A Christian Thinks Through the arrival of Hermes in the Corner
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i love you as much as one anonymous commenter can love an internet person. This is tricky territory and you are so good at exploring it with care and attention. Thank you
Beware of any spirit that offers you bread from a stone. This exclusive wisdom must be so tempting for the ego of the intellectual.
Zackly. And how often "high openess" wanderers like me can get breadcrumbed down a lost path--and hopefully not get poached in the process. Thank God for the Good Shephard who Is the sheep's gate (and the Logos who fills and carries us through the liminal spaces).
I had forgotten about this interview between John and Jordan. I had been thinking about Hermes because something Martin Shaw wrote. The power of Hermes was in the ability to deliver the message, one soul directly to the other. And in today’s world, we deliver messages with all the speed of Hermes, but where the soul is not prepared the message is not received properly. Shaw points out that story is one of the ways we prepare the soul to receive the message.
Listening to an hour-plus video is a small price to pay for your insights, PVK, and for your work curating the ideas and insights of others. Thank you for what you do- you have blessed me and have made me more equipped to bless others.
Alistair Crowley also had interactions with Hermes where he was told he was special.
When I was a new Ager and conducted rituals, I too contacted similar beings and was led down the garden path, which led me into a chaotic and haunted state of being.
They are the fallen angels, who dazzle us with created light, rather than the uncreated light of God.
Thank God for my guardian angel, and thank God for our Lord Jesus Christ who saved me from it all ☦️
How do you know angels exist?
Glory to Jesus Christ the Lord of all
Word Up
Thank you paul for the song at the end. I think in some ways as the corner has continued it has become more appropriate for explicit Christian thoughts and approaches and I thank God for you and your faithfulness. May He continue to keep you and hold you and work through you. Amen
Sometimes I find myself belly laughing at the absurd or while mocking evil and I realize I’ve been colonized by the joyful spirit of PVK.
lol yes!
It's similar to Chesterton first being offended then laughing at the suggestion that Christianity derived from primeval phallic worship.
As a young man I remember reading M. Scott Pecks books, The Road Less Travelled, People of the Lie and Glimpses of The Devil. Peck was a materialist Psychiatrist who initially set out to scientifically disprove the existence of the supernatural. He instead encountered God and came to faith.
I have a friend who is a retired seminary professor at Calvin Seminary. A student from a third world county was brought to him when the student claimed that an evil spirit inhabited his dorm room. My friend and a colleague, who had also been a missionary in a third world country went to the room and performed an exorcism (Peck's books talk about how this is done without all of the RC ritual. BTW one of his best friends was the leading RC Exorcist of the day.) The student was satisfied the spirit was gone. My friend said he had learned how from colleagues in more Charismatic churches, not in seminary ;-). This is one reason that Charismatic churches spread so fast in those countries, because the spirit world is very much alive and evident there. I'm sure Paul could tell stories.
I tend to think that the honest prayer of the most simple believer is a more powerful experience than any “mystical experience”. When one truly cried abba father from the heart there is no need for sign or wonder. And no need for the believer to worry. Trust and obey
Every faithfully lived Christian life is "mystical" in that it is a partaking of the divine nature, as you rightly say, having the Holy Spirit witness to your spirit that you are a child of God by union with the Son Jesus Christ, and moved to cry, Abba, Father. Non Christians do not have this and cannot understand it. Their "mysticism" is a false substitute, an idol.
This mirrors my comment above in some ways. Yes - there has to be a place/a time/an occasion where our philosophizing and doctrinal disputes and scriptural studies and churchmanship have to reach their end and you cry out to see God face-to-face. A moment of nakedness before God, then end of ourselves. God willing we’ll experience this in its fullness in eternity when we no longer see dimly.
I like this guy.
Reassessing all the things you hear from different camps makes one thing pretty clear - we know a lot less than we thought we did. Reading Dominion, listening to Catholic and orthodox stories, and my own experiences of good and bad in Pentecostalism, I often wonder how much of these things, such as Marian apparitions, saints and spirits are deceptions, and how much are from God condescending to meet people’s expectations. The fruit is good and bad. Chad’s wife’s story about the need to wear a scapular 24/7 sounds like bondage, yet the story of Mary giving that “blessing” is touted as a great miracle. other stories speak of great comfort coming through saints. Even the way God seems to honor contradictory statements of belief within differing traditions points to a tendency to meet us at our own understanding. The cessationist speaking in tongues and the Pentecostal who fails to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit are both rare, and usually result in people moving from one tradition to another, even swapping places. I wonder if a spirit such as Hermes is necessarily antagonistic towards God, or if he could be an obedient servant. Is it because John would be more skeptical of an appearance from an angel or Jesus? Would he run away if a demon gave him and unknown name? Would the spirit give a different name to a different person? It’s questions like these that really bring forth the value of sola scriptura, it doesn’t have every specific answer, but I don’t even know how you could make sense of these things as a Christian without scripture as an unchanging ruler to test everything else.
Dangerous and wondrous, Michael.
44:12 this was my first reaction as well. Let us keep him in prayer because we know spiritual forces are real and without being in Christ where could any safety or protection come from?
Babylon Bee did another good one ... Satan: He Gets Us.
Would love to hear Jonathan Pageau's take on this.
Great video, Paul. Really. I appreciate you working through and sharing with us
Get back in your own corner Hermes!
Amen!
Thank you for sharing that song at the end Pastor Paul, that was really beautiful.
I can't really speak for anyone else, but my interest in things beyond my comprehension is in large part because of Peterson exorcising the demon of negative utilitarian ethics from me. From that and the influences of Vervaeke and Pageau (and partially you), I've come to realize we're swimming in this stuff whether we realize it or not, and failing to understand it is going to get people hurt. Maybe that's just a post-hoc rationalization for my pride, and I think it probably was for a long time, but I don't think it is at this point. Then again, that could just be pride too, I don't think it's possible to know.
I'm sure Professor Vervaeke appreciates your prayers. There are a lot of people who venture into the wilderness unprepared, but anyone who does their research knows just how dangerous that undertaking can be. Even the well-wishes of friends can be a powerful ally. A prayer? Well, that's at least +1d20 when casting magic missile against the darkness
🚀🚀🚀🚀
Really good video, PVK. Prayer for people is the most effective way to help. Psychodelics, ouija boards, and dialogs with spirits are very dangerous. Carl Jung himself went batshit crazy for a few years after he fooled around with this stuff.
On the other hand, asking a saint to pray for you is very different from trying to conjure them, which is strictly forbidden. We are to pay no attention to visions and immediately seek the counsel of our spiritual father. Even the saints themselves do not trust these things at face value.
You sound Orthodox
Thanks for what you do Pastor Paul, in spite of my massive disagreements and blunt arguments against these corners and call outs to have a talk or two with our Orthodox apologists.
If that isn’t going to happen, it isn’t going to happen so it’s time to check the “don’t recommend this channel box” and stop arguing the same arguments.
As it will continue the way it is without those debates I hope it serves those who need it well. Good luck and God bless.
We’ll miss ya AC
@@peterrosqvist2480 🙏
Sensible. While the Spirit is “present everywhere and fills all things” outside of the Orthodox Church it’s hit or miss with a lot of miss
@@eyesee9715 I am an Orthodox Catechumen and have unfortunately come to the same conclusion. I stick with Pageau and my priest who have served me well, but many Orthodox online seem more concerned with refuting heresy than they are with anything else.
You are making sense again Paul. Good work. " Protestants use many Catholic practices while Catholic look over at what is good from protestants and use that"
Excellent analysis. Deep and worth thinking on.
It's kind of ironic that John is possessed by a daemon that's otherwise referred to as the god of trickery (aka Bullsh*t)
Deity of travelers and bandits.
Isn't this kind of crazy that of all the mythic figures this is the encounter John had?
I appreciate that you are praying for John. I feel like he's my friend too.
So below is a slightly modified comment that I tried to leave under the original JBP & Vervaeke interview on JBP's channel. Never got past the censors, even after I rewrote it several times to remove potential trigger words. Will be interested to see how it fairs on Paul's channel.
As an 18-year old, I was a goth into high strangeness when my then-favourite author passed away: William S. Burroughs. I decided to attempt contact with his departing spirit via automatic writing. I understand what John means by these experiences being "transjective" (somewhere between objective and subjective), as there was a palpable sense that I was no longer in the driver's seat. Backseat at best.
Fast forward 24 years. I had another knock on my door that I did not consciously instigate, but had no doubt provoked, because he/she/it was none too friendly. Along with poltergeist-like activity, which occurred after four consecutive days of having a persistent earworm (the song "Starboy" by The Weeknd), I was injured and nearly blinded in my right eye by "accidentally" walking into an open car door. (Thanks to Jonathan Pageau, I'm closer to understanding the symbolic significance of that last element.)
I made two desperate phone calls to a pastor with whom I'd only interacted via Twitter (he's in the Australian media sometimes, so he's no crank - Pastor Bob Cotton). Pastor Bob helped me understand the gravity of what I was facing, walked me through the gospel, explaining that fear is the currency of the kingdom of darkness, and that love is the currency of God's kingdom. He introduced me to the person of Jesus, his inestimable power to save (love trumps fear!), and he prayed for me.
A few hours later, still feeling deeply unsettled and unable to sleep, I decided to get started on Pastor Bob's Bible reading plan that he'd given me, and began reading the New Testament seriously for the first time. I was about to start Romans, as he had suggested, however I noted that there was a bookmark in the Bible that I hadn't noticed before, sitting in Luke. Except it wasn't a bookmark. It was the very last page of the same Bible (no longer attached). Pretty intense things happened after I read those two pages, which included Luke's account of Legion. But I might save those details in case I ever work up the nerve to ask Paul for a randos interview.
But back to John. John seems confident that his grounding in science will prevent this practice from getting away from him. Then there's the issue of John's high status. Great that he doesn't want to be a guru, and being semi-famous sounds like it's been a challenge for him, but there's a more pressing issue than how to manage awkward encounters with fans. Surely he must know that he has quite the degree of influence over his audience/students who, after listening to him speak on this issue, may be intrigued by the prospect of engaging in non-human dialogos and deliberately seek it out.
I understand that John has decided to pursue truth, beauty and meaning from a Neo-Platonic paradigm, and that his difficult upbringing has led to him turning away from Christ as sole redeemer and the only "credentialed" mediator between heaven and earth. But all this talk of divine doubles.. like he's a breath away from talking about the Thelemic Holy Guardian Angel. Is it insulting to suggest that John and his followers should tread carefully into uncanny valleys and liminal places? Yes, Jesus is pretty uncanny. But he isn't an angel. And unfallen angels don't show up on command via protocols, disciplines, techniques, or whatever euphemism is currently in vogue so that people don't get scared off by talk of banishing rituals.
Test the spirits. Please.
Addendum: a few days after my encounter, I was vacuuming the carpet in my bedroom. In the corner, parallel to my bed, is a wooden coat-stand, designed in the shape of a budding tree. And under that stand, propped against the wall, is a sleeping llama plushie (a gift from my mother). Anyhow, I went to move the stand and plushie out of the way to vacuum the corner, but was surprised to see what looked like a small stain on the carpet, about the size and shape of a thumb print. It was dark pink. Looked fresh. My instinct was to leave it alone and not get too hung up on it. Just checked it now (probably for the second time since), and the stain is still there, faint, but now pale grey. My sleeping llama still sits in the same position.
Spirits come when people want something from them. They usually respond with a very good offer, but there is always a catch...
This reminds me of Joseph Smith, who was only looking for gold and got a lot more...
I can only reinforce the maxim of Jesus not to mess with them; directly.
We should pray that their powers and deceptions are released from the people we love and care for.
This is such a great video.
I often struggle when listening to many of my coworkers at my organization. Even though we’re ecumenical, we’re deeply shaped by Latin American Pentecostalism, especially from the Caribbean area of Colombia. Much of those attitudes you’re familiar with I’m sure, Paul. That’s of course not my particular flavor, coming from the quiet and well behaved north. I am however, very aware that these things are real. For me the tension lies in how much attention to pay to these things of a spiritual nature in order to both avoid the modernist ignorance (and I use that in the sense that they ignore) of cessationists, and to also avoid the pitfalls of an almost animist Christianity.
Most of me hopes that this wisdom will just grow with age and maturity, and a little bit wonders if I’ll be able to really hold these things in a proper tension at all.
I’m grateful for your lived experience and willingness to share it.
Bless you, Paul 😁
The God of All Unverse can dispatch Hermes, Odin or Any divine character it wants to reach us. ❤👍 It knows our Language. For it is Language and so so much more.
A couple weeks ago I watched a video on the Institute of Human Ecology channel called "The Weird Future of American Religion." It was a panel discussion in front of a live audience, with Ross Douthat, Tara Isabella Burton, a woman from Plough Quarterly whose name I can't remember, and a priest who does exorcisms. This was a quirky group and the discussion was interesting enough, but I remember two things in particular. There was only one comment below the video at that time, and the guy was really bothered by the presence of the priest talking about demons and exorcism, something about "this conversation is really important, but this is a troubling way to start." Apparently the idea of spirits and demons, etc., was a tad unreasonable (wacky?) and so took away from the seriousness of the topic, in his opinion. So there's that.
The other thing I remember is that the woman from Plough had actually read Malcolm and Simone's huge book (800 pages??!) and gave us a one-minute summary, which is terrifying and really sad, if accurate. She said that the eugenics project of this couple involves not only selecting for health and intelligence, but also for personality (how would you even do that?), in order to make descendants "who will be the most useful to AI" and therefore the "winners" when our AI overlords take over.
Simone is close friends with Grimes, and this milieu appears to be taking the Roko's basilisk argument _very_ seriously. Btw, that panel discussion looks fascinating, thanks for the tip. And it still only has that one skeptical comment! I had to bite my tongue from replying, “Count yourself fortunate that you have yet to encounter a demon.”
If John thinks talking to Hermes is cool, wait till he hears about Jesus.
Honestly though, making a deal with a spirit to give you knowledge/power/fame, sounds familiar...
John 14:6 New King James Version (NKJV) Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
BTW, love the song at the end, Paul. Beautiful.
Thanks for the heads up. I try my best to listen to the end of as many as possible and don't always make it. I wonder how many other post credit cut scenes I've missed?
This video demonstrates exactly the issue with overanalyzing. You tend to negate common sense and intuition. But I suppose the optics of a pastor, whose duty it is to protect their flock, not just talking to but going a step further and promoting individuals influenced by demonic entities and allowing them to have free reign over their community, is a good enough reason to want to intellectualize your way out of personal accountability.
I just think that your desire to have good conversation partners that pay you attention outweighs your concern for what's right because it's that intellectual play that eases your anxieties. That's how Sam and John made their way in (John being the fringe of Peterson's garment also contributed I assume) . In the case of Sam, that was, inadvertently, a good thing that happened. You just haven't yet realized in exactly what way that is.
No. Sam's anti-Trinitarian campaign here is not "a good thing". It represents the same denial of the only Way of salvation and spiritual life, namely the Lord Jesus Christ, God become man for our salvation, the one in whom we know God personally. Sam is loved, respected and genuinely cared for, just as Paul genuinely cares for John. Their anti-Christian ideas are a challenge to Christians to better articulate the truth of the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ to people we love in Christ.
@@anselman3156 We've been through the trinity thing so I'm not going down that rabbit hole but to you, Anselman, I will say: Test every spirit, including the apparition that appeared to you. Galatians 1:8.
@@EmJay2022 I know Jesus enough to recognize Him, and know when He confirms His words in Holy Scripture and fills me with His Spirit and the love of God. The test is applied: that of His words in Holy Scripture. I have found His promises in John 14 to be true.
@@EmJay2022 p.s. It is a good thing to know Sam, and to know you, to the extent that I do by this means. It is good that PVK has made this space for listening to each other, as it is also an opportunity to testify of the Lord Jesus Christ.
@@anselman3156 If that were the fully resurrected and glorified Jesus that appeared to you in your vision, you'd be blinded by his glory, would you not? Yet you claimed it was a dim apparition, if I recall correctly. Hermes presents himself as the mediator between the gods and man. How can you be sure it's not the same spirit as the one that appears to JV? Have you experienced the false light in order to have the contrast to discern the true light?
Regrettably, you say it's good to know us Unitarians in condescension. You claim we're making you better trinitarians by challenging your doctrine, but because of your arrogance and blind adherence to Catholic tradition, you're just becoming more stubborn trinitarians. I say that because if you came to actually understand what you profess to believe, then you'd no longer adhere to it.
Speaking with such deities is a common practice among magicians (I mean Magic). I've been in those spheres. This will likely end poorly for John.
Ouija Boards.
"I've become a Christian!" "I thought we were Episcopalian."
Ask Tucker Carlson about that.
John V's word's about Jesus asking prophet, priest, and king all in one, and then something more, put me in mind of 'No one comes to the Father but by me,' but in a new way I'm finding hard to describe. Jesus is our Home and final destination, and whoever we are, whatever has happened, we will one day find ourselves confronted with him. But that doesn't completely describe it somehow.
It’s amazing how much power and influence these spirits have over us without us even knowing it. That’s why it’s important to rely on the highest good because when left to our own devices we are easily overtaken.
1:15:27 - this is very interesting, multiple dunkings and the spirits in the water. Both of these ideas are ancient - triple baptism is the ancient custom, both East and West. And the blessing of the waters because water is the abyss, the place of chaos, place of hades (see Jonah and also the story of the demoniac and the swine).
It seems to me that meditation, as practiced by the Desert Fathers, is the best defense system against 'spirits'. Evagrius Ponticus has devoted an entire work, “The Praktikos”, to this.
Why meditation? Meditation teaches you to experience the nature of thought as ‘impermanent’, ‘changing’, and ‘qualitatively variable’. In other words, thoughts come and go; they are never static but play as a video and move on a spectrum from extremely unpleasant (hell) to extremely pleasant (heavenly bliss).
Once you become aware, experientially, of the nature of thought, you learn how to not identify, get lost, or become captivated by thought-whether you are ruminating over past events, fantasizing about future events, or finding yourself in 'spiritual' states.
You meditate not to have no thought. The mind thinks thoughts, as the ears hear, and the eyes see. Rather, you meditate to learn to not be "captivated" by unskillful thoughts or thought patterns.
This is a different approach than prayer; it is contemplation. In prayer, you think a thought to counter a thought. This is also a skillful approach. The weakness, however, in this practice is the increased potential for self-deception.
Both skills are necessary, and both skills are worthy of developing, and both should be used in unison.
This corner doesn’t need Herpes passing around.
😂😂😂
ROFL
Best comment😆
Too true
🤣🤣🤣
When I was 5 or 6, a group of fervent working class Catholic adults (my aunt among them) told a story about a young boy who miraculously recovered from cancer and at the heart of it was a visit in the hospital from a mysterious young boy who later turned out to be a young St. John Neumann, patron saint of Philadelphia, PA. On the one hand, even as a child I was deeply suspicious of this story but on the other hand, it left a lasting memory that’s stuck with me until today. What are these particular memories? Spirits? Just throwing it out there. I’m heavy in the “defense against charismatic charlatanism” camp, but am nonetheless fascinated by hints of the supernatural.
50:15 “waterless places…”
Fallen is a great movie. Denzel and John Goodman.
🎶 “Tiiiiiime is on my side, YES IT IS…”
I had totally forgotten about that movie. I think I've seen it (some scenes from the trailer seemed familiar) but now I'm going to check it out again. I've also got Signs in the queue again for a similar reason: some of the themes I didn't take seriously as a materialist/atheist are now seen in a new light.
Beautiful.
Hadn't seen that interview between Jordan and John....🚩🚩🚩Same instinct as you Paul 🙏
IFS and EMDR has come up a lot lately as a friend has been having violent nightmares where entities come to her and she doesn’t know what to do- there’s so much here
I have had such experiences. Calling on the Name of Jesus always drives them away.
@@anselman3156 it’s happening when she’s unconscious and often will get to the in between awake and sleep and feels extreme terror of an entity in her room - but she has at times confronted it in her sleep- but it seems to be persistent 10+ years
@@FoodTruckEmily I have had it from time to time. accompanied by a sleep paralysis. Even when I cannot physically speak the Name of Jesus, I will to do so, and the inner cry works to drive the threat away. It can feel very physical and often with sounds. I don't know why the Lord allows it to happen, but I trust His wisdom in giving me the opportunity to overcome it with His help. It is a reminder of the malevolence of the rebels against God. I think sometimes it happens after I have been making a strong Christian witness. We fight against principalities and powers, and Jesus' Name is powerfully victorious.
Paul, it's fairly easy to aurally distinguish 'secessionist' from 'cessationist' if the long 'a' in the latter is pronounced as it should be. Additionally, although 'secession' is a relatively common word (certainly compared to 'cessationist' and 'cessationism'), 'secessionist' and 'secessionism' are not - as long as you don't mix up the various forms and take care to pronounce a long 'a' when you should , you shouldn't be at much risk of confusing people.
LOL, you're right. I should learn. :)
interesting the connection between this convo/your response and my "psychedelic sojourning". being guided, "what are you seeking?", discerning the spirit, discerning how other/not me it actually was, being profoundly changed after the experience, this DIAlogue occurring on multiple occasions, etcetera.
this was also a recurring conversation each night at the campsite in Chino. how wise/foolish or safe/dangerous are such psychedelic endeavors and how capable could we actually be to not be manipulated by such potential creatures if they were nefarious. especially when access to the infinitely more powerful and trustworthy Spirit of Truth is freely available. and on top of that the struggle between destination and process and the common desire to bypass process for result and how this intrinsically prevents the discovery or development of wisdom.
"multi-factor authentication" - genius metaphor
Is the world being re-enchanted or are the scales falling from our eyes? The world could've never exisit without spirits, rather peoples pride wanted to make of themselves an island.
I do not trust these spirits, Paul. Like a good son of Ulster I'll share my whiskey with one of the good folk, but unless he's declaring Christ as king we'll have no further parlance.
🙏💚thanks for working trough all this ,I needed guidence ...and cried to the wonderful music
So much of our differences within orthodox (little o) Christianity comes down to how do we get Jesus “on us”. Or what is the method or manner or material (I.e. water or Faith or bread or wine or words) that God uses in his providence to bury us into Christ. At the end of the day, the song at the end says it all… I don’t have all the answers and I’m prone to despair but when I rise “give me Jesus”.
I’m with Peter when he says in John 6:68 - “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”
I’ve never looked into IFS but as someone who’s both studied psychology and been in therapy, this seems awfully familiar. The last therapist I saw kept trying to put my in touch with other parts of myself, in order to reintegrate them. He seemed particularly interested in me making contact with myself as a child, as if this child had a separate personality to my own.
I’m wondering if this modality arose out of the challenges of treating people with what used to be termed “multiple personality disorder” (now Dissociative Identity Disorder). And if so, is there not a risk that clients develop splits where previously there weren’t? I’ve seen both faked DID and genuine DID. I think it’s likely that the latter group would benefit from this kind of modality. Everyone else? I shudder to think.
John needs prayer!
He has been tempted like in Genesis 3:5....
All he has to do is
commune with a demon so he can be like Socrates.
Thats the lie.
When you're praying for John Vervaeke don't forget to also pray for all the people who have gone to him seeking help and guidance. Has he said how long he's been talking to Hermes? What if he's been talking to him for several years?
He has been talking to these entities for a long time, Lord have mercy. Pray for him, prayer is stronger than any demon.
Automatic writing from Seth via Jane Roberts.
A question for TLC, is there much of a difference between Hermes coming into John's psyche and Harry Potter coming into J.K.Rowlings? 🤔 PS. apparently Harry appeared as a boy wizard to J.K when she was delayed on a train traveling from Manchester to London King's Cross in 1990. At around the same time a grown up wizard appeared to author Jim Butcher also named Harry (Dresden), who went on to write the Dresden files about him.
Very likely there is no difference between this Hermes manifestation and Harry Potter however there's a big difference between what JK Rowling does and what Vervaeke does. Rowling holds herself out as a writer of fiction and her stories are for entertainment. She doesn't claim to have help for people other than momentary distraction. Vervaeke holds himself out as an expert in cognitive science, doing scientific research to address the meaning crisis and presumably this Hermes thing is part of that. Based on what Vervaeke says, a person in real psychological pain could reasonably think they could go to Vervaeke's work to find real help. Is there real help there for such a person or is it fictional BS?
Maybe part of the difference: th-cam.com/users/clipUgkxr11-7ebiEPXnrmYRAMj7bnj7m0zJK8N4?si=FFCTAcSFQwVg8RNY
Ooof. You weren't kidding about the comments on this one.
Vervaeke, Michael Martin and Grail Country are united in the same project, which is the old theosophical one of using names and concepts from non Christian religions and weaving them into a pseudo spiritual system to rival Christianity. It is a man made system which pursues the self apotheosis of man, to make man god, a pantheistic system which denies God and makes everyone god, This was manifest in Grail Country's conversation on Saturday, where the uniqueness of Jesus Christ's Incarnation as God become man was denied, and it was asserted that every human being is the only begotten son of God. That was done in connection to a misuse of a reference to some Christian writing which celebrated the privilege that only the Christian has in the union with God in Christ, of sharing in the divine sonship. The theosophical dogma is that everyone and everything is god by nature, all is god so there is no God as such. There is the repeated denial of the distinction between God and His creation. All such false systems are based on the rejection of God as He has revealed Himself in the way recorded in the Christian Scriptures, and of the Christian life as being an elevation above the natural to supernatural life of partaking of the divine nature. Their false system is that of those who do not understand spiritual things as they do not have the Spirit of God by union with Jesus Christ. They do not experience life in God because they reject Jesus Christ as the unique incarnation of God. All their combining of pagan gods and philosophies, of cabbalism and hermeticism etc is a pseudo spiritual substitute for the Christian life in the Spirit of God, the filial relationship to God by union with Christ who alone is God become man, and Saviour.
Polytheism is persistent but also weak. Better than materialism … just.
@@williambranch4283 Choose neither of two evils. Being outside of Christ is equally bad whichever form it takes.
32:55 I'm beginning to think PVK does the same thing. Use the Spirit of geometry to deal with God #1... use the spirit of geometry to deal with inanimate things. Sounds a lot like equating God with nonliving creation to me. Use the spirit of finesse to deal with God #2, use the spirit of finesse to deal with persons and personalities. Sounds like he's saying everyone is God to me.
@@rachaelgibson I have shared before my concerns about PVK's tendency to express dislike of talking of supernatural, but really God is the only true supernatural. He does tend to indicate a sort of naturalism and impersonalism.
Yes exactly and here’s another observation… none of these fine people have seen fit to integrate themselves into Christ’s one holy Catholic, apostolic and Orthodox Church. They, including PVK, remain outside the historic Church of the first millennium. PVK likes to minimize the significance of ecclesial affiliation. He regards the differences between Orthodoxy and the other Christian groups as spiritually insignificant and inconsequential, like different flavors of ice cream. Should we be surprised? Not saying he isn’t bright, insightful, gifted, good, genuine in his faith in Christ and doing good work that helps us… but he is not Orthodox and being Orthodox, being not just theologically correct but also sacramentally united to Christ in his Church, makes a real spiritual and ontological difference. He doesn’t see reality the same way or have the same experience. He doesn’t have the mind of the Fathers and Saints, not yet at least. May God guide him.
I was waiting for your take on this as we discussed it in our Estuary WhatsApp group. I personally wasn't especially worried for John as he seems to have a good head on his shoulders. I like how John stretches back beyond the beginning of Christianity to bring other philosophies into the discussion but tried to integrate them with Christianity. If they are true and good they are Christian.
I'd also be interested to hear Jonathan's take on it. Maybe in his next Q & A we can try to run it past him.
The song at the end was beautiful
Glad you made it to the end.
The inward response has become stronger since the rise of Modernity. Lewis, the dinosaur that he was, picked up on this I think. The Divine comedy has Hermes (Mercury) in it. But not only in it, he is the spirit of an entire level in the Paradisio. Lewis does something similar with the gods/spirits in his Ransom Trilogy. The relationship between the spirits and their spheres is part of the great dance of the cosmos. Where the reaction comes for me is the placement of the spirit. It's probably safe to say that Lucy had a proper reaction to Bacchus when he comes roaring through Narnia. She comments that she would not want to meet him apart from Aslan, this is wise. So too, Hermes is in proper relation with God in the Comedy. If one were to reverse the placement, one ought to have some fear. It's a little too flat to say that Christians are worried about spirits. Better, I think, is to say that Christians are worried about spirits when they are not properly ordered or in proper relationship to Jesus.
Stopped listening to Mr “nontheist” when he said he entered into a “dialogical relationship” with Hermes, who wanted to be for him what the Daimon was for Socrates 😳
I’d suggest paying JV and his journey the same respect he pays toward us Christian “theists”. He’ll never read these but it’d be nice for us to keep up the spiritual hygiene and great discussion of the previous comments.
@@patrickdonabedian3323 Hermes is a demon, and a _theos,_ yet JV calls himself a nontheist.
@@justicebjorke2790 fair enough re nontheist. Re Demon, it’s derived from the word Daemon but they’re not the same thing. He shared his phenomenology in good faith so I’m inclined to give him or anyone a charitable ear. Good to hear your perspective too :)
@@patrickdonabedian3323 I know the difference between daemon and demon. But “all the gods of the nations are demons.” The pagan gods are real, but they’re evil fallen angels.
Vervaeke talks more about Hermes in his relatuvely recentconversation with Seth Allison on internal family systems.
John mentioned that "socratic wisdom" was on offer, but didn't mention the price.
Children's Play-doe
Thank you!🙋♂️
The re-enchantment project is working
Well, you could say that. :)
The evangelical Christian might well react to Vervaeke with "Heresy! Demonic Possession!" And yet, we all are occupied by thoughts, memories or "spirits" of some kind. Whether we give them a name like "Hermes" or not - we all have something of it inside of us. BUT: as Christians we are guided by 1. Corinthians 3,16 and Matthew 12, 43f. We know that these spirits can inhabit us, which is why we need the holy Spirit to dwell in our body as His temple. No need to judge Vervaeke for this.
@@phlebas9204very true
1:13:50 The conservative impulse...neither good or bad per se.
I would encourage the more conservatively minded and in temperament to acknowledge that sometimes grace and growth and "the further up, further in" is found in the chaos or the unknown or the "scary".
The cave you fear to enter holds the answer that you seek.
Holy Neanderthal, Luke-man ;-)
Chaos = Life coming at you
@phlebas9204 I definitely was not thinking of you in particular when I said this. Or I don't remember the context exactly. I don't think the Chesterton quote about fences in the field applies to what I'm saying. Chesterton didn't say, never take down old fences.
I'm saying being temperamentally conservative or liberal is not a good or faithfulness per se. But institutional religion (and irreligion, mind you) DOES equate fidelity to the conservative and systemically excludes the liberal or fringe.
Am I missing something? What exactly did Hermes want Vervaeke to say? Because if it's just more technobabble, then what's the big deal?
My first reaction to hearing this was a chill. My thought was that what John is doing sounds dangerous for the soul, but since Christ now rules the principalities and powers, John might be ok if in his dialogue with Hermes, he acknowledges that Christ rules Hermes. Then Hermes might be just acting in a proper role as the winged angel he harkens back to. He might be an instrument of God's work in John's life. I recall some videos (perhaps with Pageau or Bishop Barron talking about monastic practices) suggesting that spiritual guidance by an elder is an important safeguard with stuff like this. Modern psychotherapists may not have the spiritual wisdom to provide that guidance.
1:05:40 I’m curious what went through the mind of the first time viewer of the pvk channel when he heard you mention the Dominican Republic In this moment with no frame of historical pvk understanding. Something like “What does the Dominican Republic have to do with this”
This thought is probably not that significant but I found it interesting.
I would have “heard” really nice cigars…
Recession of modernity is a good expression. I am seeing this a lot with people I work with…a lot of people interested in ‘part work’ as well in the context of IFS.
What is IFS?
@@FierBarca1899 Internal Family Systems…it is a counseling model.
Thank you. @@aarondutil3077
I’ll be curious to hear if John says more about this. I’ve only seen the clips here, but IFS is about having conversations with parts of yourself. Does he think he is talking to the actual Spirit of Hermes or an internal part of himself that is trying to guide him towards what Hermes represents to him?
Nice song at the end.
This is leading us to the big reveal where Paul announces he is having regular conversations with C.S.Lewis as his spirit guide :D
LOL. Only through his books. :)
"The defense system shows up"
I've been going through Pageau's picture of St. Christopher as a dog (a domesticated wolf, complete with teeth, which the depictions do not neglect). The defense system shows up, as a fringe figure.
However, Christ-topher is also liminal -- he bears Christ, or guides people from fringes, if I'm understanding this properly. Which I'm probably not. Patience and listening will probably show the answer.
Hermès as messenger is precisely what is established by John the Baptist in concerns of Christ: behold, I send my messenger before thy face, the voice of one crying in the wilderness, make ye straight the paths of the Lord (in his always once again direct confrontation of the established churches of themselves, with their certain historic foundation, which has, by then, returned).
Hence, the time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
King, prophet, priest, and apostle are the figurative focuses of the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John respectively; and they are all rooted and grounded on Christ, showing the foundations of scripture in judgment, each time, once again, on every New World advance of an always particular new Nation, and finally Universal Civilization and Empire.
Matthew, therefore, goes back to the genealogy of Old World kings in Abraham from which we came in colonization; while Mark is the beginning of the gospel of Christ, in a given generation coming at those finally universal heights or horizons of Empire.
Luke then becomes the priestly remembrances of the prophet connected to the Lord, precisely in the epical advance in the wilderness of such always particular new Nations and Universal Civilizations.
John then becomes the apostolic foundation nationally of conversion, then dividing such a nation as Christ and anti-Christ distinctions through the wholly gathered communities on which Christianity originated over against the otherwise privately propertied foundations of the Empire.
The church and pastor’s roles, as I see them, Paul, isn’t simply to talk to those to whom others will not talk - (who made them judge? Or is God contained by the church, when the earth is the Lord’s, and the fullness thereof, the world and all that therein is) - but to give public voice and life to those in society from whom such is robbed, as the very right in all a public testimony concerning God - (should not a people seek for the living unto the dead, to the law of the oneness of all mankind, and to the testimony directly of each and all therein? If they speak not according to this word, there is no light in them).
The churches problem is that it thinks it is the Spirit of God, when it is the Flesh.
The Spirit of God infuses all human history and culture; the church is its Soul transcending the millennia, from Universal Civilization to Universal Civilization, and the respective judgments or dispensations therein.
The church claims Jesus unto itself, as if it has Christ in its pocket: we be children unto Abraham - as if those who call upon Jesus outside of such a fallen tradition have no part in Christ, and no validity.
But neither height nor depth, power nor principality, church or state, can separate any of us from the love which is in Christ Jesus, in whom, God then becomes the direct moral accountability of all men linguistically unique to our species since our very dawn therein.
For Christ is all, and in you all, if you have so believed.
You seem confused but confident
I don’t think we should be particularly alarmed about Vervaeke’s dialogue with Hermes since he is an unbeliever. I am convinced many people have dialogues with spirits on a regular basis, but our modernistic / rational brain can’t perceive the depths of the spirit realm and thus can’t be aware of the spirits influence on our thinking.
What we SHOULD be wary of is validating or encouraging in any way having dialogue with any spirit outside of those aligned with Christ. This should be a hard rule for us as Christians , and a warning to non-believers is warranted if we really love them.
Having been captivated by the CS Lewis Space trilogy and Pageau around the same time about 5 or 6 years ago it’s a little uncanny to see how increasingly the girdle of modernity seems to be fading. I can’t help but wonder if what Jane is told by Ransom after seeing the earthly Venus in a vision is what John and others like him must grapple with as the girdle fades.
Likewise I can’t help but feel we’ll see a return of charismatic Saints who in Christ are given authority over the principalities and the powers.
Re: defense mechanisms and comparing John with Sam; while I've always felt a love for the Spirit that is in Sam, my walls have always been up against John, despite his sympathetic and genuine character.
Hermes/Mercury the right-hand of Zeus/Sun is analogous to Michael, the one who pierced the dragon of chaos. Hermes was associated with with the taming of the chaotic places between civilazations in order to facilitate the transfer of wealth and knowledge between them. If you want to read this charitably, Hermes might be opening up pathways by which the kings of the Earth bring their riches into the New Jerusalem. Less charitably, he contributes to the process of disintegration by opening up new routes that divert the kings from offering their tribute to the Kingdom.
48:48 - PowerPoint Begins
52:52 - Bounty Board
Will the Lord Jesus' Name be mentioned at the coming Washington gathering, to make up for its pointed omission at the last one, as remarked upon by Fr Eric (with seeming satisfaction)? You know it's the Name before which devils flee away.
Do you mean the Florida gathering? The Symbolic World Summit?
@@PaulVanderKlay I must clear my ears and listen again. I thought you said Washington here, but perhaps it was the mention of Michael Martin that made me think of the Washington conference that I referred to. Whatever, I hope there will be no hesitation in talking of Jesus, the real Jesus of Scripture, that is.
I think the courageous ones among us need to wrestle with this idea that the ancient spirits are reawakening. I know this triggers that "allergy" in many of us but it might be very important to find out what these spiritual realms really hold beyond the stories and fears we have.
Just like mountain climbing and deep ocean diving isn't for everyone, these realms are not for everyone. But good people like John Vervaeke are vital because they seem so naturally drawn to the job.
We have no idea what we'll find or how dangerous it'll be but someone has to do it.
If we leave these realms to the worst among us I think that's even wise. Isn't that an abandonment of our responsibility to participate in a part of God's creation? If Jesus is lord over heaven and earth, there is no other spirit creature that can userpe him in that realm. If we enter with caution but not fear, like the diver or the climber, we might discover a whole new domain of reality that glorifies God further.
Gets a chill when see the great entusiasme John wanders into the Silicon sages, Hermes landscape with...
Something Vervaeke said reminded me of one of my Grandfathers stories, he fought in WWII. Granddad said, during training, they'd start you off running at a punch bag to bayonet. Then the punch bag became a scarecrow to bayonet. Then the scarecrow became human like thing to bayonet, etc. Then finally you get to bayonet real humans. I'm sure Vervaeke has a weird word for this. Acclimatising? Normalisation?
There's a book about that title On Killing. About how armies train people to break down their inhibitions.
Lacans 3 registers have been most helpful for me for connecting your insights. The imaginary/symbolic/Real are an interlocking chain structure that makes up human subjectivity. To pull one apart would be to pull the person apart. but these structures move around with what takes place in the persons life cause what Lacan believes is the object casue of desire to also move. the unconscious is a huge part in this which makesnit so troubling
Second round on this one...
Raised Methodist, now attending nondenominational. l have a prayer language (tongues). Thanks for not coining me as demonic. Some do 🫤
Per The Didache ... glossolalia has two ... a speaker and an interpreter. Do you do your own interpretation?
The body language between Jordan and John is really interesting. John makes himself as small as he can while talking about Hermes, without pulling back. The introvert, I suppose. He's not afraid of the conversation, but he's not wanting to be... in the spotlight, maybe?
Every time I hear Vervaeke talk, especially with Paul, I'm struck by how careful he is with his words. Not to be manipulative, but to make sure he is speaking as kindly as possible about others who believe differently
when someone prayers to the trinitarian God, how many persons are they praying to?
3
the discord link in the description says invalid when I try to go to it. Is this a me problem or a link problem?
Don't go chasin' waterfalls
Please stick to the rivers and the lakes that you're used to
V says that these entities exist dialogically, which means that Christians keep encountering deamons because that what they expect to find.
"Cessationism" is a reaction to Modernity, and a defense against the "God of the gaps" accusation.
Although if you look at the idea, "If I saw a real miracle, I'd assume I'd gone mad", that hurts their credibility as openminded and rational.
The closed minded think they are open minded. The scoffers, mockers and authorities straw man miracles.
Great conversation. "My father isn't in me in a physical sense." I think genetics plays more into our actions than we want to admit too. I've seen an adopted kid had very very little interaction with their parents, who were self destructive, and the kid end up doing the same things! Even though they were raised in a house that was not at all giving them mental mappings that would move them in that direction. The only answer in my mind is that their DNA dictates action as well... maybe... it certainly seems that way.
I’m tempted to copy and paste the comment I left under the original interview. Algo was having none of it and did that deceptive thing of letting you _think_ you’ve left a comment, when in actuality that comment is invisible to everyone but yourself. Even after rewriting it several times.
50:01 or simply praying for others. approach with care and wisdom. Thy will not mine be done.
Hermes Trismegistus? I will take the Coptic Orthodox Church ;-)
Thank you for bringing attention to this topic. I have been researching Internal Family Systems in the attempt to see Eastern Orthodoxy within the Mach Band of edges that are not cutting. That is to say, difference can shed light upon the emotions, directions, and responses to things without being a wildfire; it could be the rain on the just and the unjust. Another way to see the interface of external and internal is as a field in terms of a metric space (in other words, a measure of reality which requires absolute value). Perhaps, Dr. Peterson would call this a value structure by which the human organism perceives the world.
So much in both the Old and New Testaments about measurement, measuring line, measuring up, accounting, covering, the cord of measuring, etc. In the Old Testament, the word often translated as atonement is the same word for the pitch that is used to waterproof the ark, the covering that makes the ark of safety effective. The drawing together of the waters in Genesis 1 is the same word as the cord of the measuring line. So much there…
@@TheMeaningCode Fascinating. I believe the route to etymologies is the root of understanding. What I mean is: (and I might send you an email soon on this, when my thoughts are a bit more in outline) the etymology of a word is the description of what combination the user of the separate bits (such as the pre- being a separate bit from -fix, for ex-ample, from ex- (out of) and -ample (to enlarge, rise up, go down), so the out-of-en-large-ment is what the word "example" can be seen to point to, as the particles of brush strokes in a painting can be seen to point to, and indicate, the whole. The whatever-is-aimed-at in the doing (do- and -ing, which indicates an action that is ongoing (on- and -going on what?) You see? The making of words is a story be- -ing told.
@@TheMeaningCode the algorithm put lines through all my separations. It does not seem to "think" they are meaningful.
@@TheMeaningCode To restate the analogy without separation: as the brush strokes indicate the appearance of the whole, oncoming and incoming, so too the merger of words into bigger words (we call them compound) brings to light the whole appearance, or an inequality of separate values that enjoy space together, the space of which is a metric for their distance to be real and really traversed.
Pastor Paul, I finally had an insight why you might be so into this dude Jordan Peterson, if in your relavance realization he is a latter day John Calvin figure; would he not tend to dominate your salience landscape?
LOL. JBP is more Luther than Calvin. :)
Worth tieing all of this to what's happening when this (mostly christian) side of the corner engage with Islam. Great video Paul.
7:20 I was just struck by the thought, this is a veneration tool. Not a tool for the mystical mind, but for the materialist mind. This is a door knob of sorts. It’s an essentially Transjective doorway with a Transjective knob. With a Transjective chamber. So the mystical mind could walk up to the door and it might be a Christian icon or a hymn or a Bible passage or a camp fire in the night with singing and dancing. They can access the doorknob, turn it and walk in. The EMDR is the doorknob for the scientific mind. The material measurable forensic Mind of truth.
Autohypnosis of ... My Mother The Car ;-)
7.45. "... residual pieces of other family members..." Anyone here done Family Constellations therapy? It's not just introjects that trip us up, we're colonised by our families, past and present, before we're even born.
The cloud of witnesses, biological and cultural, are a mighty legion.
Epigenetics comes to bear
Great video! What keeps coming up for me is the question: what is the difference between a god and an angel? As much as excluded middle Protestantism may hate it, a lot of the Old Testament looks a lot different if every appearance after an angel end with the "Nanana! I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" Fingers in the ears thing. The obvious answer to me is that angels refuse worship. I would be very interested in what other people think about this question. Try not to get too triggered everybody, but Hermes is the messenger, and we all know what the word angel means.
I am not of course, saying don't be careful.