Thanks for this video. I agree with everything except that 50W is not enough. In my experience if your speakers aren't very inefficient and your room isn't large, 50W is enough.
It depends on the listening distance. There is a video where Harbeth's lab measured peak power for normal listening of electronic music. You may be surprised. th-cam.com/video/Y3WpRY-EtX8/w-d-xo.htmlsi=26I87egRuEx9Gp4d
@@siarez You are right, for some music types,s 20W is more than enough. On the other hand, money has been invested, and the system is limited to certain music formats and near-field listening. A lot of music performance in a room depends on the amount of initiated air. This way, we have large-dimensional speaker systems along with small ones and standardize them by field. Near field up to 1m. Middle field 2-3 and far field above 3m. However, even studying studios near field monitors have 150W typical incorporated power. I have tested small 40W speakers driven by 150W amp, and they really open.
@Guntars Smits: On big shortcoming of many Class D designs is signal overshooting. Where can I find square wave measurements of the 1200AS2? I'm really interested :)
To measure the meander, you need an oscilloscope with an insulated probe ( due to bridged amplifier configuration) and provide a signal from your DAC using an internet signal generator or some reference generator. I guess those measurements are not in Audio Science Review because they are good and may impact more expensive unit sales. I am not publishing measurements due to the potential impact on other company businesses, and as a company, I have to do it with expensive devices with valid certificates from the state test and measurement lab. There are legal risks, and I will not do that.
To correctly measure the audio signal, you should filter meander to 20Khz bandwidth as it is done in the recording studio. Most of the measurements which I have seen are not done in this way. There is a filter at class d output, which on 8 ohms load can peak at 50Khz, but the normal audio signal is limited to 20Khz with a hard 60 db filter. 1200 has in loop filter and is not peaking at all. The pulse should be flat.
@@guntarssmits2104 Thank you, I understand this so far. I will not get into it before I know about the impulse response. I already have 'lively' sounding amps that are nice so far, but need to be sure to built a 'calm' one next time, to get a slightly different sounding atlernative.
Hi! Is it any possibility to damage speakers with too powerful amp? For example, KEF Q750 manufacturer amplifier requirements are 15-150W, but I want to use ICEpower 1200AS2.
No, it is tough. Anu speakers can handle short-term 8 times rated power. The dangerous part is clipping when your output, due to distortion,s has a DC component, and then a low-power amplifier burns the woofer with a DC component or tweeter with excessive harmonics at a high-frequency spectrum.
I have 325w on 150w speakers, and they opened up considerably. On 100wpc reciever power, a tweeter was blown. I have some 125w speakers that also took the 325w easily. When you hear distortion, that's not your speakers. It's the amp running out of power.
I feel like there’s too much here that isn’t properly explained to get a real grasp of what’s being said. Like specifically how is “clean power” defined and different from not “clean power”? In the ASR review of the Topping amp, the author points at a graph of the power and says this shows it has problems, but it’s not clear what on the graph shows that (Amir seems to be impressed). Like what exactly are we looking at that shows a problem? How would we know from graphs of other amps that they have the same problem or not? (What even is the problem exactly?)
Clean power is a region where your THD isn't growing by adding power. Typically 70% from 1% rated power. We can rephrase it so the amplifier should always work away from the clipping region. Modern amplifier specifications are impressive. The only parameter missing is power. And it is a very difficult and expensive parameter compared to THD and noise.
@@guntarssmits2104 I see. So the issue is that even though the amp is billed as delivering 120W into 4 ohms, it starts distorting after 70W. That's still better than the "clean power" of 35W for a 100W amp, I suppose, but it does seem misleading since it's billed as a 120W amplifier. (I will say though that I'm listening nearfield to 6 ohm, 87db sensitive speakers using a 35W tube amp, and I don't feel like there's a problem with clipping or limited dynamic range, though I seem to remember something about tube amps handling clipping more gracefully than SS which is why there's a perceived difference in "tube watts".)
@@EricRosenfield Lamps have high rail voltage (100V and more) and do not suffer from rail voltage clipping like semiconductor-based amplifiers. On the other hand, when we are talking about low frequencies it is the large motor and large mass physical model. You still need the power to produce precise bass. The difference in needed power between midrange and bass is 1000 times. Most lamps produce softened bass and do not reflect precise studio recording reproduction. But subjectively it may be pleasant to listen. And in case I like it then it is the right system for me.
Very different approach, especially customer/marketing analysis... Thanks :)
Thanks for this video. I agree with everything except that 50W is not enough. In my experience if your speakers aren't very inefficient and your room isn't large, 50W is enough.
It depends on the listening distance. There is a video where Harbeth's lab measured peak power for normal listening of electronic music. You may be surprised. th-cam.com/video/Y3WpRY-EtX8/w-d-xo.htmlsi=26I87egRuEx9Gp4d
@@guntarssmits2104 Thanks for the link. Yes, I have seen speakers gulp that much power on bass heavy tracks. The power demanded to play
@@siarez You are right, for some music types,s 20W is more than enough. On the other hand, money has been invested, and the system is limited to certain music formats and near-field listening. A lot of music performance in a room depends on the amount of initiated air. This way, we have large-dimensional speaker systems along with small ones and standardize them by field. Near field up to 1m. Middle field 2-3 and far field above 3m. However, even studying studios near field monitors have 150W typical incorporated power. I have tested small 40W speakers driven by 150W amp, and they really open.
@Guntars Smits: On big shortcoming of many Class D designs is signal overshooting. Where can I find square wave measurements of the 1200AS2? I'm really interested :)
To measure the meander, you need an oscilloscope with an insulated probe ( due to bridged amplifier configuration) and provide a signal from your DAC using an internet signal generator or some reference generator. I guess those measurements are not in Audio Science Review because they are good and may impact more expensive unit sales. I am not publishing measurements due to the potential impact on other company businesses, and as a company, I have to do it with expensive devices with valid certificates from the state test and measurement lab. There are legal risks, and I will not do that.
To correctly measure the audio signal, you should filter meander to 20Khz bandwidth as it is done in the recording studio. Most of the measurements which I have seen are not done in this way. There is a filter at class d output, which on 8 ohms load can peak at 50Khz, but the normal audio signal is limited to 20Khz with a hard 60 db filter. 1200 has in loop filter and is not peaking at all. The pulse should be flat.
@@guntarssmits2104 Thank you, I understand this so far. I will not get into it before I know about the impulse response. I already have 'lively' sounding amps that are nice so far, but need to be sure to built a 'calm' one next time, to get a slightly different sounding atlernative.
Hi! Is it any possibility to damage speakers with too powerful amp? For example, KEF Q750 manufacturer amplifier requirements are 15-150W, but I want to use ICEpower 1200AS2.
It's way simpler to destroy speakers with an underpowered amp than vice versa.
No, it is tough. Anu speakers can handle short-term 8 times rated power. The dangerous part is clipping when your output, due to distortion,s has a DC component, and then a low-power amplifier burns the woofer with a DC component or tweeter with excessive harmonics at a high-frequency spectrum.
Thanks
I have 325w on 150w speakers, and they opened up considerably. On 100wpc reciever power, a tweeter was blown. I have some 125w speakers that also took the 325w easily. When you hear distortion, that's not your speakers. It's the amp running out of power.
I feel like there’s too much here that isn’t properly explained to get a real grasp of what’s being said. Like specifically how is “clean power” defined and different from not “clean power”? In the ASR review of the Topping amp, the author points at a graph of the power and says this shows it has problems, but it’s not clear what on the graph shows that (Amir seems to be impressed). Like what exactly are we looking at that shows a problem? How would we know from graphs of other amps that they have the same problem or not? (What even is the problem exactly?)
Clean power is a region where your THD isn't growing by adding power. Typically 70% from 1% rated power. We can rephrase it so the amplifier should always work away from the clipping region. Modern amplifier specifications are impressive. The only parameter missing is power. And it is a very difficult and expensive parameter compared to THD and noise.
@@guntarssmits2104 I see. So the issue is that even though the amp is billed as delivering 120W into 4 ohms, it starts distorting after 70W. That's still better than the "clean power" of 35W for a 100W amp, I suppose, but it does seem misleading since it's billed as a 120W amplifier. (I will say though that I'm listening nearfield to 6 ohm, 87db sensitive speakers using a 35W tube amp, and I don't feel like there's a problem with clipping or limited dynamic range, though I seem to remember something about tube amps handling clipping more gracefully than SS which is why there's a perceived difference in "tube watts".)
@@EricRosenfield Lamps have high rail voltage (100V and more) and do not suffer from rail voltage clipping like semiconductor-based amplifiers. On the other hand, when we are talking about low frequencies it is the large motor and large mass physical model. You still need the power to produce precise bass. The difference in needed power between midrange and bass is 1000 times. Most lamps produce softened bass and do not reflect precise studio recording reproduction. But subjectively it may be pleasant to listen. And in case I like it then it is the right system for me.