@@NoiseDay Same, as an aegoromantic (also aromantic spectrum) I find the crush/infatuation much more interesting than the actual relationship. I can still appreciate seeing characters in relationships, but I like seeing people crush on other people more.
I see it very rarely and generally find the actual relationship factors being sustained more interesting than the rest. Mainly since I thinknthe models even for those initial sections don't really fit the later sections or actually make sense as a model? I dunno I find the general representation of romance such a strange and flawed thing.
@@NoiseDayI'm demisexual, witch makes me the opposite of you on this regard, I prefer to see a couple working when they are a couple than the old "will they or will they not" rutine.
@@EarthboundBrainrot Tbh that’s one of shipping doubled edged graces, cause fans can have their own opinion who has chemistry. Though god have mercy on you if you are in the wrong shipping circle. 😅
That can applied to every aspect of writing. Character arc can work well if written properly and paced well. Rising action with climax can work if written properly and paced well. Endings can work if written properly and paced well. No hating, but that advice is incredibly vague and isn't unique romance in general. It's like telling an artist to practice drawing without giving a more specific concrete advise to improve on drawing something like a head.
Part of why lumity is my favorite ever ship (including non-canon ones) is because they actually give the relationship time to breath. All too often in media the relationship starts at the end as part of the happy ending, serving as the conclusion to the will they/won't they right up next to the climax, but that also means that we don't get much time at all for the characters to just be a thing, loving each other and weathering their relationship struggles unitedly and allowing the relationship timw to develop and help the characters grow. Also, thank you so much for talking about how patriarchy negatively affects both men and women, not enough people do that and I rarely see someone being this understanding about it, at least not on the Internet.
I agree that the main problem with romance in media is the perpetuation of that ideal of an armored knight meeting a fair damsel and living happily ever after. My favorite romance stories (which are not many) are about deeply flawed and troubled people who are able to be a little less flawed and troubled because of the support the loved one gives them. That's why I love Moonrise Kingdom despite… well… the age…
It kind of seems like the spectra is basically happily ever after, using ineffective coping mechanisms and trauma for drama over a relationship that may or may not last and the end the "unicorn" level rare type that is actually sustaining relationships that aren't as much for drama but more for just like character growth? Which I kind of suspect because wriring constructive collaboration through conflict with the relationship in a healthier place is actually harder. Since the aspects that tie the characters tend to start crossing into a lot more dynamics and actually make the characters matter a bit more in how they interact and solve the problem(and you can't use issues with the relationship as the sole conflict).
What I also found interesting about Tangled, which also makes the romance comfortable is that Flynn didn't try to "save her" when they met. It's more that he ended up influencing her on their journey, making her more confident. But that's only because Rapunzel first decided to leave and go on that journey.
Don’t see why it would’ve been a problem for Flynn to save her if he had. I mean, Rapunzel was being manipulated and isolated by an abusive mother-Flynn saving her from that and that kickstarting a romance wouldn’t have been unrealistic or problematic. I don’t see why everyone pretends that trope is evil nowadays. Anyway, I do partially agree. Flynn and Rapunzel’s romance feels more relatable because it isn’t some love at first sight or savior story-they fall in love as they get to know each other.
@@Doomzdeh Its less "man saving woman is bad" and more "making women exclusively helpless damsels who cant fend for themselves against men or in general". Not to be confused with one or two being helpless but the rest are still active and have agency, for example.
What made romance be "looked down upon" is how poorly cliched it has been in certain shows. The "Will they won't they", "love triangles", romanticizing unhealthy/parasocial relationships, list goes on. While some of these tropes can be done right, I just personally wanna avoid them for now. What I want to see more is encouraging positive relationship build-up. One great movie that was able to explore positive healthy relationships was Before Sunrise, Before Sunset & Before Midnight. Those movies tear away all the tropes to a more realistic approach to building chemistry. Established relationships should also be explored more in future stories as it'll allow communication lessons for both partners.
Not to mention that it became a tiring trope in animated films like Hotel Transylvania, Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs, Strange Magic, The Emoji Movie, and even Ice Age: Collision Course, where Sid somehow gets a girlfriend, even though he’s too stupid to deserve one.
Something I find interesting is how, in books 'romantasy' (romance and fantasy) is very popular rn. I'd be curious to know why romance in books is popular now where in film it seems to be significantly less present
I think you can note it primarily similar to tv shows as a factor of underlying economics. You must say actors to return to movies and shows and with the expansion of media it is much harder to have the same people come back unless they actually like the series(closest example in my head actually being Scott Pilgrim since the actors actually liked working with the director). So they are less incenticized to actually try relationships for long or extend them out as those characters actors may not stick around. I suspect this is why when romance is stable it's often side characters whose actors do stick around more. Books don't have this issue at all and can actually explore the full width as the author is the biggest controller of who is around and what characters do.
Money, I've noticed that in mainstream Hollywood they've really been pushing action movies ever since superhero movies got popular you can get a wider audience with them it's why Twilight was the last big romance movie. Meanwhile in reading spaces romance has exploded most apps about reading be it a comic app or regular book app are full of romance. We're also seeing mini TV show apps pop up and those are also mostly romance and of course streaming is also full of romance it's only dead in theaters and on cable TV and those are dying out.
tv shows and movies are wayyyy more gatekept than books and needs to be greenlit, anyone can write a book but you need toooons of money and a crew for tv shows/movies. and the folks withholding the funds HATE risks
To be honest, I'd rather have romance done more rarely but done well more often than a bunch of romances shoehorned into stories where they don't add anything.
I really didn't like how Frozen handled the fast marriage thing. Kristof thinks it's absurd but the second his parents see him with Anna they try to get them married. And then Anna thinks it's silly but still wants to get with Hans. Also why is Kristof so anti quick marriage if his entire community is so pro shotgun marriage? I hate the Rock Trolls in Frozen.
Thanks for coming on to the pod again! On a minor note of an older woman and younger man couple, that's weirdly controversial among executives who often try to stomp it out as opposed to an older man and younger woman even today. I remember in Marvel comics Danny Rand and Misty Knight were a very rare couple for not only being one of the earliest interracial couples in comics but also because Misty was older than Danny.
In the sphere of media I consume, (usually anime and comics) romance was my gateway for me when I was younger but as I got older I totally am leaning more into more dark or thriller centric things because the plot and drama is more elevated to me. Not that I still don't love romance, I totally do, but I like to take it in specific doses and/or use it as comfort.
My problem with Brave is it felt like they had to make the love interests awful to justify her not being interested. Because it would just be too weird for the suitors to be normal and Merida not fall for them.
@@josefagomezschmeisser8356 Fun fact, I exclude Rapunzel and only see three of the Big Four as the main team. For me, the team only consist of the main guy, his chaotic yet charming best friend and his strong hotheaded female friend who is also his love interest.
It’s not that “Romance is Dead” it’s that a lot of people are pointing out how problematic and tired some Romance tropes are (love triangle’s, miscommunications, will-they-won’t-they, gross power dynamics) and actually want something that is believable
The timing of this in the same month as NeverKnowBest's video on romance in video games, I guess this month is just bringing this feeling out of people
I may be biased as an acespec person, but I think the best romantic relationships also feel like best friends. It's more interesting (at least, to me) when a couple just happens to be a couple. When they prioritize friendship over romance or sex. Romance is still there, obviously, but it's not the only thing going for them. Also related: There has always been a certain look or expectation when it comes to romance, like there's only one or two ways to experience it. Meanwhile best friends, siblings, parent and child, you name it, all have wider representation in stories now. Romance is also the most advertised, marketable relationships, comparatively to everything else (I mean, compare Valentine's Day to Father's/Mother's Day. Is there even a friend or sibling day? Maybe, who knows.) Sure, there's stuff like bff charms, parent letters/flowers, etc., but romance has multiple selling points: "crush on someone, date them, marry them, the end". It's simplified down to an expectation, an industry to follow. It takes so much many to even be allowed to exist with another person. That also has to do with the loneliness epidemic and romance decline: money. It's a lot easier to have a friend than it is to have a partner, financially. Also why online friends are on the rise.
Of the few movies I've seen recently "Love Hard" is a good example of the "friends to lovers" trope since the romantic feelings are started with e-commnication before meeting and then trying to both pretend to date (for his family) and he's helping her try and impress the guy she thought he was. The friendship they start with makes their later romantic connection easier to understand, but most films tend to follow the weird rushed feeling that makes it hard to take seriously
Agreed. I'd rather have a friendship that naturally grows into a romance between two people who know & respect each other than yet another "they fight & insult each other constantly but are secretly in love" pairing.
the only truly worthwhile romance trope is "two idiots in love and neither know". i will die on this hill. we need more romance in media, but EXCLUSIVELY of this type.
I feel like "idiots in love and neither know" almost encapsulates what made Catradora an interesting ship, much like Seamista; both Catra and Adora were so focused on trying to "reconnect" with the other but didn't know how they were hurting each other until the final moments. Seahawk and Mermista being a one-sided relationship and both being too inept to adequately express how they felt until the last episode. It would definitely be entertaining to see this trope used, but to compliment this I've written a few romance stories using the "girlfriend experience/fake dating" trope and both being (largely) too inept to admit their true feelings
Bringing up the fact of people in current relationship and exploring more of that aspect is such a big thing that so much media misses out on. It would be cool to see how a couple deals with the challenges a relationship faces in life
I feel like it's just a pendulum effect. For years romance was important to a lot of narratives and now people just sit and complain about it all the time. Like from the PoV of a webtoon romance creator hardly a day goes by in webtoon spaces where people don't make a thread or chat about how much they hate that romances are king there, even though most comic companies cater to boys or a neuter all ages audience. Disney has practically avoided a good romance for years and people still act like that's all they ever did even though it never was. People are trying to overcompensate and push back and companies caught on and started to cater to them and now we're in a drought. Or also those people that grew up thinking everything was romance went on to be creators who avoided it. Romance books are the last bastion but that's possibly because the barrier for entry is pretty low when you can self publish on kindle.
Great video, as always! I've been watching Cardcaptor Sakura lately, and it's fascinating how far romance tropes have come since the late 90s. A lot of CCS is simple, fairly-tale romance that leans heavily into bi rep. Both Sakura and Xiaolang have a crush on an older guy, and they both recognise that it's most likely unobtainable due to the age gap, yet both also accept that "(They) can't help falling in love"). Given the episodic nature of the show, it doesn't do much to press the romantic connections, but it does portray it with a good deal of emotional honesty that tempers some of the more squick aspects. An under-rated depiction of queer romance is in Marvel's Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur. Lunella herself is likely straight, and she does have a crush on Kid Creed, but she also admits that she isn't ready for a full romantic relationship yet. Queer romance is part of the background, but it doesn't feel tokenised like most of the mainstream marvel films, because it shows that queer people are part of life. They will get centre stage on occasion, making them feel like a natural part of the world. For me, it's a great contrast to something like Sakura, because it shows how far we've come in terms of depicting "Realistic" relationships. What Frozen did to "Disney style romances", despite still requiring a romantic pairing at the end, was what Blazing Saddles did to westerns. It called out what was already fast becoming popular perception, deconstructing the "Love at first sight tropes" to the point where it's ridiculous to think of it being played straight nowadays.
worked by being fake, it understood it wasn't real but was interesting the characters coping with it showing character growth than just "rep" real "representation" is characterizatio which is why it worked so well
I do enjoy romance to some extent. Romance works well to me with comedy. Not in a Rom-com sense but more in stuff like Anime. But I prefer lesbian romance because I can relate to that more. I do not enjoy something that's too cheesy but more light hearted. I can't define "cheesy" though. It's more of a vibe thing.
I'm guessing by "cheesy" you mean performative- when the romantic elements are blown out of proportion in a way that takes you out of the story. I love romcom anime because a lot of them are more situational or character comedy and unrequited pining. Live action romcoms seem to be more about sexual tension or pairing two toxic people. Or generally just not being actually funny. I'll admit I don't watch live action romance because it makes me cringe, but animated romance is all that gets me out of bed in the morning. Please leave your lesbian recs because I am seriously BL pilled right now
I do think romance is valuable in helping make comforting media when it is written realistically but also isn't take too seriously to the point it feels like a stern drama. For instance, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is one of my favourite films for this exact reason. It shows a set of characters who each have their differences and personal flaws but also demonstrate their good qualities to showcase a sweet yet geanuine romantic relationship. Despite having elements of sci-fi, it remains a fun yet grounded film.
AFAIK, romance is in decline most likely due to the aversion to "love interests" in blockbusters in the pre-Frozen era. A lot of critics, artists, writers etc. has criticized the inclusion of "love interests" in most blockbusters as a cheap, cynical ploy to gain more audience. Perhaps the current Disney movies lacking any romance is a reaction to their criticism.
Not relevant to Disney, but it makes me think that blockbuster producers realize they can't keep treating women the way they used to, but also they have no idea how to write a compelling female character. Their best guess is "don't need no man."
Personally I still have the "weird aversion to romance" when it comes to media, but I think that's just because I'm gay and there's basically no good m/m relationships in media, and I just physically can not make myself care about the (usually straight) relationship storylines that are seemingly forced into every show or movie.
SAME!! I used to feel really bad for only watching or reading bl/gl stories but straight relationships between characters who feel better as friends are SO COMMON nowadays. They'd rather force a romance between two straight friends than write anything queer, and it's honestly kind of sad.
Yeah I have noticed that queer relationships in media tend to be lesbian relationships rather than gay ones. I think it's just due to how we view men as more sexual inherently. And while as a lesbian I eat that shit up where it's found, I definitely can see the problem.
@@Lemoncakelover678 true I don't get the panic over the 'everybody's hot no body is horny' narrative because I don't think it's a puritan afraid of ex thing I think it's a lack of a need to include it
THANK YOU! For mentioning the quote about men’s issues and how being in progressive spaces can lead to alienation. I’m an amab NB and I’ve experienced all of this since I had my gender crisis in college. I’m feeling better now, but I feel people don’t realize what’s going on with men. Since my gender identity revelation I’ve let myself acknowledge my feelings more and I’ve tried to be more open, but most amab people don’t have a way out of the troubles of masculinity in our society like I did. As a Demi-romantic ace I have liked very few romances and it tends to only happen when the romance is a bit lighter and is a part of both characters arcs rather than being the focus of the arcs.
In term of romance in the Western media, finding love is declining as define of love has changed on relationship between the two persons, either homosexual or heterosexual. However, in the Japanese media, there are improving on depiction of the romance for different people from gays, lesbians, straight women and men.
Not gonna lie, when I was a kid I hated romance too 😂😂😂 Well, to be more precise, I kinda felt like I had to hate it, but it made me at the same time want to look and to look away. "Let's talk about love, my loves" 10/10 I love that sentence 😂🤣🤣 Really really good video! I though no doubt you'd be able to give an interesting take on the state of romance in media, but somehow I didn't expect an interesting cultural analysis on things like love, the loneliness problem and so on. It's really really interesting. About the part of characters staying together in a relationship, I suppose it can also be a result of just boredom with the "get together at the finale dynamic"? Stories evolve over time, and if I've learned something by studying literature is that since the 19th century, but specially this last century, literary tendencies shift soooo fast due to being in a more interconnected world. Those stories weren't explored yet, or not that much at least, and slowly more and more people demanded that to be done as well as more creators decided to include those kinds of storylines. As always, I guess, a lot of factors apply, I guess.
One thing I miss about Homestuck is the more nuanced shipping. It's a system I've seen people still apply to other media because we desperately need more shorthand for "I think these characters have great chemistry/potential, I support their relationship," and that "ship" meaning things besides romance...
I would argue that the decline of romance in Disney films actually began in the 2000s, when we stopped seeing characters like Jasmine, Meg, Esmeralda, and Jane, the active and interesting love interests from the Renaissance era. Disney's male protagonists stopped having love interests around the time of The Emperor's New Groove; of Disney's halfway memorable male leads of the 2000s, only Milo Thatch of Atlantis: The Lost Empire has a love interest, while the majority of male-led 2000s Disney films focus on guy-guy friendships. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, necessarily. But I do wonder why we only started to notice the decline of romance in animated films once FEMALE characters stopped falling in love, when no one seemed to bother about it before.
Can we all agree that it doesn’t matter what type of romance people prefer(bad girl/good girl, friends to lovers, forbidden love, etc), just have a romance be written well. That’s all I’m asking
I've been scoffing at this debate because it's a complaint that mostly comes from a certain crowd. A crowd that is aimlessly wanting to see what they want from a place where it won't happen. I have been hit left and right with relationships I love. Straight ones(Exploding Kittens), gay ones(Craig of The Creek), Sapphic ones(Arcane), and even pan ones(Monster High and Primos). Honestly, I feel people have this idealized version of romance. It doesn't matter if there are hundreds of relationships in the media. If it doesn't look like what these people what then, it doesn't exist. There's this indie series from youtuber Toonarific Tariq that is a love story, but I sure as hell know that people who are making these complaints didn't even know that they existed. To quote Chris Rock, "Open your eyes! Stick your head out the window".
Until reading your comment I hadn't thought of Arcane's own romantic subplot, but it was definitely a well-developed one. Originally thinking of; "Sweet Home Alabama," "Love Hard," and "Love Actually" as different romantic films with two that had well-developed "slow burn" romances while the other just felt rushed and badly written just to focus on "romance = love" as the central theme
My teen "falling in love" episodes were in hindsight not very good. It got obsessive and a bit stalkerish. Luckily my wife and I are just extremely stable and in sync, which IMO beats obsessive passion any day. Our entire relationship is like a safe space where we can talk about feelings and even conflicts without it spiraling (well, almost never)
9:50 I had to pause here because Disney pulling an age gap relationship in a film any time after the Bronze era is *wild* (please correct me if I'm wrong.) I don't think I'll ever see Tangled the same way again 💀
I can't help but think that a part of the reason romance has kind of died to many people is because of how representation itself has been getting treated throughout the years. One thing I definitely noticed is that there's a correlation between people who are tired of romance and those who ask for more queer rep, as well as the people who complain about unnecessary sex scenes. I know it sounds a little crazy but go with me for a second. Many people to this day will constantly complain about romantic subplots in fiction. Doesn't matter what show or movie or medium it is, they complain about it, most of it having to do with your typical "he was a boy she was a girl" heterosexual nonsense, that was often just forced in just cuz. People complain about gratuitous sex scenes, but the thing that became very clear is that they consider sex scenes, in general, gratuitous, often saying it doesn't add to the plot. For almost two decades now, people have been fighting for more queer representation and one on many fronts. I feel like all three of these ended up combining in creating, as you put it earlier, the most sexless age of media that we have ever had. Even with queer characters in couples on screen, the ones that conservatives constantly complain about (further showcasing their inability to get past the first three letters in the word sexuality) feel like they can be interchangeable with straight couples and while for many that seems like the goal, in practice, it feels bland. As if in this pursuit to try and prove that queer people are just like straight people, we truly forgot that we're not. And in turn, this has hurt het presenting couples as well because many of them start to feel even blander than they did before. Like they're not flirty and they don't feel like they have Much chemistry. And that's not even accounting for the fact that it feels like a lot of writers don't like writing happy couples. Like yes couples or 100% perfect all the time, but how much a lot of people when writing a couple often try to push this notion that they have problems too, just like everyone, for the sake of realism, just feels a bit cynical. Because at some point you start to notice how they act and you want to just ask "why are you all together?" Like maybe I'm just weird, but I like seeing a couple act like a couple and be into each other and lovey-dovey. And if they're not, I don't need them to be messy and arguing, I'd like to just you know act like a couple. People call Charlie & Vaggie in Hazbin Hotel boring, and before the show came out, I would have given people that criticism, but now, it just feels like they had nothing else they can say about them because they aren't problematic, they aren't toxic, they aren't constantly at each other's throats, and more often than not you see them supporting each other. It's like people's problem with them is that they don't have enough problems and/or aren't lovey dovey enough. Like I genuinely believe a lot of people who complain about romance don't actually care about it in the first place. Like a lot of people love shipping because just the idea of two people together satisfies them, but once they are together, then these people want to find something to scrutinize and imo it's even worse for queer couples because there's already not a lot of prominent ones in the first place, so if they are viewed as not perfect or too perfect, people will say something regardless.
I saw couples being lovey dovey with pretty much no drama before. I found it even worse than the too much drama one. Like other plots in stories it should have a balance between drama and happy. The thing that makes me most bitter about relationships in media and related to the drama is the forced return of status que. Where all progression in the relationship keeps getting reset.
Me and my partner have been together for over two years and I don't think we've ever argued, at least seriously. But we DO run into problems, like everyone else. So, from my perspective, a well-written healthy, happy couple can still be interesting if you put them through conflict (not always relationship conflict, mostly story conflict. Or perhaps inner conflict.) I'm so tired of seeing otherwise healthy couples be put through unnatural relationship conflict just for interest. Let them solve problems together 💔
Similar thoughts on actual couples. A lot of media doesn't ever seem to present like...actually sustainable relationship dynamics? Weirdly it feels analogous to me to how often conflicts over all kinds of issues in films during the rise of the superhero franchises come down to just punching? And when I day this the analogy mainly comes into the more complicated methods of managing collateral damage, the rescuing, organizing, etc that kind of actually define characters like superman get under expressed because they are more complicated. So instead mlre edgy stuff gets focused on for stimulation and conflict but just ends up making a common bit of blandness? Similar dynamics seem to my perspective to be had for so many romances in films where more direct conflicts get chosen over more complicated issues that may require character development and sustained character acting resulting in a kind of bland melange.
To add to this more for general conflict writing advice: it gets unrealistic when all the characters argue for the sake of arguing. I find that some of the best person vs. person conflicts arise not from the characters disliking each other, but from the fact that they're just very different people with different lifestyles. It makes the conflict harder to solve because it's not just two or more people who hate each other just because. The conflict you have to solve is making the characters change as people. It's harder to solve, yes, but it's much more realistic and interesting (at least to me. Not that I dislike small arguments, but that shouldn't be the driving conflict. Have a variety. Not everyone is at each other's throat all the time.)
I'm a weird one to talk about romances. I'm Aro/Ace and i tend to want people to talk about stuff. So many romances are built around a key thing not being discussed so it can come as a twist later. As an author I think this is lazy writing. Humans have a lot of growing to do, I think positive representations of romance and friendship (Which oddly are rarely portrayed as mutually inclusive.) will go a long way toward encouraging that growth.
In Disney films, for most heroines, romance wasn't the main goal, whether it was in classic Disney movies, or during the Disney Renaissance, or even post-Disney Renaissance. For instance, Cinderella wanted to attend the royal ball not because she intended to meet someone, but because she wanted to escape her abusive stepfamily. In The Little Mermaid, Ariel wanted to explore the outside world, because it sparked her curiosity and because she wanted to escape her oppressive father. For each of these heroines, meeting the prince was a bonus. And Rapunzel in Tangled was imprisoned by an evil witch, not a family member. Goethel was pretending to be her mother, in order to harness the magical power of hair, so that she could maintain her youth and beauty. But you were right about some things: Rapunzel and Flynn's relationship did have more agency, than most Disney couples, where Rapunzel gets to make her own choices, and isn't influenced by someone else's. They actually get to know each other, as opposed to falling in love at first sight, or at first dance. She isn't a typical damsel in distress. But the original versions of fairy tales are a lot different than the movie adaptations. Gay relationships in the media aren't a new concept. My mom had mentioned that there used to be a show my grandmother used to watch, called Soap, which was one of the first shows to ever feature gay characters. In fact, my mom had told me that my grandmother had recommended this show to one of her friends, because it was funny. Grandma's friend had replied that she couldn't watch the show, because the church wouldn't allow it. In any case, gay characters, mostly in television, date back to the 70s, 80s, 90s, and even the 00s. But yes, they are becoming more mainstream, now. I think we could use more love stories, in the media. Without romance, movies and shows would be pretty boring to watch.
Small point on the age gap between Rapunzel and Eugene: Eugene was only 23 during the movie, and because he was an orphan who didn't know his actual birthday, he thought he was 22 (a fact added to the tv show because the movie and show writers had different ideas of how old he was and fans noticed the math was wrong). 4/5 years is still a big age gap but not as bad as 8 years. Eugene is canonically 26 because they celebrate his birthday at the very end of the tv series Rapunzel's Tangled Adventure, by which point Rapunzel had been 20 for at least half a year.
Every guy I ever fell for had a seminar personality to my dad - both the few good points and a lot of the bad points that crept up more and more as I forced myself to stay in those relationships. I was drawn by the good qualities but like when my dad was around I stuck around and put up with abuse because I felt that I had no choice and told myself things would get better. They didnt get better until I escaped, and it was a quick fix to getting better, its taken years if hard work and adapting to get to where im at now. Escaping each of these relationships has really helped me to grow and be on the look out for red flags that don't immediately show in my range of vision. I hate it, I want rimance, to be safe and love and allowed to be vulnerable and actually be myself with that special someone. It's miserable to be on gard to protect yourself 24/7. Im still hoping for a deep connection with my solemate but I'm not getting any younger and I'm a different person to who I was back then, I still long for it but I've learnt to recognise that it's not the be all or end all and I'd rather be by myself then trapped with someone else as I had a lifetime of that. But I do have those days where I'm still trapped but in a slightly less opressive cage. I still hope to finally find that special someone and finally let myself breathe and be myself with them and vise versa but I've hit a point where I've mostly accepted that it may not happen, not in this lifetime at least.
Hey great video as always though i do have a mild criticism i think the video somewhat conflates lonely men with incels which are very different things what i mean is that loneliness in men is a common issue but lonely men shouldnt be conflated with abusive men who take their anger out on women but otherwise lovely video gave me a lot to think about ❤ Edit: i would like to state this isnt the most extreme criticism in the world but i do think that it should be pointed out that the conflation does muddle this convo a bit but i will be fair that i could be misinterpreting it cause the rest of the video is excellent
I disagree that men loneliness is largely because of women success in the workplace. The whole workplace is now a mess because laws and culture have not kept up with advances in technology and society.
It's due to a whole bunch of reasons, and sadly, those are two of them. A lot of people in general get disheartened when they're surpassed in places where they think they should excel, and society as a whole tells men it should be them. That doesn't make it correct, but it's the current way of the world
@@Fionapollo I was somewhat referring to how jobs have become pencil pushing. People want to feel productive but a lot of jobs now feel empty. Also people don't seem to acknowledge it but technology and society progress in general did make a lot of work unneeded. The government response to people lacking work however seems to have been to try and offer incentives which creates new issues.
I'm not a man but I experience loneliness and isolation. I don't think it's a genderd problem but rather a circumstantial one. Many people having been struggling both economically and socially ever since the pandemic. Obviously other factors that you've brought up play are part too but i feel that this can get overlooked sometimes.
Hey, Fiona. Great work on another good video. :) If I may, I think sitcoms might have also contributed to the souring of people's opinions about romance. To cite a couple of obvious but still noteworthy examples, husbands like Raymond from Everybody Loves Raymond and Doug from The King of Queens aren't the brightest light bulbs in the hardware store, and wives like Debra and Carrie from those same shows are off-puttingly mean and nasty. It makes you wonder how they stood each other long enough to get married, let alone want to have kids together.
I think in film we're starting to see more stories centred on non romantic love (which is kinda nice as an queer / aro person honestly!) but it coinciding with more and more female leads of colour is also kind of unfortunate since they've also been denied as not just leads but especially romantic leads in fiction. That said, romcoms, shipping in fandom, and TV shows I think have as much romance as ever -- in The Dragon Prince there's three couples who are established and together throughout the majority of the show, queer or otherwise, balancing being plot relevant without having contrived drama, to the point I'd rec it as a romance series for someone who wants that in tv fantasy. Lumity was a cute ship in TOH but I think drew me in less because they felt so removed from the stakes of the plot, sometimes
So I just got some thoughts, warning they might not make any sense. But yeah, there's definitely a shortage of romance or at least specific romance. I feel like nowadays folks are trying to edge the line between "not to fast" and "it feels like they're in love." While doing a lot better with love via the family bond. So, like everything everywhere all at once was super strong on being a good family together, but also had that cute straight relationship. Meanwhile, while some things are more vague. So, in my opinion, there's a bit of will they won't they in Spiderverse for instance. Where Gwen's saying it would never work, but then Miles still has a lot of longing scenes, being concerned for Gwen or immediately jumping in to help her, getting jealous of spider punk, etc, but it's just really vague. And of course, this is in contrast to TV, where sometimes love is super quick, like Arcane or vague like Blue Eyed Samurai where the main character has been scorned by love, but she starts to show interests in a side character to a small degree. Side note I want more badass women like Blue eyed Samurais Mizu she's a hardass who learns to become more vulnerable and feminine, but still has that fighter nature when needed. Even showing in flashbacks of past loves that she can be playful and kind to sometimes submissive in the relationship, but never loses that badass nature, just knows where to put it. It's a really good mix, inspires me with some of my writing I want to get into. Final thought I wanted to say, I hear a lot that modern day hollywood or shows in general HATE romance, and I really don't think that's true. I think right now we're going through a lot of Renaissance in art. We don't really know how we want to represent things, some are held back by corporate interests, and some weigh what audience they really want to speak to too heavily on the mind and it's all kinda caused writing to be a bit everywhere. Like sometimes I watch a show and can see what they're going for, I see a better way it could of been written, but only because the writing presents this or has all the story plots there, then it just doesn't happen. And top of it all you now have AI causing artists to go off and make their own shows/games that have real potential.
I've been single for pretty much my whole life up to now and for the longest time, romance has always been my least favorite genre (I'm a geek for sci-fi, horror, action, etc.), but I will enjoy romantic relationships in entertainment as long as it feels natural to me and is well-executed.
In my opinion romance is so overrated and overdone, in movies/books/music etc. Like, not everything needs a freaking romance. I'm also on the aromantic spectrum so I generally hate seeing that shit. Yet, I love shipping characters XD and LGBT+ romances. But in general I hate how important media makes put romance to be. In my opinion there needs to be a break from all the romance crap. Not all together forever, but they just need to stop putting so much importance and focus on it. So I have no issue with this
I can relate regarding the whole hating romance thing. I also hated it as a kid; thought it was pointless boring drama that made the characters look shallow and took us away from the stuff that actually interested me (like the superhero/Fantasy/scifi stuff). Pretty sure it wasn't because I was jealous of the men or women though :p I have grown slightly more appreciative of it now because I recognize it can sometimes serve as a good tool to develop characters and explore new facets, but I am still a bit iffy on it because of how often it can turn out poorly.
an interesting note on romance manga and anime is how the stories are ending, not just at the moment they hold hand but getting them together and continuing the plot after, if one's lucky even a post manga on them married and family, basically the good ending than the story just dragging out forever
Idk if anyone has said this yet buuuut if you do the math Flynn Ryder (aka Eugene FitzHerbert) doesn’t know he’s actually a year older than he actually is until season 3 of tangled the animated seires where he turns 26, so technically he is only 23 when he meets Rapunzel but only mentally 22. For that time period that is average but that is still a 4 year age gap, and she is still freshly 18, yadda yadda bla bla bla I had a coworker who had the same age gap as that with me, he was 4 years older than me and i made a joke about “you were a senior when i was a freshman” and then we high-fived and went “SO GLAD WE ARE ONLY FRIENDS! Yay!”
As for being wary of anime and their uncomfortable romantic content. I experienced this in Weathering with You. I thought it was a really cute romance but was incredibly frustrated that they got to the end and revealed the 17/18 year old heroine is actually a 14/15 middle school student. Why would you trick your audience into investing in a romance involving an underage girl?
Idk if i hace much thpughts on the video, it was well done and said what it need to, what i will say is that, for me i hated romance, especially unnecessary romance until 16-17, when i met and fell in love with my first girlfriend. That as a whole changed my perspective on it and now i kind of melt with a well written romantic stoeyline, especially queer ones. I think i hated it because it was too attached in my head to sex (and im ace so that really didnt mesh for me) and was superficial, and i frankly didnt understand romance, in a simialer way, while before i always thought while having a partner would be nice it would never be a priority, to now where, i cant imagine a future where i don't have someone in my life. So yeah, idk maybe that is generally why as people age they tend to not dind romance gross and enjoy it more but maybe im extrapolating on my personal experience to much.
Raise your hand up if you think Frozen 3 (or 4) is going to be about Elsa kissing Kristoff without his consent and Anna finds out and of course, she has to slap him even worse (like, in issue 134 of the Archie series) than she did to Prince Hans (which of course, because he is or was a rich, white prince, they won’t give a redemption arc unless it turns out to be half-assed like in Kung Fu Panda 4 just to make the Chameleon look worse than the villains in all three of its predecessors combined despite the fact that Tai Lung and Kai, while you can totally understand why he became that way, turned out to be an entitled pricks, and Lord Shen was a genocidal egomaniac) because instead of learning more about what her sister did to her husband (which was force herself on him), she decided (as someone who would think she’s a “strong independent woman”) to not let him explain (which she would think is her soon-to-be ex-husband justifying his actions) and force him to think he was deliberately cheating on her with his sister-in-law so that they would divorce and she can get back together with either Hans or some different man who apparently “treats her better than he ever could” and there might even be a scene where Anna dates someone behind Kristoff’s back before their divorce (likely not Hans) and Elsa acts like a yandere every time Kristoff talks with other women (his ex-wife being the least likely option) but we’re not supposed to think that Anna is the one that would cheat on him or that Kristoff secretly loves Elsa because according to the new CEO Dana Walden, women can do no wrong… Yeah, I think this is part of what will soon come to be the closest thing to romance in the second quarter-century of 21st century cinema (except for in the Mario movie sequel where to stand out from other romantic portrayals in other Hollywood movies by actually being genuine, Peach thinks about whichever man to date, most likely Mario since despite her amazing looks, she might only have romantic feelings for one man, and then their chemistry becomes more and more organic like in the first movie whereas when Mario interacts with other women, unlike Anna to Kristoff or Hans if they kept their relationship even after the original, Peach is actually aware that Mario isn’t cheating on her with Daisy or anyone else, and yet, of course Disney shills will defend Disney’s modern works but never Illumination’s unless it’s I dunno, Despicable Me 4?)
I used to be so obsessed with romance until it just started grossing me out and only a few great relationships actually make me go "awww" when they kiss or stuff
I remember having this kind of conversation with my parents because- well- I’m not romance whatsoever. I don’t mind romance. It’s just I’m tired of bad romance stories. But I guess it’s also because a lot of romance and certain types of scenes have just been my face and a lot of other peoples faces for a good while… and I just don’t want that😭😭😭 it’s kind of interesting
While I don't care for romance overall, I do find myself quite taken by GL romance Webcomics and whatnot, and I cannot explain it. It is nice that it is becoming more common. Hopefully executives will bugger off and stop interfering with LGBTQ+ theme and romance in telle
I wanna see more MLM romances in the fantasy/horror genre - I've seen WLW romance as a more common theme for any genre with lgbtq+ couples , where's my men at 😥. Most the fiction I see with them as a main romance, it's just to sexualized -
no hate but wdym sexualisation? The way I see it, this happen to women as well. Like some people will say they are sexualités for having sex? Idk, anyway you should watch east/ south Asian shows they have a lot of mlm couples in more serious stories
@@user-uz4wi2jk8z I'm completely fine with characters having sex , but it comes to when a whole genre is just characters doing spicey stuff , and that is the bl genre, not sure about actual shows/movies, but when it comes down to them in comic form, like 90% of it is just sex , even when the plot is good, the characters fuck wayyy to much, and alot of times its forced stuff (from the ones I use to read) . ofc its very true woman go through the same stuff , but straight romance is found in almost every show/movie/book, and there is alot of choices and when it comes to LGBTQ+ ships as a whole, ships with two woman is the most common.
@@CultivationOfMayhem. Then don’t read them? How are you punishing yourself with 90% or things you don’t like? Internet is a wonderful place search those 10% you think are fine, crazy how you can just scroll and ignore but you choose to acknowledge them, it feels like I can’t relate to you bc due to my picky nature for any genre ever, I always find the things that suits exactly the type of things I like, whether it’s in action, romance, portrayal of female characters, or gay relationships etc. I swear there are amazing mom stories then, tbh what I find funny is that one of my fav mom book has a lot of sex due to the whole point of the character’s relationships (basically hook up to lovers) but I still ended up connecting deeply with the characteres and liked the book for the characters and their journey. Foreign shows also helps, what you didn’t find in Western shows can be found in Asia for example
@@user-uz4wi2jk8z I don't read them , not anymore , it's just all I find when I do decide I wanna try and find something . And I'm asexual , so finding a character I can relate to (relationship wise) is difficult 😅(which is why I'm writing my own stories lol). There is one book series I really love, not sure if its Asian or Chinese , but its just confusing asf to me cuz I have a hard time reading already and all the words are confusing even tho its written in English . 🥲
As a more-than-likely ace person, I'm pretty disinterested in romance, especially cliched, hetero romance. Because of all the cliche romance, I have a hard time seeing most straight romance in media as anything other than a cheap trick for a "happy ending". Sprinkle on a couple outdated and sexist sentiments, and you're done. I think I'm more accepting of queer romances on principal, as they don't usually have kinda sexist tropes, and they are usually actually trying with the romance. ...I think I just have major issues with romance in general, in real life and in fiction. Especially straight romance, and it's ludicrously unhealthy pioneering as "everyone's goal in life".
The thing that frustrates me about incels and boys who delve into the manosphere is that...yeah they need support too, and yeah our society isn't set up to give it to them (for the same reasons women are oppressed, ironically), but it's not like there aren't people who are _trying_ to help them. Sometimes you just get fed up and say "It's not my job to fix your problems for you," sure, but there are people trying to be kind to them and give them advice. It's just that most of the time they don't want to listen, so you get very little result for a ton of effort. It sucks.
Yep, therapy/self-help only works when the subject wants assistance. If they want to wallow in their own filth, that is their prerogative; and their prerogative alone.
It could also be a self-perpetuating cycle; people like Jordan Petersen acts like they're an expert but create an insular "cult" that think they know what they're talking about only to create a toxic mindset. Because people become centered on listening to those who are like-minded this leads to creating fractures within society; Involuntary Celibates believe they're "entitled" to have a girlfriend, Aro/Ace individuals are lumped in with incels because they have no desire for a relationship and are seen as "broken," Hatemongers like Matt Walsh or Jordan Petersen focus anger onto marginalized people and further push a social separation because they believe their own mindset is the "correct one," and everyone else who's either caught in the middle or forced to "pick a side"
only if that advice is good which it isn't always easy to say help is there but if the response of that help is "you need to acknowledge [buzzword here]" gaslighting it won't change that person's mind
thing is: many people think that there is "ONE correct way to deal and process emotions". and if a man doesn't do it "correctly" like not talking about his feelings for example, they often belittle him for "doing it wrong". the possibility that the man tries to deal with his emotions in a different manner than talking about them, never seems to be considered. and maybe i'm just reading too much into stuff, but people seem to assume that if you don't talk about your feelings that you ALWAYS bottle them up. what also irks me is that whenever people say "men would rather do XY than go to therapy", there is always a slight arrogance in their tone. as if men only don't go to therapy, because "they're just too StUpId". the truth is that therapy just doesn't work for some men. Or that many therapists don't know how to actually help men.
@Legomicroman I honestly don't get where the "men don't talk about their feelings" come from. Most guys literally don't ever shut up about their feelings and beliefs. I do agree most guys need to do things other than talk. Now convincing my buddies to be productive is hard.
I don't think romance is dying. What I believe is happening is that the theme of romance is becoming more undefined and broad. Until I would say the 1990s, most people defined true love as dreaming about marriage and kids. That's why so many of the Disney films in the 90s did so well in that regard. Now, a lot of people either view the idea of romance different from it's once linear form, or people just don't like the idea of romance in general because it's too hard to stay in a relationship, or for many, it's very hard to find someone to fall in love with who truly accepts and loves you for who you are. For me as someone who grew up in the 90s. I believe now as someone who is single and pushing thirty that many of those classic Disney films put pressure onto a whole generation of kids to "find their happily ever after." And when it doesn't happen, or life gets in the way, more and more people become cynical of romance and Disney's old themes of them, I know I have. I believe most people want a prince charming to be there white knight in shining armor, but the minuscule chance of someone finding a person like that is so incredibly rare that films like The Little Mermaid and Aladdin just comes off as wishful thinking and nothing more. You will probably have a better chance of winning the lottery at this point than trying to find someone personality wise like Eric or Aladdin, or any of the Disney guys that come off as handsome and genuinely good people. Oh, and writing romance WELL would also help. If comedy is dead, I would say romance is tied with horror films for being terribly written. If you want that stuff, you watch anime for it now, not western media (me in a nutshell...)
Actualy, in the movie Eugene was 24, but he tought he was 23. In the series, during season 3, who happened two years after the movie, he discovered he was one year older after meeting his father
I can remember some movies and anime I like that has romance. Arashi no Yoru ni is a great queer movie that is also a anti racism movie. Ronantic Killer is a show that is more into the platonic love than romantic. I love especially the Cutie Honey Flash that their couple is honestly better than Sailor Moons Usagi and Mamorus relationship.
I still love fairy tale romance, unrealistic as it may be. But the good thing about an evolution on how people write romance is that you’re able to *experiment and figure out what works for your writing*. I’m trying to stray away from it in most of the projects I’m working on, because as an aroace person, I want to focus more on platonic friendships. But I still like the idea of romance and like to indulge on occasion. When I do write romance, my goal is to try and write a convincing relationship. If the chemistry isn’t good, chances are the romance won’t be either.
The bank account thing has a lot of asterisks, the spending power controlling the box office and influence in general is correct for sure but there were a lot of efforts for women having bank accounts solely to themselves even 50 years before then. There's a lot of activism that tends to get erased in that line. Just like with gay marriage different States had solo women ownership in the country like California back in the 1800's
Art is human expression, It can reflect the world but it often reflects the creators mind themselves. Romance dying could be an indicator that many people don't really care about romance. And that's fine. Romance shouldn't be seen as a big deal. Let romance be a neutral part in everyday life.
As an aroace person myself, writing romance is a very sore topic to me because I have no idea how real romance works OR what kind of fictional romances people like or dislike. If you write a cutesy happy Disney fairy tale-style romance like you mentioned in the video, people will complain about it being bland and generic like they do with classic Disney films (or for a more recent example, Shining Armor and Princess Cadance in MLP: FIM). But if you write a soap opera-style romance where the relationship starts out kind of rocky, but they get to know each other better over time? People complain about it being toxic and unhealthy, like with Retsuko and Haida, or Blitzo and Stolas. Maybe I won't write romance at all, since people often praise films like Finding Nemo or Moana for not having romance in them. Wait, now they're complaining about how Disney is too scared to write romance nowadays for cutting the Starboy romance out of Wish, so if I don't write romance I guess that makes me a coward. Maybe I'll see which characters the fandom ships, because they know more about romance than I do, so they MUST be right! Wait, now they've changed their minds and are saying that the characters should just be friends, like the Hazbin Hotel fandom did with HuskerDust. It's really confusing and frustrating when there's a fictional romance I like that other people dislike. For instance, that one commenter who talked about Elemental vs Tangled. I don't see anything wrong with Ember and Wade's relationship, they worked perfectly fine for me. Is there something wrong with me as an aromantic person for liking "bad" fictional romances and not understanding what makes a romance good or bad? This is why I'm so ashamed of being aro. EDIT: The two people who chose to bitch about Retshaida are just proving my point more instead of answering my question.
OKAY BUT!!! I'm still so bitter about Retsuko and Haida bc they spent like 4 seasons telling me that Retsuko sees nothing in Haida that she likes (other than potentially money that one episode) and then suddenly she's married to him??? I refuse to believe!! That romance was unbelievable fr 😭 She deserved better!!
From someone who is more Ace than Aro, I think people can be enticed or turned off by how the dynamics of the couple characters are portrayed as. Whether it be by appearance or personality type. I feel like the most effective way in terms of consuming/creating romance is to have them being noticed as individuals rather than ALWAYS linked together cause it has a better view of what the dynamic is like for the other character (Plus it's fricking annoying seeing one character being referred to as just "this character's love interest"). It can also, whether fans see "couples" as toxic, unhealthy, or should just stay friends is only perspective, and fandoms don't really define what a good romance is even if they think they do. In regards to you mentioning Wish, I cared less that we could have gotten a Starboy romance, but disappointed that we could have gotten a VILLIAN DUO with a cat. I don't even care if they loved each other or not, but just loved the prospects of being villainous as a team! Sorry if this reply is too long, it just caught my attention. 😅
Im aroace but i enjoy watching good and well written romances (but keep freaky stuff AWAY since im VERY freaky repulsed). Though its hit or miss, either im obsessed or im gagging.
@@CaptainSoftboy501i hated that romance cause haida was straight up creepy. Season one was fine since he hadnt asked her out at that point and it was not really that creepy, that was until he kept trying to win her over AFTER SHE SAID NO. He was super possessive over someone who had clearly stated that she had NO interest in him and was in a relationship. And yet he got rewarded for that?! I honestly think it couldve worked if done right but BOY did they fumble.
I really didn't like romance as a kid. I feel like maybe it's not good to push romantic plots on children before they hit puberty. They should have more time to be kids and not think about dating. (I was homeschooled and it shocks me when I see parents talking about their preteens having boyfriends/girlfriends. In my homeschooled circles, I didn't start seeing crushes and such until the kids were about 16 or so.) I suspect that some of the lack of romance in modern films is because the people who didn't like romance as kids grew up. I will also say that I think that the shipping thing has ruined friendships in media. Now it seems like very few characters can love and care for each other without the whole internet deciding they're romantically in love. (This used to just be a problem with M/F relationships, but now it's EVERYTHING.)
Nah, they would absolutely do that to M/M and F/F relationships while demonizing the F/M ones, making us feel bad to "force" a male and female together, while they're being hypocritical about it, on social medias.
What’s happening with Ezra and Sabine from the Star Wars franchise brought me here. They had the potential (and probably still does) have the potential to be among the best love stories in the series since Han and Leia. There is just too much foundation, set up and even implications for it not happen. Question is. Is it still secretly in the cards or it is over? Honestly, I hope it turns out to be a twist.
That's how I feel about SpongeBob and Sandy from SpongeBob SquarePants. They have so much potentials with their very strong chemistry, interactions and even implications of some sort of romantic tension between the two (Well, in SpongeBob's side), that I can't help but think that they should get together at at some point. I am still feeling grated that the writers try so hard to make it clear they wouldn't get them together (At least in the current show proper). And those annoying social media shippers (Or even that Twitter post, which was a misunderstanding to begin with) certainly doesn't help. PS: Despite the popular misconception, SpongeBob is NOT literally ace.
@@missplayer30 Spongebob and Sandy aren't even the same species. Wait.... Mr. Krabs had.... Pearl (that was a whale)? How does that work? Adopted? God, my head hurts.
@@coletrain583 Apparently, in this universe, it's possible for interspecies couples to not only be a thing but also to have children with each other (Trust me, Patrick's maternal grandma is a squid, which his sister definitely take after). Even if you use the argument they're "not the same species" you obviously forgot Mr Krabs and Ms Puff.
I think romance is dying because in our current world of values and progress, romance isn't necessary anymore. First, except for adoption, there are stuff like fertilizations and sperm banks. the idea of being in a relationship with someone to make a baby has faded and kids and babies could be given in many other ways. Secondly, we are more aware that there are more people with different sexualities that are not necessarily egg x sperm with some not including any egg or sperm (aroace). Thirdly, sex and emotions in general are a tricky thing to talk about since not everyone is comfortable about it. So it's much safer to keep friendship and not go for romance. Fourthly, the idea of getting your "soulmate" and starting a family being the ultimate goal is now very outdated. An ultimate goal is something very personal. From climbing the highest mountain to making a difference in the world, not everyone (at least today) has the same desire. Lastly, it could be for pushing for better priority orders as if you have someone you love more than someone else, it could make that someone else feel neglected, alone among many other things. It could also lead to favoritism problems and moral dilemma. But it is far more easier and simpler if you treat others in an equal way, meaning you keep them all at the same distance no matter how and what you feel about them.
You did at least say some points that you would've expected. Part of why it declined is due to changing standards in society, people taking fictional media at face value and over-comparing it to real life standard. As well as you can't really pick and choose who your audience will be and unfortunately it would stain it a bit with someone who's definitely mentally disturbed and got famous for the wrong reasons.
I haven't rly had the time or energy to do any alongside irl stuff, regular vids & commissions. They still require research & gathering material between every normal video which can become draining after a while. I'll try to pick them up again at some point but i just needed a break
It's probably personal preference, but I generally dislike romance in media, especially when it feels forced or unnecessary. Like I read a few queer romance novels when I started questioning my sexuality, but after a while I just kinda stopped, and that stuff doesn't interest me anymore and now I prefer things without romance. That isn't to say that I dislike all romance-- if one is particularly well-written and makes me care about the characters and their relationship, I can actually enjoy it. (example: I really loved FitzSimmons from Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.) Just felt like sharing my opinion.
I feel you. I almost exclusively grew up with straight romance as well as shipping exclusively straight couples, then I had my yaoi/yuri fangirl phase who loves to get two guys together while pushing off the female, but I eventually got bored of gay couples and I became so numb about romance or anything adult with the couple that I don't care for it anymore (The rushed and politicized push for lgbt romance certainly doesn't help). But I still would love to see more actual romance outside of fans shippings (Well crushes and implication of a possible romantic tension is enough for me), it's lacking today.
The best relationship in western media are gay and the best action manga/anime are written by women (FMA, Frieren, Demon Slayer, Delicious in Dungeon).
I'm sorry but film was never limited or even enjoyed mostly by the "wealthy". From the short nickelodeons onwards to proper movie theaters in the 30s, (leaving aside the absolute poor and homeless), movies where always accessible to the general public with a normal income.
I think lgbt romance is sooooooo cute and in animation movies if the story is good and Characters be well written so is porfect and luz and amity works because they was no afraid so more LGBTQ couples ❤❤❤❤🏳️🌈🏳️🌈❇❇👍👍👍🗣😍😊✊✊✊👩❤️👩👩❤️💋👩👩❤️💋👩👭
To me this is simply a symptom of a larger problem. People are absolute dogshit at telling a story. The Art of Storytelling is dying and it's thanks to post 90s and oughts deconstructionism. Postmodernism is defined as 'the death of art' and it's where we are today. The 90s in particular at least for the US is where you start to see the desire for 'gritty realism' in entertainment which gave way to the evolution of the 00's Edgelord nonsense. This effectively what killed the 'happy ending' of the 70s and 80s. People demanding more 'realism' in their entertainment instead of seeing it as an idea to strive toward even if it couldn't be achieved is what led to the decline we see today. It's why I'm ultimately disgusted by the idea of 'representation'. Because it started with the desire to see messy unhappy lives reflected in entertainment. I have nothing against experimentation and exploration of themes and ideas but the entire cultural shift of the 90s just created a downward depression spiral. Sure the Happy Ending is unrealistic but they have their place too. "So we can believe the bigger lies." -Death when discussing the importance of the Hogfather to his granddaughter Susan. Ultimately this desire to see 'realism' reflected in entertainment lead to the need to deconstruct Narration and now people just don't understand how to tell Story anymore. Romance can be a positive thing. Art can and does reflect life so the idea that romance can make people happy is true. That's why people seek it so much and especially today when happiness is hunted and strangled by society at large, people seek it out wherever they can. Even if that means twisting and forcing it into existence where inappropriate. Hence shipping wars and the 'OH THEY FACKIN' trope. I would also like to point out that given Japan's conservative nature and how they repress themselves in public, the bizarre downright uncanny and sometimes mindbogglingly strange sights you see in anime is effectively their decompression for maintain a strict appropriate decorum in public. So can't agree with you since I understand WHY it's so weird. It their way of wiling out behind closed doors where appropriate.
It is much more satisfying watching a couple stay together rather than getting together.
I feel the opposite, possibly because I'm lithromantic (aromantic spectrum). Once the characters have reached "happily ever after," I'm out.
@@NoiseDayBummer all that media of never seeing the real relationship made me burned out of romance
@@NoiseDay Same, as an aegoromantic (also aromantic spectrum) I find the crush/infatuation much more interesting than the actual relationship. I can still appreciate seeing characters in relationships, but I like seeing people crush on other people more.
I see it very rarely and generally find the actual relationship factors being sustained more interesting than the rest. Mainly since I thinknthe models even for those initial sections don't really fit the later sections or actually make sense as a model? I dunno I find the general representation of romance such a strange and flawed thing.
@@NoiseDayI'm demisexual, witch makes me the opposite of you on this regard, I prefer to see a couple working when they are a couple than the old "will they or will they not" rutine.
that’s personally why I think that shipping is so common these days. Since there’s such a sudden shortage of romance.
Honestly yeah, ppl have always gone to shipping if they feel something is lacking but it feels like it’s happening SO much more now
@@Fionapollo yeah! It feels like there’s more shippers than ever right now.
@@EarthboundBrainrot Tbh that’s one of shipping doubled edged graces, cause fans can have their own opinion who has chemistry. Though god have mercy on you if you are in the wrong shipping circle. 😅
@@deannawoolfolk4562 true, if you get in a toxic shipping circle, you’re screwed! :0
@@EarthboundBrainrot I remember the Klance and Sheith war of '16, and I didn't even watch Voltron. It scared the shit out of me! T^T
From what I've learned, romance can work well if written properly and paced well.
In other news, water is wet.
@@matt0044 Yeah, but I do agree that romance is dying.
That can applied to every aspect of writing.
Character arc can work well if written properly and paced well.
Rising action with climax can work if written properly and paced well.
Endings can work if written properly and paced well.
No hating, but that advice is incredibly vague and isn't unique romance in general. It's like telling an artist to practice drawing without giving a more specific concrete advise to improve on drawing something like a head.
Part of why lumity is my favorite ever ship (including non-canon ones) is because they actually give the relationship time to breath. All too often in media the relationship starts at the end as part of the happy ending, serving as the conclusion to the will they/won't they right up next to the climax, but that also means that we don't get much time at all for the characters to just be a thing, loving each other and weathering their relationship struggles unitedly and allowing the relationship timw to develop and help the characters grow.
Also, thank you so much for talking about how patriarchy negatively affects both men and women, not enough people do that and I rarely see someone being this understanding about it, at least not on the Internet.
I agree that the main problem with romance in media is the perpetuation of that ideal of an armored knight meeting a fair damsel and living happily ever after.
My favorite romance stories (which are not many) are about deeply flawed and troubled people who are able to be a little less flawed and troubled because of the support the loved one gives them. That's why I love Moonrise Kingdom despite… well… the age…
It kind of seems like the spectra is basically happily ever after, using ineffective coping mechanisms and trauma for drama over a relationship that may or may not last and the end the "unicorn" level rare type that is actually sustaining relationships that aren't as much for drama but more for just like character growth?
Which I kind of suspect because wriring constructive collaboration through conflict with the relationship in a healthier place is actually harder. Since the aspects that tie the characters tend to start crossing into a lot more dynamics and actually make the characters matter a bit more in how they interact and solve the problem(and you can't use issues with the relationship as the sole conflict).
What I also found interesting about Tangled, which also makes the romance comfortable is that Flynn didn't try to "save her" when they met.
It's more that he ended up influencing her on their journey, making her more confident. But that's only because Rapunzel first decided to leave and go on that journey.
Rapunzel has the agency here.
Don’t see why it would’ve been a problem for Flynn to save her if he had. I mean, Rapunzel was being manipulated and isolated by an abusive mother-Flynn saving her from that and that kickstarting a romance wouldn’t have been unrealistic or problematic. I don’t see why everyone pretends that trope is evil nowadays.
Anyway, I do partially agree. Flynn and Rapunzel’s romance feels more relatable because it isn’t some love at first sight or savior story-they fall in love as they get to know each other.
@@Doomzdeh Its less "man saving woman is bad" and more "making women exclusively helpless damsels who cant fend for themselves against men or in general". Not to be confused with one or two being helpless but the rest are still active and have agency, for example.
What made romance be "looked down upon" is how poorly cliched it has been in certain shows. The "Will they won't they", "love triangles", romanticizing unhealthy/parasocial relationships, list goes on. While some of these tropes can be done right, I just personally wanna avoid them for now. What I want to see more is encouraging positive relationship build-up. One great movie that was able to explore positive healthy relationships was Before Sunrise, Before Sunset & Before Midnight. Those movies tear away all the tropes to a more realistic approach to building chemistry. Established relationships should also be explored more in future stories as it'll allow communication lessons for both partners.
Not to mention that it became a tiring trope in animated films like Hotel Transylvania, Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs, Strange Magic, The Emoji Movie, and even Ice Age: Collision Course, where Sid somehow gets a girlfriend, even though he’s too stupid to deserve one.
oh, will they won't they, my least favorite trope ¿what would we do without you?
have tasteful romance of course.
Something I find interesting is how, in books 'romantasy' (romance and fantasy) is very popular rn. I'd be curious to know why romance in books is popular now where in film it seems to be significantly less present
That might actually be in part to fanfiction & booktok? That might be something to look into actually
I think you can note it primarily similar to tv shows as a factor of underlying economics. You must say actors to return to movies and shows and with the expansion of media it is much harder to have the same people come back unless they actually like the series(closest example in my head actually being Scott Pilgrim since the actors actually liked working with the director). So they are less incenticized to actually try relationships for long or extend them out as those characters actors may not stick around. I suspect this is why when romance is stable it's often side characters whose actors do stick around more.
Books don't have this issue at all and can actually explore the full width as the author is the biggest controller of who is around and what characters do.
Way more women, who tend to like romance more, read paper and digital books ofter than men do.
Money, I've noticed that in mainstream Hollywood they've really been pushing action movies ever since superhero movies got popular you can get a wider audience with them it's why Twilight was the last big romance movie. Meanwhile in reading spaces romance has exploded most apps about reading be it a comic app or regular book app are full of romance. We're also seeing mini TV show apps pop up and those are also mostly romance and of course streaming is also full of romance it's only dead in theaters and on cable TV and those are dying out.
tv shows and movies are wayyyy more gatekept than books and needs to be greenlit, anyone can write a book but you need toooons of money and a crew for tv shows/movies. and the folks withholding the funds HATE risks
To be honest, I'd rather have romance done more rarely but done well more often than a bunch of romances shoehorned into stories where they don't add anything.
I really didn't like how Frozen handled the fast marriage thing. Kristof thinks it's absurd but the second his parents see him with Anna they try to get them married. And then Anna thinks it's silly but still wants to get with Hans. Also why is Kristof so anti quick marriage if his entire community is so pro shotgun marriage?
I hate the Rock Trolls in Frozen.
I seen deleted scene of Frozen 2, they were planning to break up Anna and Kristof from what I remember
Thanks for coming on to the pod again! On a minor note of an older woman and younger man couple, that's weirdly controversial among executives who often try to stomp it out as opposed to an older man and younger woman even today. I remember in Marvel comics Danny Rand and Misty Knight were a very rare couple for not only being one of the earliest interracial couples in comics but also because Misty was older than Danny.
princess caroline and judah from bojack horseman comes to mind
In the sphere of media I consume, (usually anime and comics) romance was my gateway for me when I was younger but as I got older I totally am leaning more into more dark or thriller centric things because the plot and drama is more elevated to me. Not that I still don't love romance, I totally do, but I like to take it in specific doses and/or use it as comfort.
My problem with Brave is it felt like they had to make the love interests awful to justify her not being interested. Because it would just be too weird for the suitors to be normal and Merida not fall for them.
Her canon options were so bad that fans had to resort shipping her with someone outside her own movie (Trust me, I've been there).
@@missplayer30lol, the big 4? Been there too
@@josefagomezschmeisser8356 Fun fact, I exclude Rapunzel and only see three of the Big Four as the main team. For me, the team only consist of the main guy, his chaotic yet charming best friend and his strong hotheaded female friend who is also his love interest.
It’s not that “Romance is Dead” it’s that a lot of people are pointing out how problematic and tired some Romance tropes are (love triangle’s, miscommunications, will-they-won’t-they, gross power dynamics) and actually want something that is believable
That and well. AroAce people exists,,
i personally would like to see a story that defies the "i can fix him~"-trope WITHOUT vilifying the brooding male love-interest.
The timing of this in the same month as NeverKnowBest's video on romance in video games, I guess this month is just bringing this feeling out of people
I may be biased as an acespec person, but I think the best romantic relationships also feel like best friends.
It's more interesting (at least, to me) when a couple just happens to be a couple. When they prioritize friendship over romance or sex. Romance is still there, obviously, but it's not the only thing going for them.
Also related:
There has always been a certain look or expectation when it comes to romance, like there's only one or two ways to experience it. Meanwhile best friends, siblings, parent and child, you name it, all have wider representation in stories now. Romance is also the most advertised, marketable relationships, comparatively to everything else (I mean, compare Valentine's Day to Father's/Mother's Day. Is there even a friend or sibling day? Maybe, who knows.) Sure, there's stuff like bff charms, parent letters/flowers, etc., but romance has multiple selling points: "crush on someone, date them, marry them, the end". It's simplified down to an expectation, an industry to follow. It takes so much many to even be allowed to exist with another person. That also has to do with the loneliness epidemic and romance decline: money. It's a lot easier to have a friend than it is to have a partner, financially. Also why online friends are on the rise.
Of the few movies I've seen recently "Love Hard" is a good example of the "friends to lovers" trope since the romantic feelings are started with e-commnication before meeting and then trying to both pretend to date (for his family) and he's helping her try and impress the guy she thought he was. The friendship they start with makes their later romantic connection easier to understand, but most films tend to follow the weird rushed feeling that makes it hard to take seriously
Agreed. I'd rather have a friendship that naturally grows into a romance between two people who know & respect each other than yet another "they fight & insult each other constantly but are secretly in love" pairing.
the only truly worthwhile romance trope is "two idiots in love and neither know". i will die on this hill. we need more romance in media, but EXCLUSIVELY of this type.
have you watched a show named "the adventures of merlin", by chance?
@@RDrawzDragonz no, why?
I feel like "idiots in love and neither know" almost encapsulates what made Catradora an interesting ship, much like Seamista; both Catra and Adora were so focused on trying to "reconnect" with the other but didn't know how they were hurting each other until the final moments. Seahawk and Mermista being a one-sided relationship and both being too inept to adequately express how they felt until the last episode. It would definitely be entertaining to see this trope used, but to compliment this I've written a few romance stories using the "girlfriend experience/fake dating" trope and both being (largely) too inept to admit their true feelings
Bringing up the fact of people in current relationship and exploring more of that aspect is such a big thing that so much media misses out on. It would be cool to see how a couple deals with the challenges a relationship faces in life
I feel like it's just a pendulum effect. For years romance was important to a lot of narratives and now people just sit and complain about it all the time. Like from the PoV of a webtoon romance creator hardly a day goes by in webtoon spaces where people don't make a thread or chat about how much they hate that romances are king there, even though most comic companies cater to boys or a neuter all ages audience.
Disney has practically avoided a good romance for years and people still act like that's all they ever did even though it never was. People are trying to overcompensate and push back and companies caught on and started to cater to them and now we're in a drought. Or also those people that grew up thinking everything was romance went on to be creators who avoided it.
Romance books are the last bastion but that's possibly because the barrier for entry is pretty low when you can self publish on kindle.
Great video, as always! I've been watching Cardcaptor Sakura lately, and it's fascinating how far romance tropes have come since the late 90s. A lot of CCS is simple, fairly-tale romance that leans heavily into bi rep. Both Sakura and Xiaolang have a crush on an older guy, and they both recognise that it's most likely unobtainable due to the age gap, yet both also accept that "(They) can't help falling in love"). Given the episodic nature of the show, it doesn't do much to press the romantic connections, but it does portray it with a good deal of emotional honesty that tempers some of the more squick aspects.
An under-rated depiction of queer romance is in Marvel's Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur. Lunella herself is likely straight, and she does have a crush on Kid Creed, but she also admits that she isn't ready for a full romantic relationship yet. Queer romance is part of the background, but it doesn't feel tokenised like most of the mainstream marvel films, because it shows that queer people are part of life. They will get centre stage on occasion, making them feel like a natural part of the world. For me, it's a great contrast to something like Sakura, because it shows how far we've come in terms of depicting "Realistic" relationships.
What Frozen did to "Disney style romances", despite still requiring a romantic pairing at the end, was what Blazing Saddles did to westerns. It called out what was already fast becoming popular perception, deconstructing the "Love at first sight tropes" to the point where it's ridiculous to think of it being played straight nowadays.
worked by being fake, it understood it wasn't real but was interesting the characters coping with it showing character growth than just "rep"
real "representation" is characterizatio which is why it worked so well
I do enjoy romance to some extent. Romance works well to me with comedy. Not in a Rom-com sense but more in stuff like Anime. But I prefer lesbian romance because I can relate to that more. I do not enjoy something that's too cheesy but more light hearted. I can't define "cheesy" though. It's more of a vibe thing.
yuri my beloved
I'm guessing by "cheesy" you mean performative- when the romantic elements are blown out of proportion in a way that takes you out of the story.
I love romcom anime because a lot of them are more situational or character comedy and unrequited pining. Live action romcoms seem to be more about sexual tension or pairing two toxic people. Or generally just not being actually funny. I'll admit I don't watch live action romance because it makes me cringe, but animated romance is all that gets me out of bed in the morning.
Please leave your lesbian recs because I am seriously BL pilled right now
I do think romance is valuable in helping make comforting media when it is written realistically but also isn't take too seriously to the point it feels like a stern drama.
For instance, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is one of my favourite films for this exact reason. It shows a set of characters who each have their differences and personal flaws but also demonstrate their good qualities to showcase a sweet yet geanuine romantic relationship. Despite having elements of sci-fi, it remains a fun yet grounded film.
HOLY SHIT IS THAT GODOT?!!?!?!?
AFAIK, romance is in decline most likely due to the aversion to "love interests" in blockbusters in the pre-Frozen era. A lot of critics, artists, writers etc. has criticized the inclusion of "love interests" in most blockbusters as a cheap, cynical ploy to gain more audience.
Perhaps the current Disney movies lacking any romance is a reaction to their criticism.
Not relevant to Disney, but it makes me think that blockbuster producers realize they can't keep treating women the way they used to, but also they have no idea how to write a compelling female character. Their best guess is "don't need no man."
Personally I still have the "weird aversion to romance" when it comes to media, but I think that's just because I'm gay and there's basically no good m/m relationships in media, and I just physically can not make myself care about the (usually straight) relationship storylines that are seemingly forced into every show or movie.
SAME!! I used to feel really bad for only watching or reading bl/gl stories but straight relationships between characters who feel better as friends are SO COMMON nowadays. They'd rather force a romance between two straight friends than write anything queer, and it's honestly kind of sad.
@@dr33murrluvsanime See, for me, I can't even get invested in f/f relationships, I just feel a total disconnect from all of it
Yeah I have noticed that queer relationships in media tend to be lesbian relationships rather than gay ones. I think it's just due to how we view men as more sexual inherently. And while as a lesbian I eat that shit up where it's found, I definitely can see the problem.
I'm Aroace and while I don't mind romance in media, I don't see it as a big deal that it doesn't get enough focus as it used to.
@@Lemoncakelover678 true I don't get the panic over the 'everybody's hot no body is horny' narrative because I don't think it's a puritan afraid of ex thing I think it's a lack of a need to include it
I remember growing up and hearing Disney critics complain about how so many Disney princesses had a love interest. Now we're in a love drought.
THANK YOU! For mentioning the quote about men’s issues and how being in progressive spaces can lead to alienation. I’m an amab NB and I’ve experienced all of this since I had my gender crisis in college. I’m feeling better now, but I feel people don’t realize what’s going on with men. Since my gender identity revelation I’ve let myself acknowledge my feelings more and I’ve tried to be more open, but most amab people don’t have a way out of the troubles of masculinity in our society like I did.
As a Demi-romantic ace I have liked very few romances and it tends to only happen when the romance is a bit lighter and is a part of both characters arcs rather than being the focus of the arcs.
In term of romance in the Western media, finding love is declining as define of love has changed on relationship between the two persons, either homosexual or heterosexual. However, in the Japanese media, there are improving on depiction of the romance for different people from gays, lesbians, straight women and men.
I love Duck and Fakir from Princess Tutu, but I recently analyzed (for myself) Myutho and Rue, and I see what and how it happened.
Not gonna lie, when I was a kid I hated romance too 😂😂😂
Well, to be more precise, I kinda felt like I had to hate it, but it made me at the same time want to look and to look away.
"Let's talk about love, my loves" 10/10 I love that sentence 😂🤣🤣
Really really good video! I though no doubt you'd be able to give an interesting take on the state of romance in media, but somehow I didn't expect an interesting cultural analysis on things like love, the loneliness problem and so on. It's really really interesting.
About the part of characters staying together in a relationship, I suppose it can also be a result of just boredom with the "get together at the finale dynamic"? Stories evolve over time, and if I've learned something by studying literature is that since the 19th century, but specially this last century, literary tendencies shift soooo fast due to being in a more interconnected world. Those stories weren't explored yet, or not that much at least, and slowly more and more people demanded that to be done as well as more creators decided to include those kinds of storylines. As always, I guess, a lot of factors apply, I guess.
As an aroace, I see this as an absolute win
As demi-ro ace I second that.
same 😭
As an Aroace who enjoys romance, this makes me ipset
Damn. I love how multifaceted your takes are in your videos. I appreciate that you value nuance. This was a great vid!
One thing I miss about Homestuck is the more nuanced shipping. It's a system I've seen people still apply to other media because we desperately need more shorthand for "I think these characters have great chemistry/potential, I support their relationship," and that "ship" meaning things besides romance...
I would argue that the decline of romance in Disney films actually began in the 2000s, when we stopped seeing characters like Jasmine, Meg, Esmeralda, and Jane, the active and interesting love interests from the Renaissance era. Disney's male protagonists stopped having love interests around the time of The Emperor's New Groove; of Disney's halfway memorable male leads of the 2000s, only Milo Thatch of Atlantis: The Lost Empire has a love interest, while the majority of male-led 2000s Disney films focus on guy-guy friendships.
I'm not saying this is a bad thing, necessarily. But I do wonder why we only started to notice the decline of romance in animated films once FEMALE characters stopped falling in love, when no one seemed to bother about it before.
Thank you for talking about the creepy and messed up aspects so incredibly common in anime of any time period.
Can we all agree that it doesn’t matter what type of romance people prefer(bad girl/good girl, friends to lovers, forbidden love, etc), just have a romance be written well. That’s all I’m asking
I've been scoffing at this debate because it's a complaint that mostly comes from a certain crowd. A crowd that is aimlessly wanting to see what they want from a place where it won't happen. I have been hit left and right with relationships I love. Straight ones(Exploding Kittens), gay ones(Craig of The Creek), Sapphic ones(Arcane), and even pan ones(Monster High and Primos). Honestly, I feel people have this idealized version of romance. It doesn't matter if there are hundreds of relationships in the media. If it doesn't look like what these people what then, it doesn't exist. There's this indie series from youtuber Toonarific Tariq that is a love story, but I sure as hell know that people who are making these complaints didn't even know that they existed. To quote Chris Rock, "Open your eyes! Stick your head out the window".
Is that show from Toon Traiq out yet?
Until reading your comment I hadn't thought of Arcane's own romantic subplot, but it was definitely a well-developed one. Originally thinking of; "Sweet Home Alabama," "Love Hard," and "Love Actually" as different romantic films with two that had well-developed "slow burn" romances while the other just felt rushed and badly written just to focus on "romance = love" as the central theme
This is such a well constructed video on the deconstruction of how humans consume entertainment- absolutely incredible and extremely insightful
My teen "falling in love" episodes were in hindsight not very good. It got obsessive and a bit stalkerish. Luckily my wife and I are just extremely stable and in sync, which IMO beats obsessive passion any day. Our entire relationship is like a safe space where we can talk about feelings and even conflicts without it spiraling (well, almost never)
Tbh Romance feels dead in and out of media
9:50 I had to pause here because Disney pulling an age gap relationship in a film any time after the Bronze era is *wild* (please correct me if I'm wrong.) I don't think I'll ever see Tangled the same way again 💀
I can't help but think that a part of the reason romance has kind of died to many people is because of how representation itself has been getting treated throughout the years. One thing I definitely noticed is that there's a correlation between people who are tired of romance and those who ask for more queer rep, as well as the people who complain about unnecessary sex scenes. I know it sounds a little crazy but go with me for a second. Many people to this day will constantly complain about romantic subplots in fiction. Doesn't matter what show or movie or medium it is, they complain about it, most of it having to do with your typical "he was a boy she was a girl" heterosexual nonsense, that was often just forced in just cuz. People complain about gratuitous sex scenes, but the thing that became very clear is that they consider sex scenes, in general, gratuitous, often saying it doesn't add to the plot. For almost two decades now, people have been fighting for more queer representation and one on many fronts.
I feel like all three of these ended up combining in creating, as you put it earlier, the most sexless age of media that we have ever had. Even with queer characters in couples on screen, the ones that conservatives constantly complain about (further showcasing their inability to get past the first three letters in the word sexuality) feel like they can be interchangeable with straight couples and while for many that seems like the goal, in practice, it feels bland. As if in this pursuit to try and prove that queer people are just like straight people, we truly forgot that we're not. And in turn, this has hurt het presenting couples as well because many of them start to feel even blander than they did before. Like they're not flirty and they don't feel like they have Much chemistry.
And that's not even accounting for the fact that it feels like a lot of writers don't like writing happy couples. Like yes couples or 100% perfect all the time, but how much a lot of people when writing a couple often try to push this notion that they have problems too, just like everyone, for the sake of realism, just feels a bit cynical. Because at some point you start to notice how they act and you want to just ask "why are you all together?" Like maybe I'm just weird, but I like seeing a couple act like a couple and be into each other and lovey-dovey. And if they're not, I don't need them to be messy and arguing, I'd like to just you know act like a couple. People call Charlie & Vaggie in Hazbin Hotel boring, and before the show came out, I would have given people that criticism, but now, it just feels like they had nothing else they can say about them because they aren't problematic, they aren't toxic, they aren't constantly at each other's throats, and more often than not you see them supporting each other. It's like people's problem with them is that they don't have enough problems and/or aren't lovey dovey enough.
Like I genuinely believe a lot of people who complain about romance don't actually care about it in the first place. Like a lot of people love shipping because just the idea of two people together satisfies them, but once they are together, then these people want to find something to scrutinize and imo it's even worse for queer couples because there's already not a lot of prominent ones in the first place, so if they are viewed as not perfect or too perfect, people will say something regardless.
I saw couples being lovey dovey with pretty much no drama before. I found it even worse than the too much drama one. Like other plots in stories it should have a balance between drama and happy.
The thing that makes me most bitter about relationships in media and related to the drama is the forced return of status que. Where all progression in the relationship keeps getting reset.
Me and my partner have been together for over two years and I don't think we've ever argued, at least seriously. But we DO run into problems, like everyone else. So, from my perspective, a well-written healthy, happy couple can still be interesting if you put them through conflict (not always relationship conflict, mostly story conflict. Or perhaps inner conflict.) I'm so tired of seeing otherwise healthy couples be put through unnatural relationship conflict just for interest. Let them solve problems together 💔
Similar thoughts on actual couples. A lot of media doesn't ever seem to present like...actually sustainable relationship dynamics?
Weirdly it feels analogous to me to how often conflicts over all kinds of issues in films during the rise of the superhero franchises come down to just punching? And when I day this the analogy mainly comes into the more complicated methods of managing collateral damage, the rescuing, organizing, etc that kind of actually define characters like superman get under expressed because they are more complicated. So instead mlre edgy stuff gets focused on for stimulation and conflict but just ends up making a common bit of blandness? Similar dynamics seem to my perspective to be had for so many romances in films where more direct conflicts get chosen over more complicated issues that may require character development and sustained character acting resulting in a kind of bland melange.
To add to this more for general conflict writing advice: it gets unrealistic when all the characters argue for the sake of arguing. I find that some of the best person vs. person conflicts arise not from the characters disliking each other, but from the fact that they're just very different people with different lifestyles. It makes the conflict harder to solve because it's not just two or more people who hate each other just because. The conflict you have to solve is making the characters change as people. It's harder to solve, yes, but it's much more realistic and interesting (at least to me. Not that I dislike small arguments, but that shouldn't be the driving conflict. Have a variety. Not everyone is at each other's throat all the time.)
@@travislyonsgary Superman was originally intended to be a villain.
I'm a weird one to talk about romances. I'm Aro/Ace and i tend to want people to talk about stuff. So many romances are built around a key thing not being discussed so it can come as a twist later. As an author I think this is lazy writing.
Humans have a lot of growing to do, I think positive representations of romance and friendship (Which oddly are rarely portrayed as mutually inclusive.) will go a long way toward encouraging that growth.
It's not dying.
It's evolving.
Would like to see you tackle the male loneliness epidemic in the future
In Disney films, for most heroines, romance wasn't the main goal, whether it was in classic Disney movies, or during the Disney Renaissance, or even post-Disney Renaissance. For instance, Cinderella wanted to attend the royal ball not because she intended to meet someone, but because she wanted to escape her abusive stepfamily. In The Little Mermaid, Ariel wanted to explore the outside world, because it sparked her curiosity and because she wanted to escape her oppressive father. For each of these heroines, meeting the prince was a bonus. And Rapunzel in Tangled was imprisoned by an evil witch, not a family member. Goethel was pretending to be her mother, in order to harness the magical power of hair, so that she could maintain her youth and beauty. But you were right about some things: Rapunzel and Flynn's relationship did have more agency, than most Disney couples, where Rapunzel gets to make her own choices, and isn't influenced by someone else's. They actually get to know each other, as opposed to falling in love at first sight, or at first dance. She isn't a typical damsel in distress. But the original versions of fairy tales are a lot different than the movie adaptations.
Gay relationships in the media aren't a new concept. My mom had mentioned that there used to be a show my grandmother used to watch, called Soap, which was one of the first shows to ever feature gay characters. In fact, my mom had told me that my grandmother had recommended this show to one of her friends, because it was funny. Grandma's friend had replied that she couldn't watch the show, because the church wouldn't allow it. In any case, gay characters, mostly in television, date back to the 70s, 80s, 90s, and even the 00s. But yes, they are becoming more mainstream, now.
I think we could use more love stories, in the media. Without romance, movies and shows would be pretty boring to watch.
Small point on the age gap between Rapunzel and Eugene: Eugene was only 23 during the movie, and because he was an orphan who didn't know his actual birthday, he thought he was 22 (a fact added to the tv show because the movie and show writers had different ideas of how old he was and fans noticed the math was wrong). 4/5 years is still a big age gap but not as bad as 8 years.
Eugene is canonically 26 because they celebrate his birthday at the very end of the tv series Rapunzel's Tangled Adventure, by which point Rapunzel had been 20 for at least half a year.
Every guy I ever fell for had a seminar personality to my dad - both the few good points and a lot of the bad points that crept up more and more as I forced myself to stay in those relationships. I was drawn by the good qualities but like when my dad was around I stuck around and put up with abuse because I felt that I had no choice and told myself things would get better. They didnt get better until I escaped, and it was a quick fix to getting better, its taken years if hard work and adapting to get to where im at now. Escaping each of these relationships has really helped me to grow and be on the look out for red flags that don't immediately show in my range of vision. I hate it, I want rimance, to be safe and love and allowed to be vulnerable and actually be myself with that special someone. It's miserable to be on gard to protect yourself 24/7. Im still hoping for a deep connection with my solemate but I'm not getting any younger and I'm a different person to who I was back then, I still long for it but I've learnt to recognise that it's not the be all or end all and I'd rather be by myself then trapped with someone else as I had a lifetime of that. But I do have those days where I'm still trapped but in a slightly less opressive cage. I still hope to finally find that special someone and finally let myself breathe and be myself with them and vise versa but I've hit a point where I've mostly accepted that it may not happen, not in this lifetime at least.
Hey great video as always though i do have a mild criticism i think the video somewhat conflates lonely men with incels which are very different things what i mean is that loneliness in men is a common issue but lonely men shouldnt be conflated with abusive men who take their anger out on women but otherwise lovely video gave me a lot to think about ❤
Edit: i would like to state this isnt the most extreme criticism in the world but i do think that it should be pointed out that the conflation does muddle this convo a bit but i will be fair that i could be misinterpreting it cause the rest of the video is excellent
i saw ur pfp and toh so i clicked
I disagree that men loneliness is largely because of women success in the workplace. The whole workplace is now a mess because laws and culture have not kept up with advances in technology and society.
It's due to a whole bunch of reasons, and sadly, those are two of them. A lot of people in general get disheartened when they're surpassed in places where they think they should excel, and society as a whole tells men it should be them. That doesn't make it correct, but it's the current way of the world
@@Fionapollo I was somewhat referring to how jobs have become pencil pushing. People want to feel productive but a lot of jobs now feel empty.
Also people don't seem to acknowledge it but technology and society progress in general did make a lot of work unneeded. The government response to people lacking work however seems to have been to try and offer incentives which creates new issues.
Shoe On Shoe did a video about Lonely Men thing, but I feel like she put a lot of focus on women being the problem then anything else really.
I'm not a man but I experience loneliness and isolation. I don't think it's a genderd problem but rather a circumstantial one. Many people having been struggling both economically and socially ever since the pandemic. Obviously other factors that you've brought up play are part too but i feel that this can get overlooked sometimes.
Hey, Fiona. Great work on another good video. :)
If I may, I think sitcoms might have also contributed to the souring of people's opinions about romance. To cite a couple of obvious but still noteworthy examples, husbands like Raymond from Everybody Loves Raymond and Doug from The King of Queens aren't the brightest light bulbs in the hardware store, and wives like Debra and Carrie from those same shows are off-puttingly mean and nasty. It makes you wonder how they stood each other long enough to get married, let alone want to have kids together.
I think in film we're starting to see more stories centred on non romantic love (which is kinda nice as an queer / aro person honestly!) but it coinciding with more and more female leads of colour is also kind of unfortunate since they've also been denied as not just leads but especially romantic leads in fiction. That said, romcoms, shipping in fandom, and TV shows I think have as much romance as ever -- in The Dragon Prince there's three couples who are established and together throughout the majority of the show, queer or otherwise, balancing being plot relevant without having contrived drama, to the point I'd rec it as a romance series for someone who wants that in tv fantasy. Lumity was a cute ship in TOH but I think drew me in less because they felt so removed from the stakes of the plot, sometimes
So I just got some thoughts, warning they might not make any sense. But yeah, there's definitely a shortage of romance or at least specific romance. I feel like nowadays folks are trying to edge the line between "not to fast" and "it feels like they're in love." While doing a lot better with love via the family bond. So, like everything everywhere all at once was super strong on being a good family together, but also had that cute straight relationship. Meanwhile, while some things are more vague. So, in my opinion, there's a bit of will they won't they in Spiderverse for instance. Where Gwen's saying it would never work, but then Miles still has a lot of longing scenes, being concerned for Gwen or immediately jumping in to help her, getting jealous of spider punk, etc, but it's just really vague. And of course, this is in contrast to TV, where sometimes love is super quick, like Arcane or vague like Blue Eyed Samurai where the main character has been scorned by love, but she starts to show interests in a side character to a small degree. Side note I want more badass women like Blue eyed Samurais Mizu she's a hardass who learns to become more vulnerable and feminine, but still has that fighter nature when needed. Even showing in flashbacks of past loves that she can be playful and kind to sometimes submissive in the relationship, but never loses that badass nature, just knows where to put it. It's a really good mix, inspires me with some of my writing I want to get into. Final thought I wanted to say, I hear a lot that modern day hollywood or shows in general HATE romance, and I really don't think that's true. I think right now we're going through a lot of Renaissance in art. We don't really know how we want to represent things, some are held back by corporate interests, and some weigh what audience they really want to speak to too heavily on the mind and it's all kinda caused writing to be a bit everywhere. Like sometimes I watch a show and can see what they're going for, I see a better way it could of been written, but only because the writing presents this or has all the story plots there, then it just doesn't happen. And top of it all you now have AI causing artists to go off and make their own shows/games that have real potential.
It’s sad. I wanna go back to the old days.
I've been single for pretty much my whole life up to now and for the longest time, romance has always been my least favorite genre (I'm a geek for sci-fi, horror, action, etc.), but I will enjoy romantic relationships in entertainment as long as it feels natural to me and is well-executed.
In my opinion romance is so overrated and overdone, in movies/books/music etc. Like, not everything needs a freaking romance. I'm also on the aromantic spectrum so I generally hate seeing that shit. Yet, I love shipping characters XD and LGBT+ romances. But in general I hate how important media makes put romance to be. In my opinion there needs to be a break from all the romance crap. Not all together forever, but they just need to stop putting so much importance and focus on it. So I have no issue with this
I can relate regarding the whole hating romance thing. I also hated it as a kid; thought it was pointless boring drama that made the characters look shallow and took us away from the stuff that actually interested me (like the superhero/Fantasy/scifi stuff). Pretty sure it wasn't because I was jealous of the men or women though :p
I have grown slightly more appreciative of it now because I recognize it can sometimes serve as a good tool to develop characters and explore new facets, but I am still a bit iffy on it because of how often it can turn out poorly.
Another splendid video
Luz and amity are a porfect couple of two girls they should not be afraid to do lgbt couple in animation shows because it's cute and cool
Eugene was actually 23 when he and Rupunzel met. It’s revealed in the Tangled series, he is 26 by the end though.
i love suzume
this is unrelated to the video, i just love that movie
an interesting note on romance manga and anime is how the stories are ending, not just at the moment they hold hand but getting them together and continuing the plot after, if one's lucky even a post manga on them married and family, basically the good ending than the story just dragging out forever
Idk if anyone has said this yet buuuut if you do the math Flynn Ryder (aka Eugene FitzHerbert) doesn’t know he’s actually a year older than he actually is until season 3 of tangled the animated seires where he turns 26, so technically he is only 23 when he meets Rapunzel but only mentally 22.
For that time period that is average but that is still a 4 year age gap, and she is still freshly 18, yadda yadda bla bla bla
I had a coworker who had the same age gap as that with me, he was 4 years older than me and i made a joke about “you were a senior when i was a freshman” and then we high-fived and went “SO GLAD WE ARE ONLY FRIENDS! Yay!”
As for being wary of anime and their uncomfortable romantic content.
I experienced this in Weathering with You.
I thought it was a really cute romance but was incredibly frustrated that they got to the end and revealed the 17/18 year old heroine is actually a 14/15 middle school student.
Why would you trick your audience into investing in a romance involving an underage girl?
Idk if i hace much thpughts on the video, it was well done and said what it need to, what i will say is that, for me i hated romance, especially unnecessary romance until 16-17, when i met and fell in love with my first girlfriend. That as a whole changed my perspective on it and now i kind of melt with a well written romantic stoeyline, especially queer ones. I think i hated it because it was too attached in my head to sex (and im ace so that really didnt mesh for me) and was superficial, and i frankly didnt understand romance, in a simialer way, while before i always thought while having a partner would be nice it would never be a priority, to now where, i cant imagine a future where i don't have someone in my life. So yeah, idk maybe that is generally why as people age they tend to not dind romance gross and enjoy it more but maybe im extrapolating on my personal experience to much.
Raise your hand up if you think Frozen 3 (or 4) is going to be about Elsa kissing Kristoff without his consent and Anna finds out and of course, she has to slap him even worse (like, in issue 134 of the Archie series) than she did to Prince Hans (which of course, because he is or was a rich, white prince, they won’t give a redemption arc unless it turns out to be half-assed like in Kung Fu Panda 4 just to make the Chameleon look worse than the villains in all three of its predecessors combined despite the fact that Tai Lung and Kai, while you can totally understand why he became that way, turned out to be an entitled pricks, and Lord Shen was a genocidal egomaniac) because instead of learning more about what her sister did to her husband (which was force herself on him), she decided (as someone who would think she’s a “strong independent woman”) to not let him explain (which she would think is her soon-to-be ex-husband justifying his actions) and force him to think he was deliberately cheating on her with his sister-in-law so that they would divorce and she can get back together with either Hans or some different man who apparently “treats her better than he ever could” and there might even be a scene where Anna dates someone behind Kristoff’s back before their divorce (likely not Hans) and Elsa acts like a yandere every time Kristoff talks with other women (his ex-wife being the least likely option) but we’re not supposed to think that Anna is the one that would cheat on him or that Kristoff secretly loves Elsa because according to the new CEO Dana Walden, women can do no wrong…
Yeah, I think this is part of what will soon come to be the closest thing to romance in the second quarter-century of 21st century cinema (except for in the Mario movie sequel where to stand out from other romantic portrayals in other Hollywood movies by actually being genuine, Peach thinks about whichever man to date, most likely Mario since despite her amazing looks, she might only have romantic feelings for one man, and then their chemistry becomes more and more organic like in the first movie whereas when Mario interacts with other women, unlike Anna to Kristoff or Hans if they kept their relationship even after the original, Peach is actually aware that Mario isn’t cheating on her with Daisy or anyone else, and yet, of course Disney shills will defend Disney’s modern works but never Illumination’s unless it’s I dunno, Despicable Me 4?)
I used to be so obsessed with romance until it just started grossing me out and only a few great relationships actually make me go "awww" when they kiss or stuff
I remember having this kind of conversation with my parents because- well- I’m not romance whatsoever. I don’t mind romance. It’s just I’m tired of bad romance stories. But I guess it’s also because a lot of romance and certain types of scenes have just been my face and a lot of other peoples faces for a good while… and I just don’t want that😭😭😭 it’s kind of interesting
While I don't care for romance overall, I do find myself quite taken by GL romance Webcomics and whatnot, and I cannot explain it. It is nice that it is becoming more common. Hopefully executives will bugger off and stop interfering with LGBTQ+ theme and romance in telle
I wanna see more MLM romances in the fantasy/horror genre - I've seen WLW romance as a more common theme for any genre with lgbtq+ couples , where's my men at 😥. Most the fiction I see with them as a main romance, it's just to sexualized -
no hate but wdym sexualisation? The way I see it, this happen to women as well. Like some people will say they are sexualités for having sex? Idk, anyway you should watch east/ south Asian shows they have a lot of mlm couples in more serious stories
@@user-uz4wi2jk8z I'm completely fine with characters having sex , but it comes to when a whole genre is just characters doing spicey stuff , and that is the bl genre, not sure about actual shows/movies, but when it comes down to them in comic form, like 90% of it is just sex , even when the plot is good, the characters fuck wayyy to much, and alot of times its forced stuff (from the ones I use to read) . ofc its very true woman go through the same stuff , but straight romance is found in almost every show/movie/book, and there is alot of choices and when it comes to LGBTQ+ ships as a whole, ships with two woman is the most common.
@@CultivationOfMayhem. Then don’t read them? How are you punishing yourself with 90% or things you don’t like? Internet is a wonderful place search those 10% you think are fine, crazy how you can just scroll and ignore but you choose to acknowledge them, it feels like I can’t relate to you bc due to my picky nature for any genre ever, I always find the things that suits exactly the type of things I like, whether it’s in action, romance, portrayal of female characters, or gay relationships etc. I swear there are amazing mom stories then, tbh what I find funny is that one of my fav mom book has a lot of sex due to the whole point of the character’s relationships (basically hook up to lovers) but I still ended up connecting deeply with the characteres and liked the book for the characters and their journey. Foreign shows also helps, what you didn’t find in Western shows can be found in Asia for example
@@user-uz4wi2jk8z I don't read them , not anymore , it's just all I find when I do decide I wanna try and find something .
And I'm asexual , so finding a character I can relate to (relationship wise) is difficult 😅(which is why I'm writing my own stories lol).
There is one book series I really love, not sure if its Asian or Chinese , but its just confusing asf to me cuz I have a hard time reading already and all the words are confusing even tho its written in English . 🥲
As a more-than-likely ace person, I'm pretty disinterested in romance, especially cliched, hetero romance. Because of all the cliche romance, I have a hard time seeing most straight romance in media as anything other than a cheap trick for a "happy ending". Sprinkle on a couple outdated and sexist sentiments, and you're done.
I think I'm more accepting of queer romances on principal, as they don't usually have kinda sexist tropes, and they are usually actually trying with the romance.
...I think I just have major issues with romance in general, in real life and in fiction. Especially straight romance, and it's ludicrously unhealthy pioneering as "everyone's goal in life".
The thing that frustrates me about incels and boys who delve into the manosphere is that...yeah they need support too, and yeah our society isn't set up to give it to them (for the same reasons women are oppressed, ironically), but it's not like there aren't people who are _trying_ to help them. Sometimes you just get fed up and say "It's not my job to fix your problems for you," sure, but there are people trying to be kind to them and give them advice. It's just that most of the time they don't want to listen, so you get very little result for a ton of effort. It sucks.
Yep, therapy/self-help only works when the subject wants assistance. If they want to wallow in their own filth, that is their prerogative; and their prerogative alone.
It could also be a self-perpetuating cycle; people like Jordan Petersen acts like they're an expert but create an insular "cult" that think they know what they're talking about only to create a toxic mindset. Because people become centered on listening to those who are like-minded this leads to creating fractures within society; Involuntary Celibates believe they're "entitled" to have a girlfriend, Aro/Ace individuals are lumped in with incels because they have no desire for a relationship and are seen as "broken," Hatemongers like Matt Walsh or Jordan Petersen focus anger onto marginalized people and further push a social separation because they believe their own mindset is the "correct one," and everyone else who's either caught in the middle or forced to "pick a side"
only if that advice is good which it isn't always
easy to say help is there but if the response of that help is "you need to acknowledge [buzzword here]" gaslighting it won't change that person's mind
thing is: many people think that there is "ONE correct way to deal and process emotions". and if a man doesn't do it "correctly" like not talking about his feelings for example, they often belittle him for "doing it wrong".
the possibility that the man tries to deal with his emotions in a different manner than talking about them, never seems to be considered.
and maybe i'm just reading too much into stuff, but people seem to assume that if you don't talk about your feelings that you ALWAYS bottle them up.
what also irks me is that whenever people say "men would rather do XY than go to therapy", there is always a slight arrogance in their tone. as if men only don't go to therapy, because "they're just too StUpId". the truth is that therapy just doesn't work for some men. Or that many therapists don't know how to actually help men.
@Legomicroman I honestly don't get where the "men don't talk about their feelings" come from. Most guys literally don't ever shut up about their feelings and beliefs. I do agree most guys need to do things other than talk. Now convincing my buddies to be productive is hard.
I don't think romance is dying. What I believe is happening is that the theme of romance is becoming more undefined and broad. Until I would say the 1990s, most people defined true love as dreaming about marriage and kids. That's why so many of the Disney films in the 90s did so well in that regard. Now, a lot of people either view the idea of romance different from it's once linear form, or people just don't like the idea of romance in general because it's too hard to stay in a relationship, or for many, it's very hard to find someone to fall in love with who truly accepts and loves you for who you are.
For me as someone who grew up in the 90s. I believe now as someone who is single and pushing thirty that many of those classic Disney films put pressure onto a whole generation of kids to "find their happily ever after." And when it doesn't happen, or life gets in the way, more and more people become cynical of romance and Disney's old themes of them, I know I have. I believe most people want a prince charming to be there white knight in shining armor, but the minuscule chance of someone finding a person like that is so incredibly rare that films like The Little Mermaid and Aladdin just comes off as wishful thinking and nothing more. You will probably have a better chance of winning the lottery at this point than trying to find someone personality wise like Eric or Aladdin, or any of the Disney guys that come off as handsome and genuinely good people.
Oh, and writing romance WELL would also help. If comedy is dead, I would say romance is tied with horror films for being terribly written. If you want that stuff, you watch anime for it now, not western media (me in a nutshell...)
Actualy, in the movie Eugene was 24, but he tought he was 23. In the series, during season 3, who happened two years after the movie, he discovered he was one year older after meeting his father
I can remember some movies and anime I like that has romance. Arashi no Yoru ni is a great queer movie that is also a anti racism movie. Ronantic Killer is a show that is more into the platonic love than romantic.
I love especially the Cutie Honey Flash that their couple is honestly better than Sailor Moons Usagi and Mamorus relationship.
I still love fairy tale romance, unrealistic as it may be. But the good thing about an evolution on how people write romance is that you’re able to *experiment and figure out what works for your writing*. I’m trying to stray away from it in most of the projects I’m working on, because as an aroace person, I want to focus more on platonic friendships. But I still like the idea of romance and like to indulge on occasion. When I do write romance, my goal is to try and write a convincing relationship. If the chemistry isn’t good, chances are the romance won’t be either.
I see this as an absolute win (me as an aromantic person who is repulsed by romance)
The bank account thing has a lot of asterisks, the spending power controlling the box office and influence in general is correct for sure but there were a lot of efforts for women having bank accounts solely to themselves even 50 years before then. There's a lot of activism that tends to get erased in that line. Just like with gay marriage different States had solo women ownership in the country like California back in the 1800's
10:06 I loved that as a kid.
in my mind art can show how the world is soo if romance is dying in art then that's not a good look for our world.
Art is human expression, It can reflect the world but it often reflects the creators mind themselves. Romance dying could be an indicator that many people don't really care about romance. And that's fine. Romance shouldn't be seen as a big deal. Let romance be a neutral part in everyday life.
As an aroace person myself, writing romance is a very sore topic to me because I have no idea how real romance works OR what kind of fictional romances people like or dislike.
If you write a cutesy happy Disney fairy tale-style romance like you mentioned in the video, people will complain about it being bland and generic like they do with classic Disney films (or for a more recent example, Shining Armor and Princess Cadance in MLP: FIM).
But if you write a soap opera-style romance where the relationship starts out kind of rocky, but they get to know each other better over time? People complain about it being toxic and unhealthy, like with Retsuko and Haida, or Blitzo and Stolas.
Maybe I won't write romance at all, since people often praise films like Finding Nemo or Moana for not having romance in them. Wait, now they're complaining about how Disney is too scared to write romance nowadays for cutting the Starboy romance out of Wish, so if I don't write romance I guess that makes me a coward.
Maybe I'll see which characters the fandom ships, because they know more about romance than I do, so they MUST be right! Wait, now they've changed their minds and are saying that the characters should just be friends, like the Hazbin Hotel fandom did with HuskerDust.
It's really confusing and frustrating when there's a fictional romance I like that other people dislike. For instance, that one commenter who talked about Elemental vs Tangled. I don't see anything wrong with Ember and Wade's relationship, they worked perfectly fine for me. Is there something wrong with me as an aromantic person for liking "bad" fictional romances and not understanding what makes a romance good or bad? This is why I'm so ashamed of being aro.
EDIT: The two people who chose to bitch about Retshaida are just proving my point more instead of answering my question.
I feel like this comes down to how the desire for consensus and objectivity clashes with the fact that, well, there's never any accounting for taste.
OKAY BUT!!! I'm still so bitter about Retsuko and Haida bc they spent like 4 seasons telling me that Retsuko sees nothing in Haida that she likes (other than potentially money that one episode) and then suddenly she's married to him??? I refuse to believe!! That romance was unbelievable fr 😭 She deserved better!!
From someone who is more Ace than Aro, I think people can be enticed or turned off by how the dynamics of the couple characters are portrayed as. Whether it be by appearance or personality type. I feel like the most effective way in terms of consuming/creating romance is to have them being noticed as individuals rather than ALWAYS linked together cause it has a better view of what the dynamic is like for the other character (Plus it's fricking annoying seeing one character being referred to as just "this character's love interest"). It can also, whether fans see "couples" as toxic, unhealthy, or should just stay friends is only perspective, and fandoms don't really define what a good romance is even if they think they do.
In regards to you mentioning Wish, I cared less that we could have gotten a Starboy romance, but disappointed that we could have gotten a VILLIAN DUO with a cat. I don't even care if they loved each other or not, but just loved the prospects of being villainous as a team!
Sorry if this reply is too long, it just caught my attention. 😅
Im aroace but i enjoy watching good and well written romances (but keep freaky stuff AWAY since im VERY freaky repulsed). Though its hit or miss, either im obsessed or im gagging.
@@CaptainSoftboy501i hated that romance cause haida was straight up creepy. Season one was fine since he hadnt asked her out at that point and it was not really that creepy, that was until he kept trying to win her over AFTER SHE SAID NO. He was super possessive over someone who had clearly stated that she had NO interest in him and was in a relationship. And yet he got rewarded for that?! I honestly think it couldve worked if done right but BOY did they fumble.
I really didn't like romance as a kid. I feel like maybe it's not good to push romantic plots on children before they hit puberty. They should have more time to be kids and not think about dating. (I was homeschooled and it shocks me when I see parents talking about their preteens having boyfriends/girlfriends. In my homeschooled circles, I didn't start seeing crushes and such until the kids were about 16 or so.) I suspect that some of the lack of romance in modern films is because the people who didn't like romance as kids grew up.
I will also say that I think that the shipping thing has ruined friendships in media. Now it seems like very few characters can love and care for each other without the whole internet deciding they're romantically in love. (This used to just be a problem with M/F relationships, but now it's EVERYTHING.)
Nah, they would absolutely do that to M/M and F/F relationships while demonizing the F/M ones, making us feel bad to "force" a male and female together, while they're being hypocritical about it, on social medias.
What’s happening with Ezra and Sabine from the Star Wars franchise brought me here. They had the potential (and probably still does) have the potential to be among the best love stories in the series since Han and Leia. There is just too much foundation, set up and even implications for it not happen. Question is. Is it still secretly in the cards or it is over? Honestly, I hope it turns out to be a twist.
That's how I feel about SpongeBob and Sandy from SpongeBob SquarePants. They have so much potentials with their very strong chemistry, interactions and even implications of some sort of romantic tension between the two (Well, in SpongeBob's side), that I can't help but think that they should get together at at some point. I am still feeling grated that the writers try so hard to make it clear they wouldn't get them together (At least in the current show proper). And those annoying social media shippers (Or even that Twitter post, which was a misunderstanding to begin with) certainly doesn't help.
PS: Despite the popular misconception, SpongeBob is NOT literally ace.
@@missplayer30 Spongebob and Sandy aren't even the same species. Wait.... Mr. Krabs had.... Pearl (that was a whale)? How does that work? Adopted? God, my head hurts.
@@coletrain583 Apparently, in this universe, it's possible for interspecies couples to not only be a thing but also to have children with each other (Trust me, Patrick's maternal grandma is a squid, which his sister definitely take after).
Even if you use the argument they're "not the same species" you obviously forgot Mr Krabs and Ms Puff.
@@missplayer30 What the hell is goining on here?
I think romance is dying because in our current world of values and progress, romance isn't necessary anymore. First, except for adoption, there are stuff like fertilizations and sperm banks. the idea of being in a relationship with someone to make a baby has faded and kids and babies could be given in many other ways. Secondly, we are more aware that there are more people with different sexualities that are not necessarily egg x sperm with some not including any egg or sperm (aroace). Thirdly, sex and emotions in general are a tricky thing to talk about since not everyone is comfortable about it. So it's much safer to keep friendship and not go for romance. Fourthly, the idea of getting your "soulmate" and starting a family being the ultimate goal is now very outdated. An ultimate goal is something very personal. From climbing the highest mountain to making a difference in the world, not everyone (at least today) has the same desire. Lastly, it could be for pushing for better priority orders as if you have someone you love more than someone else, it could make that someone else feel neglected, alone among many other things. It could also lead to favoritism problems and moral dilemma. But it is far more easier and simpler if you treat others in an equal way, meaning you keep them all at the same distance no matter how and what you feel about them.
You did at least say some points that you would've expected. Part of why it declined is due to changing standards in society, people taking fictional media at face value and over-comparing it to real life standard. As well as you can't really pick and choose who your audience will be and unfortunately it would stain it a bit with someone who's definitely mentally disturbed and got famous for the wrong reasons.
Sort of an unrelated observation, but is it just me or there haven't been any indie highlights recently?
I haven't rly had the time or energy to do any alongside irl stuff, regular vids & commissions. They still require research & gathering material between every normal video which can become draining after a while. I'll try to pick them up again at some point but i just needed a break
@@Fionapollo Oh, that's alright, I was just curious. I enjoy all of your content anyway. Take care
I thought in snow white she was 14 and he was 30?
In the original tale, but their ages in the disney version were never confirmed as far as i know
It's probably personal preference, but I generally dislike romance in media, especially when it feels forced or unnecessary. Like I read a few queer romance novels when I started questioning my sexuality, but after a while I just kinda stopped, and that stuff doesn't interest me anymore and now I prefer things without romance. That isn't to say that I dislike all romance-- if one is particularly well-written and makes me care about the characters and their relationship, I can actually enjoy it. (example: I really loved FitzSimmons from Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.) Just felt like sharing my opinion.
I feel you. I almost exclusively grew up with straight romance as well as shipping exclusively straight couples, then I had my yaoi/yuri fangirl phase who loves to get two guys together while pushing off the female, but I eventually got bored of gay couples and I became so numb about romance or anything adult with the couple that I don't care for it anymore (The rushed and politicized push for lgbt romance certainly doesn't help). But I still would love to see more actual romance outside of fans shippings (Well crushes and implication of a possible romantic tension is enough for me), it's lacking today.
Why do we need romance though? Isn’t a story better when nobody gets together?
Sometimes ppl like schmaltz & wanna live vicariously through fiction idk 🤷♀️
I don't really like romance in media, but I am ace.
The best relationship in western media are gay and the best action manga/anime are written by women (FMA, Frieren, Demon Slayer, Delicious in Dungeon).
D Gray Man is peak shonen and written by a lady lol
I'm so proud of those fellow talented women writers.
i like romance.... in media
also first i think-
I'm sorry but film was never limited or even enjoyed mostly by the "wealthy". From the short nickelodeons onwards to proper movie theaters in the 30s, (leaving aside the absolute poor and homeless), movies where always accessible to the general public with a normal income.
romance has gotten to complicated 😢
I think lgbt romance is sooooooo cute and in animation movies if the story is good and Characters be well written so is porfect and luz and amity works because they was no afraid so more LGBTQ couples ❤❤❤❤🏳️🌈🏳️🌈❇❇👍👍👍🗣😍😊✊✊✊👩❤️👩👩❤️💋👩👩❤️💋👩👭
No, just read one or two ship fics
To me this is simply a symptom of a larger problem. People are absolute dogshit at telling a story. The Art of Storytelling is dying and it's thanks to post 90s and oughts deconstructionism.
Postmodernism is defined as 'the death of art' and it's where we are today.
The 90s in particular at least for the US is where you start to see the desire for 'gritty realism' in entertainment which gave way to the evolution of the 00's Edgelord nonsense. This effectively what killed the 'happy ending' of the 70s and 80s. People demanding more 'realism' in their entertainment instead of seeing it as an idea to strive toward even if it couldn't be achieved is what led to the decline we see today.
It's why I'm ultimately disgusted by the idea of 'representation'. Because it started with the desire to see messy unhappy lives reflected in entertainment.
I have nothing against experimentation and exploration of themes and ideas but the entire cultural shift of the 90s just created a downward depression spiral. Sure the Happy Ending is unrealistic but they have their place too. "So we can believe the bigger lies." -Death when discussing the importance of the Hogfather to his granddaughter Susan.
Ultimately this desire to see 'realism' reflected in entertainment lead to the need to deconstruct Narration and now people just don't understand how to tell Story anymore.
Romance can be a positive thing. Art can and does reflect life so the idea that romance can make people happy is true. That's why people seek it so much and especially today when happiness is hunted and strangled by society at large, people seek it out wherever they can.
Even if that means twisting and forcing it into existence where inappropriate. Hence shipping wars and the 'OH THEY FACKIN' trope.
I would also like to point out that given Japan's conservative nature and how they repress themselves in public, the bizarre downright uncanny and sometimes mindbogglingly strange sights you see in anime is effectively their decompression for maintain a strict appropriate decorum in public. So can't agree with you since I understand WHY it's so weird. It their way of wiling out behind closed doors where appropriate.
First?
I 100% support lgbt romance make the story better i could do a animation how lgbt Import to people lifes
I only like it when it's already established.