Do NOT use an aftermarket crank sensor on this model! Here is the @SouthMainAuto video Eric did that bailed me out on this one th-cam.com/video/iScpoqe_hgw/w-d-xo.htmlsi=aq8X29GDw3AmGTdd
@M_Phipps0520 on 80s, 90s and early 2000s you will have ZERO issue with aftermarket cam and crank sensors. This 2011 was the first one I've seen like this
Great video Paul and Caleb as always. This is another example that this community is helping one another. I have learned so much from your channel and Eric O. and Ivan and others. Thank you much for sharing your knowledge. God Bless.
Oilers sweep Cup Final, book it. Nice work again Mr Danner. You and the diag community are so valuable to all of us. Super Mario, Pine Hollow, South Main, Royalty, Mechanic Mindset and others. Not only the tech information, but the presentation and teaching methods. Lets hope the Electric Vehicle generation is blessed by similar sharing and learning. Stay gold.
@@ScannerDanner Sorry about that Paul, i must have had a brain malfunction. Somehow i missed it in the description EVEN though it's right there in the first line now that i looked again! I did see you had linked it farther down in the comment section which is why i made the comment about pinning it at the top.
This is the same issue I was having with A Honda CKP just recently at my friends shop. I used my scope and captured and seen the failing waveform and dropout. I saw your post on FB and said this sounds just like the Honda I just did. The shop I was helping was gonna throw a PCM in it, til I dug in and found this! Aftermarket CKP didn't have a strong magnet and under hard acel it would fade and drop out. The OEM CKP Solved the problem and was viably noticeable on the scope. Great video and lesson for the team!
@@RichardSandstrom1163 Would really appreciate if you could at your convenient time just have a quick look around the file. Hope there is and psdata format. I wonder what the waveform differences are like.
Finally James Danner on the show, cant tell you how excited I'm😍😍😍 Thanks for sharing SD😍😍😍 Special Thanks to cameraman Caleb😎 Stay Blessed Guy's🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
I've been burnt a lot lately with customers bringing in their own 'less expensive' Amazon parts for install. I think there is a big market today in counterfeit automotive parts, along with customers doing their own diagnostics and insisting you install the part based on their research. Great video Paul. A absolute real life scenario that we all have or will soon face in this industry! Keep these videos coming!!!
This year alone we have had a Jeep and a Lexus that would not run right with aftermarket crank sensors. Even after trying several. Random misfires, but no more crank sensor codes. OEM part, fixed. Aftermarket Blower resistors in a Trax, after trying several, OEM fixed...even mechanical fuel pumps on a Jeep that make too much fuel pressure. Mechanics beware. Nice work guys!
My philosophy has always been, any component that talks to the PCM should be OEM, since aftermarket is so unreliable and usually junk. Great video Paul you went the distance brother!
Too crazy brought this up Several years back Had a customer bring in a 7.3 Ford diesel The engine would only stall when you turn on intermittent wipers Normal wipers engine would not stall Truck run fine After losing sleep and pulling my hair out It turned out to be Aftermarket sync sensor Put a factory one in Repaired the problem Yes, the truck had an aftermarket sensor in it Once again, didn’t buy cheap parts Great video keep them coming
Great Video Paul - Yep, thats what I tell my friends DO NOT, DO NOT Replace OEM electronic engine components for fuel, ignition & timing with aftermarket replacements !! Keep up the great Work to you and Son Caleb !!!!
So again, I find myself saying to you, thank you for always keeping it real. Not everything in our industry is black-and-white. Another job well done. Thank you for what you do.
Wow, Great stuff!!! I am getting my son-in-laws Patriot in the morning for the same problem. This helps me big time on determining when the trouble shooting exceeds both my skill and equipment capabilities. Thank you!!!
Working for a dealer has it's negatives. I use to work for dealerships and I always said never again. What I've noticed around here, though, is that dealers have a tendency to purchase aftermarket parts because they don't stock squat for parts.
I can see where the sensor pulls the voltage down and holds it down for the duration of the index. But on the aftermarket sensor, it pulls it down and immediately lets go of it and takes the next tooth to regain its cadence. Great video. I use the information in videos to know when to insist on factory parts. However, I must add that a parts store MAF saved my Merc back in 2008 and has been doing fine with periodic cleaning ever since. I probably just jinxed it.
Exactly what was happening! It was letting it go too soon. And honestly, for the 80s, 90s and early 2000s (25 year range) I NEVER, not once had an issue with an aftermarket crank or cam sensor on ANY Chrysler product.
@ScannerDanner ive seen plenty bad aftermarket crank sensors for the magnum 3.9, 5.2, 5.9s. Dont know about the other chrysler engines but that's the first thing I thought at the beginning of the video
Omg, I have the same fn problem with my daughters 2012 jeep compas with the same code. In the last year I ve put two crank sensors frim auto zone and it just did it again three days ago, installed another crank senso and it died the next day.now i dont have the diag scanner that you have just a small reader type one but your trouble shooting technics is spot on. Gonna get a factory sensor and see what happens... Thanks for the video....Craig from Balt Md.
I had to laugh when you said, we're gonna punch the car right here. Right after you pass the 25 mile an hour speed limit sign. I've got my fair share of speeding tickets In 25 mile an hour zones. If you can try to wait to get into35 or 45 mile an hour zones or even on the freeway. Just so you don't get a ticket, it raises your car insurance and everything. Another great case study from your channel. Which I've come to expect.😁😁😁
As far pricing the job, I'd charge my standard diagnosis plus parts and labor. Any additional diagnosis time, I'd be talking to my vendor and/or the manufacturers rep if possible about compensation. His part created the problem. I've had them help in a situation like this under "Goodwill"
Testing a Hyundai right now. No power battery was 4.5 it's taking and holding a charge so if it starts testing again begins. Alternator tests good, regulator open and drain the battery 🤔 Fun stuff Paul 😂 I thank you for the knowledge you share all the time.
Update. Took a charge and then held it under load. Started right up after self check, check engine light went off, out. Scanned it and no codes. My sister got home from work she started it no problem. So no open or short anywhere. Saved her fitty bucks all credits go to you Paul Danner 👍🏼
Couple things I've had with my patriot.... crank no start check the wiring harness around the left front wheel well.... corroded wires. Another issue is the vapor recovery sensor on the gas tank which causes stalling after fill up. Usually requires restart then it's fine. The fix is replacing the tank unfortunately.
Thanks For posting. Also this is a case of paying attention to waveform details. Nice to see you are posting instructional teaching videos. Also in closing high five on using your networks.
DiagnoseDan also had a video similar to this, on some European car, don’t remember which. But an aftermarket sensor had the signal inverted, and you would not see it right away. Signal looked perfect until you see it on top of a known good. Realizing it’s inverted.
The aftermarket was working backwards,pulling to ground when not on the tooth,thats why good to look for a good known waveforms,thanks for this valuable video
Ive had those with multiple issues leading up to similar problems. It was oil coming through the sensor into the pigtail, pigtail failed the drag test on the pins, and bad grounds. I had load tested the grounds using a headlight bulb and it passed. Ive been changing the sensor and pigtail with mopar stuff and changing the ground eyelits by the battery on the radiator support and the other on the frame by the belt. To check the eyelits you have to open the crimp, cut the electrical tape, and tug the wire. Pop! I thought I needed a computer because signals were dropping out but it was bad grounds not giving the computer and the sensors enough juice to work properly.
Man I love you ived been having this problem with my 2007 Dodge nitro rt4.0 for a year thinking it was the tipm was had the same thing running had to reset the key after it stalled the rpms would drop and had to restart ,only driving up to 70 mph it wouldn't happen as often sometimes the fuel pressure would stop , my problems started after comp reflash at dealer soon my crank sensor died and I put a aftermarket but now I know thank you all the symptoms you said I have
Awesome video and diagnosis, man! Thank you. Reminds me of a Bernie Thompson video I saw where the polarity of his cam sensor square wave was intermittently inverting when rpm increased, kind of similar to your crank waveform. It turned out to be a magnetized camshaft due to an improperly run ground, and when the wave inverted, it put the signal out of time since the ECM is watching for a rising edge. Current was flowing through the cam and magnetized it! Thought you might find that interesting. Have a good night!
Great video! Love going to Jimmy's shop. I feel bad for repair shops, after calling a bad part, and gambling on the part being a good working component from local suppliers. If shops has to wait on OEM repair parts, especially electrical, it will slow down repair time.Too many American companies are outsourcing manufacturing to china for profit causing this problem.
My 6.5 GM diesel had a goofy crank signal occasional hard starts. After I replaced the sensor, the polarity changed at the timing notch (just like you). Starts were then good but I always questioned that polarity shift. Good observation. Inferior components during manufacturing process.
Great video. Send the diagnostic time bill to the parts supplier, they can send it to the manufacturer. Small claims court sounds like a good idea, plus extra for pain and suffering, and in extreme bad employer cases workman's comp claim for stress.
great video , thanks to you all, ive bin burned too many times with aftermarket cam and crankshaft sensors , even to good named ones, dealer sensor are the way , thanks again
An excellent video, Paul. Since watching your videos through the years and Eric O along with working out of my garage, my first educated guess was a bad aftermarket crank sensor because of what you're brother stated at the beginning. It is sooooooo hard to get good parts and it's sad that one has to question every new part especially if it's electronics. Really a good video that proved the actual fault and that even the best can make a mistake on occasion! Have a great weekend!
Iv done a ton of these. Usually have to fix the ground terminals at same time due to dim headlight and or turn signal. The OEM sensors are like 35 bucks.
Yeah, when you've seen it before, I can understand. But to prove it on your first one, with the customers symptoms being identical as with the new sensor definitely made me look the other way. Then to see the signals were seemingly perfect and never dropping out? Yeah, not an easy call
Hi Paul, this is a damn shame! Standard parts used to be a decent replacement part! In some cases the best,even better than OE! They used to try to make parts better than OE! Good man Danners Camera man included.( Kaleb)😆
Just thinking about the bad call on the computer, and how what sounded like a the logical call, but still turned out to be the wrong call. I think your rational to not further test the computer for powers and grounds was good--you're right, any further testing of it, wouldn't have changed the call--and I think it was the logical "solution" assuming the rest of the info collected so-far was correct. I think the mistake was not looking up a known good waveform for that sensor. Had you seen that the waveform was different, that would have very quickly changed the direction away from the computer, and back towards the sensor, and been a first-time-fix. But at the same time, I also understand not looking it up, because the waveform looked good, and you had two different new sensors in the car with the same issue suggesting the sensor was unlikely to be bad! Still, I think checking against known good waveforms would have saved a lot of headache, because at the end of the day, it's the waveform that the computer sees, and it has to be a waveform the computer expects. This is a good learning experience for us viewers! Check against known good wave-forms before condemning parts, unless you're 100% sure the waveform is good. Thanks for taking us along for the ride, Paul!
I had a similar problem with a POS pt cruiser , breaking my head , trying to diagnose , two concerns after cheap AUTOZONE crankshaft sensor replacement . Car came with one concern .
The minute y’all said you put an aftermarket crank sensor I was yelling use a mopar sensor. Been down that road tooooo many times with that aftermarket 💩
Up to this 2011 Jeep, I have never, not once, had an issue with an aftermarket crank/cam sensor in a Chrysler product. Not sure the exact year this started happening, but legit, for 25 years, so all the 80s, 90s and early 2000s I have ZERO issues. O2 sensors were a different animal on these, but never the cam or crank (lol never say never!)
Profesor at 25:02 you mentioned those down spikes are normal. No they are not that is a Great classic waveform when it has secondary ignition leak to ground or bad grounds , but for the most part are the spark plugs resistance to be below 5k ohms , lo spark plug resistance , this causes damages to ckp or cmp hall efect sensor , I know the OEM ckp sensor shows that when at rest the voltaje is held pull down by the ckp transistor , how ever those spikes can cause a lot ot issues on 5 volt reference as well as the can network too. Thanks for your teaching. I own you a lot to make me a good technician.
No sir this is 100% normal and you can see them on every car when your sample rate is set very high and you're using battery ground instead of sensor ground.
I do understand your point on the sample rate . Here is a case study on another jeep similar of what you have , is from another of my favorite teacher Bernie Thonson. th-cam.com/video/udAMgRA2CRc/w-d-xo.htmlsi=4tkHVQogCqT1d_Jz
@ScannerDanner I do understand your point of sample rate , my self I do not considered those spikes normal. Here is a video for another of my favorite teachers, Bernie Thonson. Same type of symptoms, same vehicle same crank sensor code . th-cam.com/video/udAMgRA2CRc/w-d-xo.htmlsi=xcqr15ELY-08fBk7
@@JoelAutomotiveInaction so you think the factory crank sensor didn't fix this car? It's been more than a year and it's still running fine! For any car, on any system, when using a labscope, if your sample rate is high and you're using battery ground, you WILL see ignition spikes in everything! Want to make the spikes go away? Use sensor ground, they won't be there, that is the reason sensor grounds go back to the PCM. You can also drop your sample rate too. This is basic scope stuff and it's actually very common to over analyze these events. I showed very specifically in this video where the problem was and it had ZERO to do with ignition events. It was the sync notch in the waveform and the transistor turning off too soon during that time, most likely from a weak magnet. I actually had another guy comment in here that the aftermarket crank sensor measured 1/16 of an inch shorter than the factory. If that was the case, again, this would be a magnetic field issue!
@@JoelAutomotiveInaction factory crank sensor was the fix on Bernies Jeep. The rest of that was over the top, as usual. The new coils didn't fix it and neither did the grounds and he conveniently only showed one single area of ignition spikes when he was done and also never showed the engine running after cleaning the grounds without the new factory sensor.
This one really surprised me. I've seen it before including that Eric O. video. Do you think it was a bad part or the NTK was incompatible? You pointed me toward aftermarket sensors after changing the O2s and getting weird problems on a Ram a couple of years ago. You told me to watch a specific video. I couldn't get the factory sensors so I called a friend of mine that works the parts counter at the local Chrysler dealer. She told me she uses NTK when they can't get the factory ones. That did fix the truck.
Very informative. But I find it ironic that the reason I don't use aftermarket sensors for almost anything but especially crank and cam sensors is because of your video a while ago about Chrysler crank sensors needing to be dealer or they cause problems lol
I think about Eric O's video A LOT. Its the ONLY time I remember him throwing a part at something without being able to actually prove it was bad. He just based it on experience knowing thats how crank sensors fail and Chrysler doesn't like aftermarket parts. Ive always thought Mopar used NTK so its not good that Patriot didnt like the NTK sensor.
Now we know what Eric's was doing too! And I agree, NTK is the manufacturer of the Chrysler O2 sensors that use PWM heater circuits. So you'd think they'd make a good crank sensor for this, but they didn't! Crazy
I had a 2012 Chrysler 200 do that to me. Tow in for no start. No DTCs. Even scoped the crank signal at the ECM and it looked decent compared to picoscope library. Sold an ECM and still nothing. Removed crank sensor and seen it was a new aftermarket one. Tried a new mopar sensor and she fired right up.
So I was dealing with the same issue on a 2018 dodge journey 2.4. I had to get the crank sensor from the dealership. The aftermarket sensors apparently don't work right. Only code p0335
I've learned too always check the depth on the sensors with a depth gauge even factory sensors i've seen them a dollar bill thickness difference cause total disarray, trust in moses
Scanner Danner, first and foremost, you have changed my life as a technician. My brother and I are looking to officially open our own shop in the next year or two and we pride ourselves on proper diagnostics. Definitely no parts changers. I have a question about a 2018 chevy Silverado 5.3l. Vehicle came in with intermittent misfires on bank 2 all 4 cylinders. First thing I did was inspect the ground on the back of the head which is for the coil packs. It was mostly broken and corroded and the heater hoses were leaking into it. Quoted fixing both of those before further evaluation. Guy traded it in so they had me fix those issues and then sent it to another dealer. Problem is, it wasn’t fully fixed. I didn’t get to dig to deep, but still had intermittent misfires (not nearly as bad) and I found that bank 2 sensor 1 was stuck at 1800mv and when I unplugged it it dropped to 1530. They took it before I could find the wiring short. Shop foreman didn’t seem convinced that a stuck lean HO2S could cause misfires but I didn’t agree and thought that should be the direction we traveled. What do you think?
Thanks so much! As for your O2 signal, it was stuck rich, not lean, however the PCM would have been issuing lean commands (negative fuel trim) to try to correct that and absolutely, yes, you would starve all 4 cylinders of fuel on that bank. I actually have a case study showing this exact scenario! Not sure if it's here on YT or on my website though. Thanks again!
@@ScannerDanner wow brain fart, didn’t even realize I typed lean lol. I almost bought the truck cause I can’t sleep when I don’t figure something out during diagnostics. Keep fighting the good fight brother! You’ve earned a lifetime subscriber from me!
Man I swear these aftermarket part failures can make you feel like the worst tech in the field, constantly doubting yourself and seconding guessing. Stuck in your own head like what did I do wrong what did I miss, in reality nothing more then trusting aftermarket junk.
That would be nice to have a factory sensor and an aftermarket sensor and see how close to the internal as well as the external specs that you were talking about are actually met. Did they follow the print specs when they produced that sensor for sizes of the parts. Ie is the hole that the magnet moves in too big and the magnet is binding or is the spring weaker than spec and you get a bounce in the signal. I’m a machinist who worked to tight tolerances in my work.
17:10 My personal opinion is to check ignition compartment... Looks like jumping spark under heavy load, when cylinders is full of mixture and probably insulation on spark plug is damaged or can't fire properly because of gap, or ignition coil is damaged and sending spikes thru signal wire to pcm.
Aftermarket may be junk, but the issue is that most owners have to change those original factory sensors on the Compass/Patriot. So, not that different in this case....
Right off the rip. Gotta put a dealer crank sensor in it. Not saying that's what's wrong with it. But I went through the same thing. With a Jeep of this vintage. Except I had zero codes. Customer installed their own crank sensor. I didn't know. I scoped the crank sensor too. Never lost the signal. It wasn't that signal would drop out. It was that the signal was not sufficient. I put a dealer sensor and it was fixed.
@ScannerDanner Yup. Idk what changed and at what point. But aftermarket parts these days are garbage. Between cam, crank sensors, mass airflow sensors, alternators, compressors (specifically the pwm ones), purge valves and fuel pumps it's a crap shoot. I've commented before. But if I diagnose a vehicle. Then replace what I wrote it up for. And it either doesn't fix it or creates a new problem. I'll rediagnose it. And if it turns out the part is defective. I'm getting paid to rediagnose it. And I'm getting paid to replace the part again. It happens often enough that I don't tolerate not getting compensated. Thankfully the shop I work for understands this. Though it doesn't stop them from using aftermarket parts. I will say I'm glad I watched because what exactly was the difference wasn't obvious to me when I encountered this issue. The gap in the waveform wasn't even on the right side. It's crazy that it even runs. When I had this issue. It would run perfectly. No bogging. No codes. What it would do is run perfectly. Then randomly just sitting there running in the bay it would shut off. But turn right back on. So you can imagine the difficulty in trying diagnose that!
Many times those codes come after a complete emptied battery. Carefull when first jump it, because in my case it seems the sensor broke because of it. Comes with p161b . It is the sensors
I am always wary of testdriving with a scantool or scope in my lap trying to catch an issue, i prefer recording the data and analysing after the testdrive. Thank you.
Apologies, don't want to be a safety nanny 😊, i just had a near miss recently while testdriving with a scantool trying to catch a glitch. I appreciate all you put out there for dumb yokels like me. Thank you for your time and effort, please keep it up. @@ScannerDanner
you should hold the scan tool in your hand, watching it closely and only glance at the road now and then... (joking) that is the equivalent of people on their smart phones/touch screens/displays(idiot devices). 🤣
good video but let give an idea in case of pull up design to confirm it's connector problem or not here you just put the negative prop of oscilloscope in 12 volte of the battery but you will see a variation from 7v to 14v you can make it familiar with math channel
On a pull-up design, you MUST check your signal at the PCM. An open circuit can have a good signal when measured at the sensor, but have no signal at the PCM. This is NOT possible on a pull-down design circuit
Very nice video and case. I wonder if the aftermarket sensor has the same exact physical dimensions of the original one. My thinking is that if the sensor tip is not at the right distance from the teeth, it might not work as expected. If it does not hae the right dimension, it will never sit in that exact location it needs to be in.
Just an observation, the aftermarket sensor waveform looks reversed from the oem. It looks as though if you took the wave from the aftermarket sensor, flipped it upside down, and reversed, it might be the same. If that's the case, the aftermarket sensor has a reverse internal circuit than the oem.
![Intermittent No Start [Magnetic Type Crank Sensor Testing - ALL CARS!]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/tqnNsFdifSE/mqdefault.jpg)
![Engine Dies While Servicing A/C System [Who Pays?]](/img/n.gif)
Do NOT use an aftermarket crank sensor on this model! Here is the @SouthMainAuto video Eric did that bailed me out on this one th-cam.com/video/iScpoqe_hgw/w-d-xo.htmlsi=aq8X29GDw3AmGTdd
Don’t use aftermarket cps sensors on any Jeep from what I have seen!!!
@M_Phipps0520 on 80s, 90s and early 2000s you will have ZERO issue with aftermarket cam and crank sensors. This 2011 was the first one I've seen like this
Wrong !!!
Read the forums on Jeep vehicles!
@@M_Phipps0520 don't need to now, do I 😊
Great video Paul and Caleb as always. This is another example that this community is helping one another. I have learned so much from your channel and Eric O. and Ivan and others. Thank you much for sharing your knowledge. God Bless.
Oilers sweep Cup Final, book it. Nice work again Mr Danner. You and the diag community are so valuable to all of us. Super Mario, Pine Hollow, South Main, Royalty, Mechanic Mindset and others. Not only the tech information, but the presentation and teaching methods. Lets hope the Electric Vehicle generation is blessed by similar sharing and learning.
Stay gold.
I'm very much blessed by all of these guys! And for you all too! God bless my friend
Should have pinned the link to ERIC O's video here instead of this Oilers Fan. LOL
@@KStewart-th4sk Eric O video is in the description, it's in a card, and it's in the comments
@@ScannerDanner Sorry about that Paul, i must have had a brain malfunction. Somehow i missed it in the description EVEN though it's right there in the first line now that i looked again! I did see you had linked it farther down in the comment section which is why i made the comment about pinning it at the top.
This is the same issue I was having with A Honda CKP just recently at my friends shop. I used my scope and captured and seen the failing waveform and dropout. I saw your post on FB and said this sounds just like the Honda I just did. The shop I was helping was gonna throw a PCM in it, til I dug in and found this! Aftermarket CKP didn't have a strong magnet and under hard acel it would fade and drop out. The OEM CKP Solved the problem and was viably noticeable on the scope. Great video and lesson for the team!
Which Honda and year was that? Have the waveform saved?
@@bekomcar554 2016 Accord 2.0 I will have to see if I saved them.
@@RichardSandstrom1163 Would really appreciate if you could at your convenient time just have a quick look around the file. Hope there is and psdata format. I wonder what the waveform differences are like.
@@bekomcar554 Sorry I looked and I did not save the file it was only in memory as I was doing my test. I didn't save it.
@@RichardSandstrom1163 Not a worry, and yet thanks for your attention. Cheers.
Finally James Danner on the show, cant tell you how excited I'm😍😍😍
Thanks for sharing SD😍😍😍
Special Thanks to cameraman Caleb😎
Stay Blessed Guy's🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
I've been burnt a lot lately with customers bringing in their own 'less expensive' Amazon parts for install. I think there is a big market today in counterfeit automotive parts, along with customers doing their own diagnostics and insisting you install the part based on their research. Great video Paul. A absolute real life scenario that we all have or will soon face in this industry! Keep these videos coming!!!
Thanks man
This year alone we have had a Jeep and a Lexus that would not run right with aftermarket crank sensors. Even after trying several. Random misfires, but no more crank sensor codes. OEM part, fixed.
Aftermarket Blower resistors in a Trax, after trying several, OEM fixed...even mechanical fuel pumps on a Jeep that make too much fuel pressure. Mechanics beware.
Nice work guys!
Thank you! S*** parts are everywhere!
"Fitment" 😁. 👍. Don't worry about having to eat the ECM. ECM's are lead free now. Excellent case study
I dealt with this same exact issue at a jeep dealership I worked at, they were convinced the transmission was going to shit. Awesome work good sir
My philosophy has always been, any component that talks to the PCM should be OEM, since aftermarket is so unreliable and usually junk. Great video Paul you went the distance brother!
Thank you for showing the whole process, not just the fix. It's great having friends to lean on!
Too crazy brought this up
Several years back
Had a customer bring in a 7.3 Ford diesel
The engine would only stall when you turn on intermittent wipers
Normal wipers engine would not stall
Truck run fine
After losing sleep and pulling my hair out
It turned out to be
Aftermarket sync sensor
Put a factory one in
Repaired the problem
Yes, the truck had an aftermarket sensor in it
Once again, didn’t buy cheap parts
Great video keep them coming
Great Video Paul - Yep, thats what I tell my friends DO NOT, DO NOT Replace OEM electronic engine components for fuel, ignition & timing with aftermarket replacements !! Keep up the great Work to you and Son Caleb !!!!
So again, I find myself saying to you, thank you for always keeping it real. Not everything in our industry is black-and-white. Another job well done. Thank you for what you do.
Wow, Great stuff!!! I am getting my son-in-laws Patriot in the morning for the same problem. This helps me big time on determining when the trouble shooting exceeds both my skill and equipment capabilities. Thank you!!!
So glad that I don't have to deal with using junk aftermarket parts as a dealer technician.
Working for a dealer has it's negatives. I use to work for dealerships and I always said never again. What I've noticed around here, though, is that dealers have a tendency to purchase aftermarket parts because they don't stock squat for parts.
We're seeing dealers near us using aftermarket parts like crazy. We're even getting parts in Chrysler boxes that are Dorman brand.
Doesn't matter if you work in dealer, I lot "technician" from the dealer don't know how to make a diagnostic. They put dealer part but can't fixed it
I've had bad new OEM parts, too! Got an OEM GM wheel speed sensor with no magnet in it, once, lol
Right because dealers never use aftermarket parts 😂😂😂
I can see where the sensor pulls the voltage down and holds it down for the duration of the index. But on the aftermarket sensor, it pulls it down and immediately lets go of it and takes the next tooth to regain its cadence. Great video. I use the information in videos to know when to insist on factory parts. However, I must add that a parts store MAF saved my Merc back in 2008 and has been doing fine with periodic cleaning ever since. I probably just jinxed it.
Exactly what was happening! It was letting it go too soon.
And honestly, for the 80s, 90s and early 2000s (25 year range) I NEVER, not once had an issue with an aftermarket crank or cam sensor on ANY Chrysler product.
@ScannerDanner ive seen plenty bad aftermarket crank sensors for the magnum 3.9, 5.2, 5.9s. Dont know about the other chrysler engines but that's the first thing I thought at the beginning of the video
Omg, I have the same fn problem with my daughters 2012 jeep compas with the same code. In the last year I ve put two crank sensors frim auto zone and it just did it again three days ago, installed another crank senso and it died the next day.now i dont have the diag scanner that you have just a small reader type one but your trouble shooting technics is spot on. Gonna get a factory sensor and see what happens... Thanks for the video....Craig from Balt Md.
Factory sensor will fix it! Let me know how it goes please. Thank you!
I had to laugh when you said, we're gonna punch the car right here. Right after you pass the 25 mile an hour speed limit sign. I've got my fair share of speeding tickets In 25 mile an hour zones. If you can try to wait to get into35 or 45 mile an hour zones or even on the freeway. Just so you don't get a ticket, it raises your car insurance and everything. Another great case study from your channel. Which I've come to expect.😁😁😁
As far pricing the job, I'd charge my standard diagnosis plus parts and labor. Any additional diagnosis time, I'd be talking to my vendor and/or the manufacturers rep if possible about compensation. His part created the problem. I've had them help in a situation like this under "Goodwill"
Testing a Hyundai right now. No power battery was 4.5 it's taking and holding a charge so if it starts testing again begins. Alternator tests good, regulator open and drain the battery 🤔
Fun stuff Paul 😂
I thank you for the knowledge you share all the time.
Update. Took a charge and then held it under load. Started right up after self check, check engine light went off, out. Scanned it and no codes. My sister got home from work she started it no problem. So no open or short anywhere. Saved her fitty bucks all credits go to you Paul Danner 👍🏼
Couple things I've had with my patriot.... crank no start check the wiring harness around the left front wheel well.... corroded wires. Another issue is the vapor recovery sensor on the gas tank which causes stalling after fill up. Usually requires restart then it's fine. The fix is replacing the tank unfortunately.
Thanks For posting. Also this is a case of paying attention to waveform details. Nice to see you are posting instructional teaching videos. Also in closing high five on using your networks.
Thank you for the comment! Nice to have you onboard
DiagnoseDan also had a video similar to this, on some European car, don’t remember which. But an aftermarket sensor had the signal inverted, and you would not see it right away. Signal looked perfect until you see it on top of a known good. Realizing it’s inverted.
What a great case study and without a doubt what a good experience you share with us. Thank you. 👌
The aftermarket was working backwards,pulling to ground when not on the tooth,thats why good to look for a good known waveforms,thanks for this valuable video
Thanks! It wasn't backwards, it was fine up to thr sync notch and it was letting go too soon during that gap. Weak magnet imo
My 2 favorite TH-cam auto channels SD and south main! Also love seeing you work with jamsi on your engine!
Ive had those with multiple issues leading up to similar problems. It was oil coming through the sensor into the pigtail, pigtail failed the drag test on the pins, and bad grounds. I had load tested the grounds using a headlight bulb and it passed. Ive been changing the sensor and pigtail with mopar stuff and changing the ground eyelits by the battery on the radiator support and the other on the frame by the belt. To check the eyelits you have to open the crimp, cut the electrical tape, and tug the wire. Pop! I thought I needed a computer because signals were dropping out but it was bad grounds not giving the computer and the sensors enough juice to work properly.
Hi Paul, i know one rules in diagnosis, if need to change some parts, change cheaper parts.
In this case it work right.
Man I love you ived been having this problem with my 2007 Dodge nitro rt4.0 for a year thinking it was the tipm was had the same thing running had to reset the key after it stalled the rpms would drop and had to restart ,only driving up to 70 mph it wouldn't happen as often sometimes the fuel pressure would stop , my problems started after comp reflash at dealer soon my crank sensor died and I put a aftermarket but now I know thank you all the symptoms you said I have
Let me know how it goes with a factory sensor! Thank you
Awesome video and diagnosis, man! Thank you. Reminds me of a Bernie Thompson video I saw where the polarity of his cam sensor square wave was intermittently inverting when rpm increased, kind of similar to your crank waveform. It turned out to be a magnetized camshaft due to an improperly run ground, and when the wave inverted, it put the signal out of time since the ECM is watching for a rising edge. Current was flowing through the cam and magnetized it! Thought you might find that interesting. Have a good night!
I think a factory sensor would have fixed that car too. 😉
Great video! Love going to Jimmy's shop. I feel bad for repair shops, after calling a bad part, and gambling on the part being a good working component from local suppliers. If shops has to wait on OEM repair parts, especially electrical, it will slow down repair time.Too many American companies are outsourcing manufacturing to china for profit causing this problem.
My 6.5 GM diesel had a goofy crank signal occasional hard starts. After I replaced the sensor, the polarity changed at the timing notch (just like you). Starts were then good but I always questioned that polarity shift. Good observation. Inferior components during manufacturing process.
👍 thanks for sharing! I own one of these.
Cudos to you guys for running an honest business.
Great video.
Send the diagnostic time bill to the parts supplier, they can send it to the manufacturer.
Small claims court sounds like a good idea, plus extra for pain and suffering, and in extreme bad employer cases workman's comp claim
for stress.
Wow! That is a very good video, very informative. Thaks Paul!
great video , thanks to you all, ive bin burned too many times with aftermarket cam and crankshaft sensors , even to good named ones, dealer sensor are the way , thanks again
An excellent video, Paul. Since watching your videos through the years and Eric O along with working out of my garage, my first educated guess was a bad aftermarket crank sensor because of what you're brother stated at the beginning. It is sooooooo hard to get good parts and it's sad that one has to question every new part especially if it's electronics. Really a good video that proved the actual fault and that even the best can make a mistake on occasion! Have a great weekend!
What through us off, was the symptoms didn't change from the original complaint. So I looked away from the sensor as the cause (at first).
Thank you!
Thanks team Danner for another great video.
Nice that you do show your mistakes in calling a bad ecm im sure as good as you are is very rare but not many channels will show their misdiags
It's important for the learner to show the mistakes. Just as important as the fix imo!
Thank you!
Iv done a ton of these. Usually have to fix the ground terminals at same time due to dim headlight and or turn signal. The OEM sensors are like 35 bucks.
Yeah, when you've seen it before, I can understand. But to prove it on your first one, with the customers symptoms being identical as with the new sensor definitely made me look the other way. Then to see the signals were seemingly perfect and never dropping out? Yeah, not an easy call
Very informative video.! Very helpful and a good lesson..! Thanks again..!
Hi Paul, this is a damn shame! Standard parts used to be a decent replacement part! In some cases the best,even better than OE! They used to try to make parts better than OE! Good man Danners Camera man included.( Kaleb)😆
Just thinking about the bad call on the computer, and how what sounded like a the logical call, but still turned out to be the wrong call.
I think your rational to not further test the computer for powers and grounds was good--you're right, any further testing of it, wouldn't have changed the call--and I think it was the logical "solution" assuming the rest of the info collected so-far was correct.
I think the mistake was not looking up a known good waveform for that sensor.
Had you seen that the waveform was different, that would have very quickly changed the direction away from the computer, and back towards the sensor, and been a first-time-fix.
But at the same time, I also understand not looking it up, because the waveform looked good, and you had two different new sensors in the car with the same issue suggesting the sensor was unlikely to be bad!
Still, I think checking against known good waveforms would have saved a lot of headache, because at the end of the day, it's the waveform that the computer sees, and it has to be a waveform the computer expects.
This is a good learning experience for us viewers! Check against known good wave-forms before condemning parts, unless you're 100% sure the waveform is good.
Thanks for taking us along for the ride, Paul!
I had a similar problem with a POS pt cruiser , breaking my head , trying to diagnose , two concerns after cheap AUTOZONE crankshaft sensor replacement .
Car came with one concern .
this is a prime example of why certain parts I only use oem
Wow that just shows not to trust in aftermarket parts, incredible!
Great video Paul , thanks for sharing your knowledge .🇦🇺
The minute y’all said you put an aftermarket crank sensor I was yelling use a mopar sensor. Been down that road tooooo many times with that aftermarket 💩
Up to this 2011 Jeep, I have never, not once, had an issue with an aftermarket crank/cam sensor in a Chrysler product. Not sure the exact year this started happening, but legit, for 25 years, so all the 80s, 90s and early 2000s I have ZERO issues.
O2 sensors were a different animal on these, but never the cam or crank (lol never say never!)
Profesor at 25:02 you mentioned those down spikes are normal. No they are not that is a Great classic waveform when it has secondary ignition leak to ground or bad grounds , but for the most part are the spark plugs resistance to be below 5k ohms , lo spark plug resistance , this causes damages to ckp or cmp hall efect sensor , I know the OEM ckp sensor shows that when at rest the voltaje is held pull down by the ckp transistor , how ever those spikes can cause a lot ot issues on 5 volt reference as well as the can network too.
Thanks for your teaching. I own you a lot to make me a good technician.
No sir this is 100% normal and you can see them on every car when your sample rate is set very high and you're using battery ground instead of sensor ground.
I do understand your point on the sample rate .
Here is a case study on another jeep similar of what you have , is from another of my favorite teacher Bernie Thonson.
th-cam.com/video/udAMgRA2CRc/w-d-xo.htmlsi=4tkHVQogCqT1d_Jz
@ScannerDanner I do understand your point of sample rate , my self I do not considered those spikes normal.
Here is a video for another of my favorite teachers, Bernie Thonson.
Same type of symptoms, same vehicle same crank sensor code .
th-cam.com/video/udAMgRA2CRc/w-d-xo.htmlsi=xcqr15ELY-08fBk7
@@JoelAutomotiveInaction so you think the factory crank sensor didn't fix this car? It's been more than a year and it's still running fine!
For any car, on any system, when using a labscope, if your sample rate is high and you're using battery ground, you WILL see ignition spikes in everything!
Want to make the spikes go away? Use sensor ground, they won't be there, that is the reason sensor grounds go back to the PCM. You can also drop your sample rate too.
This is basic scope stuff and it's actually very common to over analyze these events.
I showed very specifically in this video where the problem was and it had ZERO to do with ignition events. It was the sync notch in the waveform and the transistor turning off too soon during that time, most likely from a weak magnet. I actually had another guy comment in here that the aftermarket crank sensor measured 1/16 of an inch shorter than the factory. If that was the case, again, this would be a magnetic field issue!
@@JoelAutomotiveInaction factory crank sensor was the fix on Bernies Jeep. The rest of that was over the top, as usual.
The new coils didn't fix it and neither did the grounds and he conveniently only showed one single area of ignition spikes when he was done and also never showed the engine running after cleaning the grounds without the new factory sensor.
interesting case study . thanks paul for this video . pico is perfect tool .
It really is!
What's the odds of the same symptoms from different sensors. Crazy. Thanks for sharing.
Right? It's why I looked away from the sensor in the first place and was convinced of a module issue.
probably the same exact internal parts(bad/wrong), in a different mold/stamping.
1: Don't forget to thank Eric O.! 2: NTK care enough about quality to want to hear about this.
Oh I did for sure. I also put his video in the description and in the comments and in a "card" in the video itself when I mentioned it!
This one really surprised me. I've seen it before including that Eric O. video. Do you think it was a bad part or the NTK was incompatible? You pointed me toward aftermarket sensors after changing the O2s and getting weird problems on a Ram a couple of years ago. You told me to watch a specific video. I couldn't get the factory sensors so I called a friend of mine that works the parts counter at the local Chrysler dealer. She told me she uses NTK when they can't get the factory ones. That did fix the truck.
NTK is the manufacturer of Chrysler O2 sensors in certain years, I guess they dropped the ball on the crank sensor. I don't know. Thanks!
bad signal intermittently explain the jerking issue, what about car dying? thanks for another great case study.
Same cause
Very informative. But I find it ironic that the reason I don't use aftermarket sensors for almost anything but especially crank and cam sensors is because of your video a while ago about Chrysler crank sensors needing to be dealer or they cause problems lol
Well done Paul, great find. That is real life repair, time available V fitting a part. Excellent tutorial 🙏🙏
Wow. Amazing catch! I definitely would not have caught that. Even in pico data.
It was a very difficult one for sure!
I lost confidence on after market sensors a long time ago
AWESOME OUTSTANDING JOB THANKS
I think about Eric O's video A LOT. Its the ONLY time I remember him throwing a part at something without being able to actually prove it was bad. He just based it on experience knowing thats how crank sensors fail and Chrysler doesn't like aftermarket parts. Ive always thought Mopar used NTK so its not good that Patriot didnt like the NTK sensor.
Now we know what Eric's was doing too! And I agree, NTK is the manufacturer of the Chrysler O2 sensors that use PWM heater circuits. So you'd think they'd make a good crank sensor for this, but they didn't! Crazy
I had a 2012 Chrysler 200 do that to me. Tow in for no start. No DTCs. Even scoped the crank signal at the ECM and it looked decent compared to picoscope library. Sold an ECM and still nothing. Removed crank sensor and seen it was a new aftermarket one. Tried a new mopar sensor and she fired right up.
Thank you so much for sharing it.
Finding a 'known good" signal is crucial
Had bad aftermarket cam sensor long crank time setting a dtc had a choice ecm or Delco cam sensor chose Delco sensor first.fixed it
Mr dan youre my hero
Caleb, you are an *******
I started to reply, my name is Paul..., but then I saw it was you 😂
😂 good one Caleb
So I was dealing with the same issue on a 2018 dodge journey 2.4. I had to get the crank sensor from the dealership. The aftermarket sensors apparently don't work right. Only code p0335
HA! I KNEW IT! 22:51 I commented before I finished the video
I've learned too always check the depth on the sensors with a depth gauge even factory sensors i've seen them a dollar bill thickness difference cause total disarray, trust in moses
According to my brother, the aftermarket and factory sensors were identical
Scanner Danner, first and foremost, you have changed my life as a technician. My brother and I are looking to officially open our own shop in the next year or two and we pride ourselves on proper diagnostics. Definitely no parts changers.
I have a question about a 2018 chevy Silverado 5.3l. Vehicle came in with intermittent misfires on bank 2 all 4 cylinders. First thing I did was inspect the ground on the back of the head which is for the coil packs. It was mostly broken and corroded and the heater hoses were leaking into it. Quoted fixing both of those before further evaluation. Guy traded it in so they had me fix those issues and then sent it to another dealer. Problem is, it wasn’t fully fixed. I didn’t get to dig to deep, but still had intermittent misfires (not nearly as bad) and I found that bank 2 sensor 1 was stuck at 1800mv and when I unplugged it it dropped to 1530.
They took it before I could find the wiring short. Shop foreman didn’t seem convinced that a stuck lean HO2S could cause misfires but I didn’t agree and thought that should be the direction we traveled. What do you think?
Thanks so much!
As for your O2 signal, it was stuck rich, not lean, however the PCM would have been issuing lean commands (negative fuel trim) to try to correct that and absolutely, yes, you would starve all 4 cylinders of fuel on that bank. I actually have a case study showing this exact scenario! Not sure if it's here on YT or on my website though.
Thanks again!
@@ScannerDanner wow brain fart, didn’t even realize I typed lean lol. I almost bought the truck cause I can’t sleep when I don’t figure something out during diagnostics.
Keep fighting the good fight brother! You’ve earned a lifetime subscriber from me!
@brendonwilson4838 no problem, I figured you knew that. They were lean commands for sure! Thank you!
Man I swear these aftermarket part failures can make you feel like the worst tech in the field, constantly doubting yourself and seconding guessing. Stuck in your own head like what did I do wrong what did I miss, in reality nothing more then trusting aftermarket junk.
All techs mentioned are amazing. I watch and say ; How do you know all this stuff?
The after market sensor wave form looks like it's inverted, don't you think the pins at the sensor are different 🤔
It's not, only the sync notch was affected
That would be nice to have a factory sensor and an aftermarket sensor and see how close to the internal as well as the external specs that you were talking about are actually met. Did they follow the print specs when they produced that sensor for sizes of the parts. Ie is the hole that the magnet moves in too big and the magnet is binding or is the spring weaker than spec and you get a bounce in the signal. I’m a machinist who worked to tight tolerances in my work.
The external housings were identical according to my brother (he changed the sensor). Internally would be a challenge for sure. Thanks!
17:10 My personal opinion is to check ignition compartment... Looks like jumping spark under heavy load, when cylinders is full of mixture and probably insulation on spark plug is damaged or can't fire properly because of gap, or ignition coil is damaged and sending spikes thru signal wire to pcm.
I'm sure you've watched to the end by now. Thanks!
@@ScannerDanner Yes, but i not want to delete or made another comment.
Thanks anyway.
Aftermarket may be junk, but the issue is that most owners have to change those original factory sensors on the Compass/Patriot. So, not that different in this case....
Not sure what your point is?
Danner’s beard is amazing. I can’t even grow a beard. I feel like less of a man.
😂😂 me too
Great video Paul
Right off the rip. Gotta put a dealer crank sensor in it. Not saying that's what's wrong with it. But I went through the same thing. With a Jeep of this vintage. Except I had zero codes. Customer installed their own crank sensor. I didn't know. I scoped the crank sensor too. Never lost the signal. It wasn't that signal would drop out. It was that the signal was not sufficient. I put a dealer sensor and it was fixed.
Keep watching! Thanks!
@ScannerDanner Yup. Idk what changed and at what point. But aftermarket parts these days are garbage. Between cam, crank sensors, mass airflow sensors, alternators, compressors (specifically the pwm ones), purge valves and fuel pumps it's a crap shoot. I've commented before. But if I diagnose a vehicle. Then replace what I wrote it up for. And it either doesn't fix it or creates a new problem. I'll rediagnose it. And if it turns out the part is defective. I'm getting paid to rediagnose it. And I'm getting paid to replace the part again. It happens often enough that I don't tolerate not getting compensated. Thankfully the shop I work for understands this. Though it doesn't stop them from using aftermarket parts. I will say I'm glad I watched because what exactly was the difference wasn't obvious to me when I encountered this issue. The gap in the waveform wasn't even on the right side. It's crazy that it even runs. When I had this issue. It would run perfectly. No bogging. No codes. What it would do is run perfectly. Then randomly just sitting there running in the bay it would shut off. But turn right back on. So you can imagine the difficulty in trying diagnose that!
Love this comment, all of it! And damn, people really don't understand how difficult of a call these can be
Many times those codes come after a complete emptied battery. Carefull when first jump it, because in my case it seems the sensor broke because of it. Comes with p161b . It is the sensors
?
I am always wary of testdriving with a scantool or scope in my lap trying to catch an issue, i prefer recording the data and analysing after the testdrive. Thank you.
Understood
Apologies, don't want to be a safety nanny 😊, i just had a near miss recently while testdriving with a scantool trying to catch a glitch. I appreciate all you put out there for dumb yokels like me. Thank you for your time and effort, please keep it up. @@ScannerDanner
@@mrblonde2013glad nothing happened and you're okay!
you should hold the scan tool in your hand, watching it closely and only glance at the road now and then... (joking)
that is the equivalent of people on their smart phones/touch screens/displays(idiot devices). 🤣
Not to the end yet just started but was curious if this could be and cam crank corelation issue ?? Just making an guess before the end 🙃
You would have cam/crank correlation faults, typically. But yes, cam timing would be a suspect
@ScannerDanner cool just an game I like playing where you guess the issue then finish the video to see the fix to see if you where right
good video but let give an idea in case of pull up design to confirm it's connector problem or not here you just put the negative prop of oscilloscope in 12 volte of the battery but you will see a variation from 7v to 14v you can make it familiar with math channel
On a pull-up design, you MUST check your signal at the PCM. An open circuit can have a good signal when measured at the sensor, but have no signal at the PCM. This is NOT possible on a pull-down design circuit
Learned my lesson with aftermarket sensors years ago; don't do it! Always use OEM sensors!
So very good 👍🏼 ! Thanks !!
👊🏼 🔥
Very nice video and case. I wonder if the aftermarket sensor has the same exact physical dimensions of the original one. My thinking is that if the sensor tip is not at the right distance from the teeth, it might not work as expected. If it does not hae the right dimension, it will never sit in that exact location it needs to be in.
According to my brother, they were identical
Great video as usual,
But I didn't see the link
To mr Eric o' video..
I think that will be Great vid to learn too
just added it in the description and in the comments here. Thanks!
I’m fighting with a 19 Jeep compass & a 15 ram 1500. Communication, can & changing codes.
Those are always fun when they are intermittent
Just an observation, the aftermarket sensor waveform looks reversed from the oem. It looks as though if you took the wave from the aftermarket sensor, flipped it upside down, and reversed, it might be the same. If that's the case, the aftermarket sensor has a reverse internal circuit than the oem.
Only during the sync area, all other signals were fine. In the sync area, it was pulling it down correctly, but letting it go too soon. Thanks!
Hi Paul, i think the signal form is inverted !
Crank sensors are a very common issue on these. I lost my butt on one a couple of weeks ago.
Cool video Paul.
Could a cracked flex plate cause this issue?? As it did it under load. Never mind great video 👊🏻
This was great man, Thanks!
parts changer lol
I though danner learned his lesson last time he just threw a sensor in it this is like deja vu
Maybe dissect a few sensors vs the factory one to see if you can find the difference
These things are covered in epoxy
Nice 1, Danners. What a head-scratcher!💪🏻
What did supplier of said afermarket sensor have to say.....?
Not sure
Maybe semi-conductor tolerances messed up by the COVID palaver.@@ScannerDanner
May be First sensor using pnp transistor
Pauls face @0:43 says it all.
Where do we pick up one of those long reach wire piercer?
I've heard they're on backorder
www.aeswave.com/scannerdanner
What a mess! But On the bright side, It's a good thing that the ECM reports it as a bad CKP sensor 🙃
Not really lol