10” speakers are better than 12” for guitar?!! Most of the time, maybe yes!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ค. 2024
- Most of our guitar customers buy 12” cabs - but should that be the norm? We’re comparing our Upsetter 110 with our Reformer 112 - that’s a Celestion G10 Vintage vs Vintage 30. Like most guitarists, Lewie’s own cab is a 12” one. Time for a rethink!
Lewie is playing his PRS SE Silver Sky and our own Sire Larry Carlton L7 (we'll call it the Les Paul) through an Egnater Tweaker.
0:00 Intro
02:44 Strat (clean) comparison
06:40 Strat (dirty) comparison
07:56 Funky clean comparison
09:15 Thoughts
12:48 Les Paul (Dirty)
14:36 Final thoughts
Check out some of our other 10" + 12" comparisons videos if you still need to scratch that itch:
Can you miniaturise a classic rock 12" and it still sound good? Are Creambacks the cream for Cream?:
• Can you miniaturise a ...
How can a single 10" speaker sound so good? Upsetter 110 with Celestion G10 Gold vs 12" AlNiCo's:
• How can a single 10" s...
10” speakers are better than 12” for guitar?!! Most of the time, maybe yes!:
• 10” speakers are bette...
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I'm suprised as to how much better the 10" sounds compared to the 12"
Another excellent video, thanks gents. Great playing by Lewie as well!
I think a valid point is that you could probably make the 12 sound more like the 10 by cutting certain freqs in EQ, whereas I don't think the opposite is true. So you get more options out of the 12
In high-end audio we would say that the top and bottom on the smaller cab are 'of the same origin', while on the larger one the top and bottom are not connected organically to each other. The smaller cab sounds as an acoustic guitar would, all sounds emanating and naturally following from the same source. The larger cab sounds disconnected top from bottom, and so artificially 'large', albeit in a pleasant way, but which is inorganic or non analog: nice sounds that aren't...real, vs real sounds that are less nice?
Interesting but lovely explanation, well said. Touche it feels like 😅
this is pure genius , wait until everyone buys a 1x12 cab then tell em the 1x10 cab is better , ha ha ha , i love it , i have always been a fan of 10" and even 8" speakers for guitar ....
Yes, but they sell tone rings to use a 10" in 12" baffle. I like both sized speakers, depending on cabinets. I just ordered a Usurper extra-wide 12" cab, hope to get a 2x10" possibly in the future? I can run my bassman head into both cabs for a 4ohm load, and get the best of both sized speakers!!
I like listening to his playing for this demo. the 12 inch sounds different as it should. A little fuller. Nice playing. I love 10's but the 12" is the winner for a single speaker, imo. Most interesting. I really like Barefaced Products and innovations. Thank You
I’ve had jazz players tell me that they prefer the tighter faster response of a 10, but I’m a basshead and want the headroom or boisterous bass bloom of my G12T75’s…
You guys always make me rethink stuff, thank you keep up the great work.
I used a 4x10 and jcm 800 back in the day.
I preferred it to the 4x12.
Sounded excellent in the mix with the band.
I recently put a G10 vintage and a V30 in the same cab and they sound really good together. Lots of nice mids.
Alex, can I make this a special request before the White Upsetter is delivered to its owner? 🙏
This was a great comparison! One that I've been wanting to hear in helping me choose!
What would nail it for me would be to hear a Reformer 110 with the G10 Vintage in this back-to-back switched comparison.
This would round out the comparison to also see what cab volume/size does for the 10". While also helping to eliminate (or confirm) the "sounds boxy" bias of the 10.
Icing on the cake would be to add a Custom Uprising 1012V (G10V on Top & G12V on Bottom) 😉
So cool! I didn’t expect the 10" to sound like that. Can you make a shootout between the 10" drivers? I think i would like to order one.
As a player I always like open-back 112's, they're more "loose and resonant" for lack of a better term, and "feel" better when you're the player. 110's are too "focused" for me, but if i'm listening to it AND NOT playing, I get a sense of "I could probably mic and capture that sound easier and better," as someone thinking about recording it. 212's can sound "more surround sound," but in some places they sound out of phase for some reason, and 412s are too "directional" and are very "tight"
The 12 is definitely brighter sounding. I would have expected it to be the other way around. I wonder how a 10 would sound in the 12 sized cab.
Similarly, the larger 12" Blug fatcab is brighter than the 12" Blug nanocab.
Bit fuller (more bass extension) I think too, like this one. It's because the standing waves bouncing around the box are longer and lower frequency. Great video by jim lill about exactly that whole rabbit hole. If you watch him talking about amps tho,, yikes, he blew my mind. Unless you want to feel really sad about all that money you've spent on tubes, hunting "that" sound, don't do it.... ah well that's another video for another day lol. Even worse tho "playpm's" video about amps.. fml. In short cabinets and speakers are almost 80-90% of what actually shapes the "tone" of a guitar once it leaves the pickups. From what I've learned recently anyway. It's way more about the fingers... 🤘See nuno bettingcourt for details hahah..
Can you connect them so both at the same time, I’d like to hear that. Also connect the 210 with the wide 12” please 😊
Thank you for this. Honestly, I like a lot of speakers more than a V30. Your bite is my ice pick. But coupled with a 12 coupled with a 10 is a good way to go. IMHO.
I got me a 1x12 Reformer last year. It’s been the very best thing ever. I love it. So light and portable. But whether I play good or crap. In gigs I’m always told my tone is fabulous.
I always liked stereo rigs. Perhaps 2 x 10 units would facilitate that.
Yes, I see on That Pedal Show they used two Reformer 112 cabs for stereo but the Bros Landreth use two Upsetter 110 cabs for the stereo cabs in the guitar rig.
I think the comment that the 10 mixes better is true. Both sound great. I love mixing 10's dry with 12's wet. Right now I need a better 10" speaker for a 5F1 than the blue label Jensen.
If I could have only one amp, overall 4x10 but for controlled feedback 2x12. Regardless, I want the lighter cone as it tends to be faster, with less blur and greater definition.
PS I ordered a Calestian Gold Alnico this AM. I am hopeful that at just over $225 it finishes the Champ 5F1 clone.
the 10 is more articulate, but beyond that id say the difference is going to come down to what your ears like. now a cab with 2 10's, and 2 12's has interesting possibilities. maybe 2 10's, and a 12. a ton of options to affect how that signal sounds coming from the amp.
I didn't like the 10" with the humbucker guitar (letting aside the mic was clipping). However, I definitely like 10" speakers, it's only Celestion doesn't currently make very good ones. I have a nice G10N-40, though, sort of a slightly tuned G10 Greenback, but among my collection it could only replace my only shrill G12M Greenback. I got the G10 Greenback 1x10 IR and it's kind of meh. I like better for example the Jensen catalogue of 10" speakers, richer in «tonal colours», however I can't justify getting more speakers than I already have. 😅
It's interesting you pointed out the 12" would have more harmonics than than the 10". That's something I hypothesize about, since I feel the same happens when I listen to any 15" vs. 12" speaker comparison, and in my opinion it would be related to having a larger surface, the same that happens on instruments with resonating surfaces.
I thought my Vox AC4C1 could sound very boxy, band passed sounding with lows and highs chopped off with it’ Celestion VX10 speaker. But I plugged in an MXR custom compressor pedal in, holy smokes did it add in the ‘air’ and a nice punchy low end. Sometimes a pedal can fix a speaker deficiency.
Did the sama, got one of those keeley compressor plus, saves money on changing speakers.
I agree with Alex. The 10" is more stable. The V30 bite will become tiresome after the initial phase. There is always less bass needed in a live setting..
OK, I've listened to this video twice now and, because the drivers are so different, a comparison is difficult. Would there be any utility to making a reformer 112 cab with a 10" baffle so that identical 10" drivers could be baselined?
You can’t beat the immediacy and mid push of a 1x10.
I prefer 10s for any distorted guitar and lead work and 12s for cleans.
In an ideal world you would have both. Each do their thing well but when you are cutting a lead with a treble booster though a 1x10 the “feel” of immediate response and mid push is hard to beat. As always YMMV
One thing we haven’t sold any of (yet) is a 10”+12” guitar cab - however we’ve just added a 12” to 10” adaptor to our extensive list of customisations, so you can swap a 12” to a 10” without needing a different cab. And then combine that with either stereo wiring and two amps, or an Activier 2 module in the cab to drive each speaker separately.
Can you put a subwoofer in and play some high gain guitar
I'm hoping for a cab with one speaker that pairs well with the 30watt NUX MIGHTY SPACE... which interestingly enough takes bass AND Guitar!! Isn't that the groovy concept. Knowing near to nowt about speakers my question is . Can you recommend one speaker that suits bass AND guitar? I've just watched a comparison review and I thought the biggest speaker sounded best.. 15 or 16 can't recall.. Anyway big then the 10s... Which speaker will not get killed by just plugging in?!
Just replied to your email!
Do you encourage or discourage using a speaker stand with an AVD cabinet? Do they perform best on the floor?
There’s much less need to use a speaker stand than with a conventional cab, but there’s no problem using one if you want to.
10" speakers fit great in a mix. They sit naturally without EQ chopping to death. How many Princetons are on records over the years..
Don’t forget the Tweed Bassmans as well.
Does it inhibit the function of the AVD at all to have the two cabs sitting right next to each other?
Not at all! One of the more interesting things we've noticed with the AVD is that it makes the cab far less bothered by where it is in the room. The only thing that stops the AVD having a significant benefit is if you jam the back of the cab hard against a rear wall - even a 1" (25mm) gap seems to be enough to let it work. Or the unlikely scenario of gigging in an anechoic chamber or an empty field with nothing at all to the rear of the cab.
Not from my 37 years of experience in playing. Sometimes you can get some good sound in recording I think, but live. No. The problem is they sound too small for me. Kind of like listening to an old time radio. They just don't push as well to me. I guess it also might depend on what box you have them in. But hey, to each their own.
For some lead tones the 10" speaker sounds nice, but would prefer the 12" speaker, I'm missing the low frequencies... Maybe a two 10" cabinet will do it right... I would like to hear a comparison between a twin 10" and a twin 12"...
Good thought. My thought is that the bass a speaker produces is determined by the electro/mechanical properties of the speaker which includes the cone mass. So multiple 10s will move more air, but not reproduce lower frequencies. The cab will be louder though. Try a 10 and a 12 if you can. That could do it for you. Please let me know if you think that makes sense.
@@roberthastings708 the frequency range for these 10" speakers are 95Hz - 5500Hz, so normaly it is possible to get low frequencies out of the 10" twin cabinet... But I agree, the 12" speaker has more lows. But it would be fine to have a twin cabinet that don't weight much and sound like 4x12"... I like to play baritone and I don't know if the 10" speaker can handle the high output of the baritone...
@robertdonosobuchner3129 Yes. I was not knowledgeable on the particular specs here. I also play a baritone. Seems like a small club. Tuned B to b, I'm pretty happy with my box that is tuned to 55hz. Better for the lower tuning and harmonics. I do have a 12 in a separate cab for some applications. (Like when my wife is not home) smile, please. I use primarily Eminence speakers. Are you in the UK? I'm in central Texas.
@@roberthastings708 No, I'm from Haltern am See, Germany.
I play guitar for about 44 years now, I started with 15.... In my early days I played blues and rock music, but I always liked the low metal tunings. In the last 4 years I started to go into the metal direction. Since two years I have my baritone, chapman ml1 stormburst and I love it. I have this baritone in standard tuning b. I have one explorer, that has a drop c tuning... So my blues and rock rig does not fit anymore if I want to play metal. At the moment I use an Amp1 Mercury from Bluguitar with a Fatcab... it's ok, but I think I had to buy the Amp1 Iridium and maybe a 2x12" cabinet from barefaced audio... I need a good sound especially if I play fast riffs with my baritone and guitars with low tunings.🙃🤘
@robertdonosobuchner3129 I've been out of the loop, but I am interested in your system. I'll study the pieces I'm not familiar with. I use a Revernd Descent tuned B to b when I play with other guitarists. It gives me a nice place to sit in the mix so not to be in anyone's way. I have many options for amp/speaker combinations. (1) 212 bass (2) 112 and (3) 110 in cabs.Fender Blues Deluxe, 5w single end 6v6, 5w single end EL 83, and a 50w Bugera. For baritone, I like the 12in Eminence cannabis Rex and the Eminence 10in Ragin Cajun at 4 ohms with the 5w EL 83 if my wife is home. 50w Bugera when she's not. (Smile, please)
I agree with and have used similar box designs as the Bareface. It appears that Alex uses a passive radiator to tune the box. I came across passive radiators in the 70s. Good stuff.
Screech?
Give us some crystally chorus and delay
OK! From my experience the sound of the 10 is crisper as the lower mass is faster and hence more definition! 12's are just too slow!
We’ve got some forthcoming 10CR vs 12XN Barefaced cab comparisons which show the opposite - but that’s because there’s a lot more different between them than just the cone diameter. But with the guitar drivers we’ve tried, that quicker tens thing has been pretty consistent.
Hmmm Celestion will never make a 10" copperback will they? Can you imagine wtf it would sound like in a Bearfaced? 🤯 ... I wish I didn't have to lol ... Ask them please? They might listen to you ;) Tell you what ,, if Lemmy was still here I reckon he might have put in an order for a few 8x10s with copperbacks 🤣 (I know they're not for bass but 8 of em might be fun). We'd all be deaf,,,, but happy 🥰 Ps wtf would 8 10" coppers sound like with 4kw going into 1 cab? 1st scene from Back to the Future comes to mind...
Most people at home who never crank their amps past 3-5 won't be able to see any practical difference between a 10 and a 12. When you dime an amp and add overdrive, then you will see a massive difference in speakers. Lots of ten-inch speakers sound great, but they just don't hold up when you crank them and add pedal drive.
This is a very good point! The question of course is why is that happening? Is it a case of motor non-linearity, is it cone suspension non-linearity, or is it cone flex? Or a combination of all three? Lots to investigate…
@@BarefacedAudio yeah that’s beyond me. My understanding is limited my experiences. Let us know what you find out.
@@BarefacedAudioalso, my comment wasn’t meant to discount what you guys are doing, but rather informing newer folks. Lots people jump into modding (spending money) without really investigating what they can accomplish with what they have.
@@READERSENPAII yes, all info is appreciated! To expand on what I said before, is this also a case of single 10” vs equivalent single 12”? Or are we looking at different types of driver? With guitar it’s absolutely possible for a 10” to be more efficient and handle more power than a 12”. And then what happens with two 10” vs one 12”? Lots of variables!
What’s the Impedence inthe 10
They’re both 8 ohm cabs. But does it matter? 🤔
@@BarefacedAudio yes my Reformer is 8ohm. Because my amp pedal puts out 75w with 4ohm, 45w with 8, 20w with 16ohm.
Try an alnico 10" , any make.
We have done, they’re great! I’m sure there’s an alnico 10” video of ours up here…
You're comparing two quite different speakers, it's not just the size...
Yes, I say this all the time when talking about speakers - the nominal diameter is the only thing most people see as a difference but there are numerous other parts that are very different which affects the behaviour in very complex ways.
With that "light,weight" plywood a 2x10" must be the answer to a "broad " sound.
No, because it’s the stiffness of the enclosure and the resonant frequencies and Q of each panel that matters when it comes to how cab construction affects tone (in terms of absorbed and reradiated energy from the panels). And what makes a much bigger difference is how the back wave from the driver combines with the front wave in the room (which is where the AVD blows away closed, open or ported cabs).
To my ears, the 110 sounds like they put a blanket over the 112…
It’s interesting how different people hear different things! Do you hear that on any headphones/speakers you listen to this video through?
@@BarefacedAudio yeah, using airpods. Felt like the 110 was facing the wall almost… hard to describe. The 112 seems to have richer highs and just a more broad range of frequencies overall. I own an Orange Rocker 15 with a G10 Greenback and feel it lacks mostly the bass of my G12M cabinet. Surprised me to fell that in this video, the 110 seems to lack mostly the highs of the 112. But then again, that’s to my ears, through these headphones.
@@dani351 it’s quite a while since we shot this but if I’m remembering correctly, the 12” had more bite but the 10” more air - I think a big difference is how the cones break up and generate harmonic distortion as they flex/shimmer/ripple/etc, with the slightly smaller cone of the 10” being basically cleaner sounding.
@@BarefacedAudio Celestion does try to voice their 10 and 12” speaker equivalents the same but I don’t think they’re very successful in a couple of cases. That could be a factor for a difference in sound too… Keep these videos coming out. I’m always surprised how some players worry about amp, pedals… cables even, and dismiss how crucial their speaker/cabinets are in their sound signature.