Are Laminate Body Guitars Bad?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ส.ค. 2024
- In this video I explain the various ways guitar makers use laminated, layered and real wood veneer and what to look out for when buying a laminated guitar. I also show you how to tell whether you have a laminate body guitar.
In general, laminated guitars are not bad, but you should ascertain the core materials of the guitar to ensure you know what you're buying.
Guitars featured in this video include:
- Taylor GS Mini (solid spruce top with a layered Sapele and what I think is poplar core back and sides)
- Yamaha FG335a (all laminate body, with laminate spruce top and mahogany back and sides, likley has laminated birch core)
- Martin 00016 cutaway with solid spurce top and solid mahogany back sides, micarta bridge and fingerboard.
A double layer around the soundhole does not really indicate a laminated top. Like me, many other makers use a soundhole reinforcement donut to support the underside of the rosette inlay, while the rest of the soundboard is a “solid” spruce plate that has been joined at the center with a book matched plate. A laminated, or layered set of sides will also produce really stiff sides that allow the soundboard to have a solid base on which to vibrate against. The practice of laminating the back (or sides) dates back to Rene Lacote in the 19th century so it is not a not a mid 1960’s invention, nor is it indicative of a cheaply made instrument. Yes, some factory made guitars leverage cheaper materials and fast and easy processes to quickly turn out product, but that is a very different production reason than the usage of laminated materials for the production of a higher quality instrument, both in repeatability and high quality shape definition. Food for thought, the volume and tonal quality of a well crafted double top guitar is fantastic when compared to a traditional single layer top, and some performers will prefer this arrangement due to the lower mass of the top, instrument volume, etc. So it is technically incorrect to say that a layered or composite top will produce inferior tonal results. That all said, laminations are not just about saving money during manufacturing. For the independent classical and acoustic guitar maker, producing a well made laminated guitar (back and sides - double top), it is far costlier and labor intensive than producing a “solid” wood instrument and there are very intentional reasons for us to manufacture in this fashion.
I agree. I use a thin(about 2mm) donut between the tone bars to reinforce the rosette though I have often wondered if it’s really necessary given the rosette itself is fairly sturdy. I’ve always reckoned the use with possibly avoiding deformation of the area since the rosette is likely unstable since it’s end grain. Even the tone bars might be enough though not sure so I keep using the donut. Additionally, my sides are double plate but the backs are solid. I, like most other builders, use a thin bridge reinforcement as well since my tops(solid) are a little thicker than 2mm in the center and thin out to about 1.6mm at the perimeter. My tops are a little thicker above the lower tone bar since the upper top doesn’t bring much to the table. I have played a couple double tops and the builders achieved very impressive results. I’m a traditionalist so I stick to plain old solid tops. I only build classical guitars for context.
Edit: I should have mentioned that my donut ID is typically a few millimeters larger that the sound hole to help make it invisible.
Thanks so much for a thoughtful and elucidating comment. When making this video I was thinking about people who were buying low to mid priced guitars. I Have a couple of premium guitars with binding on the sound hole. I wanted to mention it but figured that most low-mid end mass produced guitars might not have that feature. Also you’re absolutely right about veneers being used for centuries. I was thinking in the frame of mass produced US style guitars, so completely missed the points you made!! Thanks for taking the time to comment and thanks for watching mate!!
I have a 1991 Gibson es-775, just like the es-175 it is laminate. It’s a wonderful sounding guitar that just has gotten better over time.
Yeah I’m not sure about hollow bodies, but imagine as the wood dries out and is consistently resonated, it develops like a fine wine.
I really enjoyed your video. My acoustic guitars are all solid top with laminate or layered back and sides. For me, my Yamaha LL6M A.R.E., LS6, and FG830 sound quite good. I have some Alvarez Guitars that have solid tops. Yamaha and Alvarez use high grade laminates.
Glad you enjoyed the video. The Yamaha in the video is one of my favourite guitars. I didn’t say that but it’s really warm and fun to play and has held up well over 43 years!! Thanks for watching and sharing your thoughts 😊
I bought a Taylor 110e , made in Mexico ... layered back and sides... it sounds better then $4,000 Martins
Great example of following your ears! Thanks for watching and taking the time to comment
@@sonusaurelius6576 Thank You
Bought the same, after trying several others out absolutely love the sound and the neck is basically Les Paul scale fun, pretty sounding articulate guitar.
Very enjoyable and instructive video! Thank you
Glad you found it useful! Thanks for watching and taking the time to comment
I've once played more than 100 acoustics of at least 20 models in the
Great points - thanks so much for sharing your perspective!!
I had an old Yamaha FG, I think it was a 340. Basically it was a copy of a Martin Dreadnought. I had the chance to play the real Martin and the Martin was so much better. Even so the Yamaha sounded decent and was loud enough for busking and was virtually indestructible. However it hurt my fingers so bad that the skin would separate from my nails and I had such thick callouses that the skin would peel off over time. Ah, the good old days, LOL
I've upgraded considerably since then but if I was still busking I think I'd take something like GS Mini with me rather than a high priced solid wood guitar. Laminate bodies with solid tops sound absolutely fine in my opinion as long as it's a well made instrument.
Completely agree! Thanks for watching mate
I was just given an old FG-180 which fits your description. Actually have nylon strings on it right now, but am about to change to steel. Nylon feels great with it's big V-neck, but isn't too resonate.
I love that FG. I’m not familiar with newer ones but I’d say these are underrated.
Sigma can call it whatever they want, as can Taylor, but in industry terms "laminate" is simply a universal term for non-solid wood. So you were correct to call Sigma's laminates. But they are also correct to point out not all laminates are equal.
You talk about Taylor's "layered", it's an example of the best a builder can do with layered. It's 3-ply, which means the poplar core is going to thicker than a lot of other builders and they arch the back instead of brace it, which gives it a tonal advantage to other laminates. Even Taylor has said that their luthiers tried building a all-solid GS Mini and tonally it didn't sound any better. I believe it.
There was a point, I think in the late 1980s when I heard Epiphone was using foam board for the middle layer of their laminates :/
Great points!!
You can usually spot if a guitar has laminate back by comparing the grain pattern (or type of wood) that you see through the sound hole with that when looking at the back. It's possible to spend allot of money on a high quality handmade guitar that will have laminate sides and/or back.
Good points! Thanks for watching mate!
I own a Yamaha G-55 classical from new.
It is now a 50 year old guitar.
It has its own voice.
I’ve gigged it. Jammed it. I’ve recorded. I’ve written songs on it….still love it.
I also have some very tasty (and expensive) guitars both acoustic and electric.
It’s been said, over a lifetime of playing guitar, one tends to return to their first experience of playing... that being the tone (not necessarily playability).
Yeah I love my old guitars, despite their dull sound I feel connected to them and have grown to love their uniqueness.
That all depends on the sound you're looking for and the style(s) of music you perform.
I prefer a solid body dreadnaught sound. But I can pick up a laminated top guitar in a music store and, playing it, instantly be reminded of a song or two recorded with a similar sound. Usually, it's a Folk song.
The laminated top sound seems to be very popular these days, especially among buskers, solo acoustic performers, song writers, and folks with home studios.
That’s a good point! I failed to mention that laminated tops (in my experience) are warmer and complement the voice better. Thank for taking the time to comment!!
My two all solid wood acoustics are all that I play. My two laminate back and sides just don't compare, and it is a big difference. I need to try more laminated guitars to make a fair comparison but for now, all solid wood is all that I will play. What is the cost savings on laminate?
In Australia, solid wood guitars usually range from $1k>. Things are a getting more expensive generally so it’s hard to know what the savings are.
I too have an old Yamaha from the FG Series and it is a great sounding guitar. It sounds much better than an cheap Fender Dreadnaught i owned wich had an solid spruce top.
Yeah it’s a highly underrated guitar. Mine has a deep warm tone and is super fun to play. Thanks for watching mate!!
Glenn Frey’s personal Takamine dreadnought, heard by millions of fans in concert, had laminated rosewood back and sides. The Takamine Glenn Frey model has solid back and laminated sides.
Yeah there’s nothing wrong with laminating guitars!! Thanks for watching
There were laminated guitars since the baroque period. It was not considered low quality rather part of the artisano of the instrument. A thin veneer of beautiful wood on a solid plank of timber for the back and sides. They were all hand made back then so it wasn't saving much as to the construction.
You’re absolutely right. Thanks man! I realised after watching the video that my head was very much in the modern frame of thinking, so mass production and proliferation of US style guitars being made overseas. Veneers are common and not an indicator of inferior quality.
"Use your ears" - good advice; if you like the sound, that's it, whatever it's made from!
For me, it's crucial that the guitar plays in tune all the way up the neck - i.e. the intonation has to be good. It's no good having a nice sounding guitar that has sour notes on some areas of the fingerboard. Thankfully most modern guitars are OK in this respect.
I've been playing for over 50 years, and in that time I've played solid wood guitars that weren't good - dull sounding with no power or pleasing tone (even from famous USA makers, no names mentioned!) , but I've also played some excellent laminate guitars.
Interestingly, from what I've read over the years , most of the Selmer/Maccaferri guitars used by the famous jazz guitarist Django Reinhardt had laminate backs and rims. Also, classical guitar maker Jose Ramirez used laminate sides on his instruments.
Spot on!! Thanks for taking the time to leave a thoughtful comment!
I have a 1979 Yamaha FG 335 and a 1983 FG 335ii. Both of them are fantastic guitars! They seem to be indestructible! I assume they are both all laminate, but not really sure.
Haha! Yeah mine has survived a lot.
Pretty sure most solid-back guitars have backs that are made in two (generally book-matched) halves, with a thin strip of wood visible through the soundhole on the interior of the back glued over the center joint. No center strip indicates a laminated back.
Thanks for the tip!
Very cool and useful video ❤
Glad it was useful!! Thanks for watching 😊
I dont have any all solid guitars. I have one all laminate and the other two are solid top with laminate back and sides. I don't mind them at all. The taylor 214 i have is a real stunner in looks and tone. While its true that materials affect tone its wrong to assume that something that isnt solid wood is a bad affect. I like my all laminate guitars tone. Its not as lush but it has something to it.
totally agree! It's important to use your ears. thanks for watching and taking the time to comment!!
Driftwood guitars, probably among the highest end guitars on todays market, use laminate sides, and they do it for rigidity reasons. They wouldn't, if laminate wood would be this inherently bad. Granted, they don't exactly use cheap plywood from your local hardware store. Another expensive guitar that comes to mind, that's built from plywood are Gibson ES335 and similar guitars. One would think if you spend upwards of 3000.- for a guitar, it's built from solid woods. Unless of course laminated wood isn't per se a bad choice for guitars.
Agreed! It’s not a bad choice, you just have to know what’s in it, like I say toward the end. Guitars makers obscure the core materials often, which I think is the issue. Thanks for taking the time to comment mate!
Often with laminate backs you can pretty clearly see that the inside of the sound hole is not the same wood as the back veneer.
Good one thanks!!
Alvarez doesn't use cheap "white wood" like poplar, they use mahogany as the middle layer on their laminate backs and sides...even if the outer veneer is rosewood or any other "finish" wood. There isn't a big sacrifice in tone with those vs a solid wood back and sides.
Thanks for sharing! Another good example where a guitar maker is transparent about the core of their guitars. Good one!
Breedlove's Discovery Series guitars use a similar laminating method. I have one, a Concertina (basically a 00 or parlor guitar) with a solid western red cedar top and the back and sides made of laminated African mahogany. The "core" of the laminate is also mahogany. The cedar top gives it a very warm, sweet, slightly compressed tone and the mahogany lends a very stable, fundamental low-mid emphasis. I own several acoustics, and this little sub-$500 guitar is one of my favorites, especially for fingerstyle playing, and really any piece of music where you want the guitar to sound very melodic. It's not super loud, doesn't have a lot of bass (likely because of the smaller body size), but the tone is so musical, just enough top end sparkle. So yeah, not all laminates are created equal.
So true!!
My question regarding laminated guitar parts is whether the veneers are unidirectional or do they alternate grain direction? Alternating direction would make for a much stronger part but would have less capacity to resonate.
Yeah great question!!
You talked about grades of solid wood, some being more resonant than others... It seems there are infinite ways to construct a "laminate", (thin veneer on African mahogany core vs. HPL for instance) - are there any tonal differences among those constructions? This video makes it sound like there aren't...
Like the scale is "Not solid wood = equally worse than cheap solid wood", "cheap solid wood = better", and "best solid wood = best solid wood"
I mean... why would Taylor or Martin not just use HPL on every low end guitar instead of a veneer on solid core if there was no difference in tone?
Yeah good point. Could have explained that better. And as mentioned at the end. It’s important to use your ears.
If Sigma is so particular about the description of the back and sides, be so adamant then to fully disclose in marketing materials.
Exactly!!!
what isn't fully ethical is when they state: Spruce Top for laminates insinuating Solid Spruce Top
Yeah they should really call it whatever the core is made of and name the veneer.
Handle them with extreme care, very easily scratched!!
👍🏼
It is a laminate. Period. The quality can be high, but it is what it is.
This is true!
Laminated = Engineered = better than nature!
😂
Show and express the beauty of that Yamaha guitar. Get all those stickers off man.
I have thought about it, and I’m afraid the stickers tell a personal story so unfortunately the guitar has an extra layer of laminate!!
@@sonusaurelius6576 This reminds me of a story about rock guitar legend Alvin Lee and his trademark Gibson ES-335. It's the one with the 'ban the bomb' and other stickers on it. The guitar apparently went back to Gibson for repair work, and it was returned to him refinished - with the lacquer sprayed on over the stickers! It seems that Gibson didn't think to contact him before doing this. I don't know if the story's true - maybe someone can confirm the story?
OMG!! 😨 refinished over the stickers. Tbh sounds like a Gibson job. I’d be furious.
That gs mini is not rosewood. Its mahogany or (more likely) sapele veneer.
Maybe you shouldnt be lecturing on this stuff.
Thanks for picking that up. I haven’t researched that guitar since I bought it so took a guess in the moment, given I was talking about laminated guitars not reviewing GS mini.
Regardless, you’re right it probably is layered Sapele.
What else in the video did you find inaccurate?