I would have loved to pursue an MFA, but it wasn’t in the cards financially. Honestly, though, I feel like I’ve learned so much studying craft and technique on my own. No regrets! There are many paths to excellence.
I got an MFA in Creative Nonfiction. I spent about 30K, but I feel like it will be worth having the degree for when I'm ready to query my first manuscript. My BFF and I went through the same program and it was really nice having that sense of community of writers to support you--even though I'm not really in touch with most of the people from my MFA program, I know that we are and will be cheering each other on in the years to come. It cost me about $35K, which I paid for with my full time job and I actually found it quite doable. Don't go into debt for it, pay cash if you can or wait until you've saved enough. But beware, there can be a lot of toxicity in these programs as well--especially for writers of color.
I've heard about the toxicity thing on these courses before, despite knowing very little about them. What do you think is the cause or the main problem? (I'm in the UK, English/female/white)
I just want to say that I explicitly opted to NOT go to grad school after I got my bachelor's degree because I a) didn't know what I wanted to study and b) knew that the only reason I was thinking about it was to avoid having to figure out a job after I graduated. I am very grateful I did not take on that debt.
While I don’t plan to go for MFA, I could see myself going for the community and the focused writing time. I love being surrounded by people, especially those who share my passion, and I hate how little I write currently
I just graduated from the University of Southern Maine's Stonecoast program which has a Popular Fiction specialization (basically all SFF + mystery + MG & YA)--it's in the Top 4 low-residency MFAs in the country and the PopFic specialization is AMAZING. Definitely great on the community aspect and my writing improved so much throughout my time. It's one of the programs that isn't uber competitive and there's a lot of collaboration between the PopFic, LitFic, and CNF writers. Plus (biggest plus) is that it's way less expensive than, say VCFA. Only about $30,000 TOTAL for the 2 years. Still not cheap, but much more doable.
Applied to Hamline after watching this video and I got into their MFA program straight out of undergrad! I'm so incredibly thankful you put this out there because otherwise I would have given up on grad school altogether. Thank you so much Alexa!
...Man, I'm just feeling really grateful I'm Australian. Total cost of my Master of Creative Writing - $20,800. Total amount can be put on HECS debt (Higher Education Contribution Scheme), don't have to start paying back until you're earning over $45k a year. This is true for all Australian citizens and permanent residents at public unis in Australia, incidentally. And it can be done completely online - there are on-campus days, but they're optional, and you can do them full time or part time. So if this is something that is available to you, then I absolutely recommend it. I haven't just got some amazing experience in workshopping, but the actual classes, the readings, stuff like that - it's stuff I'm going to be using throughout my entire career. It is absolutely possible to learn similar stuff on your own, but not gonna lie, it could be harder, just getting access to all the resources (being able to access academic writing through the uni, access to staff, access to other writers to workshop with, stuff like that). But yeah, the cost of those courses in America... yeesh. I can 100% understand why people might be turned off doing them!
One thing I may add, most academic based MFAs or at least many offer teaching assistants w/ partial to full funding (I did not pay for my degree) . That said they can be hard to get into & it isn't for everyone
@@AlexaDonne Thanks so much for responding. Btw I really loved the video because it was a side I was less familiar with and I love your channel in general :)
I earned my MFA from Hollins University in Roanoke, VA. It's a quieter area of the country with a relatively low cost of living. They have a general lit MFA (high residency) and one focused on children's lit (classes in the summers, I think?). I did the general lit MFA. It's a tiny program--12 students admitted per year--and everyone receives full tuition remission, which is HUGE. But that also means it's harder to get into. Cost was a huge factor when I was applying to MFA programs, so I only allowed myself to look at programs that provided full funding. They do exist, but they are harder to get into. I absolutely agree with your assessment that MFA programs skew toward the literary; even programs that are open to genre or commercial fiction still have their biases. Hollins is open to all genres (in fact, one of my classmates wrote a sci-fi novel for her thesis), but most of the faculty's knowledge was in the literary realm and so they didn't always know how to support her... I've only heard good things about Hollins' children's lit program, though I can't speak for the nitty-gritties of its structure/cost because I didn't attend myself. Thanks for making such helpful videos! :)
I don't have an mfa but I use my other college degrees in physics engineering biology, chemistry, history, theology, psychology, and others to make my world building more believable. It helps the audience become fully immersed in in the stories. And once they are drawn into the stories and the worlds writers create in fantasy and sci-fi they want to see more. You do not have to have an actual degree but it helps if you have a practical or working knowledge of the subjects you write about.
I've just passed my viva for my creative writing PhD (!!!) at the University of Kent, and there's certainly a lot of truth in this. I knew going into the programme that it wasn't "necessary". But I also knew, and have known since I was a child, that writing is my whole world. And I've always known that, while I desperately want to be published, the thing I want more than anything is to be a great writer. Between wanting a way out of the country and wanting access to intense and excellent mentorship, it felt like the right call. (Un)luckily, I was so in debt from undergrad and my overseas MA the exorbitant cost was basically irrelevant. Every second was agony (the pressure and the guilt and the imposter syndrome are off the scales) but now that I'm done I'm so glad I did it. I should also add: I went into that programme thinking that I knew how to write and that I was a decent writer.Turns out I didn't, and I wasn't. I'm much more confident and skilled now as a result of that rigorous focus and mentorship. While I wouldn't recommend postgrad writing programmes to anyone because it has ruined my mental, physical, and financial health, if drastically improving your craft is that important to you it is an excellent bootcamp.
I have an MFA and it's great if you want to develop skills in critiquing and to give yourself time to write. You can make connections that may raise you to the top of the slush pile, but it won't get you published on association alone. It's great if you want to dedicate yourself to writing for a period of time because it's a great, positive atmosphere. It also can net you the experience and degree you need to teach college. I loved my experience and know it made me better, but it's not the only way to get better. I would also not go into debt for it. I was lucky to go to a well funded program so it was worthwhile for me.
I did an MA in Creative Writing (in the UK) and while it didn't teach me the mechanics of writing, it helped me learn how to write a story. It helped me stay accountable and get into the habit of writing. The workshopping was invaluable. Through editing other peoples work I learned how to look out for similar things in my own work. I also made friends for life on that course. But, I don't think it's necessary. For me, who had no idea where to start, it was something I sorely needed. Ultimately the choice is up to you. They are for sure valuable, but at the end of the day, it's still up to you and your determination.
@@AlexaDonne Oh, really?? I did mine at Bath Spa University. i really enjoyed it and learned a lot. We also had the chance to put an anthology together which was really invaluable
This was so helpful to hear! And actually, I am just finishing up my BFA in creative writing and last year, I applied for an MFA program and they were willing to pay for my entire degree if I agreed to teach a course (which I would be a paid a stipend for). So those exist. But I had to find my own housing down there and it was a big choice I ultimately decided against. It was literary fiction and I wasn’t sure I was even ready for it.
I am in the last year of my MFA in Creative Writing program - big picture - no I don't need it. I went back for a master's in publishing and the MFA was only 6 more classes. I'll graduate with 2 degrees and a manuscript...so...I THINK it's a win. But I enjoyed both programs and learned a ton.
When I was in my teens and early twenties I truly believed that MFAs were the be all and end all for writers. That belief ended after I got into my 20s and met a few writers that didn't go through it. I've met people who have their MFA and haven't written anything or they haven't gotten any work with an MFA. I have learned that reading novels of different genres and committing myself to a writing plan has been essential to being a writer. Its taken me around 6 to 7 years to be comfortable with my writing voice and style. I'm currently working on a book.
I never planned on doing an MFA program, starting my college career with going into musical performance, MFA felt like a similar program that really didn't need to be used unless you wanted to teach. I can see where they can come in handy, but it's a huge relief that I don't have to go for one. I did want to say, I finished 'The Stars We Steal' and man my feels need some time, I loved it!
I'm so glad you enjoyed it! I'm so nervous to see what people think. I know some readers expected more sci-fi but it's like... unabashedly 100% a HEA romance.
@@AlexaDonne With Brightly Burning coming before this and the pitch line of 'Batchelor In Space' I was hoping it was going to be a fun heart wrenching romance. Thank you for delivering on that! This reads like a smarter (like WAY smarter) 'The Elite' but in space. I am so excited to see what 'The Iveys' is like!
There is soooooo much information about writing craft, also online classes, workshops, and groups. If you are serious about being a writer and have the discipline you can do it without the degree.
I got mine at Seton Hill University (in Greensburg, Pennsylvania). Two-year MFA program in Writing Popular Fiction---students focus on writing in a specific genre: Horror, SciFi, Romance (mine), YA/Children's, Mystery, etc. The romance novel I wrote as my master's thesis was my first (traditionally) published novel.
I'm in the process of getting an MFA from Naropa University in Boulder CO, and the biggest reason was that I haven't had any confidence in my writing up til now. It's creative writing & poetics (very literary fiction oriented) but what I've really felt stronger about is the way I see my commercially leaning prose start to just... tighten, and get stronger, and I can really narrow in on how to make my betas have the feels I'm going for. It's also been really good about the idea of what kind of publishing schedules I want to look at in future, and figure out where I can diversify income even just in writing (without considering teaching, which is a whole other thing). Naropa also really considers social justice and ways to try to promote less-heard stories at the same time as finding my own, and I have found letterpress printing which is probably my next great love in life. It's *really* pricey though, and that has been a concern. I'm glad I've been able to go, because I think I've just done some very accelerated growth, but the price tag is still a real issue that I wish was something that limited fewer people wanting to learn...
Just an FYI from a Minnesotan - in my experience I’ve always heard it pronounced Ham-lin. It’s a really cool campus as long as you don’t mind a snowy winter visit. 😊
I had no idea low residency programs existed, I always assumed MFAs were predominantly in person and nothing else so I hadn’t looked much into them. Looks like I have some research to do now!
The timing of this video is kind of ironic for me as I'm currently waiting on hearing back on my MFA applications. Your channel inspired me to pursue writing to a higher degree, and I know I personally need that kick in the pants to actually complete a manuscript. As an Iowa resident, I've grown up around several people who have participated in the writer's workshop and had the opportunity to go with a teacher in high school (which I regret turning down 6 years later. Holy moly was that a mistake). I wasn't really familiar with the concept of low-residency schools, but that's definitely something to look at now. Thanks for the video!
I’m working on my MFA right now, but only because I work in higher ed and I can get my degree for free due to tuition benefits (though it will take me a bit longer to do it for free). If it wasn’t free I probably wouldn’t pay for an MFA, but I am enjoying the program. Having the space to workshop new genres or writing experiments has been incredibly useful.
Oh, one thing that is helpful about most MFA programs (including mine) is that they often include courses on the business of writing. Usually these help you learn how to market your work, navigate the publishing world, drafting query letters, etc.
In addition to all the reasons you listed, I'm pursuing an MFA to get my foot in the industry, so to speak. I want to learn the ins and outs of writing so I can work as an editor someday. It's also why I'm taking time off to write, because several MFAs and scholarships I saw asked for a portfolio with my application. Thank you for such an informative video! I'll keep this in mind while I continue looking through my options 😊
Have you considered a certificate program in publishing instead? The one at Columbia is highly respected and considered a direct pipeline to jobs in the industry. It's less than 10K and only takes part of a summer to complete.
University teaching is a pretty amazing career. I'd recommend it ;)! I do keep playing with the idea of doing a writing postgrad even though I already have too many postgrad degrees. Actually going to a university open day soon. Since I have a strong leaning towards the literary side of things it seems to make a certain amount of sense, but as of right now I'm undecided if the sense it makes equals the money it costs.
Honestly, I think attempting to get an MFA would completely suck the joy out of writing for me. I already got a bachelor's degree in subjects I felt I needed at the time, and while I did learn what I needed from it, the whole process was so gosh darned stressful that by the time I graduated I was DONE with college. It's been 5 years and I'm STILL DONE with college, not to mention there's so many amazing free or less-expensive-that-a-degree resources online these days that won't suck up 4 or more years of my life that I can't get back. I mainly watched this video because you, Alexa, are always so interesting and informative on every subject, and because my dad's anxiety issues sometimes make him get fixated on irrational things, including pressuring me to get extra degrees I don't need for reasons that aren't rational. If he should ever try to pressure me to get an MFA or any other kind of degree because he up and decides I'll have to have it to get published, I want to be able to make a solid argument as to why I do not need it, don't want it, and I'm not going to get one.
i’ve been beating myself up on not being able to afford New School lately. i could barely afford undergrad, and i went to a CUNY school that’s nowhere near as expensive as other schools in the country. i studied english lit, but only got to take 2 creative classes and didn’t get much out of them as i’d hoped. i guess every once in a while i feel as though i really missed out on that community of writers, especially with genre/YA fiction in mind. i have no idea where to find that in person outside of a degree lol. so i’m glad you made this video. it’s a nice reminder from someone outside my own head that i don’t need to plunge myself into debt for something i ultimately don’t need
Online communities! It's not easy or automatic but you can find those communities/tools online. Do you have a complete MS? If so, have you looked at AMM?
I'm in the camp that if I ever wanted to teach on the high school or college level, I'd go get an MFA. But I also know of some artists who have been hired based of their expertise in the field, who did not have a master's degree or some other higher degree. For now, I still get to do a lot of teaching (dance, movement, theatre, improvisation), based on my training, experience and my undergrad degree in Theatre Arts.
I worked my way through college. No debt that way. And I took Branden Sanderson's classes on line. You can take loads of on line classes on line for free. So learning does not have to be so expensive.
If you pursued teaching, would you be forced to teach literary fiction, or could you teach on writing commercial fiction? I'd love to do some kind of post-secondary education related to books and writing for fun but can't afford to do it just for fun (when I couldn't guarantee an income out of it). I think the most practical thing I could do would be just a certificate program in editing (about 8,000 over two-three years of part time education). I'm also married and planning on having kids soon... doesn't leave a lot of time for an education on top of parenting full time and working full time. It makes me feel better knowing it's not a necessity to publish. I did do a few creative writing courses in college, which I benefitted greatly from. If someone is curious for it, I recommend finding a writing course at a local community college for about $200-$300 dollars and doing even just the one class. It's not gonna unlock a super perfect writer out of you or anything, but it gets you used to workshopping your writing, gets you connected with other writers and forces you to write.
I don’t have an MFA and I have no idea if I would get one. There is a Podcast called 88 cups of tea that has on a lot for writers that get there MFAs. If you want hear from people that have them. It’s not a should you get a MFA podcast but the network of the host is in that community. It’s also just really good and talks about diversity in the industry and literary fiction stuff.
I’m doing an MA in English and creative writing from SNHU. I am planning to reapply for their MFA program after I finish my first three courses (which happen to fit in with the MFA). I am torn about whether I should continue if I don’t make it into the MFA program. Also, I didn’t look very long or hard at different schools before committing to this program, so I’m unsure about it. I do know that I am learning a lot and I am enjoying it very much! That might be enough, especially since I am currently childless, and I think education is something worth going into debt for! But this video is making me think… Thank you so much for your perspective!
I loved my MFA in part because it’s a 3 year program. I was able to dedicate my 3rd year entirely to my thesis project instead of having to complete course credits on top of it. It was the SIU at Carbondale program for Poetry, btw. 10/10, would recommend :)
With teaching, I would only suggest it as something you do on the side, maybe taking a class or two a semester. It is definitely not a stable career, especially for creative writing. I have an MA in English Literature, with five years experience teaching college composition, and a lot of university work is in adjuncting (part-time teaching, even if you teach a full-time course load).
Wow, this info is spot on!! I actually got my MFA from NYU (my focus was poetry), and everything you said was accurate. I got it when I was really young (22) bc I didn’t know what to do after undergrad. I think it has opened doors for sure, especially bc I currently work as a teacher, but in terms of helping me get published... that’s debatable. That being said, I really want to be a professor one day, so having this degree will help me meet that requirement. Overall, this advice is so good, and I wish I had heard it before I got mine 9 years ago 😂.
Thank you for your video, Alexa. You give lots of valuable information. I've got a question that is totally unrelated to the topic, but I'll be really grateful if you answered it. How big are the chances of a person who is not a native speaker of English and lives abroad, but is writing in English, to be published in the USA? What do they need to do to improve those chances? (MFA is not an option - it's way too expensive for them)
I’m getting my bachelors’ now, and I’m honestly so sick of school that I don’t intend to go back anytime soon. I might get my MFA later on down the line if I have the time and money, though. Great video!
The main reason I'm thinking of getting an MFA is because I want to become a really, really good writer. The price is pretty shocking so I don't know when I'll be able to do it, but we'll see.
I looked into a program a favorite of mine went to and balked at the cost and logistics. 2 weeks off from work a year? Ahahahhaha... But if it was something within my reach financially I would do it in a heartbeat. I love learning and I strongly suspect the connections are invaluable assets to have.
I have a Bachelor of Arts degree in Creative Writing, and I have to admit, it was kind of pointless. And I say that as someone who actually enjoyed my time in college and who got a good job because of my degree. The reason why I still say that the BA CW was a little bit of a miss is that a lot of the things I learn about the craft of writing were things I learned on my own. My program focused heavily on the theoretical side of writing (e.g. literary criticism, history of genres, the evolution of literature and literary standards, etc.) instead of the actual craft. So though I learned a lot while in school, I learned about plot structure, pacing, and whatnot on my own. That's why I'm now a little iffy encouraging people to pursue higher education in Creative Writing. People can still choose to, if they want to, of course. But they have to really mull over it for a long period of time. Additionally, while I was still in school, one of my professors was actually strongly against pursuing an MA/MFA in Creative Writing. His reasoning is that we already took BA; if we want to take a master's degree, we might as well study something else other than writing. In his words, "hone your writing skills in a different field." Somehow, that suggestion stuck with me, and I feel like I might actually take that advice. 😊
I said this in the poll post, but I don't think getting an MFA is worth it. My friend did an MFA at Manchester University(in England) in novel writing and it cost a lot of money and he's been an adjunct professor for 10 years. He's moved into a more administrative role now with the Alumni association but the MFA hasn't helped him at all. He published a book with a small press. It was a really bad experience and the press has gone out of business. Honestly, unless you're going to go for a doctorate degree after the MFA, which is more money on that, it's hard to get a full-time professorship so really you're just setting your self back for a piece of paper.
Getting an MFA seems to be a controversial topic, but I so appreciate your advice and insight. Along the same lines - what are your thoughts about Publishing Certificates? I’ve heard those can be helpful in providing more info about the industry.
I've been considering this question seriously for the past year, and I'm still undecided. I teach full time (NYC public school, grades 6-8, social studies) and I've been feeling completely burned out. I'm so exhausted that I can't write consistently anymore, which makes me even more burned out because my mental/emotional health has plummeted from the lack of writing. The escapist in me looking for a way out sparked an interest in returning to school, and getting an MFA as opposed to a degree in educational administration really appeals to me... BUT I don't know if I wanna make such a risky investment :'(
I think maybe if you think of it as a personal and emotional investment (for your creativity & writing time) rather than a monetary investment might help? No guarantee you'll end up rich b/c of an MFA, but it may restore some of your creative space?
@@AlexaDonne You know what, I've never thought of thinking of this as an emotional investment at all, and it does change my perspective once I take that angle. It's shocking how much I hesitate doing anything for my emotional well-being. (Though, most people nowadays, I feel, don't actively contribute towards their own emotional develop; or if they do, there's always an element of guilt associated with it). Now I just need to figure out if its worth putting my teaching career on hold to pursue an MFA... Not sure if I can do both at this stage, haha. I've never been good at time management. Thanks for your reply!
I attended the Stonecoast MFA program at the University of Southern Maine. It's a low-residency, studio-focused MFA program. It was (at the time that I was looking for grad programs) the only MFA I found that had a concentration specifically in spec/genre/popular fiction. Is it required? No. Could I have learned everything on my own? Yes. Would I trade those two years for the world? Absolutely not. But I do also intend to eventually teach with it, so I would have wanted to get it eventually, anyway!
So I wanted to get an English MFA, but it just wasn't worth it to me in the end. Plus, I went to get an MFA in history and currently working on a history Ph.D. That said, I did take advantage of my undergrad electives to take creative writing courses and a vampire literature class that really helped my writing. So if you're still working on your bachelor's and have some electives to spare, I'd highly recommend using them for creative writing courses so you can at least get some of the experience/benefits of an MFA.
43K of debt. Room & board + some student fees. 12-15K per year. It's really rare to get a full ride that covers room & board--but frankly getting 30K of tuition each year for free was pretty good. I was also an RA my senior year to reduce costs.
So minor detail from a local (I live 10 min away and used to work on campus). Hamline (for no logical reason) is pronounced Ham-Lin, not Ham-Line. No way you could have known that from how it's spelled, but just fyi :) Love the videos - thanks for all that you do!
@@AlexaDonne No idea -- I was thinking how weird it was given the spelling and went to go double-check in one of their marketing videos to make sure it wasn't me mis-remembering :)
I think budding writers could learn writing craft without an MFA and save their money. A writer spending on an MFA does not sound like a business decision (unless they are pursuing teaching), but more of an emotional decision. Of course, emotional decisions are not necessarily bad ones.
...no lollllllll. I'm getting a bachelors in creative writing but tbh MFA is kind of a money grab but I can see how it makes your profile more dynamic for the writing field. It also depends on how much you practice your writing on your own.
Since you're a published author with a few books, you could make school visits. You wouldn't need an MFA to talk to children about your books and writing.
Brandon Sanderson is constantly telling a story about how he got rejected from many MFA programs when he used what was later published as 'Elantris' for his applications.
I am going to take a different tact on this topic so I hope I do not offend anyone, least of all Alexa. College and Universities, do not teach you anything. They teach you how to learn and to teach yourself. The process of the scientific principle is instilled in you and you are made aware of resources that you might not become aware of otherwise. But, there are millions every year that go to college or university thinking that they will come out with their brain full of new skills and ability by virtue of having attended and gotten an A in a class. That is not what these places of higher learning do and that is a bit of a surprise, because Primary and Secondary schools do those very things for the basics of literacy and mathematics. But, skills are learned in Trade Schools, not college or universities. Scientific institutions like an Engineering School will teach you. It might be called a college or university but it is a Trade School. Nursing is another example as is accounting or hospitality or architectural design. The list is long, but these places are not colleges or universities. The general university or college is not going to teach you a skill or a trade; it will teach you how to develop that ability so you can teach yourself that skill or trade - ONCE YOU GET HIRED. Far too many people go to college or university when they should be attending a trade school. As for grades in these places, today's A's are yesterday's C's, and those same C's were failing grades in the 1970's and early 1980's.
I would have loved to pursue an MFA, but it wasn’t in the cards financially. Honestly, though, I feel like I’ve learned so much studying craft and technique on my own. No regrets! There are many paths to excellence.
This is one of the best channels for writing. Such clear and transparent content! Thanks Alexa.
I got an MFA in Creative Nonfiction. I spent about 30K, but I feel like it will be worth having the degree for when I'm ready to query my first manuscript. My BFF and I went through the same program and it was really nice having that sense of community of writers to support you--even though I'm not really in touch with most of the people from my MFA program, I know that we are and will be cheering each other on in the years to come. It cost me about $35K, which I paid for with my full time job and I actually found it quite doable. Don't go into debt for it, pay cash if you can or wait until you've saved enough. But beware, there can be a lot of toxicity in these programs as well--especially for writers of color.
I've heard about the toxicity thing on these courses before, despite knowing very little about them. What do you think is the cause or the main problem? (I'm in the UK, English/female/white)
I just want to say that I explicitly opted to NOT go to grad school after I got my bachelor's degree because I a) didn't know what I wanted to study and b) knew that the only reason I was thinking about it was to avoid having to figure out a job after I graduated. I am very grateful I did not take on that debt.
While I don’t plan to go for MFA, I could see myself going for the community and the focused writing time. I love being surrounded by people, especially those who share my passion, and I hate how little I write currently
I just graduated from the University of Southern Maine's Stonecoast program which has a Popular Fiction specialization (basically all SFF + mystery + MG & YA)--it's in the Top 4 low-residency MFAs in the country and the PopFic specialization is AMAZING. Definitely great on the community aspect and my writing improved so much throughout my time. It's one of the programs that isn't uber competitive and there's a lot of collaboration between the PopFic, LitFic, and CNF writers. Plus (biggest plus) is that it's way less expensive than, say VCFA. Only about $30,000 TOTAL for the 2 years. Still not cheap, but much more doable.
You would be a great teacher! You already are! We are your students lol 📚
Applied to Hamline after watching this video and I got into their MFA program straight out of undergrad! I'm so incredibly thankful you put this out there because otherwise I would have given up on grad school altogether. Thank you so much Alexa!
Two years later, and today I graduated. It's crazy to think how much one TH-cam video changed my life. Thank you so much.
...Man, I'm just feeling really grateful I'm Australian. Total cost of my Master of Creative Writing - $20,800. Total amount can be put on HECS debt (Higher Education Contribution Scheme), don't have to start paying back until you're earning over $45k a year. This is true for all Australian citizens and permanent residents at public unis in Australia, incidentally. And it can be done completely online - there are on-campus days, but they're optional, and you can do them full time or part time.
So if this is something that is available to you, then I absolutely recommend it. I haven't just got some amazing experience in workshopping, but the actual classes, the readings, stuff like that - it's stuff I'm going to be using throughout my entire career. It is absolutely possible to learn similar stuff on your own, but not gonna lie, it could be harder, just getting access to all the resources (being able to access academic writing through the uni, access to staff, access to other writers to workshop with, stuff like that).
But yeah, the cost of those courses in America... yeesh. I can 100% understand why people might be turned off doing them!
One thing I may add, most academic based MFAs or at least many offer teaching assistants w/ partial to full funding (I did not pay for my degree) . That said they can be hard to get into & it isn't for everyone
That's a very good point! Generally an advantage of any academic masters program b/c teaching assistantship is the norm to help off-set costs.
@@AlexaDonne Thanks so much for responding. Btw I really loved the video because it was a side I was less familiar with and I love your channel in general :)
I earned my MFA from Hollins University in Roanoke, VA. It's a quieter area of the country with a relatively low cost of living. They have a general lit MFA (high residency) and one focused on children's lit (classes in the summers, I think?). I did the general lit MFA. It's a tiny program--12 students admitted per year--and everyone receives full tuition remission, which is HUGE. But that also means it's harder to get into.
Cost was a huge factor when I was applying to MFA programs, so I only allowed myself to look at programs that provided full funding. They do exist, but they are harder to get into. I absolutely agree with your assessment that MFA programs skew toward the literary; even programs that are open to genre or commercial fiction still have their biases. Hollins is open to all genres (in fact, one of my classmates wrote a sci-fi novel for her thesis), but most of the faculty's knowledge was in the literary realm and so they didn't always know how to support her...
I've only heard good things about Hollins' children's lit program, though I can't speak for the nitty-gritties of its structure/cost because I didn't attend myself. Thanks for making such helpful videos! :)
You should sign off your videos with, "and now I'm Donne"!
Lol!
I don't have an mfa but I use my other college degrees in physics engineering biology, chemistry, history, theology, psychology, and others to make my world building more believable. It helps the audience become fully immersed in in the stories. And once they are drawn into the stories and the worlds writers create in fantasy and sci-fi they want to see more. You do not have to have an actual degree but it helps if you have a practical or working knowledge of the subjects you write about.
I've just passed my viva for my creative writing PhD (!!!) at the University of Kent, and there's certainly a lot of truth in this. I knew going into the programme that it wasn't "necessary". But I also knew, and have known since I was a child, that writing is my whole world. And I've always known that, while I desperately want to be published, the thing I want more than anything is to be a great writer. Between wanting a way out of the country and wanting access to intense and excellent mentorship, it felt like the right call. (Un)luckily, I was so in debt from undergrad and my overseas MA the exorbitant cost was basically irrelevant. Every second was agony (the pressure and the guilt and the imposter syndrome are off the scales) but now that I'm done I'm so glad I did it.
I should also add: I went into that programme thinking that I knew how to write and that I was a decent writer.Turns out I didn't, and I wasn't. I'm much more confident and skilled now as a result of that rigorous focus and mentorship. While I wouldn't recommend postgrad writing programmes to anyone because it has ruined my mental, physical, and financial health, if drastically improving your craft is that important to you it is an excellent bootcamp.
I have an MFA and it's great if you want to develop skills in critiquing and to give yourself time to write. You can make connections that may raise you to the top of the slush pile, but it won't get you published on association alone. It's great if you want to dedicate yourself to writing for a period of time because it's a great, positive atmosphere. It also can net you the experience and degree you need to teach college. I loved my experience and know it made me better, but it's not the only way to get better. I would also not go into debt for it. I was lucky to go to a well funded program so it was worthwhile for me.
I did an MA in Creative Writing (in the UK) and while it didn't teach me the mechanics of writing, it helped me learn how to write a story. It helped me stay accountable and get into the habit of writing. The workshopping was invaluable. Through editing other peoples work I learned how to look out for similar things in my own work. I also made friends for life on that course.
But, I don't think it's necessary. For me, who had no idea where to start, it was something I sorely needed. Ultimately the choice is up to you. They are for sure valuable, but at the end of the day, it's still up to you and your determination.
Which one did you do in the UK? I know a few people who did MAs over there!
@@AlexaDonne Oh, really?? I did mine at Bath Spa University. i really enjoyed it and learned a lot. We also had the chance to put an anthology together which was really invaluable
Alexa , you are so sweet ! Thanks so much for existing
This was so helpful to hear! And actually, I am just finishing up my BFA in creative writing and last year, I applied for an MFA program and they were willing to pay for my entire degree if I agreed to teach a course (which I would be a paid a stipend for). So those exist. But I had to find my own housing down there and it was a big choice I ultimately decided against. It was literary fiction and I wasn’t sure I was even ready for it.
Everything is so ridiculously expensive in the USA, sheesh.
I am in the last year of my MFA in Creative Writing program - big picture - no I don't need it. I went back for a master's in publishing and the MFA was only 6 more classes. I'll graduate with 2 degrees and a manuscript...so...I THINK it's a win. But I enjoyed both programs and learned a ton.
When I was in my teens and early twenties I truly believed that MFAs were the be all and end all for writers. That belief ended after I got into my 20s and met a few writers that didn't go through it. I've met people who have their MFA and haven't written anything or they haven't gotten any work with an MFA. I have learned that reading novels of different genres and committing myself to a writing plan has been essential to being a writer. Its taken me around 6 to 7 years to be comfortable with my writing voice and style. I'm currently working on a book.
I never planned on doing an MFA program, starting my college career with going into musical performance, MFA felt like a similar program that really didn't need to be used unless you wanted to teach. I can see where they can come in handy, but it's a huge relief that I don't have to go for one.
I did want to say, I finished 'The Stars We Steal' and man my feels need some time, I loved it!
I'm so glad you enjoyed it! I'm so nervous to see what people think. I know some readers expected more sci-fi but it's like... unabashedly 100% a HEA romance.
@@AlexaDonne With Brightly Burning coming before this and the pitch line of 'Batchelor In Space' I was hoping it was going to be a fun heart wrenching romance. Thank you for delivering on that! This reads like a smarter (like WAY smarter) 'The Elite' but in space. I am so excited to see what 'The Iveys' is like!
There is soooooo much information about writing craft, also online classes, workshops, and groups. If you are serious about being a writer and have the discipline you can do it without the degree.
Love the video!!! Also I just wanted to say that your eye makeup today is GLORIOUS
I got mine at Seton Hill University (in Greensburg, Pennsylvania). Two-year MFA program in Writing Popular Fiction---students focus on writing in a specific genre: Horror, SciFi, Romance (mine), YA/Children's, Mystery, etc. The romance novel I wrote as my master's thesis was my first (traditionally) published novel.
I'm in the process of getting an MFA from Naropa University in Boulder CO, and the biggest reason was that I haven't had any confidence in my writing up til now. It's creative writing & poetics (very literary fiction oriented) but what I've really felt stronger about is the way I see my commercially leaning prose start to just... tighten, and get stronger, and I can really narrow in on how to make my betas have the feels I'm going for. It's also been really good about the idea of what kind of publishing schedules I want to look at in future, and figure out where I can diversify income even just in writing (without considering teaching, which is a whole other thing). Naropa also really considers social justice and ways to try to promote less-heard stories at the same time as finding my own, and I have found letterpress printing which is probably my next great love in life. It's *really* pricey though, and that has been a concern. I'm glad I've been able to go, because I think I've just done some very accelerated growth, but the price tag is still a real issue that I wish was something that limited fewer people wanting to learn...
Just an FYI from a Minnesotan - in my experience I’ve always heard it pronounced Ham-lin. It’s a really cool campus as long as you don’t mind a snowy winter visit. 😊
I had no idea low residency programs existed, I always assumed MFAs were predominantly in person and nothing else so I hadn’t looked much into them. Looks like I have some research to do now!
The timing of this video is kind of ironic for me as I'm currently waiting on hearing back on my MFA applications. Your channel inspired me to pursue writing to a higher degree, and I know I personally need that kick in the pants to actually complete a manuscript. As an Iowa resident, I've grown up around several people who have participated in the writer's workshop and had the opportunity to go with a teacher in high school (which I regret turning down 6 years later. Holy moly was that a mistake). I wasn't really familiar with the concept of low-residency schools, but that's definitely something to look at now. Thanks for the video!
Good luck with your applications!!!
I’m working on my MFA right now, but only because I work in higher ed and I can get my degree for free due to tuition benefits (though it will take me a bit longer to do it for free). If it wasn’t free I probably wouldn’t pay for an MFA, but I am enjoying the program. Having the space to workshop new genres or writing experiments has been incredibly useful.
Oh, one thing that is helpful about most MFA programs (including mine) is that they often include courses on the business of writing. Usually these help you learn how to market your work, navigate the publishing world, drafting query letters, etc.
In addition to all the reasons you listed, I'm pursuing an MFA to get my foot in the industry, so to speak. I want to learn the ins and outs of writing so I can work as an editor someday. It's also why I'm taking time off to write, because several MFAs and scholarships I saw asked for a portfolio with my application.
Thank you for such an informative video! I'll keep this in mind while I continue looking through my options 😊
Have you considered a certificate program in publishing instead? The one at Columbia is highly respected and considered a direct pipeline to jobs in the industry. It's less than 10K and only takes part of a summer to complete.
@@AlexaDonne oh, I didn't know about those. Thanks so much! I'll look into it 😊
University teaching is a pretty amazing career. I'd recommend it ;)! I do keep playing with the idea of doing a writing postgrad even though I already have too many postgrad degrees. Actually going to a university open day soon. Since I have a strong leaning towards the literary side of things it seems to make a certain amount of sense, but as of right now I'm undecided if the sense it makes equals the money it costs.
Honestly, I think attempting to get an MFA would completely suck the joy out of writing for me. I already got a bachelor's degree in subjects I felt I needed at the time, and while I did learn what I needed from it, the whole process was so gosh darned stressful that by the time I graduated I was DONE with college. It's been 5 years and I'm STILL DONE with college, not to mention there's so many amazing free or less-expensive-that-a-degree resources online these days that won't suck up 4 or more years of my life that I can't get back. I mainly watched this video because you, Alexa, are always so interesting and informative on every subject, and because my dad's anxiety issues sometimes make him get fixated on irrational things, including pressuring me to get extra degrees I don't need for reasons that aren't rational. If he should ever try to pressure me to get an MFA or any other kind of degree because he up and decides I'll have to have it to get published, I want to be able to make a solid argument as to why I do not need it, don't want it, and I'm not going to get one.
i’ve been beating myself up on not being able to afford New School lately. i could barely afford undergrad, and i went to a CUNY school that’s nowhere near as expensive as other schools in the country. i studied english lit, but only got to take 2 creative classes and didn’t get much out of them as i’d hoped. i guess every once in a while i feel as though i really missed out on that community of writers, especially with genre/YA fiction in mind. i have no idea where to find that in person outside of a degree lol. so i’m glad you made this video. it’s a nice reminder from someone outside my own head that i don’t need to plunge myself into debt for something i ultimately don’t need
Online communities! It's not easy or automatic but you can find those communities/tools online. Do you have a complete MS? If so, have you looked at AMM?
not yet, but i’ve got my eye on it for when the time comes!
I'm in the camp that if I ever wanted to teach on the high school or college level, I'd go get an MFA. But I also know of some artists who have been hired based of their expertise in the field, who did not have a master's degree or some other higher degree. For now, I still get to do a lot of teaching (dance, movement, theatre, improvisation), based on my training, experience and my undergrad degree in Theatre Arts.
I worked my way through college. No debt that way. And I took Branden Sanderson's classes on line. You can take loads of on line classes on line for free. So learning does not have to be so expensive.
You should definitely consider converting your vids to podcast really great to listen to
If you pursued teaching, would you be forced to teach literary fiction, or could you teach on writing commercial fiction?
I'd love to do some kind of post-secondary education related to books and writing for fun but can't afford to do it just for fun (when I couldn't guarantee an income out of it). I think the most practical thing I could do would be just a certificate program in editing (about 8,000 over two-three years of part time education). I'm also married and planning on having kids soon... doesn't leave a lot of time for an education on top of parenting full time and working full time.
It makes me feel better knowing it's not a necessity to publish. I did do a few creative writing courses in college, which I benefitted greatly from. If someone is curious for it, I recommend finding a writing course at a local community college for about $200-$300 dollars and doing even just the one class. It's not gonna unlock a super perfect writer out of you or anything, but it gets you used to workshopping your writing, gets you connected with other writers and forces you to write.
I don’t have an MFA and I have no idea if I would get one. There is a Podcast called 88 cups of tea that has on a lot for writers that get there MFAs. If you want hear from people that have them. It’s not a should you get a MFA podcast but the network of the host is in that community. It’s also just really good and talks about diversity in the industry and literary fiction stuff.
I love 88 Cups of Tea. It's so inspiring and Yin Chang is awesome.
I’m doing an MA in English and creative writing from SNHU. I am planning to reapply for their MFA program after I finish my first three courses (which happen to fit in with the MFA). I am torn about whether I should continue if I don’t make it into the MFA program. Also, I didn’t look very long or hard at different schools before committing to this program, so I’m unsure about it. I do know that I am learning a lot and I am enjoying it very much! That might be enough, especially since I am currently childless, and I think education is something worth going into debt for! But this video is making me think… Thank you so much for your perspective!
I loved my MFA in part because it’s a 3 year program. I was able to dedicate my 3rd year entirely to my thesis project instead of having to complete course credits on top of it. It was the SIU at Carbondale program for Poetry, btw. 10/10, would recommend :)
I went there too!! For fiction!
@@vestycakes Oh my gosh hi!!!! :D
With teaching, I would only suggest it as something you do on the side, maybe taking a class or two a semester. It is definitely not a stable career, especially for creative writing. I have an MA in English Literature, with five years experience teaching college composition, and a lot of university work is in adjuncting (part-time teaching, even if you teach a full-time course load).
Loving your videos this year - so relevant and informative. And entertaining as usual. :)
Wow, this info is spot on!! I actually got my MFA from NYU (my focus was poetry), and everything you said was accurate. I got it when I was really young (22) bc I didn’t know what to do after undergrad. I think it has opened doors for sure, especially bc I currently work as a teacher, but in terms of helping me get published... that’s debatable. That being said, I really want to be a professor one day, so having this degree will help me meet that requirement.
Overall, this advice is so good, and I wish I had heard it before I got mine 9 years ago 😂.
Thank you for your video, Alexa. You give lots of valuable information. I've got a question that is totally unrelated to the topic, but I'll be really grateful if you answered it.
How big are the chances of a person who is not a native speaker of English and lives abroad, but is writing in English, to be published in the USA? What do they need to do to improve those chances? (MFA is not an option - it's way too expensive for them)
I’m getting my bachelors’ now, and I’m honestly so sick of school that I don’t intend to go back anytime soon. I might get my MFA later on down the line if I have the time and money, though. Great video!
Hi Alexa, can you make. Video explains what and how to Nanowrimo? (thank you!)
I've thought about getting an mfa but the expense is definitely holding me back. I might still do it after I pay off my bachelor's.
The main reason I'm thinking of getting an MFA is because I want to become a really, really good writer. The price is pretty shocking so I don't know when I'll be able to do it, but we'll see.
I looked into a program a favorite of mine went to and balked at the cost and logistics. 2 weeks off from work a year? Ahahahhaha...
But if it was something within my reach financially I would do it in a heartbeat. I love learning and I strongly suspect the connections are invaluable assets to have.
I'm pursuing my MFA in creative writing.
Sonya Madden get out now while you can. MFA's are completely pointless.
Good luck! Hope you enjoy the program.
I have a Bachelor of Arts degree in Creative Writing, and I have to admit, it was kind of pointless. And I say that as someone who actually enjoyed my time in college and who got a good job because of my degree. The reason why I still say that the BA CW was a little bit of a miss is that a lot of the things I learn about the craft of writing were things I learned on my own. My program focused heavily on the theoretical side of writing (e.g. literary criticism, history of genres, the evolution of literature and literary standards, etc.) instead of the actual craft. So though I learned a lot while in school, I learned about plot structure, pacing, and whatnot on my own. That's why I'm now a little iffy encouraging people to pursue higher education in Creative Writing. People can still choose to, if they want to, of course. But they have to really mull over it for a long period of time.
Additionally, while I was still in school, one of my professors was actually strongly against pursuing an MA/MFA in Creative Writing. His reasoning is that we already took BA; if we want to take a master's degree, we might as well study something else other than writing. In his words, "hone your writing skills in a different field." Somehow, that suggestion stuck with me, and I feel like I might actually take that advice. 😊
Thank you very much for one more helpful video!
I said this in the poll post, but I don't think getting an MFA is worth it. My friend did an MFA at Manchester University(in England) in novel writing and it cost a lot of money and he's been an adjunct professor for 10 years. He's moved into a more administrative role now with the Alumni association but the MFA hasn't helped him at all.
He published a book with a small press. It was a really bad experience and the press has gone out of business.
Honestly, unless you're going to go for a doctorate degree after the MFA, which is more money on that, it's hard to get a full-time professorship so really you're just setting your self back for a piece of paper.
What about local MFA programs at state universities? I'm thinking University of Nevada Reno if I go.
Getting an MFA seems to be a controversial topic, but I so appreciate your advice and insight.
Along the same lines - what are your thoughts about Publishing Certificates? I’ve heard those can be helpful in providing more info about the industry.
I write commercial fantasy. I need an MFA about as much as a rapper needs a degree in classical music.
So what I'm hearing is you have to get an MFA to be published.
Kidding!
I've been considering this question seriously for the past year, and I'm still undecided. I teach full time (NYC public school, grades 6-8, social studies) and I've been feeling completely burned out. I'm so exhausted that I can't write consistently anymore, which makes me even more burned out because my mental/emotional health has plummeted from the lack of writing. The escapist in me looking for a way out sparked an interest in returning to school, and getting an MFA as opposed to a degree in educational administration really appeals to me... BUT I don't know if I wanna make such a risky investment :'(
I think maybe if you think of it as a personal and emotional investment (for your creativity & writing time) rather than a monetary investment might help? No guarantee you'll end up rich b/c of an MFA, but it may restore some of your creative space?
@@AlexaDonne You know what, I've never thought of thinking of this as an emotional investment at all, and it does change my perspective once I take that angle. It's shocking how much I hesitate doing anything for my emotional well-being. (Though, most people nowadays, I feel, don't actively contribute towards their own emotional develop; or if they do, there's always an element of guilt associated with it).
Now I just need to figure out if its worth putting my teaching career on hold to pursue an MFA... Not sure if I can do both at this stage, haha. I've never been good at time management.
Thanks for your reply!
I attended the Stonecoast MFA program at the University of Southern Maine. It's a low-residency, studio-focused MFA program. It was (at the time that I was looking for grad programs) the only MFA I found that had a concentration specifically in spec/genre/popular fiction.
Is it required? No. Could I have learned everything on my own? Yes. Would I trade those two years for the world? Absolutely not. But I do also intend to eventually teach with it, so I would have wanted to get it eventually, anyway!
Hey Ash! Just got into Stonecoast! Excited and nervous
@@brenda136661 You'll have a fantastic time!! If you get the chance, take a workshop with Mike Kimball and or Nancy Holder. I loved them both!
So I wanted to get an English MFA, but it just wasn't worth it to me in the end. Plus, I went to get an MFA in history and currently working on a history Ph.D. That said, I did take advantage of my undergrad electives to take creative writing courses and a vampire literature class that really helped my writing. So if you're still working on your bachelor's and have some electives to spare, I'd highly recommend using them for creative writing courses so you can at least get some of the experience/benefits of an MFA.
How did you get $30,000 in debt for your degree when you had a full tuition scholarship? I don't understand that.
43K of debt. Room & board + some student fees. 12-15K per year. It's really rare to get a full ride that covers room & board--but frankly getting 30K of tuition each year for free was pretty good. I was also an RA my senior year to reduce costs.
So minor detail from a local (I live 10 min away and used to work on campus). Hamline (for no logical reason) is pronounced Ham-Lin, not Ham-Line. No way you could have known that from how it's spelled, but just fyi :)
Love the videos - thanks for all that you do!
Lol that's funny. Thanks for letting me know :) I wonder why?
@@AlexaDonne No idea -- I was thinking how weird it was given the spelling and went to go double-check in one of their marketing videos to make sure it wasn't me mis-remembering :)
It’s sad that finances are the ultimate factor in doing grad school period.
I think budding writers could learn writing craft without an MFA and save their money. A writer spending on an MFA does not sound like a business decision (unless they are pursuing teaching), but more of an emotional decision. Of course, emotional decisions are not necessarily bad ones.
I have looked at so many Master's programs, including an MFA, because I just love school. But even "cheaper" programs are $$$$.
You know how to ease my sorry soul. :)
...no lollllllll. I'm getting a bachelors in creative writing but tbh MFA is kind of a money grab but I can see how it makes your profile more dynamic for the writing field. It also depends on how much you practice your writing on your own.
Since you're a published author with a few books, you could make school visits. You wouldn't need an MFA to talk to children about your books and writing.
There are fully funded writing programs that are free and give you a stipend on top of it. Check it out on poets and writers
Brandon Sanderson is constantly telling a story about how he got rejected from many MFA programs when he used what was later published as 'Elantris' for his applications.
"Plenty of peers from her MFA programme who aren't doing the work" *****
*Looks at my MFA in poetry* *Looks at the fact I've not gotten a poem published in a large magazine.* What an absurd premise. Of course you don't.
MFA sounds like pay to win
For certain genres, absolutely. (Literary fiction)
I am going to take a different tact on this topic so I hope I do not offend anyone, least of all Alexa.
College and Universities, do not teach you anything. They teach you how to learn and to teach yourself. The process of the scientific principle is instilled in you and you are made aware of resources that you might not become aware of otherwise. But, there are millions every year that go to college or university thinking that they will come out with their brain full of new skills and ability by virtue of having attended and gotten an A in a class.
That is not what these places of higher learning do and that is a bit of a surprise, because Primary and Secondary schools do those very things for the basics of literacy and mathematics. But, skills are learned in Trade Schools, not college or universities. Scientific institutions like an Engineering School will teach you. It might be called a college or university but it is a Trade School. Nursing is another example as is accounting or hospitality or architectural design. The list is long, but these places are not colleges or universities.
The general university or college is not going to teach you a skill or a trade; it will teach you how to develop that ability so you can teach yourself that skill or trade - ONCE YOU GET HIRED. Far too many people go to college or university when they should be attending a trade school. As for grades in these places, today's A's are yesterday's C's, and those same C's were failing grades in the 1970's and early 1980's.