Mace or sword | the better weapon against armor (with
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 มิ.ย. 2024
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Many people claim under my videos that maces, warhammers and axes are more effective than swords against armor. In the video of Matt Easton argues that maces are easier to use than swords only when it comes to armored combat. I disagree to that statement and i wanna share with you some points about maces and swords in armored knight fights.
The original video from Matt Easton of scholagladiatoria: • Is a medieval MACE eas...
Timestamps
0:00 - Intro
0:20 - the statement of scholagladiatoria
1:17 - maces in unarmored combat
2:56 - mace as a shorter weapon
3:27 - swordblade in armored fights
3:38 - blocking swords and maces
4:23 - the only target of a mace
4:50 - Matts problem with swords against armor
5:39 - maces and swords in buhurt
8:02 - how to kill an armored opponent
8:41 - difficulty of the long guard
9:15 - maces for knockouts and capture knight
11:01 - The difficulty to hit the target and defence yourself
14:56 - maces vs joints of armor
15:40 - close combat with maces and warhammers
16:40 - striking power of swords and maces
18:17 - conclusions and disagreements - harder to use in combat
19:45 - outro - กีฬา
Hey Dequitem! Thanks for the video response and the great videos. I'm looking to lots more.
I guess the main question coming out of this video then is: why use a mace (or axe or warhammer)? What advantage do you think they offer? I have some ideas, and maybe I'll put this into a video.
A point I would specifically respond to is about the use of falchions in buhurt: unfortunately, their falchions are very unlike actual historical falchions. What they use in buhurt, in terms of weight distribution, is really more like a mace IMHO. Every original 13th-15th century falchion I have examined in museums is light, with a thin blade and quite fragile edge. These are not the bludgeoning tools that modern reenactment/buhurt seems to think they are. 🙂
th-cam.com/video/2Sh08Du5F10/w-d-xo.htmlsi=BVQL8X4XSd9GZvUM
Here is an example of a historical falchion that is very clearly built for buhurt and anti armour techniques.
One handed maces and hammers were used a lot on horseback, and they were still effective against lesser armored opponents on foot. Head hits are the most effective, but jus disorient the opponent to assist in grappling. If you watch more harness combat, one handed blunt weapons simply don’t do much to properly made armor. But a force multiplier like a horse is a great way to make them effective against armor, and we’re sometimes backup weapons to Calvary.
@@pluemas unfortunately I think that is a good replica. But it is inspired particularly by an original example in Paris (though note, the Paris example is smaller and lighter). However, I do agree that particularly in the 13th & 14th century there were some falchion designs specialised to armoured fighting. But most surviving falchions in museums and private collections are light with thin cutting edges - very unlike the chunky bars that are used in buhurt.
I think in 15th century and ongoing, they just used poleaxes and 2h poleweapons for greater reach and force. The way of fighting did evolve to more spear/helebard blocks and the armoured fighters needed to get reach in order to fight with the formation. just my 2 cents@@scholagladiatoria
@intheshadow1623 but the use of polearms in the 15th and 16th century only applys to battles, in duels knights manly used swords. The question is, is it tradition or simply the better weapon.
I remember the first time I discovered your channel, it was from a short and I thought, "What ? He just killed him with his dagger", then I saw it again and understood. A proof to say that the cinematography and technique displayed was good enough to get me, ahah
And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. -John 3:16
Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out.
-Acts 3:19
Please go to a PCA Presbyterian or OPC Presbyterian church, or maybe a Rpcna/Rpc Presbyterian church
If you can’t find one of the conservative presby churches then, maybe a Lcms or Wels Lutheran church.
If you are Scottish, I recommend the Free Church of Scotland, they are Presbyterian.
If you are English I recommend the Free Church of England.
:)
I always imagined the main use of the mace was from horseback, when surrounded by infantry or some scenario like that, when you can just reach down and start bashing heads, because that's all you can really reach anyway, and the mace is more effective vs helmets.
Exactly, this is the best option!
Yes but if we are talking about 15th c., then knights often fought dismounted.
@@swiatlowiekuiste depends on the region. I the holy roman empire knights stay in the sattel if possible.
Bertrandon de la Broquière wrote that he thought the cavalry maces he saw carried by Ottoman soldiers could knock someone out through a helmet if swung freely.
You have no reach with a mace with a horse. Very difficult to aim the horse. Also the horse may not want to go near somebody with a pitch fork. A lot of risk of being dismounted. The best option with a horse is the spear. You do not have to be super precise with the horse as you can compensate with the longer reach of the spear.
You make some very good points. I personally feel a mace is only simpler to use in am armoured combat context because edge alignment for striking is not as imperative as it would be for someone using a sword to deliver sword blows to unarmoured battlefield combatants.
In a buhurt context, teaching someone good and sound sword technique definitely takes more effort than just providing someone a 6 flanged mace and allowing them to swing it.
With that being said, a mace in closer distance really helps to facilitate armoured grappling and increase leverage for throws which can lead to fight ending scenarios.
And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. -John 3:16
Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out.
-Acts 3:19
Please go to a PCA Presbyterian or OPC Presbyterian church, or maybe a Rpcna/Rpc Presbyterian church
If you can’t find one of the conservative presby churches then, maybe a Lcms or Wels Lutheran church.
If you are Scottish, I recommend the Free Church of Scotland, they are Presbyterian.
If you are English I recommend the Free Church of England.
:)
As a fellow armored combat fighter, I can clearly remember my surprise when getting struck by a mace for the first time - being not that painful. Yes our buhurt mace heads are capped at 1 lb or .45 kg under HMB and IMCF rules for safety, but in that moment I was surprised about all the "hype" going into them. Falchions and especially the common one handed axe leave marks on my armor and bruises on my flesh. Yet I find polearms are the true debilitating weapons. All weapon types in our sport have the potential to damage armor, but polearms can cause a fighter to be unable to continue after absorbing hits on their armor. In a sport that Matt Easton stated was "hardcore & brutal" the community within agrees that polearms are scary and the most dangerous. Even blunted they regularly damage collarbones, shoulders, and especially hands!
A surprising number of extant Renaissance short cavalry maces weigh 3.5-4lbs (overall weight). They got quite hefty. Some of them may have been ceremonial, but I doubt that's the full explanation.
@@b.h.abbott-motley2427 There is a very simple explanation for the popularity of maces among cavalrymen.
First. On a horse, the weight carried by the fighter is not so important and you can afford different types of weapons. A simple example. Cataphracts periodically used bows and darts.
Second. Cavalry usually fights on the move. The horse gallops without stopping. Piercing and slashing weapons may become stuck on the target. The mace won't get stuck.
Third. Maces and flails were actively used by nomads in raids to capture slaves. The Mongols from the Golden Horde especially stood out for this. Non-lethal use of blunt weapons.
Fourth. As was said in the video, the most vulnerable place is the head. On horseback you can very comfortably hit the infantrymen's heads with a mace. But all sorts of techniques with a sword will be much more difficult to arrange.
These statements are true for a short historical period. It is important that more or less all participants in the battle wore armor, which greatly reduced the effectiveness of slashing weapons. When armor became less common, sabers came into use.
I fully agree with your comment about pole arms. Used to "sword and board" it before retiring. Pole arms are very nasty when used by an experienced person.
I would definitely "nope" out to taking a hit from pretty much any part of a bec de corbin.
Unless I get close enough to you (mace range) so you can't use your pole arm effectively. Then you use it for blocking and I grab it with my other hand and guess what. Your pole is useless and we are locked together in mace range.
Glad you're sharing your voice as someone in the harnesfechten community, with its wealth of experience. Our knowledge of this kind of combat can only benefit from dialogue between folks like yourselves and Matt Easton, etc. I would love to see a collab!
I also would love a collaboration. Björn Rüther is also on my line of collaboration plans.
And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. -John 3:16
Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out.
-Acts 3:19
Please go to a PCA Presbyterian or OPC Presbyterian church, or maybe a Rpcna/Rpc Presbyterian church
If you can’t find one of the conservative presby churches then, maybe a Lcms or Wels Lutheran church.
If you are Scottish, I recommend the Free Church of Scotland, they are Presbyterian.
If you are English I recommend the Free Church of England.
:)
@@dequitemyou go the bonkers 🦾
You have good points. Just because it's easy to hit someone with a mace, that doesn't mean you're gonna do any damage. Especially if you're only hitting the body.
Overall I agree with you.
It's usually horsemen who carry one handed maces and axes probably because they always aim for the head, while footmen prefer falchons and pole axes and other two handed weapons.
Very interesting insight, I'm subscribed to both you and Matt Easton btw
You are welcome. I also subscribe to Matt Easten's channel. I really enjoye his videos and mostly agree with him.
Your point about horsemen makes absolutely sense. I thought about it too, but I have no experience with maces on horse, that's why I didn't mention it in my video.
They didn't only aim for the head, though that was probably the primary target. Here's one bit Pietro Monte wrote about the mace/club/hammer: "taking the club with both hands, three or four blows are to be struck with the utmost force and velocity, since if we hit his weapon we often strike it out of his hand. Likewise, in whichever other place we strike, we do great work." Juan Quijada de Reayo mentioned wounding head & the hands with the hammer, in the context of men-at-arms fighting men-at-arms.
@@b.h.abbott-motley2427 aiming for the weapons seems interesting. Thanks for the information!
They don't do any damage because of the cost of that armor and the rules. You hit a joint like an elbow or knee it's going to damage it. You ring their bell with a head shot and they're going to be knocked silly or demised. I'd take a mace or war hammer over a sword in a real fight any day.
It wasn't duels that armored knights were designed for. The lack of lethality in 1vs1 combat on foot of a mace is totally irrelevant to most actual combat scenarios a historic knight would have found themselves in. It was the 2000 pound trained warhorse that was his main weapon after all. All the knight needed was a weapon to bash in heads from above as he plowed through, or knock an occasional opposing knight from his horse (that was all it usually took for them to surrender anyway). When on foot the goal was mostly to just get out, keeping lesser-armored opponents at bay, bash them mostly to the ground so they'd be trampled or mobbed in the crowded chaos. No knight in that situation was going to care much about aiming for weakpoints or lack of lethality against a fully armored enemy he wasn't likely to encounter on foot. Also a shield in that bad situation is much more useful than a twohanded weapon.
It was only when armored knights were deployed on foot that it was a different matter, but then they usually traded in for pole weapons, needing to do some actual killing now. The fights probably looked more similar to typical spear&shield infantry clashes and simply getting knocked down likely meant not getting back up again.
I don't think you ride a horse into groups of armed infantry other than in the movies. They're for chasing down fleeing opponents or clashing with other horse troops.
I mean, the mace is effective in striking armoured heads. That’s the point I think…
Also it’s kind of hard to stop the full momentum of the mace, the best option is to dodge.
But I think the most overlooked part that nobody talks about is the price, it’s the most affordable and cost effective option that needs little maintenance. And you can arm an army of for example pesants with it and they’ll know how to use it effectively. As with the sword it needs maintenance, is more expensive and you need to edge align your strikes for effective cuts, know how to spot armour gaps so half swording knowledge is required.
A poleaxe is the same simplicity but with a reach factor and a more expensive weapon to make also not as effective short range. A spear is a really good weapon for making distance for knights on horseback, also low maintenance but of course not good in close range and an armoured opponent will have the confidence to grab the spear… A
knife is excellent on armoured opponents if you are armoured as well, problem is in a battle it ain’t a one on one confrontation, while you there grabbing the dude looking for gaps you getting smashed in the head with a mace. And a mace of course, great for concussions the thing is it’s not as versatile like a sword, it ain’t fast, and can get dodge and grabbed more than it can actually hit. But all it takes is one good solid hit to the head of your opponent and he’s getting dazed, you’ll just need to take the opportunity to strike again afterwards.
They're biased towards swords because of the rules of the game they are playing.
Funnily enough to strengthen your point about maces and heads, in Sweden around the 14th century, maces equipped with protrusions and flanges began to be referred as 'hjälmkrossare' or 'helmet-crushers' in period sources.
Interesting.
I instantly subscribed after watching the 1st few shorts, thank you for preserving the history of combat in whats perhaps THE most honorable way ive seen.
While the purpose is no longer to kill your opponent, i could watch you guys duel all day 🙏
A few things:
The type of mace being shown was required for heavy cavalry in places like the Byzantine Empire, but this is because they are effective against mail and linen armour, later maces developed to be more dangerous to plate, but were also less used, though ottoman heavy cavalry still carried them, as did the Polish and Russians.
Swords were good in duels, the context of battle however is significantly different, when knights were indeed on foot they could cooperate and act tactically. Once men at arms were common, armour developed and killing somewhat more excusable rather than overpowering an opponent men would work in teams, one man would hook the armoured man and try to topple him and the other would stand behind to defend his fellow or to step forward and wail on the toppled knight with a pole-axe or other piercing weapon.
Longswords were good in duels, notably juridical one's, and had symbolic purpose. One to one skill and luck played a greater part, and no one wanted to see a couple of retainers ruin the respect towards a duel by ganging up on the opponent or having him run down by a spontaneous knights on horseback.
Excellent video. I wouldn’t mind more of these analytical types of videos
These points I'll be making are probably not for the duels, because simply I'm not interested in them, I only imagine heated battle and chaos scenarios, so that's why these might be entirely irrelevant:
I also want to add if the armor is any less that what you're wearing, then I'd pick the sword. And that's why historically sword can be superior because not everyone can afford buying tanks. Probably that was the equivalent price compared to today :)
10:24 same for swords, too. You can block a swing or a thrust with your arm. If a mace can't hurt you a swing with a sword won't hurt you either because of the physics of the energy transfer, unless you hit perpendicular to armor surface, there will be a massive energy loss, (and you can even break your sword, there can be many reasons, missing the alignment or getting blocked or if your opponent changes the angle of their stand...) whereas that's not the case for the mace, if the head contacts, that's near full energy transfer.
11:54 why would you try to defend yourself with a short mace, that simply won't work, if you're defending either you need a shield or a bucket or that defense is pointless. Maces are effective in wrestling distances. If you're going to sit and defend, mace is not the right weapon for it.
12:09 Mace needs space yes, put your other elbow in between you and the opponent and you have the perfect space. I think fighting with a mace requires overwhelming offence, otherwise it won't work. Letting the opponent use his sword is a death sentence.
12:55 but penetrating is not the main goal, again it's the energy transfer. If your goal is to kill a knight that's not an easy task, but disabling them is easier.
14:07 yes, yes, exactly, I also agree with all the handicaps of the maces which you mentioned, I still believe in the superiority of the maces and more so for one handed war hammers despite all that.
15:52 yeah, but you can't even use swords in wrestling distance.
16:27 but that's a longer war hammer. The one other guy had in the background was perfect for close combat.
18:00 Yeah but you can swing again and again, you don't need to aim that much, if it contacts it's enough, while holding your opponents hand or weapon or in the wrestling distance or while he's holding you, you'll eventually break their bones. But with sword using one hand, that's not going to happen, they can switch to dagger but that ends the sword part, so... :)
The only time swords' blunt damage can be superior to maces I believe is hitting the fingers. While a mace hit on the fingers can be countered by the suspension effect on the fingers, a sword hit will be much more effective because the force will be much concentrated on a couple of fingers or all the 4
And I agree with him overall.
I don't have the opportunity, wish I could join the fights to prove my points :)
I like some of your arguments, but don't underastimate the use of halfsword as a dagger. I can better work with a sword in wrestling than with a mace. I tested both. 😉
@@dequitem that's insane. How can you wrestle someone with 1 hand effectively and also try to use a long weapon? As someone that practices greco in highschool and mostly does BJJ it doesn't make sense at all.
Absolutely great video. Really informative and perspective changing as a lover of medieval armoured combat. I look forward to learning more things on this channel!
Wow! Always informative and entertaining!
Love the video, bro. I've always been into Medieval subjects and have a good collection of weapons, but only recently began getting into their practical uses in history.... keep up the good work. Your shorts are quite intense!
Nice video! This is something I've thought been so sure of myself. It was nice to get some clarification on that. It really is something that makes sense in theory but maybe not as much in practice.
I think for knights on horseback , mace was secondary weapon after lance. (If i was armored cavalry i would have a lance in my hand, sword on my left side, mace on right side and dagger in front. Be ready for different circumstances. ) In sitiuations when you can`t charge anymore and stuck, but still on horseback i will say mace is better than sword. Range, footwork and technique are out but you can stand on stirrups and make some really hard blows and maces are perfect for that. In battle scenario when you are on foot, sword or mace, personal prefference i guess. But in a duel, armored or unarmored i will choose a sword over a mace. One opponent, better reach and technique is everything.
Exactly! ❤️
In the middle of the 16th century, Juan Quijada de Reayo gave the following order of weapons for men-at-arms: lance, estoc, arming sword, hammer, dagger. For whatever, he wrote to use the estoc & then arming sword before turning to the hammer.
This is fantastic. Thank you both for this opportunity to witness this real world scholarship. More please!!!!
I really like this video. It calls back to why i like things Like MMA in the OneFC, but also the drawbacks of sports. The closer you get to the real thing the more myths you dispell.
Would love to see you do some live testing with Tod's Workshop, you both have very good analytical minds regarding medieval combat, and your real-world experience combined with his historical studies would make for some really interesting content
If you have time in the future can you do a comparison between a longsword and a pole arm like halberd for armored combat?
I will, I already have a script for that 😉.
@@dequitemyes! I cant wait.
Spoiler, the guy with the sword dies at the end ;)
@@CryptoC4T 🤔
I think this needs to be tested with ballistic dummies. Maces can be used as leverage to damage joints (assuming you get there..that's always a gamble). Hits against knees and wrists are awful to deal with and a mace is really good at applying that pressure.
I am here from Mats channel and I really like your format, a politeness Dequitem. I am happy to subscribe.
Cool, thanks to Matt.
Great video, I can tell you have respect for the man. Your response brought up many interesting points from the perspective of armoured fighting without any denigration of your opponent and friend. Very honourable, I dig your style.
I always felt like the mace was really just a cheap, easy and simple sidearm. Not the best option, just the cheap one. Warhammers on the other hand are a lot more dangerous, their shape transfers a lot more.
Also, Buhurt maces are extremely light, many athletes have reported that, they are so light to not be dangerous, that they are only considered good for grappling.
But the weight is historical accurate 😅
I love this, it's like theory + practice, and a whole lot to learn.
Imma be honest i thought the idea of a mace being better against armor was absolute and accepted everywhere so im very surprised when i found out some experts say otherwise. Great knowledge!
It is better against armor. Brigantines and mail specifically
It is indeed better against armour BUT its effectiveness is not as high as we imagine.
I think a pretty simple way to put it is if against armor, a sword does 10 damage, a mace does 15 damage, but the problem is full plate has 1000 hp.
Its more effective but the armor is so tough anyway that it just doesnt matter, so in the end you have to rely on lucky critical hits
@chieckenman4432 It does matter. No matter how small the advantage or disadvantage, if you able to apply and accumulate enough, you could win or take down enemy whose you can't beat under normal circumstances. Outcome will be a lot different if we add other variables like terrain or weapon combination into the equation.
@@chengkuoklee5734 Sure, but now Swords actually have more advantages than we expect.
Thanks you for the insight about the technique and the "why" and your general content.
But talking about poking/estoc i can't seem to find the duel video in the snow where the blade slit in the gap of the neck with a perfect stab, it was one of the rare fights that didn't end in melee/wrestling with dagger stab on the ground and i'm either confused or bad at finding videos but i went trough most of the duels without finding it again, was it taken down or am i mistaken ? it was my favorite duel here :)
Great video!
I never assumed that Matt was talking about armored duels. It's about combat in war. The mace as a war weapon suffered greatly when the first real helmets were introduced during the Bronze Age, and it never really came back. But Matt's question why we see a seemingly increased appearance of knightly maces in the 14th and 15th c. AD is very justified, especially if you state that it was nearly useless/always the worse option. In my opinion it was the still best option (not a good option) for close quarter fighting on horseback where you cannot move a lot, wrestle or apply fancy tactics. I see the mace as a special weapon with restricted benefits for certain situations.
Indeed, it's for striking from a horseback, but it doesn't feel like Matt talked about that.
This is the most badass channel ever. I just discovered you today from a short and I'm never going back, this channel is glorious!! Also that polehammer is gorgeous, what make and model is it/where can I buy it?
By: arms armor.
That head shot with the mace after talking about when its lethal :S Damn. Hard to unring that bell hahaha
Been looking forward to this!
I absolutely love your longer explanation videos !
But it's so much work and most people don't watch them in comparison to the shorts.
@@dequitem i see... i mean, there is not a single video below 10/10 on your channel, always happy to see you upload no matter how long. Thank you for your work!
Hell yeah! Loved this video!
I've seen a few contemporary historical illustrations of knights or armoured soldiers carrying both a sword and a mace on their belt. Would it actually be practical to carry both or would one of them get in the way?
I think it's a good idea, they not tend to swing in the way and hinder you.
IF i am not mistaken Burgundian sources of the equipment of Men at arms mention that the Man at arms must carry a pole arm, Longsword on one side and the mace or Warhammer on another
It was common in the 16th century for French men-at-arms to have lance, sword, & mace as weapons. Raimond de Fourquevaux mentioned this in his 1548 military treatise, though he didn't give any details about mace use, only that men-at-arms did use them.
Prepared for all situations!
@@vaderksy4730 You are mistaken, Burgundian ordinances require a long, two handed estoc girt and a knife ("cousteau", ie, a fauchion) tied to the saddle. The 1473 ordonnance is the only one that says to have a mace at the saddle (on the other side of the knife).
An EXCELLENT video!
You clearly have a lot of experience fighting in actual armor and your demonstration of how the mace strikes do nothing to the chest, shoulders and elbows.
Reach is a great advantage in all types of melee combat and the sword is extremely versatile on how it can be used to damage an opponent, armored or not.
I completely agree with you in this video. Well argumented! Looking forward to seeing more.
Thank you for this very insightful video!
I wonder if maces were often used to defeat mail, rather than plate armor? While a sword can pierce mail, doing so requires a fairly stiff, pointy sword, and won't always result in much penetration. A mace blow would transmit much more effectively through mail, possibly allowing for incapacitating body and limb blows, with the added benefit of keeping the enemy alive.
Nikephoros in the 10th century prescribed maces, and lots of them, for his super heavy cavalry. Had to have something to recommend their use, albeit in the early medieval period
You always have the best videos. Have a happy new year!
Saw his video, then saw yours, then saw he responded. So stoked he responded! Your channel deserves so many more views.
Great video thank you!
Also where did you get that pollaxe please?
I'd say always take a mace with you as a knight for fighting against foolish enemies, ransom keeps the beer flowing and armour oiled.
I'm curious to know how dangerous are the fights you participate? Those attacks looked legit, even with blunt weapons I have to imagine that if you hit between the plates or eye slits it has to hurt.
You are a real warrior.
When you talk about striking and hitting, about fights generally you have this instinctual smiling 😂
Born to fight.😏
It's good that you wearing a helmet in fights, so your opponent can't see your joy and get terrified about this insane dude 😂
😅 Indeed, most of the time I really smile under the helmet.
you brought up a lot of good points in this video! I do have one question though. It appears that the most dangerous area of the sword is the tip, to thrust into gaps and penetrate mail. Many poleaxes had a thrusting point on both front and back ends of the weapon. Couldn't that be used to similar effectiveness to a sword while keeping your options open with the blunt hammer and extra reach?
Of course but it's easier to grab the poleaxe. A Blade can protect the swordsman from getting pinned in grappling.
On battlefield a mace and shield is better, but for duels I prefer longswords.
Just wanted to say that I appreciate this kind of dialogue, we all benefit from it!
I love how there's drama in every area of TH-cam. 😂
(I know it's educational n fun.)
Mace is not really an "armoured weapon" per se, i think it's good if you DON'T want to kill your opponent, and your opponent is semi-armoured at most (think like a breastplate and helmet, or maile and helmet etc.) You can take out someone by breaking their knee, shoulder, arm and he won't bleed out. Headshots are also acceptable if the opponent wears a lighter helmet (though it will not do shit against a great bascinet for example). However they are really good from horseback, you can just bash heads either at a gallop or while being surrounded etc.
Also in a battlefield they are okay-ish on foot, but they are more of a "rogue's weapon" in that sense that you don't "duel" the guy infront of you with a mace, you probably try to hit people who are not expecting it, like you see two guys fighting next to you and you just join in with a good whack to the head or something.
Pollhammers are a bit different story, more reach, more laverage, top spike, bottom spike, and a hook. You can use it as a half sworded longsword (thrusting the point to the gaps and wrestling) but also have the head to hook limbs, weapons, shields, etc and to hit heads.
Absolutely agree. 😍
Short maces saw use almost exclusively by men-at-arms & other heavily armored cavalry in 15th- & 16th-century Europe.
Nice transitions, idk who does video editing on these but that's a 10/10
It's all me. I don't have a cutter.
YEAH!! love your videos dequitem happy new year!
Red?!?!?!?
@@nagh887ofc the whole mordhau discord is here.
Any reference of how I can find the venetian war hammer you show at the beginning of the video?
Excited!!!!
Happy new year🎊 keep doing this amazing videos guys more power to you all💪😊👍
My impression was that in the context of getting a knight for ransom, its much easier to incapacitate without killing when you hit him with a mace compared to hitting him with a sword.
Absolutely, that's the most interesting part.
So accurate in your statements. I think the main problem with a mace in armored combat, apart of its limited capacity for doing strikes in a short range of fighting, is its low defense quality as you get exposed to opponent hits or counterattacks after having done your own strike.
Mace is a heavy weapon with a short shaft and center of gravity in the top of the weapon, which tends to be a little slow to move properly in comparison to weapons with a more balanced center of gravity, like swords, axes or pole weapons.
It's the reason why in almost every RPG game maces often have high attack points while they have very low defense points. Meanwhile as you said, the long sword can fight at its own rhythm and fighting style, switching conveniently between long range style to a short range half swording as the fight requires it
Hi! Im not very familiar if this sport, so one question came to my mind: how do you guys use this impact wepons without hurting your selfes?
Good Video As Always, I Wonder Where You Get The Arms And Armor that You Show In These Videos, I’m Really Interested
I believe he made his own armor! as for the weapons, idk man
th-cam.com/video/HVKU9sCm2aM/w-d-xo.htmlsi=dwbpZa0xwMQm6n8u
Here is Dequitem's video about his weapons. It's in German but he put a few links in the video description.
Idk man, i watched a bunch of videos where people used the spike on a warhammer to bring devastating blows down on steel helmets and chestplates. Otherwise i agree with the video. Thank you for your insights!
I like how you use actual fight situations to support your statements.
Fun and interesting debate! (A) Conceptual-complexity vs. (B) Practical-performance. Ease = A + B. Debating which is easier will have you chasing your tails because of the way they relate in the equation (assuming the equation parallels reality). Change the equation to Ax * By = Ease, then Mace.x = 1, Mace.y = 3, while Sword.x = 3, Sword.y = 1. Fill in and isolate for either A or B and you get a relationship between ease of Conceptual vs Practical. You can add in Athleticism as (+ Cz), based on how much less difficult each is to use because you are more fit, or even split these into Power, Endurance, Agility, etc., and maybe even be able to read the equation and determine a typical fight path, or set two opponents equations = to each other, cancel like terms, and see what remains - what the real contest might come down to in the end… System-builder Rabbit-hole! 😂
Epic analysis!
How dangerous do you think blunt trauma from maces / axes / swords is when used against earlier body armor such as brigandine / lamellar / mail? Would body hits from maces or even swords be potentially lethal if these armors are not actually fully penetrated?
The idea of brigandine armor being earlier is a bit strange- it was contemporary with plate for the majority of it’s life, even though plate ended up being used after brigandine’s use came to an end, right?
Love your RBM mod for Bannerlord! Can't play without it ❤
@@TheBetterBleedingBladesTH-cam I think brigandine appeared with or as a variant of partial plate armor, while the armor in video is full plate or almost full plate. I specifically asked about brigandine because it is supposedly similiar in performance to decent lamellar armor but people are more likely to recognize brigandine than lamellar.
@@philozoraptor6808 In the sections where he fights his friend, though, most of his friends kit is brigandine- also interesting point. I think brigandine as I think of it comes into it’s own around the same time as solid plate is getting popular (latter half of the 14th century or so? I’m not entirely certain) but you’re probably right that stuff like coats of plates did come before full solid plate, but that depends on what you define as brigandine, and even then coat of plates and such started to come about around just barely earlier than plate, right?
With brigandine u more often become bruises in the shape of a single plate 😂 but u are fully protected against strikes. With realy bad luck 1% of the thrusts can penetrat between the plates, but normally it's safe.
Lamellar armor is a often not perfectly shaped and immobilize you more than full plate, but the combination of plates are sometimes wobbly and bruises happens more often.
Overall u are still safe enough in both armor types.
Mail works better than most people think and can protect you from most sword attacks. Late medival maces are a problem and can hurt and break bones, but only very heavy strikes. Mail and a small padding is more protective than many people think, and very flexible for movement. But u need small plates on shoulders, elbows...
Who made your gorget? I love that design and haven't seen one like it before
Self made, there are only pictural sources for that kind of gorget
What steel is your armor made out of? Maybe back in the medieval period, armour was easier to dent overall because of worse steel
@Dequitem I think you make a large number of excellent points concerning YOUR armor and those of the 15th Century (and later field plate) but remember that the battlefield encompassed a number of people with less training and much less armor coverage and poshness. Hardened armor was definitely a thing for the wealthy but for the average soldier, archer, or skirmisher not as much. I agree with you that a knight likely wouldn't choose a mace for combat but others might through lack of funding or training with a sword.
I just think this discussion could use a bit more specificity. Who is choosing the mace and why might they for fighting a foe in armor? What is the level of armor? That of a rich noblemen of the mid to late 15th Century? or that of a middling man-at-arms of the early to middle part of the 14th Century?
I agree with you that good armor makes a mace a suboptimal choice but against poor armor (unhardened, thinner, ill-fitting) it might be worth it.
I would consider it as an archer is my mates and I peppered the heck out of an armored gent with heavy arrows/quarrels and then when he was disoriented or injured (if we could), rush him with a number of peeps with bludgeoning weapons to keep the disorientation up and hopefully injure while others worked to hold the knight and others worked to get nasty pointy things into the gaps of the armor.
But most medival soldiers had plate armor it's a myth that a peasent was unarmored at all, a knight had to armor their soldiers and a citizen had to buy armor by himself if he wants his rights as a member of the city. It's not true that there were that many unarmored or people with only mail, yes there is a big difference between a trained knight and a soldier but peasents ar less como on the battlefield of the middelage. All that changes after the the 16th century. Most modern movies ly to u.
@@dequitem again, that's why I said we need to better define who the combatants are and the time period. I didn't ever say peasants. But I did differentiate between archers, skirmishers, and other not fully armored on the battlefield. I also made the distinction that not all plate was hardened or made well. That is why I think you need to better seat your argument in both time and circumstances.
I think your arguments are very good for your armor and similar mid 15th century and later hardened 3/4 harness to field plate. But I disagree with you about that being the only or the majority of the armor on the battlefield at that time.
Looking at the manuscript illustration and artwork or the time, it is still clear that there is a variety of armor and armor coverage among soldiers/man-at-arms/knights based on location, time period, and I would guess personal preference.
An excellent resource for thickness, hardess, and type of armor is "The Knight and the Blast Furnace" by Alan Williams. A point he makes is that until the 15th Century the majority of steel plate manufactured north of the Alps was not case hardened. Mr. Williams goes in depth using analysis of extant pieces discussing thickness and metallurgy by region. Great book.
when using a sword
you can hold the sword by the blade
and use the pommel as a mace
Huh, I always thought that maces and other bludgeons were very effective to use since I assumed you can just beat your enemy into submission armored or not. And also thought that swords were only the better choice for unarmored combat and everyday carry. But the greater reach, nimbler movements, and bigger striking area are good points. This has definitely opened my eyes.
With that being said, would you say that a weapon like an Estoc would be especially effective in armored combat?
Great video!
Yes, the difference between estoc and later longswords isn't that big.
Give the Eaton is blunt and can imagine nasty tricks like poolcuing and handing sliding for a murderstroke. Downside is a blunt sword is safer for an opponent to grab.
One Point that gets under the rug all the time is that not everyone had the money to buy a full armor. A mace seems a fine weapon Vs gambesons and chainmail, but only hurts a full plated warrior on the head.
Good video
Edit: as I talked about money it came into my mind that a mace is 100times cheaper to build than a sword. So it's a nice side weapon for a peasant militia spear line if the opponent got through the pointy ends.
Historical maces are often the same price like swords. A steel mace isn't a wooden club. Spear and Messer is the common combination.
@@dequitem oh okay,good to know.
I had no idea Kingdom Come Deliverance had such realistic sound design. You hitting your own armor with your mace sounded identical to striking an armored enemy in that game.
Im curious how you get all your gear, do you have it specially made or do you get it from online retailers?
From what I've seen he makes some of it himself, you can find videos where he shows the smithing process of some pieces and also links to his tools.
Indeed, most of my armor is made by myself. Most of my swords are from Sigi forge.
You bring up many good points; I agree with you.
I have a question which is completely off-topic but taking into account the grappling accept with hema and buhurt, how do you think a wrestler, bjj athlete or MMA fighter would fare in armor+weapon against the average duelist?
Ive been watching alot of ur vids recently and noticed 90% of the time it comes down 2 daggers, i was asking before if it would be effective to be lightly Armoured with say a couple daggers, or a dagger and a small shield, would that not be more effective vs full armor and heavy weapons? Getting in close and quickly poking?
Absolutely no, it's nearly always better to have more armor! And no it's around 30 to 50 percent of my fights going on the ground with daggers, but I like these fights mor and often upload them insteat of a short fight where I instantly thrust my opponent in the visor slight. Theses short fights are often not as much fun to watch!
@dequitem nah they are all pretty good 👍
Keep in mind when people are fighting 90% of the time there are hits that would absolutely be lethal out of armour before either get the chance to grapple
It’s harder to even get to that point in the fight if you can be incapacitated by someone clipping your arm with a sword
Wow, you guys go at full speed ..😮 it's excellent
What if you move you handling of the mace in close combat moving your hand half way up the handle neck Strikes
Not gonna lie, I’m guilty of severely underestimating just how protective plate armor is. Exposure to games, HEMA channels, and academic conjecture definitely influenced how I perceived the efficacy of armor. A lot of it is conjecture, and much of what we know is from historical accounts as opposed to first hand experience. Or so I thought.
Turns out there are lads out there crazy enough to full on wallop each other in full harness 😂 While you’re not out to kill each other and have safety features in place (like blunted tips and edges), I’d wager that what you guys do is quite similar to the punishment armor would have taken at the time. So glad I found your channel randomly, and stay safe! (Or at least as safe as a bunch of lads walloping each other can be)
We really won't know until we have people fight to the death with 3 lb maces.
Question is what hurts more in armor, mace or sword?
A mace, but not a lot.
Damn man how do you even get all of this gear??? Also great vid!
Forged it by myself!
Both according to records can get through armor. But the mace can be used for nonlethal stun.
maybe the reason for using a mace in battle is the same as stated for usage in law enforcement. given people were religious in medival some of them might have just followed the 5th commandment "you shall not kill". while at the same time maybe get some ransome.
2 handed weapon should have almost always advantage against 1 handed weapon with speed and manuvers, but if you use mace try to push enemy to the ground and fight on the ground to get some advantage, when you fall flat on back with 2 handed sword, and and another guy is squash him with the weight of his body, and waking his head and arms with mace what gone to happend?
I mean... to say the mace is 'easier to use' is fairly accurate. There are a lot of options when using a sword or spear... but many of those parries, feints, and such are not really viable with a mace.
Now, to clarify... the mace being 'easier' doesn't mean it is more effective.
Two people with no training and experience, the mace will be easier to figure out how to use. However, as experience and training increase... the sword starts taking dominance.
That's the thing though... the guy is saying 'easier', which is technically true. It's just he is intending 'effective', which is not true.
I used to buy into the 'mace for cracking armour', until I started watching matches... and started seeing how real combat works.
Perhaps, in a large battle a mace could come in from the side or back while the person is engaged with someone else. I mean, a heavy hit that throws a person off might be just enough to create an opening for the guy with the sword to make a move.
Absolutely true. Thanks for your great comment.
Sehr gutes Video, Matt hat denke keine Erfahrung in Rüstung außerhalb seines Reenactment.
Da ist es sehr gut, eine Perspektive aus dem Harnischfechten zu haben und nicht nur aus dem Buhurt, da dort Stiche erlaubt sind...
Danke. Durch seine Erfahrung im Hema war auch ich von ein paar seiner Aussagen überrascht.
What about the Bec de Corbin? It has the defensive length of a longsword, a hammer with much more force behind it due to leverage, an ice pick that could penetrate plate (maybe after a few hits) and a point to get into the weak spots from a clinch. The only drawback would be its weight.
Video about that in 2 or 4 weeks! 😅
@@dequitem won't miss it then!
Its a polearm, which already makes it an entirely different class of weapon to maces. I can see them hurting fairly hard.
2:56 "The mace is a shorter weapon. They have to be, because they hardly have any counterweight and otherwise can't strike fast enough."
A mere 2 sentences, but really illuminating for me. I never thought of that, but it makes total sense.
I find an issue that this video assumes the plate is made from modern hardened steel.
In the medieval age, most plate would be a mild steel variant, being significantly easier to pierce or dent. If you take this into consideration, I think it would drastically change the discussion.
Also the fact a thrust through a gap isn't gauranteed to deal significant if any damage at all should also be considered. Gaps are often covered in mail which does a fair job at stopping many thrusts.
But this is not true for the late medival times and in early modern times the steel quality was good enough to be save from muskets 😅 if you are a rich knight.
@@dequitem Not every knight was "a rich knight", which should actually be "the richest knights". Milder steel was still the most common in the late medieval period (14th to 15th century).
"Plate armor" was widespread only in the late medieval period regardless.
Even hardened steel plate armor from the late medieval period couldn't stop muskets, they were too thin, dedicated armor was made to stop muskets in the 16th and 17th century.
An exception does not nullify the point that your sample is not the most accurate analog for the discussion.
@@dequitem the issue isnt the steel, its the undersized mace... just get a 1,5 KG Hammer and a plate of steel in the right thickness and do some testing. you will see how absolutly massiv the damage is.
You should definitely do some collabs with Scholagladiatoria!
One handed maces are best used for Cavalry, the only way most blunt weapons can be effective against armor is with a force multiplier like a horse. Love your videos btw, been watching them a lot since pursuing the knightly arts stopped uploading. If you can get enough people, I think an armored group fight could be pretty sick.
Would love it too. But it's hard to find even a single fighter who is willing to fight in this intensity. But I don't lose hope and will take every advantage I get.
Cavalry
@@ezkiller93 😅
If I lived closer (and wouldn't die from a heart attack), I'd totally swing with you. When I was much younger (and healthier), I used to do such fights with my friends in SCA, which often got us in trouble for being unsanctioned.
In any case, I much preferred the warhammer & tomahawk simply because I didn't have the time to train with swords as my friends did (plus tomahawks gave me the throwing option).
Regarding mace use, targeted hits to the side of the knee was prohibited, even with armor; we had several injuries so the only "legal" attacks targeting the knees were traps and trips with the weapon shaft. Therefore several major targets were off-limits to mace & hammers. However, this was many years ago and the rules may have changed.
Love watching your videos, and it's refreshing to not get into the weeds with theoretical & choreographed situations; we can see exactly how it happened (minus the actual death part). 🫡
Since you are at it - what purpose those swinging a sword or a mace serve in such armored combat when it seems to have little to no effect? Would it not make sense for parties to straight up wrestle instead of smashing metal on metal? Is its only purpose to confuse the opponent?
Speaking from experience, one of the primary benefits of a sword is it's excellent in a grapple. It's a long lever, angled correctly it's a massive force multiplier. You can also use it to sweep or hook the leg.
One huge disadvantage of maces, axes and the like is they're almost always much shorter than a sword and don't give you nearly the same advantage in a bind.
So... what we can establish is that the learning curve isn't very long for mace. Which kinda makes sense because it's a very simple weapon. Whether or not mace's learning curve is steeper than that of a sword may be debatable; but, sword's learning curve is definitely longer i.e. there's much more that can be done with it with enough practice.
Were flanged maces ever given a spike at the end like how warhammers and polearm weapons did? I never see them with anything at the tip, is it because they're too short to viably thrust?
Yes there were spikes, but they are to short to kill.
I honestly would probably just prefer a dagger, from some small tests I’ve done, they aren’t the most accurate and it is probably a bit difficult in real combat and in armor but I’ve found it isn’t too hard to aim a dagger. I would try to grapple and control their weapon and stab at the gaps. I have not done harnischfechten, even though I would like to and I don’t know if that would work because I’m just not qualified enough, so feel free to correct me if that wouldn’t work
Sounds good. Keep in mind a sword is a bigger dagger and can do the same actions but with more power and reach. 😉
One thing I wonder about is how rounded your mace is, would you be so keen to hit yourself with a pointy one like Matt has?
I think if you consider more boradly the concept of "armoured combat" maces aren't always as ineffective as they are against plate armor. An opponent, wearing only mail and insufficient padding, might be a lot more vulnerable to blunt force attacks. Also I would assume in actual battles people used these short maces in conjunction with a shield. In the context of tight formations with shields the abitlity to just bash aways at the enemy without worrying about ruining your sword may also be quite useful at times.
If you hit really hard can the mace break the arms or the legs, or maybe the ribs or neck? I imagine the armour would absorb all the damage where the strike lands but maybe your joint can't bear the load and break? Does the armour have some lock at the joints to prevent that?
The ribs probably will not break, same with the legs or arms most likely, but (coming from a position [unfortunately] outside of armored fighting) it seems quite possible to me that on a harness with less protection for it, a collar bone could be broken- necks are generally a little more guarded with plate of some sort making it harder to break by rotation, but we do have evidence of broken necks by being pushed downwards into the torso, although that also was probably from lighter armored combatants.
@@TheBetterBleedingBladesTH-cam "we do have evidence of broken necks by being pushed downwards into the torso" that makes sense. I imagine there's not much they could do to support the neck for that direction since you'd need some room for head rotation. Didn't occur to me that that's another direction the neck could break, only thought of the neck snapping by twisting or backward or sideways.
@@ribos2762 Yeah- helmets like the armet or grand bascinet tend to offer protection for most types of broken necks, though, because they thin out below the jaw and are supported by gorgets.