Sexualisation or Homophobia? | The Internet Overreacts
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ก.ค. 2024
- Today we're talking about BOOBIES! Now that I've got your attention, let's talk about the online drama between actor Amandla Stenberg and film critic Lena Wilson. Very interested to hear your thoughts on this one!
N.b. I'm very disappointed to learn that such a minor interaction between two people garnered enough hate to chase Lena Wilson off social media. I stand strongly by the notion that neither person should have been bullied or harassed as the result of this small controversy.
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Sources:
www.out.com/commentary/2022/8...
• Lesbian Reviewer Sexua...
Timecodes:
00:00 Intro
01:15 The Controversy
06:50 Amandla's Video
10:04 Sexualised for having boobs
14:05 Lena's Response
18:17 The Costumes
21:14 Context of Homophobia
24:30 Conclusions
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Fun fact: criticizing a movie for being "sexualized" for someone's chest just existing, that's 🌈✨body shaming✨🌈
I have not seen the film in question, but based on what Emma read and showed of the costumes here, I would be hesitant to call it body shaming per se. The critic did not call out the actor specifically. I felt the critique was more directed at the director who chose the shots, perhaps the way the camera framed the body in question. Now the actor in question knows what the film portrayed and perhaps (correctly) inferred the critic was speaking specifically about her character. And perhaps the actor assumed the comments were somehow blaming her for "allowing" her body to be put on display in the movie. I don't think that is what the critic meant to do originally.
I do think that the critic took it too far to publicly shame the actor for her reaction, but I also think the actor took the comments a little too personally. A whole team is needed to make a movie. No one person can shoulder all the "blame" for the movie's quality.
In the end it seems everything was taken to a level beyond what was warranted and it should not have become the spectacle that it has.
I want to preface this by saying that I 100% agree with your statement.
Having done that: How do we tell the difference between "sexualized" and "just existing"? I mean, sure, there are obvious examples of either one that can be used as references. But it seems like there's not exactly a set of criteria for each.
That being said, I just take the safe route and don't comment, and try not to internally categorize. But if someone were to try and point out sexualization, it seems like a tricky subject since it's all a bit nebulous. And that's *before* even getting into what makes "good" or "bad" sexualization.
I think we all need to comment less on others bodies.
But I'm biased as I prefer personalities over the body. It was very awkward when my cousins got excited over Baywatch intros and I was annoyed with that stupid intro
@@ThePurbleKing it can be hard but I dislike sexualizing. So Baywatch intro is sexualizing while the picture she shared doesn't look like it. I think reading the intention is important but can be difficult. Normally if I'm yawning and my cousins are fixed on the screen it's probably sexualized.
Yeah its like is the film sexualising her or are you
Why does it seem that movie and food critics have no problem dishing out vitriolic criticism of others but can't take the slightest hint of criticism from someone else?
I dunno. It's like comedians are okay of other comedians attack them verbally but if anyone else says "maybe that's not that funny" they turn into screaming toddlers. In group outgroup?
@@redsands1001 I suppose humility and empathy aren’t the top job requirements for either one.
They're bad critics. Good critics aren't scared of other people's opinions, they thrive on them. They also aren't weirdos about some woman's boobs.
Lena can't cry, "I was bullied by someone with a bigger platform" when the discussion was happening out of the public eye where platform size was irrelevant. Honestly, Lena's actions do not ring honest. I think she was clout chasing with an overwrought emotional accusation of homophobia. It was pretty ridiculous.
Exactly. Lena was the one who posted it publicly, not Amandla. Lena has no room to talk.
I should have read the comments, this is much more articulate than what I said! 👍
Corwin and others, I'm gunna push back a teensy bit by saying this : Lena felt like she was being shamed, bullied, gay-bashed or whatever. It was a feeling she had, which is legit, homophobia is rampant and it hurts. What she shoulda done is; calmed down, talk to a friend about it, privately respond to the message with a "so um, did you mean to hurt my feelings? cuz when you said 'get your eyes off my tits' I felt like you were shaming me for being gay.", let Amandla respond, and don't make it public
She should not have made this public, wrong, wrong, wrong. Unfortunately mistakes happen when we respond in anger/fear. Lets all of us (all of the humans) get into therapy and fix this.
@@wellingtonsmith4998
1) Unless someone has psychic powers they don't actually know what anyone felt. People certainly do sometimes feel that way. People certainly do lie sometimes as well. So assuming one side must be the truth is simply not honest or fair.
2) Being dehumanized and treated like nothing but their body while demonizing them for selling sex is also something people experience. If feeling attacked for a common thing is justification for being snarky, then feeling attacked for a common thing is justification for being snarky. There is a reason self defense is treated differently than assault.
3) When person A claims that something is all about sex and tits, and person B fires back with a "Maybe you are the one that can't pay attention to anything else besides that." It is absolutely not fair or valid to jump straight to homophobia.
This is victim blaming. Someone says "You're just selling sex" (which when used as a criticism is definitionally implying it's bad, cause that is what criticizing something like that means). Person responds "Well you sure seem interested in buying it" (implying that it's a bit hypocritical to be criticizing her for this) First person "You hate gay people!" One of these things is not like the others.
This is the same as using "Won't someone please think of the children!?" like actual homophobes and transphobes actively do. Using a real problem as a deflection does not make it LESS shitty to deflect.
Yes, she very well might have actually felt attacked. So do all the men who feel unsafe when they find out another man likes men. Been around too many people who immediately went to "As long as you don't touch me" out of nowhere when they find out I'm bi, to know better than trusting "feeling persecuted" as a justification. Lotta people feel a lotta things, doesn't mean it's real. Immediately jumping to persecution while being called out is not trustworthy behavior.
Edited because wording is hard and punctuation is the devil.
@@JohnDoe-mk5zb I was wrong, THIS is articulate 🤙
The actress actually did the critic a solid when she didn't publically tweet that joke cause that would actually put the critic with smaller platform on the spot. But she didn't and that's the big difference between the two of them.
Why would Amandla want to publish a conversation where she's acting childishly, offended, and like she can't take even the slightest criticism that isn't even really directed at her anyway? She's trying to play it off here like she was just joking and it was light-hearted, but that's not at all how the interaction came across.
It's a movie. People can choose wear whatever clothes they want to wear in movies or public as long as they're not naked.
I believe these conservative evil-angelicals have successfully used the "don't sexualise people" as a way to take us back to a time when people dressed like they do in The Handmaid's Tale
@@DarkMatterVisible Please tell me more about how Amandla is the childish one in this situation for being frustrated that people keep sexualizing their body.
@@DarkMatterVisible Really? I didn't perceive it that way at all. Perhaps a good example of how texts and brief comments are not always the best way to communicate. Amandla did compliment that review, and gives a sarcastic comment that the reviewer seems to have spent a lot of time noticing boobs in the movie. She says she meant it as a joke, and that the fact they're both LGBT meant Lena would "get the joke". If Lena was offended, she could have continued the conversation privately. She's devastated, apparently no longer a fan of Amandla's, and took the issue public so people would take her side, think Amandla is bad and maybe they shouldn't be fans either? What other purpose would there be in making it public? She couldn't just write back to Amandla, and they could have understood each other.
@@DarkMatterVisible
Amadala isn't the childish one you're looking for. She was clearly just joking, and in fact I would've tweeted it publicly right away and would be just joking still. It's a very funny joke, and luckily it won't be lost to time, like tears... in rain.
addendum: an another quite funny detail - the critic can't even take a light jo0kie, let alone criticism.
I'm legit proud of Amandla Stenberg for being able to not get more jaded by now. First she gets harassed *as a child* for playing Rue in The Hunger Games (ppl got mad that she was Black, despite the books *literally* describe her as such), now she's got this critic being creepy about her boobs and then trying to act like she's some threatening, homophobic angry Black woman. She probably understands that being more openly upset would just play into the stereotypes, and that makes me sad.
Wishing her the best in her career. And thanks for a great vid as usual Emma!
WTF? Bikini's are perfect for battling zombies! Imagine wearing a wedding dress.... those girls always get killed within the first five minutes....
I have heard exposed navels activate womb powers lol
Making a DM public in a way that identifies the sender without their permission is (almost) always wrong.
Agreed. Short of an absolute hate filled diatribe or threats, one should not do that and that was not the case here.
Yes, I was trying to think of circumstances where it might be right to share a private message without consent and all I could think of were instances where you should probably share with law enforcement, not the general public.
('probably' because many disenfranchised peoples might not be hopeful of getting a favourable response from their particular local law enforcement).
@@sheridanwilde If someone is trying to use a position of power to pressure you into something or actually sending vitriol your way etc I think it's fine to publish DMs.
Agreed. I think this is where the situation went wrong. I can understand her feeling like she was being attacked when a movie star responded to one of her critiques, even if there was no actual ill will behind it, but putting her on blast instead of just responding in private was a bad move. This was two people having a dispute that could have easily been resolved with a short conversation.
"It's a vest, and so...because, my boobs, _exist,_ "
This bit absolutely sent me. I mean it does suck that something like 'Having a chest that exists' causes people grief, but just the phrasing in that sentence killed me.
The problem is that boobies are very attractive to our monkey brains.
The two seconds of my brain saying vest??? And then ooo British they mean shirt not a vest for a overdressed professional
Frankly I have appreciated Emma's, ahem, appearance in many of her videos, but always felt in was inappropriate to comment on since that isn't the focus.
Even now it feels a bit ... off.
@@jcspoon573 Your discomfort comes from the fact that we are constantly bombarded with imagery that showcases breasts as sexual. Ideally we should be updating our culture so they are not considered in that light. As a rule, the best thing is to not comment at all.
Yes I left my smaller pair in my other jacket. Today I showed up with cleavage.
I think you're totally right in your assessment of this. The critic was being way too sensitive, and SHE was the one who sexualized Amandla. I think some of her huffiness is because she got called out for it.
Late one cold autumn night an old Cherrokee shaman told her granddaughter the tale of the eternal battle in every soul- "Inside every queer-child-feminist there are two wolves ...
Haha I got tales about Wendigo from my Grand Papa. Might have been trying to tell me to save some potatoes for him 😂
@@sherlockwho5714 Did he threaten to gobble you up if you didn't leave him any?
@@hoathanatos6179 nah just a little bit of a joke on my part. He was probably trying to teach me that every person can be a monster.
I'm really glad you made that point of "the sexualization is in the eye of the reviewer", if you see something like cleavage and immediately think of it as sexual, well okay that's fine if that's what you wanna do, but don't then put that on to, and then shame, the person who considered what they were wearing completely non-sexual. Don't put your own hang-ups onto someone else.
Amazing video as always!
So, basically, Lena wrapped herself in the cloak of victimhood and Karen tears. I mean, SHE'S the one that brought this before the public. I appreciate that Amandla kept it light. She absolutely understood how she would be perceived if she'd offered even a hint of attitude. And I appreciate that you even extended some grace toward Lena. I don't particularly feel sorry for her, but I did enjoy your commentary. I think she had a tremendous amount of privilege and agency throughout this entire situation.
Wow. A critic that can't handle criticism. Who would have thought. The fact that it wasn't really criticism but she took it that way just makes it funnier.
I understand why people who often feel attacked can overreact now and then, so let's hope Lena learns from this instead of feeling more attacked and insecure.
Amandla has a valid point. There is an issue with objectification but I think critics play into this too much and create objectification were none may exist by calling something objectification any time an inch of bare skin is shown.
Also, don't ever share a dm without someone's permission. Amandla dmed probably to avoid directing hate at the writer and didn't get the same courtesy.
Yeah personal messages should stay personal in general.
Which ironically is objectification on their part.
I'm disturbed by how much certain reviewers these days are combining personal politics and ideology with their film analysis, penalizing films sometimes accordingly.
I remember a few years back when Christopher Nolan released "Dunkirk", there were a few asinine reviews calling him out for the lack of diversity in his cast. One of those was a prominent periodical, I think Newsweek?
I believe strongly that diverstiy enriches art, but for God's sake if we're criticizing filmmakers for adhering to the historical record, we're not going in the right direction, culturally.
I agree, however also it's subjective in a sense so can cause misunderstanding as well as intentional mis-characterization. It seems that's a potential aspect but hasn't been mentioned unless I missed it. Idk if that entirely makes sense but I hope so:o
Never assume that a DM is private. Any time you DM someone, you are giving the authority to that person to make that statement public if they so choose. That's not just a logical and moral position, it is a legal one.
The idea that someone needs the permission of someone messaging them that they feel is being inappropriate is not only completely messed up and wrong, but it's that exact kind of complete lack of basic internet comprehension that allows people to be victimized and afraid to share the experience.
Imagine putting in the work to bring a character to life and make a good film, but the only takeaway people get is "boobs and cleavage".
I'd be quite annoyed as well.
A pain specialist/hypnotherapist shamed me for wearing a tank top with 1" of cleavage on a hot day. Sorry I'm a 36-FF, & didn't get to spend all day in an office with AC 🙄 He told me to put on a long sleeve top, & I was too shocked to respond.
Now whenever I try to meditate for pain control, I just think about him & get angry. There's scientific evidence for mindfulness decreasing chronic pain, so being unable to access that makes me even more angry.
Ummm wtf why can't he handle his urges. This seems to be more common to expect women to cover up but if you talk to Islamic women even a burka doesn't stop some people from saying crap.
Forget him, he's not worth it!
Easier said than done, I know. But he really, really isn't worth an iota of your time.
Have you tried physical violence?
I'm so sorry he ruined that for you! That makes me angry too. D:
Maybe your therapist can help you work through your feelings about the incident until it stops triggering anger and you can then practice meditation more effectively. I would just try to do it on my own, but I don't recommend following my example; I'm flat broke and uncertain if my current insurance will cover the cost of the mental health care I need.
Woman: *exists *
Guys: "Damn that's hot."
Maybe keep some of these private thoughts to yourself, lads? Come on, you're making us look bad in front of the other genders.
What if we subscribe to the view that MJ made, that being bad was something to be proud of? ^^
Especially when "bad" is just having a libido. :p
you're worried about us looking bad?
at this point it seems almost irrelevant how we look
Amandla was also the only actress with clevage and as a bi (trans) man that thinks tits are pretty awesome on other people i dont feel like one character having visible clevage is enough to call a movie a slock fest of sexulisation like lena was implying the movie was. it also isnt really a "haha gay" thing, its just a "haha prude" thing if anything. the only way for that comment to be homophobic is if the borderline sex shaming is praised by the person making it coming from anyone other than a queer woman.
then again lena having a exetremely TERFy past certainly has me biased. you didnt really bring it up but kat did and just, a transphobic (or previously transphobic) person complaining about femme bodies not being completely covered as to avoid Impure Thoughts seems to just be right up that lane of wanting to control what others do with their bodies. All it takes is realizing its just one character wearing a tank to notice that its not a big deal in this movie and the criticism is more likely to get the single actor with said clevage to be given second thoughts about in the casting room if wearing a completely normal outfit is something thats she cant do without turning the entire movie into something to get people who like tits subconsciously horny like lena seemed to be suggesting. yeah, she can have a point but when paired with a movie that doesnt actually have that issue it is something to be mocked imo. just as a sort of "cmon your being as bad as a stereotypical man" sort of mocking.
Yeah. I don't follow movies (looked it up after watching) and from the title I imagined it very well could be a sexualized movie, that screenshot was nowhere near what I was imagining. And okay maybe they were sexualizing in the way that scenes other than that one were shot as some suggested. But Lena specified cleavage. As you say Amandla is the only one I even think of as having cleavage, and a very normal even small amount at that. Unless they were framing shots staring down everyone's shirts and that screenshot is an anomaly, "90 minute advertisement for cleavage" seems wildly inaccurate.
Agree 100% with you. Lena was out of line making the DM public, but shouldn't be harassed for it. If she doubles down on the homophobia comment (like she seemed to do on TikTok), she will get it, and deserve it then.
I think perhaps Lena didn't like having her own sexualization of another woman pointed out, even in DMs, and rather than have to examine herself she chose to dodge it and instead blamed the victim. Taking it public makes it easier to shift the narrative for yourself, it makes it all louder and draws more people into it which allows you to distract yourself from your own behavior. It probably wasn't a conscious plan, mind, but it certainly comes off that way to me.
Yeah, Lena's whole reaction has "caught in 4k HD vibes📸" lol
lol victim, its hilarious watching these factions devouring each other
@@daemonsw77 "Each other"? Both parties are LGBTQ+, which two factions within that community do they represent, especially since they overlap significantly in their positions and proclivities? This is a personal matter; not a factional battle.
@@zemorph42 you act like this is the only case...trumptards, mass media, religious fanatics, progressive's etc. The point being made was simple. Live by the sword die by the sword. You start to judge peoples dont cry victim wen you are judged yourself. And its funny
@@zemorph42 the factions here would be Hollywood and Feminist Progressives with LGBTQ underlying factors if you need it spelled out for you tho.
To be fair, I do think there is something to be said about power imbalances when artists/famous people directly engage with critics, even if it's in private. It can be very intimidating since you don't know the kind of connections they have which could affect your career as someone in the media business. I don't get why you would publish that message though without interacting first to see what it's all about, this misunderstanding could have been cleared up fairly easily I'd say.
I feel that. If she wanted to have a conversation, it should've been in private, in order to avoid further arguments.
I see your point, but yeah, if you're intimidated by the power imbalance I don't see why you'd deliberately try to make it public and make it bigger than it was.
As others have said, if she was afraid of the backlash, then taking a private exchange and making it public, seems like a quick way to bring that imbalance into play, especially considering how the other person's social power was never brought up, or even touched upon by said person in any of the communications.
I also do find it silly that this was so blown up. Guess the critic didn't enjoy someone critiquing their work, eh?
The critic tried to be funny: "an advertisement for cleavage" vice critical (hypothetical ex): "Amandala seemed objectified not only by her costume, but by lingering camera shots focused more squarely on her chest vice her face."
She wanted attention on her article, she got it, then she reacted poorly.
I think we should also keep in mind that race plays a role here, even if someone is "more famous than you" in the US a white person is going to have a power imbalance in their favor when interacting with a black person. Theres a reason you can find lots of videos of angry white women threatening to call the police on a black person.
My inner queer child also struggles with my inner feminism sometimes.
The jump to homophobia was a lot. I don't think Amandla's message was particularly professional (funny though ngl) but everything after that just...didn't need to happen. It could have ended in the DMs! Why would you post a screenshot??
As a straight man my conscious mind appreciates all facets of the person in front of me while my monkey brain and hormones are screaming 'Boobs!'
Lena is indeed over reacting and trying to get Amandla harrassed online. Like what would be the point of sharing that message besides getting people to harrass her?
Also lenas nepotism came to light due to this
She might have felt attacked and then lashed out in response. If someone challenges ideas/beliefs/etc that we hold as important to/attached to our identity, we (unconsciously) interpret that as an existential threat. And that can trigger a fight or flight response, rather than a reasoned one. I'm not saying this justifies Lena's response, but it might explain it.
Honestly Amandla handled this situation amazingly, props to her.
Amandla's first message came off as borderline flirty to me. Maybe I'm just weird. It definitely didn't come of as homophobic or any sort of an attack, but that is partially the trouble with text. The tone of the message is ascribed by the reader. At the end of the day, what starts in DMs should probably stay in DMs.
Honestly, it kinda came off that way to me too.
Lena Wilson is 100% responsible for this whole situation! She shared it, then played the victim card when it backfired on her! This is her projecting, the entitlement here is astonishing!
I have a hard time giving Lena any grace on this. First, she wrote a scathing review (of which the cleavage line was no doubt supposed to be a joke) and then when someone makes a joke about her critique, she's "devastated." She's not a random person, she's a reviewer for the New York Times, who uses that position to dish it out pretty strongly. But then she can't take the slightest jab back. Also Amandla was funny. Lena's also the one who made this a "situation." She's the one who brought up Amandla's chest and then she's one who made the exchange public. Amandla made a joke about someone's work who just made a bunch of jokes about her work. And then that person goes crying to the internet about how they've been attacked. I try to be empathetic, but even if on some level I can attempt to understand where she's coming from, she's been wrong at every step of this. I just can't offer her some level of benefit on it.
Strangers On The Internet commenting on people's private lives, bodies, and private conversations will always be questionable to me, especially when it takes so little effort just to not do that.
Humans have always been good at overreacting to practically nothing. But the internet allows us to do it faster and with even less substance.
I think Lena Wilson's response with "that someone with such a large following thinks can do something like that" is directed at the act of writing a DM at all. Funny or not, how DARE an actor think that they can criticise my work? How dare that they think they can come in my DM just because they are famous?
Though I don't get the mental skip from "don't DM me" to "this was homophobic".
In the book tube community there was a controversy when Gabbie Hanna commented on Rachel Oates' review. Savy made a great video about that.
I feel like that falls completely flat. "How dare you react to my reaction to your work?" And as pointed out elsewhere, the size of the following is irrelevant if the followers don't know about it. This even more true *because* Lena is a critic, she can actually have a strong hand in sinking the career of any non-A-lister.
@@tedweird I meant that Lena may thinks that someone who has many followers feels more entitled to do something like that. In the sense that some people who have a following think they can demand a special treatment.
@@Sina-aka-potatosupreme Sure, but again I think that falls flat when it comes from someone so high up in their own world, so to speak
Idk maybe I’m in the minority, but when I read that DM for the first time (before watching Amandla’s explanation), I interpreted it as her being shady and sarcastic. Like “Oh I worked hard on that movie, how dare you criticize it”
I guess Lena thought the same, so she made it public, as in “dude, this actress is being rude to me because I posted a negative review of her movie, wth”
Not sure why Lena thought she was being homophobic though. 🤷🏻♀️ Maybe because they only DM’d her and not the other critics who posted negative reviews? Idk
@@noidea4254 if Amandla’s comment had been about anything else in the movie critique, I would agree, but Amandla was very pointed with her comment, about how the movie was summed up into a sexualization of something that wasn’t really sexualized in the movie. So Lena’s reaction comes across more as a, “it’s okay for me to do this, but you can’t.” moment. Idk. I do agree with Emma, that it probably wasn’t the best idea for Amandla to send the DM, but even without Lena jumping to homophobia, her response would have been an overreaction.
I thought the movie was fun, and funny, and somewhat biting about the way people turn little silly things into a giant mess, among other things. I noticed boobs sometimes, because some of the characters have boobs, but not distractingly so, in the way I as a straight woman might notice that's obviously exploitative.
Prime example of "let sleeping dogs lie"
Lena should've just let it go.
"...because my boobs exist..." lol
My fiancee is built similarly to Iggy Azalea, which now that I'm typing it sounds like a weird brag...But we frequent comic conventions in artist alley and without fail once every couple hours or more she will get someone commenting about her body. It doesn't matter if she's next to me, behind the table, or even sitting down. We are both pretty good at brushing things off or laughing about it afterward but I honestly don't understand how some people think those their comments are acceptable, in a public space no less. One time she decided to cosplay as 2b from Nier: Automata (you can look up the outfit if you don't know it) and literally had a guy stalking her around the event trying to take video of her. It was so bad that even other artists at the event tried to get him to leave.
Just because you find someone attractive doesn't mean you can't control yourself.
Because both people involved in this like women when me and my boyfriend spoke we could both imagine a reality where the original dm was taken more lighthearted and started a flirty conversation. Not saying that was the intention but it could of gone that way in a parallel world
Yeah I can see that being said to a friend to rib on them. It's really rolling the dice to say that to a stranger. It might get you a flirty time or a face slapping
In the 1960s film critic John Simon would often include cruel criticism about the face or body of an actress in his movie reviews. And he often wrote for supposedly sophisticated New York publications. It is sad to see this nonsense still sometimes happening.
I hate double standards of any kind. Men can be completely naked in movies like Chris Hemsworth was in "Thor Love and Thunder" and few if anyone says something negative about it. If a woman is wearing anything less than a burka people start throwing fits.
It is really weird were they will mention some actor and talk about how he had always his shirt off. Sort of how they use to talk about Channing Tatum back before he respected comic actor.
That’s because only wimmin’s bodies are evil and sinful duh!! 😂
Perfectly waxed man-ass is perfectly staid, chaste, respectable, and dare I say downright admirable. Because: reasons.
One thing that I haven't seen mentioned here before (in this comment section I mean, this is the first time I even encountered this drama) is that, in many places, sharing private conversations online, without explicit consent from both parties, & without blocking out the names of the other people in the conversation, is illegal. Like, think about this drama whatever the fuck you want, but Lena potentially committed a crime by leaking those DMs for absolutely no reason & without the other person's consent
As a cis, more-or-less het guy, when I view Lena's video, it looks like me.
When I had a TON less relationship experience, a snarky comment from a pretty girl; especially one I had a bit of a crush on ("I used to be a REALLY big fan..."), would crush me like an egg. Even a remark as relevant and innocuous as Amandla's DM would feel like a huge attack; even more so after having hours of feminist guilt for enjoying the view for so long.
In Lena's shoes I would feel a bit guilty for getting so much joy out of the Low Art cleavage thing when I "was supposed to be working." Doubly so for a venue like the NYT, which as an institution likes to be viewed as high status, not to say stuffy. I could easily see trying to throw out a passing comment about how I liked watching the cast, as an attempt to both disclaim my feelings and try to cover for my guilty pleasure in the movie.
Amandla's response to feeling "dude, ANOTHER movie review about my tits?" was, as you say, measured and lighthearted.
What went wrong here is that Lena has been shamed for thirty years about having a natural sexual interest in watching a pretty girl. I'm not saying that constant commentary or harassment of attractive people is a reasonable expectation, only that people should get a bit of leeway for HAVING those urges without being shamed for them.
Your Bikini Zombie game was overtly sexualizing, true... but who was hurt by that? Similarly, if instead of what we see, Lena had included a line like "The main cast are all very pretty, I want to date them all," she would probably have been shamed for it. ESPECIALLY as a gay woman in a stuffy venue.
Purity culture creates a LOT more problems than we often realize, and Lena's instinctive response to defend from purity culture attacks made her overreact -- twice.
It seems to me like Lena missed an opportunity to be friends with the person she was a fan of -- Amandla reached out with humor about something uncomfortable -- that's something friends do with each other on occasion.
I completely agree with your assessment. Now, I can understand that the original DM may have come off as aggressive without the context from the actress, but Lena made the decision to immediately share it with the world instead of writing back to have a private conversation like an adult.
A critic for one of the world's leading news sources claiming that she was defending herself from someone with more "social power" is just laughable. She analyzes and criticizes others' creative work for a living; maybe she needs to learn to take it better if someone responds in kind.
She’s fairly early career, I think she’s mainly a project manager and occasionally writes pieces there
Thank you for always staying positive. It helps this 40 y/o American truck driver to keep his chin up.
Whenever two public figures get into a spat in public, the cynic in me figures that it's a publicity stunt.
By the way, thanks for the mention of The Liar's Dictionary when you sat in on Paulogia's channel. If you have further book recommendations, please share in future videos.
Though in this case only one of them chose to make it public...
The one here who made it public has deleted all of their socials and has released no new reviews since the controversy. So I don't think this was for publicity.
I agree with your assessment of the whole situation. I just thought Amanda's DM was just a variation on the "my eyes are up here" theme.
Of course, as a cis-gender male, I've never had to deal with this kind of social problem. The closest experience I've ever had was when a gay friend brought me to a gay pick-up bar, a "meat market" kind of place. I was a younger man then and in fairly good shape. As we walked through the place I could see several men ogling me. It was a novel experience for me. And while, on the one hand it was kind of flattering and ego boosting for me, in that at least somebody liked was sexually attracted to me, that experience did open my eyes to what so many women go through in their lives. I could see how it could become quite tiresome after the first couple of times.
I truly think this was a complete misunderstanding. One party has their critiques met with homophobic hate and the other has her acting undermined by what the clothing department chose to put her in. Its like they were having 2 completely different conversations in their head. Its amazing how much your perspective can completely change the meaning of what someone has said.
For me i think it shows a bit of a victim complex from Lena, all of us in the LGBT community know when someone's being homophobic/transphobic/biphobic because as sad as it is, most of us will have experienced it at least once.
This is quite clearly not a homophobic insult and they blew a minor joke out of the water, it's almost like certain critics don't like to be criticised despite their literal job being to criticise work.
It also shows that she did not do any research, like even reading Amandla's wikipedia page, to realize she's gay...
The trans movement is homophobic
@@derekb4977 Care to explain how?
@@samanthareviews1963 because tumblr cult created a whole bunch of fake labels to brainwash everyone into believing that there is more sexuality's out there there is only heterosexual and homosexual bisexual is attraction to the two only sexs Male and female the Trans cult want to redefine heterosexuality and homosexuality it's all just one big homophobic misogynistic fetishes cult. And the T is very sinister at it they are literally putting convert therapists out of a job since the T are the ones doing it, there's no such thing as transphobia biphobia is impossible because I'm attracted to one sex male so debunking biphobia, and there is no Q++++++++++++ as that's just made labels.
@@derekb4977 Okay so first of all, other genders such as NB and other terms like it have existed for decades, it wasn't made by a "tumblr cult", please do research.
Second I don't know anyone who transitions for a fetish, it's down to changing from one gender to another, and you didn't explain how it was misogynistic.
Next up, putting conversion therapists out of a job is not a negative, they have literally causes people to kill themselves, please also research about the dangers of conversion therapy.
Transphobia and Biphobia is a thing, it's the same as homophobia, just targeted at the Trans and Bisexual groups.
Finally the Q for LGBT means either questioning or Queer, it has nothing to do with gender.
I've only one thing to say, specifically about your discussion of your experience on YT as a female. You go into great detail about all these things, which I love. But you don't say what the design is on your top! Alright, jokes aside. My opinion on this story is that this critic the one I have the most issues with. Not only did they say something that *I* think is quite rude. Not to say you can't be attracted to whomever you wish, but to imply that the movie is merely a "95 minute advertisement for cleavage" is an affront to the whole team involved. On top of that, they (in my opinion) appear to be capitalizing on the dm that they received from this actor to cause a stir. It's a private conversation! It wasn't "someone with more social power" dogpiling them, it was the critic making a mountain of...not even a mole hill, instead it's a pothole.
It's anger inducing to hear that people can't respect someone because of their appearance. I watch the game theory channels and the guys wife talked about it when she was communicating with professional people she got treated differently than he did.
@@sherlockwho5714 Is it Stephanie you're talking about?
@@safala yeah apparently she had to resort to using matpats email to get taken seriously
@@sherlockwho5714 I'll never understand some people. Do they not know her qualifications? Don't they bother searching who they're speaking to? She's in STEM for gods' sake. And, sure, someone being in STEM doesn't make them good in everything but there's also a reason she handles the business side of things regarding the channels.
I would interpret the statement that a movie is "a 95-minute ad for cleavage" as having almost nothing to do with the actress whose cleavage is featured, and almost everything to do with the costuming, camera work, and editing. No matter how much I enjoy seeing cleavage, I would still rather see a movie featuring women as characters than a movie featuring only their body parts as scenery. And no matter how well an actress does her job, the costuming, camera work, and editing can remove her character from the movie and just use her body as scenery.
Even so, the actress's response seemed to me as though it was well within the no-harm-no-foul range, and the critic had no reason to go public with a private message, nor to block the actress's account.
Yeah, if Amandla had made that comment (which wasn't exactly unjust anyway) on Twitter or Instagram or other public place, Lena Wilson might have a point in snapping back. As it stands, she's just made herself look an utter fool when she didn't have to.
I agree with your thoughts here. An errant point that I haven't seen get much light is - quite separate from any alleged sexualisation, homophobia, racisim, etc. - it's just a poorly written piece of criticism! *ha, ha. Boobs!* is just one, very short, step up from a fart joke.
As a cis, straight male I don't often see the inside of sex-oriented conflicts between two gay people. I found this very enlightening.
What makes me dubious about Lena's response is her claim that Amandla had the power position in this exchange.
That is not my experience of the impact commentators can have on the careers of performers. In general, only a rare performer manages the situation and has the ability to make a witty retort - without incurring a flood of *other* commentators jumping on in response.
The power has been with the commentators since the days when all performances were live. The actors have always been advised to stay quiet.
As someone who has written the odd review, if someone from the thing I reviewed DM'd me I'd be impressed... it would mean someone actually read what I wrote ;)
In seriousness though, you can't write a review pointing out cleavage and then get upset when someone makes a comment about you focusing on their breasts. I don't know either of the people involved but I too think Amandla's response was great... ending with "you're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine" (to paraphrase)... is kind of the crux of much of the internet.
This entire debacle is a great example of the usefulness of the rule "Assume best intentions." We especially need to assume best intentions from the people that are supposed to be our allies. Lena's behavior in this is perplexing, both the original review and the response to the message. These two need to have a face-to-face over coffee, but instead we're seeing battle lines being drawn with armies of Internet followers. When shit like this happens, it's the Patriarchy that wins.
I mean, just because you enjoy the boobs doesn't mean that you have to say it to the world.
On the "If the critic was a man she would've responded the same way" remark I do think it would've flipped the audience reaction from the actress is homophobic to the actress is strong woman and critic is pervert who deserved to be called out despite the actress probably having more or less the same stance on the matter.
I agree, but I think that first DM was worded in a way that could be easily misunderstood. Amandla intended it to be funny, ironic and to have two layers of meaning -- and that's a lot to put into a single short DM sent to a stranger. It's no wonder it was read as an attack. But Lena clearly overreacted. And now I see she's receiving huge backlash because of it - that's really sad. I wish there was more room for people to be a bit foolish on social media, but the algorithms demand hate mobs, so that's what we get.
I think also when Lena Wilson starts complaining about allegedly imbalanced "social power" it needs to be pointed out that she's not reviewing for a tiny zine, or some obscure blog, _she is employed at The New York Times_ which is one of the most *prominent* gigs a film reviewer can have, globally.
"Bodies, Bodies, Bodies", at the end of the day, is still just a smallscale indie film, and this actor Sternberg is one small part of the larger ensemble who most people will likely have never heard of. I hadn't.
It's just bizarre, Wilson's apparent total lack of self awareness.
Amandla Stenberg has been widely known for a few years, starting from her appearance in The Hunger Games, and a24 films are very high profile these days. I definitely don't agree with the critic's assertion I just had to correct your impression.
@@unrightist She's not a household name though. I just feel that Wilson seems to be equating Stenberg with a status I don't think she has. She's not a "star". I would argue that, within her field, Wilson has actually achieved much more than Stenberg has in her own.
I guess it all hinges on exatly what Wilson means by "social power". In my opinion, being a film reviewer for a globally renowned and respected newspaper, arguably the most prominent in the United States, is a lot more "powerful" than being an actress, one of countless, who appears as part of ensembles.
@@mcnultyssobercompanion6372 again, not arguing with the ultimate point but I think an average leading actor from a wide release film is better known in the average household than any writer for any publication.
14:42 i was generally completely apathetic about Lena, but then i saw that she went and _blocked_ Amandla for daring to send that DM. That's an unforgivable sin in my eyes, so guess that's gonna be the end of this "conflict" for me.
LE: Oh, right... Also making the DM public without any consideration to the sender is a dick move, but at least that one could've gotten pardoned if done for good enough reasons.
Even assuming the best, the critic completely overreacted and went to the interwebs to rally the troops, which is never a good look, nor the rational first step in sorting out a situation.
Assuming the worst? They were hoping to get some extra attention from this, and ta da.
"i didn't want this to happen" THIS IS HAPPENING DIRECTLY BECAUSE OF YOUR ACTIONS.
social media was a mistake
In response to the part where you replied to a negative comment directed at you: I also got hate not long ago in a friend’s comment section on Facebook because I used the words “pregnant people”. He was so adamant that I should have said “women”. I replied with “are women not people?”
For me, it's about how people read text without the context and visual clues of face to face conversation.
Lena looked angry and offended but i feel she was in that mood when she read the DM. So the voice and attitude in her 'head voice' may have reflected that.
A case of 'took it the wrong way' and reacted to the level of perceived aggression, rather thean the light hearted nudge it actually was.
It is just crude and rude to dwindle a person down to a single sexualized trait. To ignore everything else that makes that person an individual, just shows how much of an animal/idiot someone really is…
I remember seeing this tweet a few days ago when it went viral and was scratching my head as to what the op was claiming to be victimized by. Didn't know either of the people involved. Now with more context, gotta say I agree with Emma's take.
Its like telling Michelangelo his paintings are mediocre and people only like them because they depict nudity. I mean if that's someone's opinion as a critic of art, fine I guess, but then if Michelangelo were to fire back like "if you weren't so focused on the nudity, dont hyperfocus on Adams dong and take a step back, you'd see the meaning and beauty behind the whole scene of stuff I painted." That's totally valid as well. It's weird when critics get all defensive and act like they themselves cant also be criticized.
"What's your talent? Oh yeah critiquing my talent?" --Eminem.
it seems like Lena perceived the DM as a personal attack which might account for the overreaction and i think that has been the main source of conflict here. and i agree with you that Amandla's comment would be just as valid and even praised if the critic was a man or a straight woman even
also it probably does mean Lena has just gotten so used to receiving homophobic comments that her mind has started jumping to that conclusion preemptively
it doesn't change the fact that this issue is kind of on her since she shared the DM publicly and caused the whole thing and i think she probably needs to kind of reflect on that a bit but i feel for her as well considering she probably does get a lot of homophobic comments and thats gotta get just as tiring as receiving so many comments about your chest, as in Amandla's case
Amandla def had a great response
i've never heard of this movie and i also am not familiar with Amandla bc i live under a rock and haven't seen hardly any movies since even before c0vid but it was a good way to respond they seem cool idk; will prob be jumping to Kat Blaque's video next thanks for linking it!
My only (small) criticism of Amandla in this is that the initial DM seems like something you'd send to someone you knew, and they'd see as a joke, but when sent to what amounts to a complete stranger, it could be read as mean-spirited. But maybe that's just my social anxiety talking.
Yeah, I got the exact same vibe. It's how you'd talk to a friend. Amandla probably thought they'd take it as a fellow "we're both people with boobs who like boobs" sort of person, but it can be hard to read tone and especially sarcasm in text form.
Bro it's the internet they always overreact 💀
Seriously. The video could be titled "The Internet Acts Like the Internet" and it would have the same meaning.
You are amazing emma love all your videos you are always interesting love you so much you are a sweet person
@@AaronReece yea 💀
This feels a whole lot like that meme where the bicyclist shoves a metal bar between their wheel spokes and then blames someone else for their own actions that caused the damage.
P.S. I had no idea that either of them were queer, or that either message painted them as queer. The comment about homophobia from in the house took me completely off guard.
I have written three different lengthy comments now and scrapped all of them because they feel creepy to me - the basic gist of my point, without elaboration, is that I agree that there is too much discussion of women's sexual traits in film review. I had a witty comment about the 'dangling breasts' thing too but I figured that as a man it was just a bit... creepy to say in a public space. This video certainly has made me think more about the comments I make.
As usual, you nailed it once again. Love your work.
I always enjoy hearing your perspective. :)
Glad you are feeling better Emma! 😊
Always love your nuanced takes! 🖤
This video coincidentally came out at the perfect time. In addition to trying to get healthier overall (and ideally lose some COVID/grief weight), I have been seriously considering getting a breast reduction/lift. It's bad enough that my sweaty oversized boobs have been a literal pain in the scoliotic back for 17 of my 26 years of life, but the unwanted sexualization they attracted from my purity-culture-heavy upbringing-and the crippling dysphoria/dysmorphia they give me today-are too much.
Makes perfect sense, nice analysis as always ❤️
Your sensible approach to things is so refreshing. People are making stuff way too complicated.
She doesn't know what she is talking about she is a straight woman I'm sick of her speaking on issues she knows nothing about, it's LGB that's it.
Pretty spot on I think. And taken in the spirit that I think it's meant to be taken lollypop chainsaw is hilariously fun.
I believe you can enjoy something while not condoning it in real life. I enjoyed animorphs but I don't support child soldiers
The main takeaway I got from this is that I should watch Bodies Bodies Bodies.
The outfit doesn't even look *that* skimpy tbh, as someone with DD cups I can definitely relate to not being able to wear basic tanktops or anything even slightly lower cut without feeling exposed. I can definitely relate to Amandla plus the way she handled it was badass so in order to support this awesome lady and also because the movie looks pretty fun on its own, imma go watch Bodies Bodies Bodies.
"sometimes my inner queer child and my inner feminist fight" THAT HITS MY LESBIAN ASS ON A SPIRITUAL LEVEL
I love how she was still laughing.
I think this is the perfect example of why we need to give people the benefit of the doubt in general. Things that people say sometimes sound bad and more serious when there's very little context or tone, especially in text format. I totally agree with your evaluation.
Man you are such a respectful person. Such a breath of fresh air.
She simply shot herself in the foot, thinking that she could spin the reaction to get people on her side and attention
Legit topic to cover from a ton of angles. Taking private convos public unilaterally… a reminder of how wide spread inappropriate sexual comments are levied on content producers as well as… the allegiance to childhood games/movies/shows who’s content is often considered terribly inappropriate today…. Respect for ya for openly talking about these things. ✊🏻👍🏻
I am of the opinion that the sexualization of a woman's breasts is just a normalized fetish. Like most fetishes, I think they should be kept personal and shared only with consenting individuals.
Woman wears baggy shirt...
People: You shouldn't have to cover yourself up! Show your body! Love your body!
Woman wears tank top/sports bra/low-cut outfit...
People: OMG! No one wants to see that! Put on some clothes! Cover yourself!
Women just can't win. Also, I've noticed that movie or music critics tend to be among the most over-sensitive people. They make their careers by criticizing and critiquing other people's work, but if you dare to challenge anything they say, look out, because they're going to lose their shit, which is why I tend to completely ignore critics.
Glad you are feeling better Emma🤗
Agreed on all counts. Also, I declare to any doubters that your gaming channel is a delight!
Never heard of Amandla before but they're awesome!
Had to look up her filmography, had seen her as "Rue" in the "Hunger Games" films. Obviously a bit younger there.
Doesn't happen often with people on the Internet but I agree with everything you've said
Lena should not have shared a PRIVATE message, it seems like she wanted her followers to go in on the other woman. The other person shouldn’t have DMed the critic. Either way I agree, nothing they did was wrong (aside from the accusation) but could have avoided all this if they had realized that… social media is a monster and nothing is ever simple or sane there.
Every non-misogynist man knows the war between the reasonable human being you want to be and liking boobs a lot. If some horny person didn't listen to the points their criticism is dumb anyway.
Lesbians can join you in solidarity. We're not looking, but we're not able to do a single other thing at the same time.
The problem is, boobs are lovely to look at. We like the shape, the jiggle, the cleavage, the inner curve, the outer curve, the under curve. We like them big or small. The only time in my life I can recall not wanting to look at boobs was a week's holiday in Corfu on a topless beach. Turns out you can have too much of a good thing (but only temporarily).
I would explain these things as aspects of yourself. You can find someone attractive or admire their body. I have seen a couple guys running shirtless and I think hmm could I graft those muscles onto my body lol
Ok back on topic. The thing to remember is that a woman is more than her boobs. You can like the boobs but be respectful and keep it to yourself unless you are invited to comment by her.
I might sound like I'm rambling above
@@sherlockwho5714 Yep. That's why objectifying or dehumanizing are both better and worse terms for it. They are more vague but emphasize the important part. It's perfectly fine to notice "Monkey brain like" or to interact with someone just to get something from them, like the cashier at the store. The only reason I talk to them is because I am fat and want more food to shove in my face. Pretty sure they didn't wait around there just for me to show up and grace them with my presence either. The actual problem is when we forget that they are also human. That they don't exist just for us. Dehumanizing is the bad part. The cashier doesn't exist for me to get food. But it's absolutely okay to be transactional and say "You help me get food, treat me like human. I treat you like human, help you do job, get food too. Full bellies. Life Good."
Went on a bit of a rant there. Point being, SEXUALIZING isn't evil. DEHUMANIZING is. Cause we are all human. I think. Most of us. Maybe not my cousin with the shiny eyes, skin condition, and super long tongue. But they're alright too.
@@JohnDoe-mk5zb this dehumanization vs sexualization distinction is probably the best take I’ve seen on this subject. It could really add so much nuance to the discussion. As a woman who is attracted to women, and as an artist who mostly likes to draw women (sometimes light nsfw) I have thought a lot about this.
There’s a big difference between someone who can distinguish fiction from reality and for whom seeing sexy depictions of women does not translate into disrespectful behavior, vs someone who would be disrespectful either way and may also gravitate towards sexualized, objectifying depictions. Which has made me think a lot about: how much can we really blame the depiction itself? When it’s really the interpretation that can lead to problematic behaviors.
this idea of a passing glance is very well parodied in always sunny. The idea is that looking and appreciating to yourself is fine, but in the scene, frank never stops staring, she when confronted he says hes afraid shell be insulted if he looks away. He says its a compliment, and that she should feel good because theyre not that great. Such a funny scene, andsuch a good commentary on how people think about this in real life
You are normal.
I am normal.
When we talk in a corner, it's just normal.
What people forget in the house we all live in is that we live with an angry, volatile, superhuman step child called the Internet.
Let's chat in a corner and not involve the angry superpowered psycho in the living room.
I wish more people understood this.
You were totally on point, Emma. Great response
I really glad you mentioned the Karen thing. One of my absolute worst pet peeves is when people see a person or group of people use a term INCORRECTLY in an offensive way and then decide to ban the use of that term socially.
All that does in my opinion is make it more likely that the meaning of that term actually will change to become a slur/offensive in some way as that's now what is most associated with it. Call out the people using it incorrectly. Don't stop people who use it properly.
I basically agree with your video and on how this totally didn't need to be a whole thing if Lena didn't make the DM public. However, I can imagine a framing where Lena would have interpreted Amandla's comment as homophobic. Pointing out that a movie sexualizes its actors is not, in and of itself, a sexual comment or coming from a sexual mindset. You don't need to be attracted to a character in a movie to recognize that they're being portrayed sexually. So if Lena wasn't coming from a sexual mindset, and then Amandla's comment accuses her of being too distracted by her chest, I can see how that would come across as weird. It's kind of resonant with defining gay people as inherently sexual, so therefore a gay person must have been too attracted to Amandla's chest to pay attention to the movie.
I can see how it could come across that way, but I don't think Amandla should have known to do differently or anything. She also had taken commentary on (presumably) the studio and interpreted it as more commentary on herself as a person with a bigger chest. It seems like its just a case of two people sick and tired of being treated certain ways based on who they are setting each other off in an unfortunate way.
So it's okay for Lena to use her platform at the New York Times to take cheap shots at a film and the female actors in it, yet it's "DEVASTATING" and apparently unforgivable for one of her targets to clap back? Such DRAMA! 😕
That she responded with humor is probably the most wholesome, lighthearted kind online.