Father Bruner's emotion while talking about the man jumping off the bridge is one reason I consider him such a wonderful theologian. It isn't raw, sympathetic emotion. It is awe in the beauty of God's grace.
Let us note first of all that never has it been the Church's mission or competence to presume or pronounce a final judgment on a soul -- Our Lord founded His Church only in order to facilitate the salvation of souls. The 1917 Code of Canon Law (Canon 1240) forbade an ecclesiastical funeral service to "culpable suicides," by which it is understood that not all who commit such an act can be held morally responsible for it. Where it could be demonstrated that the person was not of sound mind, ecclesiastical funerals were allowed even under the older Code. (www.ewtn.com/library/liturgy/zlitur106.htm) The present Code -- admittedly a truly scandalous text in numerous parts --- no longer explicitly names suicide as an impediment to being accorded the Church's funeral rites, but it does affirm (in Canon 1184) that "manifest sinners" must be denied such rites since they would scandalize the faithful. Those who appear to have died as culpable suicides would certainly fall in this category, so the New Code has at worst accommodated and made room for changed perspectives on the propriety of funerals for persons who have committed suicide, rather than explicitly sanctioning present abuses in this matter. Finally, regarding the possibility of salvation for those who commit suicide: Salvation is certainly possible whenever any lapse of time exists between their placing the act and the moment of death. As long as the soul is united to the body, repentance is possible, and graces are being given for that precise purpose.
Nevertheless our wills are not fixed in good or evil so long as we are in this life. Holy persons may fall, and sinners can convert, even in a moment's time.
At 11:04 , I like how Father Gruner pointed out that Jesus asked Saul (who later became Paul), "Why are you persecuting me?" (ACTS 9: 3-5/ ACTS 22: 6-9/ ACTS 26: 12-15). JESUS CHRIST considers any persecutions against His Holy Roman Catholic Church, to be direct persecutions against HIM. The Catholic Church is the Body of Christ, so trying to separate Jesus Christ from His Holy Catholic Church, is impossible, and is in fact, a heresy, if that nonsense is believed and taught today, or in any other age.
POPE PIUS IX, in 1863: “There are those, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest live and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace since God who clearly beholds, searches, and knows the minds, souls, thoughts, and habits of all men, because of His great goodness and mercy, will by no means suffer (allow) anyone to be punished with eternal torment who has not the guilt of deliberate sin. God forbid that the children of the Catholic Church should even in any way be unfriendly to those who are not at all united to us by the same bonds of faith and love. On the contrary, let them be eager always to attend to their needs with all the kind services of Christians charity, whether they are poor or sick or suffering any other kind of visitation.”
Excellent video summarizing that outside of the Catholic chruch there is no salvation. @5:20 it is terrible for people to give hypthetical examples such as "Consider a Hindu in Tibet who has no knowledge of the Catholic Church..." or "a man dying alone in the middle of a remote desert", to justify Baptism of desire. How did that Hindu land there, seems like most people have no clue about generational sin. That is why is imperitive to live in areas where true religion is easily accessible and strive to stay in the state of grace, both during the Old Testament and New Testament. Example, Abrahram stayed away from large cities to protect the faith of himself and his family/possessions, whereas Lot did otherwise to the peril of his family. Columbus would not travel anywhere including the high seas without a catholic priest. Our primary duty as told by Moses and later the Apostles is to pass on the faith, when we are slothful about this responsiblity or decide to move to "greener" pastures like Lot then we must not be suprised if our future generations become pagan. These remote tribes landed there because their ansectors did not care about the accessibility, knowledge of the true religion for themselves or their descendents. Granted that God can work despite all hurdles, but He does not force us. These same people will believe that suppose a parent won a jackpot and squandered it then their descendents will not get anything of that jackpot. Adam and Eve our first parents squandered Eden and we did not get any part of it until Christ. Let's strive our best to proclaim the gospel and the necessity of water baptism and believing in the Holy Trinity as prescribed by Christ for the salvation of souls.
Yeah, I get tired of the discussion about this subject. It should be obvious that, although it is remotely possible a pagan without knowledge of Christ could obey a rightly formed conscience according to the natural law, it is a virtually non-existent possibility. The norm is that everyone needs to repent and believe in Christ. Our obligation is the proclaim the gospel, not to proclaim a remote, virtually impossible, exception to the gospel rule.
It is important to reflect back on this subject, because it is obvious today that many churchmen and some scholars - and laity following them - are oblivious to the extent of Catholicism, and how wide, deep and how grand Catholicism is. And that is not so difficult to point to people how easy it is to become a Catholic. Why? Because people already have reflections of it all around them. Many world’s belief systems have Christian truths reflected in them, same as sun above the meadow reflects its light in dew on the grass. One can prove that there would be no other religions nor beliefs in the world if there were not Christ’s original Church and that truth indeed culminates in Christ. With today’s technology and access to information, the conversion should not be difficult at all, and it just means pointing to many facts and telling the truth - nothing else. For example, 80% of Hindu beliefs are borrowed directly from Early Church and the gospel! But no one goes to tell the Hindus that the father of humankind they call Brahma in their belief system, is originally Abraham, father of humanity, father of Isaac, Ishmael, etc. So you see the problem: many of our churchmen do not know the faith, and it is easier for them to ignore the dogma out of their own ignorance than insist on telling the truth. But God wants us to embrace the Catholic Church and take ordinary means of salvation provided through the Catholic Church so we are to understand the truth of God the Son who gave us all sacraments. Through them we accept the second person of God, and we acknowledge Him. Because if we deny Him, the Son, we also deny the truth, and in the same time we deny both God the Father and God the Holy Ghost. It is all linked together. Thus the claim that "the God is one, and that it does not matter which religion one belongs to”, is false in the first premise. For although God is one, God is also three persons in one. And that is a big difference. The truth cannot deny itself. God gave us means to understand Him properly, and it is possible only through the God the Son, who came to show us the way. Only through God the Son we can approach God the Father, and God the Holy Ghost. And that is the mission of the Church: to testify the truth about the Holy Trinity only possible through God the Son. When Jesus says he is coming to be the *Witness* of the Truth, that is what He tells us: The Son is necessary that God the Holy Trinity witnesses His own ontological truth. And that is the Truth of the first ontological and philosophical order: nothing is higher that that Truth. You can correlate this with science too, a principle which says that there is no reality unless that reality is *witnessed*, or perceived. Now correlate that with words of Our Lord. All this means that only the Church which fully accepts the Holy Trinity is the true Church. Even scientific grounds confirm for her belief, because it is true.
Mr. MacDonald, a pagan without knowledge of Christ could not be saved as such, even if he is guiltless in regard to the natural law. "Without faith it is impossible to please God" (Heb 11:6). The Church's teaching is that God will undoubtedly make the essential Christian revelation known to everyone (no matter how physically remote from human society or a preacher of the Gospel) who corresponds to the graces which he receives.
Pope Innocent 3 1215 Pope Boniface 8 Pope Eugene 4 1441 Define: Dogma : Outside the Church, there's no Salvation. Invincible ignorance neither saves nor condemns. Deprived of extraordinary grace, man has no means to be saved even how extraordinary his intentions.
@WhiteChocolate Bear Please see our reply to your previous submission of this question here: th-cam.com/video/u71UaWqqoZ4/w-d-xo.html&lc=Ugx8t80xwMHaWkll2Fp4AaABAg
Thank you for this important question. By analogy, theologians speak of the purifying effect which faith, enlivened by charity, has upon the soul as the "Baptism of Desire" since it produces some of the same effects as a true sacramental Baptism by water. (See for instance St. Thomas, Summa Theologica, II-II, Q. 7, A. 2 www.newadvent.org/summa/3007.htm#article2) That Justification can thus take place before the administration of the Sacrament is indeed an explicit part of biblical revelation: "While Peter was yet speaking these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them that heard the word. ... Then Peter answered: Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Ghost, as well as we? ...[For] God, Who knoweth the hearts... [has given] unto them the Holy Ghost, ...purifying their hearts by faith." (Acts 10: 44, 47; 15: 8, 9) God bless you.
I can only assume that your omniscient and omnipotent god is not bound by your limited human interpretations of his intents. Therefore all this is meaningless.
Father Bruner's emotion while talking about the man jumping off the bridge is one reason I consider him such a wonderful theologian. It isn't raw, sympathetic emotion. It is awe in the beauty of God's grace.
Let us note first of all that never has it been the Church's mission or competence to presume or pronounce a final judgment on a soul -- Our Lord founded His Church only in order to facilitate the salvation of souls.
The 1917 Code of Canon Law (Canon 1240) forbade an ecclesiastical funeral service to "culpable suicides," by which it is understood that not all who commit such an act can be held morally responsible for it. Where it could be demonstrated that the person was not of sound mind, ecclesiastical funerals were allowed even under the older Code. (www.ewtn.com/library/liturgy/zlitur106.htm)
The present Code -- admittedly a truly scandalous text in numerous parts --- no longer explicitly names suicide as an impediment to being accorded the Church's funeral rites, but it does affirm (in Canon 1184) that "manifest sinners" must be denied such rites since they would scandalize the faithful. Those who appear to have died as culpable suicides would certainly fall in this category, so the New Code has at worst accommodated and made room for changed perspectives on the propriety of funerals for persons who have committed suicide, rather than explicitly sanctioning present abuses in this matter.
Finally, regarding the possibility of salvation for those who commit suicide: Salvation is certainly possible whenever any lapse of time exists between their placing the act and the moment of death. As long as the soul is united to the body, repentance is possible, and graces are being given for that precise purpose.
Nevertheless our wills are not fixed in good or evil so long as we are in this life. Holy persons may fall, and sinners can convert, even in a moment's time.
At 11:04 , I like how Father Gruner pointed out that Jesus asked Saul (who later became Paul), "Why are you persecuting me?" (ACTS 9: 3-5/ ACTS 22: 6-9/ ACTS 26: 12-15).
JESUS CHRIST considers any persecutions against His Holy Roman Catholic Church, to be direct persecutions against HIM. The Catholic Church is the Body of Christ, so trying to separate Jesus Christ from His Holy Catholic Church, is impossible, and is in fact, a heresy, if that nonsense is believed and taught today, or in any other age.
POPE PIUS IX, in 1863: “There are those, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest live and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace since God who clearly beholds, searches, and knows the minds, souls, thoughts, and habits of all men, because of His great goodness and mercy, will by no means suffer (allow) anyone to be punished with eternal torment who has not the guilt of deliberate sin.
God forbid that the children of the Catholic Church should even in any way be unfriendly to those who are not at all united to us by the same bonds of faith and love. On the contrary, let them be eager always to attend to their needs with all the kind services of Christians charity, whether they are poor or sick or suffering any other kind of visitation.”
Excellent video summarizing that outside of the Catholic chruch there is no salvation.
@5:20 it is terrible for people to give hypthetical examples such as "Consider a Hindu in Tibet who has no knowledge of the Catholic Church..." or "a man dying alone in the middle of a remote desert", to justify Baptism of desire. How did that Hindu land there, seems like most people have no clue about generational sin. That is why is imperitive to live in areas where true religion is easily accessible and strive to stay in the state of grace, both during the Old Testament and New Testament. Example, Abrahram stayed away from large cities to protect the faith of himself and his family/possessions, whereas Lot did otherwise to the peril of his family. Columbus would not travel anywhere including the high seas without a catholic priest. Our primary duty as told by Moses and later the Apostles is to pass on the faith, when we are slothful about this responsiblity or decide to move to "greener" pastures like Lot then we must not be suprised if our future generations become pagan.
These remote tribes landed there because their ansectors did not care about the accessibility, knowledge of the true religion for themselves or their descendents. Granted that God can work despite all hurdles, but He does not force us.
These same people will believe that suppose a parent won a jackpot and squandered it then their descendents will not get anything of that jackpot. Adam and Eve our first parents squandered Eden and we did not get any part of it until Christ.
Let's strive our best to proclaim the gospel and the necessity of water baptism and believing in the Holy Trinity as prescribed by Christ for the salvation of souls.
Yeah, I get tired of the discussion about this subject. It should be obvious that, although it is remotely possible a pagan without knowledge of Christ could obey a rightly formed conscience according to the natural law, it is a virtually non-existent possibility. The norm is that everyone needs to repent and believe in Christ. Our obligation is the proclaim the gospel, not to proclaim a remote, virtually impossible, exception to the gospel rule.
It is important to reflect back on this subject, because it is obvious today that many churchmen and some scholars - and laity following them - are oblivious to the extent of Catholicism, and how wide, deep and how grand Catholicism is.
And that is not so difficult to point to people how easy it is to become a Catholic. Why? Because people already have reflections of it all around them. Many world’s belief systems have Christian truths reflected in them, same as sun above the meadow reflects its light in dew on the grass.
One can prove that there would be no other religions nor beliefs in the world if there were not Christ’s original Church and that truth indeed culminates in Christ. With today’s technology and access to information, the conversion should not be difficult at all, and it just means pointing to many facts and telling the truth - nothing else.
For example, 80% of Hindu beliefs are borrowed directly from Early Church and the gospel! But no one goes to tell the Hindus that the father of humankind they call Brahma in their belief system, is originally Abraham, father of humanity, father of Isaac, Ishmael, etc. So you see the problem: many of our churchmen do not know the faith, and it is easier for them to ignore the dogma out of their own ignorance than insist on telling the truth.
But God wants us to embrace the Catholic Church and take ordinary means of salvation provided through the Catholic Church so we are to understand the truth of God the Son who gave us all sacraments. Through them we accept the second person of God, and we acknowledge Him. Because if we deny Him, the Son, we also deny the truth, and in the same time we deny both God the Father and God the Holy Ghost. It is all linked together.
Thus the claim that "the God is one, and that it does not matter which religion one belongs to”, is false in the first premise. For although God is one, God is also three persons in one. And that is a big difference.
The truth cannot deny itself. God gave us means to understand Him properly, and it is possible only through the God the Son, who came to show us the way. Only through God the Son we can approach God the Father, and God the Holy Ghost. And that is the mission of the Church: to testify the truth about the Holy Trinity only possible through God the Son.
When Jesus says he is coming to be the *Witness* of the Truth, that is what He tells us: The Son is necessary that God the Holy Trinity witnesses His own ontological truth. And that is the Truth of the first ontological and philosophical order: nothing is higher that that Truth. You can correlate this with science too, a principle which says that there is no reality unless that reality is *witnessed*, or perceived. Now correlate that with words of Our Lord.
All this means that only the Church which fully accepts the Holy Trinity is the true Church. Even scientific grounds confirm for her belief, because it is true.
Mr. MacDonald, a pagan without knowledge of Christ could not be saved as such, even if he is guiltless in regard to the natural law. "Without faith it is impossible to please God" (Heb 11:6). The Church's teaching is that God will undoubtedly make the essential Christian revelation known to everyone (no matter how physically remote from human society or a preacher of the Gospel) who corresponds to the graces which he receives.
Pope Innocent 3 1215
Pope Boniface 8
Pope Eugene 4 1441
Define:
Dogma : Outside the Church, there's no Salvation.
Invincible ignorance neither saves nor condemns.
Deprived of extraordinary grace, man has no means to be saved even how extraordinary his intentions.
@WhiteChocolate Bear Please see our reply to your previous submission of this question here: th-cam.com/video/u71UaWqqoZ4/w-d-xo.html&lc=Ugx8t80xwMHaWkll2Fp4AaABAg
4:20 Isn't this unbiblical?
Thank you for this important question. By analogy, theologians speak of the purifying effect which faith, enlivened by charity, has upon the soul as the "Baptism of Desire" since it produces some of the same effects as a true sacramental Baptism by water. (See for instance St. Thomas, Summa Theologica, II-II, Q. 7, A. 2 www.newadvent.org/summa/3007.htm#article2)
That Justification can thus take place before the administration of the Sacrament is indeed an explicit part of biblical revelation: "While Peter was yet speaking these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them that heard the word. ... Then Peter answered: Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Ghost, as well as we? ...[For] God, Who knoweth the hearts... [has given] unto them the Holy Ghost, ...purifying their hearts by faith." (Acts 10: 44, 47; 15: 8, 9) God bless you.
I can only assume that your omniscient and omnipotent god is not bound by your limited human interpretations of his intents. Therefore all this is meaningless.
God has revealed himself and founded a church that can interpret his Revelation authoratively. That's fact regardless of what you believe