I started archery a week ago and the store salesman who sold me my arrows told me as well that with traditional/recurve bows, it's best to use feathered arrows :) Nice to see you prove him right with this video :)
Would love to see you try the AAE trad vanes that are pitched as a vane designed for traditional bows and off the shelf/hand shooting. Also you may want to try a different glue.
I just realised, I have never shot an arrow with vanes. Any Archery at activity/ heritage centres, 'Have a Go', I've attended the arrows always had feathers & that's what I bought to practice at home. Now I know why. Also in the event I'd need to recycle arrows with vanes, you, Armin, have nicely demonstrated one method of removing said vanes. Lol!
I began shooting in 1955. I do believe it was before plastic vanes existed. I did begin using plastic vane arrows when bow fishing but as a deer hunter my arrows have feathers as do my target arrows. I would add that the feathers on all of my arrows are very similar. Some say that they are too small on my hunting arrows but I shoot inside the 10 ring with my broadheads @ 30 meters consistently so I always ask why? 😁 Have a great day Armin !
Great Video!! And part of the basics to getting started, I think. Please add to title something like "don't use plastic vanes." Also, as you know, can remove the plastic veins if that's all that someone new to off-center shooting has (if not shooting broadheads). Could mention this here. Thanks for all your superb, thorough videos!!
Yes, probably worth to mention that plastic vanes are great for olympic recurve style where the arrows are flying off a thin plastic or metal arrow rest. When shooting traditional bow off bow shelf or off hand no matter if Mediterranean or thumb release, you need feathers.
the only way to use vanes is on olympic archery with arrow rest. i tryed with my mornarq and i had the same problem and my thumb skin don't likes vanes neather .
What!?!? I started traditional thumb release archery at the start of the pandemic (Thanks to your videos!) and apparently made the mistake of buying arrows with vanes. This may explain a few issues I've never been able to resolve with my arrow flight. *facepalm* Thank God for 3 minute Fridays. How the hell have I managed to get ANY good groupings?
I'm not sure I understand your response. Trad vanes are not feathers. They are not hard vanes either. They are designed to be shot like feathers off the shelf of a bow. I may be mistaken but the bow being used appeared to have a small window cutout and therefore a shelf.
But the arrows with vanes generally are just a tiny bit more demanding or sensitive to mistakes when aiming at a certain spot on the target. And they 're also cheaper.
Thank you, Armin. You just prooved why I dislike plastic vanes from the beginning on. They simply don't work well for traditional archery and they are butt ugly😂 I happily leave them for the olympic archers 😅 3-minute-friday is great❤️
Why don't you buy the tubes and all pieces (nocks and tips) loose and assemble the arrows yourself? You win 70% of the price of an already made arrow by doing that and it's dead simple to do. I make my own wooden traditionnal arrows for 2.30€ a piece while if I buy an already made arrow of that style it costs me 6.5-7€.
Plastic vanes do work from my experience, but only with bows that have no arrow shelf, or a elevated rest. Only in that case its important to place the odd feather out. With all asiatic reflex bows the result would have been much better.
You must use an arrow rest when using plastic vanes. They are stiffer than feathers and cannot be shot off the shelf of a traditional bow. Feathers work with or without an arrow rest.
Feathers are just far more forgiving of all the little boo-boo's we make. With Vanes anything larger than 2-inches like NAP Quick-Spins are susceptible to riser strike and will be pushed out and away from the shelf like the 4-inch models you shot. But in a nutshell Feathers for off the shelf (bare-bow), Vanes for off an independent rest away from the shelf and riser.
Feathers have more give while passing though the arrow pass, and vanes hurt more than feathers if "you" use your hand/finger as an arrow rest (yes feathers can cut/saw into your hand/finger after multiple shots).
In traditional Turkish Archery, the cock feather is always up, but don't ask me why 🤷♂️ I've used carbon arrows with vanes before, but now I only use wooden arrows with feathers from Sarmat Archery.
Vanes makes only sense with an appropriate arrow rest ^^ for thumb release on my ottoman bow I only use feathers and on my barebow hunting bow (Hoyt super rest & plunger ) only light weight vanes :) So I'm absolutely with your conclusion
I started with longbows when I was a kid because my Dad was cheap and didn't want to pay for a compound bow for us kids as he could just make us selfbows for free more or less. We made our own arrows and we always used feathers. Usually turkey feathers that we split and sanded ourselves but I discovered goose feathers work even better as they are more water resistant. Fast forward to when I was in high school I bought my own compound and didn't know anything about shooting them so I shot off the shelf with no sights but used aluminum arrows instead of wood. Found out real quick that plastic veins doesn't work for that either and I didn't like using a compound because shooting multiple arrows was soooo sloooooooooowwwwww, and I hate that breakover feeling when you go from 80% of the draw weight to 30% or less so by the time I hit university I was back to hunting with a recurve or longbow. I had friends that still shot compounds and continue to do so and from what I have seen plastic veins only work well with very springy rests or rests that completely fall away. I suppose you could mount one of those on a center shot recurve with aluminum type riser but I have not tried it. My experience has been the same as what you showed in this video, for traditional bows veins simply don't work, feathers are a must. I still bare shaft tune my bows so I know exactly what arrow works on them best but then I fletch with feathers. I'm still using wood arrows all these later, someday I'll have to give carbon a try.
I've got both feathers and plastic , and shoot a Turkish and Mongolian bow these days, if we were really calling this traditional archery we wouldn't be using carbon arrows, I've been down that road with a 120lb Longbow many years ago, when the only option was hand crafted wooden arrows, they were expensive and easily broken. The vane material is irrelevant but feathers look cooler, some of my carbon arrows have a covering that makes them look like bamboo. Tbh, few shoot traditional material bows or arrows so what difference?
@@ArminHirmer at the ranges you and most people shoot Traditional bows, there would be little difference in using feathers or plastic vanes, people should try longer ranges, 75-100 yards, see how they effect their groups, same with arrow weight.
My first set of Arrows had vanes, they flew well enough for beginner arrows on a bow suited for beginners.(Samick Sage). When I moved onto Asiatic Bows and bought featherd arrows, things just seemed better. I tried those same vane arrows and like they are suppose to do, they flew and hit the target, but they didn't feel right. Feathers just feel better. Even when I used my feathered arrows with the Samick(I go back to it every now and then), they feel better. Feathers > cheap vanes.
My first arrows were vaned and my first bow was a a takedown bow (samick, but not a sage tho) Shooting off an arrow rest, center shot. I never had any issue with vanes. Then I ordered a tradbow (and upfront guessed that id probably need feathers) And well I shot my vaned arrows, the vanes never came off, but yeap it bounces the vane upon passing the handle and send you arrows wobbling all over. They're fine with centered arrow rests tho, they really had no issue there. (Besides being ugly)
Feathers have ruled the air forever! On Compound they sound like der Metzgervogel. I hope You stay on the Fort, can't imagine You leaving. Beauty Armin, them plastic things had no chance an You Knew it,, Oh YeahHH!
I don't think that this test was necessary. Vanes are meant to be shot off the rest. Period. As it happens, I'm currently using both types of arrows from my 70" Ragim Matrix wooden recurve with the self adhesive cheap plastic rest. The arrows with vanes almost don't require any maintenance and are far less prone to rain and damage. The feathered ones look nicer but at the end of the day at distances from 30-40m they both hit the gold.
I solved the issue of the odd feather: I use arrows with 4 feathers, so I don't have an odd feather anymore, they fly really great and are a little more forgiving (for me at least)! xD
Yeah,I love four feathers also,I just like a quiver bristling with feathers. Don’t know if I am more accurate but I feel that way and groups are tight.
2 don't stabilise them enough on short range target, and are way less firgiving. I mitigate the excess drag of 4 by using shorter ones and with lower profil. Currently I use 3~2,5" feather, my arrows are more accurate and faster than the previous with 3*4" feather
@@howlingwolf3333 2 fletched arrows work the EXACT same as 3 or 4 fletched. If u make the arrow incorrectly like I did with a 2 fletched. Gotta make sure both fletchings are from the same wing. My first 2 fletch was with a carbon arrow with one fletching on it so I put a random one on. It was the opposite wing. Didnt fly straight
Well thank you for doing this! I am surprised that Khatra did not improve vane flight. There must be some other magic at work with Khatra besides just getting the bow out of the way of the feather/arrow. They have these vanes called tradvanes that some swear by but others say don't do it. Without an elevated rest and a center shot bow.....VANES SUCK😀
Misleading. he is shooting off the shoulder when you should ONLY use feather. I came here because I have an arrow rest and I'm trying to decide on vanes vs. feathers.
Not misleading it’s the way I shoot and I think I explained that. If you are not sure check out the trad vanes. They are still plastic but very soft almost like feathers and they work pretty well
@@ArminHirmersimply put if you do not have an arrow rest mounted on your bow then you should never use solid vane arrows. It is misleading because someone who wants to shoot off the shoulder like you could watch this video and decide to buy solid vanes thereby turning their accuracy permanently.
@@ArminHirmer then you should clearly state that its not a choice when you're shooting off the shoulder and state that with a rest its up to the individual
I always thought vanes too rigid and unyielding in flight and required more forced concentration to get them where you want them to go,if indeed they go there.Anyway great three minutes,good to see I’m not alone in my dislike of them.
I still get my arrow to kick even if I’m using feather with the cock feather in instead of out. And yes veins are definitely no good for traditional archery.
Sometimes I really wonder who invented these things. Feathers were used in the medieval times and even before. Whoever uses some plastic vanes on the arrow is out of their mind.
God made it so we could get all we need from nature to make hunting equipment and anything else we needed to survive sometimes men make things that make it easier in one sense but have a cost to our environment
Thanks Armin.
I started archery a week ago and the store salesman who sold me my arrows told me as well that with traditional/recurve bows, it's best to use feathered arrows :) Nice to see you prove him right with this video :)
Always love when you put up a new video, your voice & style of speaking are so peaceful & kind (:
Would love to see you try the AAE trad vanes that are pitched as a vane designed for traditional bows and off the shelf/hand shooting. Also you may want to try a different glue.
Heard about them might get some
I had a horrible time learning with plastic vains. Stripped them off and added features. My archery has advanced an amazing amount.
I just realised, I have never shot an arrow with vanes. Any Archery at activity/ heritage centres, 'Have a Go', I've attended the arrows always had feathers & that's what I bought to practice at home. Now I know why.
Also in the event I'd need to recycle arrows with vanes, you, Armin, have nicely demonstrated one method of removing said vanes. Lol!
Ah thank you, I was wondering about this myself just recently.
I began shooting in 1955. I do believe it was before plastic vanes existed. I did begin using plastic vane arrows when bow fishing but as a deer hunter my arrows have feathers as do my target arrows. I would add that the feathers on all of my arrows are very similar. Some say that they are too small on my hunting arrows but I shoot inside the 10 ring with my broadheads @ 30 meters consistently so I always ask why? 😁 Have a great day Armin !
David, with your technique you could shoot bare shaft with excellent results!
thank you very useful. I started archery 3 months ago and wondering what type of arrows to buy.
What a way to spend your Friday,I'm jealous.👏🇮🇪
You converted me to that snake Rolland. For form working, it's fantastic! And during confinement, half of my neighbours have been shooting...Vanes!😀
Great Video!! And part of the basics to getting started, I think.
Please add to title something like "don't use plastic vanes."
Also, as you know, can remove the plastic veins if that's all that someone new to off-center shooting has (if not shooting broadheads). Could mention this here.
Thanks for all your superb, thorough videos!!
Yes, probably worth to mention that plastic vanes are great for olympic recurve style where the arrows are flying off a thin plastic or metal arrow rest. When shooting traditional bow off bow shelf or off hand no matter if Mediterranean or thumb release, you need feathers.
It’s in the title: traditional
@@ArminHirmer yes, you're right. I get always so excited when you post a video that I don't really read the title 😅.
the only way to use vanes is on olympic archery with arrow rest. i tryed with my mornarq and i had the same problem and my thumb skin don't likes vanes neather .
3:13 don’t use... in traditional archery. Modern arrows meant for modern bow. Does not mean vanes are totally useless 👌
all korean traditional archers use vaned arrows. ive used them and never got my hand in the way
Armin can you Show us how to feather Arrows properly?
Hi I think there is a ton of videos out there :) but maybe
I would LOVE to see this. Especially since after watching this video I'll be ripping the vanes off of my arrow shafts.
I figured the veins would do a little bit better than they did
What's your thoughts on shooting with vanes off the hand? Khatra or no Khatra?
What!?!? I started traditional thumb release archery at the start of the pandemic (Thanks to your videos!) and apparently made the mistake of buying arrows with vanes. This may explain a few issues I've never been able to resolve with my arrow flight. *facepalm* Thank God for 3 minute Fridays. How the hell have I managed to get ANY good groupings?
Get yourself a set of bamboo arrows with "turkey feathers" off Amazon. You won't regret it. I abused my first set but they just keep flying true.
@@brianborell4469 Ahhhh I was just sifting through amazon! That's sound advice I'll pick up a bundle
I found for my recurvebow feathers only.. vanes I believe were intended for compound bows 60 lb and above
You should have included Trad Vanes in your comparison. Hard plastic vanes bouncing off a shelf is no surprise.
So, feathers? Also where's the shelf?
I'm not sure I understand your response. Trad vanes are not feathers. They are not hard vanes either. They are designed to be shot like feathers off the shelf of a bow. I may be mistaken but the bow being used appeared to have a small window cutout and therefore a shelf.
Yes, and Yes!
Sir, what bow is that?
Also specs, solid glass, please?
But the arrows with vanes generally are just a tiny bit more demanding or sensitive to mistakes when aiming at a certain spot on the target. And they 're also cheaper.
Armin...whose thumb guard are you using at the moment??
Thank you, Armin. You just prooved why I dislike plastic vanes from the beginning on.
They simply don't work well for traditional archery and they are butt ugly😂
I happily leave them for the olympic archers 😅
3-minute-friday is great❤️
I get my arrows with plastic vanes as they are cheap enough, then I put real feathers on them as soon as the plastic ones are broken.
Why don't you buy the tubes and all pieces (nocks and tips) loose and assemble the arrows yourself? You win 70% of the price of an already made arrow by doing that and it's dead simple to do. I make my own wooden traditionnal arrows for 2.30€ a piece while if I buy an already made arrow of that style it costs me 6.5-7€.
Do you use super glue when you put feathers on?
@@aleksejjovanovic986 i also wanna know
@@TheLazyClips It probably is. Can`t hurt to put 2 small pieces of thin tape on each ends of feather to keep it in place.
Plastic vanes do work from my experience, but only with bows that have no arrow shelf, or a elevated rest. Only in that case its important to place the odd feather out. With all asiatic reflex bows the result would have been much better.
Of course that’s why the title traditional
You must use an arrow rest when using plastic vanes. They are stiffer than feathers and cannot be shot off the shelf of a traditional bow. Feathers work with or without an arrow rest.
Another great video!
Looking at a bunch of Korean traditional archery videos, I've notice they use plastic vanes quite often which I find slightly bizarre.
They use torque twist...
Now I have a good reason to shift to feathers instead of persisting on
using plastic vanes.
Feathers are just far more forgiving of all the little boo-boo's we make. With Vanes anything larger than 2-inches like NAP Quick-Spins are susceptible to riser strike and will be pushed out and away from the shelf like the 4-inch models you shot. But in a nutshell Feathers for off the shelf (bare-bow), Vanes for off an independent rest away from the shelf and riser.
Feathers have more give while passing though the arrow pass, and vanes hurt more than feathers if "you" use your hand/finger as an arrow rest (yes feathers can cut/saw into your hand/finger after multiple shots).
In traditional Turkish Archery, the cock feather is always up, but don't ask me why 🤷♂️
I've used carbon arrows with vanes before, but now I only use wooden arrows with feathers from Sarmat Archery.
Up means the others will always be in the same angle to the bow no matter what
Exactly! Always use feathers with traditional bows. Plastic vains are designed for compound bows.
Vanes makes only sense with an appropriate arrow rest ^^ for thumb release on my ottoman bow I only use feathers and on my barebow hunting bow (Hoyt super rest & plunger ) only light weight vanes :) So I'm absolutely with your conclusion
I started with longbows when I was a kid because my Dad was cheap and didn't want to pay for a compound bow for us kids as he could just make us selfbows for free more or less. We made our own arrows and we always used feathers. Usually turkey feathers that we split and sanded ourselves but I discovered goose feathers work even better as they are more water resistant. Fast forward to when I was in high school I bought my own compound and didn't know anything about shooting them so I shot off the shelf with no sights but used aluminum arrows instead of wood. Found out real quick that plastic veins doesn't work for that either and I didn't like using a compound because shooting multiple arrows was soooo sloooooooooowwwwww, and I hate that breakover feeling when you go from 80% of the draw weight to 30% or less so by the time I hit university I was back to hunting with a recurve or longbow. I had friends that still shot compounds and continue to do so and from what I have seen plastic veins only work well with very springy rests or rests that completely fall away. I suppose you could mount one of those on a center shot recurve with aluminum type riser but I have not tried it. My experience has been the same as what you showed in this video, for traditional bows veins simply don't work, feathers are a must. I still bare shaft tune my bows so I know exactly what arrow works on them best but then I fletch with feathers. I'm still using wood arrows all these later, someday I'll have to give carbon a try.
I've got both feathers and plastic , and shoot a Turkish and Mongolian bow these days, if we were really calling this traditional archery we wouldn't be using carbon arrows, I've been down that road with a 120lb Longbow many years ago, when the only option was hand crafted wooden arrows, they were expensive and easily broken. The vane material is irrelevant but feathers look cooler, some of my carbon arrows have a covering that makes them look like bamboo. Tbh, few shoot traditional material bows or arrows so what difference?
Traditional in regards of bow shelf, arrow rest... was not clear maybe
@@ArminHirmer at the ranges you and most people shoot Traditional bows, there would be little difference in using feathers or plastic vanes, people should try longer ranges, 75-100 yards, see how they effect their groups, same with arrow weight.
My first set of Arrows had vanes, they flew well enough for beginner arrows on a bow suited for beginners.(Samick Sage). When I moved onto Asiatic Bows and bought featherd arrows, things just seemed better. I tried those same vane arrows and like they are suppose to do, they flew and hit the target, but they didn't feel right. Feathers just feel better. Even when I used my feathered arrows with the Samick(I go back to it every now and then), they feel better. Feathers > cheap vanes.
My first arrows were vaned and my first bow was a a takedown bow (samick, but not a sage tho)
Shooting off an arrow rest, center shot.
I never had any issue with vanes.
Then I ordered a tradbow (and upfront guessed that id probably need feathers)
And well I shot my vaned arrows, the vanes never came off, but yeap it bounces the vane upon passing the handle and send you arrows wobbling all over.
They're fine with centered arrow rests tho, they really had no issue there. (Besides being ugly)
Feathers have ruled the air forever!
On Compound they sound like der Metzgervogel.
I hope You stay on the Fort, can't imagine You leaving.
Beauty Armin, them plastic things had no chance an You Knew it,, Oh YeahHH!
What weighs the most? A Kilogram of Vanes or a Kilogram of Feathers?
A kilogram of vanes. Because not only do you have a kilogram of anything, you also have to carry around the weight of how you disappointed poor Armin
@@madamedent 😁🤣
I don't think that this test was necessary. Vanes are meant to be shot off the rest. Period. As it happens, I'm currently using both types of arrows from my 70" Ragim Matrix wooden recurve with the self adhesive cheap plastic rest. The arrows with vanes almost don't require any maintenance and are far less prone to rain and damage. The feathered ones look nicer but at the end of the day at distances from 30-40m they both hit the gold.
Get an arrow rest and you can use plastic vanes on a traditional bow.
I solved the issue of the odd feather: I use arrows with 4 feathers, so I don't have an odd feather anymore, they fly really great and are a little more forgiving (for me at least)! xD
Yeah,I love four feathers also,I just like a quiver bristling with feathers. Don’t know if I am more accurate but I feel that way and groups are tight.
Use 2 fletched arrows. They're faster then 4 fletched. 4 fletchings slows down the arrow a tad
2 don't stabilise them enough on short range target, and are way less firgiving. I mitigate the excess drag of 4 by using shorter ones and with lower profil. Currently I use 3~2,5" feather, my arrows are more accurate and faster than the previous with 3*4" feather
@@howlingwolf3333 2 fletched arrows work the EXACT same as 3 or 4 fletched. If u make the arrow incorrectly like I did with a 2 fletched. Gotta make sure both fletchings are from the same wing. My first 2 fletch was with a carbon arrow with one fletching on it so I put a random one on. It was the opposite wing. Didnt fly straight
same, i shoot 4 feather so i dont have look at nock, just put on string, handy when hunting and i also find way way more forgiving
Well thank you for doing this! I am surprised that Khatra did not improve vane flight. There must be some other magic at work with Khatra besides just getting the bow out of the way of the feather/arrow. They have these vanes called tradvanes that some swear by but others say don't do it. Without an elevated rest and a center shot bow.....VANES SUCK😀
I don't use vanes on my centershot recurves... I just don't like them
Thanks,I like feathers.
Misleading. he is shooting off the shoulder when you should ONLY use feather. I came here because I have an arrow rest and I'm trying to decide on vanes vs. feathers.
Not misleading it’s the way I shoot and I think I explained that. If you are not sure check out the trad vanes. They are still plastic but very soft almost like feathers and they work pretty well
@@ArminHirmersimply put if you do not have an arrow rest mounted on your bow then you should never use solid vane arrows. It is misleading because someone who wants to shoot off the shoulder like you could watch this video and decide to buy solid vanes thereby turning their accuracy permanently.
@@Miller0067 many do, thats why I made this video
@@ArminHirmer then you should clearly state that its not a choice when you're shooting off the shoulder and state that with a rest its up to the individual
So no difference at all? :P
I would never think of using vanes. Won't be an arrow without feathers!
I always thought vanes too rigid and unyielding in flight and required more forced concentration to get them where you want them to go,if indeed they go there.Anyway great three minutes,good to see I’m not alone in my dislike of them.
TMF Returns - Love it - hahahahahahaha
I still get my arrow to kick even if I’m using feather with the cock feather in instead of out. And yes veins are definitely no good for traditional archery.
FEATHERS!!!!👍🇨🇦😎🏹
Sometimes I really wonder who invented these things. Feathers were used in the medieval times and even before. Whoever uses some plastic vanes on the arrow is out of their mind.
Vanes vs. Feathers? Ducktape ;)
:D
Pretty sure vanes are for rests
For the training wheels lol
feathers.
God made it so we could get all we need from nature to make hunting equipment and anything else we needed to survive sometimes men make things that make it easier in one sense but have a cost to our environment
Lol..lol...LOL!!!!
plastic vanes = "compoundism"