseworx regrets making this show, and you can't convince that she doesn't. Because if I released my cartoon pilot to the world, and let it sit there long enough for humans to absolutely taint it with their bullcrap, I would regret creating that show. Wholeheartedly. That's how much I hate humans and have absolutely no faith in them. It's disgusting and diabolical how bad we let it get. I hope this serves as a cautionary tale to all indie creators to NEVER make the same mistakes Viv and Goose made.
Yeah, I felt this way when I first heard about this drama! Ever since I've been worried we might have another Chloe from Micralous Ladybug situation with this show.....
Tbf not as much time passed between TAMDC pilot and second episode. It just got widely popular and by the time they made the next episode like any crew would, people had already written their own things. Vivzie is completely different. She had a preestablished fanbase. The characters came from an abandoned comic of hers then began being rewritten. By the time the pilot was out, she had a fanbase and had already shared a lot of details about the characters, which is the main criticism about HH: most information is outside the show and you're required to already be very invested to enjoy it. I genuinely blame her for how indie pilots are now treated. She set up the expectation that the next episode wouldn't come before a long time so fans are used to just taking the base concept and running with it. She also set up the expectation that things are to take at face value (the writing will be on the nose and hold your hand) and that everything will be revealed quickly (you get who the characters are and their place in the narrative in the pilot/their first appearance or maximum in the second episode, the tone of the story is obvious and so is the message/point, the plot is stated and unravels quickly (the only reason HB breaks this one is because the writing is messy and everywhere, Viv straight up doesn't have a plot/narrative line nor does she stick to an episodic format)). She low-key became the model for indie animation but writers like Goose don't fit that mold and somehow people don't notice it and treat her work differently. It's crazy because they CAN treat shows or different media in a different way. It's like the moment it's indie animation, it's put in that box that it can't escape. It doesn't help that indie art in general (the best example being Welcome Home) is treated the same and people feel entitled to someone's creation and characters. They forget that the creator(s) isn't (/aren't) big companies and that they're taking a personal project directly from someone's hands and throwing a fit because they believe they can get them to change it to their will. It's a weird area but I'm glad Goose isn't relenting, unlike Viv. She deserves to share her creation and her vision!
3:55 I do find it a bit funny that people view/viewed Sans as sexy, since he never came across to me like romance was something he cared about (though that is also my own headcanon, of course)
@@p3arl-luk1 People do attach traits to characters even if they don't express them in canon. I do that too, but the extent that people did/do this with Sans was a lot
Honestly lmao. The amount of people I've seen who simp over sans (or his ungodly amount of AUs but that's a whole other can of worms) is insane. I ain't gonna lie that I still liked him as a character just like everyone else. Not as much anymore though, lol
I remember there was an old tweet by Toby Fox years and years ago where he pretty solidly alluded to both skeleton brothers being aro/ace but then the tweet was deleted suspiciously after hostile Soriel shipper reception.
I remember how this happened with the RWBY trailers it was insane to watch as people created a whole fandom cannon from a poster with silhouettes and music and slowly this fan made fandom grew upset as more information was parsed out with a large chunk of people feeling betrayed when the first episode was released cause they made this echo chamber and convinced themselves that this is what the show was going to be.
Sans appearance in Deltarune after years of fanon sans was what saved the character for me. Because it reminded me that Toby was around for Homestuck’s meta comedy and wrote him perfectly for an audience packed with expectations. He’s still the same lazybones with some good jokes, some light hints at deeper lore, and the flirtation with his own meta-awarness of what’s going on is exactly how you keep popular fan character the same when they return
Honestly, I do love being part of fandom. And I really do appreciate it (yes even the NSFW stuff). And ut makes me sad to see how purity culture is taking it over. Its getting harder and harder to just. Have fun. Play around with morally gray or even straight up evil characters. Mess around with characters like they're toys in a sand pit. Examine them closely under a microscope and pick them apart to see how they tick. Fantasise about how you or your special little OC would handle being in this world or that situation is with these characters. Working out how the story would change if this or that was different. They police ships, content and even which characters you like. They forget the principles that fansom has survived on: Ship and let ship, Don't like don't read, YKINMKATOK. And its really frustrating.
i like to do some of the things that you mentioned with spamton from deltarune. he is a very interesting character to me psychologically and also writing wise. its interesting cause i find it hard to even call him evil despite him doing objectively bad things in both route of the game, but at the same time he definetly isnt good either. he is very morally gray but most of that is likely due to his very obvious insanity which is actually pretty sad to me. he is the first sympathetic/tragic villain character who i have actually genuinely felt bad for and even want to see change and get better even if he currently is far from being a great person. i like to watch content about him and even make or write stuff about him myself cause he's just such a genuinely interesting character to me
Personally, I’m very glad I checked out Goose’s Tumblr when the show first blew up. They’ve been very open about the kind of characterization they have intended from the start with characters like Jax and Gangle, basing them off of Poppy the Performer (Poppy and Kendamono, specifically.) It really helped me temper my expectations for Jax being a sadistic, seemingly heartless, ill-intentioned character, and it made watching Episode Two not be a surprise when he showed more of that sour personality off. I’m with you, I LOVE that Goose is sticking to their guns, even if I’ll always love the asshole-who’s-secretly-a-softie/has-a-heart trope. I do think it’s important to remember how YOUNG a lot of people are consuming TADC- that doesn’t excuse bratty, entitled behavior fully, of course, but I know my media literacy has only grown with my age. A lot of these kids will, with any luck and plenty of varied experiences, grow out of these narrow-minded lenses for what characters can and can’t do, or can and should be.
I, for one, LOVE where the crew is taking Jax. It's been so long since we've gotten an asshole character. Not these fake-out, sad-boy, i-can-fix-him types we've had recently. Jax so far is an asshole with his whole chest and I am LIVING for it.
omg, this reminds me of how the fnaf fanon bastardized william afton, they portray him as a loving father who only killed because of some made up sad backstory, while he canonically is basically a monster, a freak, a psycho and most importantly an abusive father who beat, experimented on and tried to kill his children
Gooseworx: "Only the strongest Jax fans will survive this series." Many people missed SERIES, and thought they only meant ep 2. Jax has been confirmed to be WORSE.
It's not just weird, but also incredibly stupid. Like seriously? What were they expecting? And it's not just Jax who's been receiving the hate in the show, also for completely stupid reasons.
In my opinion, the main 3 characters in tadc are based on the 3 most common video game player archetypes, from what I’ve seen as a genshin player who goes online a lot. Ragatha would be the one who does as told, sticks on the path, the lawful good player. Pomni would be the new player, needing help from others and doing the weirdest shit, and getting attached to some of the npcs, and Jax would be the murder hobo imma kill everyone I see player :3
If people can’t accept Jax for who he is, they don’t deserve him. It’s the “I can fix him” mentality at it again. Next up we should talk about how rude male characters are treated better than rude female characters.
I like how Jax isn’t the tumblr sexy man 90% want and was just a mischievous little rabbit, I prefer this over whatever people thought Jax was gonna be
Honestly Jax being a total asshole (and later on becoming a clear antagonist) is only putting his chances of him becomeing the next massive tumblr sexy man higher and higher (as appose of what I heard people say for some reasons), like even if tumblr sexy men where all these uwu ideal and cute man who is just a good person/boyfriend inside or something, which is defitely not the case, many of those who are the depicted this way by the fandom are actually the worst person in the source material; Examples: William Afton, Bill Cipher, Blackhat, literally any villian who becomes a sexy man (the cases of these characters are all not cases either but you get the point is a common one), my point is, what ends up turning some of these characters "atractive" is in fact that in a creative aspect is a really funny challenge trying to come with how a version of this character who is "irredeemable" in their source material could be like if they were "not that bad", and I think beyond the trope "I can fix him" but more towards a creative challenge kinda way where considering as many posibilities and stick with the one that appeals the most to each individual, that or people also just like villains to the point they want to date them because they are villians. Jax could fall in any of these cases if his character keeps going to that direction and as you said it "stays as a fan favorite" instead of all the other way around, which I dont get why I have seen people say that, but who knows, as you keept reappeating in the video the series has only 2 episodes so far and the final direction it might take is complitely unknown at this point
Personally, I don't really care about fandoms, because I know you'd find quite a few oddball characters in it. Especially when said people can potentially hinder my enjoyment out of the media in question Most recently I watched an anime called "The Quintessential Quintuplets" (call me basic, I don't care) out of boredom at first, and actually became quite invested in it, I do know that if I told people I was watching it they'd either tell me it's bad or call my tastes basic or whatever but I enjoy what I enjoy and I ain't letting nobody tell me otherwise (Even though I question some choices in that show's writing) But when it comes to Digital Circus, I also tend not to care about the fandom and instead just let the canon writers... ya know, canonically write. Bottom line, just enjoy what you enjoy, let the writers and show runners cook, and don't let people put ideas about media in your head Also welcome to the Cat Mama Club
What I find intriguing about expectations in fandoms is the observations I've made within the Sonic and TMNT fan communities. In the Sonic fandom, most characters have distinct personalities that fans appreciate, but some have been simplified, like Tails being portrayed as lacking self-confidence,even though he has already gone through his character arc. This and lacking purpose was the problem with Tails in the 2010s (the Meta era as fans call it). Then in Sonic Forces, Tails regressed in his character,fans got pissed and in Frontiers,Sonic reminded Tails what he did and is going through his arc again,a move appreciated by fans including myself. This shows how fan expectations can impact character evolution in a good way. Sonic himself has unique adaptations, but they were all meant to be Sonic at the time, except for the Movie Sonic and '90s cartoons. The '90s cartoons had a loose connection to the original games, but some core characteristics like Sonic's desire for freedom remained consistent. It’s funny because Sega's attempt to establish rules through Prime and IDW comics has sparked further debate among fans, with some choosing to disregard the established rules altogether. Despite complexities, having different interpretations of Sonic is not necessarily negative. As a Sonic fan, I believe there's a way to work out these interpretations. Before delving into TMNT, it's important to clarify how the universes operate. The crossover movie "Turtles Forever" was created some time ago and may no longer be considered canon, but it still holds relevance until an official remake is produced. According to the movie, Mirage Comics serves as the original universe, with all other TMNT universes existing as alternate timelines. For instance, 2012 Michelangelo differs from Mirage Mikey, but both are versions of Mike (does that make sense?): Now, transitioning to my main point: The TMNT characters are based on established archetypes, and different versions either adhere to these archetypes or deviate from them. Rise of the TMNT aims to challenge these archetypes, as seen in the portrayal of Raphael. In Rise of the TMNT, Raph is depicted as a ruff and tumble but caring leader . He now assumes the role of the older brother, with being hyper-aggressive rather than angry-aggressive. It makes you think how much a character can be changed. Another point: The relationship dynamic between characters like Mike and Rapheal in the 2012 TMNT fandom have sparked debates on whether certain behaviours are justified or not. This has caused some fans to see the relationship as abusive, while others see it as great,it gets you to think. Interpretations of traits and whatever else affect the media and the fandom,for example in the Rise movie,Donnie is shown to want to choose when he is touched but some people took this and thought he didn’t like touch at all even though the show disproves this. Last points: Since April and Casey are support characters,the way they are treated in fandom is interesting: 1. As a support for the turtles,there are other characters but I think they aren't known and/or have much of an impact as them. 2.As characters in the story,think of the Idw comics for example (or 2012 cause that's more known). This middle ground of them being a part of the turtles story but also their own can work pretty well and I like it more than them just being support characters. 3. Having their own story/being the main character: I know it's not exactly the same thing but they both take a character who while they can have their own stories and/or arcs,are now the focus,I like this too. My final point is this weird shipping thing with Casey,April and the turtles: Since April is a girl, some people annoyingly expect her to date one of the turtles,even if that April is an adult,though that is more outside of the fandom,inside April is at least a teen or is portrayed in a non-romantic way. Other people ship her with a girl,Eg Karai and some of course ship her with Casey (except Rise Casey Jr would be non romantic because Casey Jr grew up with the future April). Casey is the same when it comes to shipping except since he is a male character,he can be used as an anti-April ship or can have more importance than her (though there's fics where April is important and Casey is ignored). It's weird you can ship 2012 Casey and Donatello but not Rise Casey Jr and Donnie,anyway those are my thoughts on how expectations affect characters in fandoms I'm in.
I remember watching Moon Bunnies' video on Jax, and that practically set up my expectations for the character. Even so, prior to knowing a thing about Jax, I knew he must've been based on abusive boyfriends just from the psychological traits he has in common with them, particularly his outward expression of psychopathy. People who use humor to deflect bad situations, particularly those like the Blue Turtle from Rise of TMNT (I think his name was Leonitalo?) know that you should not cross certain lines with certain people, but Jax has managed to cross through everyone's boundaries. Jax is not humorous. He routinely hurts multiple other members of the circus and deliberately works everyone else to an Abstractisizing level. He does not care for others. He never did, and he probably never will. Genuine Psychopathy is nothing like ADHD, OCD, or Autism, it is something that requires an incredible amount of work to get through and unfortunately, it is unlikely anyone, particularly Caine, could ever give Jax that kind of support.
People forget that fiction is fiction sometimes. I remember this one post on Reddit asking about whether or not the child of a human and half-giant would be mechanically human. You’re writing the story! You get to decide how it works.
Gosh this is reminding me of the Portal fandom’s obsession with turning all the robots human. It got to the point where people saw the humanized characters, decided to play the game, and were confused and disappointed when the characters were robots. I remember one post where a person talked about how they thought that SURELY there must be a plot twist later on where it turns out these robots were actually controlled by humans the whole time, and were disappointed when that didn’t happen. (It also got exhausting being in the fandom when the humanizations were so expected that people wouldn’t even tell you if they were writing human AUs-you would start reading a fic and suddenly Wheatley references having two eyes, or hands, and then you realize “ah, this is an AU.” For a while, I had to specify that my own fics did NOT feature humanizations because people just… expected you to make the characters human. It was wild.)
@@DrawciaGleam02 I didn’t say the humanizations of the robots people draw look bad! I was saying that, for a time, that was ALL that got drawn, to the point where other people saw this and didn’t realize Portal was about robots, and where they expected everyone to just WANT stories about the humanizations rather than the robots so they wouldn’t even label their fics as human AUs.
I felt this in the helluva boss fandom with Stella. Fans were pissed because their fan theories about her weren’t canon. Fans felt she would have a certain emotional depth but were upset when season 2 came out and turns out she’s been horrible since childhood. Her marriage was arranged, she was awful to stolas before he cheated. She enjoyed insulting him as a husband and man. She admits she enjoyed tormenting him when asked why she hangs around the castle when they’re in the process of a divorce. She hired a hit man to kill him. Fans saying this was character assassination I don’t get cuz till season 2 we had little to go on for her character. All we knew was she was angry at Stolas for cheating, hired a hit man to kill him, and has an anger problem. That’s it. There was a long gap between season 1 and 2 enough for fans to have theories and that’s fine, it’s fun. But when your theory is wrong, it doesn’t mean the character was ruined. Sure there are times when a fan theory may be a better idea than what happens in canon, but for characters that are almost a blank slate for character development, theories are there to fill in blanks. Some are close to canon, some are way off. But it’s all in fun. I can’t blame people for being disappointed if their theories are wrong cuz I get that, but to then say ‘oh the story is bad, or the character was ruined’ is a leap. Helluva boss as well as Viv in general have genuine criticism that is valid and if her stories or characters aren’t your liking, that’s fine, but just because a character you felt would go one way instead of another, doesn’t mean the character was ruined. Especially if that character wasn’t fully developed, the creator already had an idea how that character would be.
People who were freaking out over Jax fall into two categories depending on if he'll ever have sweeter layers. 1) impatient baboons. It's only episode 2. We are not gonna get a look at any possible good side he has so early. 2) People who just cannot/refuse to read the room. I'm pretty sure Jax is probably just gonna be an awful jerk to everyone the whole run. It does not matter if he looks sad sometimes, when his consistant action is to be terrible to everyone instead of being a friend.
I personally stick to the simple headcanon that the Pale King from Hollow Knight was absolutely devastated when he learned that the void beings actually DID have a mind, and that he committed his atrocity (for minimal spoilers) for absolutely nothing. If he could wind back time, he’d likely take the second chance in a heartbeat and start loving his kids like a proper father
part of the problem, i feel, is the increasing tendency of building people to not want their preconceptions challenged. if this is how they react to fictional works because they're hellbent on everything being perfectly predictable and comfortable, god knows how they react to real-life situations...
I find it funny how a character called jax, which sounds a lot like jackass and has plenty of reason to think of him as a jackass in the pilot is in fact the jackass of the group... hmm, interesting
Do you know what this reminds me of? Stella from Helluva Boss! A LOT of people hate how she is written because it goes against what THEY wanted her to be, an innocent victim who LOVED Stolas instead of the vulgar, spoiled, cruel woman who was FORCEDLY married to him by their families! Seriously, nothing in the show indicated that she even loved Stolas, she's clearly more pissed off that he humiliated her in front of her friends and that he had an affair with an Imp (a low-class demon), not that she was " betrayed" by Stolas, because for there to be betrayal there would have to be some kind of connection between the two people, but that was never the case and to this day there are people whining about it just because she is not an innocent person that many wanted. yeah, cheating is bad, but remember, SHE IS ABUSIVE!! ABUSE AGAINST MEN EXISTS AND SHOULD NOT BE TREATED AS IF IT WAS NOT A SERIOUS THING!! Honestly, I have zero sympathy for abusers and I always had the impression that she was always aggressive towards him before the betrayal because she simply attacks him and everyone acts as if this was a common occurrence. Plus the fact that she always ignores Octivia! Seriously, people have to stop acting like their headcanon about her is correct!!
I don't care if she is Pure Evil or if she is Sympathetic. I just wished she was written better. Whenever you made her a Bad Person with Understandable Anger or a Pure Evil Mother Gothel-type Villain, as long as she was written good. Unfortunately she is written to be as unpleasant as possible and it sucks…
@@liannabunny7775 yeah, I'll have to agree with that, that's my problem with her, she goes from hateful to annoying very quickly. I want to hate her, not roll my eyes at her antiques.
I thought she was hated? Clearly her character is nothing more than an abusive bitch that has the audience feel sympathy for Stolas despite the fact he did cheat. I’m not saying he shouldn’t have not cheated since Stella is a horrible person, but he did technically cheat still? Anyway, I doubt we’ll get anything sympathetic with Stella because she’s pretty… flat? Maybe we’ll see more as to why she’s like this, or maybe not. Also if anything, I see Mammoth and Crimson getting more fans than her.
@@liannabunny7775I think that's the point though. She's _supposed_ to be a Hate Sink, you're _supposed_ to hate her. You're not supposed to like her at all.
I love that people hate Jax in this case because he killed a bunch of NPCs who, in the same episode, have been established to not matter and their existence past what the crew sees isnt even proven to exist. Gummigoo has no mom, the majority of the candy people are just mannequins, and theres a literal dev room with all the available models in the level assets, im fairly certain that when they leave the world either resets or goes into stasis. The entire point of the episode is that Pomni is the only one who doesnt know trying to help these things is fruitless and dumb, Jax is just the other end of the spectrum having fun messing with and brutalizing things that have no real soul. Its like a kid figuring out the goofiest way to kill/torture a minecraft villager or a GTA cop lol
As a Star Wars fan, it gets so annoying when people have such high expectations and then get angry when what they theorize didn’t happen. Or in Ninjago’s case, when Lloyd became the Green Ninja instead of Kai. Look, I love trying to imagine and theorize what might happen, and even if what I want to happen doesn’t happen, it doesn’t change my excitement about what I’m watching. At the end of the day, it’s all fun and fiction. And sometimes the unexpected is better because it shows that the writers aren’t as predictable.
The nice thing about headcanons is that even if theyre not actually canon, they still get to exist. Though it is still always fun when theories become canon
Unfortunately, the fan theories becoming canon has happened way too much for way too long. It needs to stop. We need to stop overfeeding our fans with fanservice and good content. Those gluttonous pigs are never satisfied with what we give them! They're so ungrateful! They don't deserve us! None of them deserve to have nice things and be happy!
I wasn't ever expecting Jax to be a kind, good soul. He's a terrible guy, but in the pilot he was clever. In episode two he's just kinda violent. Since we are only on episode two, I'll just chalk it up to writing. I just hope we get to see Jax being more clever in the future.
I laughed when you said “seriously, a skeleton” because I was and still am a bill cipher stan 😭😭 As for Jax, some of us WANT a genuine jerk. I don’t want an empathetic storyline or hidden agenda. I LOVE me a bitch who causes chaos. I’m glad the creator isn’t changing their plan, and I honestly hope Jax continues being the way he is 🫢
Letting fandom and fanon influence my perception of a show before I've gotten a chance to see it is something I feared would happen with Hazbin Hotel. So instead of fully diving into everything the fandom had to offer during the years of waiting I did my best to keep my interactions with the fandom to what I considered enough for me. I stayed away from HuskerDust. At first I didn't care for it but after a while I saw the potential and appeal for the ship but I never let myself get invested because I realized if I did I would've let the fanon throw my expectations out of whack and set me up for failure once the show premiered. I think it's great fans can keep their enthusiasm while they wait for indie projects to come out but I think it's also the people who never give themselves a break from the fandom that set these expectations too high or end up skewing their perception of what the actual show and characters are because they've been creating fanon in their minds for so long.
What's funny about this to me is that I didn't like Jax from the get go. Seemed to be designed on purpose to be disliked actually, like, a character you're supposed to hate but later maybe find out they are much more complex and possibly even redeamable in some way. But like... come on, he was written as a total asshole. I never understood people who had this weird attraction to him as a character from episode one.
I will say this, if people can like Big Jack Horner from Puss in Boots 2 for being an unapologetic jerk they can like Jax for being an unapologetic jerk
Considering some fandoms will literally send out vile abusive bunches of crap towards creators if a character they have head-canoned as being one sexuality turns out not to be that sexuality, or if their ship is not canon, or if the jackass character turns out to not be a sad-boy whom "just needs love", and on and on; I tend not to care what the fandom response towards a series I enjoy is anymore. I can only hope for the best for the creators and hope they can continue making their series their way, not what a bunch of terminally online professional crybullies want.
I have learned that the only "fandom" you need is a small circle of your mutuals in whatever social media you meet up in, a tissue, a penny, and a potato chip. I'm in the TADC fandom and I never heard of anyone in my circle complaining about Jax or sending harassment.
My observations of Fandom Culture at large leads me to feel like this particular type of case is about less what did happen and was undone but more like what "seemed" to be happening but didn’t. Fandom loves the hypothetical. The theories, the speculation. A lot of it is very personalized even when fans come together to pitch their own takes. As such, there’s a personal investment factor in these malleable concepts that’s distinct from engaging in the hardwared canon. It’s a sandbox where the material you’re working with can be molded into what suits you. Canon can be too often, “Here it is: take it or leave it.” Fanon is more accomadating to those who might want to change things. Bare in mind, I’m not trying to advocate for one or the other here. Fanon depends on canon, warts and all, and a Fandom can’t flourish without it period. But sometimes we mistake Fanon for what should happen and ignore the innate placeholder status they have. Thus Canon is seen as an intrusion when, well, it’s just the show itself.
This reminds a lot of the smosh fanfics, people are think cursed and they gotta show it to the world. For this alone, i hope people take this into consideration before having a career revolving the internet because you basically giving up control on a public scale. You can either fight or ride it, I just don't want to hear people on the net complain about.
This is the danger of parasocial relationships. There needs to be a serious scientific study in the mentality of fandoms. Now phantoms can be great, but sometimes this kind of crap is just terrifying.
This occurs with physical media as well bands for example the Beatles and Elvis Presley also had very weird fan base. Pants thrown on stage, sometimes psycho fans with their weird love when there was none and all of that. There were also cases of mischaracterisation in the fandom. It's way older phenomenon than people realize.
Woooooooo, gotta love flanderization. People need to realize that their preconceived notions of a character or story are just that. Preconceived. Watch the show, and pay attention to how the characters actually act instead of jumping the gun and deciding before stuff has even been released. I don’t think this is an issue of literacy. Some people are just, that stupid apparently.
Maybe it's how they perceive character. Undertale has been released for pretty long but only now people started to pay attention to how Sans is characterized after a lot of mischaracterisation of characters throughout the 8 years. Thanks to people who started politely point out how people don't create Sans but they create a different character with name of Sans slapped on that character. It's fine with AU's that are different from canon or aren't placed in canon story. However it becomes a problem when story is placed in canon or uses canon characters as a drive for the story and mischaracterisation still occurs.
i never heard of that dream daddy controversy. All i knew was what the gaming youtubes were playing (mainly the craig route before moving on) and thats it
As always, a pleasure to listen to. I don't engage with Fandom much myself, but listening to someone with knowledge and enthusiasm for the subject is generally a hoot, and very informative window into the indie and lgbtq+ sphere.
This is likely going straight to the bottom of the comment section, but IDK. While I will agree with your last point, in that "Creatives don't listen to their fans as much as we may think," I still can't help but consider the possibility that power dynamic may be slowly shifting. One good example of this would have to be the "Sonic Movie situation." For those unaware, Sonic was originally going to look drastically different then what we currently recieved, right up until massive fan backlash resulted in the film being delayed so they can make a more appealing design. Had Paramount and the creatives behind the film not listen to the criticism regarding the design, it's likely the film would have retained the old design; and possibly not be as big a sensation as it was. Another example of fans having some influence over the product is regarding "SVTFOE" and how Daron Nefcy began to prioritize shipping over her actual story. I feel this goes without saying, but "Star Vs" has one of the least-conclusive conclusions to a story ever written; with many of them being attributed to Nefcy's shortcomings as a writer. It's hard to say how much of the fanbase fed into these shortcomings, but if you pay attention to the rate of shipping-related episodes and plot-centric episodes appear, you can see a shift corresponding to the former appears more frequently than the ladder; likely when these shipping wars were reaching their peak. I don't want this comment to be too long, so I'll leave off with this: if these past few years have proved anything, with massive film studios like Disney or Warner Bros loosing millions, it's that fans are realizing that they have more power over the industry than they realize. With fans providing a project's main source of income, creatives will need to ride that line between their own creative vision and fan-expectations.
"creatives will need to ride that line between their own creative vision and fan-expectations." THIS. I'm really worried for Gooseworx if it turns out her original vision for Digital Circus turns out to not be great in the eyes of the fandom. I remember when Sailor Moon Crystal came out and Sailor Moon fans HATED IT. Which was AWFUL because Crystal was closer to the original manga story (and the creator's vision) than the 90's anime....... Imagine being a creator and finding out your original vision for a story harms its perception with its audience.
the whole thing on not letting fandom perception dictate what you think of media is so real; i swore to myself that i wouldn't get into Undertale because of the things i'd heard about the fandom, but then the bone-boy himself dragged me by my hair, unfortunately, but i actually found a pretty nice side of the fandom to hunker down in, not to mention the fandom has calmed down a LOT since it's baby years. sometimes you just have to swim a little deeper into the trench to find that secret cove, ya know?
This is why I love being a Touhou fan. There are a heap of cases where a character has been interpreted a certain way for *years*, and then the creator has turned around and gone “yeah no, it’s basically the opposite”. For example, one of the most popular pairings of characters are Aya and Momiji, but then we get a game which explicitly states they hate each other. The bulk of our community respond either with “cool, we’ll rework how they’re shown going forward” or “cool, we’ll continue as we have been” and *both sides generally respect these decisions*. Some even take an approach of using the new information to create a bridge between canon and existing fanon; in the aforementioned Aya/Momiji case, a few depictions explored them getting over initially disliking each other. Sure, there are always bad apples (and Touhou fans will appreciate that wording), but there’s a broad culture of accepting that different people view different characters in different ways. I personally lean more towards canon, but some of my favourite Touhou fan creations embrace very different lenses to view their characters.
Bro I LITTRALLY NEVER EVEN NOTICED A CHANGE IN JAX IT WAS WHAT I EXPECTED AND I STILL LOVE HIM HE'S A LOVABLE ASSHOLE WHO ISN'T BEJNG VERY REDEEMABLE RIGHT NOW AND I STILL THINK THIS IS A VERY COOL CHARACTER LIKE GUYS LOOK CAN PEOPLE NOT SEE THIS WORK OF ART HE'S HORRIBLE IN A BEAUTIFUL WAY
I believe that sometimes it’s due to the fanbase being so vocal about a way they want to see a character in a certain way that people actually start to believe it to be cannon
Fandoms, to me, will always be the worst part of any media. Although good-intentioned, I personally feel a lot of people in fandom spaces tend to admire to a fault. Make no mistake, It is perfectly fine to like something, even passionately ( I myself can be guilty for having strong opinions on video games like Mario Kart, for instance ), but I do think that it can be very easy to latch onto something too quickly and without making an educated judgement, only to be disappointed that they didn't meet our rushed expectations... It's why I often tend to wait a good while before I decide whether the community is right for me, especially with media that's considered the flavour of the month. I still like the media shown to me ( I like a lot of the TADC characters, namely Pomni, and Jax because I knew he was intentionally designed to be an asshole ), but I think people need to separate the fandom from the media and realise you don't need to be part of the community in order to like it, nor should we be forced to share the same mindset/opinions; Same as we do with separating the art from the artist...
"Jax isn't a sad boy with a rough shell, he literally hates you" that's basically what his character is about
That's what makes him vulnerable, to getting Curb stomped to a bloody pulp.
@@jmhguyi will make hat from you little Bunny
@@hatlessspy*You have found a new item: Jax’s severed head*
can he beat Goku tho?
@@outrider5896he might be able to actually beat goku since tadc characters are unable to be damaged letting Jax chip away at goku's stamina forever until goku loses.
I already knew Jax is a jerk from the pilot and i don't understand why people simp for him, but you know who else is a big Tumblr sexy man before Jax? It was William Afton the child murderer from five nights at Freddy's. Yeah for some reason the fandom simps for evil purple men in rabbit suits.
The WHOMST-
@@Fionapollo The Gacha fandom/community simps for William Afton.
I think people like romanticizing asshole characters because of the whole “there’s more to him” trope that’s been around forever (with a lot of roots in the whole idea of a woman “fixing” a man, when in reality just ditch the fucker), and it’s also a way to rationalize being attracted to that sort of shithead charisma (like that’s why I like Jax; he’s a massive shitter, and I think he’s funny. I don’t simp, I hate his guts, but he’s interesting and funny to watch, and I think he’s great). Plus, a lot of the fans who are younger aren’t quite as good at differentiating between “liking an asshole character because surely he isn’t an asshole” and “I like this character because he’s an asshole”.
@@monroerobbins7551 which is why I hate the Gacha FNAF community so much.
I hate that they make William Afton this misunderstood UwU sad boi who killed children because "Tragic Past" when in reality he's an irredeemable murderous As$hole!
They make an interesting villain/antagonist into a pathetic sad boi.
@@monroerobbins7551 Which is why i avoid the Gacha FNAF community they made William Afton an interesting villain into a sad pathetic bad-boi Tumblr sexy man.
Now he's less threatening/interesting but cringe and boring.
And since the second episode of TADC came out i begin to like Jax because now the fandom realized that he's an As$hole 😂
Michael doesn't deserve to be harassed just because people are angry at this character. I hope toxic fans just leave him alone.
I don’t know why people think an actor/ VA is the character. Mark Hamil isn’t a psychopath just because he voices the Joker.
I’m sorry people are doing what-
He's not the first person to fall victim to this. Anyone remember Jeoffry from GoT? The bratty teen king who got poisoned? Yeah. He quit acting as a result of his terrific acting for such a terrible character, something that we few *neanderthals* cannot seem to fathom nowadays. I'm just thankful that Valentino's VA isn't subjected to that same hate for playing a canoncially confirmed r*pist in Hazbin Hotel.
@@king_poyo64it's because association is beyond stupid when headcanon is involved
@@nevaehhamilton3493 my guess is that hazbin hotel is watched less by kids? Probably because the show requires Amazon Prime, rather than being fully available on YT. And on prime it's easier/more likely that parents see the history, while it's very very easy for kids to watch things they shouldn't on YT and then comment things they shouldn't on a secret social media acc.
At least I'm really hoping it's dumb kids pulling this harmful nonsense, unaware or real consequences...
I just find it really funny how people thought Jax was gonna be a sarcastic jerk and that he had a heart and actually cared for some of the other circus members while in actuality he's just a deplorable little shit that allowed a monster to destroy an entire kingdom because he was feeling silly and when he didn't get to kill anyone himself he was so incredibly disappointed.
I hope Gooseworx makes him commit an actual war crime on screen and it's not played for laughs or jokes and it makes everyone go "what the hell is wrong with you" when they see him do it !!
As someone who spends a lot of time in fandom spaces, I get it, I sometimes latch to my headcanons and forget they aren't canon, but it's mostly just for their appearances and actions, like J from Murder Drones, I headcanon her as being Chubby since I saw fanart where she was so my brain just defaulted to that so whenever I see Canon and see she isn't Chubby I go "Why aren't you fat... Oh yeah I forgot"
Seems he’s sorta both, as he seemed sad about Kaufmo
But yeah I agree I’m actually excited to see him get worse for some reason?
@@zillycat8534 I heard the "Jax is an NPC" theory and I kinda like it as an explanation for his behavior, explains why he's so apathetic, but still during Kaufmo's funeral it seemed he was remembering something (he was looking to the left for a little bit), maybe the death of someone he was close to, so maybe this behavior is his own way of grieving.
Jax commiting war crimes should become an entire episode, that'd be funny (Atleast to me)
@@BootlegTerminator The New Episode: The Circus Crew got to Vietnam
I like to think since the setting is supposed to be like a video game, Jax is supposed to be those players who just cause chaos and try to break the game and choose all the mean options
I compare a lot of discourse of someone going to a place that makes burgers and gets mad they don’t sell tacos
Yea that about sums it up
They thought they would get Sans, a lovable, jokey nihilist with an existential crisis, who's secretly protective. Instead they got Flowey, a sociopathic jerk who's willing and excited to hurt others and cause chaos because he's perpetually bored and knows he can get away with it because nothing he does 'really' matters.
As someone who’s been a Jax hater from the start, this has been an interesting experience for me. I hated him because of how he treated Gangle, plain and simple. When the second episode was released I actually appreciated his character for being an unlikable asshole instead of a “he’s just misunderstood” (which I would have screamed into a pillow if that was the reason) Something I was shocked about was the people that turned on Jax, were his simps. For a good minute I thought “Oh good, people aren’t simping for him anymore and seeing his red flags” only to be slapped in the face with how this is apparently character assassination?!
fandoms' abilities to turn any character (mainly male ones though) into a soft "oh no wait he's just depressed and misunderstood!! :(" sad boi, is unmatched lol, nothing wrong with it persay but it does get annoying
Mostly because it encourages forgetting what a character was originally about-
Same😭 Im surprised people are shocked by his character when I felt like his personality was obvious from the start
I love gangle too
i don't even watch TADC and im still sighing watching this shit go down. sometimes a character is just an asshole and that's okay, and you can't yell character assassination after a single episode. it will never cease to both amaze me and make me cringe how fandoms fall in love with what's basically a glorified oc using canon as a faceclaim but god i want it to end so badly. and i say all this as someone who enjoys my characters turning nasty after trauma and having to learn to trust and appreciate the people that refuse to give up on them.
It feels like Digital Circus is a commentary on gaming in general in which case Jax seems to be to be a commentary and reflection of the general gamer who just wants the violence and does not care about the effect it has on others.
*yeah*, jax has the energy of a gamer who starts a game specifically to cause as much destruction/in-game suffering as possible. he’s like the patron saint of minecraft griefers and people who come up with increasingly-inventive ways to kill their sims
Yeah that’s basically how I interpret Jax, just an insatiably violent agent of chaos who just shows up with the explicit intent of causing as much destruction and suffering as physically possible.
So Jax in a way is kinda like Flowey in the case of kill or be killed. Damn. Jax would definitely enjoy the undertale genocide route.
I like how, through Jax, you can see the inspiration Gooseworx got from Toby Fox.
As someone who only just recently watched TADC for the first time, I find it extremely funny that episode 2 was the point where a lot of people started disliking Jax, because to me, that was the point were he became my favorite character (for now anyways). I guess I kinda saw episode 2 as a DnD campaign and from that perspective, Jax is basically that one chaotic evil murder hobo who just wants to wreck everything in sight, DM's plans be damned. Yeah, he'd probably be absolutely insufferable to actually be around or play with, but I'll be damned if I don't think it's funny.
Episode 2 being describe as a DnD campaign is the most accurate description I heard for it. But fr tho, Jax just felt like that one player who make their character do the most chaotic and unapologetic evil shit ever but the other can’t really do much about their behavior other then witness the chaos.
Had a similar experience, I only started watching after ep2 came out and found the discourse around Jax pretty funny; I definitely agree with the DnD angle. The pilot (whether people realize it or not) technically has higher stakes than ep2, since abstracted kaufmo is more of a threat than Caine's daily adventures. I like to think of Jax almost like the egyptian god Set/Seth: causes most of the problems but will be helpful if "the world" is at stake because it's no fun if the world is gone
bruh im bi and saying that just because a character that happens to be bi is also a cult leader is "demonizing bisexuality" is so stupid im sorry
People often forget that LGBT+ people and just that - people. There are angels among them, and there are despicable human beings among them.
“this villain is a woman! That’s demonizing women! Sexism!”
@@valentinkambushev4968 or when people think that an LGBT+ person/character's only defining trait is their sexuality-
hell for some the fact he's evil may just make him hotter XP
Idk what the context is to the character, but if they’re the only queer character and/or them being bi is presented as a way they’re bad, I can see why that would be demonising.
Fandoms are about meeting people with a common interest. You just shouldn't expect to be friends with everyone and it also doesn't mean the safety rules of the real world don't apply!
Fandoms as a whole are stupid in my opinion. The only reason why I do it is just to fit in, knowing damn well I never will. It's even harder as an autistic person, and many autistics are essentially outcasts outside of any "fAnDoM".
Sometimes I wonder if people get upset about an asshole just being an asshole because A) you’d have to explain to yourself why you liked a character that was an asshole, which may require introspection that they aren’t willing to spare, B) they see an asshole and think “there’s gotta be a reason, some depth that makes him somewhat understandable”, cause in their heads, they rationalize that people don’t just start out as an asshole, and/or C) they’re just really into the “asshole that secretly has goodness in their hearts” trope, so they’re disappointed that an asshole is just an asshole.
I think more than anything, looking at the roots of inspiration, “I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream”, it may help clarify why certain things are the way they are. Circumstances are unfair, characters are assholes just cause they’re assholes, NO ONE is really happy in this world, and that’s purposeful. There’s not really meant to be a silver lining in every character.
Plus… genuine thing: what’s more realistic, an asshole that’s secretly nice when you pry hard enough and you’re somehow lucky enough to see it, and somehow you’re able to build a better bond after that, or a guy is just a dick and a bit of a sadist, and you don’t really get to find that “better part”, because it just ain’t there, or it isn’t what you expected.
Also, isn’t a character that’s just an asshole just as interesting? Like, you can wonder “why the fuck are they like this” without having to rationalize bad behavior, and you can enjoy an asshole character without trying to pardon them. Sometime’s an asshole is just an asshole, and you don’t have to condone a character’s bad behavior to enjoy it.
The thing that makes me chuckle the most about Digital Circus being partially inspired by IHNM is that Jax is more of a hateful jerkwad than the character who's in the same general role of "AI/computer that runs the world" that AM fills. Digital Circus (so far) does not have a Hate Computer. It has the angriest bunny boy to ever exist instead, and I think that's incredibly fun.
i definitely think the latter two reasons are probably the biggest ones
the first one is just kinda sad, people shouldnt be ashamed to like bad characters lol
Remember a character from a game I played, he is a jerk, but at the time he didn't had a meaningful appearance story wise and when it happened? People were like "where is my soft nerd boy?" or "he isn't like that, they changed him!" [guess why this reactions] and he was already shown being a jerk but people bended it backwards and claimed that he was a tsundere and would act like that specially for his "himbo boyfriend" [why everything needs to be about ships?].
No need to tell that canon showed the opposite of what they believed and they got angry amd tried to cancel the character for being a jerk.
Well, for me it's like this: I enjoy characters that are secretly good and just act out because then I can look forward to an arc of learning to be better, growing as a person and dealing with their issues.
If a character is just a jerk, though, they immediately feel more static. And while it's perfectly fine for an antagonist (case in point - Jack Horner from "Puss in Boots: Last Wish"), a protagonist or close to that character just becomes NOT interesting to me. I just want them gone as a result, so that we could focus on "better" characters instead, instead of this random irrelevant jerk who is just being a nuisance.
Besides, I kinda treat all media I consume in an escapist way and a jerk who doesn't have redeeming qualities and isn't in the role of an antagonist from the get go is just too realistic and breaks my immersion. I come to fiction to escape these jerks, I don't want to be forced to fantasize a fictional character's torturous demise that I'd like to inflict upon them!
@@annanas9122 and that’s completely fair and your prerogative! Taste is a personal thing; the big difference is knowing the difference between “I don’t like this character, kinda wanna focus on the ones I like”, and “I don’t like this character because it doesn’t match my headcanon, AUTHORS FIX”, if that makes sense. I find complexity in the jerk characters to give them more texture; that can be negative texture, like the levels of depravity they’ve gone through or the complexity of their schemes, or positive texture, like their past making them feel they need to be a prick, or originally being just an average dude before going downhill. But then again, that’s just me, and I also like the asshole character who does have some good aspects to them.
That’s the fun thing about discourse; we’re allowed to like different things and even disagree. The big difference is respecting the other person’s autonomy, and being open to discussion.
fandoms can be a double edge sword. For any community. They can be the most sweetest and supportive group. Or most vile and miserable group. I get some people can be very supportive towards something but it can develop into something possessive. Thats what I think is happening for these characters. I agree these people had high standards of these characters and when their are different from their headcannons, blood is gonna be spill. Some people can’t accept something be just silly headcannon. Ugh don’t get be started on the shipping. People can go too far. As a shipper myself, it’s embarrassing.
Unfortunately, we managed to get stuck with the bad portions of the TADC fandom. And it's never going to improve. At this point, I just wish Gooseworx cancelled the show when she got the chance to, because I have a good feeling that Gooseworx regrets creating TADC. How about we all agree that fandoms suck and they shouldn't exist!?
@@nevaehhamilton3493 fandoms do deserve to exist; you dont have to like them. but technically fandoms have existed since people have shared stories and discussed them with others. its a double edges sword, and sometimes uncontainable/uncontrollable, but in the end its human nature for peopleto come together over certain likes and beliefs.
there is no stopping that, like, at all. so one should do the best they can to make such spaces as safe and enjoyable as they can.
TLDR: Fandoms are weird, but a part of human nature and there is no getting rid of them, so lets do the best we can.
It will never stop being funny to me that people were so down bad over a pair of floating glasses that they were downright betrayed and hurt when Hotel Transylvania revealed he wasn't this drop dead prettyboy they tricked themselves into believing he was.
"If you like Undertale, play Deltarune!"
-Duke Nukem
And if you like Deltarune, then check yourself into a mental hospital, because the entire Undertale fandom is garbage and no one should be allowed to participate in it. The game isn't even that fun to play, anyway.
@@nevaehhamilton3493 I respectfully disagree. Deltarune is fun to many people and liking it doesnt mean youre insane. Just cos a good percentage of the community of both fandoms is bad, you cannot say that a person who enjoys the game is bad.
@@nevaehhamilton3493 Is it past your bedtime already?
@@nevaehhamilton3493a person pretending to be a Undertale hater wouldn't be as cartoony as you dude
As someone who is only active on TH-cam and doesn't look into AUs or OC(inserts) from Undertale and Deltarune, all I see from the fandom is cool as all heck music remixes, music videos and sometimes entirely new pieces. It's so cool.
I'm aware there's a bad side to every fandom but don't forget a lot of them are awesome.
I found the hatred for episode 2 Jax to be stupid. When I saw him in the pilot I could tell he was meant to be a jerkass Bugs Bunny. So, when I saw him in episode 2, I laughed at how much of an asshole he was!
tbh i actively want jax to get worse as a person. i just like the narrative of The Worst Guy Of All Time being subjected to computer-generated horrors beyond his comprehension
I really enjoy engaging in fandom, fan created works is how I've been introduced to some of my favorite pieces of media. I believe that engaging in fandom is about keeping a careful balance in who you interact with.
Yeah, and finding the “people who enjoy the content and want more/to explore different aspects”, as opposed to “people who want to completely change the content and get mad when people don’t agree”.
Exactly!! The best way to interact with fandoms is to curate your internet experience. You don't have to interact with everything and everyone that's presented to you. Find yourself some reliable people to fall back to when things get too hectic.
@@BloomBlanche or we can just touch grass and stay the hell away from the show, because we should not be trusted with anything related to those shows? We need to punish fans more for those kinds of things!
Amen to that!
@@nevaehhamilton3493 The road to hell is paved with good intentions my friend. I've seen far too many people over correct and police others to the point of genuinely harassing and sending death threats or suicide baiting. Just disengage and block those you don't like/don't want to interact with.
I feel like people are too impatient with these sort of things
11:45 What you say in this part also reminds me of the TOH community when Hunter was introduced, and a lot of people started shipping him with Edric, Amity's brother, for the mere fact that 1: they thought it was cute and 2: they both ware the same age, but then they were pissed off with the revelation that Hunter and Willow would be endgame, hating the ship for whatever reason like the age difference(two years, which isn't a big deal), the fact that it was "forced" (at the time they had only two to three episodes together) or that the it was "homophobic" because many headcanons have him as gay without even a confirmation from Dana (same thing with Willow, I literally saw people saying she was a lesbian but there was never any confirmation of that!)! and now it is confirmed that Hunter is bi and Willow is pan. Seriously, I thought Hunter x Edric was cute, but at the same time they NEVER interacted, so it wasn't a very likely ship.
I ship Hunter with Edric. Not all of us who ship them are toxic like that, just so you know. :P.
Yeah, that was such a bizarre thing to watch happen, especially such vast hatred to a rather harmless ship.
Sometimes people gotta remember sexuality headcanons are ok, but they aren't canon and if they're proven wrong that's not a reason to chew out a creator like that.
@@hannahmetzger4880 I know that, it's just that it was a huge reaction when it happenedTwT
I forgot that ship existed.
I honestly never cared for the ship of Hunter and Edric. I don’t hate it. But it just was there. Ya know? Huntlow on the other hand I grew to absolutely love!
Wonderful video as always Apollo. I didn't know people were upset about Jax, especially when it's pretty consistent with episode one. Him leaving Pomni and Ragatha behind, constantly trying to annoy or get under someone's skin. In general, I feel like yeah, it's only episode 2, the character hasn't deviated or shown us anything different from the previous episode, and the main MC even seems to dislike him. All in all that's just how the character is. Sometimes you're meant to dislike someone in shows, I feel like there's a bit of viewer entitlement going on of wanting everything the same, which doesn't make for entertaining media.
And plus, sometimes an asshole character can be enjoyable to watch, and you don’t have to like them. Like, “oh wonder what that shithead’s gonna do”, that sort of thing.
Jax: acts like a jackass since the first episode
Fans: how could they character assassinate my favorite purple rebbat!
the Jax controversy feels exactly like the Stella controversy. I'll give you the skinny. in Helluva Boss, there's a character named Stella. she's the arranged wife of Stolas. after his affair with Blitz, she's been beyond pissed at him. in season 1, we only ever saw her angry at Stolas for what he did, but she never said she was mad because he slept with someone other than her. I'll get back to that in a minute. when season 1 drew to a close, fans started developing a headcanon for Stella, depicting her as the victim in the situation. however, Season 2 confirmed that her and Stolas's marriage never had any love at all, and him cheating on her felt like an act of triumph. yet now the fans were pissy because Stella isn't the way she was in their headcanons. and now something very similar is happening with Jax.
The difference is that HB and HH tend to villainnize women and that almost every guy gets depth but them. Even worse is that Stolas is genuinely a terrible person too but the show never, ever, bothers to portray it for what it is and even acknowledge it. How she has male characters similar to Stella but are treated better (or made silly instead of getting the harsh but deserved treatment). Oh and also that objectively, in canon and stated by the show, Stella did get a lot of shit and got dealt a shit hand in life. Parts were retconned, she wasn't originally a terrible mother to Octavia, she used to be very upset that Stolas cheated on her. I have no doubt that her being sent off to a richer and more powerful family to get married, against her will just like Stolas, will be written in a way to take away that sympathetic factor. That's what Vivzie always does. She sees that fans notice bits of lore she puts in and focus on something she doesn't like so she adds something to destroy it, often clumsy and therefore angering people instead of getting them to go "oh so that's how it is instead, interesting".
A silly example is how she despises Chalastor in HH and shoved a moment in the full series to establish them as "father-daughter", even though it makes no sense and didn't get anything to portray it, to get them to shut up. The result? Lots of fans instead thought that Alastor was bullshitting to piss off Lucifer, sometimes with the interpretation that he hated people more powerful than him. Now, I don't care for the ship but her course of action wasn't just stupid, it was done badly.
Anyways back to Stella. It's a culmination of things and yearning for a better written character and a minimum of nuance. Had Vivzie written her better, I doubt as many people would have a problem with her showing Stella as worse and worse every time she's on screen. God, she could even take a page from their version of the character, as she has often done, and used it to build Stella as a kid who was despised by her family, thus throwing tantrums and being a demon child, and so was married off to get more power. Then, since she already was unstable, she only got worse as a person. With this, she's a victim of circumstances but she still sucks. You get an escalation for her character (I mean Stolas openly thirsting for an imp brings their family shame and hurts their reputation, it doesn't even take that much to get a bad abusive person to lash out) and you acknowledge the established circumstances around her. It even works to make Stolas more sympathetic: he was a pawn too and was deliberately stuck with someone who would inevitably hurt him and had to deal with Stella's increasing resentment and anger. To add to their dynamic her blaming him for what happened, for not caring about his position (iirc it's coveted enough that him being seen as weak could be dangerous), for a magnitude of reasons. Maybe he tried being nice and she couldn't stand it. Maybe he was neutral and that made her furious.
But there is establishing circumstances to excuse a character and there is establishing circumstances to explain a character.
You can't blame people for wanting the latter. It's often proof of how much they care for the show and want more. HB is also very soap opera-y so ofc they want more drama 😂 Nothing better than exploring rich people shit/the messes royalty makes for drama!
(/nm and /gen btw, personally I just like Ozzie and Fizz, they're cute and always well written. I have my own gripes with the show and the fans (do they really not see how every single time, Blitz is happier with everyone BUT Stolas? Even if they're endgame, they are nowhere near the point of being together healthily. I wish it was a more widespread sentiment so that Viv would take her time and get them to completely start over because damn they would need it!) and I don't care for Stella. I see what she could be but she's so irrelevant and just a narrative device that I don't care for her as a character lol
Meanwhile folks that dealt with abuse spotted the red flags immediately with Stella.
honestly to me at least people were more at least annoyed with the lost potential of what she could be. she didnt have to be redeemable nor have a tragic backstory shes just needed to be a character that was more than “angry and abuses stolas”. i think my main issue with it is becuase her only purpose is to make the audience feel bad for stolas and see him as a “precious prince” who did no wrong. shew only serves to push sttolas and blitze together as an excuse to why him cheating was okay.
id say its more of porr writing issue
@@Actualbowlofsoup But isn't that exactly the Jax problem? People expected the character to be something they were never intended to be. Sometimes "angry and abusive" is legit all you want in your villain, and looking back it's pretty clear that Stella wasn't intended to be anything other than an antagonist. *If* it also makes Stolas affair more believable, then good. That's how you do writing to make characters' actions make sense. Do I personally think that Stolas should have divorced her 15 years ago? Yes, but if characters always made the right decision it would be bad writing.
@@helenanilsson5666 id say its different with jax, in the pilot hes always been an asshole the only difference here and episode two is that he was here for longer. stella never got that, she was an asshole no doubt but you never really knew why, and by season 2 where the “big reveal” as to why shes like this its just “i like tormenting you lol”. im not upset shes evil, more over that they presented it poorly. adam is better example of a villain like this, we see him countless of times be an asshole, that annoyance builds up with the audience and when hes killed you feel satifaction(although i do wish it was charlie out main portagonist to do that feels weird to have the gimmik character do it but alright). Stella however rarely got that. we have 2 scenes before we see Stolas stand up to her, one where she is angry that Stolas cheated with a lower class demon(given the pilot as well as season two confirming it, she was embarrassed in front of her friends too) and the second of her referring to him as a “cheating prick” implying she DOES feel anger for the cheating.
these don't accurately give us anything about her character nor make the scene with her and Stolas feel satisfactory. the show couldve gave us more scenes with her being rude and an asshole because from what we knew she was genuinely upset at what Stolas did, but when season two arrived we see that all thrown out the window. She loudly proclaims how awful Stolas is so keeping her image means nothing and she says she enjoys tormenting Stolas so it's obvious she didn't love him or at least care for the relationship so the “cheating prick” means nothing now. All this buildup and for what? why say these things and then discredit them now? you could say that this is the moment the audience can build up hatred for her but in a single episode? with already so much to take in? thats barley enough time really.
Even though Jax is a menace, I still love him. Not because he’s a good person (because he really isn’t) but because he is kinda silly
I love him too 😄He's fun to watch. He's definitly not a good person, but he is a good character. He's entertaining and is taking action. Story would be different without him
Im sorry, but getting angry about something that was REMOVED before release or about something not fitting in with ones headcannon is just too much for me. The thing was removed/didnt even make it to fruition. It doesnt exist. Its finished already. Its not even beating a dead horse, its digging for bones. Then beating up the bones because the bones once stood next to a person who would eventually turn into a criminal. It just doesnt make sense unless you dont care whether it makes sense or not.
I have been in fandom spaces for many years and I have seen my fair share of chronically online people going out of their way harassing people for shipping, policing people over fan art, and making unnecessary callout post on random users just for following someone that they don't like. I wish there is a rule online where if you're in a fandom don't make it as a personality to the point it will hurt other people.
I have see people leaving fandom because of these chronically online people and it make me sad. Fandom is meant to be fun and a small escape.
It is tragic. So many good things like art and fanfics being made can be ruin by anonymous bullies. Despite it I still stay as it seems like in many different fandoms, drama repeats. but I try to see the good. Sadly Steven Universe was ruin for me since that artist was bullied into attempting at their own life due to drawing rose skinny. So I don’t touch that ever again.
I feel like a big part of the “bullying creators to get what they want” scenario stems from what happened with the first Sonic movie. People saw that if they barked loud enough, they could get creators to change what they want changed. They fail to realize that Sonic’s design was changed out of fear of profit loss because it was Paramount helming the distribution. This should not work with indie productions as creative freedom should lie with the creators, not the mob of fake fans
From my personal experiences, fandoms have never been fun. Just enjoy the shows, movies, and games you love without engaging with terminally online people. You'll be much happier.
This.
Fandoms expect way too much and get upset at the tiniest things that doesn’t meet their standards, it’s sad.
Actually, I never would've met some of my closest friends if it weren't for sharing Fandom interests.
It's what brought us together,
In my opinion, fandoms can either be the most fun you’ve ever had, or literal hell on earth (or both sometimes). Depends on the fandom tbh
@@CheeseyWitchyeah same!! I met one of my best friends because we both liked wings of fire, and she basically introduced me to everybody in my friend group because of that!!
It just depends on the fan some are nice and understanding others are the worst people you will ever meet
And you didn't even mention WD Gaster, the Undertale character whose only canon existence is being a super rare easter egg that instantly vanishes when you try to talk to him (and the entity that does that isn't even 100% confirmed to be him), meanwhile the fandom has gone wild with this guy making him into his own brand of Tumblr Sexyman/Troubled Scientist. Frankly I hope Toby Fox never had any plans for him, because it's guaranteed that they won't meet the fandom's expectations of him.
Personally I hope he ends up with more of a funky creachur aura
Honestly, as someone who is dating someone with her own interpretation of Gaster, I hope that the character doesn't exceed the "weird meta commentary on out of bounds, glitching, etc. easter egg" bubble either. I respect Toby as a creator, so I'm sure that he would do fine if he fleshed out the character more, but its been so long since Undertale came out that I wonder if it would be possible to meet even laid back fans' expectations.
I want him to be legitimately desperate and deeply traumatised from being ‘shattered across time and space’ because let’s be honest, if there’s one thing the undertale fandom DOESNT do, it’s address trauma beyond throwaway tortured backstory or some plot point for their Y/N fic.
Deltarune seems to be developing him but it’s far from confirmed.
Honestly, I hope he stays the creepy, ominous genius he comes across as in the follower dialogue and Entry Number 17. It would help him be juxtaposed to the rest of the cast.
But, if he is just as silly as the skelebros, that would be an incredible subversion of expectations, something Toby does very well.
gaster is definitely _not_ going to suffer from people's expectations. for the first 2 years "gaster" was just a name attached to a bunch of interesting mysteries that don't really point towards anything characterisation-wise, and then with deltarune we only have more mysteries that concretely only tell us he has some agency.
the events surrounding his disapearance can be infered to be anything and his personality might as well be one of a black hole. This basically led to him being litterally used differently in every signle theory/fan fiction/AU/animation/etc that's not to mention the fact that the unknown limit of his ability makes him the perfect candidate to be given any mcguffin necessary to kick nay story off, leading to him being even more involved in stories that don't need him which further increase the plurality of interpretations of his character.
there's simply no way that he couldn't meet the people's expectations when the fandom is ready to accept him in the role of an uncaring scientist, a kind father, a tragic figure, an agent of good/bad, a mastermind manipulating everything from the shadows, an incomprehensible higher being, someone stuck in a power struggle over the entire world, just some creepy easter egg, etc, etc
Probably the saddest part of the fandom's reaction is that Gooseworx actually anticipated this with their video "POMNI WAKE UP TIME TO GO ON AN ADVENTURE" when Cain mentioned the "violent shipping wars that we'll be powerless to do anything about!"
The Fandom and Jax reminds me a lot of how the cricket was to Jack Horner in Puss in Boots the Last Wish.
Cricket was acting as Jack's conscious and tried to see any good in him.
Meanwhile Jack was this despicable monster who didn't care for anyone. Not his employees, not animals, not the cricket, etc. His "tragic backstory" was he grew up with "useless crap" like having a good family and a thriving business. Also he was willing to sh00t a puppy (Yeah, in the face! Why?)
Then when Cricket found out he's an irredeemable monster, Jack's like
"Oh oh, what took you so long, idiot!!"
Yeah that's what this reminds me of. The fandom WANTS to see good in Jax and meanwhile Jax would be the type to tell his fans "What took you so long?"
New fandom theory: your cat is so charming that she becomes a cult leader
Isn't that just cats in general? I'm pretty sure there's an outright religious war going on with my three cats.
Hey, I love Jax 'cause he's an ass. Guess what guys? He stayed an ass. I can't believe it.
Shocking. Horrific. Character's being in character is the most deplorable thing to ever happen.
I remember watching TADC, and taking a what character are you quiz, and getting Jax, and honestly being shocked by it. Cannon vs Fannon was something I think I clued in on for the series very early on, even if I didn't realize it
One of the worst elements of modern fandom is the weird sense of ownership over the work to the point that they feel entitled to demand that the creators bend to their whims, and if/when they don't, they resort to all kinds of nastiness. I didn't think it'd ever get worse or more petty than the old "90% of the pros came from fandom & all have beef with each other" scene in comic books, but at least they weren't doxxing each other & threatening death as a default reaction. It's honestly something that makes someone (i.e. me) not want to share any creative work, since that kind of fan conduct just kinda feel inevitable.
This is why it's risky to do the thing that Goose and Vivziepop did: Put a pilot out for the internet, and then let it sit there like a rotting lemon. By the time you actually get to release ANYTHING else related to the series, the internet will already have stolen your show from you and you can either play into their expectations or face the wrath of an angry mob who didn't get what they were expecting. And the longer you make them wait, the more intense the reactions will be when something doesn't look like they wanted it to
It's not really a risk so much as it is a terrible mistake. At least Goose is willing to take the shitty parts into stride, while Vivziepop just cannot, to the point where she couldn't handle any form of criticism for a long time, even though she has since improved from that (though, that isn't to say she doesn't still have a long ways to go). I have the utmost inkling that Gooseworx regrets making this show, and you can't convince that she doesn't. Because if I released my cartoon pilot to the world, and let it sit there long enough for humans to absolutely taint it with their bullcrap, I would regret creating that show. Wholeheartedly. That's how much I hate humans and have absolutely no faith in them. It's disgusting and diabolical how bad we let it get. I hope this serves as a cautionary tale to all indie creators to NEVER make the same mistakes Viv and Goose made.
Yeah, I felt this way when I first heard about this drama!
Ever since I've been worried we might have another Chloe from Micralous Ladybug situation with this show.....
Tbf not as much time passed between TAMDC pilot and second episode. It just got widely popular and by the time they made the next episode like any crew would, people had already written their own things.
Vivzie is completely different. She had a preestablished fanbase. The characters came from an abandoned comic of hers then began being rewritten. By the time the pilot was out, she had a fanbase and had already shared a lot of details about the characters, which is the main criticism about HH: most information is outside the show and you're required to already be very invested to enjoy it.
I genuinely blame her for how indie pilots are now treated. She set up the expectation that the next episode wouldn't come before a long time so fans are used to just taking the base concept and running with it. She also set up the expectation that things are to take at face value (the writing will be on the nose and hold your hand) and that everything will be revealed quickly (you get who the characters are and their place in the narrative in the pilot/their first appearance or maximum in the second episode, the tone of the story is obvious and so is the message/point, the plot is stated and unravels quickly (the only reason HB breaks this one is because the writing is messy and everywhere, Viv straight up doesn't have a plot/narrative line nor does she stick to an episodic format)).
She low-key became the model for indie animation but writers like Goose don't fit that mold and somehow people don't notice it and treat her work differently. It's crazy because they CAN treat shows or different media in a different way. It's like the moment it's indie animation, it's put in that box that it can't escape. It doesn't help that indie art in general (the best example being Welcome Home) is treated the same and people feel entitled to someone's creation and characters. They forget that the creator(s) isn't (/aren't) big companies and that they're taking a personal project directly from someone's hands and throwing a fit because they believe they can get them to change it to their will.
It's a weird area but I'm glad Goose isn't relenting, unlike Viv. She deserves to share her creation and her vision!
@@nevaehhamilton3493it's not a mistake, it's what they have to do to get their shows funded. They don't have test audiences and Network executives.
@@ondiiinathere is no reason to throw Viv under the bus because other people are idiots. People treat her far worse than she deserves.
3:55 I do find it a bit funny that people view/viewed Sans as sexy, since he never came across to me like romance was something he cared about (though that is also my own headcanon, of course)
Yeah same. I think he’s just a chill dude, nothing he ever does in game hints to him being into anyone in that way. People are just weird imo
@@p3arl-luk1 People do attach traits to characters even if they don't express them in canon. I do that too, but the extent that people did/do this with Sans was a lot
Honestly lmao. The amount of people I've seen who simp over sans (or his ungodly amount of AUs but that's a whole other can of worms) is insane.
I ain't gonna lie that I still liked him as a character just like everyone else. Not as much anymore though, lol
I remember there was an old tweet by Toby Fox years and years ago where he pretty solidly alluded to both skeleton brothers being aro/ace but then the tweet was deleted suspiciously after hostile Soriel shipper reception.
@@IceFireofVoid if that's true that's... really sad.
I remember how this happened with the RWBY trailers it was insane to watch as people created a whole fandom cannon from a poster with silhouettes and music and slowly this fan made fandom grew upset as more information was parsed out with a large chunk of people feeling betrayed when the first episode was released cause they made this echo chamber and convinced themselves that this is what the show was going to be.
Trust me, it's only gotten worse in new ways. To the point, they weaponize Monty Oum's name when he's DEAD: th-cam.com/video/r5JKAQ_2TUg/w-d-xo.html
Sans appearance in Deltarune after years of fanon sans was what saved the character for me. Because it reminded me that Toby was around for Homestuck’s meta comedy and wrote him perfectly for an audience packed with expectations. He’s still the same lazybones with some good jokes, some light hints at deeper lore, and the flirtation with his own meta-awarness of what’s going on is exactly how you keep popular fan character the same when they return
People can't ever be mad because that show is not ever over yet like there are only two episodes.
Honestly, I do love being part of fandom. And I really do appreciate it (yes even the NSFW stuff). And ut makes me sad to see how purity culture is taking it over. Its getting harder and harder to just. Have fun. Play around with morally gray or even straight up evil characters. Mess around with characters like they're toys in a sand pit. Examine them closely under a microscope and pick them apart to see how they tick. Fantasise about how you or your special little OC would handle being in this world or that situation is with these characters. Working out how the story would change if this or that was different. They police ships, content and even which characters you like. They forget the principles that fansom has survived on: Ship and let ship, Don't like don't read, YKINMKATOK. And its really frustrating.
What does YKINMKATOK mean?
@@hannahmetzger4880your kink is not my kink and that’s okay (had to look this up lol)
i like to do some of the things that you mentioned with spamton from deltarune. he is a very interesting character to me psychologically and also writing wise. its interesting cause i find it hard to even call him evil despite him doing objectively bad things in both route of the game, but at the same time he definetly isnt good either. he is very morally gray but most of that is likely due to his very obvious insanity which is actually pretty sad to me. he is the first sympathetic/tragic villain character who i have actually genuinely felt bad for and even want to see change and get better even if he currently is far from being a great person. i like to watch content about him and even make or write stuff about him myself cause he's just such a genuinely interesting character to me
This is why I like Madness Combat. The creator (Krinkels) frequently interacts with the fan community by hosting Twitch streams.
All hail Krinkels!
All hail Krinkels!
All hail Krinkels!
All hail krinkels!
5:38 genuinely got psychic damage from mettatons face
oh my god I see it too
I JUST NOTICED 😃-
*I SAW YELLOW VENT, DARLING.
amogus
@@greenhydra10 The only yellow vent I want... Is some Alphysussy!
Personally, I’m very glad I checked out Goose’s Tumblr when the show first blew up. They’ve been very open about the kind of characterization they have intended from the start with characters like Jax and Gangle, basing them off of Poppy the Performer (Poppy and Kendamono, specifically.) It really helped me temper my expectations for Jax being a sadistic, seemingly heartless, ill-intentioned character, and it made watching Episode Two not be a surprise when he showed more of that sour personality off. I’m with you, I LOVE that Goose is sticking to their guns, even if I’ll always love the asshole-who’s-secretly-a-softie/has-a-heart trope. I do think it’s important to remember how YOUNG a lot of people are consuming TADC- that doesn’t excuse bratty, entitled behavior fully, of course, but I know my media literacy has only grown with my age. A lot of these kids will, with any luck and plenty of varied experiences, grow out of these narrow-minded lenses for what characters can and can’t do, or can and should be.
I, for one, LOVE where the crew is taking Jax. It's been so long since we've gotten an asshole character. Not these fake-out, sad-boy, i-can-fix-him types we've had recently. Jax so far is an asshole with his whole chest and I am LIVING for it.
omg, this reminds me of how the fnaf fanon bastardized william afton, they portray him as a loving father who only killed because of some made up sad backstory, while he canonically is basically a monster, a freak, a psycho and most importantly an abusive father who beat, experimented on and tried to kill his children
Gooseworx: "Only the strongest Jax fans will survive this series." Many people missed SERIES, and thought they only meant ep 2. Jax has been confirmed to be WORSE.
It's a bit weird to hear that people think episode 2 Jax is different from episode 1. So far the character has been pretty consistent.
It's not just weird, but also incredibly stupid. Like seriously? What were they expecting? And it's not just Jax who's been receiving the hate in the show, also for completely stupid reasons.
In my opinion, the main 3 characters in tadc are based on the 3 most common video game player archetypes, from what I’ve seen as a genshin player who goes online a lot. Ragatha would be the one who does as told, sticks on the path, the lawful good player. Pomni would be the new player, needing help from others and doing the weirdest shit, and getting attached to some of the npcs, and Jax would be the murder hobo imma kill everyone I see player :3
If people can’t accept Jax for who he is, they don’t deserve him. It’s the “I can fix him” mentality at it again. Next up we should talk about how rude male characters are treated better than rude female characters.
"My sister in Christ, he stabbed you in the stomach!"
I like how Jax isn’t the tumblr sexy man 90% want and was just a mischievous little rabbit, I prefer this over whatever people thought Jax was gonna be
Honestly Jax being a total asshole (and later on becoming a clear antagonist) is only putting his chances of him becomeing the next massive tumblr sexy man higher and higher (as appose of what I heard people say for some reasons), like even if tumblr sexy men where all these uwu ideal and cute man who is just a good person/boyfriend inside or something, which is defitely not the case, many of those who are the depicted this way by the fandom are actually the worst person in the source material; Examples: William Afton, Bill Cipher, Blackhat, literally any villian who becomes a sexy man (the cases of these characters are all not cases either but you get the point is a common one), my point is, what ends up turning some of these characters "atractive" is in fact that in a creative aspect is a really funny challenge trying to come with how a version of this character who is "irredeemable" in their source material could be like if they were "not that bad", and I think beyond the trope "I can fix him" but more towards a creative challenge kinda way where considering as many posibilities and stick with the one that appeals the most to each individual, that or people also just like villains to the point they want to date them because they are villians. Jax could fall in any of these cases if his character keeps going to that direction and as you said it "stays as a fan favorite" instead of all the other way around, which I dont get why I have seen people say that, but who knows, as you keept reappeating in the video the series has only 2 episodes so far and the final direction it might take is complitely unknown at this point
Yeah, he's making the trip from Twitter sexyman to *Tumblr* sexyman
Personally, I don't really care about fandoms, because I know you'd find quite a few oddball characters in it. Especially when said people can potentially hinder my enjoyment out of the media in question
Most recently I watched an anime called "The Quintessential Quintuplets" (call me basic, I don't care) out of boredom at first, and actually became quite invested in it, I do know that if I told people I was watching it they'd either tell me it's bad or call my tastes basic or whatever but I enjoy what I enjoy and I ain't letting nobody tell me otherwise
(Even though I question some choices in that show's writing)
But when it comes to Digital Circus, I also tend not to care about the fandom and instead just let the canon writers... ya know, canonically write. Bottom line, just enjoy what you enjoy, let the writers and show runners cook, and don't let people put ideas about media in your head
Also welcome to the Cat Mama Club
What I find intriguing about expectations in fandoms is the observations I've made within the Sonic and TMNT fan communities. In the Sonic fandom, most characters have distinct personalities that fans appreciate, but some have been simplified, like Tails being portrayed as lacking self-confidence,even though he has already gone through his character arc. This and lacking purpose was the problem with Tails in the 2010s (the Meta era as fans call it). Then in Sonic Forces, Tails regressed in his character,fans got pissed and in Frontiers,Sonic reminded Tails what he did and is going through his arc again,a move appreciated by fans including myself.
This shows how fan expectations can impact character evolution in a good way.
Sonic himself has unique adaptations, but they were all meant to be Sonic at the time, except for the Movie Sonic and '90s cartoons. The '90s cartoons had a loose connection to the original games, but some core characteristics like Sonic's desire for freedom remained consistent. It’s funny because Sega's attempt to establish rules through Prime and IDW comics has sparked further debate among fans, with some choosing to disregard the established rules altogether. Despite complexities, having different interpretations of Sonic is not necessarily negative. As a Sonic fan, I believe there's a way to work out these interpretations.
Before delving into TMNT, it's important to clarify how the universes operate. The crossover movie "Turtles Forever" was created some time ago and may no longer be considered canon, but it still holds relevance until an official remake is produced. According to the movie, Mirage Comics serves as the original universe, with all other TMNT universes existing as alternate timelines. For instance, 2012 Michelangelo differs from Mirage Mikey, but both are versions of Mike (does that make sense?):
Now, transitioning to my main point: The TMNT characters are based on established archetypes, and different versions either adhere to these archetypes or deviate from them. Rise of the TMNT aims to challenge these archetypes, as seen in the portrayal of Raphael. In Rise of the TMNT, Raph is depicted as a ruff and tumble but caring leader . He now assumes the role of the older brother, with being hyper-aggressive rather than angry-aggressive. It makes you think how much a character can be changed.
Another point: The relationship dynamic between characters like Mike and Rapheal in the 2012 TMNT fandom have sparked debates on whether certain behaviours are justified or not. This has caused some fans to see the relationship as abusive, while others see it as great,it gets you to think.
Interpretations of traits and whatever else affect the media and the fandom,for example in the Rise movie,Donnie is shown to want to choose when he is touched but some people took this and thought he didn’t like touch at all even though the show disproves this.
Last points: Since April and Casey are support characters,the way they are treated in fandom is interesting:
1. As a support for the turtles,there are other characters but I think they aren't known and/or have much of an impact as them.
2.As characters in the story,think of the Idw comics for example (or 2012 cause that's more known). This middle ground of them being a part of the turtles story but also their own can work pretty well and I like it more than them just being support characters.
3. Having their own story/being the main character: I know it's not exactly the same thing but they both take a character who while they can have their own stories and/or arcs,are now the focus,I like this too.
My final point is this weird shipping thing with Casey,April and the turtles:
Since April is a girl, some people annoyingly expect her to date one of the turtles,even if that April is an adult,though that is more outside of the fandom,inside April is at least a teen or is portrayed in a non-romantic way. Other people ship her with a girl,Eg Karai and some of course ship her with Casey (except Rise Casey Jr would be non romantic because Casey Jr grew up with the future April).
Casey is the same when it comes to shipping except since he is a male character,he can be used as an anti-April ship or can have more importance than her (though there's fics where April is important and Casey is ignored).
It's weird you can ship 2012 Casey and Donatello but not Rise Casey Jr and Donnie,anyway those are my thoughts on how expectations affect characters in fandoms I'm in.
Your animation of your OC is really smooth! Also congratulations on a new cat!
I remember watching Moon Bunnies' video on Jax, and that practically set up my expectations for the character.
Even so, prior to knowing a thing about Jax, I knew he must've been based on abusive boyfriends just from the psychological traits he has in common with them, particularly his outward expression of psychopathy. People who use humor to deflect bad situations, particularly those like the Blue Turtle from Rise of TMNT (I think his name was Leonitalo?) know that you should not cross certain lines with certain people, but Jax has managed to cross through everyone's boundaries. Jax is not humorous. He routinely hurts multiple other members of the circus and deliberately works everyone else to an Abstractisizing level. He does not care for others. He never did, and he probably never will. Genuine Psychopathy is nothing like ADHD, OCD, or Autism, it is something that requires an incredible amount of work to get through and unfortunately, it is unlikely anyone, particularly Caine, could ever give Jax that kind of support.
0:18 When you started talking about a franchise's fandom eclipsing the franchise itself, I immediately thought of Warrior Cats.
People forget that fiction is fiction sometimes.
I remember this one post on Reddit asking about whether or not the child of a human and half-giant would be mechanically human.
You’re writing the story! You get to decide how it works.
Gosh this is reminding me of the Portal fandom’s obsession with turning all the robots human. It got to the point where people saw the humanized characters, decided to play the game, and were confused and disappointed when the characters were robots. I remember one post where a person talked about how they thought that SURELY there must be a plot twist later on where it turns out these robots were actually controlled by humans the whole time, and were disappointed when that didn’t happen.
(It also got exhausting being in the fandom when the humanizations were so expected that people wouldn’t even tell you if they were writing human AUs-you would start reading a fic and suddenly Wheatley references having two eyes, or hands, and then you realize “ah, this is an AU.” For a while, I had to specify that my own fics did NOT feature humanizations because people just… expected you to make the characters human. It was wild.)
That sounds....mild compared to what's happening with Jax......
@@DrawciaGleam02 Oh definitely, it’s not as extreme, but it’s an example of something similar happening.
@@BabyCharmander
I've seen the human versions of Portal and they look great!!!
@@DrawciaGleam02 I didn’t say the humanizations of the robots people draw look bad! I was saying that, for a time, that was ALL that got drawn, to the point where other people saw this and didn’t realize Portal was about robots, and where they expected everyone to just WANT stories about the humanizations rather than the robots so they wouldn’t even label their fics as human AUs.
I felt this in the helluva boss fandom with Stella. Fans were pissed because their fan theories about her weren’t canon. Fans felt she would have a certain emotional depth but were upset when season 2 came out and turns out she’s been horrible since childhood. Her marriage was arranged, she was awful to stolas before he cheated. She enjoyed insulting him as a husband and man. She admits she enjoyed tormenting him when asked why she hangs around the castle when they’re in the process of a divorce. She hired a hit man to kill him. Fans saying this was character assassination I don’t get cuz till season 2 we had little to go on for her character. All we knew was she was angry at Stolas for cheating, hired a hit man to kill him, and has an anger problem. That’s it. There was a long gap between season 1 and 2 enough for fans to have theories and that’s fine, it’s fun. But when your theory is wrong, it doesn’t mean the character was ruined. Sure there are times when a fan theory may be a better idea than what happens in canon, but for characters that are almost a blank slate for character development, theories are there to fill in blanks. Some are close to canon, some are way off. But it’s all in fun. I can’t blame people for being disappointed if their theories are wrong cuz I get that, but to then say ‘oh the story is bad, or the character was ruined’ is a leap.
Helluva boss as well as Viv in general have genuine criticism that is valid and if her stories or characters aren’t your liking, that’s fine, but just because a character you felt would go one way instead of another, doesn’t mean the character was ruined. Especially if that character wasn’t fully developed, the creator already had an idea how that character would be.
People who were freaking out over Jax fall into two categories depending on if he'll ever have sweeter layers.
1) impatient baboons.
It's only episode 2. We are not gonna get a look at any possible good side he has so early.
2) People who just cannot/refuse to read the room.
I'm pretty sure Jax is probably just gonna be an awful jerk to everyone the whole run.
It does not matter if he looks sad sometimes, when his consistant action is to be terrible to everyone instead of being a friend.
I remember there being something with Sonic fans on twitter that had the actual creators saying “Hey stop it”.
I personally stick to the simple headcanon that the Pale King from Hollow Knight was absolutely devastated when he learned that the void beings actually DID have a mind, and that he committed his atrocity (for minimal spoilers) for absolutely nothing. If he could wind back time, he’d likely take the second chance in a heartbeat and start loving his kids like a proper father
Fans: Jax is going to like angel dust a secret sad boy
Jax: I don't care about any of you I just want to see funny things happen to people
YAYYY YOU AND DUCHESS CELESTIA POSTED TODAY! TODAY IS A GOOD DAY
Literally just finished watching hers agffhfjgcb
Which Duchess Celestia video, specifically?
@@hannahmetzger4880 The one about using too many layers
part of the problem, i feel, is the increasing tendency of building people to not want their preconceptions challenged. if this is how they react to fictional works because they're hellbent on everything being perfectly predictable and comfortable, god knows how they react to real-life situations...
I find it funny how a character called jax, which sounds a lot like jackass and has plenty of reason to think of him as a jackass in the pilot is in fact the jackass of the group... hmm, interesting
Do you know what this reminds me of? Stella from Helluva Boss! A LOT of people hate how she is written because it goes against what THEY wanted her to be, an innocent victim who LOVED Stolas instead of the vulgar, spoiled, cruel woman who was FORCEDLY married to him by their families! Seriously, nothing in the show indicated that she even loved Stolas, she's clearly more pissed off that he humiliated her in front of her friends and that he had an affair with an Imp (a low-class demon), not that she was " betrayed" by Stolas, because for there to be betrayal there would have to be some kind of connection between the two people, but that was never the case and to this day there are people whining about it just because she is not an innocent person that many wanted.
yeah, cheating is bad, but remember, SHE IS ABUSIVE!! ABUSE AGAINST MEN EXISTS AND SHOULD NOT BE TREATED AS IF IT WAS NOT A SERIOUS THING!! Honestly, I have zero sympathy for abusers and I always had the impression that she was always aggressive towards him before the betrayal because she simply attacks him and everyone acts as if this was a common occurrence. Plus the fact that she always ignores Octivia! Seriously, people have to stop acting like their headcanon about her is correct!!
I don't care if she is Pure Evil or if she is Sympathetic. I just wished she was written better. Whenever you made her a Bad Person with Understandable Anger or a Pure Evil Mother Gothel-type Villain, as long as she was written good.
Unfortunately she is written to be as unpleasant as possible and it sucks…
@@liannabunny7775 yeah, I'll have to agree with that, that's my problem with her, she goes from hateful to annoying very quickly. I want to hate her, not roll my eyes at her antiques.
I thought she was hated? Clearly her character is nothing more than an abusive bitch that has the audience feel sympathy for Stolas despite the fact he did cheat. I’m not saying he shouldn’t have not cheated since Stella is a horrible person, but he did technically cheat still? Anyway, I doubt we’ll get anything sympathetic with Stella because she’s pretty… flat? Maybe we’ll see more as to why she’s like this, or maybe not. Also if anything, I see Mammoth and Crimson getting more fans than her.
@@liannabunny7775I think that's the point though. She's _supposed_ to be a Hate Sink, you're _supposed_ to hate her. You're not supposed to like her at all.
@@hannahmetzger4880 But you got some Hate Sinks like Judge Frollo who are also loved by many. You can make a Hate Sink at least enjoyable to watch
I love that people hate Jax in this case because he killed a bunch of NPCs who, in the same episode, have been established to not matter and their existence past what the crew sees isnt even proven to exist. Gummigoo has no mom, the majority of the candy people are just mannequins, and theres a literal dev room with all the available models in the level assets, im fairly certain that when they leave the world either resets or goes into stasis. The entire point of the episode is that Pomni is the only one who doesnt know trying to help these things is fruitless and dumb, Jax is just the other end of the spectrum having fun messing with and brutalizing things that have no real soul. Its like a kid figuring out the goofiest way to kill/torture a minecraft villager or a GTA cop lol
Woah! I can’t believe I’m this early!
As a Star Wars fan, it gets so annoying when people have such high expectations and then get angry when what they theorize didn’t happen. Or in Ninjago’s case, when Lloyd became the Green Ninja instead of Kai. Look, I love trying to imagine and theorize what might happen, and even if what I want to happen doesn’t happen, it doesn’t change my excitement about what I’m watching. At the end of the day, it’s all fun and fiction. And sometimes the unexpected is better because it shows that the writers aren’t as predictable.
It's been 12 years, Lloyd is Green Ninja, the prophecy hasn't been relevant for 10 years
They need to move on
A fandom would always be a classic fandom no matter what property become immediately popular! Also, very pretty cat! (17:20) 🐈
Jax is apparently also on his way to Tumblr sexy man status
The nice thing about headcanons is that even if theyre not actually canon, they still get to exist. Though it is still always fun when theories become canon
Unfortunately, the fan theories becoming canon has happened way too much for way too long. It needs to stop. We need to stop overfeeding our fans with fanservice and good content. Those gluttonous pigs are never satisfied with what we give them! They're so ungrateful! They don't deserve us! None of them deserve to have nice things and be happy!
I wasn't ever expecting Jax to be a kind, good soul. He's a terrible guy, but in the pilot he was clever. In episode two he's just kinda violent.
Since we are only on episode two, I'll just chalk it up to writing. I just hope we get to see Jax being more clever in the future.
I laughed when you said “seriously, a skeleton” because I was and still am a bill cipher stan 😭😭
As for Jax, some of us WANT a genuine jerk. I don’t want an empathetic storyline or hidden agenda. I LOVE me a bitch who causes chaos. I’m glad the creator isn’t changing their plan, and I honestly hope Jax continues being the way he is 🫢
Letting fandom and fanon influence my perception of a show before I've gotten a chance to see it is something I feared would happen with Hazbin Hotel. So instead of fully diving into everything the fandom had to offer during the years of waiting I did my best to keep my interactions with the fandom to what I considered enough for me.
I stayed away from HuskerDust. At first I didn't care for it but after a while I saw the potential and appeal for the ship but I never let myself get invested because I realized if I did I would've let the fanon throw my expectations out of whack and set me up for failure once the show premiered. I think it's great fans can keep their enthusiasm while they wait for indie projects to come out but I think it's also the people who never give themselves a break from the fandom that set these expectations too high or end up skewing their perception of what the actual show and characters are because they've been creating fanon in their minds for so long.
What's funny about this to me is that I didn't like Jax from the get go. Seemed to be designed on purpose to be disliked actually, like, a character you're supposed to hate but later maybe find out they are much more complex and possibly even redeamable in some way. But like... come on, he was written as a total asshole. I never understood people who had this weird attraction to him as a character from episode one.
I will say this, if people can like Big Jack Horner from Puss in Boots 2 for being an unapologetic jerk they can like Jax for being an unapologetic jerk
Considering some fandoms will literally send out vile abusive bunches of crap towards creators if a character they have head-canoned as being one sexuality turns out not to be that sexuality, or if their ship is not canon, or if the jackass character turns out to not be a sad-boy whom "just needs love", and on and on; I tend not to care what the fandom response towards a series I enjoy is anymore. I can only hope for the best for the creators and hope they can continue making their series their way, not what a bunch of terminally online professional crybullies want.
I have learned that the only "fandom" you need is a small circle of your mutuals in whatever social media you meet up in, a tissue, a penny, and a potato chip. I'm in the TADC fandom and I never heard of anyone in my circle complaining about Jax or sending harassment.
Just gonna say. Being upset over bad writing ≠ being upset your head canons weren’t canon. Cough cough Stella cough cough
My observations of Fandom Culture at large leads me to feel like this particular type of case is about less what did happen and was undone but more like what "seemed" to be happening but didn’t. Fandom loves the hypothetical. The theories, the speculation. A lot of it is very personalized even when fans come together to pitch their own takes.
As such, there’s a personal investment factor in these malleable concepts that’s distinct from engaging in the hardwared canon. It’s a sandbox where the material you’re working with can be molded into what suits you. Canon can be too often, “Here it is: take it or leave it.” Fanon is more accomadating to those who might want to change things.
Bare in mind, I’m not trying to advocate for one or the other here. Fanon depends on canon, warts and all, and a Fandom can’t flourish without it period. But sometimes we mistake Fanon for what should happen and ignore the innate placeholder status they have. Thus Canon is seen as an intrusion when, well, it’s just the show itself.
I love Jax, now hate me cuz I love chaotic characters that make me laugh.
I love Jax so much and my brain was so worried they would tone him down, but they didn’t and I love him even more❤
This reminds a lot of the smosh fanfics, people are think cursed and they gotta show it to the world. For this alone, i hope people take this into consideration before having a career revolving the internet because you basically giving up control on a public scale. You can either fight or ride it, I just don't want to hear people on the net complain about.
This is the danger of parasocial relationships. There needs to be a serious scientific study in the mentality of fandoms.
Now phantoms can be great, but sometimes this kind of crap is just terrifying.
This occurs with physical media as well bands for example the Beatles and Elvis Presley also had very weird fan base.
Pants thrown on stage, sometimes psycho fans with their weird love when there was none and all of that.
There were also cases of mischaracterisation in the fandom.
It's way older phenomenon than people realize.
The undertale effect. A fine title, I think it fits well.
Woooooooo, gotta love flanderization. People need to realize that their preconceived notions of a character or story are just that. Preconceived. Watch the show, and pay attention to how the characters actually act instead of jumping the gun and deciding before stuff has even been released. I don’t think this is an issue of literacy. Some people are just, that stupid apparently.
Maybe it's how they perceive character.
Undertale has been released for pretty long but only now people started to pay attention to how Sans is characterized after a lot of mischaracterisation of characters throughout the 8 years.
Thanks to people who started politely point out how people don't create Sans but they create a different character with name of Sans slapped on that character.
It's fine with AU's that are different from canon or aren't placed in canon story.
However it becomes a problem when story is placed in canon or uses canon characters as a drive for the story and mischaracterisation still occurs.
i never heard of that dream daddy controversy. All i knew was what the gaming youtubes were playing (mainly the craig route before moving on) and thats it
As always, a pleasure to listen to. I don't engage with Fandom much myself, but listening to someone with knowledge and enthusiasm for the subject is generally a hoot, and very informative window into the indie and lgbtq+ sphere.
This is likely going straight to the bottom of the comment section, but IDK. While I will agree with your last point, in that "Creatives don't listen to their fans as much as we may think," I still can't help but consider the possibility that power dynamic may be slowly shifting.
One good example of this would have to be the "Sonic Movie situation." For those unaware, Sonic was originally going to look drastically different then what we currently recieved, right up until massive fan backlash resulted in the film being delayed so they can make a more appealing design. Had Paramount and the creatives behind the film not listen to the criticism regarding the design, it's likely the film would have retained the old design; and possibly not be as big a sensation as it was.
Another example of fans having some influence over the product is regarding "SVTFOE" and how Daron Nefcy began to prioritize shipping over her actual story. I feel this goes without saying, but "Star Vs" has one of the least-conclusive conclusions to a story ever written; with many of them being attributed to Nefcy's shortcomings as a writer. It's hard to say how much of the fanbase fed into these shortcomings, but if you pay attention to the rate of shipping-related episodes and plot-centric episodes appear, you can see a shift corresponding to the former appears more frequently than the ladder; likely when these shipping wars were reaching their peak.
I don't want this comment to be too long, so I'll leave off with this: if these past few years have proved anything, with massive film studios like Disney or Warner Bros loosing millions, it's that fans are realizing that they have more power over the industry than they realize. With fans providing a project's main source of income, creatives will need to ride that line between their own creative vision and fan-expectations.
"creatives will need to ride that line between their own creative vision and fan-expectations."
THIS.
I'm really worried for Gooseworx if it turns out her original vision for Digital Circus turns out to not be great in the eyes of the fandom.
I remember when Sailor Moon Crystal came out and Sailor Moon fans HATED IT. Which was AWFUL because Crystal was closer to the original manga story (and the creator's vision) than the 90's anime.......
Imagine being a creator and finding out your original vision for a story harms its perception with its audience.
the whole thing on not letting fandom perception dictate what you think of media is so real; i swore to myself that i wouldn't get into Undertale because of the things i'd heard about the fandom, but then the bone-boy himself dragged me by my hair, unfortunately, but i actually found a pretty nice side of the fandom to hunker down in, not to mention the fandom has calmed down a LOT since it's baby years.
sometimes you just have to swim a little deeper into the trench to find that secret cove, ya know?
This is why I love being a Touhou fan. There are a heap of cases where a character has been interpreted a certain way for *years*, and then the creator has turned around and gone “yeah no, it’s basically the opposite”. For example, one of the most popular pairings of characters are Aya and Momiji, but then we get a game which explicitly states they hate each other. The bulk of our community respond either with “cool, we’ll rework how they’re shown going forward” or “cool, we’ll continue as we have been” and *both sides generally respect these decisions*. Some even take an approach of using the new information to create a bridge between canon and existing fanon; in the aforementioned Aya/Momiji case, a few depictions explored them getting over initially disliking each other. Sure, there are always bad apples (and Touhou fans will appreciate that wording), but there’s a broad culture of accepting that different people view different characters in different ways.
I personally lean more towards canon, but some of my favourite Touhou fan creations embrace very different lenses to view their characters.
The dream daddy fandom could never handle revolutionary girl utena
Bro I LITTRALLY NEVER EVEN NOTICED A CHANGE IN JAX IT WAS WHAT I EXPECTED AND I STILL LOVE HIM HE'S A LOVABLE ASSHOLE WHO ISN'T BEJNG VERY REDEEMABLE RIGHT NOW AND I STILL THINK THIS IS A VERY COOL CHARACTER LIKE GUYS LOOK CAN PEOPLE NOT SEE THIS WORK OF ART HE'S HORRIBLE IN A BEAUTIFUL WAY
I believe that sometimes it’s due to the fanbase being so vocal about a way they want to see a character in a certain way that people actually start to believe it to be cannon
I do _not_ get anyone expecting Jax to be anything other than a complete psycho. I love him just as he is.
People thought Jax was nice or misunderstood? He was a jerk and not even a jerk with a heart of gold.
Fandoms, to me, will always be the worst part of any media. Although good-intentioned, I personally feel a lot of people in fandom spaces tend to admire to a fault. Make no mistake, It is perfectly fine to like something, even passionately ( I myself can be guilty for having strong opinions on video games like Mario Kart, for instance ), but I do think that it can be very easy to latch onto something too quickly and without making an educated judgement, only to be disappointed that they didn't meet our rushed expectations...
It's why I often tend to wait a good while before I decide whether the community is right for me, especially with media that's considered the flavour of the month. I still like the media shown to me ( I like a lot of the TADC characters, namely Pomni, and Jax because I knew he was intentionally designed to be an asshole ), but I think people need to separate the fandom from the media and realise you don't need to be part of the community in order to like it, nor should we be forced to share the same mindset/opinions; Same as we do with separating the art from the artist...
This. *THIS!!!!*
OH MY GOD, I can't believe I'm not the only one who thinks fandom suck and shouldn't exist! Thank you!
This is relatable