Tony, it's a very nice "Budget Bracket Race Car" 💯 It wasn't built to be a "Index Class Race Car" 🙈 You and Mopar Al should be very proud of the way it ran at the No Name Nationals....I was proud and impressed! 🎉 🔥 💯 😎 💯 🔥 🎉
I was at no name nationals for a couple hours Friday afternoon. Got to see one of slaghammers runs and was really impressed. Guess I didn’t pay attention to how well it launched, but it ran well down the track.
Hey Tony still kind of new but I try to watch 3 to 4 episodes a day and I am learning so much at 61 I’m ready to try for myself I can’t begin to pay you for your knowledge and teaching
AFB style carbs are wider and may not clear the scoop opening at hood level. I have a Hot Rod / Race Car shop specializing in carburetors and tuning. I've done hundreds of 1850 carbs on tunnel rams for pretty much every imaginable combo. I have some trick that might help. Post the tuning parameters I also replace the boosters in damn near ever Holley in a perf app with dog leg boosters. I have the tool that flares them in. That alone sometimes wakes the engine up. I also use the vac motor tops with the balance tube. Going from the black springs to white is stiffest to weakest which is a bit radical. The idea is to get them to open smoothly. Most of the time I wind up with purple springs.
You should go to the dragstrip after the modifications with Al so he can make a run and you can adjust the jam screw. That would be a fun video ☝🏼 uncle Tony at the track 👀
To me (I don't know as much yet) for single setups I see a lot of Holley's. I see more dual Edelbrock / Carters on dual quads. Unless it's some crazy top end with two 1250cfm Holleys lol.
@@crazycoffee - Holley carbs flow more air than Carters on a rating-to-rating basis, but on a dual quad setup, whether low, medium or high rise, that's usually not an issue. A couple of 800CFM Carters will get you a good 1,200CFM. So, unless you really need more than that, the easy tuning on a Carter is nice to have, especially on a dual quad setup.
Don't know what is fast, but I have had two 2x4 edelbrock set ups. The greatest thing is that you can put them inline, and use the stock throttle cable, the linkage needed is so much more simple. Only run one run with my Cordoba that had a 440 with an Offenhauser Tunnel ram and 600's, it was a very slippery track and the 60 ft was over 2 seconds. It still run 11.8 in the 1/4. The other set up is on a Ford FE 390 with a low Edelbrock intake and two 500's out of the box. Small hesitation usually off the line, but it's in the very beginning and affects only the reaction time. 1.6 60 ft times and 7.0's in the 1/8 at 98 mph, but it's a light car, 2577 lbs. The engine is completely stock including valve springs, except for a Stock cheater cam, intake and headers.
@@vipottaja - I don't think it's about "how fast", it's more about how much air you need to move. I BELIEVE that carbs are rated at theoretical maximum flow through the base-plate, but don't hold me to that. There's a formula: Cubic Inches X RPM / 3,456. So, a 450" engine would need a 911 CFM at 7,000rpm. Therefore, if you have 440, 454, or 460 cubic inch engine with a dual-quad setup that revs to 7,000 RPM, then two 800 CFM Carters, which will flow around 1,200 CFM, will get the job done. On the other hand, if you drop an 8-71 blower on the same engine and run about 7lbs of boost, you're going to need about 1,350 to 1,400 CFM of carb to feed it.
If you look in the back of late-1960s or early 1970s car magazines there was an ad for an Accelerator Pump Discharge Nozzle extension kit. I don't remember who sold it. It may have been Motion Performance in Baldwin, Long Island, NY. I believe it was part of the gear drive injector kit (the "gear drive" part synced the front and rear throttle shafts so they opened in unison). It was basically a Y-shaped small tube that connected from the front pump squirter and reached over into the secondary barrel opening with the Y part of the tube squirting the fuel. It transformed a vacuum secondary Holley into a poor man's mechanical secondary carb, a de facto "center squirter." Does anyone else remember this? I bet you can fabricate this tube (some soldering or brazing required) and solve this problem.
Yes,I had a Mr.Gasket kit like that back in about 1978. Seemed to work ok. Had a gear setup to open the secondaries with the primaries,a larger acc.pump and cam,and a squirter with two extra brass nozzles that would reach the back barrels. Had to remove the vacuum pot also. I was 18 and working at a Union 76 service station. Put it on a beat up 1971 Charger 500 with a 426 wedge in it. Boy,those were good times! Sorry about the length of this. Anyway... Have a good one man😊
@@douglaspenland1550 I'm glad someone remembers! Lol. Yeah, those were great days, cheap gas, cheap cars and great music! A buddy of mine had a beat-up, gray primer 1970 Charger 500 4-speed car with 383 engine in it. That was back in the mid-1980s era. No worries, I like long posts as long as they're relevant. All the best.
@@brracing7861 Cool! I'm glad you remember and can confirm what i posted. I could swear Motion Performance sold that kit. At least the one I saw advertised.
Hey Tony, If your going to ''modify'' those carbs to open the secondaries ''manually'', swap out those small accelerator pumps for 60cc pumps, and put bigger squirter nozzles on both carbs, and you can make it work. There will be some tuning issues as far as figuring out which squirter nozzles to use, and that will take a few tries, but it's do-able, and you CAN make it work, the bigger pumps and nozzles will make up for not having secondary accelerator pumps, and should help immensely with avoiding the bog. With that big plenum the big acc pumps and squirters will trick the motor into thinking there are actually double pumpers up there.......good luck. Then again, being a mopar guy, you'll prolly go with afb's.....which is ok, i get it.....
I still think it's not gunna want more fuel n air with that converter. what you explained is exactly what you'd do to help a vac perform more like a dp but you'd only need or see a positive difference if the converter let it rev to a point where it wants more sooner
you could try 780 vacs and just use the 600 bowls. if it 60s better it wanted more but I doubt it will if the converter isn't letting it reach the rpm it will best launch at
if the secondarys are coming in late yet you have a soft spring then its telling you it doesn't want more fuel n air it wants less load . meaning more stall. the airspeed isn't enough to open the secondaries. forcing them open will only slow the air speed more. you can only overcome this with a higher stall speed. . sorry about the multiple comments , I rewatched and listened more.
i used that trick on big block chevy...single holley...trial and error...it worked great...i love your channel...watch every nite...like i said before you are smokey jr....
I believe I have a center squirter in my shop. Lol I live in boro and drive by your shop all the time. I would modify hood and do manual secondarys! Or go to edelbrocks. I run a single edelbrock 750 manual secondary on my trans am. Oops cant say trans these days 🤣. My "firebird" anyways I love a manual setup. I need to stop by one day and get one of those, I hate cars shirt! Love the channel and slaghammer!! 🤘🏻
I run a tunnel ram that’s a vintage style Weiand with 2 4150 mechanical secondaries mounted sideways. The linkage for it is enderle style and works very well. I was going to do a grump lump and ran into the same clearance issue so I just cut a hole big enough. I can’t run a grump lump but I’m working on trying to see if a thunderbolt teardrop will work. I saw Slaghammer run many times over the weekend, besides the carbs, I would possibly change the gears to something in the 4.86 to 5.13 range with that tall of a tire and to help spin that motor to its sweet spot.
Do NOT use a Teardrop! The teardrop is not a scoop...it's an extractor. Cars that used the teardrop (T-Bolts, etc) used a closed air box with air being routed from the high beam headlight holes. A teardrop will create a low pressure area over the top of your carbs and lead to tuning issues it would take NASA to sort. I do agree on the gears, but I stayed conservative with them because the heads and cam on that engine will run out of steam a couple of hundred feet before the traps on a quarter mile strip. No sense in making it any worse just for the 2 tenths we would pick up. It is a bracket car, afterall
Laughed out loud when you showed the screw in the secondary trick.Used that on my 68 Mustang fastback with a 69 Boss 302 in it with an 780 Holley. I knew your next words were about reaching the " bog" point. Car ran 12.76 @ 106 in the 1/4. Still own it, has a 671 with two 600s now though.
uncle tony your like a proud papa and the kid brought home a B grade now we can see you are gonna show them how to bring home straight As ..we can see the fire has been lit in your soul great job everyone
Man I got lucky, on market place local I found a edelbrock tunnel ram with 2 -660 center squirters, velocity stacks and vintage linkage for $800. I just needed the carbs as I already have a ram on my Vega wagon. Love the channel tony
There's an old hot rod book on Holley carbs with a solution. The drag guys would use a 50cc accelerator pump and drill two holes in the back of the air horn to run 2 small brass tubes to feed the secondaries off the front pump shooter, essentially creating a center pump with the bolt in the secondaries linkage. Idk where the picture is of this I've seen but its out there.
Back in the day someone (holley?) made a secondary mechanical kit and long reach secondary accelerator pump squriter paired to the stock acc pump nozzle. Two long tubes and you had to drill two small holes in the air-horn for the extension tubes to pass through. (hardware stores have the brass tubes) A fair machinist could duplicate those parts today. If theres a will... there's a way. Then go to a lone 50cc primary acc pump.
Ha tony an option on that style Holley is the 450 mech sec key is to run the 50 cc Ecc pump to get enough pump shot to get you over the transition into secondary’s , and of course jetting, unless you can come across some 660s.
Way back when, I did carbs for a 340 and 383. Both where dual vac 600s. My sec fix was to add a brass tube cut 45 and drill out and placed it in passage that supply the vac to the sec vac pods. it gives a stronger supply. Along with this. I opened up the the idle restriction in the metering plate by a lot! they feed the transfer slots and act kinda like sec accel pump. That's it. Keep On!
Hey Tony, you remember the three barrel Holley carb accelerator pump mod that had the squirter with two extra tubes to feed the third throttle bore? I think it used a Rio pump, 50cc, and was in the Honest Charlie and JC Whitney catalogs. They could fit your carbs if you could find them, or make your own . Just a thought to save money.
You could add a signal tube in the primary bore of the carb like the older 3310-1 and dash 2 have . The smaller Venturi carbs don’t have them because signal is good with just the hole there , but with a tube it it should make it even stronger and open the pod faster .
I was there and he gave great effort. IowA dave All that you have helped with their endeavors were needing your track experience for sure. Track time is crucial to drag racing.
Hey Tony, this is my opinion only but I have been a bracket racer for a very long time (Since 1987) and in that time I noticed that anyone running the Edelbrock carbs have had consistancy issues. I had a friend about to give it all up because of it. I switched him to the Holley and he has never looked back. Just a suggestion since you said this was a bracket car, bracket cars need to be very consistant. :) Love your channel even if I'm not a Mopar guy ;)
you really think the problem is in the carburetors? A low compression, 383 with a big cam isnt making any cylinder pressure. A tunnel ram is already overkill for the engine, you would go faster with a single 4 bbl.
Great stuff Tony ! I'm still learning the ins and outs of Holley 4 barrels and this helps . Yep Low budget working with what ya got or modifying what you already have 😎👍🔧🏁
50cc fuel accelerator pumps and #35 or bigger squirters. Check for vacuum leaks in secondary. Open the idle stop on the secondaries (there is a screw underneath). Quick Fuel carburetors have a adjusting screw to change the opening time of the secondary- they may retrofit? What rpm do you launch at? You may have used up most of the fuel in the accelerator pump if half throttle. Holly make different cams for the accelerator pump linkage. A wide band O2 sensor may tell you something. And a vacuum gauge on the dash-with a camera on it during a run… Hope this helps. 😎
That mid 7 is in there.. need to mount a Camera inside to watch the tach and see where the converter flashes.. I can tell it's too tight.. those 600's can get it there.. need some 50cc accelerator pumps on the primaries to give a longer duration pump shot to help cover the bog of the secondaries and a few other tricks. I ran 600's for two years on Casper but it took some time to get them dialed in.. I did a video comparing the 600 vs the 660's on the same day same track! The results were pretty shocking..
I agree that the converter is too tight, I think the brakes will struggle to hold the car back beyond 2,500 RPM. It sure gets the power to the pavement after it gets up to speed. It needs the impeller of the converter to be changed to a medium or high stall.
You could also switch to 50cc accelerator pumps and adjust the squirt nozzles. That might allow a bit more secondary opening and a harder hit. If the tires break loose when the secondaries open, how are the tires going to hold the hole shot?
I hope you show this stuff step by step. Is really cool car and stuff and really great grass roots stuff that all the younger people don’t do. I want to know if you are using plain gas or old racing stuff. I like the idea of no big money stuff and killing on that! Ooo one thing! I thought you had got new rims for this??
Do you recall a set of holley fangs? It was a set of long squirter that you drilled holes for them to pass through to also spray into the secondaries. I remember seeing them about 35yrs ago.
I want to see both, work The holleys until they can't perform any better then pull those and put the 750 edelbrocks on just so we can see the time differences. Good stuff here
I love the tunnel ram look but in all my years of drag racing I rarely saw a dual carb tunnel ram car run how it should at the track. I knew quite a few guys that tried dual carb set up but they had a really spicey motor! Typically a big block with high compression! Most of the guys I knew switched to a single 4v and most always ran stronger and more consistent! These guys weren’t using cheap stuff either! Top notch carbs specifically built for a tunnel ram and their application! I’m figuring it had a lot to do with velocity because of the large volume in the intake plenum! Also most of the dual quad tunnel rams that ran well were dragster style or very light weight cars….imo you need more gear or converter to get out of the whole better!
Uncle Tony knows his stuff. I don't agree with everything he says or the way he goes about doing some things (he's a Mopar guy, they're all a little weird lol) but here's the thing, I don't have to agree with everything he says or does to like and support him...I'm talking to you - TH-cam keyboard warriors. You can't let your plans slip because people are too quick to judge and start taking sides. The political scene here in the US + social media has created an "Us vs Them" mentality in our society where you have to agree with everything or nothing. Let's not forget that we're all on the same side here, boys and girls 👍🇺🇸 if you want to see our government panic and truly help the people, it'll be the day we all come together.
remember to old time three-barrel holley? JC whitney sold a kit with a 50cc accel-pump and long "squirters' to shoot a little gas into those slow opening back barrel/barrels--
It it's vacuum secondary with that big intake and 2 carbs on a 383 the front barrels may be open enough it doesn't have any vacuum left to open the rears.
Tony I read years ago in hotrod magazine they enlarged the vacuum port and in the carb and pod to bring in more vacuum to work the rear secondarys quickers maybe you heard about that
Love the car. Holley used to sell a special squirter with 2 extra n long discharge tubes to put fuel into the back barrels. Plus a 50cc accl pump. It could allow the motor avoid a bog. Plus there was a double gear drive linkage to force the barrels to match 100%. You probably already knew this. Deeper gears too. Hes barely hitting 3rd gear at the 1/8 . Just into. Not complaining
A guy I used to work with that had a rear engine dragster told me you can put a bolt on that cam on the opposite side of vacuum can to make it mechanical. I’ve never tried it though.
Uncle Tony , I was lookin online for a 500 cfm edelbrock carb for my fathers old poncho motor, anyhow I saw they are making knock offs of the edelbrock style Carb . I am a little Leary but for price point being a little over $200, I am tempted to give one of these a try maybe a low buck solution for slaghammer.
Considering that you lose a little converter rpm launch with the brake on. So what some say? What would be the perfect rpm lauch ? 383 have enough torque to push it out. Nice content again!
Getting the secondaries to open manually will help but it will always be sluggish. I understand the appeal of dual quad tunnel rams but realistically with your cubic inches, even if you were capable of spinning it 7,000rpm you'd still only need like 750, 800 cfm of air. Could possibly need less depending on your V.E.
Is there room to put a banjo fitting under the accelerator pump nozzle and use copper brake line to extend the accelerator pump line to the rear barrels maybe? Then you can solder the line end shut and drill small orfices there to squirt extra fuel?
So that's why the carbs were mounted sideways then. More than one person running a tunnel-ram said that mixture distribution was better at high RPM, didn't make any sense to me considering how the intake charge moves in a tunnel ram, but never I said anything. Like was said, the screw & nut in the secondary closing linkage was probably the MOST used 'home remedy' for late opening vacuum secondaries!
You can make 4150s fit end to end, but then you lose access to the float bowls that are butted against eachother. The carbs have to be removed for jet changes.
To alleviate the bog your going to have, I would install a 50 cc accelerator pump and the largest accelerator pump nozzle you can find. Throw extra gas at it to make up for the vacuum leak you will have until fuel starts flowing in the secondaries.
Nothing happens instananeously. So, once the throttle is opened, it takes some period of time for the engine acting as an air pump to pump down the mixture in the plennum & runners and thereby decrease the pressure (or increase the vacuum) in the manifold. A v. very rough calculation suggests this could take 0.1 to 0.2 seconds. Uncle Tony, do you think this is a significant factor in real world? It would also suggest that the lag to create sufficient vacuum to open secondaries would be bigger the smaller the engine displacement.
Forgive me please if I overlooked the answer. I saw where Andy wasn’t going to have Casper ready for the No Name Nationals, he said he was still going in a different vehicle. Was that why Tony didn’t bring Bottle Rocket ? I just was looking forward to seeing Bottle Rocket run a number.
I cant tell you how many holley carbs i came across in the 80s that had a screw in the secondaries digging around junkyards. But i also passed some on in my time that i did myself. Like you said though it was poor man performance back in the day.
My old 440 4 speed never ran so good as it did with a single carb. I had to have a tunnel ram though and it was just never worth the headaches for me. For now on, if I want something sticking out of the hood it's going to be a blower
Back in the 90's at my track here there was a 440 GTX tunnel ram etc..The guy could only run mid 14's....Next year,single 4bbl and mid 12's and spinning past the 60 ft mark,he had street tires.. The tunnel ram never spun it hooked and went 14's lol,he never did anything to the 440 just intake/carb swap over the winter!
If that Grump lump is fiberglass, I'd cut it in two, widen it and glass it back together, it would still have the look and give you the room you need, if its ABS plastic, I'd fabricate one like it out of sheet metal only wider, like the one on the 2 lane blacktop 55.
Mechanical vacuum secondaries.... Interesting!!! I'm surprised the edelbrocks will fit in that space since the Holley's already sit lengthwise. Looking fwd to more of this - I've always been a big block guy so I'm taking notes for future projects!!!
And I've found putting the screw in the link only causes bogging since you have no sec pump shot. I get cars in the shop every week that fall over themselves and that's the only problem.
@@livewire2759 Also the way I used to build them. I would take the transfer tube from an economizer carb and I would put a metering block on the back. Then to compensate for not being able to run a rear pump I would put a power valve in the rear. We used to do these things to get around the rules on dirt. We had classes that prohibited double pumpers. We always had stacks of those old six hundreds of all configurations laying around.
Tony, I have a pair of Holley Brawler 4160, 650 cfm double pumpers, yes 4160 with side hung floats and dual pumps!, I think they will fit inline on your manifold. I just bought them new, played with them for a few weeks, didn't work as I wished. You can see what they are on Holley's site. I can't donate them, but I could work out some really good deal. You could even try them first to see if they fit/work on your setup. If interested reply here and Ill call your shop. Bobby O'
I don't see why it should have to have a bog. If you open them both at the same basic rate, you just go over kill on the front accelerator pump nozzle and run the 50 cc size pump. I ran a spread bore Holley years ago and loved it. They might be cheap I don't know, but it was a double pump mechanical secondary and was pretty compact. It was made to be just about direct replacement for a q-jet. I think they would fit inline on that setup, but I don't know for sure. It might be an option of interest, that you didn't mention. I know it didn't have rear metering blocks, and the floats were not center hung. I'd look up the part number, but I'm not that nice and not sure if you would have to then run adapters on that tunnel ram. I also think you can get the carbs you now have to work close to as good as mechanical a mechanical double pumper with a lot of time. trial and error.
Just unhook the secondaries. I have a $3,600 lb small block with a 750 vacuum secondary. It runs 780 with the secondaries unhooked and 750 with them engaged. CFM is not your problem.. I run a 3800 8 in converter and I find that leaving at about 1500 RPM and allowing the converter to flash gives the best 60 ft times. My car averages 1.65 60 ft times.
Building within your means and having fun at the same time...rock on man
Tony, it's a very nice "Budget Bracket Race Car" 💯
It wasn't built to be a "Index Class Race Car" 🙈
You and Mopar Al should be very proud of the way it ran
at the No Name Nationals....I was proud and impressed!
🎉 🔥 💯 😎 💯 🔥 🎉
I was at no name nationals for a couple hours Friday afternoon. Got to see one of slaghammers runs and was really impressed. Guess I didn’t pay attention to how well it launched, but it ran well down the track.
That's my tractionless Dart in the left lane at the No Name Nationals.
Hey Tony still kind of new but I try to watch 3 to 4 episodes a day and I am learning so much at 61 I’m ready to try for myself
I can’t begin to pay you for your knowledge and teaching
Lol. I'm 21 and I rewatch Tony's stuff so much because I learn something new that I missed everytime!
Im 41 and same
AFB style carbs are wider and may not clear the scoop opening at hood level. I have a Hot Rod / Race Car shop specializing in carburetors and tuning. I've done hundreds of 1850 carbs on tunnel rams for pretty much every imaginable combo.
I have some trick that might help. Post the tuning parameters
I also replace the boosters in damn near ever Holley in a perf app with dog leg boosters. I have the tool that flares them in. That alone sometimes wakes the engine up.
I also use the vac motor tops with the balance tube.
Going from the black springs to white is stiffest to weakest which is a bit radical. The idea is to get them to open smoothly. Most of the time I wind up with purple springs.
You should go to the dragstrip after the modifications with Al so he can make a run and you can adjust the jam screw. That would be a fun video ☝🏼
uncle Tony at the track 👀
Tony don't like the Track. He took Lambchop out back and shot him the last time he was there...
I would really like to see how well the Carter/Edelbrock setup works, just because you never see them on a "fast" car, it's always a Holley.
To me (I don't know as much yet) for single setups I see a lot of Holley's. I see more dual Edelbrock / Carters on dual quads. Unless it's some crazy top end with two 1250cfm Holleys lol.
@@crazycoffee -
Holley carbs flow more air than Carters on a rating-to-rating basis, but on a dual quad setup, whether low, medium or high rise, that's usually not an issue. A couple of 800CFM Carters will get you a good 1,200CFM. So, unless you really need more than that, the easy tuning on a Carter is nice to have, especially on a dual quad setup.
Don't know what is fast, but I have had two 2x4 edelbrock set ups. The greatest thing is that you can put them inline, and use the stock throttle cable, the linkage needed is so much more simple. Only run one run with my Cordoba that had a 440 with an Offenhauser Tunnel ram and 600's, it was a very slippery track and the 60 ft was over 2 seconds. It still run 11.8 in the 1/4. The other set up is on a Ford FE 390 with a low Edelbrock intake and two 500's out of the box. Small hesitation usually off the line, but it's in the very beginning and affects only the reaction time. 1.6 60 ft times and 7.0's in the 1/8 at 98 mph, but it's a light car, 2577 lbs. The engine is completely stock including valve springs, except for a Stock cheater cam, intake and headers.
@@vipottaja -
I don't think it's about "how fast", it's more about how much air you need to move.
I BELIEVE that carbs are rated at theoretical maximum flow through the base-plate, but don't hold me to that.
There's a formula: Cubic Inches X RPM / 3,456.
So, a 450" engine would need a 911 CFM at 7,000rpm. Therefore, if you have 440, 454, or 460 cubic inch engine with a dual-quad setup that revs to 7,000 RPM, then two 800 CFM Carters, which will flow around 1,200 CFM, will get the job done.
On the other hand, if you drop an 8-71 blower on the same engine and run about 7lbs of boost, you're going to need about 1,350 to 1,400 CFM of carb to feed it.
If you look in the back of late-1960s or early 1970s car magazines there was an ad for an Accelerator Pump Discharge Nozzle extension kit. I don't remember who sold it. It may have been Motion Performance in Baldwin, Long Island, NY. I believe it was part of the gear drive injector kit (the "gear drive" part synced the front and rear throttle shafts so they opened in unison). It was basically a Y-shaped small tube that connected from the front pump squirter and reached over into the secondary barrel opening with the Y part of the tube squirting the fuel. It transformed a vacuum secondary Holley into a poor man's mechanical secondary carb, a de facto "center squirter." Does anyone else remember this? I bet you can fabricate this tube (some soldering or brazing required) and solve this problem.
Yes,I had a Mr.Gasket kit like that back in about 1978. Seemed to work ok. Had a gear setup to open the secondaries with the primaries,a larger acc.pump and cam,and a squirter with two extra brass nozzles that would reach the back barrels. Had to remove the vacuum pot also. I was 18 and working at a Union 76 service station. Put it on a beat up 1971 Charger 500 with a 426 wedge in it. Boy,those were good times! Sorry about the length of this. Anyway... Have a good one man😊
@@douglaspenland1550 I'm glad someone remembers! Lol. Yeah, those were great days, cheap gas, cheap cars and great music! A buddy of mine had a beat-up, gray primer 1970 Charger 500 4-speed car with 383 engine in it. That was back in the mid-1980s era. No worries, I like long posts as long as they're relevant. All the best.
@@brracing7861 Cool! I'm glad you remember and can confirm what i posted. I could swear Motion Performance sold that kit. At least the one I saw advertised.
It was great to see Slaghammer run this past weekend. We sure missed ya, Tony!
Hey Tony, If your going to ''modify'' those carbs to open the secondaries ''manually'', swap out those small accelerator pumps for 60cc pumps, and put bigger squirter nozzles on both carbs, and you can make it work. There will be some tuning issues as far as figuring out which squirter nozzles to use, and that will take a few tries, but it's do-able, and you CAN make it work, the bigger pumps and nozzles will make up for not having secondary accelerator pumps, and should help immensely with avoiding the bog. With that big plenum the big acc pumps and squirters will trick the motor into thinking there are actually double pumpers up there.......good luck. Then again, being a mopar guy, you'll prolly go with afb's.....which is ok, i get it.....
I still think it's not gunna want more fuel n air with that converter. what you explained is exactly what you'd do to help a vac perform more like a dp but you'd only need or see a positive difference if the converter let it rev to a point where it wants more sooner
you could try 780 vacs and just use the 600 bowls. if it 60s better it wanted more but I doubt it will if the converter isn't letting it reach the rpm it will best launch at
if the secondarys are coming in late yet you have a soft spring then its telling you it doesn't want more fuel n air it wants less load . meaning more stall. the airspeed isn't enough to open the secondaries. forcing them open will only slow the air speed more. you can only overcome this with a higher stall speed. . sorry about the multiple comments , I rewatched and listened more.
i used that trick on big block chevy...single holley...trial and error...it worked great...i love your channel...watch every nite...like i said before you are smokey jr....
I believe I have a center squirter in my shop. Lol I live in boro and drive by your shop all the time. I would modify hood and do manual secondarys! Or go to edelbrocks. I run a single edelbrock 750 manual secondary on my trans am. Oops cant say trans these days 🤣. My "firebird" anyways I love a manual setup. I need to stop by one day and get one of those, I hate cars shirt! Love the channel and slaghammer!! 🤘🏻
A pair of Edelbrock 750s is absolutely the way to go. Good stuff U.T.
I run a tunnel ram that’s a vintage style Weiand with 2 4150 mechanical secondaries mounted sideways. The linkage for it is enderle style and works very well. I was going to do a grump lump and ran into the same clearance issue so I just cut a hole big enough. I can’t run a grump lump but I’m working on trying to see if a thunderbolt teardrop will work. I saw Slaghammer run many times over the weekend, besides the carbs, I would possibly change the gears to something in the 4.86 to 5.13 range with that tall of a tire and to help spin that motor to its sweet spot.
Do NOT use a Teardrop! The teardrop is not a scoop...it's an extractor. Cars that used the teardrop (T-Bolts, etc) used a closed air box with air being routed from the high beam headlight holes.
A teardrop will create a low pressure area over the top of your carbs and lead to tuning issues it would take NASA to sort.
I do agree on the gears, but I stayed conservative with them because the heads and cam on that engine will run out of steam a couple of hundred feet before the traps on a quarter mile strip. No sense in making it any worse just for the 2 tenths we would pick up. It is a bracket car, afterall
Laughed out loud when you showed the screw in the secondary trick.Used that on my 68 Mustang fastback with a 69 Boss 302 in it with an 780 Holley. I knew your next words were about reaching the " bog" point. Car ran 12.76 @ 106 in the 1/4. Still own it, has a 671 with two 600s now though.
uncle tony your like a proud papa and the kid brought home a B grade now we can see you are gonna show them how to bring home straight As ..we can see the fire has been lit in your soul great job everyone
Man I got lucky, on market place local I found a edelbrock tunnel ram with 2 -660 center squirters, velocity stacks and vintage linkage for $800. I just needed the carbs as I already have a ram on my Vega wagon. Love the channel tony
There's an old hot rod book on Holley carbs with a solution. The drag guys would use a 50cc accelerator pump and drill two holes in the back of the air horn to run 2 small brass tubes to feed the secondaries off the front pump shooter, essentially creating a center pump with the bolt in the secondaries linkage.
Idk where the picture is of this I've seen but its out there.
Tuning is the name of the game 👍 I used the screw in the linkage on my tunnel ram 35 years ago 😂 great tips
Back in the day someone (holley?) made a secondary mechanical kit and long reach secondary accelerator pump squriter paired to the stock acc pump nozzle. Two long tubes and you had to drill two small holes in the air-horn for the extension tubes to pass through. (hardware stores have the brass tubes) A fair machinist could duplicate those parts today. If theres a will... there's a way. Then go to a lone 50cc primary acc pump.
Looking forward to the detailed tuning goodies. Thanks UTG
Good Analysis / Great Diagnosis & Remedial Plan
Ha tony an option on that style Holley is the 450 mech sec key is to run the 50 cc Ecc pump to get enough pump shot to get you over the transition into secondary’s , and of course jetting, unless you can come across some 660s.
Way back when, I did carbs for a 340 and 383. Both where dual vac 600s. My sec fix was to add a brass tube cut 45 and drill out and placed it in passage that supply the vac to the sec vac pods. it gives a stronger supply. Along with this. I opened up the the idle restriction in the metering plate by a lot! they feed the transfer slots and act kinda like sec accel pump. That's it. Keep On!
Will be fun to see how this works Tony!
She is an on going project Uncle Tony!!! LOL
Hey Tony, you remember the three barrel Holley carb accelerator pump mod that had the squirter with two extra tubes to feed the third throttle bore? I think it used a Rio pump, 50cc, and was in the Honest Charlie and JC Whitney catalogs. They could fit your carbs if you could find them, or make your own . Just a thought to save money.
You could add a signal tube in the primary bore of the carb like the older 3310-1 and dash 2 have . The smaller Venturi carbs don’t have them because signal is good with just the hole there , but with a tube it it should make it even stronger and open the pod faster .
I was there and he gave great effort. IowA dave
All that you have helped with their endeavors were needing your track experience for sure. Track time is crucial to drag racing.
Hey Tony, this is my opinion only but I have been a bracket racer for a very long time (Since 1987) and in that time I noticed that anyone running the Edelbrock carbs have had consistancy issues. I had a friend about to give it all up because of it. I switched him to the Holley and he has never looked back. Just a suggestion since you said this was a bracket car, bracket cars need to be very consistant. :) Love your channel even if I'm not a Mopar guy ;)
you really think the problem is in the carburetors? A low compression, 383 with a big cam isnt making any cylinder pressure. A tunnel ram is already overkill for the engine, you would go faster with a single 4 bbl.
Old skool solution right there. It will be cool to watch.
Great stuff Tony ! I'm still learning the ins and outs of Holley 4 barrels and this helps . Yep Low budget working with what ya got or modifying what you already have 😎👍🔧🏁
Don’t know if you have seen Randys (?) videos but probably one of the best out there …
th-cam.com/video/oTTWVRkXBcs/w-d-xo.html
@@mickeyo442 yes we already know this . I only dish out the money for something new and pricey if it needs to be done especially after saving up !
@@mickeyo442 none taken
50cc fuel accelerator pumps and #35 or bigger squirters. Check for vacuum leaks in secondary. Open the idle stop on the secondaries (there is a screw underneath). Quick Fuel carburetors have a adjusting screw to change the opening time of the secondary- they may retrofit?
What rpm do you launch at? You may have used up most of the fuel in the accelerator pump if half throttle. Holly make different cams for the accelerator pump linkage.
A wide band O2 sensor may tell you something. And a vacuum gauge on the dash-with a camera on it during a run…
Hope this helps.
😎
Would it help to not power brake so hard at the line? Sometimes hitting it just above idle helps achieve the higher rpm flash or stall.
That mid 7 is in there.. need to mount a Camera inside to watch the tach and see where the converter flashes.. I can tell it's too tight.. those 600's can get it there.. need some 50cc accelerator pumps on the primaries to give a longer duration pump shot to help cover the bog of the secondaries and a few other tricks. I ran 600's for two years on Casper but it took some time to get them dialed in.. I did a video comparing the 600 vs the 660's on the same day same track! The results were pretty shocking..
I agree that the converter is too tight, I think the brakes will struggle to hold the car back beyond 2,500 RPM. It sure gets the power to the pavement after it gets up to speed. It needs the impeller of the converter to be changed to a medium or high stall.
You could also switch to 50cc accelerator pumps and adjust the squirt nozzles. That might allow a bit more secondary opening and a harder hit. If the tires break loose when the secondaries open, how are the tires going to hold the hole shot?
Noticed you did not make it to the no name nationals
Really enjoyed the video UTG, explained so I could understand it easily. Thanks man ✌️
Slaghammer has a mean stance...great lookin car
Pops Racer figuring it out and turning the wrenches, “I’m done driving, I’m a builder”👍
I hope you show this stuff step by step. Is really cool car and stuff and really great grass roots stuff that all the younger people don’t do. I want to know if you are using plain gas or old racing stuff. I like the idea of no big money stuff and killing on that! Ooo one thing! I thought you had got new rims for this??
Do you recall a set of holley fangs? It was a set of long squirter that you drilled holes for them to pass through to also spray into the secondaries. I remember seeing them about 35yrs ago.
I want to see both, work The holleys until they can't perform any better then pull those and put the 750 edelbrocks on just so we can see the time differences. Good stuff here
I love the tunnel ram look but in all my years of drag racing I rarely saw a dual carb tunnel ram car run how it should at the track.
I knew quite a few guys that tried dual carb set up but they had a really spicey motor! Typically a big block with high compression!
Most of the guys I knew switched to a single 4v and most always ran stronger and more consistent! These guys weren’t using cheap stuff either! Top notch carbs specifically built for a tunnel ram and their application! I’m figuring it had a lot to do with velocity because of the large volume in the intake plenum! Also most of the dual quad tunnel rams that ran well were dragster style or very light weight cars….imo you need more gear or converter to get out of the whole better!
Good stuff.
Happy Motoring.
I used to use the old nut boat trick myself back in the seventies
That linkage trick caused my throttle to hang up and I tore up my 73 road runner, 25 years ago. First car.
Uncle Tony knows his stuff. I don't agree with everything he says or the way he goes about doing some things (he's a Mopar guy, they're all a little weird lol) but here's the thing, I don't have to agree with everything he says or does to like and support him...I'm talking to you - TH-cam keyboard warriors. You can't let your plans slip because people are too quick to judge and start taking sides. The political scene here in the US + social media has created an "Us vs Them" mentality in our society where you have to agree with everything or nothing. Let's not forget that we're all on the same side here, boys and girls 👍🇺🇸 if you want to see our government panic and truly help the people, it'll be the day we all come together.
The 8 most frightening words in the English language.
"We're from the government. We're here to help."
Truer words may have been spoken, but at the moment I can't remember when.
remember to old time three-barrel holley? JC whitney sold a kit with a 50cc accel-pump and long "squirters' to shoot a little gas into those slow opening back barrel/barrels--
It it's vacuum secondary with that big intake and 2 carbs on a 383 the front barrels may be open enough it doesn't have any vacuum left to open the rears.
Tony I read years ago in hotrod magazine they enlarged the vacuum port and in the carb and pod to bring in more vacuum to work the rear secondarys quickers maybe you heard about that
A couple of months ago there was a pair of 660:s on a big block Weiand tunnel ram on Facebook for 500 bucks...
Love the car. Holley used to sell a special squirter with 2 extra n long discharge tubes to put fuel into the back barrels. Plus a 50cc accl pump. It could allow the motor avoid a bog. Plus there was a double gear drive linkage to force the barrels to match 100%. You probably already knew this. Deeper gears too. Hes barely hitting 3rd gear at the 1/8 . Just into. Not complaining
A guy I used to work with that had a rear engine dragster told me you can put a bolt on that cam on the opposite side of vacuum can to make it mechanical. I’ve never tried it though.
Uncle Tony , I was lookin online for a 500 cfm edelbrock carb for my fathers old poncho motor, anyhow I saw they are making knock offs of the edelbrock style Carb . I am a little Leary but for price point being a little over $200, I am tempted to give one of these a try maybe a low buck solution for slaghammer.
I really enjoy every video
Considering that you lose a little converter rpm launch with the brake on. So what some say?
What would be the perfect rpm lauch ?
383 have enough torque to push it out.
Nice content again!
Getting the secondaries to open manually will help but it will always be sluggish. I understand the appeal of dual quad tunnel rams but realistically with your cubic inches, even if you were capable of spinning it 7,000rpm you'd still only need like 750, 800 cfm of air. Could possibly need less depending on your V.E.
Built not bought👍👍👍
This is fun stuff. Great information.
Is there room to put a banjo fitting under the accelerator pump nozzle and use copper brake line to extend the accelerator pump line to the rear barrels maybe? Then you can solder the line end shut and drill small orfices there to squirt extra fuel?
Might go to black pump cams, go up on pump nozzle size.
So that's why the carbs were mounted sideways then. More than one person running a tunnel-ram said that mixture distribution was better at high RPM, didn't make any sense to me considering how the intake charge moves in a tunnel ram, but never I said anything.
Like was said, the screw & nut in the secondary closing linkage was probably the MOST used 'home remedy' for late opening vacuum secondaries!
You can make 4150s fit end to end, but then you lose access to the float bowls that are butted against eachother. The carbs have to be removed for jet changes.
What about running 2x Holley 500 cfm 2 barrels? 2300 series
To alleviate the bog your going to have, I would install a 50 cc accelerator pump and the largest accelerator pump nozzle you can find. Throw extra gas at it to make up for the vacuum leak you will have until fuel starts flowing in the secondaries.
Squiters and pump cams won't help it? Maybe a 50cc pump?
Nothing happens instananeously. So, once the throttle is opened, it takes some period of time for the engine acting as an air pump to pump down the mixture in the plennum & runners and thereby decrease the pressure (or increase the vacuum) in the manifold. A v. very rough calculation suggests this could take 0.1 to 0.2 seconds. Uncle Tony, do you think this is a significant factor in real world? It would also suggest that the lag to create sufficient vacuum to open secondaries would be bigger the smaller the engine displacement.
I want to see it with the AFB's - I have a 400 mopar I am building with the same tunnel ram and would welcome the tuning tips for them
Tony. Are you deliberately not divulging the trap speed?
Lol I'll ship you down a eldelbrock 1407!! Can have it. You are probably the right guy to figure out what someone has done to it.
Yeah good idea put edelbrocks on it my 396 with 2x4s vaccume secondary Holleys had the same problem
My dad used to wire the 4 barrel shut when I was teenager,
Forgive me please if I overlooked the answer. I saw where Andy wasn’t going to have Casper ready for the No Name Nationals, he said he was still going in a different vehicle. Was that why Tony didn’t bring Bottle Rocket ?
I just was looking forward to seeing Bottle Rocket run a number.
I’m not bagging on anyone don’t get me wrong
@@jamessharp9790 Tony has been saying for the last 4 months he wasn't going and never planned to.
@@BERPSU1 yes sir I Totally misunderstood.
@@jamessharp9790 so did a lot of people I think that's why he kept mentioning it every now and then.
@@BERPSU1 all good I think the car is running hard now and with some dialing in would hit it’s goal
I cant tell you how many holley carbs i came across in the 80s that had a screw in the secondaries digging around junkyards. But i also passed some on in my time that i did myself. Like you said though it was poor man performance back in the day.
Great job 👏
My old 440 4 speed never ran so good as it did with a single carb. I had to have a tunnel ram though and it was just never worth the headaches for me. For now on, if I want something sticking out of the hood it's going to be a blower
Back in the 90's at my track here there was a 440 GTX tunnel ram etc..The guy could only run mid 14's....Next year,single 4bbl and mid 12's and spinning past the 60 ft mark,he had street tires..
The tunnel ram never spun it hooked and went 14's lol,he never did anything to the 440 just intake/carb swap over the winter!
If that Grump lump is fiberglass, I'd cut it in two, widen it and glass it back together, it would still have the look and give you the room you need, if its ABS plastic, I'd fabricate one like it out of sheet metal only wider, like the one on the 2 lane blacktop 55.
Mechanical vacuum secondaries.... Interesting!!! I'm surprised the edelbrocks will fit in that space since the Holley's already sit lengthwise. Looking fwd to more of this - I've always been a big block guy so I'm taking notes for future projects!!!
Couldn't you cut the grump lump down the middle. Fiberglass it 2 inches wider to open your carb options?
Wouldn't the nut and bolt make it more manual secondary? hope it works can't see why it wouldn't, all the best to you and your loved ones
And I've found putting the screw in the link only causes bogging since you have no sec pump shot. I get cars in the shop every week that fall over themselves and that's the only problem.
Ditch the check ball in the secondaries
What about using a dump valve on the tranny? Dump the torque converter pressure to get the rpms up, then apply it when it leaves the line.
Edekbrock good for high performance?
I was lead to believe they are good carb for the street
I would also go with a big accelerator pump on at least the front carb. That will help get it off the line.
That's a good idea if the bog from the secondaries is really bad... it would allow for a little more adjustment out of that stop screw...
@@livewire2759 Also the way I used to build them. I would take the transfer tube from an economizer carb and I would put a metering block on the back. Then to compensate for not being able to run a rear pump I would put a power valve in the rear. We used to do these things to get around the rules on dirt. We had classes that prohibited double pumpers. We always had stacks of those old six hundreds of all configurations laying around.
Tony, I have a pair of Holley Brawler 4160, 650 cfm double pumpers, yes 4160 with side hung floats and dual pumps!, I think they will fit inline on your manifold. I just bought them new, played with them for a few weeks, didn't work as I wished. You can see what they are on Holley's site. I can't donate them, but I could work out some really good deal. You could even try them first to see if they fit/work on your setup. If interested reply here and Ill call your shop. Bobby O'
You would be the talk of the interwebs
ever paint the inside of motor with imron after polishing and fettling all surfaces?
Once you get the bog why not a larger accelerator pump nozzle even though it's in the front?
the linkage mod is reminiscent of the quadrajet linkage mod to make the seconderies open sooner. nice
Carb spacer adapters that make room for 4150s in-line? #ofy-5880
I don't see why it should have to have a bog. If you open them both at the same basic rate, you just go over kill on the front accelerator pump nozzle and run the 50 cc size pump. I ran a spread bore Holley years ago and loved it. They might be cheap I don't know, but it was a double pump mechanical secondary and was pretty compact. It was made to be just about direct replacement for a q-jet. I think they would fit inline on that setup, but I don't know for sure. It might be an option of interest, that you didn't mention. I know it didn't have rear metering blocks, and the floats were not center hung. I'd look up the part number, but I'm not that nice and not sure if you would have to then run adapters on that tunnel ram. I also think you can get the carbs you now have to work close to as good as mechanical a mechanical double pumper with a lot of time. trial and error.
Just unhook the secondaries. I have a $3,600 lb small block with a 750 vacuum secondary. It runs 780 with the secondaries unhooked and 750 with them engaged. CFM is not your problem.. I run a 3800 8 in converter and I find that leaving at about 1500 RPM and allowing the converter to flash gives the best 60 ft times. My car averages 1.65 60 ft times.
I think that I would split the grump lump and add a strip to widen it out o I could use the carbs I want to use. But that is me.
What happened to your call out race with Bottle Rocket and Casper? Did i miss something?
Haven't heard anything about match race between bottle rocket and casper
maybe stick a 50cc REO pump on the primary and that might give you the extra squirt you are looking for!
thank you