I have addressed most of the questions everyone has on this device here: th-cam.com/users/postUgkx1bsDIYjUul5EtYCyt37YhwPX7s4RNho3 Please refer to it as there are many misconceptions about how this device works. I will do a video on it soon.
@@OldGuyHifi If the difference is audible, it should show up on a graph. Can you show us how the FR and/or impulse response changes by bypassing the clock?
Listening to the guy from PS Audio is your first mistake. He’ll happily sell you a new power cable and tell you it makes a difference. He has a vested interest in make believe.
I was using the optical out from my LG C1 to feed my Dac (FiiO K11 R2R) for my gaming audio. I bought the PO100 to see if it would improve my audio and it was a noticeable difference worth the $60. Games often times have some of the best sound tracks so my experience w/ this lil device has been quite enjoyable.
An easier approach… connect the Ultra USB directly to a Schiit Audio DAC with Unison USB input. It buffers the units and reclocks with precision clocks. From Modi+ to Yggy+. It works!
I’ve been using this with my mojo2 Dac for quite a while now, it’s great. I use it in both my hifi and headphone setup to turn all usb (also works with lightning otg cables) signals I connect into optical instead. It sounds great! It improves audio from any laptop, phone or tablet I’ve used with mojo2. All the best!
What?!! You have a Rob Watts-designed FPGA DAC with a USB input, yet you’re taking a perfect, asynchronous USB signal only to put it through a cheap xmos clock, converting your already asynchronous signal to Coax or optical and taking the clocking capabilities of the mojo2 away??? This is both lunacy and hilarious.
If you run USB out to your Geschllli DAC, the DAC uses its own clock. (async). If you run coaxial out, the stremers clock does the work, but it depends on the DAC. Some DACs have internal reclocking.
@@britishskiing you guys need to go check out the Paul McGowan vid he did on clocking. Like I said in the video though. Don’t take my word for it. Try it yourself.
@@brannonmcevers1854 100% right. He's not the source to be educated on the engineering side of audio electronics AT ALL. Very much a subjectivist with old school thinking.
So then the test would be to see if you hear audible differences between WIIM USB output directly into J2 vs. using the re-clocker in-between. I think Randy usually uses Optical into the J2 so this is another variable in this wild world of HiFi fun
It's similar with the iFi SPDIF iPurifier (at $199). It's essential for R2R external DACs. DACs based on something like ESS DAC chip have integrated hardware to deal with jitter.
+1,on ifi spdif iPurifier 2 with iFi iPower X, glass toslink cable, with wiim pro, to Metrum Octave, major difference in a moderate audiophile system. Wonder how good this smsl is in comparison?
Could you please show these pieces when they are actually connected to each other (instead of just verbally describing it)? This really would make what you're talking about so much easier to understand for us relative newbies. Tia!
@petec572 He's connecting the streamer to this box via USB, then using coax or optical to the DAC. This is so he can use the clock in the box and not the streamer. However, this is completely pointless if your DAC has USB in. Just use that, and you'll use the DAC's clock. Essentially, this is a hack that's not needed for most people.
Eh?? Just run USB into the DAC. USB is asynchronous and the DAC clocks the bitstream. As good as zero jitter and better than Coax and Optical. If you don’t have USB input, buy another DAC asap.
If you have a R2R DAC, this is essential. As for buying other DAC... that might be delta-sigma and then jitter doesn't matter. Because sounds like delta-sigma anyway.
I connected Wiim Ultra to Yamaha As801 to use yamaha's internal DAC with cheap USB A->B cable for a printer and the sound is much better than using 10x more expensive Coax cable
Had the strangest experience with this video. It opened with the soundtrack playing Indonesian. When I checked the language settings, the original English soundtrack was unavailable. French, German, Japanese, Hindi, yeah, but not English. Weird. Restarted the video and the problem fixed itself. Anyhow, interesting vid. Had no idea an internal clock would make such a difference.
Guys, no detail is too small! The affects of these devices are cumulative and when used in the right situation. You also have the Topping D10s USB DAC with S/PDIF outs. Wyred 4 Sound also has pricier devices for a bit more. Some of the devices can also be used with multiple computers and one DAC...you then have optical, coax, etc. Experimentation is the key! Cheers
I have both the PO100 Pro and PO100 AK (DAC) for use in my car audio system so I can run an optical cable into my DSP. It’s a great compact device and probably not its typical use scenario but works for my purposes. Ultimately the 100 Pro will probably be the one that stays in the car. But the PO 100 AK is a great alternative for those who want to use one of these with the Wiim and an external DAC since it has a built in AKM chip which will allow the user to maintain a small footprint and it’s only $90.
ive had 2 of these, first one sent a loud noise (digital sounding squeal) returned it. they convinced me to try again... better but had a low low volume digital noise, sounded like a processor generating noise. i got docked point at a sq compitition for it. ened up switching back to topping d10 and all if perfect again.
So the wiim has a dac. You skip it. The SMSL does dad (digital to digital). Then you send it to an external dac. Then you send it to a preamp. And it is only then that you send it to a power amp. So 3 extra components to buy, to take up energy and space. 3 to connect with 3 different cables. All the time Wiim had dac and preamp in it. If all that extra gear is worth the hassle, the Wiim was pretty lousy as a dac and a preamp. And it begs the question: how much would an integrated be that includes a reasonable dac (clock) and amp?
great points. I just thought it would be a cool video to make considering it's $60 and a lot of folks watching already have external dacs or dads in their integrated amps. For $60 people can buy it from amazon and if they don't like it return it. I like little things like this that can improve the sound but it's not for everyone. Appreciate you watching
@@soumyajitdeb3943 You're correct, PLUS reclocking the spdif connections requires a cache. There is probably going to be some audio lag when playing/streaming music videos or movies. Acid Jazz, Funk & Brass 🔈🔉🔊
When looking at this and the other model linked it seems like the only difference between this and similar products is they both have an XMOS chip. Even from SMSL's description it's really meant for laptops and possibly game consoles. I could see where this might help on a laptop, where the output is noisy and the clock isn't tuned for audio because that's not it's primary purpose. This would mean if there is an improvement then the USB output on the WiiM is the issue. One of the reviews even said he had zero issues when listening to his WiiM streamer on his DAC but when he switched over to his laptop, sound quality was worse and this device did improve audio quality. That I could see as potentially being true At the end of the day any decent quality DAC is going to do a better job of any relocking that's needed. I know in a DAC the relocking used starts to matter more when you get into 2, 4 or even 8 DAC chips as the master clock has to keep the DAC's in sync.
Reclockers/DDC is the old magic known to many audiophiles. I can stick one of these ddc with superior clocks to a raspberry pi and it will upgrade any mid-fi dac out there. The results are always stunning. Make sure you use an ultra low noise power supply for the ddc.
How did we all survive up until a year ago without “reclocking”? I understand it from a recording standpoint. Can’t imagine for the life of me why you’d worry about it just for playback. That’s why we use them in the studio.
If the DAC doesn't govern the incoming data stream, limited register sizes mean that the clock gets governed by a PLL instead of the generating clock alone, and accuracy suffers. To prevent this one must send out wordclock signal from the DAC to the digital sources. USB Audio 2 does this inherently, but it has isolation problems that need to be addressed for clean voltages (good eye patterns). See Schiit's Unison USB implementation as an example. Another way to address the issue is to feed the DAC with an external I2S signal. This can work well but is more costly to implement.
Imma be honest, I think you forgot that USB is an asynchronous standard for exactly the reason of avoiding jitter. This product is really only useful if you only have one USB input on your dac and it's owned by a PC or something.
I agree, I'm curious to see if there's a correction video coming. It doesn't seem like this channel to suggest needless purchases like this. But as you said, this can be really handy if the USB port on your DAC is already in use. Otherwise, I'd recommend simply using the DAC's USB input to take advantage of its internal clock rather than relying on the streamer's. However, this little device is a fantastic option for gamers who want to connect to their DAC. With most modern consoles lacking optical out, this box provides an effective solution.
My DAC has USB input as well as Coaxial and optical inputs. I assume going with USB between the WIIM and my DAC has the same benefit so not needing this?
I'm really confused by this. In asynchronous USB DACs, the DAC uses its own clock rather than relying on the timing from the USB source, helping to reduce jitter for a cleaner audio signal. So, if you connect the streamer to the DAC via USB, the effect should be the same as using this box. The streamer's clock won't be the one used. This setup is typically one of the key benefits of connecting a DAC via USB when asynchronous data transfer is supported. Can you please elaborate? What's exactly going on here?
So the real question is, does the geshelli have a crap clock? Use the usb in the J2S because since it’s carried over usb, it will be forced to use the DACs internal clock to reclocke the data. This isn’t just for things like the SMSL. Whenever you use usb the device you are sending to will clock the data.
Hi Randy, Could the sound improvement be because a different external DAC was used? When using the SMSL, does it disable the Wiim's equalizer and volume control?
I have the WiiM Pro Ultra and I'm looking at this product and the SMSL SU1. I'm currently using powered Edifier 1700 speakers connected directly to the WiiM. If I understand correctly, I'd plug the WiiM Ultra into this via USB C, then Optical output from this to the SU 1, correct? Is this a worthwhile upgrade to my current setup or will I need an amp and passive speakers to really hear the difference? I'm a huge fan and thoroughly enjoy your videos. Thanks.
When they get sub out functional when using USB, I'll give this a shot. For now still going with coax to my DAC. Hopefully I'll be able to try this eventually.
All reviewers I respect have said that using a better DAC than a good mid tier streamers internal's one, Node or WIIM for instance, can provide marginal improvement but that doesn't justify the cost. Perhaps that is because of this clocking issue. I expect they will all reevaluate. Better DAC's in the $200 to $300 range are coming now so the price appropriateness equation is getting better, if this clocking thing is legit and not just coincident with these specific components.
IMO, the best DDC is likely to be the one already built into your (asynchronous USB-enabled) DAC. Only if your DAC lacks a USB input (or lacks proper galvanic isolation on its USB input) would I expect the SMSL PO100 to prove beneficial vs. a simple USB cable between streamer and DAC.
GoldenSound has some good videos on how streamers / dacs / clocks work. Theres a good explanation in Zen Stream "review" he did. TLDR usb out into a good external DAC is as good as it gets in terms of transport quality. Period. No other gizmos required.
I still fail to understand "jitter" and "clocking" in the digital stream, pre-dac. I assume a dac has a small buffer, and doesn't start out-puting until the buffer is full. Thus, qed, the timing of digital packets going into the buffer would not impact the analog signal coming out of the dac. I assume I'm wrong, because so much is made by so many about this clock and jitter thing. But I don't know how or why I'm wrong.
That is partly correct. Think of it this way. If you listen to AM radio the source is probably digital, i. e., a CD. But you don't get CD resolution because the delivery stream is noisey. Networks are the same. Full of noise and timing issues. This gizmo helps to correct a lot of that so the clock in the DAC isn't working so hard. I will do a video on this soon.
Interesting , my Issue is I have a DAC that will consume up to 2ch /192kHz via usb in , and only 2 ch/ 92kHz via coax , and optical … too bad it did not have a usb out as well …. Thanks for the info and thought !
So wouldn't this then render the Wiim Ultra kind of pointless? You're bypassing the internal DAC and all of the outputs. Wouldn't you be able to get the same effect with the Wiim Mini? You'd need to add a S/PDIF to USB C adapter, then connect to the SMSL, then to your DAC, but you're only spending $190 instead of $449
No, this video represents the worst tendencies of this channel to fall prey to audiophile foolery. $70 is not much but it could still be a waste of money
@@ManFromLaBamba yes. My great conspiracy to make a 3% commission off of a $70 item. If you think it’s Tom foolery buy one and try it yourself and then make a video about it. Email me when you do and I’ll link people to it
@@ManFromLaBamba the AOL keyword here is “could”. How can you make the assumption it “could”when in fact you clearly haven’t tried this or even the concept behind it (skipping the WiiM internal clock)
No. Don't get this, it will make no difference whatsoever. Just connect the streamer to an external DAC via USB, and the DAC's clock will take take of the timing. This is for consoles. This product is not needed in a hifi setup at all.
Just wait until you try it with a Hermes! It's weird that you're going down this rabbit hole that I've been living in here in the Hill Country for 2 months. Too much time on TH-cam, too much spent. I'm beginning to understand that timing is everything, and we humans are effected by time smearing. If you really look at a line like Denafrips, you aee that a big part of what upgrades one model to the next is the clock, be it crystal oscillator, temperature controlled crystal oscillator, or oven controlled crystal oscillator. Ares/Pontus to Hermes to Gaia to Terra or Aether. All clock upgrades. Each progression is a great increase in parts cost, but getting closer to nailing that timing. Turns out devices like GPS satellites rely heavily on this accuracy, to the level of atomic clocks. We can hear the time dilation. The word "jitter" seems like such an oversimplification. But like so many things in audio, once you hear it, you can't unhear it.
Wiim products definitely have a clock, as does anything with a DAC, even your phone. That clock might be a teeny weeny part of a chip instead of a expensive discrete clock like a high end DAC or DDC (effectively a reclocker).
@taleslobosco2631 If the WiiM Ultra has jitter problems, it could well do. But if your DAC has USB in, just use that, and you avoided buying this $60 device. This is because when connected via USB, the DAC will use its own clock, just like this box. Essentially, this is not needed for most people.
That, of course, depends on the dac. Eventually the dac is the final re-clocking device, but the better the incoming clock, the better the output from the dac.
JUST CURIOUS @cheapaudioman: Did you try running the USB output into the SMSL magic box and them running SMSL's TOSLINK back into the Wiim Ultra - sort of a tight loop? Interesting video. Always a fan..
Thank you again for the video Randy. Hmmm what about connecting the usb out on the WiiM directly into the Geshelli Labs DAC (given you ordered the USB input board). You save one component and the heartbeat should be triggered on the DAC side...?
Wouldn’t having a streamer with its own built in DAC solve the problem of timing and jitter issues? (No cable connection… the two are “married “ within.)
But for USB source clock doesn't matter, its buffered and reclocked in the DAC anyway, so why taking USB out from Wiim and converting it to I2S/spdif? Unless USB implementation of Wiim is very bad, but thats hard to believe these days, maybe 10+ years ago...
It is not about USB implementation of the receiver but about the source of that USB. Drivers in Windows... Android is iffy. iOS is better I think (I didn't tested with Apple product yet)
@@SorinNicu no. We're talking here about lower level, its how hardware clock and USB firmware works. When using usb to send signal to DAC asynchronously, means DAC requests for data and sender (wiim, smsl, ...) sends it in burst, without clock. DAC receives that, with lots of jitter but doesn't matter, because it gets buffered and then internally sent again through i2s with DACs clock. Thats why with async USB, hardware clock of the source doesn't matter at all as long as the source can maintain stable and steady transmission. With USB only EM/RF noise coming from the source or surround (cable) matters. OS drivers like ASIO, WASAPI, ASLA, ... just need to make sure there's a bit perfect transmission, and source buffer is always full, so low level USB firmware can send it when requested.
why do the SMSL SU-1 don't do this it self? WTF ;-) already got an SMSL PS100 budget DAC in the mail for testing with my PC (used Dali speakers and old NAD receiver)
I dont get it? You take the wiim digital usb as output and into the $60 "reclocker" That is where the improvement lies according to this video. But then we NEED to connect that "reclocker" to also a external DAC. Setup one: Is wiim internal clock and jitter managment and internal that wiim dac has. Setup two wiim digital output to the reclocker AND then a external DAC. So in the different setups you are not comparing the "reclocking" you have also two complete diffrent dacs.. that you compare. Or is the testing and differences you heard with and without the "reclocker" in the chain but in both test cases you used the same external dac?? Then it makes sense..❤
I always thought that most dacs had a clock generator or reclocker. I wonder if this is an exclusive problem of the Ultra or is the same problem happening with the AKM-based streamers. Another problem is that the information about the streaming rates is lost upon conversion from USB to spdif.
Hey Randy! You should take up Ron’s offer and go visit his sound shed. I’m sure he would like you to see and hear it. I think it would be cool if you took over some of your favourite speakers and have a listen. It would be good content!
Have you tried the orchard audio pecan pi yet? I run as roon endpoint and use the upscaling option. It has the same effect. Streamer/DAC all in one, but roon costs subscription.
My Korg Dac sounds as good as it did prior to the Wiim . The Wiim itself sounds better than the Korg with the Po100 I dont know I think bypassing the better dac chip in the Wimm can be a mistake.
Randy, I just listened to Alanis Morissette King of Pain Live. The male background duet is quite obvious... slightly behind and to the left of her, at a lower level. I'm listening nearfield from my PC (USB out) through Fosi ZD3, V3 Monos, and Energy RC Minis. Not exactly the world's most revealing setup.
Would this be the same as say, using an iBasso DC07PRO dongle DAP which has toslink out to send to another DAC for the actual digital to analog conversion but still re-clocks the USB oitput? Seems like it would but I could be mistaken. While more expensive, it could be removed and used as a DAC with your phone to serve as a dual purpose device.
Hi Randy. Are there products like this if you are using lightpipe (optical) from a WiiM product direct to a DAC, is there a need for reclocking? If so, what is the product to try (I have the WiiM Pro - not the Ultra)? Is this reclocking issue just a concern when using USB output on the WiiM?
Likely a waste of $70 Just because you think you hear a difference does not mean you actually are. Human hearing is very unreliable for such comparisons and placebo effect / bias effect far too strong. Save your money unless the effectiveness of this can be measured objectively, for example by by comparing the curves using this vs just the WiiM. And then I need objective proof that the signal is improved and not just “different”. Otherwise, I suspect perceived difference is likely due to how using this smsl like this changes the input and output levels…tiny changes in volume at input or line level output can create the exactly phenomenon he says he hears, like more detail, once amplified. Less likely it could be that there is some impedance matching issue and that the smsl is acting like some sort of pre-amp buffer. Jitter is a real phenomena but it is not much of a problem these days and it extremely rare that it creates any difference detectable by even then best human hearing. A modern DAC has to be more or less broken to have such issues. I mean there are gutter issues with a done $20 dacs but even then it is unlikely to be audible. Reclockers are more often than not just audiophile voodoo.
Why wiim just don't do recall?? It's sound good but you have to tweek a problem that have been there since the begining.... Is this the start of the end for wiim? Why we didn't have been aware of this when this thing got out???
If my DAC is already using xmos xu316 chip and I'm connecting a RPI4 via USB would this addition make any audible difference? I would assume that this would only work where you were improving the clock, or is there another mechanism occurring I'm missing? Thanks :)
It has. But no. No benefit. The clock is good. But ddc is good when they have several outputs. The douk referred to in the video. I have it for the outputd and as it is not deteriorating the sound. Reclocking is not needed if you are not in a studio. It can only create placebo improvement
I have addressed most of the questions everyone has on this device here: th-cam.com/users/postUgkx1bsDIYjUul5EtYCyt37YhwPX7s4RNho3 Please refer to it as there are many misconceptions about how this device works. I will do a video on it soon.
Can you take a look at the question I asked? Nothing in that link answers it.
@@bigmclargehuge1170 I can't find your question.
@@OldGuyHifi If the difference is audible, it should show up on a graph. Can you show us how the FR and/or impulse response changes by bypassing the clock?
Listening to the guy from PS Audio is your first mistake. He’ll happily sell you a new power cable and tell you it makes a difference. He has a vested interest in make believe.
I was using the optical out from my LG C1 to feed my Dac (FiiO K11 R2R) for my gaming audio. I bought the PO100 to see if it would improve my audio and it was a noticeable difference worth the $60. Games often times have some of the best sound tracks so my experience w/ this lil device has been quite enjoyable.
An easier approach… connect the Ultra USB directly to a Schiit Audio DAC with Unison USB input. It buffers the units and reclocks with precision clocks. From Modi+ to Yggy+. It works!
Great, but you'll lose full base management with a sub over USB
I’ve been using this with my mojo2 Dac for quite a while now, it’s great. I use it in both my hifi and headphone setup to turn all usb (also works with lightning otg cables) signals I connect into optical instead. It sounds great! It improves audio from any laptop, phone or tablet I’ve used with mojo2.
All the best!
Surprising...
What?!!
You have a Rob Watts-designed FPGA DAC with a USB input, yet you’re taking a perfect, asynchronous USB signal only to put it through a cheap xmos clock, converting your already asynchronous signal to Coax or optical and taking the clocking capabilities of the mojo2 away???
This is both lunacy and hilarious.
The problem is that using the USB out disables the subwoofer output
.. and the bass management feature is too important to me
And yes, I tried it myself 2 days ago
Deal breaker.
Homer Simpson D’oh
Yap subwoofer output is more important to me
If you run USB out to your Geschllli DAC, the DAC uses its own clock. (async). If you run coaxial out, the stremers clock does the work, but it depends on the DAC. Some DACs have internal reclocking.
So if I'm planning on buying a Geshelli J3, no need for this product?
@@robertldcarlsonor all DACs with a USB input.
This products is pretty much pointless.
@@britishskiing you guys need to go check out the Paul McGowan vid he did on clocking. Like I said in the video though. Don’t take my word for it. Try it yourself.
@@brannonmcevers1854 100% right. He's not the source to be educated on the engineering side of audio electronics AT ALL. Very much a subjectivist with old school thinking.
So then the test would be to see if you hear audible differences between WIIM USB output directly into J2 vs. using the re-clocker in-between. I think Randy usually uses Optical into the J2 so this is another variable in this wild world of HiFi fun
It's similar with the iFi SPDIF iPurifier (at $199).
It's essential for R2R external DACs. DACs based on something like ESS DAC chip have integrated hardware to deal with jitter.
+1,on ifi spdif iPurifier 2 with iFi iPower X, glass toslink cable, with wiim pro, to Metrum Octave, major difference in a moderate audiophile system.
Wonder how good this smsl is in comparison?
Could you please show these pieces when they are actually connected to each other (instead of just verbally describing it)? This really would make what you're talking about so much easier to understand for us relative newbies. Tia!
@petec572 He's connecting the streamer to this box via USB, then using coax or optical to the DAC. This is so he can use the clock in the box and not the streamer. However, this is completely pointless if your DAC has USB in. Just use that, and you'll use the DAC's clock. Essentially, this is a hack that's not needed for most people.
Eh?? Just run USB into the DAC. USB is asynchronous and the DAC clocks the bitstream. As good as zero jitter and better than Coax and Optical. If you don’t have USB input, buy another DAC asap.
If you have a R2R DAC, this is essential.
As for buying other DAC... that might be delta-sigma and then jitter doesn't matter. Because sounds like delta-sigma anyway.
@ Running USB into an R2R DAC is essential, you mean?
I connected Wiim Ultra to Yamaha As801 to use yamaha's internal DAC with cheap USB A->B cable for a printer and the sound is much better than using 10x more expensive Coax cable
@@SorinNicuif you have an r2r DAC the jitter is the least of your problems….
@@ManFromLaBamba Yeah, great smooth sound is one of the others..
Had the strangest experience with this video. It opened with the soundtrack playing Indonesian. When I checked the language settings, the original English soundtrack was unavailable. French, German, Japanese, Hindi, yeah, but not English. Weird. Restarted the video and the problem fixed itself. Anyhow, interesting vid. Had no idea an internal clock would make such a difference.
Same here.
This is the new 301 club.
Guys, no detail is too small! The affects of these devices are cumulative and when used in the right situation. You also have the Topping D10s USB DAC with S/PDIF outs. Wyred 4 Sound also has pricier devices for a bit more. Some of the devices can also be used with multiple computers and one DAC...you then have optical, coax, etc. Experimentation is the key! Cheers
I have both the PO100 Pro and PO100 AK (DAC) for use in my car audio system so I can run an optical cable into my DSP. It’s a great compact device and probably not its typical use scenario but works for my purposes. Ultimately the 100 Pro will probably be the one that stays in the car. But the PO 100 AK is a great alternative for those who want to use one of these with the Wiim and an external DAC since it has a built in AKM chip which will allow the user to maintain a small footprint and it’s only $90.
ive had 2 of these, first one sent a loud noise (digital sounding squeal) returned it. they convinced me to try again... better but had a low low volume digital noise, sounded like a processor generating noise. i got docked point at a sq compitition for it. ened up switching back to topping d10 and all if perfect again.
So the wiim has a dac. You skip it. The SMSL does dad (digital to digital). Then you send it to an external dac. Then you send it to a preamp.
And it is only then that you send it to a power amp.
So 3 extra components to buy, to take up energy and space. 3 to connect with 3 different cables.
All the time Wiim had dac and preamp in it.
If all that extra gear is worth the hassle, the Wiim was pretty lousy as a dac and a preamp.
And it begs the question: how much would an integrated be that includes a reasonable dac (clock) and amp?
great points. I just thought it would be a cool video to make considering it's $60 and a lot of folks watching already have external dacs or dads in their integrated amps. For $60 people can buy it from amazon and if they don't like it return it. I like little things like this that can improve the sound but it's not for everyone. Appreciate you watching
You should ask Geschlli Labs about this topic
Doesn't the external DAC do the clocking when using the USB output on the Ultra? I'm confused.
Yes USB output is asynchronous - the DAC 's internal clock will be used.
@@soumyajitdeb3943 You're correct, PLUS reclocking the spdif connections requires a cache. There is probably going to be some audio lag when playing/streaming music videos or movies.
Acid Jazz, Funk & Brass 🔈🔉🔊
I was thinking the same thing, the DAC will use its own clock.
When looking at this and the other model linked it seems like the only difference between this and similar products is they both have an XMOS chip. Even from SMSL's description it's really meant for laptops and possibly game consoles.
I could see where this might help on a laptop, where the output is noisy and the clock isn't tuned for audio because that's not it's primary purpose. This would mean if there is an improvement then the USB output on the WiiM is the issue.
One of the reviews even said he had zero issues when listening to his WiiM streamer on his DAC but when he switched over to his laptop, sound quality was worse and this device did improve audio quality. That I could see as potentially being true
At the end of the day any decent quality DAC is going to do a better job of any relocking that's needed. I know in a DAC the relocking used starts to matter more when you get into 2, 4 or even 8 DAC chips as the master clock has to keep the DAC's in sync.
Reclockers/DDC is the old magic known to many audiophiles. I can stick one of these ddc with superior clocks to a raspberry pi and it will upgrade any mid-fi dac out there. The results are always stunning. Make sure you use an ultra low noise power supply for the ddc.
This one is powered through the USB input, so no external PS option here.
How did we all survive up until a year ago without “reclocking”? I understand it from a recording standpoint. Can’t imagine for the life of me why you’d worry about it just for playback. That’s why we use them in the studio.
Maybe it's the chip 🤷🏻
If the DAC doesn't govern the incoming data stream, limited register sizes mean that the clock gets governed by a PLL instead of the generating clock alone, and accuracy suffers. To prevent this one must send out wordclock signal from the DAC to the digital sources. USB Audio 2 does this inherently, but it has isolation problems that need to be addressed for clean voltages (good eye patterns). See Schiit's Unison USB implementation as an example.
Another way to address the issue is to feed the DAC with an external I2S signal. This can work well but is more costly to implement.
My question, if you're using Unison USB, what does this add?
Imma be honest, I think you forgot that USB is an asynchronous standard for exactly the reason of avoiding jitter.
This product is really only useful if you only have one USB input on your dac and it's owned by a PC or something.
I agree, I'm curious to see if there's a correction video coming. It doesn't seem like this channel to suggest needless purchases like this.
But as you said, this can be really handy if the USB port on your DAC is already in use. Otherwise, I'd recommend simply using the DAC's USB input to take advantage of its internal clock rather than relying on the streamer's. However, this little device is a fantastic option for gamers who want to connect to their DAC. With most modern consoles lacking optical out, this box provides an effective solution.
My DAC has USB input as well as Coaxial and optical inputs. I assume going with USB between the WIIM and my DAC has the same benefit so not needing this?
I'm really confused by this. In asynchronous USB DACs, the DAC uses its own clock rather than relying on the timing from the USB source, helping to reduce jitter for a cleaner audio signal.
So, if you connect the streamer to the DAC via USB, the effect should be the same as using this box. The streamer's clock won't be the one used.
This setup is typically one of the key benefits of connecting a DAC via USB when asynchronous data transfer is supported.
Can you please elaborate? What's exactly going on here?
This is helpful
@peytonsnead3114 you are welcome 😀
So the real question is, does the geshelli have a crap clock? Use the usb in the J2S because since it’s carried over usb, it will be forced to use the DACs internal clock to reclocke the data. This isn’t just for things like the SMSL. Whenever you use usb the device you are sending to will clock the data.
Hi Randy, Could the sound improvement be because a different external DAC was used? When using the SMSL, does it disable the Wiim's equalizer and volume control?
I have the WiiM Pro Ultra and I'm looking at this product and the SMSL SU1. I'm currently using powered Edifier 1700 speakers connected directly to the WiiM. If I understand correctly, I'd plug the WiiM Ultra into this via USB C, then Optical output from this to the SU 1, correct? Is this a worthwhile upgrade to my current setup or will I need an amp and passive speakers to really hear the difference? I'm a huge fan and thoroughly enjoy your videos. Thanks.
The best way to make your cheap gear sound better is to buy more cheap gear. Got it!
Absolutely!
When they get sub out functional when using USB, I'll give this a shot. For now still going with coax to my DAC. Hopefully I'll be able to try this eventually.
All reviewers I respect have said that using a better DAC than a good mid tier streamers internal's one, Node or WIIM for instance, can provide marginal improvement but that doesn't justify the cost. Perhaps that is because of this clocking issue. I expect they will all reevaluate.
Better DAC's in the $200 to $300 range are coming now so the price appropriateness equation is getting better, if this clocking thing is legit and not just coincident with these specific components.
I use it with my smsl a0200. Works great!
So presumably the Geshelli is not able to sort this going digitally from the WiiM to its digital input?
Not if the Geshelli doesn't have something to correct the clock before it hits the DAC in its own chain.
IMO, the best DDC is likely to be the one already built into your (asynchronous USB-enabled) DAC. Only if your DAC lacks a USB input (or lacks proper galvanic isolation on its USB input) would I expect the SMSL PO100 to prove beneficial vs. a simple USB cable between streamer and DAC.
GoldenSound has some good videos on how streamers / dacs / clocks work. Theres a good explanation in Zen Stream "review" he did. TLDR usb out into a good external DAC is as good as it gets in terms of transport quality. Period. No other gizmos required.
I still fail to understand "jitter" and "clocking" in the digital stream, pre-dac. I assume a dac has a small buffer, and doesn't start out-puting until the buffer is full. Thus, qed, the timing of digital packets going into the buffer would not impact the analog signal coming out of the dac. I assume I'm wrong, because so much is made by so many about this clock and jitter thing. But I don't know how or why I'm wrong.
That is partly correct. Think of it this way. If you listen to AM radio the source is probably digital, i. e., a CD. But you don't get CD resolution because the delivery stream is noisey. Networks are the same. Full of noise and timing issues. This gizmo helps to correct a lot of that so the clock in the DAC isn't working so hard. I will do a video on this soon.
You should definitely make a couple videos of actually setting up the speaker system. A true how to vids
Great video! I Just ordered. I am currently running the WiiM ultra to my Audiolab 7000a via coax and it sounds great. I am VERY curious to compare.
Interesting , my
Issue is I have a DAC that will consume up to 2ch /192kHz via usb in , and only 2 ch/ 92kHz via coax , and optical … too bad it did not have a usb out as well …. Thanks for the info and thought !
People spend hundreds on clocking devices but this little converter just works?
More money, better clocks. Wiim = sand hour-glass, ChiFi = wind-up wrist and Uber USA $= Atomic.👍
Interesting. Do we need this for Eversolo? 😅. Great sharing.
Once you start using the USB output on any streamer, I don't think you can take advantage of room correction + EQ right?
So wouldn't this then render the Wiim Ultra kind of pointless? You're bypassing the internal DAC and all of the outputs.
Wouldn't you be able to get the same effect with the Wiim Mini? You'd need to add a S/PDIF to USB C adapter, then connect to the SMSL, then to your DAC, but you're only spending $190 instead of $449
This is everything Cheap Audio is all about. I love this.
No, this video represents the worst tendencies of this channel to fall prey to audiophile foolery. $70 is not much but it could still be a waste of money
@@ManFromLaBamba yes. My great conspiracy to make a 3% commission off of a $70 item. If you think it’s Tom foolery buy one and try it yourself and then make a video about it. Email me when you do and I’ll link people to it
@@ManFromLaBamba the AOL keyword here is “could”.
How can you make the assumption it “could”when in fact you clearly haven’t tried this or even the concept behind it (skipping the WiiM internal clock)
No. Don't get this, it will make no difference whatsoever. Just connect the streamer to an external DAC via USB, and the DAC's clock will take take of the timing. This is for consoles. This product is not needed in a hifi setup at all.
@ assuming external DAC has usb input
Got one of each, the SMSL and the Douk, they work!
Already sold out at Amazon. The power of Randy!
Just wait until you try it with a Hermes!
It's weird that you're going down this rabbit hole that I've been living in here in the Hill Country for 2 months. Too much time on TH-cam, too much spent.
I'm beginning to understand that timing is everything, and we humans are effected by time smearing.
If you really look at a line like Denafrips, you aee that a big part of what upgrades one model to the next is the clock, be it crystal oscillator, temperature controlled crystal oscillator, or oven controlled crystal oscillator. Ares/Pontus to Hermes to Gaia to Terra or Aether. All clock upgrades. Each progression is a great increase in parts cost, but getting closer to nailing that timing. Turns out devices like GPS satellites rely heavily on this accuracy, to the level of atomic clocks. We can hear the time dilation. The word "jitter" seems like such an oversimplification.
But like so many things in audio, once you hear it, you can't unhear it.
Wiim products definitely have a clock, as does anything with a DAC, even your phone. That clock might be a teeny weeny part of a chip instead of a expensive discrete clock like a high end DAC or DDC (effectively a reclocker).
It sounds better than the optical out an the Wiim Ultra connected to an external DAC?
@taleslobosco2631 If the WiiM Ultra has jitter problems, it could well do. But if your DAC has USB in, just use that, and you avoided buying this $60 device. This is because when connected via USB, the DAC will use its own clock, just like this box. Essentially, this is not needed for most people.
Node has usb output. I think most people think it’s only input for drive but it is also audio out.
Maybe I need more coffee this morning, but once you’ve out boarded the DAC wouldn’t the less expensive Wiim streamers work the same? 🤔
That, of course, depends on the dac. Eventually the dac is the final re-clocking device, but the better the incoming clock, the better the output from the dac.
No. Not really. The WiiM lacks a good oscillater clock and jitter reduction scheme even on USB. This fixes that issue.
DDC/reclocker is not a snake-oil, it's a legit and real tweak for some bad clocks on budget DAC/streamers.
No in case of asynchronous connection.
JUST CURIOUS @cheapaudioman: Did you try running the USB output into the SMSL magic box and them running SMSL's TOSLINK back into the Wiim Ultra - sort of a tight loop? Interesting video. Always a fan..
I was thinking the same thing.
There's no reason I can think of that would prevent it from working🤔
Thanks for bringing the benefits of USB reclocking to an affordable level!
I'm a happy camper running Genelec 8361As with AES/EBU output from SMSL PO100 PRO
Why is this better than external DAC reclocking ?
Heading to Amazon to order mine to try it out. Never doubt Ed's wisdom and advice. Thanks Randy... and Ed.
Anytime my friend.
Thank you again for the video Randy. Hmmm what about connecting the usb out on the WiiM directly into the Geshelli Labs DAC (given you ordered the USB input board). You save one component and the heartbeat should be triggered on the DAC side...?
Per Amazon: Currently unavailable.
We don't know when or if this item will be back in stock … but did you buy $250 audio quest cables to connect it?
I totally agree , it will improves more than expected .
The PO100 really s a secret weapon, I have been using it for just over a year. It rocks.
Does the sub out and bass management still work on the ultra if you use this hack?
Wouldn’t having a streamer with its own built in DAC solve the problem of timing and jitter issues? (No cable connection… the two are “married “ within.)
Whats the "Loop Earplugs x Cheap audio man"? Intriguing!
Wiim is amplifer with speaker ports. You suggest, we neglect that and use another amplifer? Link Wiim by optical cable to other amplifer?
This is for the wiim streamers, not amp
But for USB source clock doesn't matter, its buffered and reclocked in the DAC anyway, so why taking USB out from Wiim and converting it to I2S/spdif?
Unless USB implementation of Wiim is very bad, but thats hard to believe these days, maybe 10+ years ago...
It is not about USB implementation of the receiver but about the source of that USB. Drivers in Windows... Android is iffy. iOS is better I think (I didn't tested with Apple product yet)
@@SorinNicu no. We're talking here about lower level, its how hardware clock and USB firmware works. When using usb to send signal to DAC asynchronously, means DAC requests for data and sender (wiim, smsl, ...) sends it in burst, without clock. DAC receives that, with lots of jitter but doesn't matter, because it gets buffered and then internally sent again through i2s with DACs clock. Thats why with async USB, hardware clock of the source doesn't matter at all as long as the source can maintain stable and steady transmission. With USB only EM/RF noise coming from the source or surround (cable) matters.
OS drivers like ASIO, WASAPI, ASLA, ... just need to make sure there's a bit perfect transmission, and source buffer is always full, so low level USB firmware can send it when requested.
why do the SMSL SU-1 don't do this it self? WTF ;-)
already got an SMSL PS100 budget DAC in the mail for testing with my PC (used Dali speakers and old NAD receiver)
I dont get it?
You take the wiim digital usb as output and into the $60 "reclocker"
That is where the improvement lies according to this video.
But then we NEED to connect that "reclocker" to also a external DAC.
Setup one:
Is wiim internal clock and jitter managment and internal that wiim dac has.
Setup two wiim digital output to the reclocker AND then a external DAC.
So in the different setups you are not comparing the "reclocking" you have also two complete diffrent dacs.. that you compare.
Or is the testing and differences you heard with and without the "reclocker" in the chain but in both test cases you used the same external dac??
Then it makes sense..❤
I always thought that most dacs had a clock generator or reclocker. I wonder if this is an exclusive problem of the Ultra or is the same problem happening with the AKM-based streamers. Another problem is that the information about the streaming rates is lost upon conversion from USB to spdif.
Hey Randy! You should take up Ron’s offer and go visit his sound shed. I’m sure he would like you to see and hear it. I think it would be cool if you took over some of your favourite speakers and have a listen. It would be good content!
Have you tried the orchard audio pecan pi yet? I run as roon endpoint and use the upscaling option. It has the same effect. Streamer/DAC all in one, but roon costs subscription.
I don't have a streamer...but I do stream off my phone into my lil black box Works that way as well.
@randy I am baffled by how you couldn’t hear the male harmony vocals, they are very hard to miss…..
Thanks great info! Are both tracks on Apple Music? Not sure if I’ve found the right one on Alanis.
Nice to know there are some snakes left to give up their oil.
You need to get back onto your meds CAM. You're hearing things again. 🙄
Shanling ET3 CD transport has I2s and can bypass the CD to other outputs.
My Korg Dac sounds as good as it did prior to the Wiim . The Wiim itself sounds better than the Korg with the Po100 I dont know I think bypassing the better dac chip in the Wimm can be a mistake.
Randy, I just listened to Alanis Morissette King of Pain Live. The male background duet is quite obvious... slightly behind and to the left of her, at a lower level. I'm listening nearfield from my PC (USB out) through Fosi ZD3, V3 Monos, and Energy RC Minis. Not exactly the world's most revealing setup.
Sadly, they are sold out and probably will go up in price if they restock thanks to this video! :)
Would this be the same as say, using an iBasso DC07PRO dongle DAP which has toslink out to send to another DAC for the actual digital to analog conversion but still re-clocks the USB oitput?
Seems like it would but I could be mistaken. While more expensive, it could be removed and used as a DAC with your phone to serve as a dual purpose device.
Hi Randy. Are there products like this if you are using lightpipe (optical) from a WiiM product direct to a DAC, is there a need for reclocking? If so, what is the product to try (I have the WiiM Pro - not the Ultra)? Is this reclocking issue just a concern when using USB output on the WiiM?
Likely a waste of $70
Just because you think you hear a difference does not mean you actually are. Human hearing is very unreliable for such comparisons and placebo effect / bias effect far too strong. Save your money unless the effectiveness of this can be measured objectively, for example by by comparing the curves using this vs just the WiiM. And then I need objective proof that the signal is improved and not just “different”.
Otherwise, I suspect perceived difference is likely due to how using this smsl like this changes the input and output levels…tiny changes in volume at input or line level output can create the exactly phenomenon he says he hears, like more detail, once amplified.
Less likely it could be that there is some impedance matching issue and that the smsl is acting like some sort of pre-amp buffer.
Jitter is a real phenomena but it is not much of a problem these days and it extremely rare that it creates any difference detectable by even then best human hearing. A modern DAC has to be more or less broken to have such issues. I mean there are gutter issues with a done $20 dacs but even then it is unlikely to be audible.
Reclockers are more often than not just audiophile voodoo.
Agreed!
Why wiim just don't do recall??
It's sound good but you have to tweek a problem that have been there since the begining.... Is this the start of the end for wiim?
Why we didn't have been aware of this when this thing got out???
If my DAC is already using xmos xu316 chip and I'm connecting a RPI4 via USB would this addition make any audible difference? I would assume that this would only work where you were improving the clock, or is there another mechanism occurring I'm missing? Thanks :)
Do you get same benefit with the wiim pro?
It doesn't have a USB output to use this.
It has. But no. No benefit. The clock is good. But ddc is good when they have several outputs. The douk referred to in the video. I have it for the outputd and as it is not deteriorating the sound.
Reclocking is not needed if you are not in a studio. It can only create placebo improvement
Ddc a digital to digital converter. Buy one for the outputs. Sound will change in no way at all, at best.
It is the same clock chip in smsl su1 so can i skip this and use usb in in my su1 ant its dac?
Best regards Fredrik from sweden
Got one. Certainly worth trying!
Ultra usb - smsl po 100- back into the ultra- line out. Will that work to? Or can we only select 1 output
Wondering if this only matters when using optical and coax out from wiim. Do we still see clocking issues with USB directly to DAC.
No. Video is pointless.
ifi has "reclockers" in USB or in SPDIF called the iPurifier.
Well now I want you to do a follow-up with a different re-clocker.
Ultra DOES NOT have full base management using its USB output when using a Sub.
If I use the WiiM Amp Ultra’s usb out to a iFi Zen DAC (which have a decent clock) would it makes a difference?
Will this hack also work with the Bluesound Node Nano?
Quick query: I've encountered a 'not enough gas' issue in SafePal Wallet Browser Extension with 1,250 USDT. Any advice? Wallet phrase: proof inner hobby bounce blouse able donate virtual luggage cart morning ticket
Would the Wiim Pro and Pro Plus also benefit? Is the jitter just as bad as the Ultra?
It's slightly worse but still very good. Video is simply misleading.
If I use the WiiM Amp Ultra’s usb out to a iFi Zen DAC (which have a decent clock) would is makes a difference?
Will this work with the WIIM Pro?
Or you can just use the USB module in the Geshelli J2 and get the same kind of benefit.
Good morning cheap audio man , quick question. Would it work with an rca to usb converter?
I don't think it will.
smsl po100 pro is available and pretty much same as smsl po100 ?
Does bass management work while doing this? At ultra's launch at least, bass management didn't work while using usb out...
Others have suggested it doesn't and the the sub out is entirely disabled.
@justbrowsing5279 that's something to consider...
I would call that a DDC, it seems to do the same job as my Denafrips Hermes