A good video. I supervised a telephone exchange install at Mt Cook here in NZ. An area very prone to super electrical storms hence using the latest technology to protect the switch and outside plant. Four months later, switch and all outside plant destroyed by a direct hit. Total cost of original project $NZ400K, replacement cost $NZ 500K. Very expensive learning experience. There is NO protection against lightening.
I managed the network for AT&T for 20 years and my experience is the same as yours. A direct lightning hit is going to run every piece of grounded equipment in the office to some degree. We can and should try to do our best for safety sake but a direct hit is going to toast some equipment.
I am currently studying for the UK Foundation licence - at the very start of my ham journey. This video has saved me a lot of sleepless nights wondering how I am going to earth my rig from the third floor flat where we live. Thanks Peter!
Thanks for this I am just moving the shack indoors from my outside workshop so I can opererate over winter in a bit more comfort. I was scratching my head wondering how to earth it. Makes a lot of sense. Looks like I dont need to drill any more holes through the wall after all.
Thank you Peter…I also viewed the k6 video. I experimented yesterday using an antenna analyzer (RigExpert Stick 500) on 40 and 20 meters just to verify if SWR, resistance or reactance changed with the station ground attached vs unattached. All remained constant…i.e. the station ground (8 ft copper rod with a seven foot #6 gauge wire) didn’t affect my station on those two bands…just had to prove it to myself👍
The better you understand Kirchhoff's circuit laws the less confusing the "grounding" of disparate electric power sources is. I recall installing ship to shore SSB systems on sail boats - fiberglass hulls, and using every metal thing on the vessel as a "ground". It turns out that including stanchions and railings (hand rails) is a bad idea and at the same time a way to demonstrate that a counterpoise can be as RF-hot as the antenna. The best solution was always to ensure all devices were bonded to battery negative and that automatically included every wetted thing on the "iron spinaker", prop shaft, and rudder, and to adhere 2" copper tape from stem to stern to properly "ground" the remote antenna tuner. The stanchions and railings were off limits.
Common mode currents were entering the house down the coax a while ago and turning my kettle on when I transmitted, one of them kettles with a useless digital display for various temperatures, when I was asked what power are you using on transmit I used to say 3100 watts sir!
Brilliant.That has answered many questions. I have passed my Foundation a few weeks ago and I am gradually setting up a station. I was wondering how to put the ground in and get it to a bedroom. Now I know. One less job many thanks.
Great video Peter! the mysterious and elusive "earth", took me years to get my head around it and restrict my efforts to things that were actually do-able! One aspect you only tangentially touched on, bonding equipment together. It made me think about those rigs that are 12V powered. Whether intended for vehicular or base operation, you can not assume the negative lead is connected to chassis and so you dont know for certain about its earthed status. Similarly, the power supplies for 12V rigs, again you cant assume the negative output is chassis or earthed. What anyone needs to do about these rigs and PSUs will be different depending on whether you are addressing RF grounding or power safety earthing. 73 de G0AFV
Thank you Peter I'm not a ham yet, hopefully soon I like 11m fellow Hams have said you need to ground your radio I have never understood what it dose, I understand the choke at each end of the coax makes sense thanks for clearing the earth rod situation
If only this come out last week when I was bannging a big copper spike into the garden and stripping the plastic off a roll of copper wire brading it to protect my new FT 991 A ? God I love this hobby :)
Thanks for doing this video. I was the one that requested it. It's such a confusing subject, not helping by most of the information being US based. I really appreciate you trying to clear things up.
I had a most unfortunate situation with a nearby lightning strike. My house is protected with lightning rods, but lightning struck somewhere very close by the building. The energy entered the neutral side of my house mains. The high voltage passed through an Astron power supply and melted the insulation on the transformer. The voltage then exited through the negative terminal of the Astron and went through the power cable to my Yaesu FTDX 3000. The 25 amp fuse on that negative line blew, but also the actual fuse holder melted. The voltage exited through the Yaesu, I don't know where exactly, but the radio ceased to function. Sent the radio in for repair, but every circuit card was bad - beyond economic repair. No voltage entered through the positive power feed nor through the antenna which I had neglected to disconnect. So now my procedure is to unplug the power supply and disconnect the antenna coax. This same lightning strike destroyed a second power supply and a APRS station in an entirely different location in my house - same scenario, the negative power lead directed energy to a 2 meter radio and TNC. The energy destroyed a computer monitor in yet a third location in my house. All in all a very expensive event. I would have had to had all this equipment unplugged from the mains to prevent this. 73, Mark Julicher WX3O PS, I really liked that FTDX 3000, but am consoling myself with an 899a.
Sounds like you are lucky the home was not damaged. BTW, this kind of event normally has some cover on your household contents insurance. We occasionally are asked by insurance Companies to quote for replacement radios.
Great video Peter - My station is in an upstairs room and since moving here I have used a heavy gauge wire down to an earth rod and radial system. I have now ditched this (following watching this video) and all is well and, the noise level has dropped !!
Very informative and timely video - at least for me - since I'm installing a new EFHW antenna for 40m through 10m here at my QTH. I also saw the ARRL video presentation of K6WX and I think your video helps clarify things even better. Thanks a bunnch Peter! David, K7KDE
I did just what you said years ago when I was working on my General and CW (when the US license required 13 wpm). My shack was on the 2nd floor. I had ran a ground wire up from a ground rod but still wasn't enough. I would get a rf shock off the key. Boy did that bite hurt! I put quarter wave lengths of wire off the ground lug of my MFJ manual tuner and ran them under the baseboard around the shack. Did the trick. No more "shocks"! Robert KD4YDC
This has been one of your best videos to date, you have opened a can of worms though, after all if you get a transceiver, that is connected to a tuner and a linear and a SWR meter, then all the outer wire of the coax is basically earthing out each of the units, add earthing of all of 5he units as well and you can get earth loops which can be pretty deadly, AntenneX has published articles on this a lot, An Artificial Ground like the one that MFJ used to make is perfect for sorting out bad earths in the shack. Thanks Peter.
Another good video. Ground is so misunderstood! I did use a ground rod on my radio at 14 years old! However the ground was half my antenna! Except for that instance no “RF ground” is necessary! My radio is “ grounded for AC “ as is most equipment connected to commercial mains. That’s the green wire back to the power panel. The white wire is also connected to ground at the panel. However those are not RF grounds. I remember the old saying “ current always returns to the source”. So whatever comes out of the center of the SO 239 on a transmitter must return to the radio chassis. It does not have any need to go to ground. It wants to return to the source. In the case of my first end fed wire, the return to the source was through the ground to the ground rod and up the ground wire to the chassis! So an attempt at a good “ RF ground” only needs to be made with certain antennas that need it for a return path to the source. My inverted L needs a return path. Sometimes I let it be a ground rod at the base of the antenna. It works pretty well some places. However a system of radials does better. However that “ ground “ could cause issues with lightning, because it connects to the chassis of the radio via the coax shield. I make sure that connection is broken when not on 160 meters! I also remove and roll up the coax feedline to the inverted L in the summer as I do not operate 160 in the summer! Hopefully some of us will get the message out to those who need it. There are so many manufacturers manuals that show a ground for the radio it’s almost impossible to explain it’s just plain wrong. Keep up the good work . 73, N4DJ
I've gotten into quite a few ballyhoos over this topic. I watched Kristi's video and I concur with most of what she (and you) said. My position boils down to the fact there really is no such thing as an RF ground. Because of lightning risks, connecting gear to a wire that goes to a 6 ft copper rod in the ground actually is dangerous. It invites lightning straightway into the house! Some guys think that "RF grounding" is the solution to all types of RFI issues. Not so! The only thing that ever helped me with RFI were ferrite cores of the proper variety with the offending wires wrapped through and around them. Antennas certainly don't need to be grounded, as they are two symetrical halves (whether vertical or horizontal), and are always above ground. The big one guys like to fight about is lightning protection. I live in FL, the lightning capital of the world, and I always disconnected the coax cable from the window pass-through, without leaving a small gap for lightning to arc across. Unplugging the rig is also important. Guys insist that you MUST use a "lightning arrestor" connected to a window passthrough, with a ground rod pounded into the ground and tied to the mains......like the AM & FM broadcast stations do with their tall towers. The problem I have with this is: what if the ham shack is on the other side of the house from the mains? Well, the guys say, run copper braid from one rod to the mains rod. I disagree with this due to the potential between the two rods being different. They say this setup "saved their bacon" more than once in the event of a nearby strike. This method is questionable in my eyes....and probably not necessary as 1) we are not constantly transmitting - esp during a storm! Because these broadcast stations cannot shut down every time there is a storm, they MUST have these advanced methods, and 2) unplugging everything removes the electrical / physical connection between the potential lightning paths. Great video!
All good, Using a z match on your earth wire, taking measurements on a regular basis will indicate how much the earth changes, this technique is used by some portable ops to improve their transmissions. 73 de John G4YDM
As an audio comms engineer pre retirement Earth Loop ie multiple earth paths were a major issue. What was pushed at me when I started rf on retirement was allabout earthing so I did my ground rods and linking equpt. Following the dangers of remote earth on PMS Mains I have gone back to basics and only use earth for mains safety. Thanks for formalising this.
What I hear regularly is "I have high receive noise, a good earth will cure it". Yet, I have never seen any evidence for that. Most noise seems to be picked up by the aerial system. Earthing seems to have become a bit of a superstition. It's different in the southern USA where you need lightning protection.
Hello Peter - another really great and informative video. In Pat Hawkers book, Amateur Radio Techniques on page 296 there is a writeup on the Long Wire and the use of ¼ wave radials etc. My Shack is also upstairs and like you I don't have any RF Ground system and thank fully no RF issues. Great video Peter - 73 de Ger
I love the Magnetic Loop antenas' above ground potential :P ....and as for grounding on a multi-floor building... just build an artificial ground (just as MFJ-931 or MFJ-9231 "used to" make).
Great presentation. We rarely think of way ground wire in terms of wavelength and we should. Never thought of the 1/4 wave wire trick for RF in the shack. I wonder if that would help with other devices being effected by RF on wires like alarm systems and garage door openers. Might be worth an experiment. Here in the states, the National Electrical Code Requires any ground rod to be bonded to the rod at the point the electrical service enters the building. In the Motorola Standards and Guidelines for Communication Sites (R56) also requires the same bonding. Nothing in either mention RF as a reason. Here in the U.S. we use 60 Hertz for power and 1/4 wavelength (using the standard antenna formula) would be 776.5 miles long (!!) so the chance of of having a 1/4 wavelength ground wire for our AC power anywhere is pretty remote. But as you and K6WX state, at the upper frequencies we use, a 1/4 wave ground wire is not uncommon and with 10 meters and up, multiple 1/4 wavelengths may likely occur. And as lightning acts as a high frequency signal (essentially a pulse of energy with a very fast rise time, short duration and fast decay) it too may see our ground wire as a 1/4 wave (or odd multiple of) wire which could look like a high impedance and find a lower impedance path through our equipment.
Peter, this is excellent! I know many extra class hams (and a few engineers) who do not understand this concept, so thank you for discussing it. It is vital to understand as it is part of the very foundation of current flow in any circuit. Keep up the great work. 73 OM
TY Peter. im oldschool having all DC grounds down to 3 copper ground rods.. you dont mentiom dc grounding just RF and AC but ive understood your input,, ill leave my dc gnd in place becausemits very low noise since i fitted it..but ive learnt so much of RF earthing. cheers n ty for the heads up
Thanks Peter, this is all great information, well explained in concise language, I don't think there is much more to note on the subject for most of us, we can put it to rest.
Great video. I spent months after passing my foundation trying to figure out grounding my station. Hope new radio users find this video before they end up going down the rabbit hole.
Lightning is a concern for me. I intend to put a 2” copper pipe 6 meters below the ground into the water table, copper strap from the pipe to the point the coax enters the shack, with a surge protector. I’ll use the surge protector as a point to disconnect the coax between there and the radio, when not in use. Perhaps I should also disconnect the “ground” at the radio when not in use as well.
@@watersstanton Yes, but I'll be disconnecting my coax at the surge protector. So lightning would come down the DX Commander, down the coax (inside /outside) to the surge protector, that's bolted to the heavy copper strap (running outside of my steel shed shack), going to the earth pipe, and as long as I've disconnected the coax going into the shack at the surge protector, hopefully lightning will be directed away. Basically, I'll be using the surge protector as a point to disconnect my coax before it enters the shack.
Only thing a ground helps me with is when I listen to aircraft NDB transmitters....down below the MW.....I get a lot of crackle.....I wire for my IC-7300 ground wing nut to my house hearting rad gets rid id that crackle. Interesting video Peter....in the set up page for an old Yaesu radio I had.....it recommended NOT to daisy chain component's together
Well Peter...... I'm a new ham having passed my foundation end of may, and firstly I'd like to thank you for all the videos you have made and I hope you make many more. This one has left me totally bewildered. While I know that if you ask 100 hams something you may get 100 different opinions, this one has me. In my own case, having a 2nd floor shack, I decided to ground to an earth rod using rg58 with a capacitor on the far end as per one method I found. I haven't found any increased noise level. So now we have... No need to ground at all.... Dont use a long wire to earth as it acts as an antenna.... use a quarter wave as an earth along the floor (doesn't this act as an antenna?) make sure you bind your equipment together... don't bind your equipment together... I dont know whether to leave it as is, rip it out or what. Heaven help us all. (posted with appreciation as I do value your contributions) 73
Brilliant and informative vid. Quick question on radials… i have a dx commander and buried my radials, my about 4 inchs. Does burying radials have a negative impact on performance?
Thank you Peter. So many useful bits of advice. Like politics many people have entrenched views about earthing your shack. You will have got many thinking. Next one on RF earthing could you talk about the “artificial earth” Tnx Dave G4NOW Greenwich
Great video Peter, this is a subject I’ve looked for many times on TH-cam and never really found what I’ve been looking for, until now. Thanks very much for the time and effort you put into these videos. Andy…
I have found this rather interesting since this was to be tomorrow's project! But I still have a question, my glass fibre Moonraker vertical multiband is on a pole mounted to my garage, what are your recommendations?
Peter - we should not ignore the subject of mains earthing in our radio setup- especially when using verticals with buried radials - without isolation measures we are unintentionally creating an earth path for fault current to ground, on our household mains supply - this is a subject hardly or never touched on by the manufacturers of vertical antenna systems with buried radials and no pun intended has the “potential” to be very dangerous, especially if the mains supply earth is lost or if it has become high impedance - this is a slightly complex subject for me to go into here in a comment, but I would suggest that every amateur has a mains earth loop impedance check carried out by the supply authority to check the integrity of the mains supply earthing, before installing a vertical antenna system using ground based radials - Ian G4IKP..
XIEGU G90 ground wired to power supply ground which is house ac ground. Couldn't hear anyone without it. Also sunk an 8' copper ground for the static/ lightening arrester attached at the 9:1 unun via 9' #6 copper. See anything wrong with this ? KJ5GUN '73
To stop rf in the shack you deal with it at the antenna not within your shack Bonding equipment to a common shack busbar is essential to ensure all equipment is at the same potential Rsgb has good information on this
You can do nothing at the antenna as is is designed to radiate. Leads at the shack end are where filtering is needed. The ARRL view aligns with the fact that there is no proven ben3fit of bonding. so far as RF is concerned. AC hum loops are a different matter.
@@watersstantonbalance your antenna for a start , I follow the rsgb info for UK electrical systems not arrl that covers USA, check out their info on Bonding equipment also covered in our licence study books
AFAIK shack rods (if exist) in ground should be connected together and here even connected to AC ground system (but all these connections done in ground) to have the same voltage potential everywhere (in case of storm for example). Lightning protection system requiring (even more) grounding. Power supplies can have floating output - which means connected equipment won't be AC grounded. Which also means device chassis won't be connected together. These things can be very complicated.
@@garywatkins6800 near the antenna to stop common mode current using the coax as a path to equipment and to stop it messing up the radiation pattern of the antenna
A deceptively complex subject when you consider the safety, RF and to some extent lightning protection. I had one time did have bonding between various pieces of equipment but suspect it was largely a waste of time and certainly a nuisance if you are forever changing things. With the popular TNC-S wiring we use in the UK an antenna with a "ground" presents other problems.
@@Pioneer936 bonding equipment chassis to each other should do no harm, but it can also mask other faults. A while back I had a piece of equipment with an IEC mains lead that resulted in the chassis floating due to some clown lifting the ground wire off in the plug. (A common hack with some test equipment). Of course the radio issue was usually masked by peripheral equipment having grounds.
@@g0fvt nothing is perfect ,the rsgb clearly state its about minimising risk ,their info is very useful to stay safe and conform to the electrical regs
Peter, good video. There seems to be a big discussion about earthing and PME systems? What about being connected to PME mains system and installing a vertical antenna that has radials in the earth?
Your trusting your electrical to understand earthing, they should do after all, but having seen nearly 110 volts being read on the earth rod at a home due to some shoddy work by a so called electrical installation engineer.
I have been staring at them Earth conections for 40 yrs, now I know!
Thanks Peter.
Well done! Thank you Peter
Thanks Peter, I have been fretting over this very issue.
A good video. I supervised a telephone exchange install at Mt Cook here in NZ. An area very prone to super electrical storms hence using the latest technology to protect the switch and outside plant. Four months later, switch and all outside plant destroyed by a direct hit. Total cost of original project $NZ400K, replacement cost $NZ 500K. Very expensive learning experience. There is NO protection against lightening.
I managed the network for AT&T for 20 years and my experience is the same as yours. A direct lightning hit is going to run every piece of grounded equipment in the office to some degree. We can and should try to do our best for safety sake but a direct hit is going to toast some equipment.
I am currently studying for the UK Foundation licence - at the very start of my ham journey. This video has saved me a lot of sleepless nights wondering how I am going to earth my rig from the third floor flat where we live. Thanks Peter!
I'm so glad!
Thanks for this I am just moving the shack indoors from my outside workshop so I can opererate over winter in a bit more comfort. I was scratching my head wondering how to earth it. Makes a lot of sense. Looks like I dont need to drill any more holes through the wall after all.
Thank you Peter…I also viewed the k6 video. I experimented yesterday using an antenna analyzer (RigExpert Stick 500) on 40 and 20 meters just to verify if SWR, resistance or reactance changed with the station ground attached vs unattached. All remained constant…i.e. the station ground (8 ft copper rod with a seven foot #6 gauge wire) didn’t affect my station on those two bands…just had to prove it to myself👍
Thanks for sharing
Good stuff peter. More rot gets talked about "earth" than pretty much any other subject in amateur radio. Nice to hear some clarity
Another great video. Thank you, Peter.
The better you understand Kirchhoff's circuit laws the less confusing the "grounding" of disparate electric power sources is. I recall installing ship to shore SSB systems on sail boats - fiberglass hulls, and using every metal thing on the vessel as a "ground". It turns out that including stanchions and railings (hand rails) is a bad idea and at the same time a way to demonstrate that a counterpoise can be as RF-hot as the antenna. The best solution was always to ensure all devices were bonded to battery negative and that automatically included every wetted thing on the "iron spinaker", prop shaft, and rudder, and to adhere 2" copper tape from stem to stern to properly "ground" the remote antenna tuner. The stanchions and railings were off limits.
As ever, nice simple explanation. Ive read so much contradiction on this subject .
Glad it was helpful!
Common mode currents were entering the house down the coax a while ago and turning my kettle on when I transmitted, one of them kettles with a useless digital display for various temperatures, when I was asked what power are you using on transmit I used to say 3100 watts sir!
Thank you for your videos. Some folks seem to go a little wild with grounding.
Brilliant.That has answered many questions. I have passed my Foundation a few weeks ago and I am gradually setting up a station. I was wondering how to put the ground in and get it to a bedroom. Now I know. One less job many thanks.
Great video Peter! the mysterious and elusive "earth", took me years to get my head around it and restrict my efforts to things that were actually do-able! One aspect you only tangentially touched on, bonding equipment together. It made me think about those rigs that are 12V powered. Whether intended for vehicular or base operation, you can not assume the negative lead is connected to chassis and so you dont know for certain about its earthed status. Similarly, the power supplies for 12V rigs, again you cant assume the negative output is chassis or earthed. What anyone needs to do about these rigs and PSUs will be different depending on whether you are addressing RF grounding or power safety earthing.
73 de G0AFV
Thank you Peter I'm not a ham yet, hopefully soon I like 11m fellow Hams have said you need to ground your radio I have never understood what it dose, I understand the choke at each end of the coax makes sense thanks for clearing the earth rod situation
If only this come out last week when I was bannging a big copper spike into the garden and stripping the plastic off a roll of copper wire brading it to protect my new FT 991 A ? God I love this hobby :)
Better late than never. Sorry.
Great advice Peter! My shack is on the second floor of my home with wire antennas
That’s interesting how you cured the problem.Thanks.
@@watersstanton The ground plane idea came from the ARRL book "Grounding and Bonding for the Radio Amateur"
Thanks for doing this video. I was the one that requested it. It's such a confusing subject, not helping by most of the information being US based. I really appreciate you trying to clear things up.
Glad it was helpful!
Yep, earth's are much bigger in the USA!
Thank you, Peter.
I had a most unfortunate situation with a nearby lightning strike. My house is protected with lightning rods, but lightning struck somewhere very close by the building. The energy entered the neutral side of my house mains. The high voltage passed through an Astron power supply and melted the insulation on the transformer. The voltage then exited through the negative terminal of the Astron and went through the power cable to my Yaesu FTDX 3000. The 25 amp fuse on that negative line blew, but also the actual fuse holder melted. The voltage exited through the Yaesu, I don't know where exactly, but the radio ceased to function. Sent the radio in for repair, but every circuit card was bad - beyond economic repair. No voltage entered through the positive power feed nor through the antenna which I had neglected to disconnect. So now my procedure is to unplug the power supply and disconnect the antenna coax. This same lightning strike destroyed a second power supply and a APRS station in an entirely different location in my house - same scenario, the negative power lead directed energy to a 2 meter radio and TNC. The energy destroyed a computer monitor in yet a third location in my house. All in all a very expensive event. I would have had to had all this equipment unplugged from the mains to prevent this. 73, Mark Julicher WX3O PS, I really liked that FTDX 3000, but am consoling myself with an 899a.
Sounds like you are lucky the home was not damaged. BTW, this kind of event normally has some cover on your household contents insurance. We occasionally are asked by insurance Companies to quote for replacement radios.
Great video Peter - My station is in an upstairs room and since moving here I have used a heavy gauge wire down to an earth rod and radial system. I have now ditched this (following watching this video) and all is well and, the noise level has dropped !!
Very informative and timely video - at least for me - since I'm installing a new EFHW antenna for 40m through 10m here at my QTH. I also saw the ARRL video presentation of K6WX and I think your video helps clarify things even better. Thanks a bunnch Peter! David, K7KDE
Best of luck with the install David.
I did just what you said years ago when I was working on my General and CW (when the US license required 13 wpm). My shack was on the 2nd floor. I had ran a ground wire up from a ground rod but still wasn't enough. I would get a rf shock off the key. Boy did that bite hurt! I put quarter wave lengths of wire off the ground lug of my MFJ manual tuner and ran them under the baseboard around the shack. Did the trick. No more "shocks"! Robert KD4YDC
Yes RF burns are painful.
This has been one of your best videos to date, you have opened a can of worms though, after all if you get a transceiver, that is connected to a tuner and a linear and a SWR meter, then all the outer wire of the coax is basically earthing out each of the units, add earthing of all of 5he units as well and you can get earth loops which can be pretty deadly, AntenneX has published articles on this a lot, An Artificial Ground like the one that MFJ used to make is perfect for sorting out bad earths in the shack. Thanks Peter.
Yes the MFJ is a tuned version of the quarter wave wires I mentioned.
Another good video. Ground is so misunderstood! I did use a ground rod on my radio at 14 years old! However the ground was half my antenna! Except for that instance no “RF ground” is necessary! My radio is “ grounded for AC “ as is most equipment connected to commercial mains. That’s the green wire back to the power panel. The white wire is also connected to ground at the panel. However those are not RF grounds.
I remember the old saying “ current always returns to the source”. So whatever comes out of the center of the SO 239 on a transmitter must return to the radio chassis. It does not have any need to go to ground. It wants to return to the source.
In the case of my first end fed wire, the return to the source was through the ground to the ground rod and up the ground wire to the chassis! So an attempt at a good “ RF ground” only needs to be made with certain antennas that need it for a return path to the source. My inverted L needs a return path. Sometimes I let it be a ground rod at the base of the antenna. It works pretty well some places. However a system of radials does better. However that “ ground “ could cause issues with lightning, because it connects to the chassis of the radio via the coax shield. I make sure that connection is broken when not on 160 meters! I also remove and roll up the coax feedline to the inverted L in the summer as I do not operate 160 in the summer!
Hopefully some of us will get the message out to those who need it. There are so many manufacturers manuals that show a ground for the radio it’s almost impossible to explain it’s just plain wrong.
Keep up the good work .
73,
N4DJ
I've gotten into quite a few ballyhoos over this topic. I watched Kristi's video and I concur with most of what she (and you) said. My position boils down to the fact there really is no such thing as an RF ground. Because of lightning risks, connecting gear to a wire that goes to a 6 ft copper rod in the ground actually is dangerous. It invites lightning straightway into the house! Some guys think that "RF grounding" is the solution to all types of RFI issues. Not so! The only thing that ever helped me with RFI were ferrite cores of the proper variety with the offending wires wrapped through and around them. Antennas certainly don't need to be grounded, as they are two symetrical halves (whether vertical or horizontal), and are always above ground. The big one guys like to fight about is lightning protection. I live in FL, the lightning capital of the world, and I always disconnected the coax cable from the window pass-through, without leaving a small gap for lightning to arc across. Unplugging the rig is also important. Guys insist that you MUST use a "lightning arrestor" connected to a window passthrough, with a ground rod pounded into the ground and tied to the mains......like the AM & FM broadcast stations do with their tall towers. The problem I have with this is: what if the ham shack is on the other side of the house from the mains? Well, the guys say, run copper braid from one rod to the mains rod. I disagree with this due to the potential between the two rods being different. They say this setup "saved their bacon" more than once in the event of a nearby strike. This method is questionable in my eyes....and probably not necessary as 1) we are not constantly transmitting - esp during a storm! Because these broadcast stations cannot shut down every time there is a storm, they MUST have these advanced methods, and 2) unplugging everything removes the electrical / physical connection between the potential lightning paths. Great video!
All good, Using a z match on your earth wire, taking measurements on a regular basis will indicate how much the earth changes, this technique is used by some portable ops to improve their transmissions. 73 de John G4YDM
As an audio comms engineer pre retirement Earth Loop ie multiple earth paths were a major issue. What was pushed at me when I started rf on retirement was allabout earthing so I did my ground rods and linking equpt. Following the dangers of remote earth on PMS Mains I have gone back to basics and only use earth for mains safety. Thanks for formalising this.
I guess audio and studio operation is a different problem for RF with all those long mic lead.
I watched the full ARRL lecture on this when it was released. Very interesting.
Agreed.
What I hear regularly is "I have high receive noise, a good earth will cure it". Yet, I have never seen any evidence for that. Most noise seems to be picked up by the aerial system. Earthing seems to have become a bit of a superstition. It's different in the southern USA where you need lightning protection.
Agreed.
Well stated, as always, Mr. Waters! Thank you. AC5MF
wow thank you Peter ive listened to the lecture, shocker pun pun, once again thank you
You're very welcome
Hello Peter - another really great and informative video. In Pat Hawkers book, Amateur Radio Techniques on page 296 there is a writeup on the Long Wire and the use of ¼ wave radials etc.
My Shack is also upstairs and like you I don't have any RF Ground system and thank fully no RF issues.
Great video Peter - 73 de Ger
Thanks for the info!
I love the Magnetic Loop antenas' above ground potential :P ....and as for grounding on a multi-floor building... just build an artificial ground (just as MFJ-931 or MFJ-9231 "used to" make).
Great presentation. We rarely think of way ground wire in terms of wavelength and we should.
Never thought of the 1/4 wave wire trick for RF in the shack. I wonder if that would help with other devices being effected by RF on wires like alarm systems and garage door openers. Might be worth an experiment.
Here in the states, the National Electrical Code Requires any ground rod to be bonded to the rod at the point the electrical service enters the building. In the Motorola Standards and Guidelines for Communication Sites (R56) also requires the same bonding. Nothing in either mention RF as a reason. Here in the U.S. we use 60 Hertz for power and 1/4 wavelength (using the standard antenna formula) would be 776.5 miles long (!!) so the chance of of having a 1/4 wavelength ground wire for our AC power anywhere is pretty remote. But as you and K6WX state, at the upper frequencies we use, a 1/4 wave ground wire is not uncommon and with 10 meters and up, multiple 1/4 wavelengths may likely occur. And as lightning acts as a high frequency signal (essentially a pulse of energy with a very fast rise time, short duration and fast decay) it too may see our ground wire as a 1/4 wave (or odd multiple of) wire which could look like a high impedance and find a lower impedance path through our equipment.
Thanks for sharing that info.
Peter, this is excellent! I know many extra class hams (and a few engineers) who do not understand this concept, so thank you for discussing it. It is vital to understand as it is part of the very foundation of current flow in any circuit.
Keep up the great work. 73 OM
TY Peter. im oldschool having all DC grounds down to 3 copper ground rods.. you dont mentiom dc grounding just RF and AC but ive understood your input,, ill leave my dc gnd in place becausemits very low noise since i fitted it..but ive learnt so much of RF earthing. cheers n ty for the heads up
oh and i have rf chokes on every atu ..
Thanks Peter, this is all great information, well explained in concise language, I don't think there is much more to note on the subject for most of us, we can put it to rest.
Don't think it can on the back of this video but check out the rsgb video
Great work
Thank you so much 😀
Great video. I spent months after passing my foundation trying to figure out grounding my station.
Hope new radio users find this video before they end up going down the rabbit hole.
My I suggest reading rsgb info on this subject its more relevant with safety and legalities fir UK installations
Your suggestion of putting a length of wire connected to your ground terminal (your 20m example) - just pondering perhaps tuning that wire....
Lightning is a concern for me. I intend to put a 2” copper pipe 6 meters below the ground into the water table, copper strap from the pipe to the point the coax enters the shack, with a surge protector. I’ll use the surge protector as a point to disconnect the coax between there and the radio, when not in use. Perhaps I should also disconnect the “ground” at the radio when not in use as well.
There could be a problem as your coax strapped to the earth line will become a lightning. conductor.
@@watersstanton Yes, but I'll be disconnecting my coax at the surge protector. So lightning would come down the DX Commander, down the coax (inside /outside) to the surge protector, that's bolted to the heavy copper strap (running outside of my steel shed shack), going to the earth pipe, and as long as I've disconnected the coax going into the shack at the surge protector, hopefully lightning will be directed away. Basically, I'll be using the surge protector as a point to disconnect my coax before it enters the shack.
Top Class Video 👍 Scotland.
Only thing a ground helps me with is when I listen to aircraft NDB transmitters....down below the MW.....I get a lot of crackle.....I wire for my IC-7300 ground wing nut to my house hearting rad gets rid id that crackle.
Interesting video Peter....in the set up page for an old Yaesu radio I had.....it recommended NOT to daisy chain component's together
Interesting. Thanks
Well Peter......
I'm a new ham having passed my foundation end of may, and firstly I'd like to thank you for all the videos you have made and I hope you make many more.
This one has left me totally bewildered. While I know that if you ask 100 hams something you may get 100 different opinions, this one has me.
In my own case, having a 2nd floor shack, I decided to ground to an earth rod using rg58 with a capacitor on the far end as per one method I found. I haven't found any increased noise level.
So now we have...
No need to ground at all....
Dont use a long wire to earth as it acts as an antenna....
use a quarter wave as an earth along the floor (doesn't this act as an antenna?)
make sure you bind your equipment together...
don't bind your equipment together...
I dont know whether to leave it as is, rip it out or what.
Heaven help us all.
(posted with appreciation as I do value your contributions)
73
In simple terms, if you have not noticed a problem, do nothing!
RSGB have the answers to your questions, start by watching their video on Bonding equipment correctly together
@watersstanton that's bad advice, you may not notice a problem until there's an actual fault then it maybe too late
Brilliant and informative vid. Quick question on radials… i have a dx commander and buried my radials, my about 4 inchs. Does burying radials have a negative impact on performance?
No.
Thank you Peter. So many useful bits of advice. Like politics many people have entrenched views about earthing your shack. You will have got many thinking. Next one on RF earthing could you talk about the “artificial earth” Tnx Dave G4NOW Greenwich
Glad it was helpful!
The "ground is a myth" thing is goofy. Allowing your equipment to survive an enormous change in ground potential is quite important.
Radio theory is just a myth. I don't believe any of it. N9XR.
Great video Peter, this is a subject I’ve looked for many times on TH-cam and never really found what I’ve been looking for, until now.
Thanks very much for the time and effort you put into these videos.
Andy…
Glad it was helpful Andy.
thanks for the video , i guess the days of TVI are long gone
Yes, true
Always unplug every device going to the radio and accessories when there is a storm around. It pays to take no chances.
Yep.
I have found this rather interesting since this was to be tomorrow's project!
But I still have a question, my glass fibre Moonraker vertical multiband is on a pole mounted to my garage, what are your recommendations?
Earthing and grounding....sounds like a comedy duo lol
Nice one!
21:23 Customer calls to order a bit of wire.
When I was nine and building crystal sets I tried using a big plant pot full of mud from the garden as a portable earth. Sadly it didn't work.
You needed a bigger pot t filled with salt water!
Peter - we should not ignore the subject of mains earthing in our radio setup- especially when using verticals with buried radials - without isolation measures we are unintentionally creating an earth path for fault current to ground, on our household mains supply - this is a subject hardly or never touched on by the manufacturers of vertical antenna systems with buried radials and no pun intended has the “potential” to be very dangerous, especially if the mains supply earth is lost or if it has become high impedance - this is a slightly complex subject for me to go into here in a comment, but I would suggest that every amateur has a mains earth loop impedance check carried out by the supply authority to check the integrity of the mains supply earthing, before installing a vertical antenna system using ground based radials - Ian G4IKP..
Peter, thank you for all of your hard work. I love your “lessons”. Bob VE4RMC
Thanks Bob.
Peter,
Should I still ground my antenna mast through a rod sunk into the ground ?
Fabulous video Peter.
Lots of great info and dispelling so many myths.
73
G0HFL
XIEGU G90 ground wired to power supply ground which is house ac ground. Couldn't hear anyone without it. Also sunk an 8' copper ground for the static/ lightening arrester attached at the 9:1 unun via 9' #6 copper. See anything wrong with this ? KJ5GUN '73
Good job
To stop rf in the shack you deal with it at the antenna not within your shack
Bonding equipment to a common shack busbar is essential to ensure all equipment is at the same potential
Rsgb has good information on this
You can do nothing at the antenna as is is designed to radiate. Leads at the shack end are where filtering is needed. The ARRL view aligns with the fact that there is no proven ben3fit of bonding. so far as RF is concerned. AC hum loops are a different matter.
@@watersstantonbalance your antenna for a start ,
I follow the rsgb info for UK electrical systems not arrl that covers USA, check out their info on Bonding equipment also covered in our licence study books
AFAIK shack rods (if exist) in ground should be connected together and here even connected to AC ground system (but all these connections done in ground) to have the same voltage potential everywhere (in case of storm for example). Lightning protection system requiring (even more) grounding. Power supplies can have floating output - which means connected equipment won't be AC grounded. Which also means device chassis won't be connected together. These things can be very complicated.
AC is somewhat different, but a common RF zero ground cannot exist.
An artificial ground can help too
Yes MFJ made one.
Should the common mode choke be nearest the antenna or the equipment? Can I put one on each end? Any benifit to this? Thanks
In most cases, near the equipment.
@@garywatkins6800 near the antenna to stop common mode current using the coax as a path to equipment and to stop it messing up the radiation pattern of the antenna
A deceptively complex subject when you consider the safety, RF and to some extent lightning protection. I had one time did have bonding between various pieces of equipment but suspect it was largely a waste of time and certainly a nuisance if you are forever changing things. With the popular TNC-S wiring we use in the UK an antenna with a "ground" presents other problems.
Would it be a waste of time under fault conditions ? am sure ensuring equipment are at the same potential Would be of some purpose
@@Pioneer936 bonding equipment chassis to each other should do no harm, but it can also mask other faults. A while back I had a piece of equipment with an IEC mains lead that resulted in the chassis floating due to some clown lifting the ground wire off in the plug. (A common hack with some test equipment).
Of course the radio issue was usually masked by peripheral equipment having grounds.
@@g0fvt nothing is perfect ,the rsgb clearly state its about minimising risk ,their info is very useful to stay safe and conform to the electrical regs
@@Pioneer936 there are certainly a number of common mistakes that are potentially dangerous.
@g0fvt with the info available by rsgb I don't understand why
Good sensible information… as usual..
Peter, good video. There seems to be a big discussion about earthing and PME systems? What about being connected to PME mains system and installing a vertical antenna that has radials in the earth?
Sorry that is for an electrician. Radials just below ground are basically the same as on the ground.
If your antenna is connected to earth on a pme system it must be bonded back to your house earth system, see rsgb info
Your trusting your electrical to understand earthing, they should do after all, but having seen nearly 110 volts being read on the earth rod at a home due to some shoddy work by a so called electrical installation engineer.
Ham for 55 years, never grounded anything
Yep!
same here!
BAIDU
Very interesting,
Glad you enjoyed it