It is, but at least for the ravagers it feels like they need it. Maybe make some of the operatives that roll to "get back up" have to pre game pay for it as an equipment instead of automatically doing it
It’s still crazy to me that Hierotek really did rise from the ashes of crap they were to s tier robot overlords. Kroot will get fixed next right guys? Right?
As a computer game designer I think balancing by terrain is imho really stupid, but I wouldn't expect anything more from gw. Each team should have enough tools available to succeed on every type of terrain, but it should be up to players' skill to assemble their team according to the situation. Currently there is usually just one best list for each team you take every time regardless of the terrain, a lot of dead weight on each team, useless models and rules.
Great video, love your insight. Totally with you on the fellgor, frenzy needs a rework. And i'm on the boat that competitive should basically be open map only at this point, too many matchup are basically decided before the game by itd or beta decima So i'm one of the two podiums of hunter clade on your last stats video/article. I think hunter clade has the problems that you said. We can do these few specific tricks. An we are good at punishing mistakes, which the better the opponent is the fewer there are. And there is another couple of things. Our mistakes get punished hard too. We are not a full specialist kill team, we got two gunners and the rustalkers, if we lose the gunner that is next to the scan then the scan is basically another generic vanguard now and we lose a lot of firepower. If we lose the leader we are out of control edict(to be fair this almost never happens until t3 or t4 where de leader has to actually do something besides control edict). And thats on top of all the skittarii half of the team being very squishy. We don't break rules besides a single ignore obscuring and some traversal with rustalkers, but that's about it. Most kill team now can have multiple ways of ignore obscuring or conseal, or have super conceal or free dashes. I'm not even counting pursuers here since against good players what usually happens is that i just don't get targets on t1 to make good use of it, it's not rare that i use the ploy and i don't get to use the 3 order flips. Mind you, the threat of it is still good, but it's nothing crazy. And the balance patches we have got have been kinda lazy in some ways. For all intents and purposes command override is not a ploy most of the time. It basically a command reroll that i have to chose to use before rolling the dice, that's pretty bad, sometime you can use it for aggression doctrine but in my experience that's not something that happens often, so we effectively have lost that stratagem, because it's useless. Mind you i still think hunter clade is solid, we can match our melee operatives against most opponents, rad-saturating make operatives survive in melee when they totally shouldn't have. We have seek and destroy we have a decent faction tac op. We can bring both good ranged firepower and good melee and press were we are better that the opponent. The main problem is that we are too fair, we don't have an overwhelming amount of operatives, we don't have ways to break the rules in any notable way so we end hoping that the opponent makes a mistake that we can punish hard enough to win.
Love this, but it's so strange to me that people keep calling the visionaries free parry just a scratch. Rolls off the tongue but it's a pretty different mechanic. Maybe that's just me though
As much as it pains me to do it to my ride or die team, I think Hunter Clade are B tier now. They remain the yardstick by which balanced amd and fair kill teams can be judged, but they're just not A tier any longer. As any magic the gathering player can tell you, fair magic might be the ideal, but it doesn't win tournaments.
Question for kommando's players. He mentioned that good players are dropping the breacha boy and taking an extra boy. I was hearing you drop the flamethrower guy after chopper nerf. What's the reasoning for dropping breacha since cant it move through terrain with dynamite still? Which operative is getting the sledgehamer now?
@@trickshaw thanks for the info! Just curious what you mean by 4/5 + relentless since the regular boy choppers don’t have relentless. Playing a narrative campaign now where I subbed out the burna for a regular boy. Breacher has been used to Burst through walls and try and kill wounded elites under 5-10 wounds. I’m thinking of him as a suicide bomber that can maybe do some sneaky back capping.
I dunno maybe I'm just lucky or playing against inexperienced players but so far my tau compendium kill team off a support turret, 5 fire warriors(1 of which is a shas 'o) and 3 stealthsuits have won all games it has played. So was suprised at its E rating
Played Heirotek Circle against Fellgor the other week. Had a great time, was slowly pulling ahead (soullessly) It felt VERY Kill Team 2018 ie “wow we’ve made some attacks and rolled LOTS of dice aaaand everyone is still around” 😅
You mention Felgor is only S tier which is easy to learn; based on your "new player" video, I assume you mean Kommandos take time / effort to learn for competitive purposes? Reason I ask is, I'm new to KT, was hoping to spend my summer learning the ropes with my Mandrakes. They are by far the most interesting to me. But everybody says you have to start simple, so I set aside Nightmare and picked up the starter set. First game with Kommandos has me worried I'm gonna have to spend my entire summer playing with them, just to understand the game basics and their equipment etc. I'm not interested in competitive; do you think I can risk learning KT with "what I like"? Or safer to start w Kommandos?
@@CanYouRollaCrit I'm pretty concerned about model creep in Kill-Team; it used to be you could tell someone they can get into the game with 6-10 models (not counting rosters)--nowadays it seems if you don't have more than 10, just stay home (with the possible exception of the new Nightlords). EDIT: To expand on this a bit, I don't want Kill-Team to push itself out of a skirmish level game, and I certainly don't want turns to end up taking as long as they do in Bighammer because you have the same number of units to consider, they're just 1 model instead of however many they would be in Bighammer. I want Kill-Team to stay quick, snappy, fun and free from being mired down in unnecessary complexity.
Thanks for the update, glad to hear about the fine tuning, even if it's not perfect! It does make me wonder about next season. Are we going to continue with Balanced Dataslates, new bespoke teams, and a new environment, but the same core rules? Or is GW going to redesign the whole thing as it's been about 3 years now? I really hope it's the former...
alright how many nerfs will Kommandos take to the point they are not fun to play AND drop off the tierlist like a grandma slipping off the stairs? like holy hell Vet guard take a small amount of nerfs once and they dropped a bit. Kommandos got nerfed again and again but still on top? as a kommando player i fear the day we got nerfed to a grot level incompetence. thank god i am thinking of getting a hierotek team (nightmare box and trenchcoat votann aside)
Free traverse on the whole team for free is a horrible mechanic, against Harlequins it makes barricade placement almost irrelevant and therefore takes away an interesting part of the game.
Exaction squad shoud be more addressed by GW, its really confusing how a KT that's been doing statistically bad for months has not seen a really game changing buff that at least make them playable. From the gunner to the 2/2 Weapons its just sad at this point.
Funnily Exaction counters Fellgor really well. I played a game against them on ITD with lots of phosphor lumens and he pretty much got trapped by my subductors while my shotguns blasted him to pieces.
I’m just back from the student Nationals in Glasgow. KT was just a very small part of the event, 6 of us total. Across 4 games, our Hive Fleet player ultimately dominated, going 4-0 with great objective control and frustratingly good use of cover and the Conceal order. Personally to lost him 14-8. In retrospect I waited a turn too long with the high-risk flanking strikes that ended up very being very effective. Great, challenging game and a friendly, if a bit laywer-y, opponent.
Tzaangor heavy is very much a trap into many teams. Most melee hordes and elites have more trouble into a 3-2-2 build. A warpcoven player will do best when they know when to use either
@CanYouRollaCrit haven't played every match yet but I think elves can give them trouble (HOA was my only loss this weekend) but I think those matches are surmountable. Fellgor is still an issue and Heirotek can give you trouble if their reanimation pops off. Into shooting hordes I take 2-1-6 Melee hordes and elites usually get 3-2-2 When in doubt I run 3-1-4
![Drukhari vs. Votann [Kill Team Battle Report]](/img/n.gif)
Kasrkin gatekeeping is very fitting since they’re cadians🤔🤣
No elites shall pass 😂
Brother I need you to get your glasses tightened
I...what?
They keep slipping down in the video! (This isn't a criticism I love your work)
Boooo... It's my favorite thing about his videos, oh that and the great Killteam content. But mostly wonderfully timed glasses pushes.
No, why did you tell him!? Seeing him do the Log Horizon glasses push every other minute was hilarious.
@@Apepz0rz the problem is that it's probably automatic at this point. Tight glass or not. ;)
Notable that two of the s tier teams make you kill their operatives twice. It's such an OP mechanic.
Yeah it's kinda wild how numerous it is now
It is, but at least for the ravagers it feels like they need it. Maybe make some of the operatives that roll to "get back up" have to pre game pay for it as an equipment instead of automatically doing it
Just need to put this one out there: I HAVE BEEN PLAYING HIEROTEK SINCE BEFORE THEIR ORIGINAL DATASLATE BUFF.
I'm a long time Hierotek player since 2018
It’s still crazy to me that Hierotek really did rise from the ashes of crap they were to s tier robot overlords.
Kroot will get fixed next right guys?
Right?
Pray4Kroot
I dream of the day s tier will no longer exist
Unfortunately there will always be an S Tier ):
Oh my…. You are fast! Thank you man for your hard work!
Aha no worries
O muy H
I am happy that they made heirotek and Kasrkin playable.
As a computer game designer I think balancing by terrain is imho really stupid, but I wouldn't expect anything more from gw. Each team should have enough tools available to succeed on every type of terrain, but it should be up to players' skill to assemble their team according to the situation. Currently there is usually just one best list for each team you take every time regardless of the terrain, a lot of dead weight on each team, useless models and rules.
To an extent, although balancing by terrain is bad
I agree that I think we're in a pretty good place right now, thankfully I just play casually though with a small group
Ah nice!
Great video, love your insight.
Totally with you on the fellgor, frenzy needs a rework. And i'm on the boat that competitive should basically be open map only at this point, too many matchup are basically decided before the game by itd or beta decima
So i'm one of the two podiums of hunter clade on your last stats video/article. I think hunter clade has the problems that you said. We can do these few specific tricks. An we are good at punishing mistakes, which the better the opponent is the fewer there are. And there is another couple of things.
Our mistakes get punished hard too. We are not a full specialist kill team, we got two gunners and the rustalkers, if we lose the gunner that is next to the scan then the scan is basically another generic vanguard now and we lose a lot of firepower. If we lose the leader we are out of control edict(to be fair this almost never happens until t3 or t4 where de leader has to actually do something besides control edict). And thats on top of all the skittarii half of the team being very squishy.
We don't break rules besides a single ignore obscuring and some traversal with rustalkers, but that's about it. Most kill team now can have multiple ways of ignore obscuring or conseal, or have super conceal or free dashes. I'm not even counting pursuers here since against good players what usually happens is that i just don't get targets on t1 to make good use of it, it's not rare that i use the ploy and i don't get to use the 3 order flips. Mind you, the threat of it is still good, but it's nothing crazy.
And the balance patches we have got have been kinda lazy in some ways. For all intents and purposes command override is not a ploy most of the time. It basically a command reroll that i have to chose to use before rolling the dice, that's pretty bad, sometime you can use it for aggression doctrine but in my experience that's not something that happens often, so we effectively have lost that stratagem, because it's useless.
Mind you i still think hunter clade is solid, we can match our melee operatives against most opponents, rad-saturating make operatives survive in melee when they totally shouldn't have. We have seek and destroy we have a decent faction tac op. We can bring both good ranged firepower and good melee and press were we are better that the opponent. The main problem is that we are too fair, we don't have an overwhelming amount of operatives, we don't have ways to break the rules in any notable way so we end hoping that the opponent makes a mistake that we can punish hard enough to win.
Love this, but it's so strange to me that people keep calling the visionaries free parry just a scratch. Rolls off the tongue but it's a pretty different mechanic. Maybe that's just me though
Closest easy allegory aha
As much as it pains me to do it to my ride or die team, I think Hunter Clade are B tier now. They remain the yardstick by which balanced amd and fair kill teams can be judged, but they're just not A tier any longer. As any magic the gathering player can tell you, fair magic might be the ideal, but it doesn't win tournaments.
Yeah that's fair. They are very good but having no legal game breaking mechanics or ways to counter others severely hurts
Surprised there's no admech bespoke team yet. Specially since some factions have more than one!
Damn, I just brought some hand of archon, a team too powerful will ruin the fun. But never mind, I just want to play the characters I liked.
Question for kommando's players. He mentioned that good players are dropping the breacha boy and taking an extra boy. I was hearing you drop the flamethrower guy after chopper nerf. What's the reasoning for dropping breacha since cant it move through terrain with dynamite still? Which operative is getting the sledgehamer now?
I'm still not sure what the point of swapping anything for standard boys are after the choppy nerf
You go 3 boyz now, put Dynamite on the Nob who is a better delivery sytem now. Sledgehammer goes on Rokkit or Dakka Boy
You never took burns boy before, you continue not taking him now)
Yeah not worth taking Burna with choppa change
@@trickshaw thanks for the info! Just curious what you mean by 4/5 + relentless since the regular boy choppers don’t have relentless. Playing a narrative campaign now where I subbed out the burna for a regular boy. Breacher has been used to Burst through walls and try and kill wounded elites under 5-10 wounds. I’m thinking of him as a suicide bomber that can maybe do some sneaky back capping.
What do you make of blades and scouts going undefeated at a 4 round event in Socal?
It's only one event sadly but a nice showing regardless
I dunno maybe I'm just lucky or playing against inexperienced players but so far my tau compendium kill team off a support turret, 5 fire warriors(1 of which is a shas 'o) and 3 stealthsuits have won all games it has played. So was suprised at its E rating
Oh nice! In general they're pretty bad
Can't wait buff for my Harlequins T_T
Depends on what happens with events aha
I want my fly back 😭😭😭
Maybe next edition 😅
Played Heirotek Circle against Fellgor the other week. Had a great time, was slowly pulling ahead (soullessly)
It felt VERY Kill Team 2018 ie “wow we’ve made some attacks and rolled LOTS of dice aaaand everyone is still around” 😅
Haha the nostalgia
You mention Felgor is only S tier which is easy to learn; based on your "new player" video, I assume you mean Kommandos take time / effort to learn for competitive purposes?
Reason I ask is, I'm new to KT, was hoping to spend my summer learning the ropes with my Mandrakes. They are by far the most interesting to me. But everybody says you have to start simple, so I set aside Nightmare and picked up the starter set. First game with Kommandos has me worried I'm gonna have to spend my entire summer playing with them, just to understand the game basics and their equipment etc.
I'm not interested in competitive; do you think I can risk learning KT with "what I like"? Or safer to start w Kommandos?
Kommandos just have more tools but are great for beginners too.
You can start with Mandrakes, they'll just take longer to learn is all
@@CanYouRollaCrit Thanks man, I appreciate you 🤘
No worries, happy to help (:
Nice to see Mandrakes up there, Not that i can purchase any yet, nevermind. Salty who me?
Understandable
Would it be possible for you to put green / up and red / down arrows if a team moves in power due?
Maybe? I'll see if I can do it for the next one
What puts Novitiates so much high than Ecclesiarchy? Thanks.
Better rules, abilities, and dice modification abilities basically
I'm a little surprised by how long Elite teams are being left to languish. I really hope they see an update before the new edition.
Yeah it's kinda wild tbh
@@CanYouRollaCrit I'm pretty concerned about model creep in Kill-Team; it used to be you could tell someone they can get into the game with 6-10 models (not counting rosters)--nowadays it seems if you don't have more than 10, just stay home (with the possible exception of the new Nightlords).
EDIT: To expand on this a bit, I don't want Kill-Team to push itself out of a skirmish level game, and I certainly don't want turns to end up taking as long as they do in Bighammer because you have the same number of units to consider, they're just 1 model instead of however many they would be in Bighammer. I want Kill-Team to stay quick, snappy, fun and free from being mired down in unnecessary complexity.
The quinns dropped off a cliff
Yeah not doing well atm
Please somone tell me how to play Noviates, im so bad 😂
Maybe soon 😅
Another problem with Bheta Decima is that, even if you want the set, to practice with, you can’t get it.
Never mind, I must have missed the restocking alert. Or maybe didn’t get one?
Yeah it's been hard to get it sadly
Thanks for the update, glad to hear about the fine tuning, even if it's not perfect! It does make me wonder about next season. Are we going to continue with Balanced Dataslates, new bespoke teams, and a new environment, but the same core rules? Or is GW going to redesign the whole thing as it's been about 3 years now? I really hope it's the former...
First
Correct 🤔
alright how many nerfs will Kommandos take to the point they are not fun to play AND drop off the tierlist like a grandma slipping off the stairs? like holy hell Vet guard take a small amount of nerfs once and they dropped a bit. Kommandos got nerfed again and again but still on top? as a kommando player i fear the day we got nerfed to a grot level incompetence.
thank god i am thinking of getting a hierotek team (nightmare box and trenchcoat votann aside)
Just bring them down to 10 activations and change JAS to CP1+ instead of the current change. That's all they need
Free traverse on the whole team for free is a horrible mechanic, against Harlequins it makes barricade placement almost irrelevant and therefore takes away an interesting part of the game.
You can make it a free traverse once per TP per operative, they need something back
I think Fellgors are not so good on open maps like Bheta Decima. They are good but not so good as you say
They're only not good on BD. They're amazing on all other killzones
Exaction squad shoud be more addressed by GW, its really confusing how a KT that's been doing statistically bad for months has not seen a really game changing buff that at least make them playable. From the gunner to the 2/2 Weapons its just sad at this point.
Kinda, big buffs would break the team and currently they're very close to being incredibly good
Funnily Exaction counters Fellgor really well. I played a game against them on ITD with lots of phosphor lumens and he pretty much got trapped by my subductors while my shotguns blasted him to pieces.
How do the fellgor get frenzy in melee I am confused?
They frenzy when they are incapacitated
@@CanYouRollaCrit I misunderstood, IIRC how you phrased made it sound like when they charge they get to frenzy. Sorry 😔
No worries!
I’m just back from the student Nationals in Glasgow. KT was just a very small part of the event, 6 of us total. Across 4 games, our Hive Fleet player ultimately dominated, going 4-0 with great objective control and frustratingly good use of cover and the Conceal order. Personally to lost him 14-8. In retrospect I waited a turn too long with the high-risk flanking strikes that ended up very being very effective.
Great, challenging game and a friendly, if a bit laywer-y, opponent.
Oh nice, that's great to hear!
I guess you could say that Fellgors are pretty... GOATed.
I'm so sorry.
They're the true GOATS 😂😭
great work as always.
can you help me ? How many circles do you need to climb gantries? 2 ?
I saw some people use dashs to go down, how is that possible?
2 white sadly
You can dash if you are an inch or less on the edge as it would be 1 white to drop
@@CanYouRollaCrit always ? Or only if you have climbing gear?? I thought that to go down it was always 2 circles.
Climbing gear would let you drop for free
Can't wait for the mandrakes to try it out
They're a lot of fun haha
Tzaangor heavy is very much a trap into many teams. Most melee hordes and elites have more trouble into a 3-2-2 build.
A warpcoven player will do best when they know when to use either
What's a 3-2-2 build? 3 sorcs and then?
Yeah that makes sense
@CanYouRollaCrit 3 sorcs, 2 rubrics (Icon and gunner) And 2 tzaangors (champ and fighter)
Ahhhh, yeah that does feel very strong. What do you consider bad match-ups?
@CanYouRollaCrit haven't played every match yet but I think elves can give them trouble (HOA was my only loss this weekend) but I think those matches are surmountable. Fellgor is still an issue and Heirotek can give you trouble if their reanimation pops off.
Into shooting hordes I take 2-1-6
Melee hordes and elites usually get 3-2-2
When in doubt I run 3-1-4