@@dustingaethje1332 IMO it's either Ramsay (The whole thing about the wildlings was maybe just to further anger Jon to do something stupid cause he knows how honorable he is, that or he just wanted to torture them, cause you know, he's Ramsay, and Ramsay gotta Ramsay), someone in the watch testing Jon (Less likely, but maybe they saw his loyalty swaying and thought to test him, which he failed), or Mance (Knowing how honorable Jon is, and how the watch works, maybe he wanted Jon to betray the watch's code causing them to kill Jon and keep the wildlings from participating in the war as a result)
@@user-kq5ci7ol8o The bit about Val and Mance's son may also be Ramsay reasoning as a Westerosi and supposing that the Wildlings would act like e.g. the Northmen with the Starks, as in even if they are Jon's allies and dangerously south of the Wall they won't dare raise against him and the Bolton regime once he gets their prince and "princess" hostage (together with their king which he supposedly holds already), I doubt the letter comes from someone in the Watch because even if they somehow knew about Mance surviving how the hell would they know about Reek?
In the books Stannis is about to replay his greatest tactical victory, with even greater success I bet. During the first Greyjoy Rebellion he had trapped the entire Iron Fleet in a straight between 2 rocks and smashed it to bits and now he's about to trap the Frey army within a thin strip of land between 2 frozen lakes poked full of holes. Keep in mind his army is enduring a full fledged Canadian winter, literally balls deep in snow, but he refuses to give up his tactical position in the abandoned village. In the show Stannis gets defeated by 2 inches of snow and 20 goodmen...
i hope so, manderly knights also can help him, but if mance sent the letter, that means stannis is dead, or mance and stannis are ploting so jon can bring reinforces and claim the north under his name
@@ragnar8771 I have no idea why everyone thinks Mance Rayder wrote it. King Stannis spent time with wildings. He knows how they talk. He has the motivation. He has the Dreadfort maester. Why would GRRM go out of his way to write an entire chapter about Stannis and Theon (the only character in the books to take Winterfell) and the Dreadfort Maester? Literally the only thing that makes me think it isn't Stannis is that detail about ravens flying through castles (apparently it can't reach Castle Black from Stannis' camp and that Stannis has no idea that Mance is in Winterfell. Both of these could easily be solved off page. Maybe Theon speaks of the man who helped him and Jeyne escape who had an amulet. Stannis may suspect this to be Mance since he knows much about him. Or he could have known Melisandre and Jon tricked him all along. No way would GRRM decimate a four book long plot because a bird couldn't reach a Castle. Plus Winterfell no longer has any POV characters. I can't see a Bolton win here even if Stannis dies. If those two things are somehow solved, Stannis or someone from his camp checks all the boxes for the pink letter's author. Mance Rayder doesn't have the tools, knowledge, or motivation. Three things not so easy to come by and three things Stannis has. I'm certain Mance will play a big role somehow though. GRRM went out of his way to not kill him. You might even call it plot armour. What is your main reason for thinking Mance wrote it? If so, what is your main reason for thinking Stannis will lose? I can't see it going any other way than a Baratheon victory. Realistically and narratively he must win. The show writers even went out of their way for him to lose. There is no satisfying or even well written way his defeat could play out. There are plenty of great ways he could die after taking Winterfell.
If jon brings free folk to the south mance can do two things= 1- try to take winterfell ( he would have giants to break the gates) and go north to take the wall( would be easy) 2- go directly to the wall and let the free folk cross to make a great army and take all the north.
@@emg7882 So IF Jon literally comes back from the dead, he will for some reason go south? Why? He died trying to go south. Dare I say his death was justice by law. He broke his vows several times and payed the price thousands before him did. Even if Jon does bring the wildlings south. You think Mance Rayder will want to take Winterfell? Or the entire North? and Jon will help him!??!!? Have you even read the books man? It sounds like you are trying so hard to prevent King Stannis from taking Winterfell. GRRM doesn't share plots. That plot belongs to Stannis. If Jon Snow ever comes back, he will stay at Castle Black or go even nore North. The only reason he should come back is if he is Azor Ahai reborn. If he isn't he should stay dead. If he is his plot will be directly linked to the Long Night and the Others. Not stealing Stannis' plot if taking Winterfell which suits Stannis more and is more realistic. If Stannis can't take Winterfell no one can. Even Daenerys' dragons would freeze before reaching the Castle.
@@lykastannis7662 Neither do I. A major plot point in the books is that Mance probably does have the Horn of Winter but refuses to use it, and was instead bringing it South to keep the walkers from obtaining it. Mance needs the Wall up, and he needs a wildling sympathiser to man it, otherwise the wildlings can't marsh south by the time the wall falls. Jon's death threatens his plans, and Mance is too pragmatic to kill Jon for revenge.
In the Books Stannis shows a lot more awareness about knowing about people's thoughts and motivations than you give him credit for and he makes a lot of dry jokes about folks. But yeah it was probably Mance.
@@santiagogarciazapata7422 I don't trust anything in the show after season 5, yeah they might have the "same plot points" but I doubt they'll happen in the same way.
Yeah he's got more of a modern sense of humor compared to everyone else in the series- more one-liners, deadpan snarking to everyone, while everyone else thinks jesters are funny.
He was even the one who initiated the investigation into Joffrey's parentage. And we saw that he's certainly not above subterfuge when he assassinated Renly.
Stannis's battle must be a reflection of Alexander Nevsky's famous 'Battle on the Ice,' in 1242, when he defeated the Crusaders by drawing them onto a frozen lake. GRRM really does love his history, doesn't he?
@@djordjedangubic7270 That moment someone forgets that George said the show's last season went more or less how his book was going to go. Lmao. Books are usually better, but don't dump on the show without the grain of salt that it's basically how George envisioned it would go.
Xenosas yeah, but George will actually build it up better and not rushed it. I had zero problems with what happened in season 8, but the way it was executed, was really rushed and sloppy.
Oh, Stannis. He was the only king we ever wanted. But somebody took him away from us, and nothing in the final 3 seasons could fill the hole he left behind.
@@dragosmic4903 season 5 was good because at the end of season 5 jon dies and daenerys flies away on drogon so it was synced with the final book it all went downhill with season 6.
@@astrojeet Stannis dying you mean? Yeah that was stupid see if how he's still alive in the books and is in just as bad a position as the Boltons who are trapped in winterfell due to a snowstorm.
I feel like the lack of description about the letter could just be a way of showing how furious Ramsay is, and how he's unraveling psychologically. He's normally very theatrical and precise with his blood-ink and tightly rolled letters, but this letter was written in a hurry.
@@Isuream6331and why tho, he didn't lose Arya or Sansa, just his false Stark and also Theon, and call me crazy but i don't thing he cares that much about him
@@andorea11 He named Theon Reek due to his strange attachment to the old Reek, which is why he is bothered there. As for fake Arya, she is his ticket to being Lord of Winterfell, which he uses as a sign of his legitimacy. Without her, he is afraid he won’t be seen as legitimate anymore
I love Wyman Manderly! That dude is a straight savage! He not only cooks up some Frey pie and serves it to everyone at Winterfell, but he eats multiple slices himself and savors every bite.
@@bigassboy9343 I don't think Stannis will burn Shireen, but I do believe Melisandre will do to resurrect Jon. Which would fit in with the books and all, and if the Mannis really is alive, it'd probably create conflict between the two (though more resent-wise rather than Stannis wanting to cut Jon's head off, though it's likely Jon will give Mel the chop as retribution, and giving her a last POV) maybe even result in Stannis damning Rhllor (which would be a neat rhyme of poetry with him damning the Seven Gods)
Same, every time I rewatch the show stannis’ death depresses me lol I want him to beat the Bolton’s, take the North, and focus on the white walkers like he’s supposed to
I reckon it was someone at the watch. Explains how a raven made it despite conditions, explains how they know about stuff happening at the wall, and the watch use Johns reaction to the letter to justify doing a Julius Caesar. Even the smear makes more sense if they had to reuse the pink wax from the last Ramsay letter.
I have a good hunch that it's gonna happen the second half of this year. I don't know... I never had this feeling in the last 9 years, but now... now I do.
I read the pre-released chapters for Winds of Winter recently, and it has made me so impatient for the other books to be released. I didn't start to read the books until we were 5, maybe 6 seasons deep, but now that I've finished them all, I understand why you poor book readers are so impatient hahaha
Almost for me. The book series is almost certainly going to be left unfinished, unless Martin somehow lives to 110. It's such a great series and the author just refuses to write any more of the stuff we want. Side stories and gap fillers are great but 9 years and still no release date just kills the series for me. Even if The Winds of Winter comes out tomorrow I'm still not picking it up until we have a book 7 release date with a confirmation that book 7 is the last in the series, because Martin could easily say he needs another 3 books to wrap everything up.
I'm suprised you didn't mention how Theon directly quotes the Pink Letter in Theon I of Winds ("He wants his bride back. He wants his Reek.") So that lends credence to it being faked by him and Stannis.
@@lw3106 Davos was sent by Manderly from White Harbor to Skagos to find Rickon. And it wouldn't fit his personality either to fabricate letters such way, leaving aside the fact he can barely read
GRRM loves history. One of the most famous battles in history is the "battle of the ice" where Nevsky defeated the Crusaders by tempting them onto the ice with heavy cavalry. They fell through, were destroyed, and Slavic Europe remained Orthodox. Stannis is the best general in Westeros and the legitimate King, while Ramsey Bolton is an impetuous vicious idiot. We will be seeing more of Stannis. It is a shame that the tv show was run by idiots, as a quick look at Eisensteins movie would show the potential of the battle of the ice.
One nitpick I just can't let go - EASTERN Slavic Europe, which is by far not all of it, I can tell you that as a Pole. And there are Czechs, Slovaks, Sorbs (not Serbs!), Croatians, and Slovenians too on the non-orthodox side. Eastern Slavs aren't any more (or less) Slavic than Western or Southern ones. Edit: rearranged the listing, as it might have looked slightly misleading
@@Richardnixonloyalist Not Serbs. Sorbs. Totally different Slavs, living mostly in eastern Germany. Edit: I've realised that the way I wrote that before might have been misleading and indeed suggest I meant Serbs, so now it's corrected.
I think it’s most likely that Mance wrote it at Melisandre’s behest. She knows Stannis is in trouble and that Jon may be the only one who can save him, and she knows that Jon’s destiny is to leave the watch. It still doesn’t explain why Theon is mentioned in the letter though. Although Mance could’ve added the part about Val and the child on his own.
Good idea. Theon might simply be in it to lend believability to the author of the note. Might seem weird if he were never mentioned. He's shown to be pretty attached to reek
It would really fit the tone of the story if Stannis wins at Winterfell. It's just too upbeat for The Starks to take it. Far better for a grey character, like Stannis, to have that triumph.
Lane Stapp he is for sure. He is extremely utilitarian (slightly less so in the books) which makes him cold and makes him ruthless. I agree he is pretty much a good guy but not a nice guy
George R R Martin is in a great position where he literally can’t make the ending to the books any worse than the tv series. So even if it sucks people will still view it positively.
Wellll... I think GRRM doesn't intend on finishing the series, because as long as everyone can imagine their own ideal ending, everyone's gonna like the story (with that cool imagined ending, or at least none, which is better than a bad one I guess). So far he's perceived as this genius storyteller, but when the ending is set in stone, some people are bound to be disappointed and his reputation will suffer for it. ...either that or he's having a much harder time tying things up than just letting his imagination flow, because if I remember correctly, he once described his writing process as setting the stage, imagining character's personalities and relationships, and letting everything flow naturally from there. I think it's much harder ending a story that way, than just continuing it. Also, writing this MUST get harder and harder the further the story progresses, because when writing book 1, he could change anything on a whim, leaving him total freedom, with book 2, there was only one book he had to be consistent with. Now it's 5 books he can't change and probably has to check regularly to make sure things fit together. He probably keeps thinking up stuff, checking the previous books for contradictions, and going "Aw hell, that doesn't work!" So yeah, as I see it, the story is over. I'm not one of those claiming not to care anymore, I do, otherwise I probably wouldn't have written this comment on a 4 year old video, but I've stopped actively hoping and wishing for an ending. If we're lucky we'll get Winds of Winter at least... Wouldn't hold my breath
still is .. as game of thrones is the 1ST book in " a song of fire and ice " still i felt cheated in season 8... may the old gods give us a great final few books... wont hold my breath ...yet .... IF the books are great as the ones before were... greeatest come back ever... and will be for us book readers only.. rest will just be thoses who dont truly know.... soryy 4 ramble its is know me with a little whiskey and 7 up and a bowl or two to be honest... i might talk a little shit...
When people read about The Long Night centuries later, they'll read about Jon Snow and Daenerys Targaryen's heroic efforts in the war. But everyone will forget about Stannis Baratheon, the man who got people to look Beyond-The-Wall and led the army of the living. Most of Westeros will forget his actions... but The North Remembers...
If Stannis has Manderly on his side and the element of surprise like you say, he'd have as good a chance as possible already to beat the Boltons and wouldn't need a ragtag bunch of wildlings to help him. With 100% surprise and an a hostile army already inside their walls, there wouldn't be much hope for the Boltons in Winterfell.
@@willson1908 Probably not. But he also wouldn't deny it openly. It's possible that the letter was either sent before Roose could talk to Ramsay in private, or Ramsay was too livid about loosing Jayne and Reek to care.
I was under the impression that Bowen et al. had been plotting Jon's assassination for a while, and had been waiting for a chance. Throughout the books Bowen and others are clearly upset about Jon's actions and the way Jon refuses to explain his actions. The diversion with Wun Wun fighting Ser Patrek, combined with Jon not having his wolf, provided the opportunity. It seems unlikely several of the NW would spontaneously execute Jon in such immediate response to his plan to ride south, especially in the middle of a deadly fight involving a giant.
Yeah having just completed a reread it looks like Bowen was plotting this for a while. The Pink Letter arriving and the chaos in the yard provided ample opportunity to carry out an assassination. Not saying Bowen and the rest orchestrated that, it was simply opportunistic.
YES! I'm surprised this wasn't mentioned in the video. There's clearly a motive: Getting Jon to break his oath so they can put an end to him and have an excuse
The Battle of Ice results is all I’m really interested in anymore. I’m a Stannis fan and I want to see the Bolton’s go down. God I hope the books don’t end like the show.... it’s all so disappointing.
@@jasonfuentz7681 Jon being a Targaryen is p cool and I’m not opposed to him getting himself some Dany. I remember GRRM talking about how disappointed he was that Tolkien brought Gandalf back so I’m very afraid of if his death is permanent for the books. Maybe he is at a point where he understands why he didn’t let Gandalf die, or maybe not.
I think Stannis will take Winterfell and make Sansa Stark the Warden of the North. He’d win the support of most Northern House along the Vale. He’ll be preparing for the March south on Kingslanding but The Others will attack and he’ll likely go out in a blaze of glory against them defending his Kingdom from evil.
I used to live and breathe through those videos, shame how GoT got most of those carefully thought theories into nothing more than a theoretical script that's way better than what the show ended up being. Nevertheless, keep up the good work, i missed those videos a lot!
@@redblueproductions9739 i am aware mate. I simply said that everybody was diving deep into those theories and expected to see them in the show as well, and the show proved to be a big pile of shit.
@@Premoguys I binged almost every alt shift x video before season 8 came out. That definitely made it worse in the end. Still the biggest disappointment I've ever had with a tv series. Annoys me to even think about it
@@Premoguys Yeah of course theories that are based purely on the books wont be in the show but one can still hope right? Most of these theories were however books only stuf and inportant characters that were involved were rarely in the show anyway. Not to mention that around season 5 where most of these misteries poped up D&D heavilly altered the story and cut out alot of stuf. Then people claimed show was bad because they ran out of source material but they didnt. They simply cut it all out. They did leave some big theories and reveals in like R+L=J or Mad Dany but they were so poorly established, shown and used it honestly would have been better if they left them out completely
@@Premoguys the tv show is a completely hollow and surface level bastardization version of the books (Last 4 seasons). So of course they didnt have all of this interesting stuff that the books have.
I chuckled at it too, but it makes sense to put it this way for 2 reasons: 1) The letter calls him MY Reek, implying he is A Reek 2) In the books, Theon is indeed A Reek, because he's not the first. Ramsay had at least one other tortured pet slave he named Reek before
Pink Letter: Early Patron Release You: _Accidentally releases it normally_ Non-Patrons: *It's Free Real Estate* Great video though, I'm a Stannis Hypebeast.
"Manipulating Jon isn't something Stannis would do." This reminds me of Stannis's opening scene in book 2 where the Maester is being humiliated by the red priestess and Stannis joins in by making him wear patches jesters crown. The Maester thinks 'You were never one to mock, not before you met her' I'm paraphrasing of course. But it does go to show you that Stannis HAS changed in his ways ever since becoming Azor Ahai (supposedly).
Melisandre is the one who puts the jester crown on Cressen and Selyse is the one making the louder jokes. Stannis allows it at first, but he's very uncomfortable and then stops the humilliation.
imo there Stannis is trying hard to fuck up Melisandre's prophecy that Cressen will "betray" him by poisoning her, possibly because he trusts Cressen (or maybe even loves him and doesn't want him to die) but surely also because he's a skeptic and doesn't believe that Melisandre has actual powers, so if he manages to make what she predicted not happen he's proving that her visions are not real or at least not absolute, that's why he tries to have him leave the feast and why he doesn't have him called for it in the first place, mockery certainly isn't a goal or trait of his in the rest of the books
This. I, like many others, desire them deeply. Though I think GRRM knows this and his ultimate joy steal is not going to be killing characters he made us fall in love with. He'll be killing the whole series.
George is the reason the show's version of him is so popular, they stuck to the source material and the actor pulled it off in full. But when they had no more material for him, they got rid of him. The writers didn't know how to juggle the many characters in ASOIAF like George does.
He may not be the true hero of the story, but if nothing else, dude deserves to die fighting a White Walker or something; give him the soldier's death Robert never got.
I definitely think it was Mance. Even though we don't know what his motives were, he has enough secrets that there are plenty of possible reasons to motivate him to do this, although we can't know what's going on with him until the next book. Aside from the convincing analysis of the letter's wording matching up with Mance's vocabulary, he's also pretty much the only person who would know about all of the details mentioned in the letter. The next-closest possibility is that he was captured and forced to give up his secrets to Ramsay, but Mance doesn't seem the type to crumble under torture, and the whole point of the letter is that it seems to be written by Ramsay but upon closer examination probably wasn't, which makes Ramsay pretty much the least likely candidate.
I feel they did Stannis so dirty on the show. I feel like they reversed the deaths of Stannis and Selyse, with the Red Witch still at the wall with Jon, Selyse, and Shireen, I feel Mel burns Shireen to bring back Jon. Jon comes back and beheads Selyse while Stannis finds out and hangs himself. idk why i think this either. Also I think That Theon and Asha are Stannis' prisoners outside of Winterfell, so If Ramseys had killed Stannis he'd have his Reek, so that is another inconstancy.
Ramsay could have written the letter but lied about having defeated Stannis, or, as suggested in this video, have been tricked into thinking Stannis is defeated when he isn’t, in which case he wouldn’t know that Stannis has Theon/Reek.
It's an interesting idea, but Stannis doesn't really seem like the type to hanging himself over the death of his wife or daughter. In fact, I don't really recall him ever giving a shit about them in the books.
i can’t see stannis hanging himself. imo he’ll be executed after refusing to “bend the knee” in the face of defeat; all the symbolism about knees that don’t bend can’t amount to nothing
@@Grewyn7 I completely agree. Season 6 was the last season that I truly enjoyed. Cersei blew up the sept!! It was so fucking epic. But I could tell that something was fucked up when 7 came out. Something changed. Big time.
Just finished ADWD, started on the first book last summer. I had no clue Abel was actually Mance, I always miss such details, but of course it's him. Loved the ending with Kevan and Varys making a cool comeback. My favorite storylines in this book were probably Quentyn, Griff and Selmy
Man, I had the exact same feeling just now watching this video. I remember feeling sketched out by abel and the women and really wondering what was up with them and also at the same time wondering what had happened to Mance and the women. I was even wondering if one of the women was that captured wildling woman that saved Bran back in Winterfell. There is this one very specific line when Theon & the gang are escaping winterfell and they have to do some climbing and one of the women remarks that she has climbed the wall when she was but a young girl. I legit feel like a retard for not connecting the dots until this video, I also seem to miss soooo much of these things lol
I figured it out almost immediatly. Once Theon mentioned a singer I went back to see what his name was, then I immediatly knew it was Mance. Although me figuring it out the first time the singer showed up probably has something to do with me being spoiled about Mance being in Winterfell with his spear wifes before I reached ADWD
one of the most interesting discussions from the winds of winter. kinda glad it wasnt answered or mentioned in the show. us book readers still have big topics to look forward to
I assume the Nights Watch wrote it, likely Alliser Thorne, as a “see this guy isnt fit to be lord commander.” ploy/trap. the language is too on the nose and obvious for it to be Mance, so i think whoever wrote it is trying to pin it on the wildlings, (which also benefits the nights watch)
this is the kind of video i've been craving for a while, and now my hype for winds is reinvigorated. also, i think the different handwriting is easily explained because ramsay had reek write the first two letters (brown, bloody text + erratic spiky handwriting seems in keeping with a tortured, desperate man writing a letter in his own blood), where this one was ramsay himself.
@@RedRoseSeptember22 check out "Macabre storytelling" He has rewrites of characters I've seen a lot of rewrite videos, but he is my favorite so far. Let me know what you think
Dude, book readers been dealing with that shit ever since season 5. It just continued to get worse with every season. The Dorne storyline still haunts my dreams. Plus, the way Tyrion was written from Season 6-8 just makes me cringe thinking about it.
The change in letters could come down to Ramsey's loss of composure of losing Jeyne who was pretending to be Arya. Without her a "Stark" to pacify the North he probably feels the walls closing on him with Stannis lurking and didn't meet with anyone of the other Northerners to get them to sign the letter for fear of them betraying him if he meets them alone. So he rushed this letter unlike the others.
This feels the most likely answer, to me. He's absolutely pissed, not just because he lost something he valued, but also because as a recently legitimized bastard, he is threatened politically by his father and any new sons he may have by his Frey wife. Until he has a properly consummated marriage and an heir, Roose can always just "take-backseys" his naming of Ramsey as his heir. He still views him as a bastard, and cares little for him, beyond his use as an attack dog. Ramsey is desperately insecure about his bastardy, and that his father doesn't view him as his true heir, so he NEEDS a trueborn wife and heir to solidify his position. You can see his insecurity bleed through when, in the Pink Letter, he emphasizes his title in the signature, as "Trueborn Lord of Winterfell".
When I heard the pre released chapters for Theon, I thought he had been quoted by Stannis in the letter. He tells Stannis Ramsay wants his bride back, and his Reek back. Stannis tells Justin Massey that he may hear Stannis is dead. And Stannis has always wanted Jon to go to Winterfell. Aaaaand you just got to that part in the video. So yeah. That's my guess.
i think hell do one more book, and maybe in 30 years finish the last, or let it be finished by other authers he trust. it hope. but honestly i dont think well see an "ending" written by george
@@seelfire4725 I think he's just not hungry anymore. When creators are starting out, they produce huge volumes of work just to keep a roof over their heads. But when you've got licensing money coming out of your ears, there's a lot less push to get the job done. In any event, I hope I'm wrong. I really do want the last two books to come out.
@@johnschwartz1641 I heard somewhere a theory that he'd really finished them both already and now He only waits for hype from tv show to die out and then release them one after another. Now when even prequel show was canceled and think its more plausible .
I would listen to you read the ingredients off a cereal box your voice is so hypnotic. Seriously, you could have one hell of a career doing audio books! I feel like purring listening to you.
I read the 5 books in 2010-2011. I then started watching the show. In 2019 I got the 5 books again but on audible. I listened to the first 4 and maybe half of the 5. I was getting so excited for the final tv season. By the end of the show I had to put down the audiobook. Still half way thru the 5th and I haven’t been able to finish it. The alt shift x vids were a nice discovery. Thanks for making all these.
My boy Stannis better fucking win. They did him so dirty in the show he deserves to win the iron throne. Even if Dany eventually kills him, he deserves to win because he cares.
I think Mance has a good motivation for writing it. All the threats in the letter are supposed to motivate Jon to take action - which is take wildlings and nights watch to come to Winterfell. The question is why? That depends on what happened at Winterfell at the writing of the letter. Stannis could have the castle under siege or marching towards it - so reinforcements would be the goal. He could also have coordinated the ploy with Stannis or Manderly. Mance also wants to get his people south and having Jon betray his vows would be a cherry on top for Mance.
I think at the time of writing even GRRM didn't know who wrote it, which is why he placed things in there to make it hard to guess. However, I think he may go with the Mance Rayder wrote it answer in Winds if we get it sometime in the next decade.
No he 100% knew who wrote it. 200 pages were cut from the end of Dance and moved to the opening of Winds including both the Battle of Ice with Stannis and the Boltons and the Battle of Fire at Mereen. The answer is definitely in there somewhere and was written well before Dance was published.
Maybe GRRM might change his mind and change who wrote it (he's changed up the plot before from getting bored of it), but he definitely has someone in mind who wrote it.
It's probably Mance. No one else would use the Crow terminology. Stannis can't know about Reek, Melisandre warned Jon, and this is not Ramsay's style. He asked for his wife and children because that's what Ramsay would have asked according to his logic. Ramsay is the enemy of both Jon and the Freefolks. He would demand the bride of the former king and his heir, to avoid future problems. He of course knows that Jon won't bring him the girl, so his wife is safe. He also knows that if the Battle for Winterfell goes bad, his wife is dead.
Mance would have begun his infiltration under the impression that stannis would be available to contact outside winterfell. That's because the storm didn't pick up until stannis approached, hence he camped in the small town, making his arrival unclear with no point of contact. That would have been going on for a few days while mance was stuck in winterfell. Given that he couldn't just ask Jon for a rescue (or Jon would have gone himself), he needed a false flag to provoke a rescue group, leaning heavily on wildlings.
Fire and Blood is such a great book. I've read it eight times already and I can't get enough of it. I really want vol. 2, so we can learn more about my favorite sot King Aegon IV. Plus, we will get Baelor The Blessed's crazy ass and the Blackfyre Rebellion. I of course want the main series finished first, but I really hope we will get vol. 2 at some point.
O god this is so much better than last season of GoT. This is so much in the line of sociological story telling than one was done on the show. Man I am big fan of your work some years now. Thank you for all the work and analysis. To me your videos is even more enjoyable than the show it self. Keep up the good work.
Great video but I think you’re overlooking one major thing. Ser Pounce has been awfully quiet up to this point. Don’t rule him out as a candidate for writing this letter…
Sometimes I like to come back to these videos to cleanse my pallet of season 5-8. The only good thing about season 8 is that it makes season 5 and 6 look good.
In A Dance with Dragons, different forms of communication are revealed and discussed. We learn about the obsidian candles and how Marwyn the Mage has been using one to communicate with the Faceless Men. We learn about the Weirwood trees and the concept of the Weirwood network in Bran's training. And dreams as a form of communication and possible direction or even misdirection, although this is not the first time dreams as a form of communication has come up. When the Northerners rescue Theon and Jeyne Pool, Theon is brought to Stannis in that tower with the fire beacon. Apparently he's been spending almost all his time just staring into it. Back at Castle Black, we know that Melissandre has been spending a lot of time looking into the flame. I think they're communicating with one another. Deception is typically not a tactic that Stannis would employ, it's not very in keeping with his character. Melissandre on the other hand, employs deception constantly. The very nature of her glimor is deception. So I think Melissandre advised Stannis to draw Jon Snow out from Castle Black. The best way to do this is to make him believe he's all that's left to help his sister. Thus the letter talks about Stannis being defeated, Mance is captured, the Boltons have secured their position and there's no one left but Jon that might be able to stop them. It's perfect for Stannis. Jon will leave Castle Black, learn that Stannis army still stands and he's still alive, only it will be too late for Jon to turn back. He'll have to aide Stannis in the Battle for Winterfell and with Jon's knowledge of the castle, Stannis will be victorious. Also, perhaps more so than helping Stannis, Melissandre might have come up with this plan as a way of getting Jon away from Castle Black to try to save his life. This is the theory that I have settled on, but Mance writing it is also plausible. Anyone that takes the Pink Letter at face value is a retard. The first time I read the Pink Letter, I got so mad at the show runners for what they did.
Who do you think wrote the Pink Letter?
Check out the ASOIAF books on Audible: www.audible.com/asx
@Alt Shift X Obviously Hot Pie.
And still.... you know nothing Alt Shift.
Mance sent the letter.
Lord Manderly was my first pick
Mance
Meanwhile Patch Face: "yeah, everything is coming together"
I know oh OH oh oh
Patch Face VS Moon Boy is the real story of ASOIAF
@@wisemankugelmemicus1701 I want these JoJo stands to fight.
The shadows are coming to dance mylord, dance mylord dance mylord, I know, oh oh oh!
Hodor.
I just watched a 20 minute video about how a letter signed by Ramsey was probably sent by Ramsey.... and I loved every second of it
The chances of that are very low in my opinion
@@dustingaethje1332 IMO it's either Ramsay (The whole thing about the wildlings was maybe just to further anger Jon to do something stupid cause he knows how honorable he is, that or he just wanted to torture them, cause you know, he's Ramsay, and Ramsay gotta Ramsay), someone in the watch testing Jon (Less likely, but maybe they saw his loyalty swaying and thought to test him, which he failed), or Mance (Knowing how honorable Jon is, and how the watch works, maybe he wanted Jon to betray the watch's code causing them to kill Jon and keep the wildlings from participating in the war as a result)
@@user-kq5ci7ol8o The bit about Val and Mance's son may also be Ramsay reasoning as a Westerosi and supposing that the Wildlings would act like e.g. the Northmen with the Starks, as in even if they are Jon's allies and dangerously south of the Wall they won't dare raise against him and the Bolton regime once he gets their prince and "princess" hostage (together with their king which he supposedly holds already), I doubt the letter comes from someone in the Watch because even if they somehow knew about Mance surviving how the hell would they know about Reek?
its about the journey not the destination
@@dustingaethje1332 as a UFC fan your name and avatar made me crack up 😂😂😂
In the books Stannis is about to replay his greatest tactical victory, with even greater success I bet. During the first Greyjoy Rebellion he had trapped the entire Iron Fleet in a straight between 2 rocks and smashed it to bits and now he's about to trap the Frey army within a thin strip of land between 2 frozen lakes poked full of holes. Keep in mind his army is enduring a full fledged Canadian winter, literally balls deep in snow, but he refuses to give up his tactical position in the abandoned village.
In the show Stannis gets defeated by 2 inches of snow and 20 goodmen...
i hope so, manderly knights also can help him, but if mance sent the letter, that means stannis is dead, or mance and stannis are ploting so jon can bring reinforces and claim the north under his name
@@ragnar8771 I have no idea why everyone thinks Mance Rayder wrote it. King Stannis spent time with wildings. He knows how they talk. He has the motivation. He has the Dreadfort maester. Why would GRRM go out of his way to write an entire chapter about Stannis and Theon (the only character in the books to take Winterfell) and the Dreadfort Maester? Literally the only thing that makes me think it isn't Stannis is that detail about ravens flying through castles (apparently it can't reach Castle Black from Stannis' camp and that Stannis has no idea that Mance is in Winterfell. Both of these could easily be solved off page. Maybe Theon speaks of the man who helped him and Jeyne escape who had an amulet. Stannis may suspect this to be Mance since he knows much about him. Or he could have known Melisandre and Jon tricked him all along. No way would GRRM decimate a four book long plot because a bird couldn't reach a Castle. Plus Winterfell no longer has any POV characters. I can't see a Bolton win here even if Stannis dies. If those two things are somehow solved, Stannis or someone from his camp checks all the boxes for the pink letter's author. Mance Rayder doesn't have the tools, knowledge, or motivation. Three things not so easy to come by and three things Stannis has. I'm certain Mance will play a big role somehow though. GRRM went out of his way to not kill him. You might even call it plot armour. What is your main reason for thinking Mance wrote it? If so, what is your main reason for thinking Stannis will lose? I can't see it going any other way than a Baratheon victory. Realistically and narratively he must win. The show writers even went out of their way for him to lose. There is no satisfying or even well written way his defeat could play out. There are plenty of great ways he could die after taking Winterfell.
If jon brings free folk to the south mance can do two things=
1- try to take winterfell ( he would have giants to break the gates) and go north to take the wall( would be easy)
2- go directly to the wall and let the free folk cross to make a great army and take all the north.
@@emg7882 So IF Jon literally comes back from the dead, he will for some reason go south? Why? He died trying to go south. Dare I say his death was justice by law. He broke his vows several times and payed the price thousands before him did. Even if Jon does bring the wildlings south. You think Mance Rayder will want to take Winterfell? Or the entire North? and Jon will help him!??!!? Have you even read the books man? It sounds like you are trying so hard to prevent King Stannis from taking Winterfell. GRRM doesn't share plots. That plot belongs to Stannis. If Jon Snow ever comes back, he will stay at Castle Black or go even nore North. The only reason he should come back is if he is Azor Ahai reborn. If he isn't he should stay dead. If he is his plot will be directly linked to the Long Night and the Others. Not stealing Stannis' plot if taking Winterfell which suits Stannis more and is more realistic. If Stannis can't take Winterfell no one can. Even Daenerys' dragons would freeze before reaching the Castle.
@@lykastannis7662 Neither do I. A major plot point in the books is that Mance probably does have the Horn of Winter but refuses to use it, and was instead bringing it South to keep the walkers from obtaining it. Mance needs the Wall up, and he needs a wildling sympathiser to man it, otherwise the wildlings can't marsh south by the time the wall falls. Jon's death threatens his plans, and Mance is too pragmatic to kill Jon for revenge.
"Fans have had a lot of time to overthink it." A truer statement was never made.
Maybe if the fat man actually finished his books instead of watching football games, fans wouldn't have to do that
Except when Stannis claimed to be the rightful king of Westeros
Yup.
@@Zoorsos Depends
@@juliancain3872 no, he is the rightful heir. Any man who denies that is my foe
It wasn't Jon Snow. There's no reference to "she's my queen" and "I don't want it."
Jon - i nEveR aSkEd fOr iT
@@thorin2152 Jon - aY duNnO wHAt elsE tO sAy
@@nunyabiznes33 John- SaYiNg NotHiNg snow
@@thorin2152 Jon -i NeVeR wAnTeD iT
jon snow also knows nothing
Finally, back to the books baby.
have the new books finally been published?
pramitbanerjee naw, George said we’re getting the next book soon but I wouldn’t count on it
No!! I don’t think they ever will be published
@@kimberleymorris8052 Don't be like that.
@@dr.embersfield1551 it's true. The last one came out in 2011 ffs
My Theory: George R. R. Martin wrote it.
Sir Twenty Goodman wrote it.
Lightning Farron damn it! It all makes sense now......
i liked this comment before it got 1 000
@@redblueproductions9739 LOL. 😂
@@redblueproductions9739 House HalfTruth agrees.
In the Books Stannis shows a lot more awareness about knowing about people's thoughts and motivations than you give him credit for and he makes a lot of dry jokes about folks. But yeah it was probably Mance.
Its sad to know Stannis fate, my favorite character from the books, the true King!
@@santiagogarciazapata7422 Stannis is well and alive.
@@santiagogarciazapata7422 I don't trust anything in the show after season 5, yeah they might have the "same plot points" but I doubt they'll happen in the same way.
Yeah he's got more of a modern sense of humor compared to everyone else in the series- more one-liners, deadpan snarking to everyone, while everyone else thinks jesters are funny.
He was even the one who initiated the investigation into Joffrey's parentage. And we saw that he's certainly not above subterfuge when he assassinated Renly.
Stannis's battle must be a reflection of Alexander Nevsky's famous 'Battle on the Ice,' in 1242, when he defeated the Crusaders by drawing them onto a frozen lake. GRRM really does love his history, doesn't he?
Good observation. Martin has created many scenes directly inspired by medieval history. This might be another example.
Or Napoleon's similar maneuver with cannons in his war with Russia.
@@britfox7766 oh boy
@@softdrink-0 beg pardon?
big Russian MYTH!
Stannis lighting a false beacon seems symbolic to me because he is a false flame himself. A false fiery hero a false beacon.
good one!
Stannis is a hero. Maybe not Azor Ahai, maybe he will die, but he is one of the most heroic person in the books.
@@gothicgothic2839 of course he will die, and then will be reborn as he is Azor Ahai
The blue eyed king with a red glowing sword who has no shadow
@@OjlobnelStannis will be reborn as Jon snow?
OMG! It all makes sense now, new theory. Stannis dies and inhabits Jon Snow’s corpse
This contrasts so much with the show's simplicity and rushed stupidity
Thats why D&D wrote the pink letter
thats true show is like summary of whole story ( books ). After they run out book material show quality went down and become really predictable.
@@belisarius6949 lmaoooo
@@djordjedangubic7270 That moment someone forgets that George said the show's last season went more or less how his book was going to go. Lmao. Books are usually better, but don't dump on the show without the grain of salt that it's basically how George envisioned it would go.
Xenosas yeah, but George will actually build it up better and not rushed it. I had zero problems with what happened in season 8, but the way it was executed, was really rushed and sloppy.
Oh, Stannis. He was the only king we ever wanted. But somebody took him away from us, and nothing in the final 3 seasons could fill the hole he left behind.
Shush. We got the books, made by someone who actually gives a fuck about the lore.
Ironic paraphrasing of the brother who actually never liked Stannis.
It was D'n'D who left the hole in the plot.
Brogan Brainstorm He was the king YOU wanted.
Fire and Blood!
@@dylanchouinard6141 eh, tyrants and brother fuckers. Stannis had the legitimate claim.
this has more plot density and complexity than the whole season 8
Umm..than seasons 5,6, 7 AND 8, actually.
@@shawn6669 I remember season 5 being pretty good and 6 being alright, were they actually that bad?
@@dragosmic4903 season 5 was good because at the end of season 5 jon dies and daenerys flies away on drogon so it was synced with the final book it all went downhill with season 6.
@@karldilkington8802 There were many other things wrong with season 5.
@@astrojeet Stannis dying you mean? Yeah that was stupid see if how he's still alive in the books and is in just as bad a position as the Boltons who are trapped in winterfell due to a snowstorm.
I feel like the lack of description about the letter could just be a way of showing how furious Ramsay is, and how he's unraveling psychologically. He's normally very theatrical and precise with his blood-ink and tightly rolled letters, but this letter was written in a hurry.
3 years ago, I know, but the idea of Ramsay mentally unraveling is funny to me. Like, how could he POSSIBLY get MORE crazy?
@@Isuream6331and why tho, he didn't lose Arya or Sansa, just his false Stark and also Theon, and call me crazy but i don't thing he cares that much about him
@@andorea11 He named Theon Reek due to his strange attachment to the old Reek, which is why he is bothered there.
As for fake Arya, she is his ticket to being Lord of Winterfell, which he uses as a sign of his legitimacy. Without her, he is afraid he won’t be seen as legitimate anymore
I love Wyman Manderly! That dude is a straight savage! He not only cooks up some Frey pie and serves it to everyone at Winterfell, but he eats multiple slices himself and savors every bite.
I mostly just hope that the readers win. We really could use it right now.
Wait. I know you.
we’ve already won lmao
@@MRJTD99 You have committed crimes against Skyrim and her people. What say you in your defense?
@@jinxedsphinx3600 you caught me. I'll pay off my bounty (1 gold)
Why? What was so wrong with the readers in February 2020? Boohoooooooo
Oh gosh, 9 years!? He wrote the first three in the same time span... Depressing
He said he was having trouble mending all the numerous stories together for the ending
Yeah not to mention all the episodes he wrote as well as the spinoff books. We should send life coaches and motivational speakers to GRRM's home.
@@jedisentinel4879 it's almost like the books needed to focus more on key points instead of ballooning out of control...
but the first 3 originally was going to be the first book,so everything was planned from the beginning,feast and dance werent planned
@@Chris_Davis_music we should send David Goggins
I hope Stannis defeat the Boltons in the books, the show writers did him dirty.
I don't care, I just don't want him to burn Shireen.
@@bigassboy9343
Why did they do that to us?
"She was good, and she was kind,
and you killed her."
@@bigassboy9343 I don't think Stannis will burn Shireen, but I do believe Melisandre will do to resurrect Jon. Which would fit in with the books and all, and if the Mannis really is alive, it'd probably create conflict between the two (though more resent-wise rather than Stannis wanting to cut Jon's head off, though it's likely Jon will give Mel the chop as retribution, and giving her a last POV) maybe even result in Stannis damning Rhllor (which would be a neat rhyme of poetry with him damning the Seven Gods)
Same, every time I rewatch the show stannis’ death depresses me lol I want him to beat the Bolton’s, take the North, and focus on the white walkers like he’s supposed to
@@upsyndrome223 I never watch anything past Season 4
It’s so refreshing to know that in the book everything makes sense and in the show it’s just a dream
If the books ever finish the show will only be known as fan fiction. Not just fan fiction but bad fiction, very bad
@@mrj4082 Would you have rather the show did everything the way Martin intends and have it spoil the books before they come out?
@@jmeds94yes
Its not likely that books will ever be released. I hope I am wrong but its unlikely @@jmeds94
@@jmeds94 hot take, but they shouldn't have made the show until the books were close to finish.
Year 13 and we still don't know who sent the letter.
George RR Martin.
@@1helluvaguy738I don’t know
Watch the video again
😂😹🤣😹 madness!
I reckon it was someone at the watch. Explains how a raven made it despite conditions, explains how they know about stuff happening at the wall, and the watch use Johns reaction to the letter to justify doing a Julius Caesar.
Even the smear makes more sense if they had to reuse the pink wax from the last Ramsay letter.
Oh wow. You just made me care about game of thrones again lol. Here's to hoping the last two books are ever released...
Me too!!! I've been so got depressed since season 7 and 8. This reignites my hope and passion for TWOW.
@@UAPReportingCenter I really have missed the game of thrones a lot...
I have a good hunch that it's gonna happen the second half of this year. I don't know... I never had this feeling in the last 9 years, but now... now I do.
I read the pre-released chapters for Winds of Winter recently, and it has made me so impatient for the other books to be released. I didn't start to read the books until we were 5, maybe 6 seasons deep, but now that I've finished them all, I understand why you poor book readers are so impatient hahaha
Almost for me. The book series is almost certainly going to be left unfinished, unless Martin somehow lives to 110. It's such a great series and the author just refuses to write any more of the stuff we want. Side stories and gap fillers are great but 9 years and still no release date just kills the series for me. Even if The Winds of Winter comes out tomorrow I'm still not picking it up until we have a book 7 release date with a confirmation that book 7 is the last in the series, because Martin could easily say he needs another 3 books to wrap everything up.
Your videos are the only way I can get excited about GoT now :(
CreepsMcPasta same
What a place to see your face
WOWOWOWOWOW here I am minding my business watching TH-cam and the MAN himself is in the comments AND he likes GOT like me??!!?!?! *faints*
@@calebgarage4254 lmao he's people just like us. Shits from his ass and sneezes from his nose
Oh hey dude. I just finished ADWD and here you are! Hoping you are well:)
I'm suprised you didn't mention how Theon directly quotes the Pink Letter in Theon I of Winds ("He wants his bride back. He wants his Reek.") So that lends credence to it being faked by him and Stannis.
Or Mance, who spent some time with him too.
Great catch, that definitely adds a lot of legitimacy to the Stannis theory (which I personally subscribe to).
It doesn't fit Stannis's personality. Maybe it was Davos? Is Davos with Stannis now? I don't remember.
@@lw3106 Nah, he's in Skagos.
@@lw3106 Davos was sent by Manderly from White Harbor to Skagos to find Rickon. And it wouldn't fit his personality either to fabricate letters such way, leaving aside the fact he can barely read
GRRM loves history. One of the most famous battles in history is the "battle of the ice" where Nevsky defeated the Crusaders by tempting them onto the ice with heavy cavalry. They fell through, were destroyed, and Slavic Europe remained Orthodox. Stannis is the best general in Westeros and the legitimate King, while Ramsey Bolton is an impetuous vicious idiot. We will be seeing more of Stannis. It is a shame that the tv show was run by idiots, as a quick look at Eisensteins movie would show the potential of the battle of the ice.
One nitpick I just can't let go - EASTERN Slavic Europe, which is by far not all of it, I can tell you that as a Pole. And there are Czechs, Slovaks, Sorbs (not Serbs!), Croatians, and Slovenians too on the non-orthodox side. Eastern Slavs aren't any more (or less) Slavic than Western or Southern ones.
Edit: rearranged the listing, as it might have looked slightly misleading
@@8Hshan sorbs are catholic??
@@milosav7314 Catholic or protestant, I don't know exactly
@@8Hshan they are orthodox
@@Richardnixonloyalist Not Serbs. Sorbs. Totally different Slavs, living mostly in eastern Germany.
Edit: I've realised that the way I wrote that before might have been misleading and indeed suggest I meant Serbs, so now it's corrected.
I think it’s most likely that Mance wrote it at Melisandre’s behest. She knows Stannis is in trouble and that Jon may be the only one who can save him, and she knows that Jon’s destiny is to leave the watch. It still doesn’t explain why Theon is mentioned in the letter though. Although Mance could’ve added the part about Val and the child on his own.
Good idea. Theon might simply be in it to lend believability to the author of the note. Might seem weird if he were never mentioned. He's shown to be pretty attached to reek
It would really fit the tone of the story if Stannis wins at Winterfell. It's just too upbeat for The Starks to take it. Far better for a grey character, like Stannis, to have that triumph.
He's not grey. He's a flawed man sincerely trying to save the world. He is of the light. Just look at his sword.
Frankly it would be amazing if Stannis didn't take Winterfell.
He has to die fighting The Others, not the pipsqueak Ramsay.
Lane Stapp he is for sure. He is extremely utilitarian (slightly less so in the books) which makes him cold and makes him ruthless. I agree he is pretty much a good guy but not a nice guy
@@lanestapp2 Looked at his sword. It's a fake - Even blind Maester Aemon could see that!
@@noneofyourbeeswax01 He knows its fake too. He uses it as a rallying cause. To help gain people to fight against ice zombies.
I’ve missed got videos so much😭😭
Afterthe disastrous of season 8
Do you mean ASOIAF videos? GoT videos.... meh^2.
“Its been 9 years since the last book was written” its been 13 years
Congrats, you did the math on how old this video is
"Stannis has the personality of a lobster" - Loras
lobster has left the chat
- Loras "Lobster" Tyrell
Loras "Got Hot Oil Poured On Him" Tyrell
But he fights like a Lion
Ironic considering that Loras is one of the most bland and forgettable characters in the series whereas Stannis is a legend.
George R R Martin is in a great position where he literally can’t make the ending to the books any worse than the tv series. So even if it sucks people will still view it positively.
Wellll... I think GRRM doesn't intend on finishing the series, because as long as everyone can imagine their own ideal ending, everyone's gonna like the story (with that cool imagined ending, or at least none, which is better than a bad one I guess). So far he's perceived as this genius storyteller, but when the ending is set in stone, some people are bound to be disappointed and his reputation will suffer for it.
...either that or he's having a much harder time tying things up than just letting his imagination flow, because if I remember correctly, he once described his writing process as setting the stage, imagining character's personalities and relationships, and letting everything flow naturally from there. I think it's much harder ending a story that way, than just continuing it. Also, writing this MUST get harder and harder the further the story progresses, because when writing book 1, he could change anything on a whim, leaving him total freedom, with book 2, there was only one book he had to be consistent with. Now it's 5 books he can't change and probably has to check regularly to make sure things fit together. He probably keeps thinking up stuff, checking the previous books for contradictions, and going "Aw hell, that doesn't work!"
So yeah, as I see it, the story is over. I'm not one of those claiming not to care anymore, I do, otherwise I probably wouldn't have written this comment on a 4 year old video, but I've stopped actively hoping and wishing for an ending. If we're lucky we'll get Winds of Winter at least... Wouldn't hold my breath
Remember when Game of Thrones used to be good?
The North remembers.
This is not GoT btw
still is .. as game of thrones is the 1ST book in " a song of fire and ice " still i felt cheated in season 8... may the old gods give us a great final few books... wont hold my breath ...yet .... IF the books are great as the ones before were... greeatest come back ever... and will be for us book readers only.. rest will just be thoses who dont truly know.... soryy 4 ramble its is know me with a little whiskey and 7 up and a bowl or two to be honest... i might talk a little shit...
When people read about The Long Night centuries later, they'll read about Jon Snow and Daenerys Targaryen's heroic efforts in the war. But everyone will forget about Stannis Baratheon, the man who got people to look Beyond-The-Wall and led the army of the living. Most of Westeros will forget his actions... but The North Remembers...
I 'member
The voice Varys heard in the flame, please.
Bloodraven
@@lasttoparty7570 ahhhhhh plausible!!!
Yes!!
Especially if gods don't exist in this universe, what did he see?
@@weswesyall2827 I doubt it. Bloodraven has never been shown to have direct influence in Essos.
If Stannis has Manderly on his side and the element of surprise like you say, he'd have as good a chance as possible already to beat the Boltons and wouldn't need a ragtag bunch of wildlings to help him. With 100% surprise and an a hostile army already inside their walls, there wouldn't be much hope for the Boltons in Winterfell.
Also the best commander in all the seven kingdoms.
Would Roose Bolton fully trust Manderly's claim that Stannis is dead though?
Don’t forget how nearly all the northern lords are currently gunning for the Boltons right now as well. They are pretty screwed, all things considered
@@willson1908 Probably not. But he also wouldn't deny it openly. It's possible that the letter was either sent before Roose could talk to Ramsay in private, or Ramsay was too livid about loosing Jayne and Reek to care.
Hopefully the Bolton's all go extinct too. They're the odd ones out in the north
I like the idea of stannis using the lake. Also it will come back later with the dead rising and making the night king army larger
there is no night king
@@nurdersvw8070 dude.
@@luvmusl2163 he's right, the Night king was made up for the show
@@eyeballpaul700 dooooood!
where about its the books show wise before the battle of winterfell ? and there is whitewalkers right ? when will this man finish the book ffs
I was under the impression that Bowen et al. had been plotting Jon's assassination for a while, and had been waiting for a chance. Throughout the books Bowen and others are clearly upset about Jon's actions and the way Jon refuses to explain his actions. The diversion with Wun Wun fighting Ser Patrek, combined with Jon not having his wolf, provided the opportunity. It seems unlikely several of the NW would spontaneously execute Jon in such immediate response to his plan to ride south, especially in the middle of a deadly fight involving a giant.
How would they know about reek, about abel and the spearwives?
@@zafelrede4884 the assassination probably didnt have anything to do with the pink letter. Bowen simply saw an opportunity and took it
Yeah having just completed a reread it looks like Bowen was plotting this for a while. The Pink Letter arriving and the chaos in the yard provided ample opportunity to carry out an assassination. Not saying Bowen and the rest orchestrated that, it was simply opportunistic.
YES! I'm surprised this wasn't mentioned in the video. There's clearly a motive: Getting Jon to break his oath so they can put an end to him and have an excuse
Ah Stannis... I would have followed you anywhere... my brother.. my captain... my king...
Sounds like Boromir in the end of FotR :D
Our one true king will defeat the Boltons! Can't wait for Roose vs Stannis
@@olgierdvoneverec3554 or Stannis vs Ramsay
The Battle of Ice results is all I’m really interested in anymore. I’m a Stannis fan and I want to see the Bolton’s go down. God I hope the books don’t end like the show.... it’s all so disappointing.
The show will be the only ending you will get. GRRM will never finish this series. Guy is a dick. Fuck him.
@@jasonfuentz7681 Jon being a Targaryen is p cool and I’m not opposed to him getting himself some Dany. I remember GRRM talking about how disappointed he was that Tolkien brought Gandalf back so I’m very afraid of if his death is permanent for the books. Maybe he is at a point where he understands why he didn’t let Gandalf die, or maybe not.
@@jasonfuentz7681 what’s wrong with you? You ever written a 1000 + page book? I can’t even write more than 30
@fabRic_jAck The first three books were nowhere near as complex as A Dance With Dragons was, or as complex as The Winds of Winter will be.
I think Stannis will take Winterfell and make Sansa Stark the Warden of the North. He’d win the support of most Northern House along the Vale. He’ll be preparing for the March south on Kingslanding but The Others will attack and he’ll likely go out in a blaze of glory against them defending his Kingdom from evil.
I used to live and breathe through those videos, shame how GoT got most of those carefully thought theories into nothing more than a theoretical script that's way better than what the show ended up being. Nevertheless, keep up the good work, i missed those videos a lot!
This is books, mate.
@@redblueproductions9739 i am aware mate. I simply said that everybody was diving deep into those theories and expected to see them in the show as well, and the show proved to be a big pile of shit.
@@Premoguys I binged almost every alt shift x video before season 8 came out. That definitely made it worse in the end. Still the biggest disappointment I've ever had with a tv series. Annoys me to even think about it
@@Premoguys Yeah of course theories that are based purely on the books wont be in the show but one can still hope right? Most of these theories were however books only stuf and inportant characters that were involved were rarely in the show anyway. Not to mention that around season 5 where most of these misteries poped up D&D heavilly altered the story and cut out alot of stuf. Then people claimed show was bad because they ran out of source material but they didnt. They simply cut it all out.
They did leave some big theories and reveals in like R+L=J or Mad Dany but they were so poorly established, shown and used it honestly would have been better if they left them out completely
@@Premoguys the tv show is a completely hollow and surface level bastardization version of the books (Last 4 seasons). So of course they didnt have all of this interesting stuff that the books have.
"And Jon doesn't know what a Reek is" :D
I chuckled at it too, but it makes sense to put it this way for 2 reasons:
1) The letter calls him MY Reek, implying he is A Reek
2) In the books, Theon is indeed A Reek, because he's not the first. Ramsay had at least one other tortured pet slave he named Reek before
Funniest line in the show by wyman manderly: “thankfully he’s been saved from the fate of growing up to be a Frey”
Pink Letter: Early Patron Release
You: _Accidentally releases it normally_
Non-Patrons: *It's Free Real Estate*
Great video though, I'm a Stannis Hypebeast.
Arms... heavy
You sure it was “accidentally”?
A man of culture as well I see
Vomit on his sweater already....
Mom's spaghetti
I "kinda forgot" about Game of Thrones S8 until Alt Shift X uploaded this video
All men will kneel before the one true king of Westeros Stannis Baratheon.
Dany, Boltons and the Reach
You will bend the kneeeeee!
Bow ya shits
@@olgierdvoneverec3554 or I will destroy them
"Manipulating Jon isn't something Stannis would do." This reminds me of Stannis's opening scene in book 2 where the Maester is being humiliated by the red priestess and Stannis joins in by making him wear patches jesters crown. The Maester thinks 'You were never one to mock, not before you met her' I'm paraphrasing of course. But it does go to show you that Stannis HAS changed in his ways ever since becoming Azor Ahai (supposedly).
Melisandre is the one who puts the jester crown on Cressen and Selyse is the one making the louder jokes. Stannis allows it at first, but he's very uncomfortable and then stops the humilliation.
imo there Stannis is trying hard to fuck up Melisandre's prophecy that Cressen will "betray" him by poisoning her, possibly because he trusts Cressen (or maybe even loves him and doesn't want him to die) but surely also because he's a skeptic and doesn't believe that Melisandre has actual powers, so if he manages to make what she predicted not happen he's proving that her visions are not real or at least not absolute, that's why he tries to have him leave the feast and why he doesn't have him called for it in the first place, mockery certainly isn't a goal or trait of his in the rest of the books
First 20 seconds:
Alt: The show is Crap
Me: You have my attention
Stannis VS Boltons is the thing im looking forward to the most!
Stannis with Jon snow vs Boltons much better
I forgot how good these books were. It's a shame they'll never be finished.
This.
I, like many others, desire them deeply.
Though I think GRRM knows this and his ultimate joy steal is not going to be killing characters he made us fall in love with. He'll be killing the whole series.
@@Grewyn7 this is the only way he can pleasure himself. Sex won't do it anymore
Can you see the future? If not, don't assume anything.
@@lordodysseus maybe he knows the 3 eyed raven
I have acepted this. And at this point I am just waiting GRR to croke so Brandon Sanderson can finish the books
I really hope that Stannis is still alive. He is one of the greatest characters in the books.
He's so smart, the show did him dirty. He's regarded as the best commanders but Dumb&Dumber forgot and turned him into a dus
George is the reason the show's version of him is so popular, they stuck to the source material and the actor pulled it off in full. But when they had no more material for him, they got rid of him. The writers didn't know how to juggle the many characters in ASOIAF like George does.
He is. I believe GRRM confirmed it
He may not be the true hero of the story, but if nothing else, dude deserves to die fighting a White Walker or something; give him the soldier's death Robert never got.
I definitely think it was Mance. Even though we don't know what his motives were, he has enough secrets that there are plenty of possible reasons to motivate him to do this, although we can't know what's going on with him until the next book. Aside from the convincing analysis of the letter's wording matching up with Mance's vocabulary, he's also pretty much the only person who would know about all of the details mentioned in the letter. The next-closest possibility is that he was captured and forced to give up his secrets to Ramsay, but Mance doesn't seem the type to crumble under torture, and the whole point of the letter is that it seems to be written by Ramsay but upon closer examination probably wasn't, which makes Ramsay pretty much the least likely candidate.
Sometimes I watch your videos before bed kind of like an ASMR video because they're pretty smooth and you don't talk overly fast.
I feel they did Stannis so dirty on the show. I feel like they reversed the deaths of Stannis and Selyse, with the Red Witch still at the wall with Jon, Selyse, and Shireen, I feel Mel burns Shireen to bring back Jon. Jon comes back and beheads Selyse while Stannis finds out and hangs himself. idk why i think this either.
Also I think That Theon and Asha are Stannis' prisoners outside of Winterfell, so If Ramseys had killed Stannis he'd have his Reek, so that is another inconstancy.
they did everyone so dirty on the show.
Good god this is a dark view.
Ramsay could have written the letter but lied about having defeated Stannis, or, as suggested in this video, have been tricked into thinking Stannis is defeated when he isn’t, in which case he wouldn’t know that Stannis has Theon/Reek.
It's an interesting idea, but Stannis doesn't really seem like the type to hanging himself over the death of his wife or daughter. In fact, I don't really recall him ever giving a shit about them in the books.
i can’t see stannis hanging himself. imo he’ll be executed after refusing to “bend the knee” in the face of defeat; all the symbolism about knees that don’t bend can’t amount to nothing
I want Alt Shift X to do a theory video on when GRRM will finish his book.
That would scare me more than the Forsaken chapter, or Cotter Pike's letter from Hardhome.
Hardly worth posting a video when all it consists of is the one word answer: "Never".
the book wont come out until he dies probably
@@noneofyourbeeswax01 this
Last time when I was so early, Game of Thrones was still a great series.
:( I cry every time
Those really were the days, weren't they?
It was about s6 where the downhill turn began.
S6 was still acceptable but 7 and 8 were laughable. Guess that's why we have headcanon :(
@@Grewyn7 I was gonna say 5 but 6 is watchable. xp
@@Grewyn7 I completely agree. Season 6 was the last season that I truly enjoyed. Cersei blew up the sept!! It was so fucking epic. But I could tell that something was fucked up when 7 came out. Something changed. Big time.
Just finished ADWD, started on the first book last summer. I had no clue Abel was actually Mance, I always miss such details, but of course it's him. Loved the ending with Kevan and Varys making a cool comeback. My favorite storylines in this book were probably Quentyn, Griff and Selmy
Man, I had the exact same feeling just now watching this video. I remember feeling sketched out by abel and the women and really wondering what was up with them and also at the same time wondering what had happened to Mance and the women. I was even wondering if one of the women was that captured wildling woman that saved Bran back in Winterfell.
There is this one very specific line when Theon & the gang are escaping winterfell and they have to do some climbing and one of the women remarks that she has climbed the wall when she was but a young girl.
I legit feel like a retard for not connecting the dots until this video, I also seem to miss soooo much of these things lol
Dude same here, can't believe I missed that!
I figured it out almost immediatly. Once Theon mentioned a singer I went back to see what his name was, then I immediatly knew it was Mance. Although me figuring it out the first time the singer showed up probably has something to do with me being spoiled about Mance being in Winterfell with his spear wifes before I reached ADWD
I realized it with the mention of his companions being women and his singing and talk with Theon confirmed it.
Yey, an ASX video. Appreciate you're still making videos about ASOIAF mate.
one of the most interesting discussions from the winds of winter. kinda glad it wasnt answered or mentioned in the show. us book readers still have big topics to look forward to
Tbf, in season 6 Ramsay did write a similar letter to Jon.
@@mjob1sniper851 yeah i remember that. they were kinda trying to mimick the pink letter
"I've been looking forward to this." - Dooku
My hatred for D&D and anticipation for the next book has doubled since the last time we met Count.
@@ultravires2335 "Good twice the pride double the fall"
Stannis is the One true King.
KNEEL BEFORE YOUR KING!!!!!
STANNIS THE MANNIS
Sbiz97 This 😁👍
Stannis! Stannis! Stannis!
fuck stannis in the show.
Maybe Stannins on the books isnt a bitch ass child killer
“It’s been 9 years since the last book was released”
13, going on 14 years now. :(
I assume the Nights Watch wrote it, likely Alliser Thorne, as a “see this guy isnt fit to be lord commander.” ploy/trap. the language is too on the nose and obvious for it to be Mance, so i think whoever wrote it is trying to pin it on the wildlings, (which also benefits the nights watch)
"& Jon doesn't know what a reek is." Tickled me
this is the kind of video i've been craving for a while, and now my hype for winds is reinvigorated. also, i think the different handwriting is easily explained because ramsay had reek write the first two letters (brown, bloody text + erratic spiky handwriting seems in keeping with a tortured, desperate man writing a letter in his own blood), where this one was ramsay himself.
Dude, I'm kinda trying to get over the season 8 mess and this video is giving me all the ptsds 😆
Agreed!!
I recommend listening to Talking Thrones' S8 re-writes so far, they're brilliant!!!
@@RedRoseSeptember22 check out "Macabre storytelling"
He has rewrites of characters
I've seen a lot of rewrite videos, but he is my favorite so far.
Let me know what you think
Dude, book readers been dealing with that shit ever since season 5. It just continued to get worse with every season. The Dorne storyline still haunts my dreams. Plus, the way Tyrion was written from Season 6-8 just makes me cringe thinking about it.
To be fair, that's better than STDs
The change in letters could come down to Ramsey's loss of composure of losing Jeyne who was pretending to be Arya. Without her a "Stark" to pacify the North he probably feels the walls closing on him with Stannis lurking and didn't meet with anyone of the other Northerners to get them to sign the letter for fear of them betraying him if he meets them alone. So he rushed this letter unlike the others.
This feels the most likely answer, to me. He's absolutely pissed, not just because he lost something he valued, but also because as a recently legitimized bastard, he is threatened politically by his father and any new sons he may have by his Frey wife. Until he has a properly consummated marriage and an heir, Roose can always just "take-backseys" his naming of Ramsey as his heir. He still views him as a bastard, and cares little for him, beyond his use as an attack dog. Ramsey is desperately insecure about his bastardy, and that his father doesn't view him as his true heir, so he NEEDS a trueborn wife and heir to solidify his position. You can see his insecurity bleed through when, in the Pink Letter, he emphasizes his title in the signature, as "Trueborn Lord of Winterfell".
When I heard the pre released chapters for Theon, I thought he had been quoted by Stannis in the letter. He tells Stannis Ramsay wants his bride back, and his Reek back. Stannis tells Justin Massey that he may hear Stannis is dead. And Stannis has always wanted Jon to go to Winterfell.
Aaaaand you just got to that part in the video. So yeah. That's my guess.
Next Game of Thrones book? Like GRR is going to finish writing it one day?
I admire your optimism.
i think hell do one more book, and maybe in 30 years finish the last, or let it be finished by other authers he trust. it hope. but honestly i dont think well see an "ending" written by george
@@seelfire4725 I think he's just not hungry anymore. When creators are starting out, they produce huge volumes of work just to keep a roof over their heads. But when you've got licensing money coming out of your ears, there's a lot less push to get the job done.
In any event, I hope I'm wrong. I really do want the last two books to come out.
@@johnschwartz1641
I heard somewhere a theory that he'd really finished them both already and now He only waits for hype from tv show to die out and then release them one after another. Now when even prequel show was canceled and think its more plausible .
@@ReptilianLepton With consultation by Brandon Sanderson, purely for laughs.
Quasisaur what remaining hype the show had died the second they named bran king. He could have released it by now it’s been almost a year
Please keep the Asoiaf content coming guys, it’s absolutely quality stuff. Keep up the good work
Such a pleasure watching your content, I can almost physically feel all the hard work that went into this one, keep it up!
I would listen to you read the ingredients off a cereal box your voice is so hypnotic. Seriously, you could have one hell of a career doing audio books! I feel like purring listening to you.
I read the 5 books in 2010-2011. I then started watching the show. In 2019 I got the 5 books again but on audible. I listened to the first 4 and maybe half of the 5. I was getting so excited for the final tv season. By the end of the show I had to put down the audiobook. Still half way thru the 5th and I haven’t been able to finish it. The alt shift x vids were a nice discovery. Thanks for making all these.
Harry Llyod does an excellent job narrating the hedge knight books just btw
There really isn't any other work of ficiton that has this many plotlines and this many mysterious secrets and shit going on literally non-stop
And that’s the reason this particular work of fiction isn’t going to be finished
Stannis the Mannis. One God, One King, One Realm
Maybe not one God but definitely one realm under on king.
My boy Stannis better fucking win. They did him so dirty in the show he deserves to win the iron throne. Even if Dany eventually kills him, he deserves to win because he cares.
I think Mance has a good motivation for writing it. All the threats in the letter are supposed to motivate Jon to take action - which is take wildlings and nights watch to come to Winterfell. The question is why? That depends on what happened at Winterfell at the writing of the letter. Stannis could have the castle under siege or marching towards it - so reinforcements would be the goal. He could also have coordinated the ploy with Stannis or Manderly. Mance also wants to get his people south and having Jon betray his vows would be a cherry on top for Mance.
The reinforcements would take time to get to Winterfell from the wall, especially with the blizzards around Winterfell. So I don't think it adds up
I hope that Stannis Baratheon becomes the king of the seven Kingdoms
Every sane person should hope for that.
Every sane person should hope for that.
It’s got to be better than the last series
Fenniks I think we just need to hope to get the books! 🤞
I want Jon to be the King, pissed me off so bad when he denied his responsibility in the show...Bran as king was soo...eh.
It would be coof if you made another video after "The Winds of WInter"s release, about all the Theories and how they actually turned out.
There's still another book afyer Winds so there will undoubtedly be brand new theories about a dream of spring
I think at the time of writing even GRRM didn't know who wrote it, which is why he placed things in there to make it hard to guess.
However, I think he may go with the Mance Rayder wrote it answer in Winds if we get it sometime in the next decade.
No he 100% knew who wrote it. 200 pages were cut from the end of Dance and moved to the opening of Winds including both the Battle of Ice with Stannis and the Boltons and the Battle of Fire at Mereen. The answer is definitely in there somewhere and was written well before Dance was published.
Maybe GRRM might change his mind and change who wrote it (he's changed up the plot before from getting bored of it), but he definitely has someone in mind who wrote it.
Please, Alt Shift X, don't ever leave us. I can't live without your videos - least not since GoT ended.
"We'll only know the truth when the next book comes out" Bold of you to assume that's ever going to happen.
THANK YOU !!! I've been waiting since 2011 for this !!!
Such a long wait...
Finally got around to watching Preston Jacobs first video I see. Well done
Lol amen
@@wisdommanari6701
This is Cantuse's theory.
Rewatch the start of the video.
It's probably Mance.
No one else would use the Crow terminology. Stannis can't know about Reek, Melisandre warned Jon, and this is not Ramsay's style.
He asked for his wife and children because that's what Ramsay would have asked according to his logic. Ramsay is the enemy of both Jon and the Freefolks. He would demand the bride of the former king and his heir, to avoid future problems.
He of course knows that Jon won't bring him the girl, so his wife is safe. He also knows that if the Battle for Winterfell goes bad, his wife is dead.
Mance would have begun his infiltration under the impression that stannis would be available to contact outside winterfell. That's because the storm didn't pick up until stannis approached, hence he camped in the small town, making his arrival unclear with no point of contact.
That would have been going on for a few days while mance was stuck in winterfell. Given that he couldn't just ask Jon for a rescue (or Jon would have gone himself), he needed a false flag to provoke a rescue group, leaning heavily on wildlings.
"So Jon is shook"
Sums him up
mostly unrelated, but i thought the phrase “false fire” in regards to Stannis is neat just considering his false azor ahai status
Please stop using the show's pictures. I'm getting flashbacks from Season 8 nightmare.
InvisibleMan95 I like the use of show actors blended with book portraits. Help shows what could’ve been :(
Fire and Blood is such a great book. I've read it eight times already and I can't get enough of it. I really want vol. 2, so we can learn more about my favorite sot King Aegon IV. Plus, we will get Baelor The Blessed's crazy ass and the Blackfyre Rebellion. I of course want the main series finished first, but I really hope we will get vol. 2 at some point.
O god this is so much better than last season of GoT. This is so much in the line of sociological story telling than one was done on the show. Man I am big fan of your work some years now. Thank you for all the work and analysis. To me your videos is even more enjoyable than the show it self. Keep up the good work.
Great video but I think you’re overlooking one major thing. Ser Pounce has been awfully quiet up to this point. Don’t rule him out as a candidate for writing this letter…
You’ve made videos on how Jon’s story will end and how Arya’s story will end, it would be awesome if you made one on Sansa as well. And even Bran.
AltShiftX Uploads: "Go on do your duty"
2:41 Ya, why would he die off screen... # Looks to D&D menacingly #
Whenever I’m having trouble going to sleep I watch your videos. Your voice is so soothing, and hypnotic which makes me sleepy. Thank you 🙏
Only Ser Pounce could have written such a cunning and dastardly letter!
This is true.
Ser Pounce is the ultimate master planner.
You know there hasn't been much ASOIAF news in a while when you mistake Stannis in the thumbnail with Mr. Sunday Movies
Small error in your script at 17:09. It's actually "We'll only know *_if_* the next book comes out".
You aren‘t a real character in Asoiaf until you have another secret identity or are involved in at least two secret plots 🤣
Or if you haven't lost who you are.
Sometimes I like to come back to these videos to cleanse my pallet of season 5-8. The only good thing about season 8 is that it makes season 5 and 6 look good.
In A Dance with Dragons, different forms of communication are revealed and discussed. We learn about the obsidian candles and how Marwyn the Mage has been using one to communicate with the Faceless Men. We learn about the Weirwood trees and the concept of the Weirwood network in Bran's training. And dreams as a form of communication and possible direction or even misdirection, although this is not the first time dreams as a form of communication has come up.
When the Northerners rescue Theon and Jeyne Pool, Theon is brought to Stannis in that tower with the fire beacon. Apparently he's been spending almost all his time just staring into it. Back at Castle Black, we know that Melissandre has been spending a lot of time looking into the flame. I think they're communicating with one another. Deception is typically not a tactic that Stannis would employ, it's not very in keeping with his character. Melissandre on the other hand, employs deception constantly. The very nature of her glimor is deception. So I think Melissandre advised Stannis to draw Jon Snow out from Castle Black. The best way to do this is to make him believe he's all that's left to help his sister. Thus the letter talks about Stannis being defeated, Mance is captured, the Boltons have secured their position and there's no one left but Jon that might be able to stop them.
It's perfect for Stannis. Jon will leave Castle Black, learn that Stannis army still stands and he's still alive, only it will be too late for Jon to turn back. He'll have to aide Stannis in the Battle for Winterfell and with Jon's knowledge of the castle, Stannis will be victorious. Also, perhaps more so than helping Stannis, Melissandre might have come up with this plan as a way of getting Jon away from Castle Black to try to save his life.
This is the theory that I have settled on, but Mance writing it is also plausible.
Anyone that takes the Pink Letter at face value is a retard. The first time I read the Pink Letter, I got so mad at the show runners for what they did.