Totally agree, I'm a 65 year old total amateur who got to grade 3 piano when I was 10. I dug out my 25 year old yamaha keyboard during lock down and enjoyed playing it so much I bought the psr sx 900 in 2020. Played pretty much every day since then just in my own home, self taught but best move I've made. Great videos Woody.
The subtle humor in this video... Brilliant! :D Even the bit with deliberately editing-in the fragments from the wrong camera (the one that Woody were not looking into at the moment) and other basic editing and recording "mistakes", subtly exaggerated for comedic effect that would suggest having a big distance to the opinions of "cheesyness". :D
In the 80's I grew up in music retail (keyboards, guitars, organs etc.) and right now I've been working for over a decade in similar music retail, just an order of magnitudes larger (175M/y). So, I grew up with models like the Roland E-series (E20, E70, E86, Pro-E etc.), the large organs from Technics, Eminent, Yamaha, General Music and many others. So I've been there since the beginning of auto-accompaniment. Being a writer for retail nowadays, I occasionally add/describe modern keyboards/arrangers to our webshop. Including this Genos, but also the Korg PA-series, the recent Ketron-models, and similar. It shocked me how little has changed between now and then (80's, 90's). Keep in mind that back then the ROM-sizes for samples were probably around 4 MB. Maybe a little less, maybe a little more, but in those orders of magnitudes. Nowadays? Usually close to a gigabyte or more. Everyone who endured the Akai CD days knows that given a certain size, things should sound decently. I mean, a full strings patch could cost 64 MB, but then it should sound decent. Yet, when I listen to all these modern keyboards, the cheese-factor is the same as in all those old vintage keyboards and organs. So, it can't be the sound. It's several other things. First: the word "style". As soon you want to present people with a list of styles, manufacturers tend to stick to old cliches. How many 'styles' are there in normal pop songs? Probably none, other than 4/4 bars. I mean, take Careless Whisper from G.M., it sounds nothing like an '8 Beat' in any keyboard. Take Dancing Queen from ABBA, it sounds nothing like a 'disco' from any keyboard. It's because these were just made as the producer saw fit. The producer didn't really bother himself about which style it is. So, as soon as you want to summarize the broad landscape of music with the word 'style', you're in deep sh*t already. Secondly: the way chords are played. In the diatonic system there are three majors and three minors, but the triads remain identical. So the system wouldn't know whether you want a dorian minor or a normal minor, or a lydian major or a mixolydian major. It can't know based on simple chord play. That's when things get cheesy as well, the ideas one has just can't be fleshed out well. It's for this reason that intros, fills and endings are usually more interesting than the simple chords. Yes, that's because in those intros and endings the makers of the arrangements allowed themself to make more interesting arrangements. Related: basses. Now, some might play with loose pedals, that's good. But many aren't. So, if you play the notes C D F A, will that be a Dm7 with a D in the bass, or a Dm with a C in the bass? More limitations, more cheese, more Swiss cheese holes in musicality! Also: sound. There's this notion that instruments somehow must always be realistic. Now, look at your average Kontakt library. It's not easy to work with, there's a lot of manual work to be done. The right articulations, playing off-grid to let the end of a legato be alligned on the grid etc. etc. That won't work well with keyboards. I'd say that all acoustic instruments in a keyboard, including the high end models that get released these days, are terrible. And that makes it sound cheesy. It would be so much better if there would be more focus on synthetic sounds, at least there's no real-life counterpart for them, so no-one can claim that the sounds don't sound realistic. In a way I always find it adorable when some keyboard manufacturer claims they've invented something new. Like legato samples. Just decades after they were *really* invented though. And always used in a cheesy way. Added together, I think the keyboards/arrangers from 20 yrs into the future will still be cheesy, as the problems sketched above can't easily be solved, unless someone invents an alternative way to somehow inject musical intentions and proper scales into the mix. But that won't be easy. Yea, you know what will happen? I've seen it with the PA-4x already: people rather playback MIDI-files, or whatever format, while only playing the melody-line themself. Because then you do get proper arrangements; custom-built. One might wonder whether it'd make more sense to just AI-remove the melody from original audio, and just play over it with any instrument, rather than buying these semi-computers we call 'cheesy keyboards'.
Good points, all. I do wish MIDI A.I. would hurry up and develop a genuine creative, melodic sensibility. I've played around with a fair few of the current programs claiming to be 'A.I.' but they are all incapable of creating something pleasing to the ear that sounds credible. Just my opinion.
This was a very good and interesting post. I often listen to videos of Yamaha keyboards on YT. I always like the Tyros 3 (three) because of the sounds, which all still sound like a real synthesizer. And I've always loved the synthesizers. Own a KORG Karma and a Yamaha CS6. Both impress with their sounds. However, the operation is not exactly user-friendly. Merci bien. ;))
I am an older adult who started my musical journey a bare 3 years ago. and because of youtubers like you, I have two keyboards. one a yamaha p-515 for my music lessons and for learning the muscle memory of how to play a piano/keyboard.. and a yamaha psrsx700. I love the arranger keyboard for the sheer joy of being able to have an expansive library of voices, and the styles are just fun.. they enable me to sound like a musician and have a ton of fun doing it. everyone's musical journey is different.. keep on doing what you do
Brilliant video Woody ! I agree with every word. Yes, I'm nearly 70, a self taught home hobbyist, and I play my Genos (1) at home, mostly for my own comfort & gratification, although I do occasionally post my wobbly efforts on my TH-cam channel to give me a goal to aim at. I'm a sight reader and a lot of my music was left to me by my father so you can imagine the era I play mostly. Many happy memories of family sing-songs when dad played his reed organ ( foot pumped! ), piano accordion or trombone. The mid 80's is about as modern as I get. OK I also play in a band, but it's a brass band & I play the tuba. I have become very stuck in a rut and I have been toying with purchasing a synth to add to the Genos so I can experiment with new sounds and ways of playing before I finally descend into senility. Updating to a Genos 2 would leave me stuck in this rut, albeit with some newer sounds but, as I am unwilling to fork out a quoted £3100 (GBP) to trade in my Genos for the "2", I am investigating the cheaper option of adding either a Modx 6+, a Roland Fantom 06, or an Akai MPC Key 61 to my Genos. I don't want to start a flame war but, is there anyone out there who can offer advice on this or is in a similar position to me ? Thank you for all of your videos Woody, I find them fascinating and inspiring.
I started with arranger keyboards back in late 80s, attending Yamaha's music school, specifically for arrangers back then. I've changed many arrangers since then and bough my last one (PSR-2100) in 2003. But after that I was fatigued with the whole concept of auto-accompaniment and styles which make the whole thing sound like someone else is playing. I also wanted to get some freedom in the left hand, as the arranger only really uses blocked chords. So I now a have a MODX+ (and a Montage) and this is definitely very different. The closest thing to styles on these are the arpeggios, which are very powerful in those two, but still not the same thing as styles. But there is a lot of freedom and choice in finding or creating your own sounds, adding effects, splitting the keyboard to up to 8 parts and so on. It's a different world. I suggest you give this a try and maybe combine it with your Genos1 for an all-round setup. The fantom 06 would also be an amazing choice, and will give you some different overall sounds than the Yamaha (Probably the AKAI too, though I haven't seen that one).
@@sonic2000gr Thanks sonic200gr, your input is much appreciated. I've had arrangers for years, building up to the Genos but I've never had a synth so I'm looking forward to learning something new. At my age the word "dementia" becomes terrifying and keeping the brain active with new ideas is supposed to help stave off the big "D". Enjoy your music making and happy new year.
I've been using arrangers for 25 years...I always pair one with a workstation, digital piano or synthesizer...the sound and perception really changes with those instruments when used together.. arrangers are fun and quick to work up a new tune...also, you can easily remove parts of the styles to not sound so repetitive...always enjoy your videos...kudos.
Me too. I use a cheap Yamaha 473 arranger keyboard together with an Arturia keyboard (and a sh.tload of fantastic vst’s - try Arminator - , a MOX6 and an Arturia Keystep sequencer. Plus Reaper. Endless possibilities, and the arranger helps to get going fast. Once you have the tune/song going you can fiddle around with the rest to make it more than just “cheezy”
I always keep one arranger keyboard. Yes, most of the styles sound cheesy, but if you silence the excessive arrangements in those styles and keep the bass and drums, then an arranger becomes useful. Our brains hate monotonous music … reduce it. I also added bass pedals … so I could play with my foot more complex and less automatic bass parts. The arranger is good for layering sounds on the left or right side … with minimal auto arranged parts played
My cheese factor is actually a bit different than the points you mentioned. For me it's in the styles themselves. They trigger an uncanny valley effect in me as they almost sound like the original but not 100%. But the worst thing in my opinion is the that the styles sound like perfectly produced studio versions of the songs and not like an emotional live performance. When I go to a concert then I want the latter,
I never get tired of your performances, none of them sound cheezy to me. You are a fantastic keyboardist, don't ever lose your style and your delivery. BTW I love the shirt you are wearing.
I'm a musician and play many instruments, but I do love playing on an arranger. Nothing beats the sound of a live band, but sometimes you just wanna jam out on your own and the arranger makes is perfect for that. It's fun and I embrace the cheese.
Of course, they are cheesy. There is no doubt about it. But they are so much fun to play. Not necessarily fun to listen to, but who cares about the neighbors when you have a headphone out :) And the best is - you have a wide variety of cheese to choose from! 40 years of cheesiness at your service to be found at ad and auction sites for almost nothing. I settled with a Roland RA50. It is out of this world and beyond sanity :)
Great video, Woody. The clue lies in the term 'arranger'. Those with a background in orchestration and arranging will tend to get the best out of the Genos, as they have the knowledge of different instruments and how they are played and combined. Couple of examples: use 'wide' voicings in strings, not triads, and if you're playing a brass or wind sample, remember that in real life the player has to breathe between lines! At its best, the Genos is an orchestra in a box, capable of coming up with music even fellow musicians will appreciate. But like every other instrument, it takes skill, knowledge, practice and above all TASTE to make it worth listening to!
agree with so much here - its just a shame that for those with the said background - such arrangers dont offer more support in the use cases with a DAW
I got my first “Arranger” back in the 1980s and have added another one every few years as features and sounds improved. I think one of the best feature improvements in recent years is the ability to not just have style variations but to be able to customize them by muting individual style tracks. This gives even greater musical variation.
Your commentary is bang on! I play once a week in a retirement residence and both the residents and I enjoy "the cheese." 😊 Non musicians want to hear a song they know or has a good beat, and the Genos does it so well! Ad you say, I happily embrace the cheese and everyone I play for does too! Thanks so much for posting this video! Love your channel!
I stand by my original comment on your very first video on this (as a ex Yamaha homeworld employee, who worked with Richard Bower Uk Brand ambassador for TYROS) “no-one does cheese like Yamaha” they have their place, they have their audience, you cannot fault the sample quality, it was never a criticism of you, your playing(which is great by the way)
Great points, well made Woody. To my ears arrangers sound cheesy AF but the non-musician public seem more than happy listening to them. For me personally - I feel arrangers “do too much for you” and as a result are no good for practise if your objective is to improve your solo performance.
I can totally see this. I don’t yet have an arranger keyboard but am attracted to the usefulness of what they can provide. But on the other hand as a former piano student many years ago i aspire to get to playing solo piano again. So do i get a Genos2 and another keyboard players keyboard?
Hi Woody! An entertaining video to be sure! You are exactly right when you say that the reason arrangers can sound cheesy is because people tend to replace what would usually be sung by a singer with a a sound of an instrument. I never thought about that before but it is really true! Sing to the accompanying music instead of playing and all of a sudden, the performance becomes believable. You are also right when you say that the large majority of audience, perhaps all, don’t care if it sounds synthetic. I always remember this instance where I was at an engineering convention - I am a bit of a bore and tend to like the “dry stuff” - while a colleague of mine who was there with me preferred to hang out in the lounge of the hotel where the convention was held, enjoying his espresso. When the lecture ended, I joined him and there was this fellow playing a Yamaha Tyros (3rd generation by the looks of it) and accompanying a pretty female singer. Some sort of a jazz fusion thing. When I came to my colleague’s table, he immediately stood up and said “Don’t sit, we are leaving!” Not because of the music, obviously, but because the small espresso was 8 Euro! The lounge was chock full of customers and they were happy to spend their money. Just bring your arranger keyboard and find a decent singing and looking singer and you are on your way! But my fondest memory is from my college days when I was at a party with a friend and instead playing music, some guy brought a Yamaha PSR-550 arranger. This was in 2003 I believe but I still remember the model number. It used diskettes for data storage but man, what a great party! The guy knew all the songs and could played them instantly and everyone was having a great time just singing and socialising. Woody, I also want to tell you I really like your sense of humour. You went out of your way to make the Genos 2 sound as cheesy as possible! It was really hilarious! Cheers!
Yesterday night I played in a big pub with my rock band. With two midi controllers and a vast collection of VSTs. I had a lot of fun. Being 59 yo, I know that this will not last very long. I soon will be forced to stay home alone. Then I will buy an arranger. To have fun alone. Who cares about cheesy sounds... I love Parmigiano Reggiano
Great video. Like you said. It depends on the repertoire. I have a psr-SX900, and I mostly play popular songs in my own version by using funk, ballads, jazz, and other expansion samples styles like reggae, kompa, latin, african etc. Every other musician asks me where I get my "beats/rhythms." It's about how good player you are and how you use your creativity.
Psr-sx900 is awesome, I have one too and would not trade it for a Genos 2 or for anything. It has great guitar sounds and if you put effects on the drums they won't sound flat.
Totally agree ! The way you musicaly use all the functionality of an instrument like the sx900 is a thing that is really important , I love this instrument I bought a half year ago. Greetings from the Netherlands
@@andybond5002It’s Genos2, and I’m sure that if somebody offered you a straight swap you would take it. All you mean right now is you would like one but can’t afford it, which is fine - it’s a big chunk of cash.
@@X22GJP Not saying that Genos2 is not a great instrument, I would love to get one but I'm happy with the SX900. If someone would swap my SX900 to a Genos2 I would take it, then go ahead and buy another SX900 so I can have both :))))
@@johnvalk Wow, I actually bought it when I was on vacation in Rotterdam last year. I live in Curaçao, and it was cheaper to get it in the Netherlands vs. order one from the US.
You've got it spot on as always! I don't really think of myself as "pro" at all; but there's a musical side of me that is thrilled at plopping in front of the latest Montage, Nord Stage, or like flagship wonder machine and having a tickle thru the cutting-edge sounds, while building and shaping new ones. Where the rubber meets that road, is that no one ELSE is going to particularly enjoy (let alone pay to hear) that, and it's just as you've said exactly! Anyone I've ever entertained (hopefully, at least partially) comes to drink, dance, chat, reminisce etc. Plonks and chirps, the odd synthesized howl or wonderful solo tone, simply isn't framing this experience for them. I have heard some restaurant musicians on very inexpensive and small keyboards, paint a wonderful set of very enjoyable, danceable, and harmonious music...on what any pro musician would consider, much less than ideal equipment. I think the Genos 2 specifically is a smashing board, and one I'd love to have and play on. On either of my current synths the process of setting up (recording, playing back, etc.) songs to play as you would on this arranger, would be difficult or next to impossible. I say pass the cheese; it tastes really good, and most people prefer it with their music if they're being perfectly honest.
Ive been playing since I was 4. Im self-taught, and I also took piano lessons for a while, learning the Suzuki method, which essentially allows you to play "by ear" eventually. My very first keyboard was a Yamaha PSS-400 bought back from Hong Kong. Much later on, after a succession of "entry level" Yamaha PSR keyboards, my first arranger was a PSR-S900, and three years ago, a PSR-SX900. I have always found that the styles on an arranger keyboard are "more professional sounding", and actually emulate the sound of a live band very well. Thank you for another video Woody
I have a reggae back round playing with Jamaican artists. I used to despise the cheesy horn patches knowing that I wanted a full on horn section to get that sound. Well guess what you cant always hire a horn section out. Vocalists points to you Mr. Keys. I have learned to love and embrace the cheesy patches. I love them so much. Thank you woody for all your videos. It was because of your Korg M1 uploads that I convinced my father before he passed to loan me the money to but an M1 from craigslist. It came with the brass card. That has all the cheesy horn sounds from the 90's !! Respect. May the cheese live on.
when the arranger keyboard is fully programmable it is one of the best things to have. lesser models can play the data but cannot do a full arrangement of the music. I hope to get me a Genos someday even though the Tyros5 76 key is good enough for me. I already have a PSR-900sx and I'm in awe of what it can do. With all these instruments I think the one man band has finally arrived.
Great video Woody, I am a non- musician of a certain age and love my Tyros5, although i would love to own a Genos2. Unfortunately the money flies out of my wallet these days. I like to play the Tyros and i am happy when i hit 3 correct notes in a row. All cheesy songs offcourse So now i will rename my Tyros and call it Gouda 5 😜😂😂😂😂 Greetings from the Netherlands
Hey Woody. I watch most of your videos. I’m 65, just completed my bachelor of music degree in jazz piano, and have had a home studio with lots of gear. This video was one of the best. You hit the nail on the head play music for the majority of your audience. I plan to upgrade my tyros 5 to a Genos 2, and play over 300 events a year, solo instrumental lots of great American songbook jazz, but a few duos doing Motown, rnb, etc. once you learn how to use an arranger, you can charge top dollar as a duo that can compete with larger bands. My live rig for duos is a Nord stage 4 and Yamaha tyros 5, soon to be a Genos 2. Image what you can perform using a Nord stage 4 and Genos. Great job Woody. Why do we play music? If you play live, no one cares what gear you have, as long as they enjoy your show and like you and hire you back again.
Hello Woody! Thank you very much for this video! The opinion, you expressed here is absolut correct, I agree on every point, you mentioned. Let`s enjoy making music, for others and ourselves and learn to have more respect for every kind and style of music. If it makes people happy, we shouldn`t try to debate or destroy it. Just use and enjoy the instruments we have and try to get some fun out of it. I play the piano, keyboards and guitar, and I used to earn a little additional money as a keyboard entertainer in my younger years and still sometimes today (not so much as in the past). Thank you again for your very respectful video! Greetings from Blackforest in Germany....and a Happy New Year 2024 !😃👻
Woody, you knocked it out of the park on this topic! 💯 agree on the perspectives of novice music listeners versus musicians. I happen to be an arranger keyboardist of mediocre talent, and see both sides of the coin. The sophistication of the Genos series would allow someone like me to sound pretty good, but someone like you to sound phenomenal--because you have a vast mastery of the basics, and can perform many styles. Thus, in dropping $6K with my current skillset, I would be fantasizing to think I'd be an overnight phenom. Funny story: My first keyboard was a bit of a toy, with single note capability, a cassette compartment, and a handful of styles. The most I could do was play along with "real" songs. Then one day, I met a church organist, who asked to teeter with it. His fast-fingering and chord progressions literally knocked my socks off! He made my -$200 toy sound like a $2000+ instrument! Woody, it is as you've stated before: if you want to become a better musician, you must be prepared to put in the work, practice, and study. Precious and few are those who are just naturally gifted to skirt formal education. Buying the Genos 2 would not make me a better or more talented musician--although I'm sure I could play more songs. My PSR-S975 is a crowd pleaser because of my performance skills, and willingness to experiment with different sounds, octaves, tempos, and arrangements. The Genos series is "cheese" that pleases most if you are advanced enough to do it justice. If not, be happy with the keyboard that parallels your skill level.
thanks for the great comment! i agree of course but it struck me that some people like to have the very best even if they don't use it to its full potential. and that's fine. i guess it's like how you might want the best golf clubs even if you're a crap golfer. or a fast car to drive slow. there is pleasure in owning good equipment I guess.
@@WoodyPianoShack Great analogies! Woody, you are a very deep thinker! I guess I'm a bit of a hypocrite, in that I own pricy archery bows that don't align with my present target shooting ability. But they give me happiness and pride in mere ownership. 😁
I remember back when I had my Yamaha PSS-680, which for its time was a very sophisticated home arranger keyboard with features that even Genos2 currently lacks. I generally preferred the dance and more modern sounding stuff, but to this day I always remember thinking to myself, everything sounds like demo tracks. The pre-canned content will naturally give a rather generic sound even across different performers, but at least with Genos2 and modern arrangers, you do have the option to choose which bits of the style you want, their relative volumes, and layer up plenty of sounds so if you are more gifted in the composition arena, you’ll be able to produce far more original sounding stuff compared to somebody like myself. The sounds themselves are also much more impressive, and so it can always be used as a digital piano, organ, or basic synth across the full keyboard. Think of the backing as inspirational extras, rather than the focus. When all is said and done though, it does come down to having fun with things like this. I loved my PSS-680 and have been looking at synths like Montage M to scratch a music itch and noodle around on. However, I’m not great at sound design and am not really bothered about recording or layering up multiple synths. So really, what’s going to bring more smiles? An arranger keyboard could be just the ticket, and while a Genos2 would be lovely, a used Genos or even a lower end SX could be what I need to look for. The built in audio interface on the Genos2 is worth having though.
The reason why most workstation players play the melody line with their right hand is that we don't dare to sing :-) Also i play by ear, and it's not always easy to figure out how to play a song the way a "musician" would do. But i don't play to earn money, i play for fun, sharing the fun with like minded people, and visit and do keyboard workshops, so we can learn from each other. in other words, a great hobby, and i don't care that some folks dislike the Yamaha workstations, as long as I like it.
Your instruction and comments are very much appreciated! What i would like to see is a cool performance where you add your own playing. Then explain section by section how you used Genos 2 to accomplish it
If a band could play perfectly on the grid, it would sound cheesy, right? These machines are built to reproduce music perfectly and make it easy to access the sound. You can't simulate interaction between musicians who are constantly reacting to new requirements, moods and audiences.
Depends on how you use and play them. If you play cheesy music with cheesy sounds and styles then it'll sound cheesy, but this is down to taste. Someones cheese is another persons favourite style (musical snobbery effectively). As an ex-pro-entertainer, I've had to play what I consider cheese to entertain and get paid.....it's called playing to your audience. But, don't underestimate the power of these tools. The Genos 1/2 and Korg Pa5X are extremely helpful instruments in a live stage setting. I primarily use my Genos 1 to play backing tracks (midifiles - purchased from MidiSpot AP who make extremely well produced tracks), with phantom powered mic plugged in and straight into my PA. Real easy plugin and play.
I took about a year's worth of piano when I was 8 or 9. I never studied, I never practiced. I can't read bass clef and I don't know how to 'fake' a bass line. I'm on my third arranger keyboard (all Korg) and I really would like to get rid of my 13 year old PA800, and get a new PA5X and/or a Genos 2. Why? Because I can play them and make music for my own enjoyment. That's what it's all about, at least for me, and the people who hear me play usually enjoy it, although I am by no means a 'good musician.' This comes back to what you were saying, most people who are non-musicians don't hear the mistakes, don't understand what all goes into an Arranger Keyboard, and what doesn't go in, or come out of it. But, there are some really talented people who can take an Arranger Keyboard and make it sing, Alois Muller comes to mind. What Allie does with an arranger, Korg, Genos, whatever, totally blow my mind. What he accomplishes with a single keyboard, even something like a Korg PA700, really gives you a concept about what these can really do.
I think the point that was perhaps lost is that the Genos 2 (and arranger keyboards in general, for that matter) doesn't have to sound cheesy; it's merely the default position, but the Genos 2 is a hugely powerful keyboard and capable of just about anything. As ever, it's all in the hands (literally) of the artist using it.
You nailed this Woody! I started playing music on a family organ in the 80's. So the natural progression was to arranger keyboards. For more seasoned musicians, arrangers can provide a wealth of inspiration, especially when writing. But the cheese can certainly be served in bulk when using styles set to "busy level 11" and the OTS link set to "every instruments possible". The power of these instruments lies not in how they come out of the box. But rather, it's how they allow players to use the individual parts and pieces to craft their own music!
Trinity keyboard exams.. grades 1 -8 are solely for arranger keyboards. They are regarded no differently to the classical piano exams in terms of UCAS university points.
It's totally not the bad idea to learn the existence of the things like chords at the beginning of learning and the structure of simple chord progressions along with basic hand independence + right hand dexterity while left one is playing the chords. I started as a child on keyboard (1 year keyboard + 1 year piano) and it can change the way the information is stored in the brain. Now when I play something I memorize not only the key sequence, I also recognize and memorize the chords and harmonic changes during the song. That makes it easier and quicker to learn the whole song and recover after crashing while playing 😅
@@dwsel I totally agree…The keyboard exams seem to give the candidates are far greater understanding of the harmonic patterns and structures than the classical piano exam candidates.
Brave topic to dive into!! I have been critical of arranger keyboards in the past but I see your point, many many people love them. I guess I wish there was an arranger out there that could appeal to "musicians" and non musicians at the same time. How I would suggest that is, I know that there are midi performances, that's fine but some sounds just really stick out - brass and strings are the main culprit. If there was an arranger that had a little more nuance in those sounds I could see it appealing to more than one market - but that would be increased memory and costs and might not sell as well. Either way, good video Woody.
"Let's talk about cheese" ... proceeds to use nice cheese knife ... eats mystery cheese ... doesnt' talk about cheese! LOL nice one Woody! Seriously though - what kind is it? Havarti? Also, @ 5:30 - No idea what tune that was but it sounds fantastic and I'm sure it'd be a smash hit in grandpa's day. No reason we can't still listen and appreciate - in fact I think people who get stuck in a particular genre / style / era of music are REALLY missing out. Some of my favorite music would make 90% of people laugh, and you know what? Zero fu@ks given! 🤣 If you like it, then play it loud and enjoy it for real. Also - completely unrelated - I LOVE the Scandinavian minimalist vibe in the room you're in - it looks like an amazing place to relax and watch the snowpack rise to those gorgeous massive windows. Congrats on the new house!
I have the PSR-SX900 and I mainly use it for the the original sounds..Love the pianos, and acoustic guitars.. I just use the entire board.. I love being able to use three different instruments at one time. (countrolling octaves on each individual sound)I seldom really use the accompantiment, only when feeling cheesy, as they say...lol.. There are a few good set ups on the PSR, bu t I will be heading over to Sweetwater, to check out this new beast...
To you. Thank you for starting this video series. When I bought my harpsichord about 40 years ago, I was also offered e-boards. They sounded terrible, really cheesy. Since then, the sound has improved enormously. Offering now a touchscreen makes the Genos easy to use. Your presentation could even lead to the creation of a useful user manual. Keep up the good work!!! The sound of most high-end pianos, including Steinway, hurts my ears. I'm glad the Genos offers the ability to soften the sound. Thanks again for your efforts. R.
In 50 years all the arranger styles will be Gangster Hip Hop, Rotterdam Techno, Death Metal, K-Pop, Harry Styles, Cardi B, Reggaeton Styles ect when todays teenagers perform in their Senior😅 homes... 😅
I’m yet to hear a really heavy style on an arranger. Punk Rock and Heavy Metal genres are over 50 years old yet they are not in any arranger so far. Death metal is also not a new style. Would be nice to have a style with overdriven guitars produced by professionals.
This video is spot on I love my synths but I also love arranger keyboards they both have their own use case I used to read on some forums where people ignorantly claimed people who played these were not even real musicians but a lot of people got their start on an arranger or an organ with auto accompaniment. Cheers thanks for the video Woody.
Depends what people mean by musicians. They're more likely to be people who just play other peoples music, so they have the skills to play but possibly not have the skills to compose.
“Stir up emotions”? Why yes, I was laughing my ass off. You’re right about the audience, but arrangers don’t HAVE to be cheesy. There is a serious instrument there that can be played without any cheesy accompaniments. As for the hand held cheese slicer, I have one here in England. Yes it’s a nice bit of kit. I also have one that grates.
As a "purist", "serious" keyboard player (latest purchase being the Expressive E Osmose), I've always steered well clear of these arranger keyboards... BUT, I have to say, some years ago, I was blown away by the realistic nature of some of the sounds on the old Tyros series (the guitars were especially good). And I did own a Roland Disover 5 for a brief period a few years ago (demo video on my channel), and had so much fun with it. The song samples on there, and the clever use of the onboard samples (not a patch on the Genos) was impressive. So, I'm a little bit torn. Back in the 80s, I was in a number of cover bands playing a lot of the songs you've covered here. And a keyboard like this would have been a boon in the ski resorts and Mediterranean clubs I was working (in similar shirts to yours) - though I'm not sure that the drummer and bassist would have agreed! And you're definitely right about the consumer's perception of the sounds that you make - it take a certain type of nerdy keyboard purist to appreciate the weird and wonderful MPE sounds on the Osmose 🙂 Have to love me a little bit of cheese from time to time!
The reason arrangers sound cheezy is the non keyboard patches (sax, guitar, horns, bass) are coming from a synth and have that type of sound. The best idea to performing at a party is to have a karaoke playlist on TH-cam. Bring your keyboard, speaker, and a couple mics. Turn on the TV, log into TH-cam, play the karaoke version of songs on the TV. Everyone can sing while you play along on your keyboard. One or two people can hold the mic, but everyone can sing. I've done this at a couple parties and it was a hit.
Eh, here in the Netherlands we have chees slicers too, being a cheese loving country. And you're right, they are a great invention. By the way: cheezy is what you do with it, not the keyboard itself. And if you don't like the sounds then use or blend them with the ones you have in your DAW.
Hi Woody, I really enjoyed your video. I have been a keyboard player for nearly Sixty Years, still performing, and have had a lot of fun and good gigs playing my Korg arranger Keyboard. I play a lot of ABBA songs which seem suited to the “one man band keyboard “. Please keep posting. Ken in Scotland.
Years ago when I played with my own MIDI sequences, someone told me I'm over sequenced, and looking back he was correct. So that's number one...As a solo musician, I now lean to minimalist arrangements to match my look better. Often just drums, bass and my live keys, and there's something very organic about that. I very rarely use non-keyboard instrument sounds...to me they're the biggest offenders of being cheesy. So no sax, trumpet, electric guitar, etc for me. I always play piano, organ and synth sounds exclusively when playing live. Also, I always remove as many keyboard parts on the styles as possible so I can handle that live. Somtimes guitars on the styles won't suit my taste, so I may turn them off or down. Finally, I usually sing the melody, or play it with a keyboard instrument sound. I also play frequently with other guitar players, which is fantastic. In that case, I turn off most all the guitars and they handle that with 100% authenticity. I love my used mint Genos 1.
i have a very similar approach, usually, actual keyboard sounds only! especially when playing with bands. but i'm nowadays having fun going "all-in" on the saxes and guitars! congrats on the G1, nice pickup!
In 2012 I spent some time in the Yucatan, MX, and a guy had an arranger keyboard in a little bar down there. He was playing the latin styles, singing and playing solos. He was tearing it up and the crowd was having a blast all night! I love me some cheese!
I really appreciate these honest videos of yours Woody, and I totally agree. If you want to please the crowd, the cheese is inevitable. That goes for both instruments and repertoire, and the Genos/Tyros/PaX etc. were clearly made to produce crowd-pleasing music. Non-musicians will be bored to tears by me performing some classical piece on the organ, but will applaud loudly when I embrace the cheese factor and do an oldies medley for them to sing along to. But I will keep enjoying bizarre repertoire pieces and synth exploration, as well as a tasty slice of arranger cheese now and then. A good musical diet needs variation!
at 11:50 when you played "Raindrops keep falling on my head" I think I had a brain hemmorhage. Yes, you're absolutely right about audience-pleasers, and I know you're intentionally going for moldy cheese to make a point, but I'm smacking my forehead and saying "Stop! Please - stop!" Oh, the curse of ear training. 😁 Again, excellent video for challenging our music-geekyness.
I think you nailed it. Same thing goes for guitarists and tone. Audiences don’t care if you’re playing through an original Klon pedal or a digital modeler. Arranger keyboards also good for original composition work for those unfamiliar with DAW’s. The main issue with the Genos is the $5K price tag, I’d rather put that $5K towards a Groove 3rd Wave :).
There's a lot of sound editing features that a lot of people never delve into. Attack, decay, sustain, reverb are just the surface. I think if you play the pre-arranged instruments primarily, they might sound monotonous and a bit cheesy. But that's why you need to delve into the expressive capabilities and the sound editing features.
Generally speaking, people don’t buy arrangers to delve into sound editing. It’s not a synth, it’s a collection of pre-canned styles and sounds that allow relative amateurs and professionals alike to create entire songs on the fly.
@@X22GJP Yes, that is typically how an arranger keyboard works, but if people were concerned about it sounding cheesy, which I think was the point of the video, then the fact that this thing has those parameters that can be adjusted and the sounds can be customized and edited is something that should be pointed out to those who might be on the fence about it due to the "cheesy sound." It isn't as detailed in sound editing as my MODX+, but it does have plenty of options to change sound qualities for those concerned about it sounding "cheesy,"- again pointing out the title and the point of the video.
I've always liked these. I remember playing keyboards like this that are now over 25 years old, and people loved them back then also. Nowadays they are far better. Not perfect, but it's the same with proper quality sampled music in a DAW... if you are a musician, you can always tell. But to anyone who is not a musician, they don't care.
Fun video! Glad you put a breath of life into this topic and showed how unnecessarily serious musicians can get! Let’s loosen up! Hit the BOSSA NOVA 2 button with the tempo up to 125BPM and let yourself go! 🙂
Hi there Woody, You are so right about the general public not giving a crap about the cheese factor of these Arranger Keys. I played in a band called the "Party Boys in the 80's. The musicians in town, hated us, but we always got more bookings from people that liked the bands interaction with "Grandma, Grandpa and the kids. From dancing Conga lines in the Clubs or getting a older people up on stage and getting them to sing or what not.. Musicians thought we sucked ! -BUT we always were getting gigs at nice clubs and private parties! Cheers to Cheesy ! lol to add to the "cheese factor" we also wore Tuxes!🤣
I think what makes them sound cheesy is the lack of dynamics, like this one has fairly good samples but the instruments in the arrangements are played really flatly, and I've heard people programming more impressive MIDI arrangements using technically worse sounds (I'll say the guitars in the last jam were impressively programmed though). But I love things like the wavestate, wavestation etc. which can essentially work like these - one or a couple of accompaniment layers and a melody layer. It's really just a matter of making the accompaniment sound dynamic and interesting, and a lot of the standard arrangements on these do not, and thus sound cheesy.
Yes, Wavestate is what I call a 'possibility space' - quite literally anything's possible (and might or might not happen). It's a wonderful 'noodler's toybox', and very inspirational. So full of rabbit holes that one can disappear for hours just playing about with it.
@@joseluishernandezseptien that's not quite what I meant by dynamics, more expressiveness and non-rigidness to the performance, which actually can be emulated by a good programmer, but which is often lacking in these factory arrangements. As for your specific comment though - even on phone speakers you can often get a sense of if the phone doesn't make justice to the source material, with hints of the frequencies and dynamics it doesn't reproduce correctly, or if it's the actual source material that is lacking in detail.
Hardware synths are like a time machine to the previous century. With analog synths you can sound like the 70s, FM synths take you to the 80s and romplers are a 90s thing. Modular synths take you to the sound of the 60s and samplers are a 80s and 90s thing.
Yes and if you wait long enough it will all come back in fashion. 10 years ago people threw away early synthesizers without looking back. Now they sell for thousands of dollars.
I had a Yamaha PSR 740 back in the day ( still got this lovely keyboard) When Robbie Williams released “Feel “ I had arranged this on my keyboard within a few days and put it on a floppy disc as midi data. I took this to a pub where the keyboard player used to get singers up out of the audience ( those were the days) and used to get up and sing to my own arrangement. 😉😉
At 5.30 Let me guess that was the famous James Last style ? Brings back memories when his records were played at my home - only on family occasions though.
There are a lot of valid arguments in the video, however we should also examine the arranger from the scope of someone who is learning to play keyboards. It does have the effect of an "easy win" since you can start playing impressive songs with little effort, even as a beginner, however this will also hamper your development. You will learn lot of chords in the process and maybe you will get an adequate right hand technique (and good sense of rhythm) but you will get stuck playing auto accompaniment mode. I am saying this because back in the late 80s, Yamaha had music schools all over Greece that were teaching exactly this: playing arrangers (using some method books called, appropriately, "autorgan"). Now, I don't know if this was also happening around Europe at the time (Yamaha definitely had plenty of arrangers back then, including some nice PSS portables) but as this is where I studied myself, there is so much more to learn than that. So I guess it's not difficult to see why the target group for arrangers is mostly older people and pensioners :D
Dear Woody, you’re a great entertainer and an inspiration! Keep doing what you love, as that motivates us who now and again dust off an old synth or even an older Tyros to play some cheesy songs 😊 Those who don’t like your content are not your audience anyway! And they probably don’t like cheese either 😂
Cheese can be fun. Most people like cheese. We had a nice long holiday singalong last week as I played a Yamaha PSS-F30!! Now that is cheesy. But we had a great time!!
Because of the culture in Japan that regards music as a learning or artistic activity, arranger keyboards are regarded as "lazy people's instruments" or "instruments that can cheat," and are not popular at all. In fact, Yamaha Genos series, Roland E series, and Korg Pa series are not available in Japan except for a few products. In Japan, there is also a tendency to look down on instrumental music rather than vocal music, and some people even ridicule it as elevator music in the West. However, everyone has his or her own way of enjoying music. It is only when people can enjoy music in various ways that more people can come into contact with it. It is a wonderful thing to have an ear that can distinguish between good and bad music. However, when we start saying that others should also have that standard, confusion arises. Everyone should be free to choose how they enjoy music.
Funny video with a good point. I think it's more of a opinion that people who use a keyboard like the Genos, uses them in a very cheesy career. And yes, you are more than likely to see a Genos being played in a old age home - very, very few of these arrangers have modern music styles programmed into them. I own a Tyros 5 and yes, much of the styles are cheesy. However, some of them are quite amazing as well. I use it as a song design idea station and not to play out for others to hear. I don't do covers.
Hello, je suis en France et je regarde et j’ ecoute souvent tes vidéos, moi je joue de la musique dans la rue avec le psr sx 900 ou le 600 de Yamaha. Je joue tous les standards français, italiens, brésiliens et anglais saxons, mon répertoire s’étale des années 30 jusqu’aux années 80’ et les gens vieux ou jeunes aiment bien ça, alors n’écoute pas trop les gens qui te disent que tu fais de la musique ringarde ou dépassée.😊😊
It's what you play and how you play it. A good player can set these things with minimal fuss and minimal layers of tracks to sound great and live, especially with left hand bass function.
I had a brother.who was a professional musician, and one day we were out and about. I wanted to impress my older brother, and I thought that maybe if I made fun of Donny Osmond, he would think, "what a cool and hip little brother I have." Well, his retort surprised me. He said, " Yes, and he is crying all the way to the bank." I wasn't being cool at all, and was most certainly short sighted and snobbish. Personally, I would love to own a Geno 2. It has some killer sounds, and someone who is not so "tragically hip" and could appreciate its potential could really make some great music. I love cheese as well, especially sharp cheddar. I love cheesy music too, so keep on playing those cheesy songs on your not so cheesy Genos and I'll keep watching! your videos.
You raise an interesting point Woody, I have been playing arrangers since before they were called arrangers, PS20 anyone? And whilst I do have fun playing the obvious styles I would never play these pieces to an audience because I feel they would compare my efforts with the original and be critical. That said I agree with your point about playing about with synths, I’ve owned some of those too (I don’t have one at the moment I part exchanged my last one for my current arranger!) I am going to stick with my arranger for the time being and enjoy my private moments of cheese but I generally get more satisfaction out of using more generic backing tracks for my inspiration.
i don't think your audience would be critical if you are innacurate, you are giving them too much cred, as long as they vaguely recognise what you're playing and the beat is good, they will love it!
Hi Woody. I totally get your point about who is the intended audience. Most people like pop and that leans into cheese. Nothing too serious. But musicians feel inspired if they actually like what they are playing as well. They like to feel that they are being creative. I have to admit the Genos 2 is very impressive. Normally a keyboard has a certain tone and when it plays more than one instrument sound simultaneously, it all sounds the same with a cloudy mix. Studios avoid this by multitracking various keyboard brands to create variety and audio clarity in the mix. The impressive thing with the Genos 2 is that multiple instruments sound like a recording. Totally transparent. No muddy mix. Unfortunately, I can't work out whether a musician can use these tools and make something creative vs the cheesy presets created for seniors reliving the good old days. I would like to hope that you can make your own styles that break away from the cheezy presets and compose original music and arrangements. Maybe one of you guys can deliver some evidence and answer my question. I'm very impressed with the realism of natural instruments on the Genos. It is unmatched. Maybe it is those traditional instruments that is creating the cheese and all the old classics. I have yet to hear some really nice fat analogue synth sounds played creatively on the Genos 2. I did hear the Jump preset and it was a really lame Oberhiem impression, so that was concerning. Nothing like the Nord Stage 3 simulation which is very authentic. That sort of brings us back to the intended audience. Does the keyboard sound genuine to a senior expecting 1960's pop vs does the keyboard sound genuine to a younger person expecting rock. I suspect yes to the former and no to the latter, but I need to hear someone testing it out. Do you have the musical skills to volunteer and be that person. I'm a 66 year old ex musician who is firmly in the prog rock camp, wanting to hear a mini Moog singing over a Hammond C3 organ with fat Moog Taurus bass drones. Can the Genos 2 simulate that scenario.
I think perhaps today's popular music, with it's very narrow number of styles, has something to do with the perception that non mainstream music styles are cheesey, boring, or not noteworthy. It goes back to the appreciation of music across countries and generations. I appreciate how you try to level set with the viewers that there are audiences around the world for whom these instruments do not bear the cheesy moniker.
Problem is that the music the Young generation listens to have very little melodical parts that is easy or even interesting to reproduce in an instrumental cover which means the whole idea of the arranger and organs of past decades is not ideal for this kind of music. The arranger caters much more to the more melodic styles of music where you have a catchy tune that is easy to play with different instrument sounds. Its almost impossible to do an instrumental version of rap and other modern edm styles where you have a lot of repetitive notes that more concentrate on rhythm and sound changes than a tune or motif thru the song. Creating this kind of music often uses features that is not common in arrangers.
The Cheese response comes to my lips easily because I’m a 50-something Canadian male who grew up around a lot of “arranger keyboard” like organ music (“Muzak”). Styles are incredibly FUN and if people choose to self-censor and self-limit, well, fine. The older I get the less time I have for people who want to control and police other people. People mocking organ music, arranger keyboards, mocking one man band entertainment, these people have lost the plot. If you can take an arranger keyboard into a seniors home or a piano bar, and entertain people, who CARES what anyone ELSE thinks who isn’t the one doing the entertaining. Gatekeeping behaviours are toxic. We should stop. I am myself guilty of policing other people’s tastes. Seriously, now. Policing other people and making sure they live up to other people’s tastes, that’s tacky. You are bang on about home organ scene. Arranger keyboard fans are often retired people having a blast. LET THEM HAVE THEIR FUN. The "playing tunes to amuse your family after dinner on the family organ" thing happened a LOT in Canada too. These days the classifieds are full of old organs with their bossa nova rhythms and their selection of electronic 1980s organ sounds. I plead guilty with an explanation; I find arranger keyboards cheesy. And that’s fine. My opinion doesn’t matter. That said, I kinda want a GENOS2, they're just a lot of money that I can't spend. I am guilty, I love cheese. I suggest that people who are crapping on things OTHER people love may want to pause that behaviour and think a moment on that.
Makes perfect sense to me. I have a number of hardware synths and even more soft synths. I mainly compose EDM type music and to be honest, mostly on my Mac using Ableton Live. However, I originally learned to play on a home organ some 50 years ago and I have always owned arranger keyboards, initially from Roland and Korg but since 2003, I've only had Yamahas. Currently I have both the PSR-S750 and the Genos. I use these when I just want to play for myself with a full backing band. As you state more than once, it is a lot of fun and can also be very creative. In fact, I often end up with chord combinations or bass licks which I might not usually think of but can easily modify for EDM.
I think that's a good term for this gear: It's an entertainer keyboard. And I really hate entertainers - those one-man-shows on parties where the man with his organ tries to replace a complete band. And I don't like keyboards trying to emulate guitars, saxes, trumpets. This definitively sounds cheesy.
My workstation and stage keyboards work great for my own enjoyment and in a band context. Arrangers work great if you don't have a band. I have a Korg i3, and it works great with singer-guitarists in a duo setting. Pa5X vs Genos2. So far the Pa5X is in the lead, and as I'm primarily and organist, the 61-key format works best for me. FWIW, I dig cheese. One of my favorites is a theatre organ model I have in my Hauptwerk rig. If I had the money and the space, I'd have an Allen TO-5G theatre organ for my own enjoyment! Cheers!
A lot of musicians look down on arrangers for no other reason than it’s ‘cool’ to do it. For me you don’t have to use every aspect of an arranger. Some of the patches are really good even on my old Yamaha model. They should pull their head out of their arse and quit being music snobs.
Excellent video! I'd say the cheese is that keyboard right stock, with it's demos and out of the box. It's abilities can make it cheese or absolutely stellar. A very fine instrument indeed - and made to be adjusted by the musician using it. Sometimes overkill makes for cheesy, as in so many options - but again that's musician's choice.
Let's just call it what it is .. many people that play arrangers is like woody said .. people past the 50 year mark and not all of them are professional musicians so there is a great ammount of video's of people playing the best they can but certainly don't have a concervatory degree. They are just having fun playing the music they like. wich is what it's all about .. having fun. I would also like to point out that the quality of the sounds is today full on par with top Synths and sample workstations, it's all about how good the user is to play a saxophone like a saxophone player or any other instrument etc. which isn't the easiest thing if you have no idea of how things work on different instruments and many just play the sounds how they learned to play the keyboard with a "cheazy" organ or Piano sound back in the 70's and 80's. The thing is most of the sounds in both the smaller models and the top boards like the Genos, Pa5 etc. is as good as it gets with todays tech. It's easy to find and combine sounds that can easyly stand toe to toe with "Pro" instruments like Nord, Yamaha, Roland, Korg provide in their synth's which is for the most parts also based mostly on sampling with more editable things plus for some boards in different ammount, some kind virtual analog synth section. I like how for the Genos or Pa5x .. I can get a 76 key keyboard that is lightweight and reasonable sturdy that can be used at home with all the accomp. shebang for my own pleasure and they still have the possibility to be used either solo or in a band on the stage wether its for Organ, Piano or other instrument imitations, the sounds is fully on par with a Montage or Nautilus as long as you can accept that it can't edit a Piano sound to sound like a futuristic SciFi pad. Live I really just need a couple good Pianos and EP's, some strings, Brass and Organ sounds. It's really only myself or fellow keyboardists that can hear if I am using the Genos alone or 3-4 advanced synths and top clone-wheel organ. 99% of the people we play for can't hear the difference as long as what you deliver is a good performance and they had a fun evening.
While I have an arranger, I don’t play with accompaniment feature. I have it for other reasons. That being said, not all things are for everyone and not every critique is worthy of addressing. Sometimes, discretion is the better part of valor. If a Genos isn’t for you, sometimes it’s better to not get worked up about it. It servers a purpose for some and does it well. I play for person enjoyment and composition. Thus, the styles don’t serve my purposes. But the next guy who gigs, a Genos may be the ticket.
I know a lot of people who earn a living with this style of keyboard, add a live singer and some flashing lights and you can fill the dance floor all night. Totally agree with all you said. Infact you could say a analogue filter sweep sounds 'cheezy' if you used in the 'girl from ipanema'
A few years ago I bought a PSR-6300 from my local Guitar Center. I wanted one when I was a teenager, but they were somewhere in the neighborhood of $2,500! I got it for $200! Now we’re talking cheese, but I adore it!
I have a psr sx600. It's great for developing musical ideas, mine has a digital audio interface, and I steal the sounds to work with my DAW. These workstations have incredible mostly untapped creative power; hecka fun to play with!
![ILLSLICK - KILLSHOT REMIX [FULL VERSION]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/RIK8RrqIAzE/mqdefault.jpg)
Totally agree, I'm a 65 year old total amateur who got to grade 3 piano when I was 10. I dug out my 25 year old yamaha keyboard during lock down and enjoyed playing it so much I bought the psr sx 900 in 2020. Played pretty much every day since then just in my own home, self taught but best move I've made. Great videos Woody.
The subtle humor in this video... Brilliant! :D Even the bit with deliberately editing-in the fragments from the wrong camera (the one that Woody were not looking into at the moment) and other basic editing and recording "mistakes", subtly exaggerated for comedic effect that would suggest having a big distance to the opinions of "cheesyness". :D
In the 80's I grew up in music retail (keyboards, guitars, organs etc.) and right now I've been working for over a decade in similar music retail, just an order of magnitudes larger (175M/y). So, I grew up with models like the Roland E-series (E20, E70, E86, Pro-E etc.), the large organs from Technics, Eminent, Yamaha, General Music and many others. So I've been there since the beginning of auto-accompaniment. Being a writer for retail nowadays, I occasionally add/describe modern keyboards/arrangers to our webshop. Including this Genos, but also the Korg PA-series, the recent Ketron-models, and similar. It shocked me how little has changed between now and then (80's, 90's). Keep in mind that back then the ROM-sizes for samples were probably around 4 MB. Maybe a little less, maybe a little more, but in those orders of magnitudes. Nowadays? Usually close to a gigabyte or more. Everyone who endured the Akai CD days knows that given a certain size, things should sound decently. I mean, a full strings patch could cost 64 MB, but then it should sound decent. Yet, when I listen to all these modern keyboards, the cheese-factor is the same as in all those old vintage keyboards and organs. So, it can't be the sound. It's several other things.
First: the word "style". As soon you want to present people with a list of styles, manufacturers tend to stick to old cliches. How many 'styles' are there in normal pop songs? Probably none, other than 4/4 bars. I mean, take Careless Whisper from G.M., it sounds nothing like an '8 Beat' in any keyboard. Take Dancing Queen from ABBA, it sounds nothing like a 'disco' from any keyboard. It's because these were just made as the producer saw fit. The producer didn't really bother himself about which style it is. So, as soon as you want to summarize the broad landscape of music with the word 'style', you're in deep sh*t already.
Secondly: the way chords are played. In the diatonic system there are three majors and three minors, but the triads remain identical. So the system wouldn't know whether you want a dorian minor or a normal minor, or a lydian major or a mixolydian major. It can't know based on simple chord play. That's when things get cheesy as well, the ideas one has just can't be fleshed out well. It's for this reason that intros, fills and endings are usually more interesting than the simple chords. Yes, that's because in those intros and endings the makers of the arrangements allowed themself to make more interesting arrangements.
Related: basses. Now, some might play with loose pedals, that's good. But many aren't. So, if you play the notes C D F A, will that be a Dm7 with a D in the bass, or a Dm with a C in the bass? More limitations, more cheese, more Swiss cheese holes in musicality!
Also: sound. There's this notion that instruments somehow must always be realistic. Now, look at your average Kontakt library. It's not easy to work with, there's a lot of manual work to be done. The right articulations, playing off-grid to let the end of a legato be alligned on the grid etc. etc. That won't work well with keyboards. I'd say that all acoustic instruments in a keyboard, including the high end models that get released these days, are terrible. And that makes it sound cheesy. It would be so much better if there would be more focus on synthetic sounds, at least there's no real-life counterpart for them, so no-one can claim that the sounds don't sound realistic.
In a way I always find it adorable when some keyboard manufacturer claims they've invented something new. Like legato samples. Just decades after they were *really* invented though. And always used in a cheesy way.
Added together, I think the keyboards/arrangers from 20 yrs into the future will still be cheesy, as the problems sketched above can't easily be solved, unless someone invents an alternative way to somehow inject musical intentions and proper scales into the mix. But that won't be easy. Yea, you know what will happen? I've seen it with the PA-4x already: people rather playback MIDI-files, or whatever format, while only playing the melody-line themself. Because then you do get proper arrangements; custom-built. One might wonder whether it'd make more sense to just AI-remove the melody from original audio, and just play over it with any instrument, rather than buying these semi-computers we call 'cheesy keyboards'.
Good points, all. I do wish MIDI A.I. would hurry up and develop a genuine creative, melodic sensibility. I've played around with a fair few of the current programs claiming to be 'A.I.' but they are all incapable of creating something pleasing to the ear that sounds credible. Just my opinion.
This was a very good and interesting post. I often listen to videos of Yamaha keyboards on YT. I always like the Tyros 3 (three) because of the sounds, which all still sound like a real synthesizer. And I've always loved the synthesizers. Own a KORG Karma and a Yamaha CS6. Both impress with their sounds. However, the operation is not exactly user-friendly. Merci bien. ;))
best explanation I ever read.
I am an older adult who started my musical journey a bare 3 years ago. and because of youtubers like you, I have two keyboards. one a yamaha p-515 for my music lessons and for learning the muscle memory of how to play a piano/keyboard.. and a yamaha psrsx700. I love the arranger keyboard for the sheer joy of being able to have an expansive library of voices, and the styles are just fun.. they enable me to sound like a musician and have a ton of fun doing it. everyone's musical journey is different.. keep on doing what you do
i think you have a wonderful combo there, great choices!
Brilliant video Woody ! I agree with every word. Yes, I'm nearly 70, a self taught home hobbyist, and I play my Genos (1) at home, mostly for my own comfort & gratification, although I do occasionally post my wobbly efforts on my TH-cam channel to give me a goal to aim at. I'm a sight reader and a lot of my music was left to me by my father so you can imagine the era I play mostly. Many happy memories of family sing-songs when dad played his reed organ ( foot pumped! ), piano accordion or trombone. The mid 80's is about as modern as I get. OK I also play in a band, but it's a brass band & I play the tuba. I have become very stuck in a rut and I have been toying with purchasing a synth to add to the Genos so I can experiment with new sounds and ways of playing before I finally descend into senility. Updating to a Genos 2 would leave me stuck in this rut, albeit with some newer sounds but, as I am unwilling to fork out a quoted £3100 (GBP) to trade in my Genos for the "2", I am investigating the cheaper option of adding either a Modx 6+, a Roland Fantom 06, or an Akai MPC Key 61 to my Genos. I don't want to start a flame war but, is there anyone out there who can offer advice on this or is in a similar position to me ? Thank you for all of your videos Woody, I find them fascinating and inspiring.
I started with arranger keyboards back in late 80s, attending Yamaha's music school, specifically for arrangers back then. I've changed many arrangers since then and bough my last one (PSR-2100) in 2003. But after that I was fatigued with the whole concept of auto-accompaniment and styles which make the whole thing sound like someone else is playing. I also wanted to get some freedom in the left hand, as the arranger only really uses blocked chords. So I now a have a MODX+ (and a Montage) and this is definitely very different. The closest thing to styles on these are the arpeggios, which are very powerful in those two, but still not the same thing as styles. But there is a lot of freedom and choice in finding or creating your own sounds, adding effects, splitting the keyboard to up to 8 parts and so on. It's a different world. I suggest you give this a try and maybe combine it with your Genos1 for an all-round setup. The fantom 06 would also be an amazing choice, and will give you some different overall sounds than the Yamaha (Probably the AKAI too, though I haven't seen that one).
@@sonic2000gr Thanks sonic200gr, your input is much appreciated. I've had arrangers for years, building up to the Genos but I've never had a synth so I'm looking forward to learning something new. At my age the word "dementia" becomes terrifying and keeping the brain active with new ideas is supposed to help stave off the big "D". Enjoy your music making and happy new year.
I've been using arrangers for 25 years...I always pair one with a workstation, digital piano or synthesizer...the sound and perception really changes with those instruments when used together.. arrangers are fun and quick to work up a new tune...also, you can easily remove parts of the styles to not sound so repetitive...always enjoy your videos...kudos.
Me too. I use a cheap Yamaha 473 arranger keyboard together with an Arturia keyboard (and a sh.tload of fantastic vst’s - try Arminator - , a MOX6 and an Arturia Keystep sequencer. Plus Reaper. Endless possibilities, and the arranger helps to get going fast. Once you have the tune/song going you can fiddle around with the rest to make it more than just “cheezy”
yeah then you can get creative with what's on top and use the arranger as backing sequences
I always keep one arranger keyboard. Yes, most of the styles sound cheesy, but if you silence the excessive arrangements in those styles and keep the bass and drums, then an arranger becomes useful. Our brains hate monotonous music … reduce it.
I also added bass pedals … so I could play with my foot more complex and less automatic bass parts.
The arranger is good for layering sounds on the left or right side … with minimal auto arranged parts played
Completely agree w your first point. Sometimes LESS IS MORE in the accompaniment!
My cheese factor is actually a bit different than the points you mentioned. For me it's in the styles themselves. They trigger an uncanny valley effect in me as they almost sound like the original but not 100%. But the worst thing in my opinion is the that the styles sound like perfectly produced studio versions of the songs and not like an emotional live performance. When I go to a concert then I want the latter,
I never get tired of your performances, none of them sound cheezy to me. You are a fantastic keyboardist, don't ever lose your style and your delivery. BTW I love the shirt you are wearing.
oh shucks, i'm blushing! thanks
I'm a musician and play many instruments, but I do love playing on an arranger. Nothing beats the sound of a live band, but sometimes you just wanna jam out on your own and the arranger makes is perfect for that. It's fun and I embrace the cheese.
Of course, they are cheesy. There is no doubt about it. But they are so much fun to play. Not necessarily fun to listen to, but who cares about the neighbors when you have a headphone out :) And the best is - you have a wide variety of cheese to choose from! 40 years of cheesiness at your service to be found at ad and auction sites for almost nothing. I settled with a Roland RA50. It is out of this world and beyond sanity :)
I mean.... people sometimes need to play wedding sometimes and... cheesy is just what the doctor ordered for a wedding 😎
If I'd play my RA50 at a wedding, instant divorce, and mass hysteria would be the side effects :)@@johnsch8634
Great video, Woody. The clue lies in the term 'arranger'. Those with a background in orchestration and arranging will tend to get the best out of the Genos, as they have the knowledge of different instruments and how they are played and combined. Couple of examples: use 'wide' voicings in strings, not triads, and if you're playing a brass or wind sample, remember that in real life the player has to breathe between lines! At its best, the Genos is an orchestra in a box, capable of coming up with music even fellow musicians will appreciate. But like every other instrument, it takes skill, knowledge, practice and above all TASTE to make it worth listening to!
Good insight!
Yes...this exactly! Spot on!
agree with so much here - its just a shame that for those with the said background - such arrangers dont offer more support in the use cases with a DAW
I got my first “Arranger” back in the 1980s and have added another one every few years as features and sounds improved. I think one of the best feature improvements in recent years is the ability to not just have style variations but to be able to customize them by muting individual style tracks. This gives even greater musical variation.
Your commentary is bang on! I play once a week in a retirement residence and both the residents and I enjoy "the cheese." 😊 Non musicians want to hear a song they know or has a good beat, and the Genos does it so well! Ad you say, I happily embrace the cheese and everyone I play for does too! Thanks so much for posting this video! Love your channel!
there you go, brother from another mother!
Oh dear, hahaha. Stay you Woody. Been loving your videos for years.
I stand by my original comment on your very first video on this (as a ex Yamaha homeworld employee, who worked with Richard Bower Uk Brand ambassador for TYROS) “no-one does cheese like Yamaha” they have their place, they have their audience, you cannot fault the sample quality, it was never a criticism of you, your playing(which is great by the way)
at 7:15, you just destroyed my entire perception of reality! 🤣
one of the best content about the meaning of music.. WOW! 😍
lol, glad you had a wow moment!
Great points, well made Woody. To my ears arrangers sound cheesy AF but the non-musician public seem more than happy listening to them. For me personally - I feel arrangers “do too much for you” and as a result are no good for practise if your objective is to improve your solo performance.
I can totally see this. I don’t yet have an arranger keyboard but am attracted to the usefulness of what they can provide. But on the other hand as a former piano student many years ago i aspire to get to playing solo piano again. So do i get a Genos2 and another keyboard players keyboard?
Hi Woody! An entertaining video to be sure! You are exactly right when you say that the reason arrangers can sound cheesy is because people tend to replace what would usually be sung by a singer with a a sound of an instrument. I never thought about that before but it is really true! Sing to the accompanying music instead of playing and all of a sudden, the performance becomes believable.
You are also right when you say that the large majority of audience, perhaps all, don’t care if it sounds synthetic. I always remember this instance where I was at an engineering convention - I am a bit of a bore and tend to like the “dry stuff” - while a colleague of mine who was there with me preferred to hang out in the lounge of the hotel where the convention was held, enjoying his espresso. When the lecture ended, I joined him and there was this fellow playing a Yamaha Tyros (3rd generation by the looks of it) and accompanying a pretty female singer. Some sort of a jazz fusion thing. When I came to my colleague’s table, he immediately stood up and said “Don’t sit, we are leaving!” Not because of the music, obviously, but because the small espresso was 8 Euro! The lounge was chock full of customers and they were happy to spend their money. Just bring your arranger keyboard and find a decent singing and looking singer and you are on your way!
But my fondest memory is from my college days when I was at a party with a friend and instead playing music, some guy brought a Yamaha PSR-550 arranger. This was in 2003 I believe but I still remember the model number. It used diskettes for data storage but man, what a great party! The guy knew all the songs and could played them instantly and everyone was having a great time just singing and socialising.
Woody, I also want to tell you I really like your sense of humour. You went out of your way to make the Genos 2 sound as cheesy as possible! It was really hilarious!
Cheers!
Yesterday night I played in a big pub with my rock band. With two midi controllers and a vast collection of VSTs. I had a lot of fun. Being 59 yo, I know that this will not last very long. I soon will be forced to stay home alone. Then I will buy an arranger. To have fun alone.
Who cares about cheesy sounds... I love Parmigiano Reggiano
Great video. Like you said. It depends on the repertoire. I have a psr-SX900, and I mostly play popular songs in my own version by using funk, ballads, jazz, and other expansion samples styles like reggae, kompa, latin, african etc. Every other musician asks me where I get my "beats/rhythms." It's about how good player you are and how you use your creativity.
Psr-sx900 is awesome, I have one too and would not trade it for a Genos 2 or for anything. It has great guitar sounds and if you put effects on the drums they won't sound flat.
Totally agree ! The way you musicaly use all the functionality of an instrument like the sx900 is a thing that is really important , I love this instrument I bought a half year ago. Greetings from the Netherlands
@@andybond5002It’s Genos2, and I’m sure that if somebody offered you a straight swap you would take it. All you mean right now is you would like one but can’t afford it, which is fine - it’s a big chunk of cash.
@@X22GJP Not saying that Genos2 is not a great instrument, I would love to get one but I'm happy with the SX900. If someone would swap my SX900 to a Genos2 I would take it, then go ahead and buy another SX900 so I can have both :))))
@@johnvalk Wow, I actually bought it when I was on vacation in Rotterdam last year. I live in Curaçao, and it was cheaper to get it in the Netherlands vs. order one from the US.
You've got it spot on as always! I don't really think of myself as "pro" at all; but there's a musical side of me that is thrilled at plopping in front of the latest Montage, Nord Stage, or like flagship wonder machine and having a tickle thru the cutting-edge sounds, while building and shaping new ones. Where the rubber meets that road, is that no one ELSE is going to particularly enjoy (let alone pay to hear) that, and it's just as you've said exactly! Anyone I've ever entertained (hopefully, at least partially) comes to drink, dance, chat, reminisce etc. Plonks and chirps, the odd synthesized howl or wonderful solo tone, simply isn't framing this experience for them. I have heard some restaurant musicians on very inexpensive and small keyboards, paint a wonderful set of very enjoyable, danceable, and harmonious music...on what any pro musician would consider, much less than ideal equipment. I think the Genos 2 specifically is a smashing board, and one I'd love to have and play on. On either of my current synths the process of setting up (recording, playing back, etc.) songs to play as you would on this arranger, would be difficult or next to impossible. I say pass the cheese; it tastes really good, and most people prefer it with their music if they're being perfectly honest.
Ive been playing since I was 4. Im self-taught, and I also took piano lessons for a while, learning the Suzuki method, which essentially allows you to play "by ear" eventually. My very first keyboard was a Yamaha PSS-400 bought back from Hong Kong. Much later on, after a succession of "entry level" Yamaha PSR keyboards, my first arranger was a PSR-S900, and three years ago, a PSR-SX900. I have always found that the styles on an arranger keyboard are "more professional sounding", and actually emulate the sound of a live band very well. Thank you for another video Woody
I have a reggae back round playing with Jamaican artists. I used to despise the cheesy horn patches knowing that I wanted a full on horn section to get that sound. Well guess what you cant always hire a horn section out. Vocalists points to you Mr. Keys. I have learned to love and embrace the cheesy patches. I love them so much. Thank you woody for all your videos. It was because of your Korg M1 uploads that I convinced my father before he passed to loan me the money to but an M1 from craigslist. It came with the brass card. That has all the cheesy horn sounds from the 90's !! Respect. May the cheese live on.
Works great for xmas covers! Some of the sounds can be cheesey but the melodica/harmonica/accordians are incredible
when the arranger keyboard is fully programmable it is one of the best things to have. lesser models can play the data but cannot do a full arrangement of the music. I hope to get me a Genos someday even though the Tyros5 76 key is good enough for me. I already have a PSR-900sx and I'm in awe of what it can do. With all these instruments I think the one man band has finally arrived.
Great video Woody,
I am a non- musician of a certain age and love my Tyros5, although i would love to own a Genos2. Unfortunately the money flies out of my wallet these days.
I like to play the Tyros and i am happy when i hit 3 correct notes in a row. All cheesy songs offcourse
So now i will rename my Tyros and call it Gouda 5 😜😂😂😂😂
Greetings from the Netherlands
Hey Woody. I watch most of your videos. I’m 65, just completed my bachelor of music degree in jazz piano, and have had a home studio with lots of gear. This video was one of the best. You hit the nail on the head play music for the majority of your audience. I plan to upgrade my tyros 5 to a Genos 2, and play over 300 events a year, solo instrumental lots of great American songbook jazz, but a few duos doing Motown, rnb, etc. once you learn how to use an arranger, you can charge top dollar as a duo that can compete with larger bands. My live rig for duos is a Nord stage 4 and Yamaha tyros 5, soon to be a Genos 2. Image what you can perform using a Nord stage 4 and Genos. Great job Woody. Why do we play music? If you play live, no one cares what gear you have, as long as they enjoy your show and like you and hire you back again.
Geez bro, post some songs on TH-cam for us. We all can’t make it to your next gig.
Hello Woody!
Thank you very much for this video! The opinion, you expressed here is absolut correct, I agree on every point, you mentioned.
Let`s enjoy making music, for others and ourselves and learn to have more respect for every kind and style of music.
If it makes people happy, we shouldn`t try to debate or destroy it. Just use and enjoy the instruments we have and try to get some fun out of it.
I play the piano, keyboards and guitar, and I used to earn a little additional money as a keyboard entertainer in my younger years and still sometimes today (not so much as in the past). Thank you again for your very respectful video!
Greetings from Blackforest in Germany....and a Happy New Year 2024 !😃👻
Woody, you knocked it out of the park on this topic! 💯 agree on the perspectives of novice music listeners versus musicians. I happen to be an arranger keyboardist of mediocre talent, and see both sides of the coin. The sophistication of the Genos series would allow someone like me to sound pretty good, but someone like you to sound phenomenal--because you have a vast mastery of the basics, and can perform many styles. Thus, in dropping $6K with my current skillset, I would be fantasizing to think I'd be an overnight phenom.
Funny story: My first keyboard was a bit of a toy, with single note capability, a cassette compartment, and a handful of styles. The most I could do was play along with "real" songs. Then one day, I met a church organist, who asked to teeter with it. His fast-fingering and chord progressions literally knocked my socks off! He made my -$200 toy sound like a $2000+ instrument! Woody, it is as you've stated before: if you want to become a better musician, you must be prepared to put in the work, practice, and study. Precious and few are those who are just naturally gifted to skirt formal education.
Buying the Genos 2 would not make me a
better or more talented musician--although I'm sure I could play more songs. My PSR-S975 is a crowd pleaser because of my performance skills, and willingness to experiment with different sounds, octaves, tempos, and arrangements.
The Genos series is "cheese" that pleases most if you are advanced enough to do it justice. If not, be happy with the keyboard that parallels your skill level.
thanks for the great comment! i agree of course but it struck me that some people like to have the very best even if they don't use it to its full potential. and that's fine. i guess it's like how you might want the best golf clubs even if you're a crap golfer. or a fast car to drive slow. there is pleasure in owning good equipment I guess.
@@WoodyPianoShack Great analogies! Woody, you are a very deep thinker! I guess I'm a bit of a hypocrite, in that I own pricy archery bows that don't align with my present target shooting ability. But they give me happiness and pride in mere ownership. 😁
I remember back when I had my Yamaha PSS-680, which for its time was a very sophisticated home arranger keyboard with features that even Genos2 currently lacks. I generally preferred the dance and more modern sounding stuff, but to this day I always remember thinking to myself, everything sounds like demo tracks. The pre-canned content will naturally give a rather generic sound even across different performers, but at least with Genos2 and modern arrangers, you do have the option to choose which bits of the style you want, their relative volumes, and layer up plenty of sounds so if you are more gifted in the composition arena, you’ll be able to produce far more original sounding stuff compared to somebody like myself. The sounds themselves are also much more impressive, and so it can always be used as a digital piano, organ, or basic synth across the full keyboard. Think of the backing as inspirational extras, rather than the focus.
When all is said and done though, it does come down to having fun with things like this. I loved my PSS-680 and have been looking at synths like Montage M to scratch a music itch and noodle around on. However, I’m not great at sound design and am not really bothered about recording or layering up multiple synths. So really, what’s going to bring more smiles? An arranger keyboard could be just the ticket, and while a Genos2 would be lovely, a used Genos or even a lower end SX could be what I need to look for. The built in audio interface on the Genos2 is worth having though.
The reason why most workstation players play the melody line with their right hand is that we don't dare to sing :-) Also i play by ear, and it's not always easy to figure out how to play a song the way a "musician" would do. But i don't play to earn money, i play for fun, sharing the fun with like minded people, and visit and do keyboard workshops, so we can learn from each other. in other words, a great hobby, and i don't care that some folks dislike the Yamaha workstations, as long as I like it.
Your instruction and comments are very much appreciated! What i would like to see is a cool performance where you add your own playing. Then explain section by section how you used Genos 2 to accomplish it
If a band could play perfectly on the grid, it would sound cheesy, right? These machines are built to reproduce music perfectly and make it easy to access the sound. You can't simulate interaction between musicians who are constantly reacting to new requirements, moods and audiences.
Brilliant video, Woody! Engaging and fun... and that Tijuana Brass ensemble was fantastic!
The cheese slicer is commonly used in The Netherlands Woody 😉 You should visit The Netherlands it is a lovely country
As a fellow Dutchie, I will never stop eating CHEEZE 😄
Thank you for this. I was worried the Genos 2 is not cheesy enough for my taste, but after watching this video I'm completely sold.
Great video! Not only because it was very funny to watch, but because I like Yamaha arrangers, and also you are eating my favourite cheese🤣
Depends on how you use and play them. If you play cheesy music with cheesy sounds and styles then it'll sound cheesy, but this is down to taste. Someones cheese is another persons favourite style (musical snobbery effectively). As an ex-pro-entertainer, I've had to play what I consider cheese to entertain and get paid.....it's called playing to your audience. But, don't underestimate the power of these tools. The Genos 1/2 and Korg Pa5X are extremely helpful instruments in a live stage setting. I primarily use my Genos 1 to play backing tracks (midifiles - purchased from MidiSpot AP who make extremely well produced tracks), with phantom powered mic plugged in and straight into my PA. Real easy plugin and play.
I took about a year's worth of piano when I was 8 or 9. I never studied, I never practiced. I can't read bass clef and I don't know how to 'fake' a bass line. I'm on my third arranger keyboard (all Korg) and I really would like to get rid of my 13 year old PA800, and get a new PA5X and/or a Genos 2. Why? Because I can play them and make music for my own enjoyment. That's what it's all about, at least for me, and the people who hear me play usually enjoy it, although I am by no means a 'good musician.' This comes back to what you were saying, most people who are non-musicians don't hear the mistakes, don't understand what all goes into an Arranger Keyboard, and what doesn't go in, or come out of it.
But, there are some really talented people who can take an Arranger Keyboard and make it sing, Alois Muller comes to mind. What Allie does with an arranger, Korg, Genos, whatever, totally blow my mind. What he accomplishes with a single keyboard, even something like a Korg PA700, really gives you a concept about what these can really do.
I think the point that was perhaps lost is that the Genos 2 (and arranger keyboards in general, for that matter) doesn't have to sound cheesy; it's merely the default position, but the Genos 2 is a hugely powerful keyboard and capable of just about anything. As ever, it's all in the hands (literally) of the artist using it.
You nailed this Woody! I started playing music on a family organ in the 80's. So the natural progression was to arranger keyboards. For more seasoned musicians, arrangers can provide a wealth of inspiration, especially when writing.
But the cheese can certainly be served in bulk when using styles set to "busy level 11" and the OTS link set to "every instruments possible".
The power of these instruments lies not in how they come out of the box. But rather, it's how they allow players to use the individual parts and pieces to craft their own music!
Great stuff Woody, love this YT video, cheers and happy new year from New Zealand.
Trinity keyboard exams.. grades 1 -8 are solely for arranger keyboards.
They are regarded no differently to the classical piano exams in terms of UCAS university points.
It's totally not the bad idea to learn the existence of the things like chords at the beginning of learning and the structure of simple chord progressions along with basic hand independence + right hand dexterity while left one is playing the chords.
I started as a child on keyboard (1 year keyboard + 1 year piano) and it can change the way the information is stored in the brain. Now when I play something I memorize not only the key sequence, I also recognize and memorize the chords and harmonic changes during the song. That makes it easier and quicker to learn the whole song and recover after crashing while playing 😅
@@dwsel I totally agree…The keyboard exams seem to give the candidates are far greater understanding of the harmonic patterns and structures than the classical piano exam candidates.
Brave topic to dive into!! I have been critical of arranger keyboards in the past but I see your point, many many people love them. I guess I wish there was an arranger out there that could appeal to "musicians" and non musicians at the same time. How I would suggest that is, I know that there are midi performances, that's fine but some sounds just really stick out - brass and strings are the main culprit. If there was an arranger that had a little more nuance in those sounds I could see it appealing to more than one market - but that would be increased memory and costs and might not sell as well. Either way, good video Woody.
"Let's talk about cheese" ... proceeds to use nice cheese knife ... eats mystery cheese ... doesnt' talk about cheese! LOL nice one Woody!
Seriously though - what kind is it? Havarti?
Also, @ 5:30 - No idea what tune that was but it sounds fantastic and I'm sure it'd be a smash hit in grandpa's day. No reason we can't still listen and appreciate - in fact I think people who get stuck in a particular genre / style / era of music are REALLY missing out. Some of my favorite music would make 90% of people laugh, and you know what? Zero fu@ks given! 🤣 If you like it, then play it loud and enjoy it for real.
Also - completely unrelated - I LOVE the Scandinavian minimalist vibe in the room you're in - it looks like an amazing place to relax and watch the snowpack rise to those gorgeous massive windows. Congrats on the new house!
I have the PSR-SX900 and I mainly use it for the the original sounds..Love the pianos, and acoustic guitars.. I just use the entire board.. I love being able to use three different instruments at one time. (countrolling octaves on each individual sound)I seldom really use the accompantiment, only when feeling cheesy, as they say...lol.. There are a few good set ups on the PSR, bu t I will be heading over to Sweetwater, to check out this new beast...
To you. Thank you for starting this video series. When I bought my harpsichord about 40 years ago, I was also offered e-boards. They sounded terrible, really cheesy. Since then, the sound has improved enormously. Offering now a touchscreen makes the Genos easy to use. Your presentation could even lead to the creation of a useful user manual. Keep up the good work!!! The sound of most high-end pianos, including Steinway, hurts my ears. I'm glad the Genos offers the ability to soften the sound. Thanks again for your efforts. R.
In 50 years all the arranger styles will be Gangster Hip Hop, Rotterdam Techno, Death Metal, K-Pop, Harry Styles, Cardi B, Reggaeton Styles ect when todays teenagers perform in their Senior😅 homes... 😅
I’m yet to hear a really heavy style on an arranger. Punk Rock and Heavy Metal genres are over 50 years old yet they are not in any arranger so far.
Death metal is also not a new style. Would be nice to have a style with overdriven guitars produced by professionals.
This video is spot on I love my synths but I also love arranger keyboards they both have their own use case I used to read on some forums where people ignorantly claimed people who played these were not even real musicians but a lot of people got their start on an arranger or an organ with auto accompaniment. Cheers thanks for the video Woody.
Depends what people mean by musicians. They're more likely to be people who just play other peoples music, so they have the skills to play but possibly not have the skills to compose.
@@6581punk yes could be but a lot of people use these to make money as well.
I’ve heard bad musicians make some of the coolest instruments sound cheesy, and vice versa.
very true
“Stir up emotions”? Why yes, I was laughing my ass off. You’re right about the audience, but arrangers don’t HAVE to be cheesy. There is a serious instrument there that can be played without any cheesy accompaniments. As for the hand held cheese slicer, I have one here in England. Yes it’s a nice bit of kit. I also have one that grates.
well, big thanks 4 your videos, particularly this cheesy special edition! 😁 I hope we can enjoy your company again next year - so HNY! 🙃
As a "purist", "serious" keyboard player (latest purchase being the Expressive E Osmose), I've always steered well clear of these arranger keyboards... BUT, I have to say, some years ago, I was blown away by the realistic nature of some of the sounds on the old Tyros series (the guitars were especially good). And I did own a Roland Disover 5 for a brief period a few years ago (demo video on my channel), and had so much fun with it. The song samples on there, and the clever use of the onboard samples (not a patch on the Genos) was impressive.
So, I'm a little bit torn. Back in the 80s, I was in a number of cover bands playing a lot of the songs you've covered here. And a keyboard like this would have been a boon in the ski resorts and Mediterranean clubs I was working (in similar shirts to yours) - though I'm not sure that the drummer and bassist would have agreed!
And you're definitely right about the consumer's perception of the sounds that you make - it take a certain type of nerdy keyboard purist to appreciate the weird and wonderful MPE sounds on the Osmose 🙂
Have to love me a little bit of cheese from time to time!
Cheese slicers are also available in Scotland. Its a major export second only to whisky.
The reason arrangers sound cheezy is the non keyboard patches (sax, guitar, horns, bass) are coming from a synth and have that type of sound. The best idea to performing at a party is to have a karaoke playlist on TH-cam. Bring your keyboard, speaker, and a couple mics. Turn on the TV, log into TH-cam, play the karaoke version of songs on the TV. Everyone can sing while you play along on your keyboard. One or two people can hold the mic, but everyone can sing. I've done this at a couple parties and it was a hit.
Eh, here in the Netherlands we have chees slicers too, being a cheese loving country. And you're right, they are a great invention. By the way: cheezy is what you do with it, not the keyboard itself. And if you don't like the sounds then use or blend them with the ones you have in your DAW.
Hi Woody, I really enjoyed your video. I have been a keyboard player for nearly Sixty Years, still performing, and have had a lot of fun and good gigs playing my Korg arranger Keyboard. I play a lot of ABBA songs which seem suited to the “one man band keyboard “. Please keep posting. Ken in Scotland.
Years ago when I played with my own MIDI sequences, someone told me I'm over sequenced, and looking back he was correct. So that's number one...As a solo musician, I now lean to minimalist arrangements to match my look better. Often just drums, bass and my live keys, and there's something very organic about that. I very rarely use non-keyboard instrument sounds...to me they're the biggest offenders of being cheesy. So no sax, trumpet, electric guitar, etc for me. I always play piano, organ and synth sounds exclusively when playing live. Also, I always remove as many keyboard parts on the styles as possible so I can handle that live. Somtimes guitars on the styles won't suit my taste, so I may turn them off or down. Finally, I usually sing the melody, or play it with a keyboard instrument sound. I also play frequently with other guitar players, which is fantastic. In that case, I turn off most all the guitars and they handle that with 100% authenticity. I love my used mint Genos 1.
i have a very similar approach, usually, actual keyboard sounds only! especially when playing with bands. but i'm nowadays having fun going "all-in" on the saxes and guitars! congrats on the G1, nice pickup!
In 2012 I spent some time in the Yucatan, MX, and a guy had an arranger keyboard in a little bar down there. He was playing the latin styles, singing and playing solos. He was tearing it up and the crowd was having a blast all night! I love me some cheese!
The first application of AI in music, lol! I think some of those old home organs had some of the auto accompanist features back in the 70s?
I really appreciate these honest videos of yours Woody, and I totally agree. If you want to please the crowd, the cheese is inevitable. That goes for both instruments and repertoire, and the Genos/Tyros/PaX etc. were clearly made to produce crowd-pleasing music. Non-musicians will be bored to tears by me performing some classical piece on the organ, but will applaud loudly when I embrace the cheese factor and do an oldies medley for them to sing along to.
But I will keep enjoying bizarre repertoire pieces and synth exploration, as well as a tasty slice of arranger cheese now and then. A good musical diet needs variation!
10 minutes to midnight here in Tasmania. Thanks for all the cheese Woody! Happy New Year.
I'm loving this video, Woody! You're presenting really good points around the spectrum of this discussion.
at 11:50 when you played "Raindrops keep falling on my head" I think I had a brain hemmorhage. Yes, you're absolutely right about audience-pleasers, and I know you're intentionally going for moldy cheese to make a point, but I'm smacking my forehead and saying "Stop! Please - stop!"
Oh, the curse of ear training. 😁 Again, excellent video for challenging our music-geekyness.
I think you nailed it. Same thing goes for guitarists and tone. Audiences don’t care if you’re playing through an original Klon pedal or a digital modeler. Arranger keyboards also good for original composition work for those unfamiliar with DAW’s. The main issue with the Genos is the $5K price tag, I’d rather put that $5K towards a Groove 3rd Wave :).
There's a lot of sound editing features that a lot of people never delve into. Attack, decay, sustain, reverb are just the surface. I think if you play the pre-arranged instruments primarily, they might sound monotonous and a bit cheesy. But that's why you need to delve into the expressive capabilities and the sound editing features.
Generally speaking, people don’t buy arrangers to delve into sound editing. It’s not a synth, it’s a collection of pre-canned styles and sounds that allow relative amateurs and professionals alike to create entire songs on the fly.
@@X22GJP Yes, that is typically how an arranger keyboard works, but if people were concerned about it sounding cheesy, which I think was the point of the video, then the fact that this thing has those parameters that can be adjusted and the sounds can be customized and edited is something that should be pointed out to those who might be on the fence about it due to the "cheesy sound." It isn't as detailed in sound editing as my MODX+, but it does have plenty of options to change sound qualities for those concerned about it sounding "cheesy,"- again pointing out the title and the point of the video.
I've always liked these. I remember playing keyboards like this that are now over 25 years old, and people loved them back then also. Nowadays they are far better. Not perfect, but it's the same with proper quality sampled music in a DAW... if you are a musician, you can always tell. But to anyone who is not a musician, they don't care.
Fun video! Glad you put a breath of life into this topic and showed how unnecessarily serious musicians can get! Let’s loosen up! Hit the BOSSA NOVA 2 button with the tempo up to 125BPM and let yourself go! 🙂
Hi there Woody,
You are so right about the general public not giving a crap about the cheese factor of these Arranger Keys. I played in a band called the "Party Boys in the 80's. The musicians in town, hated us, but we always got more bookings from people that liked the bands interaction with "Grandma, Grandpa and the kids. From dancing Conga lines in the Clubs or getting a older people up on stage and getting them to sing or what not.. Musicians thought we sucked ! -BUT we always were getting gigs at nice clubs and private parties! Cheers to Cheesy ! lol to add to the "cheese factor" we also wore Tuxes!🤣
I think what makes them sound cheesy is the lack of dynamics, like this one has fairly good samples but the instruments in the arrangements are played really flatly, and I've heard people programming more impressive MIDI arrangements using technically worse sounds (I'll say the guitars in the last jam were impressively programmed though). But I love things like the wavestate, wavestation etc. which can essentially work like these - one or a couple of accompaniment layers and a melody layer. It's really just a matter of making the accompaniment sound dynamic and interesting, and a lot of the standard arrangements on these do not, and thus sound cheesy.
Lack of dynamics through your phone’s little speaker 😊
Yes, Wavestate is what I call a 'possibility space' - quite literally anything's possible (and might or might not happen). It's a wonderful 'noodler's toybox', and very inspirational. So full of rabbit holes that one can disappear for hours just playing about with it.
@@joseluishernandezseptien that's not quite what I meant by dynamics, more expressiveness and non-rigidness to the performance, which actually can be emulated by a good programmer, but which is often lacking in these factory arrangements.
As for your specific comment though - even on phone speakers you can often get a sense of if the phone doesn't make justice to the source material, with hints of the frequencies and dynamics it doesn't reproduce correctly, or if it's the actual source material that is lacking in detail.
Hardware synths are like a time machine to the previous century. With analog synths you can sound like the 70s, FM synths take you to the 80s and romplers are a 90s thing. Modular synths take you to the sound of the 60s and samplers are a 80s and 90s thing.
Yes and if you wait long enough it will all come back in fashion. 10 years ago people threw away early synthesizers without looking back. Now they sell for thousands of dollars.
I had a Yamaha PSR 740 back in the day ( still got this lovely keyboard) When Robbie Williams released “Feel “ I had arranged this on my keyboard within a few days and put it on a floppy disc as midi data. I took this to a pub where the keyboard player used to get singers up out of the audience ( those were the days) and used to get up and sing to my own arrangement. 😉😉
sounds like a ton of fun. love that song btw, nice piano intro too.
At 5.30 Let me guess that was the famous James Last style ? Brings back memories when his records were played at my home - only on family occasions though.
There are a lot of valid arguments in the video, however we should also examine the arranger from the scope of someone who is learning to play keyboards. It does have the effect of an "easy win" since you can start playing impressive songs with little effort, even as a beginner, however this will also hamper your development. You will learn lot of chords in the process and maybe you will get an adequate right hand technique (and good sense of rhythm) but you will get stuck playing auto accompaniment mode. I am saying this because back in the late 80s, Yamaha had music schools all over Greece that were teaching exactly this: playing arrangers (using some method books called, appropriately, "autorgan"). Now, I don't know if this was also happening around Europe at the time (Yamaha definitely had plenty of arrangers back then, including some nice PSS portables) but as this is where I studied myself, there is so much more to learn than that.
So I guess it's not difficult to see why the target group for arrangers is mostly older people and pensioners :D
Dear Woody, you’re a great entertainer and an inspiration! Keep doing what you love, as that motivates us who now and again dust off an old synth or even an older Tyros to play some cheesy songs 😊 Those who don’t like your content are not your audience anyway! And they probably don’t like cheese either 😂
Cheese can be fun. Most people like cheese. We had a nice long holiday singalong last week as I played a Yamaha PSS-F30!! Now that is cheesy. But we had a great time!!
Because of the culture in Japan that regards music as a learning or artistic activity, arranger keyboards are regarded as "lazy people's instruments" or "instruments that can cheat," and are not popular at all. In fact, Yamaha Genos series, Roland E series, and Korg Pa series are not available in Japan except for a few products. In Japan, there is also a tendency to look down on instrumental music rather than vocal music, and some people even ridicule it as elevator music in the West. However, everyone has his or her own way of enjoying music. It is only when people can enjoy music in various ways that more people can come into contact with it. It is a wonderful thing to have an ear that can distinguish between good and bad music. However, when we start saying that others should also have that standard, confusion arises. Everyone should be free to choose how they enjoy music.
Funny video with a good point. I think it's more of a opinion that people who use a keyboard like the Genos, uses them in a very cheesy career. And yes, you are more than likely to see a Genos being played in a old age home - very, very few of these arrangers have modern music styles programmed into them. I own a Tyros 5 and yes, much of the styles are cheesy. However, some of them are quite amazing as well. I use it as a song design idea station and not to play out for others to hear. I don't do covers.
Hello, je suis en France et je regarde et j’ ecoute souvent tes vidéos, moi je joue de la musique dans la rue avec le psr sx 900 ou le 600 de Yamaha. Je joue tous les standards français, italiens, brésiliens et anglais saxons, mon répertoire s’étale des années 30 jusqu’aux années 80’ et les gens vieux ou jeunes aiment bien ça, alors n’écoute pas trop les gens qui te disent que tu fais de la musique ringarde ou dépassée.😊😊
It's what you play and how you play it.
A good player can set these things with minimal fuss and minimal layers of tracks to sound great and live, especially with left hand bass function.
I had a brother.who was a professional musician, and one day we were out and about. I wanted to impress my older brother, and I thought that maybe if I made fun of Donny Osmond, he would think, "what a cool and hip little brother I have." Well, his retort surprised me. He said, " Yes, and he is crying all the way to the bank." I wasn't being cool at all, and was most certainly short sighted and snobbish. Personally, I would love to own a Geno 2. It has some killer sounds, and someone who is not so "tragically hip" and could appreciate its potential could really make some great music. I love cheese as well, especially sharp cheddar. I love cheesy music too, so keep on playing those cheesy songs on your not so cheesy Genos and I'll keep watching! your videos.
You raise an interesting point Woody, I have been playing arrangers since before they were called arrangers, PS20 anyone? And whilst I do have fun playing the obvious styles I would never play these pieces to an audience because I feel they would compare my efforts with the original and be critical.
That said I agree with your point about playing about with synths, I’ve owned some of those too (I don’t have one at the moment I part exchanged my last one for my current arranger!) I am going to stick with my arranger for the time being and enjoy my private moments of cheese but I generally get more satisfaction out of using more generic backing tracks for my inspiration.
i don't think your audience would be critical if you are innacurate, you are giving them too much cred, as long as they vaguely recognise what you're playing and the beat is good, they will love it!
Hi Woody. I totally get your point about who is the intended audience. Most people like pop and that leans into cheese. Nothing too serious. But musicians feel inspired if they actually like what they are playing as well. They like to feel that they are being creative. I have to admit the Genos 2 is very impressive. Normally a keyboard has a certain tone and when it plays more than one instrument sound simultaneously, it all sounds the same with a cloudy mix. Studios avoid this by multitracking various keyboard brands to create variety and audio clarity in the mix. The impressive thing with the Genos 2 is that multiple instruments sound like a recording. Totally transparent. No muddy mix.
Unfortunately, I can't work out whether a musician can use these tools and make something creative vs the cheesy presets created for seniors reliving the good old days. I would like to hope that you can make your own styles that break away from the cheezy presets and compose original music and arrangements. Maybe one of you guys can deliver some evidence and answer my question.
I'm very impressed with the realism of natural instruments on the Genos. It is unmatched. Maybe it is those traditional instruments that is creating the cheese and all the old classics. I have yet to hear some really nice fat analogue synth sounds played creatively on the Genos 2. I did hear the Jump preset and it was a really lame Oberhiem impression, so that was concerning. Nothing like the Nord Stage 3 simulation which is very authentic.
That sort of brings us back to the intended audience. Does the keyboard sound genuine to a senior expecting 1960's pop vs does the keyboard sound genuine to a younger person expecting rock. I suspect yes to the former and no to the latter, but I need to hear someone testing it out. Do you have the musical skills to volunteer and be that person. I'm a 66 year old ex musician who is firmly in the prog rock camp, wanting to hear a mini Moog singing over a Hammond C3 organ with fat Moog Taurus bass drones. Can the Genos 2 simulate that scenario.
to answer the last question, no I don't find any ELP styles! too bad... :)
I think perhaps today's popular music, with it's very narrow number of styles, has something to do with the perception that non mainstream music styles are cheesey, boring, or not noteworthy. It goes back to the appreciation of music across countries and generations. I appreciate how you try to level set with the viewers that there are audiences around the world for whom these instruments do not bear the cheesy moniker.
Problem is that the music the Young generation listens to have very little melodical parts that is easy or even interesting to reproduce in an instrumental cover which means the whole idea of the arranger and organs of past decades is not ideal for this kind of music. The arranger caters much more to the more melodic styles of music where you have a catchy tune that is easy to play with different instrument sounds. Its almost impossible to do an instrumental version of rap and other modern edm styles where you have a lot of repetitive notes that more concentrate on rhythm and sound changes than a tune or motif thru the song. Creating this kind of music often uses features that is not common in arrangers.
Lolololo😂😂 ❤❤ i love this !! Thank you for your brilliant perspective
The Cheese response comes to my lips easily because I’m a 50-something Canadian male who grew up around a lot of “arranger keyboard” like organ music (“Muzak”). Styles are incredibly FUN and if people choose to self-censor and self-limit, well, fine. The older I get the less time I have for people who want to control and police other people. People mocking organ music, arranger keyboards, mocking one man band entertainment, these people have lost the plot. If you can take an arranger keyboard into a seniors home or a piano bar, and entertain people, who CARES what anyone ELSE thinks who isn’t the one doing the entertaining. Gatekeeping behaviours are toxic. We should stop. I am myself guilty of policing other people’s tastes. Seriously, now. Policing other people and making sure they live up to other people’s tastes, that’s tacky.
You are bang on about home organ scene.
Arranger keyboard fans are often retired people having a blast. LET THEM HAVE THEIR FUN.
The "playing tunes to amuse your family after dinner on the family organ" thing happened a LOT in Canada too. These days the classifieds are full of old organs with their bossa nova rhythms and their selection of electronic 1980s organ sounds.
I plead guilty with an explanation; I find arranger keyboards cheesy. And that’s fine. My opinion doesn’t matter. That said, I kinda want a GENOS2, they're just a lot of money that I can't spend. I am guilty, I love cheese. I suggest that people who are crapping on things OTHER people love may want to pause that behaviour and think a moment on that.
Makes perfect sense to me. I have a number of hardware synths and even more soft synths. I mainly compose EDM type music and to be honest, mostly on my Mac using Ableton Live. However, I originally learned to play on a home organ some 50 years ago and I have always owned arranger keyboards, initially from Roland and Korg but since 2003, I've only had Yamahas. Currently I have both the PSR-S750 and the Genos. I use these when I just want to play for myself with a full backing band. As you state more than once, it is a lot of fun and can also be very creative. In fact, I often end up with chord combinations or bass licks which I might not usually think of but can easily modify for EDM.
I think that's a good term for this gear: It's an entertainer keyboard. And I really hate entertainers - those one-man-shows on parties where the man with his organ tries to replace a complete band. And I don't like keyboards trying to emulate guitars, saxes, trumpets. This definitively sounds cheesy.
My workstation and stage keyboards work great for my own enjoyment and in a band context.
Arrangers work great if you don't have a band. I have a Korg i3, and it works great with singer-guitarists in a duo setting.
Pa5X vs Genos2. So far the Pa5X is in the lead, and as I'm primarily and organist, the 61-key format works best for me.
FWIW, I dig cheese. One of my favorites is a theatre organ model I have in my Hauptwerk rig. If I had the money and the space, I'd have an Allen TO-5G theatre organ for my own enjoyment!
Cheers!
Beautiful Video Presentation Woody. Have a lovey year.
A lot of musicians look down on arrangers for no other reason than it’s ‘cool’ to do it. For me you don’t have to use every aspect of an arranger. Some of the patches are really good even on my old Yamaha model. They should pull their head out of their arse and quit being music snobs.
Excellent video! I'd say the cheese is that keyboard right stock, with it's demos and out of the box. It's abilities can make it cheese or absolutely stellar. A very fine instrument indeed - and made to be adjusted by the musician using it. Sometimes overkill makes for cheesy, as in so many options - but again that's musician's choice.
Happy new Year to you Woody and your family
Let's just call it what it is .. many people that play arrangers is like woody said .. people past the 50 year mark and not all of them are professional musicians so there is a great ammount of video's of people playing the best they can but certainly don't have a concervatory degree. They are just having fun playing the music they like. wich is what it's all about .. having fun. I would also like to point out that the quality of the sounds is today full on par with top Synths and sample workstations, it's all about how good the user is to play a saxophone like a saxophone player or any other instrument etc. which isn't the easiest thing if you have no idea of how things work on different instruments and many just play the sounds how they learned to play the keyboard with a "cheazy" organ or Piano sound back in the 70's and 80's.
The thing is most of the sounds in both the smaller models and the top boards like the Genos, Pa5 etc. is as good as it gets with todays tech. It's easy to find and combine sounds that can easyly stand toe to toe with "Pro" instruments like Nord, Yamaha, Roland, Korg provide in their synth's which is for the most parts also based mostly on sampling with more editable things plus for some boards in different ammount, some kind virtual analog synth section.
I like how for the Genos or Pa5x .. I can get a 76 key keyboard that is lightweight and reasonable sturdy that can be used at home with all the accomp. shebang for my own pleasure and they still have the possibility to be used either solo or in a band on the stage wether its for Organ, Piano or other instrument imitations, the sounds is fully on par with a Montage or Nautilus as long as you can accept that it can't edit a Piano sound to sound like a futuristic SciFi pad. Live I really just need a couple good Pianos and EP's, some strings, Brass and Organ sounds. It's really only myself or fellow keyboardists that can hear if I am using the Genos alone or 3-4 advanced synths and top clone-wheel organ. 99% of the people we play for can't hear the difference as long as what you deliver is a good performance and they had a fun evening.
well said i could not agree more! cheers
While I have an arranger, I don’t play with accompaniment feature. I have it for other reasons. That being said, not all things are for everyone and not every critique is worthy of addressing. Sometimes, discretion is the better part of valor. If a Genos isn’t for you, sometimes it’s better to not get worked up about it. It servers a purpose for some and does it well.
I play for person enjoyment and composition. Thus, the styles don’t serve my purposes. But the next guy who gigs, a Genos may be the ticket.
I know a lot of people who earn a living with this style of keyboard, add a live singer and some flashing lights and you can fill the dance floor all night.
Totally agree with all you said. Infact you could say a analogue filter sweep sounds 'cheezy' if you used in the 'girl from ipanema'
A few years ago I bought a PSR-6300 from my local Guitar Center. I wanted one when I was a teenager, but they were somewhere in the neighborhood of $2,500! I got it for $200! Now we’re talking cheese, but I adore it!
I have a psr sx600. It's great for developing musical ideas, mine has a digital audio interface, and I steal the sounds to work with my DAW. These workstations have incredible mostly untapped creative power; hecka fun to play with!