Did you update the link though? I just tried importing it and its sitting at 122.29% count. Edit: Nvm. New download of MDT has updated the mob placement and it works.
Hey Tactyks just wanna say a quick thank you!! Your approach to explaining M+ is amazing. In depth but also straight to the point. Keep up the great work and thank you for your generosity with these videos!
Glad you enjoy it! I know mists can look daunting with the 2 skips in there but these were done in pretty much every PUG group back in SL and can be done without invis pots by more than half the classes in the game which is why they were included. Usually I try to avoid requiring invis pots specifically since most PUG groups don't have them and/or it can be punishing to die, which is why I emphasized it so much in the Siege of Boralus route.
@@Tactyks I've tried that first mist skip as a mage a few times now, we would sheep, run past, and then I would invis, the mobs always come. Am I doing something wrong? Do I need to invis after the sheep breaks?
@@Yekim2o3 It's important that you are the first person to run past, as it's that player that gets into combat with the mob. Then just make sure you wait until your group is well out of range of the mob before invising and that should work. If you have a way to check combat you can confirm you've left before moving on, and worst case you can always run into the pack and quickly die then get rezzed.
Question. As a newer tank for ease of use, is there a way to use a weak aura or something to take the route imports from MDT to auto mark which mobs or packs of enemies I should pull at an easier glance?
I don't believe anything like that exists currently, there are auto-marker WeakAuras people use but those mostly just mark mobs with important interrupts each pull to help assign kicks.
Good to note, I was concerned the patrol combined with longer boss fight duration could potentially be a problem there, but it may not even be a consideration if the boss still patrols in M+.
I'm new to MDT add-on, but was wondering if you share these or if that is not something people really do? Thanks in advance and thank you for the great videos.
No problem at all! I have links to the routes on the wago site in the description, which is where most people share strings that you can copy and import into your MDT in game for your own use.
I tested it yesterday and all Monks can skip footnote 2 in MoTS. You para+ring (center of ring closest to the mob to get max push back). You can only do this is you don't have soothe para talented.
I think Pack 13 for Dawnbreaker is changed? Yours shows 1x Manifested Shadow, 1x Nightfall Tactian, 1 Nightfall Shadowalker. But my MDT shows Darkcaster in place of the Shadow. This drops the count to 99.35%. Maybe my MDT is wrong but I just updated it. Thanks
It's the Mythic Dungeon Tools addon, it doesn't show notes during the run however you can quickly open it mid run or even snip it and throw it up on your 2nd monitor for when you're learning routes until you've got everything memorised.
Yeah I heard the monstrosity was moved, if that's the case for M+ as well and not just m0 I'll be sure to update the route (and will also add any new orb positions if they exist).
you can't skip the pack in necrotic wake by hugging the side wall... I tried already and we instantly got spotted, and you can't mind soothe the target either, it is immune
You have a few options: 1) Jump the nearby corner, this is a bit tricky to do but allows you to skip the pack whereas hugging the wall doesnt, but don't recommend trusting pugs to do this 2) Use a threat reduction CC on the nearest mob and hug the wall, so things like Sap, Imprison, Mind Soothe, or Paralysis + Ring of Peace 3) Just run back the normal way, this is like a 10s ish time loss (maybe less) so not a big deal
Can't you tank-kill the spotter+sniper group in siege anymore like you did back in the day? Meaning tank goes in solo without anyone drawing aggro and kills them all with the spotter?
@@LCHEN0321 For BDK there are a few trinkets that are all pretty solid options. Sacbrood is still very solid because it gives a lot of primary, but you can also target the Meathook from necrotic wake or Orator's Larynx from City of Threads. From raid there are also a couple solid options with no hard BiS, namely the Arsenal trinket from Sikran, the Corrosive Organ from Rasha'nan, or Mad Queen's Mandate from Ansurek.
I hope you post the dawnbreaker walkthrough first. As a tank I am so clueless where to land, the minimap is not helpful, can't see anything while skyriding, and people expect you to land perfectly and do perfect pulls on day 1...
I just found out that this is a thing for mythic+ now, i havent played wow in many years and its insane that people use these kinda addons and routes now and its expected. It makes me not want to play mythic+. Because there is just no way in hell i am going to memorize all these pulls LOL, are you kidding, i cant believe this stuff is required to simply make the runs.
@@MrMonoposon But blizzard have removed lower keys, the keys now start at +10 in dragon flight equivalent "In Season 1, Mythic dungeons in WoW are getting a big revamp. They’ll now feel like the old +10 levels", so all keys are high keys.
@@trancer03 If it means anything they’re not timed and don’t affect score, no mob count needed, and can pretty much be done in heroic dungeon gear even if it’s rather slow with it not upgraded at all. And provide great loot without the added stress and no need to grind to +10 with the stress of timing all the way up to it.
You don‘t there are more then enough tanks who just do whatever the fuck. And there are other possible routes. Just don‘t pull to much at on once and too much above 100%
Yea, I would never ever recommend pulling 7 blight bags in the first pack in NW for pugs. Even lust won't help your healer with 7 x AOE burst going out instantly....
I’ve never understood the design philosophy of the intro to Mists. Why even have that mob there if it isn’t needed for percentage and is almost always skipped? That’s just completely unintuitive and unnecessary.
The pathing isnt even the problem. Its just that pugs are for the most part idiots. I havent timed a single +3 this week due to people not following mechanics and its just too much of a waste of time. I dont have friends that play wow and my guild is one of those chill ones since we only have a couple hours a day to play.
Like I said in the video, you don't have to use invis in any route and can opt to W key if prefered, plus only a single route even has invis pots as a recommendation. If you think these routes are crazy, wait til you see actual "+20 routes" hahaha.
i like your routes and appreciate your content, but saying pug friendly and then putting invis skips is just disingenuous. Half of the people dont bring pots, and even if you do skip without wasting 15 secs trading consumables, people then have trouble comming back to the group after dying. Each season i take your routes i have to switch some pulls around to compensate for this unreasonable requirement. Unless this is meant to be only for +12 onwards keys then sure
Like I said in the video, there is 1 singular invis skip in all 8 routes, and if you really don't want to do that you can just W key. Siege is just kind of weird after the count adjustments they made where you're forced to get 110%+ count by walking through it, and I guarantee that pull will farm more pug groups this season than the 15s it takes to trade a potion, particularly early in the season. Not to mention a graveyard unlocks shortly after. Also as I discuss in the video, these routes are meant to be tailored to your group, so if you want to do things like bigger pulls, smaller pulls, or not do some of the non-invis skips then you can, this just helps to give people an idea of what a simpler route would look like to start from.
i predict people will get destroyed by simple wasd mechanics of that boss for the entire first week, and then we'll have to clear the pack anyways. But sure ur right with this forced 110% adjusting is very easy
Ask pugs before they join if they have invis pots & know the skip. If they don’t, you dodged that bullet, & instead invite someone capable of performing the most basic aspect of keys 👍
Oh good you finally learned how to run mists of Tirna Scithe. Hopefully my notes helped bc ur video was lackluster at best. Unsure why you say skip the first pack of stag horn but then include insane packs with like 6 enemies at once. The stag horns are not difficult to kill, only time consuming and they are ONLY time consuming if you don’t interrupt them. Interrupt them and you will be fine. Once you kilt the 2nd boss the rest of the dungeon is a cakewalk but you can easily die to being stupid so, don’t be stupid. Don’t fall off, don’t get punted off, watch your feet and try to hug left so you don’t aggro reavers early. I’m not a fan of the extra maze pull as it takes time to do it correctly. Time that most people will not have and will not understand. Just do the extra pack of bugs after he last boss, they are quite literally the easiest trash piles in the dungeon. They only get hectic when you try to tank 15 of them at once. Which many folks mistakingly did in shadowlands. I did this dungeon hundreds of times. Over 300 attempts. I’ve seen all possibilities of how mists can be done and not done. You are not focusing on the maze enough which is generally the time killer for most groups. It is imperative to have a WA or add on and to pre assign a ranged member (healer or dps) observe each symbol so you can go thru the maze as fast as possible. The second boss is a pain in the ass if you don’t take care of the adds! I will repeat! The fox always takes priority!!!
Not one of these videos even attempts to take a stab at the affixes and how they work. Blizzard has released conflicting information and I’m trying to figure out are we still getting the shitty affixes like reckless and thorned? We are for sure getting the xalatath affix. And fort / tyran but it’s unclear if the other two are new / old. Wowhead is saying the third affix is up in the air, either being the new set of affixes or the revised new list of Bolstering, etc. they are saying the fourth affix is another tyran / fort but the opposite one you got at lower key. I want to know who has the most accurate information on this. Have they not released this info yet and we will discover the answer later today / this week? Please let me know
This image gives the main gist of it: d2ertrwg9e34np.cloudfront.net/original/1X/7b12ea4894e157c8235baa0d3099baf6df6f502d.jpeg Xal'atath's Guile is 1 of 4 new affixes in Ascendant, Voidbound, Oblivion, and Devour which I already went over in my S1 video here: th-cam.com/video/jshop_bXXDw/w-d-xo.html
I've got even better routes for this season, with particular emphasis on PUGs, and especially if you're a tank or healer. Fair warning, routes involve some tactical skips. So... DO DELVES AND RAID. Pugging M+ this time around? Yeah, NOOOPE.
@@Tactyks Here's to hoping for the best, but PUG life in general happens at a level of skill that just doesn't even compare to yours, and for the rest of us I fear it's gonna be hell. Thanks for your guides, you're one of two people, three at most, who give us a chance to play. There's you, there's Quazii, and I can't really think of a third. If you stop sharing this work, we stop playing this game. By 'we', I mean the many people like me, who might do KSM, but just don't have the hands required for something like, say, the Mage Tower. We're the majority, unfortunately.
@@mothman84 Always happy to help my friend, I know the PUG life can be very tough, especially early in the season. Good luck with M+ launch, hopefully it's not as bad as you fear!
Blizzards dungeons are just really poorly designed. They create these pointless confusing raid like dungeons that just don't need to be that way. there should only be one path, one way, enemies always blocking the way and you are forced to fight them. Not have people wonder around and wonder who to pull, where, and when and where the hell to go. It's stupid, it's pointless. because once people learn it, it's frivolous regardless. It serves no purpose, and is just annoying and creates a much higher unnecessary point of entry in terms of difficulty for NO reason.
Updated Necrotic Wake, Siege of Boralus, and Dawnbreaker for count adjustments and mob position changes
Did you update the link though? I just tried importing it and its sitting at 122.29% count.
Edit: Nvm. New download of MDT has updated the mob placement and it works.
Hey Tactyks just wanna say a quick thank you!! Your approach to explaining M+ is amazing. In depth but also straight to the point. Keep up the great work and thank you for your generosity with these videos!
Appreciate the kind words friend, glad you're finding the content useful!
Yo bro you keep popping up on my TH-cam feed! And your videos are so helpful. Keep up the good work!!
Glad you enjoy them friend!
Tactyks my goat back to relieve route anxiety 🎉
Happy to help!
thanks for the effort friend
Always happy to help!
Easy paths with no skips, proceeds to talk about mists, 3 skips. Haha jk , great vid ty
Glad you enjoy it! I know mists can look daunting with the 2 skips in there but these were done in pretty much every PUG group back in SL and can be done without invis pots by more than half the classes in the game which is why they were included. Usually I try to avoid requiring invis pots specifically since most PUG groups don't have them and/or it can be punishing to die, which is why I emphasized it so much in the Siege of Boralus route.
@@Tactyks I've tried that first mist skip as a mage a few times now, we would sheep, run past, and then I would invis, the mobs always come. Am I doing something wrong? Do I need to invis after the sheep breaks?
@@Yekim2o3 It's important that you are the first person to run past, as it's that player that gets into combat with the mob. Then just make sure you wait until your group is well out of range of the mob before invising and that should work. If you have a way to check combat you can confirm you've left before moving on, and worst case you can always run into the pack and quickly die then get rezzed.
Keep up the great work, i enjoy your videos
Thank you my friend, glad you find them useful!
Right on time, appreciated
No problem at all friend, good luck next week!
ty very much, I was trying to follow keystone guru but this is much cleaner and easier to understand
No problem at all!
Great video! Was looking for someone to walk through the maps before heading into m+ week so this was perfect! Best of luck with the season
Glad you found it useful, good luck to you as well!
Thank you!
Happy to help!
Question. As a newer tank for ease of use, is there a way to use a weak aura or something to take the route imports from MDT to auto mark which mobs or packs of enemies I should pull at an easier glance?
I don't believe anything like that exists currently, there are auto-marker WeakAuras people use but those mostly just mark mobs with important interrupts each pull to help assign kicks.
here we go again :D
NEW SEASON BABY LETS GOOOOO
I did dawnbreaker in M0 with the stationary boss. It was doable without agroing the Militant
Good to note, I was concerned the patrol combined with longer boss fight duration could potentially be a problem there, but it may not even be a consideration if the boss still patrols in M+.
Thanks man!
No problem at all!
That is helpful. Thanks!
No problem at all!
I'm new to MDT add-on, but was wondering if you share these or if that is not something people really do? Thanks in advance and thank you for the great videos.
No problem at all! I have links to the routes on the wago site in the description, which is where most people share strings that you can copy and import into your MDT in game for your own use.
@@Tactyks oh dang I totally missed those thanks for the quick reply.
@@Newskin01 Of course!
Ty so much sir!
No problem at all friend!
Those enforcers smack hard in Grim butthol.. I mean Batol
Haha yeah they can be super scary if their enrage stacks ramp up
I tested it yesterday and all Monks can skip footnote 2 in MoTS. You para+ring (center of ring closest to the mob to get max push back). You can only do this is you don't have soothe para talented.
Interesting that the soothe para puts you in combat, did not know that!
Ia there a way i can display the route on my second monitor
Snipping tool is OP
I think Pack 13 for Dawnbreaker is changed? Yours shows 1x Manifested Shadow, 1x Nightfall Tactian, 1 Nightfall Shadowalker. But my MDT shows Darkcaster in place of the Shadow. This drops the count to 99.35%. Maybe my MDT is wrong but I just updated it. Thanks
Thanks for the shout, looks like MDT got an update today so I will push a count adjustment!
Curious about this tool you’re using.
Do you need to remember all of this during the run or does it show the ’notes’ somehow during the run?
It's the Mythic Dungeon Tools addon, it doesn't show notes during the run however you can quickly open it mid run or even snip it and throw it up on your 2nd monitor for when you're learning routes until you've got everything memorised.
@@Tactyks thanks for the input! Keep up the good work
@@ryss1 No problem, happy to help!
can you drop the weak aura you using? that one looks better then mine. thanks !
All the tank spec WAs I use are available on my wago profile!
wago.io/p/Tactyks
Dunno if necrotic wake will work. m0 some mobs are placed differently and I think 2 orbs are differently placed
Yeah I heard the monstrosity was moved, if that's the case for M+ as well and not just m0 I'll be sure to update the route (and will also add any new orb positions if they exist).
@@Tactyks Yeah there is another orb at the position of narzudah, probably hunter or rogue can take it up only with FD or Vanish
and do u know anything about the golems, how can someone open them, or is it even possible?
@@zsoltizsak7899 The golems no longer work unfortunately!
you can't skip the pack in necrotic wake by hugging the side wall... I tried already and we instantly got spotted, and you can't mind soothe the target either, it is immune
On Stonevault path: How do you take the cart after the 2nd boss if you skip the group near the cart, it pulls them even if I hug the wall
You have a few options:
1) Jump the nearby corner, this is a bit tricky to do but allows you to skip the pack whereas hugging the wall doesnt, but don't recommend trusting pugs to do this
2) Use a threat reduction CC on the nearest mob and hug the wall, so things like Sap, Imprison, Mind Soothe, or Paralysis + Ring of Peace
3) Just run back the normal way, this is like a 10s ish time loss (maybe less) so not a big deal
@@Tactyks thanks for the detailed answer! I love your routes!
@@oronbz No problem, glad you find them useful!
Hey! I have to add the sleeping ogres to reach 100 % on these routes. Was there any changes?
A few of the routes got adjusted due to count changes at the start of the season, all links should be up to date now though!
Can't you tank-kill the spotter+sniper group in siege anymore like you did back in the day? Meaning tank goes in solo without anyone drawing aggro and kills them all with the spotter?
Spotters no longer deal friendly fire damage, so unfortunately that strat doesn't work anymore.
NW: Pull boss while on the platform, worms can't get up for awhile.
Great tip!
If you throw a Hexbot Tinkerbomb 72000 off the edge the worms vanish completely just a lil GodTip
Does it have to be dwarf or can dark iron dwarf get vers buff as well
I believe it has to be a regular dwarf, but I have not tested if Dark Iron works myself.
HiTactyks, what’s the best tank trinket at the moment?
If you're a spec that like's haste it's the Ara-Kara Sacbrood for sure, that one is significantly better than pretty much any other option atm.
@@Tactyks I am blood DK, not very much needs on haste, what should I aim?
@@LCHEN0321 For BDK there are a few trinkets that are all pretty solid options. Sacbrood is still very solid because it gives a lot of primary, but you can also target the Meathook from necrotic wake or Orator's Larynx from City of Threads. From raid there are also a couple solid options with no hard BiS, namely the Arsenal trinket from Sikran, the Corrosive Organ from Rasha'nan, or Mad Queen's Mandate from Ansurek.
@@Tactyks thanks, 🙏
@@LCHEN0321 No problem!
No skips... proceeds to mention multiple skips in first dungeon...
I hope you post the dawnbreaker walkthrough first. As a tank I am so clueless where to land, the minimap is not helpful, can't see anything while skyriding, and people expect you to land perfectly and do perfect pulls on day 1...
Haven't RNG'd into a +10 dawnbreaker yet, but once I do it will be posted ASAP!
WHY NO KIRY SUMMON> IN NECRO?
If you're referring to the Kyrian orbs, they've been removed in this version of the dungeon, some of the weapons are still there though.
Tactyks said if i follow this guide i would get title
Amen
I just found out that this is a thing for mythic+ now, i havent played wow in many years and its insane that people use these kinda addons and routes now and its expected. It makes me not want to play mythic+. Because there is just no way in hell i am going to memorize all these pulls LOL, are you kidding, i cant believe this stuff is required to simply make the runs.
It's not unless you are pushing the really high keys
@@MrMonoposon But blizzard have removed lower keys, the keys now start at +10 in dragon flight equivalent "In Season 1, Mythic dungeons in WoW are getting a big revamp. They’ll now feel like the old +10 levels", so all keys are high keys.
@@trancer03 If it means anything they’re not timed and don’t affect score, no mob count needed, and can pretty much be done in heroic dungeon gear even if it’s rather slow with it not upgraded at all. And provide great loot without the added stress and no need to grind to +10 with the stress of timing all the way up to it.
You don‘t there are more then enough tanks who just do whatever the fuck. And there are other possible routes. Just don‘t pull to much at on once and too much above 100%
The dawn breaker map looks nothing like the in game map
It's definitely a bit confusing!
Yea, I would never ever recommend pulling 7 blight bags in the first pack in NW for pugs. Even lust won't help your healer with 7 x AOE burst going out instantly....
Die and rez skips are questionable due to significant time penalty
Yup death skips above the +7 key level are significantly more punishing on your timer now, which is why I didn't include any in the routes.
I think it was a good choice
Like normal, doing God's work out here.
Just happy to help!
Your quick mouseover circles are dizzying.
It's ok to slow down a bit in both explanation and detail. :)
I’ve never understood the design philosophy of the intro to Mists. Why even have that mob there if it isn’t needed for percentage and is almost always skipped? That’s just completely unintuitive and unnecessary.
The pathing isnt even the problem. Its just that pugs are for the most part idiots. I havent timed a single +3 this week due to people not following mechanics and its just too much of a waste of time. I dont have friends that play wow and my guild is one of those chill ones since we only have a couple hours a day to play.
If you have to use invis pot it's trash route. These are +20 routes not for casual players who just wanna do +10 forever
Like I said in the video, you don't have to use invis in any route and can opt to W key if prefered, plus only a single route even has invis pots as a recommendation. If you think these routes are crazy, wait til you see actual "+20 routes" hahaha.
i like your routes and appreciate your content, but saying pug friendly and then putting invis skips is just disingenuous. Half of the people dont bring pots, and even if you do skip without wasting 15 secs trading consumables, people then have trouble comming back to the group after dying. Each season i take your routes i have to switch some pulls around to compensate for this unreasonable requirement. Unless this is meant to be only for +12 onwards keys then sure
Like I said in the video, there is 1 singular invis skip in all 8 routes, and if you really don't want to do that you can just W key. Siege is just kind of weird after the count adjustments they made where you're forced to get 110%+ count by walking through it, and I guarantee that pull will farm more pug groups this season than the 15s it takes to trade a potion, particularly early in the season. Not to mention a graveyard unlocks shortly after.
Also as I discuss in the video, these routes are meant to be tailored to your group, so if you want to do things like bigger pulls, smaller pulls, or not do some of the non-invis skips then you can, this just helps to give people an idea of what a simpler route would look like to start from.
I think you are misusing disingenuous
i predict people will get destroyed by simple wasd mechanics of that boss for the entire first week, and then we'll have to clear the pack anyways. But sure ur right with this forced 110% adjusting is very easy
Ask pugs before they join if they have invis pots & know the skip. If they don’t, you dodged that bullet, & instead invite someone capable of performing the most basic aspect of keys 👍
Oh good you finally learned how to run mists of Tirna Scithe. Hopefully my notes helped bc ur video was lackluster at best. Unsure why you say skip the first pack of stag horn but then include insane packs with like 6 enemies at once. The stag horns are not difficult to kill, only time consuming and they are ONLY time consuming if you don’t interrupt them. Interrupt them and you will be fine. Once you kilt the 2nd boss the rest of the dungeon is a cakewalk but you can easily die to being stupid so, don’t be stupid. Don’t fall off, don’t get punted off, watch your feet and try to hug left so you don’t aggro reavers early. I’m not a fan of the extra maze pull as it takes time to do it correctly. Time that most people will not have and will not understand. Just do the extra pack of bugs after he last boss, they are quite literally the easiest trash piles in the dungeon. They only get hectic when you try to tank 15 of them at once. Which many folks mistakingly did in shadowlands. I did this dungeon hundreds of times. Over 300 attempts. I’ve seen all possibilities of how mists can be done and not done. You are not focusing on the maze enough which is generally the time killer for most groups. It is imperative to have a WA or add on and to pre assign a ranged member (healer or dps) observe each symbol so you can go thru the maze as fast as possible. The second boss is a pain in the ass if you don’t take care of the adds! I will repeat! The fox always takes priority!!!
Who are you?
Not one of these videos even attempts to take a stab at the affixes and how they work. Blizzard has released conflicting information and I’m trying to figure out are we still getting the shitty affixes like reckless and thorned? We are for sure getting the xalatath affix. And fort / tyran but it’s unclear if the other two are new / old. Wowhead is saying the third affix is up in the air, either being the new set of affixes or the revised new list of Bolstering, etc. they are saying the fourth affix is another tyran / fort but the opposite one you got at lower key. I want to know who has the most accurate information on this. Have they not released this info yet and we will discover the answer later today / this week? Please let me know
This image gives the main gist of it:
d2ertrwg9e34np.cloudfront.net/original/1X/7b12ea4894e157c8235baa0d3099baf6df6f502d.jpeg
Xal'atath's Guile is 1 of 4 new affixes in Ascendant, Voidbound, Oblivion, and Devour which I already went over in my S1 video here: th-cam.com/video/jshop_bXXDw/w-d-xo.html
I've got even better routes for this season, with particular emphasis on PUGs, and especially if you're a tank or healer. Fair warning, routes involve some tactical skips. So... DO DELVES AND RAID. Pugging M+ this time around? Yeah, NOOOPE.
Biggest skip I've ever seen, huge tech!
@@Tactyks Here's to hoping for the best, but PUG life in general happens at a level of skill that just doesn't even compare to yours, and for the rest of us I fear it's gonna be hell. Thanks for your guides, you're one of two people, three at most, who give us a chance to play. There's you, there's Quazii, and I can't really think of a third. If you stop sharing this work, we stop playing this game. By 'we', I mean the many people like me, who might do KSM, but just don't have the hands required for something like, say, the Mage Tower. We're the majority, unfortunately.
@@mothman84 Always happy to help my friend, I know the PUG life can be very tough, especially early in the season. Good luck with M+ launch, hopefully it's not as bad as you fear!
Blizzards dungeons are just really poorly designed.
They create these pointless confusing raid like dungeons that just don't need to be that way.
there should only be one path, one way, enemies always blocking the way and you are forced to fight them.
Not have people wonder around and wonder who to pull, where, and when and where the hell to go.
It's stupid, it's pointless. because once people learn it, it's frivolous regardless.
It serves no purpose, and is just annoying and creates a much higher unnecessary point of entry in terms of difficulty for NO reason.
Cant pug a single mythic
make your own groups.
They are definitely a bit more of a challenge than normal, though it's good to remember with the keystone changes a m0 is equivalent to an old +10!
Got better gear now.. Its all good.. Thanks