I was convinced by Jim's previous videos on this very subject. When lighting is in the area my coax goes outside regardless of the spark gap arrestor. I was about 8 years old during Hurricane Betsy, once the power was lost my Uncle turned off all outside breakers and removed the screw-in fuses on the inside panel. Perhaps hours later. Lighting hit the pole transformer on the street, which was grounded. It jumped the breakers, burnt up the well motor, and jumped the inside panel, and a light switch that was off in the room where we were sitting around the hurricane lamp. The bulb illuminated brightly and popped. Seems like there was other damage, but I can't remember. This Left a lasting impression on me. In hindsight, by then a lot of the power lines were down and the lighting was probably going for the 150 ft well. However, it also came inside the house as well. Respect, Mother Nature. In addition, several times while growing up, if the old rotary phone bell rang once.!!! It was followed by a simultaneous flash and thunderclap. 73/88
A lightning stroke is chock full of high-frequency components (and is why you can hear it up into the HF band and even VHF), and this is a big reason why it often follows more than one path to ground. Skin effect and inductance can create a high enough impedance in one path that it'll jump to another one nearby that presents a lower impedance. That pole pig may have had a good ground at 60 Hz, but not especially good at RF where a large portion of a stroke's energy is. That little wire leading from the transformer to ground presents quite an impedance at those higher frequencies, enough so that the larger conductors leading to the house and well presented a more favorable discharge path for that stroke's RF components, and so it took both paths (and probably even more, up and down the road). Now if they'd have used a wide copper strap to ground that pole, the story might have been very different, but they don't because of expense. They're betting on lightning _not_ striking the pole, and most times by far they win. Just not this time.
I've been a licensed electrical contractor since the 80's, and you got it exactly right. And one typically do want as much surface area you can get for your grounding conductor (like brades and pipe) for what ever RF you can ground out. Where people typically experience problems, especially interference is from creating grounding loops by using separate ground rods instead of running the ground to the electrical system internal grounding system. So you're absolutely right about that too. If you have an old electrical service entrance equipment that doesn't have the neutral grounded to a two ground rods 6 feet apart, you might want to either have an electrical service entrance panel upgrade done, or have the existing service neutral conductor grounded to two rods. So you're absolutely right, need to run that grounding conductor all the way back to your service entrance panel grounding system to prevent a ground loop, sometimes referred to as a multipath.
@@ham-radio For those of us that can't get to our panel from the second floor, can we take a plug with NO hot or neutral connection and use the ground lug connection to our common pipe/bar for the station ground/bonding point?
15 years as a communications technician. If hams could see the grounding we do at a commercial site, you'd all tell the ARRL to pound sand and some of you would go home and make some changes. lol We spent a lot of money on "grounding" things and the engineering dept took it VERY seriously.
Most licensees I know, are completely in the dark when any discussion of RF and grounding comes up. Most don't care, they just want to play push-to-talk, let-go-to-listen.
@@garycook5125 As a tech with a bunch of sites, you'd realize after a few years that the sites with proper grounding don't loose equipment in a storm. You're getting a call at 3am because of an electrical storm nearby? It's probably an older site with with poor grounding. It makes a difference.
@@ham-radio I am new to amateur radio licensed 3/21. It seems to me the ARRL is all about money not about the hobby and it's members. Reminds me of the NRA. Non profit does not mean there is a not a lot of profit for the ones at the top. KJ7VUL
Very good Jim ! Grounding and bonding is very important to your safety. Every thing should be kept at same potential. it is the difference that is dangerous . This can cause arcing and shock Hazzard from the difference of potential . Even start a fire/damage equipment/cause shock injury and possible loss of life. The ARRL has a good book on grounding and bonding . Myth was the wrong word to use. It is much more than lightning protection. like a short inside power supply that made 120V go to the case . Heavy snow or rain can make a static charge that can shock you and or damage equipment. During a storm power lines may detach from pole or house and touch your antenna . grounding and bonding save you from all and more. If your common point ground goes to a driver rod . it MUST be bonded to outher ground rods and outside your home. and connect to utility ground. Bonding of ground rods is done outside and with heavy copper wire. and with UL type clamps. never solder. welding is good. during a surge that can be large amount of amps. solder will throw splatter of hot metal and is dangerous and could start a fire or cause severe burns. Please take grounding and bonding very serious and do some research how to do correctly. Your life may depend on it. 73
Good morning Jim. Glad to see you doing what you do, helping us all. I was flowing along doing good on my check list until you said do not use a ground rod. Maybe I missed something. My little shack in common point ground like your diagram but it is grounded to a rod just outside the snack. That rod is tied to the main panel ground. What did I miss. Always always enjoy your presentations and use you as my gold standard of excellence. Trust me your named has been used for reference to many of my friends and post. 73
Jim, I watch you all the time. I have learned so much from you. I agree with you on this issue. Stay well my friend. Keep bringing us the wisdom the world needs.
To keep it simple: 1. An antenna has two conductors where a feedline presents a differential voltage between the two conductors. How do you kill an antenna and stop RF transmission? Short out the two conductors, i.e. connect them so that they are at the same voltage potential. If you have several pieces of equipment where there could be the possibility of having a different RF voltage on each of their cases, you stop them from becoming an antenna and producing RF-in-the-shack by simply making a low impedance connection between the cases. This is goal of the braid-and-copper-pipe configuration. You are simply making sure there is no RF voltage difference between cases and so the cases cannot become an antenna in the shack. 2. What about current loops? Ground loops (or current loops) are frequency (wavelength) dependent. At HF, the wavelength is so much longer than the loop, there is not a problem. Unless, of course, you configure things such that the connection is highly resistive and there is a voltage drop along the interconnecting wire. This is not really a ground loop issue but rather simply poor implementation problem. 3. For safety, the equipment cases are connected back to the main electrical panel’s ground. The copper pipe is probably already well referenced back via the several power cord ground-pin-to-case connections. But it never hurts to run a wire back to the ground of the wall power receptacle. 4. What about lightning? Lightning issues are never fixed inside the shack. Don’t connect a big wire from outside the house to the copper pipe inside the house (i.e. a heavy wire going into the house from an extra ground rod at the antenna entry point). Adding this wire essentially provides a nice conduit for inviting lightning energy right into you shack. Use lightning equipment outside at the entry point. Rods on the tower. Connect the feedline arrestors to the rod -- all outside the house. 5. No such thing as RF ground. You don’t need it in the shack. Your handheld radio in the shack doesn’t need one and your HF radio doesn’t either.
Always a pleasure to see your content. I watched the ARRL video a few weeks ago, and my takeaway was that the emphasis was on the myth of an RF ground - which you seem to be in agreement with. It was a bit misleading of a title; fair enough. With respect to GFCI devices - they only look for an imbalance between hot and neutral - has nothing to do with current flowing on the ground conductor. So, when you mention wanting all the fault current to return via the ground so the breaker/GFCI works, that isn't precise. GFCI will trip regardless of the return path the current is taking - whether it is through the ground lead, or through an alternate path (such as a person to another ground - e.g. a faucet, sink, tub, concrete slab, etc.)
This is exactly what I've learned from every reputable, experienced source over the years. Thank you for all your videos -- they're greatly appreciated! 73 de N8ESP
I believe that under the current management and very very top heavy salaries, they are failing. You may have noticed that they did not, I'll repeat, the ARRL has not released the annual report. I am sure it is a disaster. 73, Jim W6LG
Excellent video Jim and your info is no myth, I'm in telecomms, and the first thing they taught us is to think of it this way, no grounding = different potentials which can = serious injury or death. The same as if you have multiple ground rods they must be linked, EPR in lightning incidents will nearly always cause death. I also agree about lightning "arrestors" and why some knowledgeable sales outlets and manufacturers are now starting to call them what they truly are - lightning diverters. Keep up the good work Jim.
I totally agree with you. Got my Novice in 1967 while in high school. Went on to Electrical Engineering and then Physics! While the approach is different it is important to get things right. In Physics every potential must have a reference. In Electrical Engineering - circuits every voltage must have a reference.
Jim makes the point of disagreeing primarily “with the title” of the ARRL presentation- because it may lead to people disregarding AC / main grounding codes leading to dangerous safety situations. It’s a good point!
The ARRL is losing more and more credibility with me by the day . The way they handled the LoTW issue a few weeks back was laughable , and to put out something as unsafe as this presentation is truly disgusting and unacceptable. A new ham is going to watch that and think it’s great advice. I can’t believe they let something like that get put out to the public in all honesty. One must wonder what is going on at the organization these days . I’ve always looked at the ArrL as kind of a necessary evil personality , but to put out blatant misinformation is actually pretty concerning. 73’ Jim N2JDX
Thanks for the clarity, Jim! I found the ARRL presentation to be confusing with the mixing of different concepts and the "misleading by trying to be funny" title. The concept that *is* a myth is the idea many amateurs have that "earth" or "ground" is an infinite sink of uniform 0 electrical potential into which we can pour any and all unwanted charges simply by hooking up to a ground rod. Many individuals who have this misunderstanding advise violating the NEC and having a separate "shack ground rod" that is not bonded back to the electrical service ground *outside* the home as required by the NEC. That configuration poses a safety hazard because in the event of a nearby lightning strike, a significant potential can develop between the shack ground rod and the electrical service ground. Since the only path for current to flow between those two electrodes is through the radio equipment and the house wiring, this is a risk to life and property. Such stations do bond their two earthing electrodes, but they are bonded through the home rather than outside the home as required by NEC. In my opinion, a better way to think about ground rods is that they are probes into an electrical circuit we call "earth." They are not guaranteed to be at the same potential, and charges do not "seek ground," as if once finding that mystical location, they will remain there forever. A ground rod can be a source of current flowing into the home if not installed and bonded properly.
Ground is not a myth, but nearly every ham's perception of what it is is a myth. A physicist doesn't think of the earth as 'ground'. If ground were really what hams think it is, antennas lying on the ground, or even underground as some longwave antennas are, wouldn't work, but they do. Ground is a conductor of varying resistance, an energy sink of varying resistance, and a reference point of varying resistance. But just driving a rod into our Colorado sandstone does not provide what we would consider to be a ground, not even for DC, because it is such a very high resistance as to be pointless unless it just rained. The capacitive coupling of my raised counterpoise to 'ground' changed every day with how wet that ground was, and with the water in either its liquid state or frozen, shifting the resonant frequency and also changing the efficiency of my longwave antenna. When ground is a fluctuating variable with weather conditions, we can't keep thinking of it as a fixed reference point, as we hams almost invariably do. When I help other hams with antenna problems the problems often end up being due to the ham perceiving 'ground' as some sort of magical fixed entity, as if the Earth were a giant copper ball. It's far from it.
@@ham-radioI think the intent of the word myth was that there is no one ground. The word is used and miss used and miss understood. The thing to beware of is a single isolated ground rod for the radio. That it is ever a RF ground is defiantly a myth. The fact that it makes the radio safe is a myth. Only safety grounds, that green wire connected to the “ third prong” on the power plug, make radios safe of should I say safer. I think that both your presentation and the ARRL presentation were good. No one presentation seems to fully cover any topic, especially one such as grounding and bonding!
In other words there is very much mythology surrounding the topic of electrical "ground". Enough that it was a fitting subject for a talk with the title that offended some sensitive souls.
You are correct. I ran into this problem in Antarctica. There grounding properly could be a real problem. The earth, is variable in its geological properties, it effects grounding.
I have a copper bar 1/4 x 2" x 36" drilled and tapped 1/4-20 every inch and all ground cables are connected to it including all antenna switches. The copper bar is connected to a Edison ground system. I do check the ground resistance from time to time because it can change with the moisture in the earth.
To claim that an electrical ground is a myth is very unusual. It's surprising to hear about a statement like that, which goes against the common grain of knowledge. I suspect it's made to "scare people" into generating attention for some narative or other cause. All I can add is that I spent the first 4 years of my 40+ year career working in the electrical deparment of Underwriters Laboratories, Inc. and the rest in industry, and your understanding is exactly what every product safety engineer understands as well. Good Luck! 73
Jim is conflating the ARRL with the presenter of the talk at the convention, who offers some good arguments of her own. Individual presos at a convention are NOT official positions of the ARRL, as far as I know. I have the Grounding and Bonding ARRL book myself.
I don't have the book. She is the Vice President and with that comes the responsibility, in my view, to be responsible. And that is not a myth. I think many do agree with you and many will disagree with me. And, that is fair. 73, Jim W6LG
@@ham-radio Please, Kristen is absolutely and quite responsible and is allowed her own well-reasoned scientific conclusions (which are NOT necessarily the position of the ARRL, for which she works incredibly hard and long on our behalf), even if you or I do not agree with them and I might or might not. Why not let each viewer decide? Using her presentation to bash the entire ARRL (again, as you usually do) is asinine and absolutely unfair. Your title for the video is misleading clickbait, and you should change it. I've learned much from Kristen and from you through your videos, but please stick to the practical stuff and use your and our time more wisely. I do wish you well, Jim and I'm sorry your health is the way it is. 73 de KK6IPR
Thanks for all. But still I must say that it is an ARRL video and she is the Vice President. The title upsets me a lot as you can tell. Again thanks. Many will read your comment and get a different perspective. The discussion is important for all of us. Many have posted very good comments. Some have pointed out corrections to some of what I said. All of that is good. 73, Jim
Jim, I watched the ARRL's presentation several weeks ago. First impression was similar to yours, but if you give the full presentation a chance you'll note the following: 1 - There is "marketing" in her comments related to "I don't know where the current goes" - she's talking about incorrect grounding assumptions people make who don't keep Kirchoff's current laws in mind. Trust me, she does not mean "Ground is a myth" alone, she's saying this instead "Grounding is not the same thing as RF Protection" - as evidenced with her total presentation. 2 - She is suggesting NOT to connect the station grounds to the same ground as the antenna to station connections as they provide a path INWARD to the station. Your grounding setup is possibly dangerous in that you are providing a new pathway into the shack for lightning charges that come via the antenna path. Instead, consider using the single breaker panel ground (or another ground near the station, but tied to the breaker panel) as the ground for the station equipment, and also put another ground rod in for the antenna and transmission lines, with the fused fail-overs - but do NOT connect that rod to the station grounds. The bottom line is, when you discussed common station grounds, she's saying that is a ground reference and achieves the goals you want due to that (no ground loops at the equipment) and she mentions RF isolation and then lightning protection, but as THREE different goals with three different courses of action. Bottom line here "cute" tag line of "Ground is a Myth" - means "it's not as simple as that, Grounding alone to achieve the other 2 goals makes the single solution a myth". That is what she meant. 73 KM5L
Actually I got that too. But it’s not what she said. She said it was a myth. And from a physicist’s perspective it is. However she was not clear in her explanation. I had to watch it very carefully to understand the way you’re explaining it here. When there’s what you said and what you meant you already have a problem. And that is exactly what Jim is getting at.
@@patrickbouldinkm5l143 As someone who has spent a lot of time teaching, it is important that the instructor is clear enough that students should not misunderstand the material. The ARRL presentation in the eyes of someone who already knows the material makes sense because you assume the sarcasm. Someone who is new to the hobby and not a technical expert can easily take away the wrong, and dangerous, idea. I am with Jim that the ARRL presentation should be considered substandard for alleged experts in this service. I do expect more from them.
Oliver Heavisides figured out how to apply Maxwell's equations when the theorists could not becauae he was a technician in the field with a real need. Having a degree isn't the same qualification as experience.
I personally knew, an Aviation Electrician, who died grounding himself. He was at home, and while installing a regular TV antenna rested it (accidentally?) Against the power cable that ran into his house.
I believe there is a degree of separation between physics education or theory and its actual application. This is a rather regular occurrence in several STEM domains. For instance, engineering principles state that a two-stroke engine will not function; nonetheless, the man trimming his yard with a weed eater proves otherwise. A friend of mine was in his pool when lightning flashed one day. I warned him it was unwise and risky of him to get out of the water before being electrocuted. He instantly informed me that water is a poor conductor of electricity and functions as an insulator, according to his high school physical science teacher. I agreed with her that "pure water," or "H2O only," is a poor conductor of electricity due to the lack of ions and impurities. However, when salts and compounds dissolve in water, they produce positively and negatively charged ions. These ions attract and combine to create ionic compounds that can readily separate and conduct electricity. Continue to enjoy your ion-rich pool. Although she was correct, the way she delivered the information was misleading or, at the very least, misunderstood, and could have resulted in serious harm.
I was always wondering about that since any antena cable or non 110/230V radio equipment ------ PE (protective earth wire; EU terms) connection creates new (additional) and easy way for lightning current to go thru inside building electric installation into ground (instead of being kept outside only).
Thanks. Maybe we are just not smart enough to understand the ARRL. But, I do believe it is really bad advice by the ARRL as is so often the case in the last 4 years with the newest CEO who has been paid over a million dollars. 73, Jim
I power all of my radio equipment with UPSs that are 1500 VA or larger. This gives my equipment backup capabilities (until the generator kicks on), and isolates everything from surges in the house AC electrical system. All Heliax lines from the tower interface through Polyphasers mounted on a large copper bar that is tied directly to its own 10' ground rod within 10' of the bar. I have a separate grounding system on the tower, but won't go into that here.
Here's my scenario. My shack is on the second floor on the opposite side of the house where the main panel is at. There's no easy or affordable method to embed ground rods around the house and tie them back to the main (concrete and other obstructions in the way). The distance from the shack to the main panel is roughly 70ft. I can bond everything in the shack to a common copper rod as described in this video under the desk, however how do I ground it back to the main?
Hi Jim, Thank you very much for this video - not only is it informative, in my case it’s quite timely in that I’m beginning a project to move my shack from the basement to a shed, about 60 feet from my house and about 100:feet from my panel. I had intended to drive a ground rod outside the shed, but you’ve given me something to think about! Needless to say, I’m going to do a bit more investigation before I waste time, money and potentially cause a problem! Thank you and 73! Tim VE1XR
Jim I was an arrl member. I did not renew this year due to money. I found out today from them that all the years I was a member and got digital qst ,I no longer have those copies. If you get the digital version you only can view while you are paid up so all the years I was are gone ,not available to me. That sucks
As you said, AC electrical grounding is the safety. When an electronic device shorts, and they do fail at times, the resulting new path of electrical currant has to go somewhere. Better to the "ground" than in us.
Kristen, K6WX, is a much-respected ham in the Bay Area, both for her technical expertise and her ability to run a radio club (she did a great job heading up PAARA, the Palo Alto club, for several years). I'd suggest getting in touch with her and discussing your concerns. I think you'll enjoy the conversation.
I am certain she is well liked and respected. Clearly she is brilliant. I have never taken a course in electronics at any level. I would not be able to debate her on the subject because I just don't know enough. Having said that, the title and subject that ground is a myth just upset me so much that I had to say ground is not a myth. I am sure she has seeen my little video. The Vice President of the ARRL could make a second video in response to the comments made here. My advice to the ARRL would be to remove the video. Thanks for the advice. I will likely start another round of chemo on Sunday. As you can tell in my video, I feel terrible and struggled with my presentation. 73, Jim W6LG
Jim, I agree almost perfectly on every point. You are absolutely, 100% correct about the safety aspects of grounding and the absolute need to follow the electric code for grounding the station and tower. Those codes exist for good reason. We can’t emphasize this enough! Regarding the RF ground, I would not call it a myth, but I would say that it is relative. As you drew your station, you could reasonably call that copper pipe an RF ground point for LF and HF frequencies. The distance is significantly less than 1/4 wavelength. All else can be described in relative terms to that ground point. Why is this important? Because it actually does matter. For one, as you said, that transmitter noise problem is likely to go away when the shack is tied to that ground reference point with low impedance connections at the frequencies in view. The station may also benefit in the reverse direction with lower noise. Another advantage is that if anything gets unplugged from the power and is still connected to an antenna or control wire, the chassis is still grounded and protects you. That ground also makes it handy to bring test equipment on the bench and not get fooled by phantom signals that are relative between the test equipment ground and the DUT ground. I could list the benefits for hours - after 50 years that ground point proves its worth time and again. The antenna out on the tower is totally relative to that ground point as well, and can be described as well, which proves a stable relationship and the mark of dependable performance. I use a method similar to yours, except my shack has a copper bar tied to a HALO ground which is part of the building’s electrical ground system installed by my electrical contractor, which is at the end of that chain of grounds coming from the antenna. I do not skimp on safety or performance. On lightening arrestors, I also agree that they are misnamed. But one point to mention is that some styles of arrestors are designed to help avoid a strike, not absorb one. Yes, if your antenna gets hit, you best have had your rig disconnected. For commercial antennas and power substations, proper lighting protection reduces strikes. There are commercial guidelines for lightning protection that an electrician can use to decrease the risk and damage from lightning. I am also a fan of grounded antennas, which I also find reduces noise from static, including rain static. I was shocked like you about many things in that presentation. Not knowing what that screw is for was just too much. Ground is not a myth. Ground is a point of reference, which also happens to be near the voltage potential of your body in your shack or yard. That alone makes it not just “not a myth” but rather important as well. As a ham I find it embarrassing. As a professional I declare it dangerous nonsense. As an engineer I shake my head and say, “This is what they must mean by ‘Amateur’ in ARRL!”
Thanks very much. With respect to lightning, my video was not about lightning. I made a quick reference to a listed device connected to the common point at the main panel. Light arrestors, in my view, do not arrest lightning. I helped design one that used an MOV to ground above a certain voltage. If one is lucky, the device might help. But a direct hit would vaporize the MOV. Best thing as you said is disconnect the transceiver from everything. I used to put them into my chair. Most lightning around us would hit the powerlines and come in that way. There is a lot more to the subject of lightning that would have taken way too much time in my video. It was already long and Ihad to edit it down. NEC Chapter 8 and videos by Mike Holt are good sources. I did mispeak about the GFCI as many have pointed out. The video was not about GFCI's. It was about how I set up my station and how others may want to do it the same way. The title of the ARRL's video is what upset me so much. It seemed to me to be completely irresponsible. I was so upset after a few days of thinking about it made my video even though I felt terrible physically from the cancer and medication. I felt it was important for me to say groundd is not a myth. I am not an engineer. I have never taken a course in engineering. But I do know the ARRL video was wrong. Sorry for the long response by me. Thanks again for your comment and advice. 73, Jim W6LG
You are right. I'm a physicist and I can see that what she's getting at is all very well in theory but it's practice that counts and the various safety codes cannot be brushed off [like she did] because 'everything' is wired to those regulations. More alarming is that a neighbour had her house re-wired without 'pulling' a permit (on everything, not just electrical). That foolish saving of $800 for filing the permit [with a $3000 fine if it was reported] is amazing. Dodgy cheap 'electrician' was used, un-inspected and ground tied to the heating radiator system!
Please don't ever use the ARRL as a reference for anything. They are a giant political organization with their own agenda to survive. They are obsolete and no longer have amateur radio operators best interest at heart
@@ham-radio I am of the current opinionthat the ARRL is just a branch of the federal government at this point. The size of the golum is of such a magnitude that it is virtually impossible to alter their direction by means of regular communication. The only way to change the organization is to have a massive stop in membership and their sourse of funding. This is the only sound they will hear.
I've seen this with the NRA and the AOPA. The CEO pay goes up and up as the organization goes downhill. Looks like the ARRL is going the same way. I watched the ARRL video on grounding. She didn't adequately emphasize the difference between a safety ground and an RF ground. She didn't communicate her message effectively. I do think she knows what she is talking about but she could have said it better. Thanks for adding to the discussion, Jim.
I did at my old age find much of it hard to follow from issue to issue. I did watch it more than once because I could not believe that there is no ground. I thought perhaps that I got it wrong. Overall, it was not a resonable well thought out helpful presentation suitable for amateur radio operators so that they could use at their station. In other words, it failed. In my video, I tried to be helpful and explain how I do bonding and grounding in my room. I did not discuss grounding or lightning protection at the antenna. That is another long discussion. 73, Jim W6LG
I think she's talking about a GFCI breaker, which does indeed trip the breaker in the event of a ground fault. AC safety grounds, lightning protection, and RF grounds are all different things. Bonding your equipment to an AC ground is fine for safety. But AC grounds generally are high impedance paths to RF, and are poor lightning and RF grounds. My main concern with grounds are lightning and fire safety and protecting my equipment. AC safety should already be a given thanks to the NEC. For lightning and RF grounds, you need short, straight low inductance paths to ground rods, not a 14ga wire twisting and turning through the walls of your house going 50 feet back to the electrical panel. That ground bar at your equipment needs a good low impedance path through the wall to a ground rod close by, and that ground rod needs to be bonded outside to the electrical panel ground rod. I have a ground rod outside of the shack cable entrance where I mount all my coax surge protectors, and I have a ground rod at the base of each of my masts and towers they tie to. All of my ground rods are then bonded together with #6 buried in the ground and connected to the outside electrical panel ground rod. The equipment ground bar is tied to the rod at the shack cable entrance. Each piece of coax or control cable goes through a surge protection device before it enters the shack. Avoid any sharp bends in the #6 wire connecting the masts, ground rods, and shack ground together. After the antenna cables go through the surge protectors outside, they all terminate in a patch panel. Cables also run from each radio's antenna jack to this patch panel. Patch jumpers allow me to quickly and easily connect any radio to any antenna. When I'm done in the shack, the patches are removed, disconnecting the radios from the antennas.
Per Mike Holt , A ground rod will neither remove a shock hazard nor trip a breaker . Current wants to go back to its source not to ground . That being said , ground rods and and the source are bonded , so they do help to a degree.
Thank you Jim. There is a reason the NEC. requires Proper Grounding and sets the Methods to follow. I cant imanage the ARRL would Approve this Line of thinking. You are spot on with your presentation. Best wishes 73'
The guys throughout history that actually figured this stuff out, all actually built things and tested them. That is what separates them from the modern college educated engineers who are trained to run high end computer software and equipment. I was wondering when you were going to make this video! 73, KF0BBU
Thanks for this video. I have a number of issues to address while planning my home shack, and this helps fill in at least a few of the puzzle pieces. Now if I could just figure out what sort of antenna to put up....
My old house I just moved from had the ground on a cold water pipe. There was no way to drive in a ground rod. You had about 3 inches of dirt over bedrock. The house was in an ancient riverbed (Long since dry). There was a near miss with the new owner when the connection on the pipe loosened up and went to sparking. There was almost a fire. The house was built in the 1920s. I had gotten the last of the knob and tube wiring out of it about 12 years ago.
I don’t yet fully understand grounding, but the electric code clearly indicates that equipment should not be bonded to a separate ground rod unless that rod is in turn bonded to the electric panel ground rod. Thanks for stressing the importance of following the electric code.
Jim, thanks for the great video. Question: if all of my equipment is powered from a DC power supply that has 3 wire ground, is that sufficient? I.e. are they essentially all bonded with respect to AC safety? Thanks!
Just revised circuits on a subpanel in my garage (with permit & inspection). I'm setting up my shack and wanted my radio gear on its own circuit. No amps, so one circuit will be enough. Lights are separate, and I do have an outlet there run from the circuit for my work bench outlets on the other side of the garage to operate a small heater. Only one of the circuits is protected by a GFCI OUTLET. On the others I installed GFCI BREAKERS, so if they detect ground fault, it will trip the breaker and require a reset. The panel is less than 25 ft from the most distant outlet, so that's not inconvenient. I have arc fault protection (AFCI) on most circuits, though that's not required in a garage (in 2024). It is a subpanel, so ground and neutral are not tied together there. Ground goes back to the Main panel and is tied to neutral there. The inspector found a defect missed by the previous owner's subpanel inspection. The subpanel box was not bonded to its ground bus - ouch. Because it was a Siemens box, I ordered the bonding screw from a supply house for ridiculous, if still minor, expense ($1.25 + $14 shipping) and now have several lifetimes' supply of Siemens bonding screws - 9 remaining from a 10-pack. In most of WA, electrical permitting is a state process rather than local, and it's pretty easy and not terribly expensive. Just read the applicable NEC carefully so you stay in compliance.
I'm still in the process of learning HAM radio (in the UK) and I got also confused with the grounding. They recommend an RF ground but at the same time explain that the main electrical ground could be at a different potential that the RF ground (rod of copper in the ground). Then it seems safer to me to only use (as Jim advices) the main ground, however I suppose you add RF choke on the wire to prevent noise to come from the house to RF equipment and the other way round too. Am I correct?
I am a retired Broadcast Engineer. I add another definition to the mix. STATIC DRAIN. A Ground is a direct connection to earth and other grounded objects. A Static Drain is a much less direct connection to earth and other grounded objects. A Drain will drain off small charges but will not take the brunt of a lightning strike. OH, do not unground anything!! Keep ALL ground pins on electrical plugs!!!! Here's the key...... DO NOT make an expensive piece of equipment the fuse for lightning. In my career I came to understand which ways lightning tends to go.... AND.. which ways lightning tends to avoid. Give lightning a HEAVY and DIRECT path to ground.
We had two lightning strikes. Not to my three towers but to the power lines. A TV and some small wall warts were damage. The main panel was also damaged as it took the brunt of the hit. The buss bar was damaged. My fear about the title implies that things need not be grounded. Things like washer, dryer and refrigerator. Bob Heil recommended along with Gordo, I think, cutting off that pin to stop loops. Which is not a good idea. 73, Jim
So let me see if I understand what you're saying: All ground lugs on equipment (radios, tuners, etc) go to a busbar via equal length strap/braid and the busbar gets grounded to the mains ground via an outlet? What about antennas/masts/towers and coax? I assume they get grounded to a ground rod outside that's tied to the mains ground rod?
Not covered in this video. NEC Chapter 8 provides a lot of information and requirements that must be followed. Mike Holt has some videos on antennas, etc. 73, Jim
Jim, great presentation. I live on the 7th floor of an apartment building. I was told by a sales person at DXEngineering to buy 6 guarge battery cables and connect each piece of equipment with a direct run to a copper bus bar. I am not close to the breaker box for my unit so I cannot ground it as you recommend. Also, I would be affraid to touch the box other than to turn on/off a circuit breaker. All of the equipment is plugged into a TrippLite Isobar. I did not connect my Delta-2 antenna switch to the bus bar. Do I need to do that? if so, where is the connector on it? Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks 73 KE0WNL
My blood tests tell a different story. They are done twice a week. Seven times in the hospital in intensive care in the last 18 months. ANC was zero. WBC was .4. I am hoping for an increase. In the meantime, no visitors allowed. Ham radio is my only way out of the house. Sun is up and I am going to check the long path now. 73, Jim W6LG
Jim I have a simple question. My basement station includes 3 transceivers a matching tuner and a few other associated devices all of them attached to a battery bank that is trickle charged by solar. My attennas are grounded via lightning protectors outside. I have the radio equipment tied together but no ground to the panel. Is this correct? I follow everyone of your videos. Thank you for them Brian VE3GUE
Great video as always Jim. Just out of curiosity, if all the components of the station are connected to the power supply, and the power supply is connected to the earth via the third pin on the plug, aren’t all the components then grounded as well?
That is not correct. The ARRL is saying that all ground is a myth. I too watched the video three times. Keep in mind the title of the presentation: Ground is a Myth. 73, Jim
@ham-radio I only watched it one time. I think she made her point. I agree, Ground is a myth. She started by laying out what she meant by ground the electrical concept, and then stuck her sword in that mythical dragon until it was slayed. There are many things we do that we refer to as "ground" in electrical systems. These may be important for function, safety, and required by code. I didn't come away from the talk, feeling she said we shouldn't do these things. We can still use the word "ground" and still do these things, but the Earth is not a copper sphere so let's let go of the myth and treat "ground" as just annother wire in the circuit to provide function, safety, and/or comply with a code. I will watch it again. Maybe I missed something.
I'd like to see what ARRL's "experts" will say on the stand when the the attorney of a silent key's widow asks why ARRL has explicitly discouraged the use of bonding and grounding in the shack... (de kg5ar, BSEE, MS, EI)
That occured to me too. So, I said that this is how I did it. I tried not to say that you must do it my way. I did not discuss lightning except to mention a listed device in the coax that is connected to the common point ground at the main panel. My degrees are in business and finance. I have never taken a course in electronics and it shows. After my videos are released there is one guy with a Phd who will write a long, very long email about what I did wrong. Thanks, Jim W6LG
Ironic I stumbled on this, I have an antenna up for about 5 years, Never has it been hit by lightning It’s at 65 foot. Just put up another same height up for about a month and it already got a direct hit. I been trying to get it grounded, but other things came up and just didn’t get to it. Now it all has to come back down since it’s pretty much done. Both radios are fried as well, so yeah grounding is a good thing😂
I live in the Tampa Bay area which was more lightning than any ware else in the the rest of the country. My philosophy is some protection is better than no protection. I do have my antenna connected to a gas discharge tube lightning arrester which is connected to copper 8 foot ground rod with 6 gauge cooper wire. My radio is insured for lightning damage and I disconnect the coax lead in when not in use. The power supply for the radio has a grounded 3 prong plug. My situation is not perfect but its the best I can do. Gary KJ4PHG
Each of your points here are in alignment with the ARRL presentation. She discussed the fact that she was talking about RF ground only. She kept saying that grounding for lightning and safety are still very important, but running a shack ground wire down two floors to get an RF ground is fruitless. I am sorry you thought you were in disagreement; however, I did find the ARRL title a bit misleading, but I think it was to get the attention of those that still search for RF grounds in a ground rod. Both of you make the same points. The best you can do with RF is to keep all equipment at a "common" potential with heavy bonding wire. For me, braided bonding has worked fine indoors, away from the weather. Once I started bonding my equipment together and added line chokes to the coax, my rf-in-the-shack problems went away. Oh, yea, going QRP portable helped convince me as well. No ground rods, no rf burns, great fun. --Mark, KE6BB
@W6LG I loved this. Your video prompted me to watch the other video (ARRL video) again, and it left me with more questions about where concepts may have gone astray. If someone could do a couple point by point explanations of the contradictory info it would be great to learn from. ON ANOTHER NOTE.... I see a lot of ARRL-bashing in the comments here, which worries me because this was a lecture on just one topic and from just one expert, not necessarily representing the entire direction of the ARRL and its role in advocacy of the field. The bashing could be less IMO. I feel like the ARRL has done awesome things over the years, and also, they have been valuable recently with regard to FCC's consideration of symbol rates. The ARRL was on the side of making sure the rules can keep up with technology in this particular case.
She speaks with the authority of being the ARRL Vice President. It is not my purpose to go through her video point by point. She explains her views and analysis point by point. With respect to ARRL bashing, the ARRL Board of Directors needs to be bashed. The ARRL is losing members at an alarming rate. I have been told by a Director that the CEO has earned over $1,000,000 in the last three years during the decline of members and respect. The Annual Report has not been published as it should have been. We are left with speculation about last years performance of the management of the ARRL. If the ARRL does not change direction, it will fail. If you think that is not possible, look at other companies that have failed in the last few years. The bashing of the ARRL is the result of the ARRL. I am a Life Member and I do not want the ARRL to fail. The organization needs to change. The bashing that they get is a result of what they are doing. Thanks for your thoughtful comments. Regards, Jim Heath W6LG
Ground is real! Just fall off the roof and you will know. As a RF tech 30+ years deep, most "spooky" problems are due to poor grounding. I like the term floating ground because it correctly describes a vehicle, vessel or aircraft. Jim referred to the term bonding and there is truth in that. Everything needs to be tied to a common reference. The nice part about properly grounded equipment is no tingles and you won't zorch your equipment after walking across the carpet. Unless it's an IC-718, that requires internally grounding the tuner shaft to the chassis because Icom forgot to do that.
I've been told same things as you've said Jimmy but, how bad of an idea is it to "bond" to the ground of my outlets? For reference, I have very low resistance to the electrical box, (2nd fl shack) and a very heavy duty separate service to my shack. Somewhere in time, I have been told to not do this...Your thoughts Jimmy?
A complex subject which is not easy to get your head around! One point I would like to make regarding earth loop 'hum' - with amateur radio equipment it is normally designed to work off of battery or separate mains PSU, so it is 'doubly insulated' - it does not use the mains earth to provide safety or bonding. Earthing the way you illustrate with a star connection is exactly what is needed - no earth loops and everything has a common reference. I used to live on 13th floor and you could light a traditional bulb between the electric earth and the water earth! Earth is an inaccurate description, as would 'ground'. They are concepts whereas bonding is a reality and is what we need to exercise. Take a look around a high power transmitting station (especially a LW or MW one). You will find lots of copper connecting things together to create a common bond. Even then you can still light bulbs between earths! A standard 'trick' when in the antenna field to check if the transmitter was on air was to create an arc between the barbed wire fence and the 'earth' wand (bonded to the station 'earth'). If you got an arc, the transmitter was on.... I would not trust the opposite statement though!
Hey Jim, I have a question. If I connect my equipment etc. to a copper rod in my shack as you showed, and I drill a hole in my floor and connect a copper wire from that rod to the steel frame of my mobile home, is that enough? I think I only have a sub panel in my mobile home and not a main panel with a ground rod. My main panel is 50ft. from my mobile home and that has 1 or 2 ground rods. Thanks.
Best way I have read/heard someone explain it to me is RF ground is 'the other side of your antenna'. Applies to most antennas we come across like dipole, verticals or their variations. A poorly balanced antenna will find that other half, hence why people get RFI problems with some un balanced antennas. Safety earth ground, is somewhat different topic. reality is most modern equipment is safe with third prong slot on electrical plug into any home built in the last 65 years or so. Then there is that whole other can of worms of grounding for lightning protection...
The other side of a dipole is NOT an RF Ground. Radials are NOT an RF Ground. I don't know where that comes from and it makes no sense at all. RF is AC. 73, Jim W6LG
You are quite correct. The name of ARRL presentation should have been "Ground is often mislabeled" I spent 20 years as an electrical field engineer working for an electric utility. I was very disappointed by the presentation. Early electrical systems in rural areas only used one wire to provide distribution. The return was quite literally the earth. Of course some areas the soil is not very conductive and therefore a rod or two driven in to the ground does not give you a good ground. When we grounded transmission lines or substations we tried to achieve one ohm or less with a meggar. RF grounds are a different animal. A radio wave transmitted through the air does not a have a return path. However, ground planes are real and are necessary for many antenna systems.
One thing I am confused about is. Alpha delta switch instructions clearly say do not bond with other equipment. Run a ground wire directly to ground rod.
@@ham-radio point is they have lightning protection in them, so you would not bond them to other equipment. I watch your videos and know that you know what you are talking about. Your videos are greatly appreciated. I thought that maybe you just misspoke about the alpha delta switch.
I think that I said there needs to be a listed device connected to the coax and connected to the common point ground at the main panel. I wonder about devices that claim lightning protection like that switch. Seems like it could be more about marketing than actually doing anything. The MOV will short with a spike. Lightning would go through the switch even with the MOV. So bonding the switch seems reasonable to me. 73, Jim
I have a copper bonding bar mounted on the wall behind my desk that goes to a MFJ window passthrough to my ground rod outside. Why is the ground rod bad?
Since the grounds and the neutrals are connected together at the main service entry point, "ground fault current ( current that does not return on the neutral in the monitored circuit from the hot)" can also return to the transformer feeding the property on the neutral, or center tap if you like even if returning back to the circuit through a ground rod. It can also take the path of earth ground but is more likely to return on the service neutral. To make the statement that ground is a myth in my mind demonstrates a gross misunderstanding of electrical power distribution systems.
Of course it does. Hence the ground rod or Ufer rod at the main panel and a rod at the center tap of the pole pig. They are not there just for looks. 73, Jim W6LG
Thanks Jim !! Question, my powersupply 230V ac. Is connected maincable to Earth. -and connected to the bonding device( cupper pipe) The bonding device is connected to Earth.? Thanks!! Theo PA0HTY Then you created an Earth loop connectie. 7:43 Solution? Powersupply not connected to Earth ?
I was convinced by Jim's previous videos on this very subject. When lighting is in the area my coax goes outside regardless of the spark gap arrestor.
I was about 8 years old during Hurricane Betsy, once the power was lost my Uncle turned off all outside breakers and removed the screw-in fuses on the inside panel.
Perhaps hours later. Lighting hit the pole transformer on the street, which was grounded. It jumped the breakers, burnt up the well motor, and jumped the inside panel, and a light switch that was off in the room where we were sitting around the hurricane lamp. The bulb illuminated brightly and popped. Seems like there was other damage, but I can't remember. This Left a lasting impression on me. In hindsight, by then a lot of the power lines were down and the lighting was probably going for the 150 ft well. However, it also came inside the house as well. Respect, Mother Nature.
In addition, several times while growing up, if the old rotary phone bell rang once.!!! It was followed by a simultaneous flash and thunderclap. 73/88
A lightning stroke is chock full of high-frequency components (and is why you can hear it up into the HF band and even VHF), and this is a big reason why it often follows more than one path to ground. Skin effect and inductance can create a high enough impedance in one path that it'll jump to another one nearby that presents a lower impedance. That pole pig may have had a good ground at 60 Hz, but not especially good at RF where a large portion of a stroke's energy is. That little wire leading from the transformer to ground presents quite an impedance at those higher frequencies, enough so that the larger conductors leading to the house and well presented a more favorable discharge path for that stroke's RF components, and so it took both paths (and probably even more, up and down the road). Now if they'd have used a wide copper strap to ground that pole, the story might have been very different, but they don't because of expense. They're betting on lightning _not_ striking the pole, and most times by far they win. Just not this time.
I've been a licensed electrical contractor since the 80's, and you got it exactly right. And one typically do want as much surface area you can get for your grounding conductor (like brades and pipe) for what ever RF you can ground out.
Where people typically experience problems, especially interference is from creating grounding loops by using separate ground rods instead of running the ground to the electrical system internal grounding system. So you're absolutely right about that too.
If you have an old electrical service entrance equipment that doesn't have the neutral grounded to a two ground rods 6 feet apart, you might want to either have an electrical service entrance panel upgrade done, or have the existing service neutral conductor grounded to two rods.
So you're absolutely right, need to run that grounding conductor all the way back to your service entrance panel grounding system to prevent a ground loop, sometimes referred to as a multipath.
Im a licensed electrician your explanation is spot on! Thanks KA1HIW
Great to hear that. Many years ago I was a Deputy Building Inspector. That means little today. Thanks for the help. 73, Jim W6LG
@@ham-radio For those of us that can't get to our panel from the second floor, can we take a plug with NO hot or neutral connection and use the ground lug connection to our common pipe/bar for the station ground/bonding point?
15 years as a communications technician. If hams could see the grounding we do at a commercial site, you'd all tell the ARRL to pound sand and some of you would go home and make some changes. lol We spent a lot of money on "grounding" things and the engineering dept took it VERY seriously.
Exactly. The motorola book on grounding was not produced because grounding is a myth. Sheesh.
Most licensees I know, are completely in the dark when any discussion of RF and grounding comes up. Most don't care, they just want to play push-to-talk, let-go-to-listen.
@@garycook5125 As a tech with a bunch of sites, you'd realize after a few years that the sites with proper grounding don't loose equipment in a storm. You're getting a call at 3am because of an electrical storm nearby? It's probably an older site with with poor grounding. It makes a difference.
Who is running ARRL ? Secret service agent "Cheatle"🤣⚡️⚡️
David Minster, I was told that his salary has added up to 1 million dollars during the last three years. I am hoping that is wrong. 73, Jim W6LG
@@ham-radio it’s not wrong unfortunately
Just like many non-profits. Just a scam for the top people. I wonder how many have been killed due to this scum.
@@ham-radio I am new to amateur radio licensed 3/21. It seems to me the ARRL is all about money not about the hobby and it's members. Reminds me of the NRA. Non profit does not mean there is a not a lot of profit for the ones at the top. KJ7VUL
thanks funny all week long
Very good Jim ! Grounding and bonding is very important to your safety. Every thing should be kept at same potential. it is the difference that is dangerous . This can cause arcing and shock Hazzard from the difference of potential . Even start a fire/damage equipment/cause shock injury and possible loss of life. The ARRL has a good book on grounding and bonding . Myth was the wrong word to use. It is much more than lightning protection. like a short inside power supply that made 120V go to the case . Heavy snow or rain can make a static charge that can shock you and or damage equipment. During a storm power lines may detach from pole or house and touch your antenna . grounding and bonding save you from all and more. If your common point ground goes to a driver rod . it MUST be bonded to outher ground rods and outside your home. and connect to utility ground. Bonding of ground rods is done outside and with heavy copper wire. and with UL type clamps. never solder. welding is good. during a surge that can be large amount of amps. solder will throw splatter of hot metal and is dangerous and could start a fire or cause severe burns. Please take grounding and bonding very serious and do some research how to do correctly. Your life may depend on it. 73
Ground is most important, all audio systems are grounded to cut down on static and for safety 73 Jim
Yes of couse. Thanks for adding that. 73, Jim
Thanks for being our "Elmer"! I appreciate your experience, understanding, and ability to express that knowledge.
KD9LUC
Good morning Jim. Glad to see you doing what you do, helping us all. I was flowing along doing good on my check list until you said do not use a ground rod. Maybe I missed something. My little shack in common point ground like your diagram but it is grounded to a rod just outside the snack. That rod is tied to the main panel ground. What did I miss. Always always enjoy your presentations and use you as my gold standard of excellence. Trust me your named has been used for reference to many of my friends and post. 73
Jim, Thanks for the great video. I worked in the High Voltage repair industry for 46 years. You are right on target with your talk !
I saw that presentation, been scratching my head since.
It was a poorly produced presentation. 73, Jim W6LG
If you keep stretching until you figure it out, you'll be bald.
@@noithinknot4583 too late! LOL
Chemotherapy is taking my hair and my teeth! 73, JIm W6LG
When all connected like that it also reduces noise in the receivers and transmitters. After 50 plus years with ARRL I quit them a couple of years ago.
Jim, I watch you all the time. I have learned so much from you. I agree with you on this issue. Stay well my friend. Keep bringing us the wisdom the world needs.
I am trying. But the fatigue, hair loss and tooth loss is really getting to me. Chemo again next week appears likely. 73, Jim
To keep it simple:
1. An antenna has two conductors where a feedline presents a differential voltage between the two conductors. How do you kill an antenna and stop RF transmission? Short out the two conductors, i.e. connect them so that they are at the same voltage potential. If you have several pieces of equipment where there could be the possibility of having a different RF voltage on each of their cases, you stop them from becoming an antenna and producing RF-in-the-shack by simply making a low impedance connection between the cases. This is goal of the braid-and-copper-pipe configuration. You are simply making sure there is no RF voltage difference between cases and so the cases cannot become an antenna in the shack.
2. What about current loops? Ground loops (or current loops) are frequency (wavelength) dependent. At HF, the wavelength is so much longer than the loop, there is not a problem. Unless, of course, you configure things such that the connection is highly resistive and there is a voltage drop along the interconnecting wire. This is not really a ground loop issue but rather simply poor implementation problem.
3. For safety, the equipment cases are connected back to the main electrical panel’s ground. The copper pipe is probably already well referenced back via the several power cord ground-pin-to-case connections. But it never hurts to run a wire back to the ground of the wall power receptacle.
4. What about lightning? Lightning issues are never fixed inside the shack. Don’t connect a big wire from outside the house to the copper pipe inside the house (i.e. a heavy wire going into the house from an extra ground rod at the antenna entry point). Adding this wire essentially provides a nice conduit for inviting lightning energy right into you shack. Use lightning equipment outside at the entry point. Rods on the tower. Connect the feedline arrestors to the rod -- all outside the house.
5. No such thing as RF ground. You don’t need it in the shack. Your handheld radio in the shack doesn’t need one and your HF radio doesn’t either.
I agree 100% , it will cost you a little but it's a near must thing to do in my opinion
Thanks, Jim
I felt a tickle. You are doing it right of course Jim! That we could all be as well grounded! I felt a tickle again.
Always a pleasure to see your content. I watched the ARRL video a few weeks ago, and my takeaway was that the emphasis was on the myth of an RF ground - which you seem to be in agreement with. It was a bit misleading of a title; fair enough. With respect to GFCI devices - they only look for an imbalance between hot and neutral - has nothing to do with current flowing on the ground conductor. So, when you mention wanting all the fault current to return via the ground so the breaker/GFCI works, that isn't precise. GFCI will trip regardless of the return path the current is taking - whether it is through the ground lead, or through an alternate path (such as a person to another ground - e.g. a faucet, sink, tub, concrete slab, etc.)
This is how I understand it, too.
@@tennesseered586 Agree. this is also my understanding. but in fairness to Jim, there is only so much you can cram into a TH-cam presentation.
Thanks for keeping us safe Jim. 73
This is exactly what I've learned from every reputable, experienced source over the years.
Thank you for all your videos -- they're greatly appreciated!
73 de N8ESP
You're very welcome
The real myth is the ARRL itself, how low will they go?.
I believe that under the current management and very very top heavy salaries, they are failing. You may have noticed that they did not, I'll repeat, the ARRL has not released the annual report. I am sure it is a disaster. 73, Jim W6LG
Excellent video Jim and your info is no myth, I'm in telecomms, and the first thing they taught us is to think of it this way, no grounding = different potentials which can = serious injury or death. The same as if you have multiple ground rods they must be linked, EPR in lightning incidents will nearly always cause death. I also agree about lightning "arrestors" and why some knowledgeable sales outlets and manufacturers are now starting to call them what they truly are - lightning diverters. Keep up the good work Jim.
I totally agree with you. Got my Novice in 1967 while in high school. Went on to Electrical Engineering and then Physics! While the approach is different it is important to get things right. In Physics every potential must have a reference. In Electrical Engineering - circuits every voltage must have a reference.
Jim makes the point of disagreeing primarily “with the title” of the ARRL presentation- because it may lead to people disregarding AC / main grounding codes leading to dangerous safety situations. It’s a good point!
Always a pleasure to learn from people like yourself 👍
I’ll be taking my amateur licence soon.
73 from Finland
The ARRL is losing more and more credibility with me by the day . The way they handled the LoTW issue a few weeks back was laughable , and to put out something as unsafe as this presentation is truly disgusting and unacceptable. A new ham is going to watch that and think it’s great advice. I can’t believe they let something like that get put out to the public in all honesty. One must wonder what is going on at the organization these days . I’ve always looked at the ArrL as kind of a necessary evil personality , but to put out blatant misinformation is actually pretty concerning. 73’ Jim N2JDX
Thanks for the clarity, Jim! I found the ARRL presentation to be confusing with the mixing of different concepts and the "misleading by trying to be funny" title.
The concept that *is* a myth is the idea many amateurs have that "earth" or "ground" is an infinite sink of uniform 0 electrical potential into which we can pour any and all unwanted charges simply by hooking up to a ground rod.
Many individuals who have this misunderstanding advise violating the NEC and having a separate "shack ground rod" that is not bonded back to the electrical service ground *outside* the home as required by the NEC.
That configuration poses a safety hazard because in the event of a nearby lightning strike, a significant potential can develop between the shack ground rod and the electrical service ground. Since the only path for current to flow between those two electrodes is through the radio equipment and the house wiring, this is a risk to life and property. Such stations do bond their two earthing electrodes, but they are bonded through the home rather than outside the home as required by NEC.
In my opinion, a better way to think about ground rods is that they are probes into an electrical circuit we call "earth." They are not guaranteed to be at the same potential, and charges do not "seek ground," as if once finding that mystical location, they will remain there forever. A ground rod can be a source of current flowing into the home if not installed and bonded properly.
Ground is not a myth, but nearly every ham's perception of what it is is a myth. A physicist doesn't think of the earth as 'ground'. If ground were really what hams think it is, antennas lying on the ground, or even underground as some longwave antennas are, wouldn't work, but they do. Ground is a conductor of varying resistance, an energy sink of varying resistance, and a reference point of varying resistance. But just driving a rod into our Colorado sandstone does not provide what we would consider to be a ground, not even for DC, because it is such a very high resistance as to be pointless unless it just rained. The capacitive coupling of my raised counterpoise to 'ground' changed every day with how wet that ground was, and with the water in either its liquid state or frozen, shifting the resonant frequency and also changing the efficiency of my longwave antenna. When ground is a fluctuating variable with weather conditions, we can't keep thinking of it as a fixed reference point, as we hams almost invariably do. When I help other hams with antenna problems the problems often end up being due to the ham perceiving 'ground' as some sort of magical fixed entity, as if the Earth were a giant copper ball. It's far from it.
I had to read it 3 times. Thanks, Jim
@@ham-radioI think the intent of the word myth was that there is no one ground. The word is used and miss used and miss understood. The thing to beware of is a single isolated ground rod for the radio. That it is ever a RF ground is defiantly a myth. The fact that it makes the radio safe is a myth. Only safety grounds, that green wire connected to the “ third prong” on the power plug, make radios safe of should I say safer.
I think that both your presentation and the ARRL presentation were good. No one presentation seems to fully cover any topic, especially one such as grounding and bonding!
In other words there is very much mythology surrounding the topic of electrical "ground". Enough that it was a fitting subject for a talk with the title that offended some sensitive souls.
You are correct. I ran into this problem in Antarctica. There grounding properly could be a real problem. The earth, is variable in its geological properties, it effects grounding.
in norway it is not allowed to connect a tower to the same earth as the house, it must have its own earth plate, the same applies to HF rigs
Good one Jim.
I have a copper bar 1/4 x 2" x 36" drilled and tapped 1/4-20 every inch and all ground cables are connected to it including all antenna switches. The copper bar is connected to a Edison ground system. I do check the ground resistance from time to time because it can change with the moisture in the earth.
What tool do you use to check it and how ?
To claim that an electrical ground is a myth is very unusual. It's surprising to hear about a statement like that, which goes against the common grain of knowledge. I suspect it's made to "scare people" into generating attention for some narative or other cause. All I can add is that I spent the first 4 years of my 40+ year career working in the electrical deparment of Underwriters Laboratories, Inc. and the rest in industry, and your understanding is exactly what every product safety engineer understands as well. Good Luck! 73
The funny thing is the ARRL have full books about ground and talking about how essential it is to understand.
Jim is conflating the ARRL with the presenter of the talk at the convention, who offers some good arguments of her own. Individual presos at a convention are NOT official positions of the ARRL, as far as I know. I have the Grounding and Bonding ARRL book myself.
I don't have the book. She is the Vice President and with that comes the responsibility, in my view, to be responsible. And that is not a myth. I think many do agree with you and many will disagree with me. And, that is fair. 73, Jim W6LG
@@ham-radio Please, Kristen is absolutely and quite responsible and is allowed her own well-reasoned scientific conclusions (which are NOT necessarily the position of the ARRL, for which she works incredibly hard and long on our behalf), even if you or I do not agree with them and I might or might not. Why not let each viewer decide? Using her presentation to bash the entire ARRL (again, as you usually do) is asinine and absolutely unfair. Your title for the video is misleading clickbait, and you should change it. I've learned much from Kristen and from you through your videos, but please stick to the practical stuff and use your and our time more wisely. I do wish you well, Jim and I'm sorry your health is the way it is. 73 de KK6IPR
Thanks for all. But still I must say that it is an ARRL video and she is the Vice President. The title upsets me a lot as you can tell. Again thanks. Many will read your comment and get a different perspective. The discussion is important for all of us. Many have posted very good comments. Some have pointed out corrections to some of what I said. All of that is good. 73, Jim
Jim, I watched the ARRL's presentation several weeks ago. First impression was similar to yours, but if you give the full presentation a chance you'll note the following: 1 - There is "marketing" in her comments related to "I don't know where the current goes" - she's talking about incorrect grounding assumptions people make who don't keep Kirchoff's current laws in mind. Trust me, she does not mean "Ground is a myth" alone, she's saying this instead "Grounding is not the same thing as RF Protection" - as evidenced with her total presentation. 2 - She is suggesting NOT to connect the station grounds to the same ground as the antenna to station connections as they provide a path INWARD to the station. Your grounding setup is possibly dangerous in that you are providing a new pathway into the shack for lightning charges that come via the antenna path. Instead, consider using the single breaker panel ground (or another ground near the station, but tied to the breaker panel) as the ground for the station equipment, and also put another ground rod in for the antenna and transmission lines, with the fused fail-overs - but do NOT connect that rod to the station grounds. The bottom line is, when you discussed common station grounds, she's saying that is a ground reference and achieves the goals you want due to that (no ground loops at the equipment) and she mentions RF isolation and then lightning protection, but as THREE different goals with three different courses of action. Bottom line here "cute" tag line of "Ground is a Myth" - means "it's not as simple as that, Grounding alone to achieve the other 2 goals makes the single solution a myth". That is what she meant. 73 KM5L
Actually I got that too. But it’s not what she said. She said it was a myth. And from a physicist’s perspective it is. However she was not clear in her explanation. I had to watch it very carefully to understand the way you’re explaining it here. When there’s what you said and what you meant you already have a problem. And that is exactly what Jim is getting at.
The title says it all. But I will bet that her washer, dryer, dishwasher and refrigerator are all grounded! And that is no theory. 73, Jim
@@patrickbouldinkm5l143 As someone who has spent a lot of time teaching, it is important that the instructor is clear enough that students should not misunderstand the material. The ARRL presentation in the eyes of someone who already knows the material makes sense because you assume the sarcasm. Someone who is new to the hobby and not a technical expert can easily take away the wrong, and dangerous, idea.
I am with Jim that the ARRL presentation should be considered substandard for alleged experts in this service. I do expect more from them.
Oliver Heavisides figured out how to apply Maxwell's equations when the theorists could not becauae he was a technician in the field with a real need.
Having a degree isn't the same qualification as experience.
Thanks, Jim
Greetings, Mr. Jim Thanks for the info 73
Very welcome
I personally knew, an Aviation Electrician, who died grounding himself. He was at home, and while installing a regular TV antenna rested it (accidentally?) Against the power cable that ran into his house.
Well put, Jim. This is how I was taught about grounding. IBEW Local 531 member, K9EBBI.
Unions arere good at teaching and helped build this country. I'd like to see more Unions and stronger Unions doing what they do best. 73, Jim
I believe there is a degree of separation between physics education or theory and its actual application. This is a rather regular occurrence in several STEM domains. For instance, engineering principles state that a two-stroke engine will not function; nonetheless, the man trimming his yard with a weed eater proves otherwise. A friend of mine was in his pool when lightning flashed one day. I warned him it was unwise and risky of him to get out of the water before being electrocuted. He instantly informed me that water is a poor conductor of electricity and functions as an insulator, according to his high school physical science teacher. I agreed with her that "pure water," or "H2O only," is a poor conductor of electricity due to the lack of ions and impurities. However, when salts and compounds dissolve in water, they produce positively and negatively charged ions. These ions attract and combine to create ionic compounds that can readily separate and conduct electricity. Continue to enjoy your ion-rich pool. Although she was correct, the way she delivered the information was misleading or, at the very least, misunderstood, and could have resulted in serious harm.
That's exactly what I have in my shack except I don't have the coax switch grounded. I didn't even think to throw a strap on it but I will tomorrow.
Probably doesn't matter much with the coax braid doing the job BUT connectors have a nasty habit of working loose on their own. 73, Jim W6LG
I was always wondering about that since any antena cable or non 110/230V radio equipment ------ PE (protective earth wire; EU terms) connection creates new (additional) and easy way for lightning current to go thru inside building electric installation into ground (instead of being kept outside only).
Thank you for this clear, concise information.
This seems to have been such a half-baked point taken by the ARRL. Glad you are there for the sanity check!
Thanks. Maybe we are just not smart enough to understand the ARRL. But, I do believe it is really bad advice by the ARRL as is so often the case in the last 4 years with the newest CEO who has been paid over a million dollars. 73, Jim
I power all of my radio equipment with UPSs that are 1500 VA or larger. This gives my equipment backup capabilities (until the generator kicks on), and isolates everything from surges in the house AC electrical system. All Heliax lines from the tower interface through Polyphasers mounted on a large copper bar that is tied directly to its own 10' ground rod within 10' of the bar. I have a separate grounding system on the tower, but won't go into that here.
Here's my scenario. My shack is on the second floor on the opposite side of the house where the main panel is at. There's no easy or affordable method to embed ground rods around the house and tie them back to the main (concrete and other obstructions in the way). The distance from the shack to the main panel is roughly 70ft. I can bond everything in the shack to a common copper rod as described in this video under the desk, however how do I ground it back to the main?
Hi Jim,
Thank you very much for this video - not only is it informative, in my case it’s quite timely in that I’m beginning a project to move my shack from the basement to a shed, about 60 feet from my house and about 100:feet from my panel. I had intended to drive a ground rod outside the shed, but you’ve given me something to think about!
Needless to say, I’m going to do a bit more investigation before I waste time, money and potentially cause a problem!
Thank you and 73!
Tim
VE1XR
Jim I was an arrl member. I did not renew this year due to money.
I found out today from them that all the years I was a member and got digital qst ,I no longer have those copies. If you get the digital version you only can view while you are paid up so all the years I was are gone ,not available to me.
That sucks
That did not occur to me. That does suck and should not be the case. You PAID for them. I guess downloading is the answer. 73. Jim
As you said, AC electrical grounding is the safety.
When an electronic device shorts, and they do fail at times, the resulting new path of electrical currant has to go somewhere. Better to the "ground" than in us.
Indeed.
Heard you on the air just now on 20M (I've spun the dial so I can't tell you where on the band) Thought I would check out your TH-cam
Kristen, K6WX, is a much-respected ham in the Bay Area, both for her technical expertise and her ability to run a radio club (she did a great job heading up PAARA, the Palo Alto club, for several years). I'd suggest getting in touch with her and discussing your concerns. I think you'll enjoy the conversation.
I am certain she is well liked and respected. Clearly she is brilliant. I have never taken a course in electronics at any level. I would not be able to debate her on the subject because I just don't know enough. Having said that, the title and subject that ground is a myth just upset me so much that I had to say ground is not a myth. I am sure she has seeen my little video. The Vice President of the ARRL could make a second video in response to the comments made here. My advice to the ARRL would be to remove the video. Thanks for the advice. I will likely start another round of chemo on Sunday. As you can tell in my video, I feel terrible and struggled with my presentation. 73, Jim W6LG
Jim, I agree almost perfectly on every point.
You are absolutely, 100% correct about the safety aspects of grounding and the absolute need to follow the electric code for grounding the station and tower. Those codes exist for good reason. We can’t emphasize this enough!
Regarding the RF ground, I would not call it a myth, but I would say that it is relative. As you drew your station, you could reasonably call that copper pipe an RF ground point for LF and HF frequencies. The distance is significantly less than 1/4 wavelength. All else can be described in relative terms to that ground point. Why is this important? Because it actually does matter. For one, as you said, that transmitter noise problem is likely to go away when the shack is tied to that ground reference point with low impedance connections at the frequencies in view. The station may also benefit in the reverse direction with lower noise. Another advantage is that if anything gets unplugged from the power and is still connected to an antenna or control wire, the chassis is still grounded and protects you. That ground also makes it handy to bring test equipment on the bench and not get fooled by phantom signals that are relative between the test equipment ground and the DUT ground. I could list the benefits for hours - after 50 years that ground point proves its worth time and again.
The antenna out on the tower is totally relative to that ground point as well, and can be described as well, which proves a stable relationship and the mark of dependable performance. I use a method similar to yours, except my shack has a copper bar tied to a HALO ground which is part of the building’s electrical ground system installed by my electrical contractor, which is at the end of that chain of grounds coming from the antenna. I do not skimp on safety or performance.
On lightening arrestors, I also agree that they are misnamed. But one point to mention is that some styles of arrestors are designed to help avoid a strike, not absorb one. Yes, if your antenna gets hit, you best have had your rig disconnected. For commercial antennas and power substations, proper lighting protection reduces strikes. There are commercial guidelines for lightning protection that an electrician can use to decrease the risk and damage from lightning. I am also a fan of grounded antennas, which I also find reduces noise from static, including rain static.
I was shocked like you about many things in that presentation. Not knowing what that screw is for was just too much. Ground is not a myth. Ground is a point of reference, which also happens to be near the voltage potential of your body in your shack or yard. That alone makes it not just “not a myth” but rather important as well. As a ham I find it embarrassing. As a professional I declare it dangerous nonsense. As an engineer I shake my head and say, “This is what they must mean by ‘Amateur’ in ARRL!”
Thanks very much. With respect to lightning, my video was not about lightning. I made a quick reference to a listed device connected to the common point at the main panel. Light arrestors, in my view, do not arrest lightning. I helped design one that used an MOV to ground above a certain voltage. If one is lucky, the device might help. But a direct hit would vaporize the MOV. Best thing as you said is disconnect the transceiver from everything. I used to put them into my chair. Most lightning around us would hit the powerlines and come in that way. There is a lot more to the subject of lightning that would have taken way too much time in my video. It was already long and Ihad to edit it down. NEC Chapter 8 and videos by Mike Holt are good sources. I did mispeak about the GFCI as many have pointed out. The video was not about GFCI's. It was about how I set up my station and how others may want to do it the same way. The title of the ARRL's video is what upset me so much. It seemed to me to be completely irresponsible. I was so upset after a few days of thinking about it made my video even though I felt terrible physically from the cancer and medication. I felt it was important for me to say groundd is not a myth. I am not an engineer. I have never taken a course in engineering. But I do know the ARRL video was wrong. Sorry for the long response by me. Thanks again for your comment and advice. 73, Jim W6LG
You are right. I'm a physicist and I can see that what she's getting at is all very well in theory but it's practice that counts and the various safety codes cannot be brushed off [like she did] because 'everything' is wired to those regulations. More alarming is that a neighbour had her house re-wired without 'pulling' a permit (on everything, not just electrical). That foolish saving of $800 for filing the permit [with a $3000 fine if it was reported] is amazing. Dodgy cheap 'electrician' was used, un-inspected and ground tied to the heating radiator system!
Please don't ever use the ARRL as a reference for anything. They are a giant political organization with their own agenda to survive. They are obsolete and no longer have amateur radio operators best interest at heart
Mark, they, the ARRL needs to hear that because you are not alone with that opinion. 73, Jim
I watched about 5 minutes of the crazy lady and switched off.
Stupidest stuff I've heard in a looong time.
@@ham-radio I am of the current opinionthat the ARRL is just a branch of the federal government at this point. The size of the golum is of such a magnitude that it is virtually impossible to alter their direction by means of regular communication. The only way to change the organization is to have a massive stop in membership and their sourse of funding. This is the only sound they will hear.
Is their antenna book not worth the effort buying and reading?
@@marcveary4146Get one of the older editions. I’ve got the 1988 edition-purchased it for $9.00 online.
I've seen this with the NRA and the AOPA. The CEO pay goes up and up as the organization goes downhill. Looks like the ARRL is going the same way. I watched the ARRL video on grounding. She didn't adequately emphasize the difference between a safety ground and an RF ground. She didn't communicate her message effectively. I do think she knows what she is talking about but she could have said it better. Thanks for adding to the discussion, Jim.
I did at my old age find much of it hard to follow from issue to issue. I did watch it more than once because I could not believe that there is no ground. I thought perhaps that I got it wrong. Overall, it was not a resonable well thought out helpful presentation suitable for amateur radio operators so that they could use at their station. In other words, it failed. In my video, I tried to be helpful and explain how I do bonding and grounding in my room. I did not discuss grounding or lightning protection at the antenna. That is another long discussion. 73, Jim W6LG
I think she's talking about a GFCI breaker, which does indeed trip the breaker in the event of a ground fault.
AC safety grounds, lightning protection, and RF grounds are all different things. Bonding your equipment to an AC ground is fine for safety. But AC grounds generally are high impedance paths to RF, and are poor lightning and RF grounds.
My main concern with grounds are lightning and fire safety and protecting my equipment. AC safety should already be a given thanks to the NEC.
For lightning and RF grounds, you need short, straight low inductance paths to ground rods, not a 14ga wire twisting and turning through the walls of your house going 50 feet back to the electrical panel. That ground bar at your equipment needs a good low impedance path through the wall to a ground rod close by, and that ground rod needs to be bonded outside to the electrical panel ground rod. I have a ground rod outside of the shack cable entrance where I mount all my coax surge protectors, and I have a ground rod at the base of each of my masts and towers they tie to. All of my ground rods are then bonded together with #6 buried in the ground and connected to the outside electrical panel ground rod. The equipment ground bar is tied to the rod at the shack cable entrance. Each piece of coax or control cable goes through a surge protection device before it enters the shack. Avoid any sharp bends in the #6 wire connecting the masts, ground rods, and shack ground together.
After the antenna cables go through the surge protectors outside, they all terminate in a patch panel. Cables also run from each radio's antenna jack to this patch panel. Patch jumpers allow me to quickly and easily connect any radio to any antenna. When I'm done in the shack, the patches are removed, disconnecting the radios from the antennas.
Thanks, Jim. Based on your very informative videos, I have made changes!
Thanks Jim!
Thanks Nick. 73, Jim
Per Mike Holt , A ground rod will neither remove a shock hazard nor trip a breaker . Current wants to go back to its source not to ground . That being said , ground rods and and the source are bonded , so they do help to a degree.
Next automotive convention: Breaks are a myth!
Thank you Jim. There is a reason the NEC. requires Proper Grounding and sets the Methods to follow. I cant imanage the ARRL would Approve this Line of thinking. You are spot on with your presentation. Best wishes 73'
The guys throughout history that actually figured this stuff out, all actually built things and tested them. That is what separates them from the modern college educated engineers who are trained to run high end computer software and equipment. I was wondering when you were going to make this video! 73, KF0BBU
I make videos when I feel I have enough energy and brsins folllowing chemotherapy. I am loosing teeth and hair this week. And, it shows. 73, Jim
Thanks for this video. I have a number of issues to address while planning my home shack, and this helps fill in at least a few of the puzzle pieces. Now if I could just figure out what sort of antenna to put up....
A dipole is a good place to start. 73, Jim
Thank you for the truth and useful diagram. ❤❤❤
Thanks Jim. I always learn something new and interesting from your videos.
My old house I just moved from had the ground on a cold water pipe. There was no way to drive in a ground rod. You had about 3 inches of dirt over bedrock. The house was in an ancient riverbed (Long since dry). There was a near miss with the new owner when the connection on the pipe loosened up and went to sparking. There was almost a fire. The house was built in the 1920s. I had gotten the last of the knob and tube wiring out of it about 12 years ago.
I don’t yet fully understand grounding, but the electric code clearly indicates that equipment should not be bonded to a separate ground rod unless that rod is in turn bonded to the electric panel ground rod. Thanks for stressing the importance of following the electric code.
That's my read on the subject. Also, there are specifics about how that should be done. Thanks for pointing that out. 73, Jim
Jim, thanks for the great video.
Question: if all of my equipment is powered from a DC power supply that has 3 wire ground, is that sufficient? I.e. are they essentially all bonded with respect to AC safety? Thanks!
I walk on it nearly every day... It isn't a myth. The phrase "touch grass" comes to mind. 😆 Cheers.
Indeed.
Just revised circuits on a subpanel in my garage (with permit & inspection). I'm setting up my shack and wanted my radio gear on its own circuit. No amps, so one circuit will be enough. Lights are separate, and I do have an outlet there run from the circuit for my work bench outlets on the other side of the garage to operate a small heater. Only one of the circuits is protected by a GFCI OUTLET. On the others I installed GFCI BREAKERS, so if they detect ground fault, it will trip the breaker and require a reset. The panel is less than 25 ft from the most distant outlet, so that's not inconvenient. I have arc fault protection (AFCI) on most circuits, though that's not required in a garage (in 2024).
It is a subpanel, so ground and neutral are not tied together there. Ground goes back to the Main panel and is tied to neutral there. The inspector found a defect missed by the previous owner's subpanel inspection. The subpanel box was not bonded to its ground bus - ouch. Because it was a Siemens box, I ordered the bonding screw from a supply house for ridiculous, if still minor, expense ($1.25 + $14 shipping) and now have several lifetimes' supply of Siemens bonding screws - 9 remaining from a 10-pack.
In most of WA, electrical permitting is a state process rather than local, and it's pretty easy and not terribly expensive. Just read the applicable NEC carefully so you stay in compliance.
I'm still in the process of learning HAM radio (in the UK) and I got also confused with the grounding. They recommend an RF ground but at the same time explain that the main electrical ground could be at a different potential that the RF ground (rod of copper in the ground). Then it seems safer to me to only use (as Jim advices) the main ground, however I suppose you add RF choke on the wire to prevent noise to come from the house to RF equipment and the other way round too. Am I correct?
Hey Jim, where did your video about the Retevis email go? I was going to use it to show someone.
I am a retired Broadcast Engineer. I add another definition to the mix. STATIC DRAIN. A Ground is a direct connection to earth and other grounded objects. A Static Drain is a much less direct connection to earth and other grounded objects. A Drain will drain off small charges but will not take the brunt of a lightning strike. OH, do not unground anything!! Keep ALL ground pins on electrical plugs!!!! Here's the key...... DO NOT make an expensive piece of equipment the fuse for lightning. In my career I came to understand which ways lightning tends to go.... AND.. which ways lightning tends to avoid. Give lightning a HEAVY and DIRECT path to ground.
We had two lightning strikes. Not to my three towers but to the power lines. A TV and some small wall warts were damage. The main panel was also damaged as it took the brunt of the hit. The buss bar was damaged. My fear about the title implies that things need not be grounded. Things like washer, dryer and refrigerator. Bob Heil recommended along with Gordo, I think, cutting off that pin to stop loops. Which is not a good idea. 73, Jim
So let me see if I understand what you're saying: All ground lugs on equipment (radios, tuners, etc) go to a busbar via equal length strap/braid and the busbar gets grounded to the mains ground via an outlet? What about antennas/masts/towers and coax? I assume they get grounded to a ground rod outside that's tied to the mains ground rod?
Not covered in this video. NEC Chapter 8 provides a lot of information and requirements that must be followed. Mike Holt has some videos on antennas, etc. 73, Jim
Jim, great presentation. I live on the 7th floor of an apartment building. I was told by a sales person at DXEngineering to buy 6 guarge battery cables and connect each piece of equipment with a direct run to a copper bus bar. I am not close to the breaker box for my unit so I cannot ground it as you recommend. Also, I would be affraid to touch the box other than to turn on/off a circuit breaker. All of the equipment is plugged into a TrippLite Isobar. I did not connect my Delta-2 antenna switch to the bus bar. Do I need to do that? if so, where is the connector on it? Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks 73 KE0WNL
Thanks Jim from VE8AP your looking good sir
My blood tests tell a different story. They are done twice a week. Seven times in the hospital in intensive care in the last 18 months. ANC was zero. WBC was .4. I am hoping for an increase. In the meantime, no visitors allowed. Ham radio is my only way out of the house. Sun is up and I am going to check the long path now. 73, Jim W6LG
Jim I have a simple question. My basement station includes 3 transceivers a matching tuner and a few other associated devices all of them attached to a battery bank that is trickle charged by solar. My attennas are grounded via lightning protectors outside. I have the radio equipment tied together but no ground to the panel. Is this correct? I follow everyone of your videos. Thank you for them Brian VE3GUE
Thank you Jim for all of the great info... got my station all grounded.! KQ4TBA
Excellent!
Great video as always Jim. Just out of curiosity, if all the components of the station are connected to the power supply, and the power supply is connected to the earth via the third pin on the plug, aren’t all the components then grounded as well?
They are not. 73, Jim
Hllo Jim - I understood from that ARRL talk that it was referring to an RF Ground myth. An electrical (mains) ground is very necessary.
That is not correct. The ARRL is saying that all ground is a myth. I too watched the video three times. Keep in mind the title of the presentation: Ground is a Myth. 73, Jim
@ham-radio I only watched it one time. I think she made her point. I agree, Ground is a myth. She started by laying out what she meant by ground the electrical concept, and then stuck her sword in that mythical dragon until it was slayed. There are many things we do that we refer to as "ground" in electrical systems. These may be important for function, safety, and required by code. I didn't come away from the talk, feeling she said we shouldn't do these things. We can still use the word "ground" and still do these things, but the Earth is not a copper sphere so let's let go of the myth and treat "ground" as just annother wire in the circuit to provide function, safety, and/or comply with a code. I will watch it again. Maybe I missed something.
I'd like to see what ARRL's "experts" will say on the stand when the the attorney of a silent key's widow asks why ARRL has explicitly discouraged the use of bonding and grounding in the shack... (de kg5ar, BSEE, MS, EI)
That occured to me too. So, I said that this is how I did it. I tried not to say that you must do it my way. I did not discuss lightning except to mention a listed device in the coax that is connected to the common point ground at the main panel. My degrees are in business and finance. I have never taken a course in electronics and it shows. After my videos are released there is one guy with a Phd who will write a long, very long email about what I did wrong. Thanks, Jim W6LG
Ironic I stumbled on this, I have an antenna up for about 5 years, Never has it been hit by lightning
It’s at 65 foot. Just put up another same height up for about a month and it already got a direct hit.
I been trying to get it grounded, but other things came up and just didn’t get to it.
Now it all has to come back down since it’s pretty much done. Both radios are fried as well, so yeah grounding is a good thing😂
Thank you very much, Jim. You are absolutely right! Thanks for making this video.
You are very welcome
I live in the Tampa Bay area which was more lightning than any ware else in the the rest of the country. My philosophy is some protection is better than no protection. I do have my antenna connected to a gas discharge tube lightning arrester which is connected to copper 8 foot ground rod with 6 gauge cooper wire. My radio is insured for lightning damage and I disconnect the coax lead in when not in use. The power supply for the radio has a grounded 3 prong plug. My situation is not perfect but its the best I can do. Gary KJ4PHG
Each of your points here are in alignment with the ARRL presentation. She discussed the fact that she was talking about RF ground only. She kept saying that grounding for lightning and safety are still very important, but running a shack ground wire down two floors to get an RF ground is fruitless. I am sorry you thought you were in disagreement; however, I did find the ARRL title a bit misleading, but I think it was to get the attention of those that still search for RF grounds in a ground rod. Both of you make the same points. The best you can do with RF is to keep all equipment at a "common" potential with heavy bonding wire. For me, braided bonding has worked fine indoors, away from the weather. Once I started bonding my equipment together and added line chokes to the coax, my rf-in-the-shack problems went away. Oh, yea, going QRP portable helped convince me as well. No ground rods, no rf burns, great fun. --Mark, KE6BB
Then I missed the point or perhaps the title should be changed to RF Ground. Thanks, Jim
Great explanation Jim!
Question: can you tie the copper pipe to a ground in an outlet near by?
I think I said that.
@W6LG I loved this. Your video prompted me to watch the other video (ARRL video) again, and it left me with more questions about where concepts may have gone astray. If someone could do a couple point by point explanations of the contradictory info it would be great to learn from.
ON ANOTHER NOTE.... I see a lot of ARRL-bashing in the comments here, which worries me because this was a lecture on just one topic and from just one expert, not necessarily representing the entire direction of the ARRL and its role in advocacy of the field. The bashing could be less IMO. I feel like the ARRL has done awesome things over the years, and also, they have been valuable recently with regard to FCC's consideration of symbol rates. The ARRL was on the side of making sure the rules can keep up with technology in this particular case.
She speaks with the authority of being the ARRL Vice President. It is not my purpose to go through her video point by point. She explains her views and analysis point by point. With respect to ARRL bashing, the ARRL Board of Directors needs to be bashed. The ARRL is losing members at an alarming rate. I have been told by a Director that the CEO has earned over $1,000,000 in the last three years during the decline of members and respect. The Annual Report has not been published as it should have been. We are left with speculation about last years performance of the management of the ARRL. If the ARRL does not change direction, it will fail. If you think that is not possible, look at other companies that have failed in the last few years. The bashing of the ARRL is the result of the ARRL. I am a Life Member and I do not want the ARRL to fail. The organization needs to change. The bashing that they get is a result of what they are doing. Thanks for your thoughtful comments. Regards, Jim Heath W6LG
Ground is real! Just fall off the roof and you will know.
As a RF tech 30+ years deep, most "spooky" problems are due to poor grounding. I like the term floating ground because it correctly describes a vehicle, vessel or aircraft. Jim referred to the term bonding and there is truth in that. Everything needs to be tied to a common reference.
The nice part about properly grounded equipment is no tingles and you won't zorch your equipment after walking across the carpet.
Unless it's an IC-718, that requires internally grounding the tuner shaft to the chassis because Icom forgot to do that.
Excellent explanation of ground usage and connection, thanks.
You are welcome!
I've been told same things as you've said Jimmy but, how bad of an idea is it to "bond" to the ground of my outlets? For reference, I have very low resistance to the electrical box, (2nd fl shack) and a very heavy duty separate service to my shack. Somewhere in time, I have been told to not do this...Your thoughts Jimmy?
As I said in the video more than once, yes. 73, Jim
A complex subject which is not easy to get your head around! One point I would like to make regarding earth loop 'hum' - with amateur radio equipment it is normally designed to work off of battery or separate mains PSU, so it is 'doubly insulated' - it does not use the mains earth to provide safety or bonding. Earthing the way you illustrate with a star connection is exactly what is needed - no earth loops and everything has a common reference. I used to live on 13th floor and you could light a traditional bulb between the electric earth and the water earth! Earth is an inaccurate description, as would 'ground'. They are concepts whereas bonding is a reality and is what we need to exercise. Take a look around a high power transmitting station (especially a LW or MW one). You will find lots of copper connecting things together to create a common bond. Even then you can still light bulbs between earths! A standard 'trick' when in the antenna field to check if the transmitter was on air was to create an arc between the barbed wire fence and the 'earth' wand (bonded to the station 'earth'). If you got an arc, the transmitter was on.... I would not trust the opposite statement though!
Outstanding video sir. 73.......Mike - K2CDM
Thanks for watching
Hey Jim, I have a question. If I connect my equipment etc. to a copper rod in my shack as you showed, and I drill a hole in my floor and connect a copper wire from that rod to the steel frame of my mobile home, is that enough? I think I only have a sub panel in my mobile home and not a main panel with a ground rod. My main panel is 50ft. from my mobile home and that has 1 or 2 ground rods. Thanks.
Just follow the advice in the video. 73, Jim
Ground is REAL! otherwise it wouldn't be in the NEC. 73
Best way I have read/heard someone explain it to me is RF ground is 'the other side of your antenna'. Applies to most antennas we come across like dipole, verticals or their variations. A poorly balanced antenna will find that other half, hence why people get RFI problems with some un balanced antennas.
Safety earth ground, is somewhat different topic. reality is most modern equipment is safe with third prong slot on electrical plug into any home built in the last 65 years or so.
Then there is that whole other can of worms of grounding for lightning protection...
The other side of a dipole is NOT an RF Ground. Radials are NOT an RF Ground. I don't know where that comes from and it makes no sense at all. RF is AC. 73, Jim W6LG
You are quite correct. The name of ARRL presentation should have been "Ground is often mislabeled" I spent 20 years as an electrical field engineer working for an electric utility. I was very disappointed by the presentation. Early electrical systems in rural areas only used one wire to provide distribution. The return was quite literally the earth. Of course some areas the soil is not very conductive and therefore a rod or two driven in to the ground does not give you a good ground. When we grounded transmission lines or substations we tried to achieve one ohm or less with a meggar.
RF grounds are a different animal. A radio wave transmitted through the air does not a have a return path. However, ground planes are real and are necessary for many antenna systems.
She makes the point over and over that Ground is a Myth. She is not saying it is mislabelled. Thanks, Jim W6LG
One thing I am confused about is. Alpha delta switch instructions clearly say do not bond with other equipment. Run a ground wire directly to ground rod.
So you need to ask them. 73, Jim
@@ham-radio point is they have lightning protection in them, so you would not bond them to other equipment. I watch your videos and know that you know what you are talking about. Your videos are greatly appreciated. I thought that maybe you just misspoke about the alpha delta switch.
I think that I said there needs to be a listed device connected to the coax and connected to the common point ground at the main panel. I wonder about devices that claim lightning protection like that switch. Seems like it could be more about marketing than actually doing anything. The MOV will short with a spike. Lightning would go through the switch even with the MOV. So bonding the switch seems reasonable to me. 73, Jim
“RF grounding” seems to be poor use of terminology when discussing lightning arresting the RF gear from a direct tower strike.
Thanks Jim
I have a copper bonding bar mounted on the wall behind my desk that goes to a MFJ window passthrough to my ground rod outside. Why is the ground rod bad?
Because the breaker supplying power to the outlets your gear is plugged into will not trip if not grounded back to your main electrical service ground
Could you go over a very simple set up that does not involve alternating current? For example somebody who is operating with a battery.
Sure. But not much changes. I will think about your question and answer. 73, Jim
Since the grounds and the neutrals are connected together at the main service entry point, "ground fault current ( current that does not return on the neutral in the monitored circuit from the hot)" can also return to the transformer feeding the property on the neutral, or center tap if you like even if returning back to the circuit through a ground rod. It can also take the path of earth ground but is more likely to return on the service neutral.
To make the statement that ground is a myth in my mind demonstrates a gross misunderstanding of electrical power distribution systems.
Of course it does. Hence the ground rod or Ufer rod at the main panel and a rod at the center tap of the pole pig. They are not there just for looks. 73, Jim W6LG
Thanks Jim !!
Question, my powersupply 230V ac. Is connected maincable to Earth.
-and connected to the bonding device( cupper pipe)
The bonding device is connected to Earth.?
Thanks!!
Theo PA0HTY
Then you created an Earth loop connectie. 7:43
Solution?
Powersupply not connected to Earth ?