Your Cycling Training needs MAXIMAL efforts | Are you doing these?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.ย. 2024
- Discussing what a maximal effort session is and how it can be implemented into training (structured and unstructured)
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Footage courtesy of Chris Miller, Nero Racing.
I am old school and raced A grade for years but to me the training was actually better before we all had power meters on our bikes… exactly as you mentioned when you did efforts, you went bloody hard. Develops all the systems and very importantly mental toughness.
While I'm merely a starter, I do also not have any meters on my bicycle (anymore) except a stop watch (time counter), and therefore you could argue I am training “old school” as well (polarized). I end up going to the maximum quite often. It is the logical thing to do. If I am doing intervals, I do care to make them the same effort (same stretch of road, same cadence/gear), and then I repeat until I can't repeat it anymore. Since I have no meters, I have no clue if I get better without doing a time trial, so et least once a block of 4 I do one of my standard time trials. Last time I went so crazy hard, I had to slow down near the finish, dropped in the grass panting to survive, and two times someone stopped to ask if I was ok. Just absolute maximum lol. I decided I didn't do enough intensity so I started to put a tempo block in _all_ my rides starting on the half hour then every hour. Right now I ended over trained from it so forced rest week because I feel I'm getting injured. But that's ok, now I find the limit. I already once caused myself a muscle injury from going too far/hard. But that's good, this is how I know I'm putting in the best I could. A bad injury though, would be bad. I don't discount power meters and stuff, but it's a specialization of its own, and without any meters is also its own specialization, and I like it that way because it is more natural, from the inside out and you can keep your eyes on the road. Best of luck to all, sorry for going on about it.
@@josboersema1352 how is it going man, does it work for you?
This is great advice, I had never considered that I should be doing these, but it makes a lot of sense! Thanks Jesse!
Fantastic video and great advice‼️ I always felt kinda guilty not following my TR workout on VO2 sessions and typically going harder than prescribed. But now I see my intuition was right 😊
I personally dread a maximal session. I also find I never really hit max unless it’s in a race or FTP Test, I just think I am.
When I was self coaching I would literally never max out in training. Doing an effort at 100% will of course give you better stimulus then doing it at 95%. But I found it wasn’t worth the trade off the next day. 100% training efforts would compromise the rest of the week for me. So I found I was better off doing efforts more consistently at 90-95% and having a better week overall.
Personal preference though. I train a lot. If I was working 5 days a week and training for 7 hours a week I would probably be chomping at the bit to do intervals at 100%.
Or intervals at 107%...
I like to keep it fun, if I know the effort is killing me I'll finish the session but not maximally. I find that the next time I have to do the session I can push it maximally, but even if i can't I'll wait until i know my body can do it.
I find that this approach keeps me motivated, it means I'm not unduly stressing my body, but also making sure that I can recover and redo the sessions, at which point I'll post up a victory salute, hence keeping it fun.
Awesome video. Dare I say your best one yet
This is why I never have watts visible on my head unit during intervals, only lap time. Only exception is 20+ minute efforts for the first 3-4 minutes so I don’t go off too hard. Once it’s dialled in, it’s hidden. Think about it: NOTHING good can come from looking at the numbers, but bad numbers can demotivate you
One thing you can do to optimize the targets with erg - just increasing our decreasing it while training. E.g. in zwift it's super easy with zwift play - you just controll it with the side buttons. The only thing I don't like that they limit it to 25%, but usually it's enough for me.
So you feel good - add 5-10%, still good - 25%, in a minute think that it is too much and lower it back to 100%.
p.s. and also you can adjust the intensity while doing the ramp test, so you got 15 or 10 watts increments instead of 20
But for some reason you cannot do this with zwift play, only in the companion app or on Zwift itself (it would be nice, because at the end you could just decrease the intensity by a few percents and push a little bit more - it would not work with the app, because when you cannot breath, it's nearly impossible to click that small +- symbols).
I would agree with you about the online programs and the box ticking but I don't necessarily agree that you need maximal efforts in training (although I'm not really sure what you mean by a maximal effort) We know from Stephen Seiler and other researchers that world class endurance athletes tend to prefer longer intervals or more intervals in a session at a lower intensity (~8-9/10 effort) rather than shorter 10/10 efforts. From what I can see there are only so many times you can really go to the max in a season before the wheels start falling off. But perhaps it depends, could be athletes out there that require max efforts to get a big enough training stimulus to perform well 🤷♂️
I’m not sure that I really agree with this. As long as you have determined your current maximal limits and determined your zones correctly then the key determinant for progress and adoration is time in zone rather than going maximally on any individual effort. For example with vo2 efforts the science seems to suggest that any work above 90% of max HR is appropriate, so you should aim to maximise the number of intervals/duration at that intensity, not do fewer efforts/less reps but at slightly higher intensity.
Yep the vast majority of your training should sub-maximal
Yes. Awesome. People just don't get this. This is what makes the diffference between a winner and 2nd place. The problem is so many people are content with 2nd place.
Another name for 2nd place = 1st loser. The effort that is necessary to make it to first place is beyond many peoples emotional ability. Not because they can't, but because they won't put in the effort. They refuse to. Some just want the short cut to 1st and so the industry has a doping problem.
Thanks for this video. I am just ticking the boxes right now. I will start to ride outside or do an indoor race to push myself.
This confirms what I've heard from world Tour training sessions
Some good points here, and a few of the reasons why I don't like the "cookie cutter" workout plans from the more popular training apps.
eg...What about setting an erg mode target just above vo2(if 2 mins) and just going as fast as you can with cadence and finding the limit
Hi Jesse thanks for the vid and sharing . I am a keen amateur cyclist and masters cat racer . I have found that when I push my body maximally in sessions I get sick 1 day later or so 🤷♂️. 6 weeks ago did a really tough race prep session and next day got a nasty cold virus 🦠 . 5 days later resume training and then Saturday just gone did a really hard 2 hr over under session and the next day got Covid ! My question is how do you protect against getting sick after really pushing the body maximally ?
Am I right in saying that you want to workout as a whole to be max effort? Because I think doing 4 x 4min v02 max efforts at 120% ftp is probably better than doing one single ball buster 4min effort at 135% ftp and then not being able to complete the rest of the session? Or am I wrong?
You need to spend an appropriate time in zone to achieve adaptation yes, but within that you need to know that you are causing sufficient stimulation to trigger adaptations. The point he’s making with ERG mode in particular is that it “caps” you, whereas if you are feeling stronger you should push harder. If you go back to Andy Coggan, then zones were only ever intended to be descriptive not prescriptive - you should go by RPE. This is the point that Jesse is making.
Thanks for the video, you answered my questions on how hard max sessions should be. I manage to hit 95-100% max HR, but I really struggle to recover following these sessions, and feel like I've hit a plateau. I feel like it's because of my fuelling during these sessions, which I've been working on (trying to take more carbs on during the session).
Just FYI,
You do not need to be hitting 95%+ mhr for an interval session to have value.
Threshold intervals are well below maximum heat rate and have significant value.
I feel like the point he was trying to make was, if you are doing specific zone intervals (let’s say a zone that puts you at anaerobic threshold) doing one or two intervals may not be enough to promote an adaptation. Athletes should therefore do enough repeats of their intervals to ensure the ‘training session’ (not the individual interval) was hard enough (or as he calls it maximum efforts).
I've always trained this way, thought it was wrong and felt guilty for it. Once I get started the eye of the tiger starts calling and the drool starts flying. I tend to do the max I can for the time period prescribed.
Pacing these efforts just right is a very difficult process. What is your strategy of getting there? Is it blowing and hanging on for dear life and maybe pull back a little bit next interval?
I clicked into this video for my queue today because of Goku going super saiyan on the thumbnail.
A good idea I had was to do like a 1 min effort or 5 or 10 then you have data to compare to
I have a great hill for 70-80 second efforts. Doing repeats if I feel like I'm going to vomit at the top each time, then I know I hit my target.
Hi Jesse, did you know about XERT platform? their concept is like that, you need to do maximal efforts to maintain the fitness signature.
What do you think to heart rate I find no issue with power training but I'm 46 my heart doesn't seem to want to go above 160 at an max effort and yes as hard as I could my heart rate seems low and feel bad because I couldn't get it up to what my max heart rate should be
Jesse i use ERG all the time except sprints , and i also agree with your max effort philosophy , so if i'm doing 4 x 8 mins @ 105% i'll do the first 3 in ERG mode then turn it off for the last and go and go all out to the max , failure . Best of both worlds.
Yip sometimes U have to go very close to your limit , yeah and if I am doing Vo2 max or sprint effort I switch of erg mode 😁
If you're confident in your plan and know your limits well, I still don't see the point of maximal efforts (unless it's sprinting). There are some extremely hard Vo2 max workouts on Zwift which almost make you feel like you're not going to complete them, but I always complete them because my FTP is set correctly and I trust the workout author.
I can see why as a Coach you would want clients doing maximal efforts to more easily track their performance, but as a rider who "coaches" themselves and knows their own body, I still see no reason.
I think we somewhat agree. A hard VO2max session should be near maximal, you won't stimulate much of an increase in VO2max power if the VO2max sessions are only getting to 8/10 effort level. If you're getting up to a 9 or 10/10 effort level in the sessions you are talking about, then awesome.
There's also a difference between testing efforts and what I'm referring to here which are maximal or near maximal efforts in training.
@@nerocoaching Come to Europe in CX season = V02 mode activated
Good info bruh
i can only ride 2x a week so everytime i jump in the saddle i ride hard and at the finish line i gave all i have😅
Hi Jesse, good videos... Am I right that your data on your calendar doesn't show elevation for your training rides? Would be good to see if possible :)
Firm believer in Polar. but i love ERG. Those hard days are sure hard. In fact i failed my last session. (4x8s last 2min of each 110%, only made 1 and then rest just did the 6min @ 100%). But it was at my latest test # and i was a lil flat/low on sleep. But last several hard days of each wk i've been pretty dead but made it. my 2nd hard day of the wk is from lifting and ZRacing which isnt near as hard as a session (save for the end maybe). -U10
Would you go by TSS to plan sessions.?
One approach for me is when doing hill reps I don't stop when I've got the number of reps but I stop when I can't sustain a given power. If I can't hit the number of reps no big deal doing them to tick the box won't do anything to my fitness, no sense beating a dead horse, if I can do more than what was planned that's a sign of progress so I can push the power up next time. But I still struggle getting my VO2Max much higher now. It hovers between 320 and 350W when I'm fit, idk what I could do to get it higher. As a result my threshold gets capped too but I find doing more allows me to repeat these efforts, but not getting it higher. Not sure there's something I should be doing differently. Most of my other efforts are easy zone 2 efforts and I can't cram more of it in my schedule
Can you talk about erg mode? Im NRS rider and use erg mode for some intervals. Say I need to hold x-wpk for x-ammount of minutes I use erg mode to keep the effort consistent instead of going up and down on the watts. Erg mode stops the effort from going to hard or to easy but just right isnt that what you need in consistent efforts? Can you please talk about the negative effects of ergo for training if there is any?
Because Im loving it right now
This is a misunderstanding. The goal isn’t to keep the outward power number consistent. It’s to push your inner physiological strain sufficient in each interval to promote adaptation - essentially you can go harder in the first interval than the last due to accumulating fatigue. If you “cap” your efforts using ERG mode to a “consistent” power number in each then your first interval you didn’t go hard as you could have done if you manage to do the same effort in the last interval. Instead, go by RPE and hit the same RPE (feeling of effort/internal strain) in the first interval as the last, regardless of exact power (within reason - stay in correct zone)
By max say 5min efforts of the frost one is 426watts then second is 404watts and 3rd is 390watts is this right?
So hard that you can’t get the same power again I mean
Depends on the goal of the session. But probs the most common way is to have fairly consistent power each rep, aiming to be totally empty after the last rep. Takes good skill and experience to pace a session like that well though
Ramp test always puts my ftp too high so I never have this problem lmao
I kinda feel what you’re saying is a bit of a null point.
Doing a Zwift session that is ‘ticking a box’ has little value if it is programmed and completed incorrectly, agreed.
These session (HIIT sessions) can be extremely valuable when done correctly.
For example,
An athlete does 1 x 4 min interval at 110% of FTP.
This single interval may be ‘hard’ but on its own may not provide enough stress to achieved the intended goal of the workout.
If the athlete is given 15 x 4 minute intervals at 110% of FTP, they most likely won’t be able to complete them.
This is where the intensity and number of intervals need to be matched to the athlete’s strengths and experience level.
Certain intensities and work/rest ratios will stimulate specific adaptations. Athletes need to ensure they include enough repeats of these intervals to cause the appropriate stress response intended from the session.
I get what you're saying, that training needs to be structured in a specific way to provide an appropriate, progressively overloaded stimulus to improve performance. I'm not saying that's not important, I'm just saying in addition to that, an athletes schedule there needs to be maximal or near maximal efforts in there to some degree. Whether thats weekly, or fornightly, or monthly, etc depending on the phase of training.
Plus maximal or near-maximal training efforts can come in many forms (racing, group rides, solo efforts).
For many reasons, both physiological and mental. A lot of riders don't do this, they often just tick every session off moderately hard, don't do low intensity training properly, and don't learn how to push themself properly hard.
@@nerocoaching definitely agree on all those points.
I’ve recently been riding with a few new riders who don’t really understand the concept of a tempo ride. Riding too hard but also not hard enough for any real adaptation.
If you haven’t already, I’m sure many people would benefit from a video outlining what a low intensity ride should look like.
Appreciate the videos!
I agree sir. But I think during Interval sessions it is just painful and if you feel like you still have something on the tank maybe you've done it wrong? Or the prescribed interval is lacking? Becuase progressive overload is the main principle sir?
I think I comment too early sir at 5:01 yes I think Sometimes I am going too hard becuase after a hard day I am really done.
Yep you dont always need to go maximal. Most of the time, progressive overload is enough. But sometimes you should be going maximal, in certain sessions.
Beyond really testing your mental toughness, this video doesn't present enough evidence that these maximal sessions are effective as training, especially when you do these sessions repeatedly (I doubt it's even possible to really hit your max effort more than twice per week). It sounds like a great way to overreach and end up in a hole.
When you do strength training, you don't go out and try to hit your 1 RM in the gym, or do reps until failure. Reps until failure is known to be sub-optimal and will just shred you and lead to a long recovery time, and I'm certain there's lessons to be learned there to endurance exercise too. Sprinters too, for example, will very rarely go 100% outside of an actual race...
There is a hidden point in your video though, and that's that people should realise that their power-duration curve is unique and that their daily form varies. VO2 max being a specific % of FTP, where that % is the same for everyone, is a huge mistake in training plans, and I'm glad that TR finally has their individualised training plans that take that into account somewhat. Same goes for Sufferfest.
This seems like a fast track to burn out. I think there's room in training for regular max efforts, but taking every effort to the limit doesn't make sense.
Not sure what you mean, the vid wasn’t suggesting to push every effort maximally.
Jesse, because cycling is predominantly a aerobic activity, do you think the cycling programs are building aerobic endurance first.. Cause it's a form of base and you can't build a house w/o a good base/foundation, that building is the maximal efforts. Also on bunch rides, if you do maximal efforts, many times after that, you can't latch back on to the group. You're done.
100% Overly planned training, never training sprints (not apart of the training program?) then you have a great FTP, great recovery, great endurance, yet a terrible sprint and harder short efforts, making you underperform in real-life crit racing.
This is exactly what I expect will happen to me during my first crit
Get some track racing intaya... 😂
2 ends of the spectrum,z1 or z5 riders
Why would you want to push yourself to your limit in races and not in training? that makes no sense!