Crimping vs Soldering for Anderson Plugs
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ก.ค. 2023
- In this episode of Lock your Hubs 4WDing, we're going to answer the question once and for all time, should you crimp or solder Anderson Plug Connections.
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Great demonstration, as an ex-avionics engineer, i always solder, but tin the wire before inserting into the Anderson plug to ensure a complete bond.
I use this method to try and stop the solder working its way up the wire under the insulation. The couple that I've cut apart seem to have full solder penetration.
Though not sure if you would get full penetration on a much larger wire like a 50mm² cable.
Interest in vibration and corrosion resistance? Shit yeah!!
That was a beautifully explained and demonstrated use of the 4 wire method for low resistance measurements. Kudos++!
The results blew me away too.
Thanks! I was astounded with the results as well, after years, in fact decades of being told how crimping was the superior method. Just to find out as far as conductivity is concerned, it's the complete opposite....
Nothing beats a good graph. I understood that perfectly. Now I know why I solder instead of crimping. Soldering is cheaper and I don't have a crimping tool. Thanks for educating me once again Simon will see you in the next video.
I couldn't believe the result. And you know the graphs are just for you right? :)
Solder wins in terms of resistivity, however, crimps are usually recommended for high vibration environments. Solder can crack and split from heavy vibrations. That’s why automotive applications use pretty much exclusively crimps for all the connectors
I keep hearing that, though are yet to see any conclusive data, one way or the other.
@@LockyourHubs4WDing haha that’s a good point! It’s something that’s quite important to automotive manufacturers so I’d be surprised if this hasn’t been investigated and the fact that commercial cars more or less exclusively use crimps may suggest their superior. But there could be many other factors and that reasoning is certainly not conclusive
Although the energy loss of 9W when you're pushing 1200W through it is insignificant in terms of efficiency, and even more so when you consider that the best electrical connection (soldered) loses 3W so you're only losing 6W.
However efficiency isn't the only consideration... the extra 6W dumped into the connection, doubled to 12W in the usual positive/negative Anderson plug, might, in a sufficiently insulated and/or warm environment, cause enough of a rise in temperature to damage the plastic connector. Depending on where it is and the presence of forces from weight on the connection, it might even be possible for the plastic to become fully molten, which could result in the two contacts touching each other. Without short circuit protection, there will be fire.
There's a big issue with soldered joints in situations where cables have movement, it creates a hard point that is susceptible to work hardening that leads to breakage, soldered joints are not permitted in marine applications for this reason, and the same problem applies to automotive, so whilst soldered joints may have a lower resistance, that's only until it breaks, at the most inconvenient time... the next test you should do is a flex test, bend the cable repeatedly at the joint..
Yep, I agree, I would take a more reliable joint over a slightly more conducive joint any day of the week.
@@LockyourHubs4WDing "Soldered joints are not permitted in marine applications". Just an utterly ludicrous nonsense statement. The marine standards say you don't JUST use solder, as movement of an unsupported solder joint can cause the actual solder to crack / lift, giving what they call a "dry joint". But it absolutely IS permitted to solder AND crimp, or use solder wherever there is some other decent mechanical support also. And this idea that soldered joints are prone to the actual wires fatiguing is pretty much complete nonsense. If you have excessive wire movement at a joint, of course you can have the wires suffering metal fatigue at the point where the wire is clamped. But that applies equally to a crimped or mechanical joint as it does to a soldered/welded joint. Crimping has no advantage there. So, soldering gives a better connection, because it maximises the surface area of contact between the two surfaces, and because it fills all gaps and provides the greatest cross-section for current flow over the very short distance into the copper wires. Those two factors more than compensate for the fact that it is not as conductive as copper. So, pls ignore the just-crimp idiots, and thanks for a well-done experiment which confirms soldering gives a superior connection, because it does. And ignore idiots who look for excuses to crimp, because they're lazy & stupid. Crimping is great to give you a good solid mechanical connection that then allows you to easily come along and add solder. And then you have a great joint with crimping to provide mechanica support and solder to maximise conductivity. So, if you want a good connection, just learn how to solder. It's not that hard to get started, and you'd have to do a terrible job of it, for it not to be an improvement over a crimped-only connection.
@@An_Idiot_in_the_Wild As one of those "lazy idoits" who crimps mobile connections, I can affirm that in the US the stardards set by the ABYC call for crimping electrical connections vs soldering them due to the exposure of movement and vibration found in the marine environment. Soldering a wire or connection turns that stranded wire into essentially a solid core conductor, which will fail under vibration. The ABYC training included lab experiments where a crimped wire connection and a soldered wire connection were mounted and exposed to the same vibration standard, the soldered wire connection failed each time at the end of the solder in the wire.
I would be interested in checking that out, do you have a link?
Love how in depth you go in your videos. I would like to see a corrosion resistance and vibration test for sure.
Looks like I'll have to schedule it!
Thank you!
We have been using Anderson connectors on our public safety (mostly fire department paging and dispatching) repeaters.
I USED to solder, then saw videos on TH-cam showing terminals that were cut in half to show the cross-section.
I was convinced that it was a “hermetically sealed / metal fusion” type connection.
Nope. After your video presentation and work involved, we are back to filling with flux / crimping “just enough” to keep the wire from pulling out / soldering the rest of the way.
Thank You Sir!
I think a combination of the durability of a crimp and the superior conductivity of the soldering is the best compromise.
This "soldering" technique is easily the worst I have seen in all my years. DO NOT terminate large conductors this way
@@Redemptioner1 let me guess, sparky?
I'm surprised. I understood the crimping process was intended to compress the strands in to a solid copper core giving better conductivity
Also, I understand the solder, as it travels along the cable a small way can give greater chance of a fatigue break occurring where the cable would otherwise flex
I have used both but there are confined spaces where I can't use a blow torch and soldering iron just doesn't put out enough heat so I settle with the crimping (same as for terminal lugs)
I guess horses for courses.
just about every electrical job i do i wonder whether i could have done my connections better.
Me too, that's why I thought about doing this test, and quite frankly, I didn't see the results at the outset.
I use the dent crimpers often found on stamped plate wire strippers on the handles just before the jaws. Light force results in a dent about 2mm diameter, 1mm deep. I do one about 3mm from the bottom of the wire receptacle (where it becomes a cylindrical shape, just above the dome) and another about 4mm higher, on the opposite side. I strip the wire to expose 2-3mm more than the depth of the receptacle.
I then fill it to the level of the upper edge of the second dent with molten solder (usually that's about 3/4 full), heat the contact and bottom of the receptacle for 10 seconds using a butane torch, and jam the wire in hard so the strands have to bend to allow the entire stripped length to go in.
The dents aren't deep enough to obstruct the wire, but once the solder solidifies it is virtually impossible to remove the wire even if the solder completely breaks free and separates from the inside surface of the connector, because the shape of the solder plug makes any movement impossible, and the bent wire strands also greatly reduce the likelihood of slippage (which is already extremely unlikely but I figure it can't hurt to make it even less likely).
We have been soldering them for decades and have never had one fail. I think a pair of helping hands would be an improvement over the vice grips though. I put the solder in first before heating, just fold it up and cram it in then heat it until it melts. Then push the cable in and hold for a few seconds. I would have expected crimping to produce the worst results followed by crimped and soldered and then soldered giving the best result. Interesting to find that I was right cosidering it was just intuition but I never expected crimped to be so much worse. Really interesting to see how it was all tested.
Thanks, I'm constantly amazed by the testing. (I'm still kicking myself over the preheating/chilling of thermosflasks, I was doing that for decades....)
Resistivity has never been my main concern when crimping/connecting. Safety from a potential joint failure has always been priority, I would be quite interested in seeing a test for fatigue and corrosion. I have always used crimping only but am considering crimp then solder for the added corrosion protection on my current build. Thanks for the content 👍🏼
I think a vibration test is on the cards.
Looking forward to seeing your testing method. I'm guessing your a sparky/instro?
@@louisegan99 I'm just a bloke with a 4WD..... :)
And some interesting content. Keep it coming 👍🏼
Did you notice how he soldered the connector to the wire - I imagine very little solder wicked up the wire beyond the connector body. As far as I know, that wicked solder beyond the connector is the cause of failures from fatigue, and if there is no wicked solder beyond the connector then the fatigue failures will be much, much less.
It'd be nice if LyH4WD cut the cable a few millimetres past the solder connector to see how much solder has wicked up there.
Great scientific demonstration video. Thank you.
No worries, glad you liked it! The results certainly surprised me.
Great video. Thanks for your efforts and scientific approach.
Yes I'd be very interested in a video covering vibration and corrosion resistance. 👍
You got it!
Highly flawed methods and data. That's what I saw.
Top explanation Simon and Matt!
You're welcome! Glad you liked it.
As a novice, your video was quite comprehensive. Did I understand it all? No, but I viewed it till the end.
Would definitely like to see the results of the corrosive tests.
Cheers.
Thanks, I know I can be a little nerdy at times 😂. I think the rest of the testing is on the cards further down the track.
Great video, I actually learned more than I expected to. Thanks!
You're welcome! The results certainly surprised me.
@@LockyourHubs4WDing Me too!
I always solder so I can always reuse the same Anderson connector!
That's another great reason to solder!
This is great stuff. Thanks
Glad you enjoyed it!
I love your scientific approach. Another great video. I’ve only been crimping my Anderson plugs for years simply because it’s quick and easy and good enough. It would be good to see how the different methods hold up over time.
Tensile strength, corrosion resistance and vibration resistance are all really important considerations for an Anderson plug that's going to see service in a 4WD, that's where I think the crimp might reign supreme.
@@LockyourHubs4WDing With regard to corrosion we have found that soldering is far superior when it involves areas subject to moisture. It's not a bad idea to put some shrink wrap around the join between the plug and the plastic of the cable too :)
@@WesternAustraliaNowAndThen I really like the double walled glued heat shrink.
@@WesternAustraliaNowAndThenI have come across a few badly corroded soldered joins more recently, I used to solder or solder & crimp, but nowdays I lean toward just using a decent hand crimper for Ando’s
I feel like you have not guaranteed good penetration up the wire in either solder case, thus disadvantaging the solder joints.
By the cold insertion? That's to prevent the solder wicking up the conductor, I've cut a couple apart and seem to have complete penetration and no signs of a cold solder.
If we looked at the surface contact area under a microscope, between solder and crimping, then I can understand how solder wins. It would be interesting to see the thermal differences between a soldered and crimped Anderson connection under a high current load. Pushed to the limit, I would expect the solder to melt on an Anderson connection and fail, before a crimped connection failure. I guess the crimped connection would hold on and the electrical insulation around the wire would go up in smoke. Thanks for another very interesting video.
You might have noticed the type K thermocouple probes under the heat shrink on a couple of testing samples.......
@@LockyourHubs4WDing I actually did (note the thermocouple) but I missed their use in the video. I'd also be interested in what happens if really the full designated amperage would be blown through the solder. Would it get warmer than the wire? Would it get warm enough to weaken the soldering over time?
@@afoeder as the resistance is less for a soldered joint than a crimped one, the heat generated will be less. Leaded solder typically has a melting temperature of 183C, though that depends on the specific alloy.
@@LockyourHubs4WDingyeah thank you, I've already had something like that in mind while typing my comment :) Also usually pulses / alternating currents are especially tough on solderings so that cold soldering joints more likely occur. Thanks for your thorough video!
Has this video changed your mind about Crimping vs Soldering? What process will you use now? and why?
I was about to compliment you on your spelling. Then it happened,,,,,
I read your comment.
Man you are incredibly knowledgeable about such a broad range of mechanical and electrical equipment and mathematics. I’m am in awe. I was so lost there, but am now on my way to Jaycar to buy some Anderson plugs and solder and a new crimping tool.
@@lastknownlocation8760 haha, thanks mate, I think when you look up "jack of all trades, master of none" there's probably a link to this channel! :) I just really enjoy hyper focussing on a particular topic for a short period of time.
Well i’m shocked with your test results, when I was trained as a motorcycle engineer, one of the trainers that taught us about electronics was electronic physicist if that’s the correct term.
He explained that high risk of dry connections, and corrosion caused by soldering that the motorcycle and aircraft industries did not use solder for any joints because of reliability and the possibility of a higher or different resistance in his design in the wiring loom.
Have posted below asking if you’re solder was old stock? Because of most modern soldiers are not made up from 10 and lead any more, but specialised epoxy, resents designed to do the joining..
When tin was very important, and a very good reliable connection
@@overland_adventure_nz just standard 60/40 resin cored solder from Jaycar purchased late last year from memory. It's not the lead free stuff with the silver.
Great stuff Simon looks like I’m breaking out the soldering iron
Haha! The jury is still out on vibration, corrosion and tensile strength though....
Interesting results. I am interested in the vibration testing. Thanks
Coming soon!
Very interesting test and very educational, thanks.
Now I have no idea if I'm right or wrong but I have to admit I was shocked at your method of soldering. A flame like that is far too hard to control for my liking ... I would only ever attempt something as critical as this with a decent iron. The purpose of rosin cored solder is to have the rosin do its job as it is heated up ... and that job is to clean the surfaces of the terminal and the wire ... so the solder can adhere/bond properly and cleanly.
By melting the solder in the terminal and then pushing in the wire, the majority of the flux is already deactivated and while it would have cleaned the inside of the terminal nicely ... it would have had no effect on the wire. I am inclined to place the wire in the terminal and while heating the outside of the terminal, feed in the solder just as you did the crimped and soldered one, until it has flowed nicely and filled up.
I saw some comments about soldering and corrosion and the distinction needs to be made between rosin cored and acid cored solder ... the latter causing residual effects unless cleaned carefully. Rosin from the rosin cored solder actually deactivates after being heated and so should not cause residual effects long term ... and many of them are sold as "no clean", not requiring any special treatment after use.
My thoughts come after 50 years as an electronics tech. :)
Having tried both ways I find it a lot harder to prevent the solder from wicking up the wire under the insulation if inserting the wire first. I understand the function of the flux cored solder though having cut a couple apart after using the method in the video, I seem to get 100% penetration and no wetting issues reliably.
Correctly soldered would have the solder wick up the fine strands in the cable, making it rigid where it is designed to be flexible.... needs to be flexible, instead of creating a location that is subject to stress fracturing.
That 'solder pot' method he used is asking for dry joints. Chances are there was so much slop in the cable / lug barrel joint that the hit and miss method only had the outer strands soldered in, with core of the cable dry.
Then there is the thermal mass of the cable sucking out all the heat of the minimal solder in the lug... more dry joints.
My thoughts come after 45 years as a Licensed electrical fitter/mechanic working in the Power Industry.
Well the military solders everything in their standards for land rovers, aslavs etc when I was at BAE systems for work experience.
They had testing set up for quality that was insane. It was all minimum required though so wire could flex.
That's really interesting as most organisations require crimping for adverse conditions wiring. And a war zone has surely got to qualify as an adverse condition!
@@LockyourHubs4WDing in marine, crimp + solder, or just solder. If only crimping be sure to use hearshrink woih glue to waterproof the joint
I can't recreate the experiments result. I measured 0,6mV drop across an Anderson crimp joint for 10A. So you can even get lower than soldering with a good crimping plier. So I definitely stay with soldering. If you have a perfect cold weld between silver and copper thats much better than with a soldered layer in between. And you get better mechanical durability on top for free.
Were you using the 4 wire method?
Crimp definately. If soldered, heavy duty heatshrink needs to be used to stop ANY movement at the terminal. Do NOT solder then crimp.
I tend to agree, without actually testing it. Though prior to testing it, everyone told me crimping was electrically superior. What I can't find is any hard evidence that crimping is mechanically superior.
The reason why your crimped joint is a higher resistance than the soldered joint is because it's likely an incomplete crimp. With all the variances in dies, cable diameters, lug diameters, and lug wall thickness it is REALLY difficult to get a perfect crimp. This is why I've moved to using die-less crimper (both the hammer type and hydraulic) because it seems to get a good crimp (when used correctly) despite all the variables. With that said, I tend to solder my Anderson-style connectors purchased from Amazon because you usually can't easily get a 175A plug that you can easily crimp a small wire into if you wanted to.
That was an average of 3 samples, so unless they were all less than perfect, crimping isn't as conductive as soldering.
I'd love to see more!
Also I'd like to see the difference in resistance over a length (say 5m or 10m) with different amounts of anderson connections, to see how much resistance we add with each connection
I know myself, I have multiple anderson connections on my battery box, then I plug a lead in that runs to my step up and that has 2x anderson plugs and then another to my travel oven..
Is the resistance enough with that many anderson connections that I should consider wiring it all together without andersons....
Does each conection stack more resistance..?
Love your content mate!
There will be a certain amount of contact resistance with each Anderson connector, in addition to the crimp/solder of the terminations.
You could use exactly the same process (4 wire resistance measurement) to measure it. As each connection is in series, it would all accumulate.
Sounds like an interesting idea for a video!
Great work Simon. Can you please add links to the tools required for crimping and soldering? Every video you do is a great learning experience and also entertainment.
I Probably should start putting affiliate links in the description! :)
@@LockyourHubs4WDingA little passive income may help you fund these great videos.
Yes! I want the next video! Do soldered connects really break first? I'm not ready to buy the conventional wisdom without evidence!
And that's what I haven't seen, any hard evidence!
Great test, love the graphed data.
Certainly interested to see some long term tests on vibration and corrosion resistance. You've proved half the scenario of old-skool soldering is better... now end the lazy crimp method junkies for good. 😀😀
I laughed at "crimp junkies"! The testing is still in the planning stages, though it is going to happen!
Soldering is reversible if you decide you need to change something.
That's definitely an advantage.
How I solder. set torch upright on bench top and use the hold flame on button keep a small flame going adjusted to about 30mm long. hold bell end of terminal with long nose pliers and heat the fully exposed contact end. feed in the required amount of solder to melt the solder and a layer of brown flux will float to the top of the molten solder. this flux is essential to help tin the the wire that is going to be inserted into the terminal. if the flux catches alight you are way to hot. for thick cables keep the end of the terminal in the flame and inset the wire into the molten pool of solder and hold it there for a few seconds as thick cables they will need time for enough heat to soak into the cable positively solder the wire. take join out of flame and hold together until it solidifies. If the connection is heated for to long the solder will wick up the wire strands and make a stiff section of soldered wire extending beyond the terminal entrance which is undesirable. carefully inspect the result of your procedure and learn from it..
Sounds like a great method, sitting the torch stationary is probably safer as well.
I have always soldered
Turns out that's the best connection when it comes to just looking at conductivity. I didn't see that result at the outset
Good to see the 4-wire test being used. I use a little constant current DC supply that uses a DC source voltage, set it for 1.00 amp with the multimeter set for millivolts, and with V=IR, now V=1R or V=R, anything the meter reads in millivolts across the same length of circuit is the resistance in milliohms.
Is 934 microohms 0.000934 ohms?
Hmmmmmm...... I might have to double check the math.
@@LockyourHubs4WDing Don't know what I'm thinking. I'll start again...sometimes I can't see the wood for the trees(!). If you're calcs are good, I'll take your word for it.
So I have one question was your solder old stock?
Why do I ask this? Well all solder once had tin and lead in it, but this is no longer the case and most solder is made up of specialised epoxies!
In the aircraft and motorcycle industries, solder is not used because of the high risk of the dry joint!
I also believe that some terminals that are used in aircraft and motorcycles when crimped don’t just press on the outside, but fold over and turn into the wire causing a better connection.
I personally after 30+ years have always removed solid joints out of motorcycles and replace them with a good clean crimp joint because all the solar joints that I’ve come across have been corroded from the fluxes used and the environment .
But it’s the first good test that I’ve seen .
Maybe you could do a retest on different sorts of soldiers for resistance, and they connections .
Keep up the great work .
As per above, it was just standard 60/40 from Jaycar. Though you make an interesting point about the modern "lead free solders" that might be on the cards for a later test.
@@LockyourHubs4WDing thanks for your reply, I asked one of my local (the most experienced and longest running) auto electrician about tinning a copper bar that I have made up to extend the earth terminal through the smart controller before connecting my winch cable and the earths back to the copper bar (so the smart controller will realise the voltage drawer from my winch when winching) he pointed out that there was not enough tin in the soldier, any longer to have a good electrical connection!
So if would like it tinned to stop the copper bar corroding, I will need to send it off for tin electroplating.
I once specialised in rewiring motorcycle CD ignition units externally, but I cannot remember how I did this now because I’ve got a severe brain injury.
Lucky just to be alive .
@@overland_adventure_nz I'm a firm believer in that every vertical day it a good one!
I always crimp because i can never seem to find my soldering torch when im in a rusg to get a new setup done before a trip 😂 if i feel special ill solder over the crimp. Never used a proper tool either, just the old school flat stripper pliers with the multiple crimp dies, never had a failure and never had a hot connection or voltage issues.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think crimping is rubbish. It seems to be a somewhat contentious subject when you're discussing car electricals for some reason.
And I wanted to know what was the most electrically efficient connection with the highest conductivity, turns out that's soldering.
Hex crimps are touchy regarding the cable size / terminal body combination. The crimp jaws can bottom out giving the impression of good tight joint when it is not. non hydraulic lever type indent crimpers are probably more fool proof. I have had many good looking hex crimps where the cable can be pulled out of the terminal when given the tug test.
That's a good point, with crimping, wire a crimp selection needs to be spot on and the tug test should be part of the process.
I would love to see how the crimping vs solder connections fair in a vibration test.. US military spec call for crimping connectors only so It would be great to see what is really the best method.
Looks like it's on the cards to do!
Good job/vid & tests Simon. I cant believe ur results tho, goes against everything I thought we knew about connections of this type, I think this subject needs more investigating. I have seen wires nap clean at the solder join & using ur exact same method had to redo a connection recently, as I believe the Ando plug connection had resistance and created enough heat to desolder that connection when using 20-35A for charging it would derate the amps going to the battery, sometime stop completely & then go to full amps again if I pushed on the connection. I have also come across a number of Ando’s u have to squiggle a bit to get them going sometimes, so the plug itself can be the source of too much heat if the connection isn’t the best, so I would never recommend to solder a Anderson plug without at least crimping first, if u feel u must solder, then I would say less is more, dont flood it too much or let it weep to or beyond the crimp.
Airforce & military have very strict guidelines concerning crimped or soldered connections.
I like ur approach, theory, tests, graphs & vid Simon I just cant believe the results, it’s like the JWST telling me now The Big Bang didn’t happen. TFS. Cheers
I was a bit sceptical of the results as well, hence testing with three different examples of each termination and averaging the results.
You're right though it's not just the individual terminations that can be the source of a high resistance joint, the actual contact between terminations can cause issues especially in adverse use conditions like you're likely to find on the outside of a 4WD.
Though having said that, for a non-sealed plug, the Andersons do really well considering what we can put them through from time to time.
Solder for a good electrical connection and a crimp for mechanical connection, so both seems to be the best option.
Hmmmm, I keep hearing about the fatigue issue of soldering with vibration movement, though I think if the loom is properly supported and decent double walled glue lined heat shrink is used, I'm not sure if it's as much of an issue as the pro crimp people make it out to be.
Anyway, when are we going to see more videos? It must have been a couple of months since the last one!
@@LockyourHubs4WDing I've always personally just soldered but have been looking at getting me a nice crimper. That one you were using looked like an eBay cheapy. Is that right? Seemed to do a pretty good job. I don't ever recall having a mechanical failure in any of the ones I've done which is why I guess I've still not got around to picking up the tool. Look forward to the tests. I'm kind of struggling with motivation at the moment but trying to get back into it. Sometimes it's just hard to find content that has value and is worth making. I'm sure you know what I mean . It be can very rewarding but sometimes it can be a grind too.
@@DENMONKEY yes, the crimper is an eBay cheapy. I think we all understand the grind!
i have always soldered my anderson plugs for a couple reasons
1 if it breaks i can re solder the plug
2 if damage can replace easy
and when mounting the plugs i make them so the wires straight out of plug don't move as that is a fail point
and every plug get heat shrink to protect the wire
While I haven't tested it, I think heat shrink, especially the double wall glue lined variety would mitigate much of the issues with creating a potential point of fatigue when soldering.
@@LockyourHubs4WDing the glue lined will help more then normal heat shrink
With regards to just soldering lugs and not crimping.
I know of a case where a soldered lug on a yacht alternator got hot from an electrical fault and the solder melted letting the live wire fall out of it's lug and short out on the engine.
Crimping would have prevented this.
There are going to be individual instances of both dodgy crimps and soldered joints. If the joint had been soldered properly, it wouldn't have gotten hot enough to melt the solder.
Did the soldered joint fail due to the engine vibration? Or was the soldered joint substandard to begin with?
Good question and one I can't answer. This story is third hand. But the facts are, if it was crimped as well as soldered the wire souldn't have came out of the lug. (provided it didn't break) That's handy if your on a yacht in th middle of the Pacific Ocean.@@LockyourHubs4WDing
Soldered makes more sense, as with crimping there's always a gap. Solder fills those gaps giving a larger contact patch. Also crimping doesn't work if you are fitting a 50amp Anderson plug to a 3mm wire.
But solder can cause a weak point at the end of the solder. But if the wire is large or never moves that's a null point.
That's one of the main reasons I used to usually solder, in a production scenario, you're always going to have the right connection for the gauge of wire you're using. That rarely happens when you're cobbling something up at home for the 4WD. As to the weak point, I always use double walled glue lined heat shrink in the hope that it'll not only help with any potential corrosion, but help support the joint as well.
Auto elec ere. Love ya work. Ahh to do a perfectly wetted solder connection without getter any solder on the outside of the connector. It can be done. Original anderson literature says to solder only. The wall thickness of the Anderson connector wire socket is far to thin to hold a solid mechanical crimp.
If I remember correctly don't Anderson Power do pellets of solder of different volumes that you can drop in the various terminations to get exactly the right amount of solder in the joint?
Currently they give crimping as the norm but also permit soldering.
interested in comparisson with vibrations etc.... thank you
It's on the cards!
Good video mate. It would be interesting to redo the test after crimping the terminal with the proper Anderson power products 1309G4 crimp tool so that it meets their specifications. The genuine tool uses a single indent to crimp, there are too many variables using a hex crimp that the terminal isn’t designed for.
While I agree it would be interesting, I think it would be of limited value.
Most home gamers if they're going to pick up a crimper, will pick up a reasonably priced middle of the road crimper, and the model I used is by far the most popular.
That's why I chose that particular crimper for the test.
@@LockyourHubs4WDing I think a hammer crimper is the cheapest. I have one. It's single indent.
I just want to know if the wife noticed the torch job you did on the cutting board handle @6:02 lol
Hahaha, yes 😂
You must have a massive gadget cupboard
Lol, room you mean!
@@LockyourHubs4WDing plural?
@@DENMONKEY hahaha
@@LockyourHubs4WDing yeah me too. Gonna need a bigger shed.
I measure the resistance of connectors and circuits a lot - both in assessing why people are having charging issues with 4wds and caravans and also out of my curiosity. But I think finding a number for resistance is irrelevant to our typical application. I prefer to use a much higher current (typically 25A from a big tyre pump) and spear the wires across a paired connector, measuring voltage drop. I'd typically see something like 0.01V drop across a paired anderson connector. The voltage drop is so miniscule, to be irrelevant. It does not matter if something is 3 times worse, because 3 times nothing equals nothing.
I wouldn't say the resistance is irrelevant, I would say the resistance is more relevant than voltage drop when checking the suitability of a termination.
Resistance is independent of either voltage or current, then once you know the resistance you can work out the wattage lost to the joint at a certain current draw.
As multivoltage systems become more common, like the car running 12v and the house system either 24 or 48v systems we're going to need to move away from quoting units that are only applicable to the one voltage system and can be assessed regardless of the system voltage used.
@@LockyourHubs4WDing "Resistance is independent of either voltage or current" - I love your work, but find it hard to agree, but I'm a V=iR sort of guy :-)
@@philg2468 haha, outta context, but got me!
@@LockyourHubs4WDingisn’t that where Watts come in, Watts are a unit of energy at any voltage
Can use solder paste in joint before crimping (then heat to melt after crimp) if youre doing combined joint
I haven't tried that, how did it work for you?
@@LockyourHubs4WDing I got it off the guy who runs AntPak power (ex Siemens power system engineer) who always does it. Works well but the paste is $$
@@bruceshelley840 Cheers, I'll have to look into it.
crimping is more susceptible to corrosion
soldering alone has no mechanical grip if the wire is overheated (it shouldn't ever get that hot, but shite happens)
crimping and soldering solves both those issues.
fatigue is never an issue with proper cable restraint, and likely never would be in an anderson plug housing. it gets thrown around a lot that manufacturers don't solder, but people fail to realize manufacturers do what makes the most money and is easiest not always what's best.
in a 4wd application that gets used as a 4wd and sees mud,water and corrosive environments then corrosion is probably more of an issue than fatigue.
I agree, especially if the connection is external.
@@LockyourHubs4WDing I have a video suggestion to help the Muppets that drive through saltwater. Do a video of passing current through a copper wire suspended in saltwater showing how it turns the copper into verdigris.
Then I can paste the video link on every social media post showing someone driving through saltwater.
Did you perform a pull test afterwards to verify the quality of the crimp? This one doesn't have a proper shape for a hex die.
Yes, I always give them a good yank with a pair of pliers to make sure I haven't dropped the wrong connection on the wire.
@@LockyourHubs4WDing It would be 400N pull. Check the "Crimp Specification for Powerpole 75 & SB 50 Contacts" pdf. The resistance is way out of spec, meaning something in the setup is not right.
@@user-yr6hn9rn2z It's just the wrong crimp die, he's not buying it, but that hex is not gonna work right.
NASA have an informative document on the making of connections available online, they only allow crimp connections. The reasons are discussed in the documentation. Before crimping use a product such as NO_OX to prevent oxidation of the internal area of the connector and the copper wires. Also was the cable that was used sized correctly for the connector, it did appear to be too loose a fit and the crimp tool hex size correct for the connector? All these specifications have an effect on the connection quality.
It was the correct sized wire and crimp, do you have a link to the NASA document?
Nasa dont have to crimp joints sitting in salt water in the bottom of your boat. Eg, if you needed to join a wire to your bilge pump, crimp + solder + heat shrink with glue. Relaibilty is the key in salt water environments. Even on the river, corrosion is an issue.
for anderson connections i 1000% percent say crimp because if for any reason the wire heats up the solder can separate!!!
If the wire or connection are ok, I've run 100A though a SB50 (50a Anderson) with no issues .
After nearing 50 years of Soldering ,I feel like a winner🤣🤣..Was that stripper from Jaycar ??
Hahaha, I use both, though over the journey probably more soldering than crimping. The stripper was from Sydney Tools.
Thanks for the reply
Zeroing also only removes one of the two contact resistances, nit both.
Why's that?
I'm not disagreeing with the principles involved but your soldering technique worries me a bit. Shoving the cable into a molten puddle and then moving it about while it's cooling is going to result in a pretty poor joint, with micro-cracks all the way through it. The cable needs to be firmly held in position inside the contact and both restrained before heating and applying the solder to the assembly, then left to cool before allowing anything to move. Better yet, tin the cable before the assembly.
You try to minimise movement while the solder solidifies. The reason I don't tin the wire is to minimise the solder heading back up into the cable, under the insulation. I had the same reservations, so cut one apart and found full penetration and no evidence of crystallisation of the solder.
Crimps have to be extremely tight, basically merging the metal. I think you had the wrong dies.
If the crimp job was good it should marginally beat a good solder job, but doing both if crimped hot would do marginally better again. Devil is in the details of the work done, here.
The crimp was tight and survived the "pull test" no issues. I have tried the 8mm dies and they over crimp those connectors, cutting into the connections.
I have the same hydraulic crimper. Plenty of wire suppliers cheat and have less copper than the guage suggests. I often use one side of the die the next guage down. Sometimes both sides the next guage down. If the wire still flexible near the crimp, it isnt fully t crimped.
Crimps for simps
Flow for pros
Lol, I'll have to remember that one!
I work on the KISSS principle, Keep It Simple Steve’s Stupid
🤣🤣🤣!
Bad methodology in the end. To properly measure this you want to pump much more chrrent through it into some kind of stable load. Eg headlights via a battery with a charger attached. Then measure voltage dropped across the joint.
Ohm's law determines the resistance, not the amount of current. As long as the amount of current is enough for the resolution and accuracy of the meter to get a decent reading, it'll work. Anderson Power themselves only use 5A to determine resistance over the joint.
All too technical. All I want to do is power my 12v fridge. Now I'm stressed!!!
Haha, we'll at least you know the best method to join the wires to power the fridge!
Your method of soldering is incorrect. You need to tin the cable first to ensure proper penetration of solder into the cable. Then insert tinned cable into the terminal while still heating( remove heat).
If you were to cut the terminal you made through, polished the cut end you would see the solder hasnt penetrated.
The reason I don't tin first is to stop the solder from wicking up the cable. I have cut one cable (small sample size I know! ) And we had full penetration of the solder in the wire.
Soldering is a bad idea for Automotive/Marine applications and is almost NEVER done by OEM builders. The reason is over time the area can become work hardened and break. It also has a tendancy to corrode. Have a look at a vehicle manufacturers wiring next time and see how much of it is soldered. Very little. Besides which it is time consuming.
P.S.
Love the channel and the empirical approach to all subject matter!
Just pointing out the elephant in the room..... Most people think soldering is the logical way to go......
It isn't........
I have heard a multitude of claims in regard to soldering vs crimping. One of which was that crimping was superior conductivity to soldering, and at face value considering the conductivity of solder vs copper, turns out that wasn't correct.
I would assume that without decent support, a soldered joint could suffer from fatigue related issues, though with double walled glue lined heat shrink that may be mitigated, though I haven't been able to find any hard data about that either.
@LockyourHubs4WDing Yes, I love the way you go about empirical testing of this.
Great channel . I've been a fan and subscriber for many years.
I would have assumed myself that a crimped connection would be electrically as conductive as a soldered one. But it is certainly mechanically stronger and more reliable in real world conditions. Especially in the longer term.
The conductivity may be not as good, but the differences are small and the variations as they age would close the gap even further I believe
Add to that the reduced cost of production and I guess it's a no brainer for OEM suppliers.
Nope. joints sitting in salt water in the bottom of your boat. Eg, if you needed to join a wire to your bilge pump, crimp + solder + heat shrink with glue. Relaibilty is the key in salt water environments. Even on the river, corrosion is an issue.
Oems dont solder due to cost.
@nordic5490 you miss the point.
The solder would serve absolutely NO purpose whatsoever in that scenario.
It's well established and tested that a crimped and insulated connection provides ALL the electrical and mechanical integrity that is ever required.
started to be a great vid till you solder crimp all the way
How's that?
I've worked professionally as a Licensed electrical fitter/mechanic... terminated countless heavy and small cables in the power generation/distribution, protection and control sector.
NEVER has soldering been an acceptable way, by any Standard, to terminate cables.
This is especially so in an aero applications. No Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer (LAME) would contemplate soldering or even crimping and soldering any wire or cable... EVER.
Further, no way would a professional electrician use a cheap ass crimper that couldn't apply the correct force. That lug could have been crimped a lot more. Evidence of that is the fact that not every hex side of the crimp are equal or correctly formed into the dies.
Think about that, if you can.
Your crimping and soldering methods suck too.
1. It's better to strip more insulation and achieve full depth of cable engagement, and have 0.5 to 1mm of cable strands appearing between cable insulation and lug than butted up with no indication of full engagement has occurred after a crimp.... which is what you have done here.
Heat shrink goes over the crimp only after inspection by someone QA qualified.
2. Your 'solder pot' idea is asking for dry joints, given all heat will be sucked out of the 'pot' when the cold cable is inserted.
3. The flame heating of the Anderson lug compromises the Tin plating on the lug and at even low temp anneal the copper, resulting in a contact joint that will fail far earlier than a crimped connection.
4. Solder flux is notorious for promoting corrosion. Not even dodgy plumbers use soft leaded solder these days. That's purely dodgy DIY.
The 'resistance measurement' method used is highly flawed too. Bridge circuit meters are used to directly measure ultra low resistance and calibrated. your 'data' means little. These are instruments that can detect the difference between correctly tensioned (using torque wrench, mind you) connection bolts in busbar to cable joints.. checking resistance of Earthing grids... and also used to test the welding of fused railway rails.
You are obviously only dealing with low voltages and currents in an automotive field that has little to no comparable industrial safety or current loading duty.
And chances are, people that terminate Anderson lugs onto cables don't even use the appropriate CSA cable, especially when the lugs are not specified in terms of Cross Sectional Area, rather, some supposed "current rating'' of the connector.
Gunna be difficult with Anderson connectors given Australian cables are manufactured to CSA Standards and NOT made to suit American 'gauge' standards, so there is that too.
You'll notice I never quote qualifications or experience to justify opinions, to do so is highly flawed, data never cares for a person's qualifications or experience.
This comparison provides hard data for conductivity only, and taking into consideration conductivity, soldering is proven to be the most efficient termination method.
@@LockyourHubs4WDing Right.. sure... I see.. a know-all that doesn't even know how to crimp a bloody lug properly or recognise a faulty tool.
Again, I've probably crimped more high current lugs ( what ya got are pissant - what you say is 10mm by the die selection... probably actually 16mm ) than you have had a warm bath... as a fully qualified electrician working in the commercial/Industrial sector to the highest Standards in this Country.
Your ignorant methods deem the so called data as worthless.
The only thing 'proven' is your ignorance.
If the voltage drop/resistance losses of crimp joints you make are that bad in the real World there would be countless fires occurring in every switchboard and machine around the World.
Think about that, if you can.
Glad you got that off your chest? 😁
Though seriously, I've learnt over the years just because you've been doing something for a long time, doesn't necessarily mean you're doing best practice.
And qualifications aren't worth the paper they're written on unless you're willing to question the status quo.
Every sparky I know, without exemption told me that the cold welding procedure as a result of the crimping process was more electrically conductive than soldering. And logically, as solder is also more electrically resistive than copper, that made sense.
Turns out the intermolecular bonding of a less electrically conductive intermediary-like solder can provide a more conductive termination than cold welding.
Don't make the mistake of looking at these things with a closed mind. If your current thinking doesn't match the data quantitatively acquired, then it's time to rethink what you "know" to be true.
@@LockyourHubs4WDing Buy a crimper that does the job correctly, and learn how to crimp lugs correctly.
To have that cheap POS hydraulically bypass without fully closing the dies is a clear indication it isn't up to the job. That should have been capable of fully closing the dies, even if the lug was oversized.
Never have I seen a crimper fail to do so unless during closure the copper barrel squeezes between the faces of the opposing dies... in which case a degree of what looks like flash presents. The 'flash is dealt with by rotating the lug in the hex die and closing down again.
Correctly manufactured dies do not result in a termination less than the rated CSA of the cable.
If you were working in the electrical industry, every crimp you did like so, especially those that didn't have FULL cable insertion that you thought was A-OK would be a QA fail and every termination redone. I've seen it happen many times, usually when a tradesman doesn't correctly supervise an apprentice or process worker, or the use of crappy tools not fit for purpose.
If the cable isn't full inserted 100% and fully crimped down it can pull out of the lug. Simple as that.
Those who suggest this was 'scientific data' don't know shit from clay.
Your data is based on poorly crimped lugs. All it proves is how bad it can be when some idiot does this kind of work.
Looks like you're not willing to let this one go.....
The dies were fully seated as I always push the crimper into bypass. Flash is a symptom of overcrimping with an undersized die.
Tell you what, being in the trade, no doubt you'll have access to a desktop DMM and Kelvin connectors.
Run exactly the same test, video it to prove the superiority of the crimping proceedure electrically and I'll link it up in the description.
Straight out of the gate , "You need to learn to solder before you make videos". In none of these cases did you actually solder anything, all you did was make cold joints that will never work well..... For 99.99999% of you, crimping is the ONLY way to go as you won't have the experience or skills to solder large/high current cables correctly (as demonstrated by old mate showing you how to utterly fail at soldering large conductors in his demonstration). Despite old mates test coming out in favor of solder (as it should), he created possible one of the worst solder joints you can have (cold joint) and this will fail and possible cause a fire at some stage in the future. Do not follow this demo for soldering anything....
Had you done it correctly the straight solder would be the same as crimp and solder (assuming you crimped then soldered but this unlikely you can crimp and solder correctly with tools at home). Fyi you need to tin you wires and wick the solder all the way into the cable before attempting to solder it to the connector.
Interesting, though your assertions seem a little contradictory. Firstly, you say the solder terminations are a "cold joint".
Then, you say the soldered joint should have the lowest resistivity. As the testing proved here. Though, a cold joint should have high resistivity and larger voltage drops than a properly soldered joint. None of which is present here...... :)
All I need is a pair if scissors, a lighter and a rock.