Epoxy Primer vs Self Etch Primer for Bare Metal
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 มิ.ย. 2013
- Bare metal must have epoxy primer, self etching primer, or DTM Direct to metal primer. Primer surfacer should not be applied directly to bare metal. In this video, I will discuss the three primers and let you decide which one you prefer. Paint mixing lids amzn.to/492vVqF Paint cups amzn.to/426C96E
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One of my first jobs was to paint big I-beams that had been fabricated for buildings and bridge work. The first day, knowing nothing about paints, I was given an airless and told to paint the metal, which had been blasted. I did it, and at quitting time, the boss said I did a good job, and to be there earlier tomorrow as he had a lot more to paint. When I came in the next day, he asked me did I clean out the airless unit. I said no. He told me that I wasn't to blame as I told him I didn't know anything about paint. We had to replace the hose, but the pump and gun we soaked in lacquer thinner and it cleaned it out very well. He said he woke up about 2 am and thought about it, but figured if I didn't clean it, there was no one to blame but himself.
I worked for that guy for 13 years, he was a great owner/boss.
kutzbill - Yea we have all had that experience of waking up in the middle of the night thinking about a mistake made on the job earlier in the day. Did you ever have to crawl up on erected structural steel work to paint?
i realize it's quite randomly asking but do anybody know of a good site to watch newly released tv shows online?
@Bishop Garrett I would suggest Flixzone. You can find it on google :)
@Bishop Garrett Try Flixzone. You can find it by googling =)
@Bishop Garrett I use FlixZone. Just search on google for it :)
You made the most specific video about primers on you tube. Thank you and LIKE from me
Glad you found it useful. Thanks for watching. I have a full lesson on sanding, priming, blocking, etc you may also find useful at www.collisionblast.com/paint-prep/
Great video, you answered alot of my questions. Based on what materials to use over bare metal and body fillers. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us.
As I see others saying in the comments, this is the most comprehensive video on primers on youtube. Good job and thank you!!
Great video, Donnie. I use DTM for large areas and aerosol self-etch on small things also.
Glad to see you getting back to the information vids Donnie. This has always been a hot topic, thanks for sharing your expertise on the matter.
Thanks for watching and I am glad the videos help.
I agree Im rebuilding a 87 XF Ford Falcon, I had a bit of idea what im doing but these videos are SOOO helpful. Thanks alot
Short simple and to the point! Great. Gives me the confidence to epoxy prime after dipping my car that I’m documenting on my channel
I really like your teaching style. Thank you for sharing. I'm newb and getting ready to do my own fender flaring body work.
Thanks for watching!
One uses reducer and the other one does not. This depends how thick you need the primer to be. If you are spraying a larger area, I would use some reducer so it does not spray out dry. If you are spraying a small spot, you can get by with the mixing ratio without reducer. At the end of this video, I have a link to the technical data sheet explaining the facts about 202. The link may also be in the description. Thanks for watching!
Thank you for clearing this up for me. Self etching will do fine for what I am using it for.
your videos are great, im grad i came across your feeds, your really friendly & easy to listen to thanks for taking time out to make them.. i have a 68 fast back i need to do body work on and will try to use as much as your teaching to get her there
ere
Thanks for clearing up this confusing topic!
I'm attempting my first restoration and this video really helped me chose the first coat of paint on the bare metal!
What did you use and how has it held up?
@@theperson185 I parted out the car and scrapped the shell. I suggest watching some Motion Auto or Junkyard Dave videos for what they use when painting. I think you can just use a sealer primer or epoxy primer over bare metal and filler before moving to high build.
@@david929190 I'm actually doing over a semi truck frame, so im just doing my research intowhat will stop rust and be durable and resistant to flexing
@@theperson185 See Debos garage heavy duty and his frame re-spray on his cab over. Any decent epoxy primer should be fine.
if you've blasted the frame. Etch primer would be best used for new metal that is too thin to abbraisevly prep for coating adhesion. In the oil and gas piping world all pipe is blasted to a white finish and then epoxy primed before topcoat. A rusty old frame won't need etch primer as the surface is not smooth.
Clearly explained. Good video. Thank you!
Thanks for the video, really helped me make my choice
Thank you for the detailed clarification.
Thanks, very helpful.
Unfortunately there are many really pertinent questions asked here but no responses, that's very frustrating.
Good info Donnie!! Thanks for posting!!
Yes, this will change the color. The best advice is to spray several spray out cards to see what effects it has and see which ones you like. Some color chip books also show you what it will look like with different base colors. Ask your paint supplier if they have something like this.
Good stuff, man. Very helpful. Thank you
Thanks Donnie. Kept it simple and not confusing that everyone else does
Thanks for your nice comment!
I have been putting epoxy primer on bare metal for 40 years...mostly PPG DP and then the newer DPLF. I had to learn the hard way, stripped a car to metal and applied lacquer primer surfacer...this was in the 70s. A year later it was flaking off. I like the ability to apply body fillers over it. I guess Iam old school....I have put some DTM product on bare steel but not sure how it will stand the test of time. Tried to locate the Shop Line product...that I think is a off shoot of PPG....cant get it locally....they tried to shove Omni off on me. You did a great job a explaining the the products...
I asked that question a little bit ago. Didnt get a good answer. This vid realy cleared things up
I do appreciate your video,easy to understand.
This is the video I needed to see. Thank you.
Awesome video man and very informative! I am clear coating a bare metal garden bench to keep that industrial look. I have bought 2k clear Matt to finish it off, if I use epoxy primer on the bare metal and then 2k clear over that, will it work nicely?
your explanations are pretty thorough, I feel I could do a proper job with the info you have. thanks.
Thanks for watching!
That was a very informative video❤❤thank you
Think the best videos on TH-cam. Excellent Thank you.
There are a lot of different paint companies out there. If you want to do something like this I would look over all of the technical data sheets to make sure they are all compatible with each other. At the end of this video, there are two videos that you can click for Shoplines epoxy and self etch technical data sheets.
Great discussion. I would say epoxy primer is better on steel as steel is so reactive. Otherwise etch primer is so much faster and easier to use on all other metals. I only use Sikkens etch wash primer though..
Yes, you can use DTM on top of filler or metal.
this is good tips for my firs time God bless you
Thank you. Very good instructional informative video
This guy knows his shit! I remember a few lessons learned the hard way with etch prime lol
Champion I was just trying to find this out the otherday
No, it is not recommended to put body filler over DTM. You should apply the body filer to direct metal. The only primer that filler can be applied on top of is epoxy. Thanks for watching.
Hey Mr Smith. You are a blessing.
I've learned a lot from you and I'm grateful.
QQ: I paint just wheels. Curb rash and sometimes whole wheels.
Is epoxy primer the only primer that I'll ever need?
And is there a can primer that you'd recommend for quick spot repairs on wheels?
Happy Easter and thanks in advance.
Thanks for breaking it down so perfectly, im a beginner and still have lots to learn, i do have 1 question tho, should the epoxy be sanded before applying surfacer?
Thanks for your video, just wondering what kind of primer you use for rust protection ? I have used rust converter on rusted surface, then applied body filler, now I am wondering if I should use Etch/ Acid primer on top of body filler, or I can use Urethane primer as a sealer then apply paint on top of it?
Appreciate your response on this.
Thanks
Great Vid,great info,thanks.
can you apply paint sealant over epoxy primer ? Also i'm kinda confused but after applying paint sealant can you leave it and paint over it?
Where can I get those gloves? Very good video. I was needing to learn about epoxy as I'm doing a 56 belair. Thanks
you mention the 72 hr window . If I use this to prevent rust on bare metal , do I just need to lightly scuff the panel to work on top of epoxy at a later date ?
great video answered a lot of questions I had asked in the past.
How do you clean the steel panels prior to applying epoxy? Do you use hydrochloric acid? Some people have mentioned corrosion breaking through epoxy. Naked hands are a no-no, but perhaps a acid application followed by water and degreaser would solve that issue. What do you think?
Wash and wipe or sand the metal for bondage with 120 or 180 grit sandpaper... Then do your bodywork then sand with 240 for final primer or high build primer then final sand with what is recommended for the paint you are using...
Great video Donnie, thanks for the good information. If I use a DTM primer, is it okay to put body filler on top of that, or does the filler still need to be on top of the bare metal?
Great info!
I'm glad you liked it. Thanks for watching!
I sand my hood down to bare metal, and I did some body filler work on it directly to metal. Now , do I need to use self etching primer and also a top coat of other top primer.? I cant find poxy prime around the area where I live. Thanks! Great video
Thank you awesome more on this it helps a lot
Great video!
Great video.
Thanks!
Great video thanks is it ok to put one coat of self 2k etch primer on then a couple of coats of epoxy on top of the self etch both panels I'm prepin have been no blasted back to bare metal I've only ever used self etch in past found it fantastic but I'd like to try epoxy on top of the self etch as a added bonus wat would you recon thanks
Great video, OSHA says paint cabinets have to be self closing.
Analysis of Anti Rust Products
Most rust converters and inhibitors which use Tannic Acid or Oxalic Acid, leave residues, and may use an acrylic polymer base which does not allow proper adhesion of epoxy paints. These brand names are Loctite Rust Neutralizer, Rustoleum Xtend, Eastwood Converter and Encapsulator. Ok for household use but will not allow proper adhesion of Epoxy finishes.
However, Phosphoric Acid (PA) is both a rust converter and inhibitor in one. It chemically bonds rust to metal and also leaves a fine film that prevents further rust from forming. It also cleans white corrosion on aluminum and heat scale from milling, greasy finger prints, residues, dirt, etc leaving a primed surface ready for paint. It also allows welding and sanding over it, excellent adhesion of epoxy primer and paint. It does not allow epoxy filler to fill dents and scratches. You need to use Epoxy Primer over the PA and then do gap filling and sanding.
You have these issues to deal with when refinishing cars in metal or fiberglass:
1. Rust neutralizing and inhibition. Chemically transform hidden rust and also prevent new rust.
2. Gap filling dents with epoxy filler.
3. Adhesion of epoxy primer and paint to the metal or fiberglass car body.
4. Anti-rust product must be be able to take sanding, welding, adhesion of epoxy primer and epoxy paint, leave no residue.
5. Need a product that removes finger prints, greasy residues, dirt, and leave a very clean surface primed for painting.
6. Need a product that you can apply to rusty metal and non rusty metal at the same time without adverse effects on either section. Cars have some rust spots but mostly not rusted.
7. Need a product that can remove aluminum white scale corrosion (from contact with air), and any heat scaling from milling. Many RVs have aluminum trim alongside fiberglass
and iron/steel pieces.
The only product that does all this - except gap filling with epoxy filler - is Phosphoric Acid.
Cost is $25 per Quart or $50 per Gallon online.
Compare this with Picklex 20 which is the same Phosphoric Acid.
Cost is $60 per Quart or $195 per Gallon online. More than double for a brand name for same product.
Beware the high priced brand names for ordinary products off the shelf.
I would like to know the active ingredients of Self-Etching Primers. I am sure they are the same thing - Phosphoric Acid sold at inflated prices.
It is important to note that you cannot compare Epoxy Primer with a Self Etching 'Primer'!
Epoxy Primer: True Primer. This bonds to metal, fills some tiny dents from sandblastic or wire sanding. It has zero rust CONVERTING ability. It cannot convert rust to a harmless form of Iron Oxide 3 which is stable and non-rusting. It does not leave a film to prevent rust. It coats
the metal and creates a good surface for the Epoxy Paint to adhere to. It also allows Epoxy filler putty if you want to even out some larger dents.
Self Etch Primer - Most likely Phosphoric Acid. Cleans, etches, CONVERTS rust to a stable form of Iron Oxide 3, and cleans surface well to take Epoxy primer and paint. IT DOES NOT TAKE EPOXY FILLER FOR GAPS! Now if you want to pay higher prices buy this. If you are smart, buy Phosphoric Acid directly.
Which one you think is the best for Aluminium and which is which is the most resistant heat. Im trying to paint my car engine gearbox and i confused what is the best for last long. Thanks and nice explanation.
hey there
i just cant understand why its not possible to apply body filler to etch primer? what happens when you do?
is it just a question of "bad adhesion" or dose it react somehow with the etch primer? cos to me it sounds even worse to apply filler direct to metal since its a poros material and simply the moisture in the air would get trapped under the filler as well... in my mind you need to apply something that chemicaly merges with the metal ( like acid helps etch primer do ) or something that transports ANY moisture to the surface or otherwise away from the metal.
good vids by the way this is not critic just woundering
Great videos,Thanks
can you paint directly over the etching primer. or do I have to apply a surface primer
On a surface that has rusted and been blasted or DA’d how should the metal be handled and cleaned to ensure adhesion of the primer? And what kind of window?
really hoping someone, maybe even Donnie can answer this for me as I cant seem to find anything on my specific situation. I have sanded down the factory paint using 180 grit sandpaper and have taken care of the bondo/bodywork (taking those areas down to bare metal before applying bodyfiller). Small areas throughout the body work have been sanded down to bare metal. I was told by my epoxy primer/sealer manufacturer to reduce the epoxy and spray it as a sealer but It may take me awhile to be able to fully spray those panels due to cold temps here still. So my question is can I use rattle can self etch on those bare metal spots and shoot the epoxy sealer directly over that and the rest of my scuffed original paint or will there be problems?. I keep reading not to shoot epoxy over self etch. Any help from anyone would be greatly appreciated.
sanded down some indoor hand railing down to the metal, someone told me to use etching primer over other primer because the paint will adhere better on the etching primer, the railing gets used alot on a daily basis. Other people told me it don't make a difference what type of primer, any info would be very helpful
Can you tell us a bit more about the DTM primer/sealer? I have a can of it.
Also, I checked the can and the documentation and there's no window specified. Any reasonable estimates? It says I can sand after 50 minutes, but it may take a few days before I can topcoat.
Very good video.
I use Epoxy all the time and here's a few things to consider as well.
I see your catalyst is nice and liquid, thinning down the final mix to a sprayable consistency.
My epoxy catalyst is THICK. The ratio on the Nova 3000 I like to use is 4 parts epoxy and one part catalyst, after induction time the mix is THICK.
I wouldn't even consider pouring that down my gun, it just won't shoot no matter how big a nozzle I use so I have to thin it down. Ask me how I know.
Tip : When you buy epoxy, inquire how think the catalyst is. In order to shoot paint or anything with a gun it needs to be thin, almost like milk. So if the catalyst doesn't act as a thinner, you NEED TO BUY EPOXY THINNER, any all purpose thinner will not work, some will even sort of coagulate your epoxy after a few minutes and good luck cleaning that out of your gun, you need a specialized thinner.
Personally I like to thin quite a lot and shoot out of a 1.8 nozzle on the HVLP gun.
If you have to thin your epoxy primer, wait AFTER induction time. So you wait your 15 or so minutes, stir it up a bit and pour down the thinner until desired consistency.
Second thing is that epoxy doesn't sand very well in my experience. Some primers sand better when completely dry (72+ hours) but breaking the surface of the primer with sand paper is annoying and can gum up the paper real fast.
State there's three options: epoxy, self-etching, & DTM. How does the primer-surfacer & sealer apply to priming?
I working on a beat up 92 Ford F250, finished body work on the hood and applied epoxy primer. Wouldn't you know it I missed a small ding, can I apply bondo directly over the epoxy? Also I intend to apply a high build primer, how long can the epoxy primer sit before applying the high build primer?
Newbie question here...
I bought 5star #5451 highbuild 2k primer and realized I may hit some metal seeing that prior owner used mystery paint and looks like he hand rolled the paint on haha. I’ve seen the prices of some etching primers and I’ve seen some $20 SEM or Upol aerosal self etching primers. Can I use aerosal self etching primer on exposed metal and then spray my urethane primer? Will it react and mess everything up?
I saw your video and it was very informative. I am wondering if I can use the epoxy on a collectable loggers hand saw. I am a spray paint artist and received a request to do a cabin and mountain scene and new york skyline on stainless steel. Ive never painted on stainless steel before the dimensions of the 3 saws are 5 foot long 6 in tall in center, 5 inches tall by the handle at the other end 1 1/2 ' tall. That is the biggest one. The smallest one is 29 inches long and 4 inches center. Any kind of direction would be appreciated.
Also can you spray the epoxy just to seal the bare metal, if you aren't able to paint yet?
great info.
Great video. Say you missed the window to apply 2k primer. Do you use a maroon scotchbrite to prep surface for the 2k? what sand paper would be a good choice if not?
I created a video that I hope helps answer your question - th-cam.com/video/Gt624E830sg/w-d-xo.html
I've made a piece of furniture with Aluminium trim. I just want to protect the edge whilst keeping the colour would one of these work? It's 5mm x 500mm. It's a floor lamp so it won't get much abuse.
Does seam sealer go on before or after the epoxy primer? Thank you for the explanation of the various primer options. It can be a bit confusing.
Did you get a answer
@@anthonymaniz1933 Yes. Thank you for asking. Cheers 🍻
I'm down to bare metal should I do seem sealer first.next question should I etch prime or epoxy prime first before body work I'm doing a Chevelle thank you
what brand of epoxy primer is good or is it all the same thanks
Great video!my question is how to prep the proxy for primer o what tipe o primer and when to apply?thanks
I am Restoring a classic Peugeot 404. It’s in the body shop now. Must I go to bare metal on the whole car to get a show car finish?
After applying phosphourus to bare metal do I sand the phosphorus off then apply epoxy primer or just apply epoxy over the proposed?
I have slivers of bare metal that need to etch primed that are enclosed by sanded basecoat. Can I get etch overspray onto the sanded basecoat without negative effects? If not, how would I go about prepping these areas?
I have a flat sheet of metal that do not need perfection. Can you apply base coat over self etching primer thereby skipping the primer surfacer and the work to get everything perfectly flat?
One question which is better way put epoxy primer first at the metal before put filler or after put the filler and sand it all area repair with plastic filler then put epoxy primer on the filler and metal and after dry put primer ????????
Hi Donny. Which Size Tip would I need to spray Epoxy primer? I only gotten a 1.4 tips would that work ok.
Kudos! Question. When is the right situation to apply a DTM primer? I am guessing that it is for when your primer will also cover a painted surface and you do not want the acidity of an etching primer to lift the existing paint?
That is correct. It is also one step of applying primer instead of two steps. It provides filling and corrosion protection with one primer.
Thank you for clearing that up for me.
@DIY Auto Body and Paint 2 years later to my last comment,i can reveal that i sprayed a metal drum BBQ in my back yard with both epoxy and etch primer in 2 seperate halves on the drum lid and 2 years later the etch primer wins,no rust coming through wheras the epoxy has rusted.
The BBQ drum was left outside in all wetahers totally unprotected
Thanks for testing that. Primers do absorb moister. A top coat really needs to be applied on top to help prevent rust. Thanks for your feedback and letting me know results.
DIY Auto Body and Paint
you are right,yes i never put a top coat on at all :(,even though left outdoors the etch worked best for me as in the UK it always rains
@@SP330Y ... same here. We also have better experiences with etching primer. Harsh winter conditions didn't do any damage to etch primed metal, where epoxy based primer failed and rust took over again (engine under tray).
@@metallmannschneider9856 further to this i also did an experiment with ZINC paint (cold zing galvanised paint) a product called ZG90, an that has amazing results, when i scratched off the silver zinc paint, the metal underneath was like brand new, tht wasn't even top coated with any other paints, so for me the best 2 are etch primer and cold zinc galvanised paints
thats where i get confused i have some clean metal spots and black rust spots also...after wax and grease remover what should be done to the bare metal...should it be prepped or just hit it with epoxy
Are they using epoxy as a sealer before painting? That will be fine, but if they are applying self etch, then epoxy, then primer surfacer....I don't know that there is a benefit. Unless there is a paint company that recommends that. I know with PPG or Shopline that is not necessary.
Hi Donnie, great vid, you mention paint strainers and you mention sometimes you use two for basecoat and clear. Do you have a preference for the actual size of the strainer 120 - 400 microns range, depending on application? Do you additionally use a strainer if you are using the 3M pps system with the strainer incorporated into the system? Thanks J
I am curious also! The PPS 2.0 system makes it impossible to remove the inner screen without cutting it. If you pull on it or use pliers, it comes in pieces add junk into the cap!
You have to time properly as well, because even with an induction time, pot life is real short.
if im building a caravan sort of construction, with spray foam being applied to sheet aluminium, what would be the best way to prime?
Can you put rust converter and then epoxy? Just to be 100% that small rust spots on the chassie is protected
I'm still confused though. Is epoxy ONLY for bare metal? I was taught that epoxy goes over the bodywork but under the high-build primer. Also, can't you shoot the epoxy over regular primer as well? I have been doing my car in one small section at a time and occasionally use rattle can primer to cover the small area I'm working, then when I'm done with that section entirely, i shoot the epoxy PPG primer.
When you say no body work on self etch,. Does that go with primer surfacers as well
Can DTM be used with bare aluminum? I have a water fountain I want to prime and paint the area under the water. Can I use epoxy primer and then use epoxy with some color for a nice effect?
If i cleaned magnesium properly could i use 2k epoxy on it and not worry about it lifting off from escaping gasses getting though the magnesium/ aluminium?
Interesting. Can a spray gun be use to apply this first coat on the metal
Im looking for a primer that will work good with GLUVIT(Marine boat epoxy)...what would you recommend?
No, I have not used there primers. There have been some people tell me that they like it.
what about galvanized metal? no oil primer on galvy but perhaps epoxy or etching primer is fine?
I'm one of use por-15 for my undercarriage do I need primer or can I just put it on that way by itself and maybe later spray over it thank you again
I use POR15 as a primer on rusty spots before putting on filler. It is epoxy based and is sensitive to sun. You have to paint over it.
This is my method, is this Ok?Sand paint to expose metal,(80grit) Then apply 1k etch primer. Scuff that back, then apply High Build 2k sandable primer. Then sand that ready for paint.... Is this ok?
Technical Noob Question: What about both? I noticed you stressed the word "OR" when talking about self-etch and epoxy, but can you put self-etch down and then epoxy over it for like super-awesome corrosion control? Please excuse my naivete, I really don't know what I am doing and thought I would ask. Thank you for your time and pointers.
+Keith Kie You could, but both provide good corrosion protection. I don't know if both together would really provide more corrosion protection or not. I prefer epoxy, but that is just a personal preference. Hope that helps, thanks for watching.
+Keith Kie Theoretically, the only one that is providing corrosion control is the layer in contact with the metal.