Very far from final boss. He has a lot of weak points and invalid unsound arguments in many of his videos. So not very speech skill and rhetoric needed to defeat him. Mini-boss, maybe, for some.
It's seems like work environment awareness that Tim had missing. People gossip, and if you deliver them something to gossip around that sound negative without proper context, then they'll do just that. It cost me job once, because I didn't yet know that in work environment anyone can be listening to your conversation from outside, picking some things up and escalating this to manager.
@@Divus90 In my current workplace, the workers' break room is next to the managerial staff rooms, and some of my fellow guys are talking really loud how they don't aggree the decisions. Then they are baffled when they don't get to continue working there when the term is up. I want to run outside when they start talking shit so I won't get flak from that, managers thinking that me listening there on coffee break means that I think likewise. Mostly those guys have simple problems they bitch about in the break room, they could just walk a few meters and say how things are for them, and that I bet would help a lot everyone.
I agree, the humility to admit the games he worked on had bugs, while games without him didn’t was surprising to me. It’s one thing to admit flaws in your character, but to admit that the work you do (and presumably are very proud of) is also flawed is very open and honest
He didn't say he wasn't in the right. He said he was telling stories where he came off as the villain. He also said that was specifically because he wasn't given the context. Implying that if he did give the context he probably would not come off as the villain. I'm really starting to wonder if people recently are starting to have trouble understanding / seeing right from wrong. Some of the "heros" in recent shows and moves have been truly horrible people doing morally wrong things.
@@doodlemaster5295 This might sound strange, but I'm pretty sure its because he cares about quality - in this case software quality. You can't have good quality software and learn to improve your own ability to write good quality software unless you are willing to see and admit to your own faults. I've been the top developer at every place I've worked for many years now - and I'm always my own worst critic. I have a high quality standard that I apply to my own code, higher than I apply to anyone else. I suspect Tim is similar.
"Did you ever hear the Tragedy of Darth Cain the Wise? I thought not. It's not a story the HR would tell you. It’s an Interplay legend. Darth Cain was a Dark Lord of the C, so powerful and so wise he could use the code to influence the compilers to create GAMES… He had such a knowledge of the in-side that he could even keep the characters he cared about from... dying. The dark side of the C is a pathway to many codebases some consider to be... untested. He became so powerful… the only thing he was afraid of was losing his power, which eventually, of course, he did." - Revenge of the Plebs
Everyone always best remembers the stories in which they were the good guy. I know some stories in which I was the bad guy, but the way I tell it is for comedic effect. The ones where I was really the bad guy with no upside, I have tucked away in the dark recesses of my brain.
I hope you don't tuck away those bad stories too far; the silver lining is that you can either choose to learn from them and be better, or not. I struggle with that.
@@0ia It's not something I am doing consciously. Or anyone I guess. These can be potentially traumatic experiences and a lot of people even struggle to get out of that depressing "negative thought spiral". In my opinion, one should learn the behaviour, then drop the story. The main point is recognising you were the bad guy at all - some people don't even get that far.
@@jesperburns That's great. "Drop the story" is something I've been experimenting with. Because the story has too much weight beyond the objective parts. And recognizing being the bad guy is respecting truths, and respecting truths makes it way easier to work with reality. I wish trauma weren't a thing! But it seems it's a part of being human. Have a nice day.
@@jesperburns I have that issue. I'm only 25 but there's sooo many stories where I've been the bad guy, and I cannot stop thinking about them. Every single day I go through every mistake I've ever made and beat myself up for it. It's a constant drag on my emotions. I'll be having a good day, and I'll have the thought of the time me and my ex were fighting and I got mad and slammed my fist on a table and scared her, and it'll ruin my day. Idk how to get out of that trap. I've done a good job treating people better than I used to, but it doesn't change the times I've been a real piece of shit.
@@Hoppelite Not sure how to word this correctly but you are actually not the main protagonist of the game world. That horrible thing you accidentally said last week? Nobody remembers that but you. They have a dozen other things going on themselves. They don't pick up on every nuance, because they forgot the bread. Only you are constantly reliving those stories, because everyone else is doing the same, but for their own.
Fallout 1 needs a mod to have the Followers of the Apocalyse win because their good ending need a character that was cut out, so all they can look forward is being destroyed by the Master. This is the most villainous thing Tim did.
the first one is particularly interesting because generally people don't acknowledge some of their own flaws to themselves, so they usually don't even know when they're the villain in someone elses story. but since you had to be told about these secret meetings are why they were having them it reveals something about you which you may not acknowledge fully - which is brave imo, nice one.
The contest one I've had happen to me before too ahah crazy man. People come up with a random half assed idea, and when you ask more details or how you are supposed to bring that to fruition in reality they go all defensive or call you 'argumentative' or other bs like that because they can't be bothered actually using their brains for 5 minutes trying to actually piece it all together and expect you to do it for them.
Yeah, exactly, I don't think Tim was a "villain" in that one because he brought up a very good and practical concern for that idea. Sometimes people don't communicate clearly, or they don't think things through, and they lash out at people who help them realize that.
It's really interesting how the fact I'm so used to Tim sharing so candidly and value his professional opinions on game development that, in the second story, I found myself giving him the benefit of the doubt and thinking that there must be some validating reason why he said those things. But its totally imaginable that if I was just working under him, or barely knew him, or wasn't used to him taking time to explain his reasoning I would just assume he's a jerk and move on. Which would then probably color all future interactions with him.
Why? These werent really much of anything. Story 1 - he was excluded from meetings bc he hadnt yet developed the skills to coddle other softer designers (a real skill, unfortunately). Okay. Story 2 - he was a jerk to a coworker he didnt respect. Funny but okay? Who cares. Everyone will dislike somebody for some reason and this is just how it goes. Everyone can be a jerk sometimes - even when ppl think they arent being too passive & reserved creates just as many (or more) problems as being too blunt and direct. Everyone loses here. Story 3 - I just watched it and dint even remember it bc it was so meh. Tim cant find better examples where he was a Villain bc he wasnt really a Villain. He was just a human, and often the smarter one or more confident one in a room of sensitive ppl. Sometimes the dumber one in a room of his peers - everyone is like this. Good ideas and bad. That's why you have collaborative discussions. To pick the best idea.
Not to argue that you were the hero in the last story, but when you said the premise of the contest, the first thing I thought was "What do they mean by best written?" Because that could mean: the most applicable backstory to Arcanum's world/story; the most applicable backstory to Arcanum's whimsical theme; etc. It's quite a subjective notion. So I definitely think you brought up a good question that was inevitably going to be asked in that process.
Well Tim, I won't say that third story wasn't necessarily you being a bad person, or mean. You brought up a good point and unfortunately that good point derailed not only the discussion, but the contest. I know people want to pin the blame on you for that one, and I know why they want to do it. No one wants to accept fault for such a great in concept idea, falling apart because it'd be really hard to execute. Still hearing it the way you told it makes it sound like, in hind sight, a really funny incident.
Thought similarly. The points brought up as-told seem very valid and like the kinds of things that need to be figured out BEFORE going public with an idea. Idk how the conversation went, given the "argumentative" claims, but the basis of the impetus made sense.
A potentially better outcome than if they discussed this point after promoting the contest. Could you imagine putting out a statement that says; "We regret to inform you that the contest is cancelled due to the staff being unable to decide on how to judge your entries. The entries are now null and void but as per the contest rules, are still property of Sierra Games."
Tim was completely in the right in the third story. Logistics matter. All the points he mentions raising are things that they absolutely would have had to figure out had they moved forward. He was simply being realistic, which inexplicably bothers some people.
@@kylenewberry9792 The point of the video is that it's easy to agree when you weren't there. It's easy to agree with Tim when he's presenting what happened and you already feel like he's a reasonable and humble person. The reality is that there may have been good counter-arguments to his position and it's easy when people care about a project to get carried away with emotional responses.
Fun thing for me: again, like in the "You should have fired him...", I don't see any bad behaviour in this. For me it's just honesty most people try to hide behind (false) politeness.
We are the heroes of our own stories, and there's no clear cut between good and evil. Even in cases where there's a consensus on what constitutes a virtuous action, there will always be someone who thinks otherwise. This is also true for vicious or frowned upon behaviors. That's the nature of human perception. It is shaped by the infinitely diverse contexts of one's life experiences. What I take as the most important attribute in life isn't the capacity for good - for, as I said before, that's completely subjective and biased. The most important skill is empathy, the ability to put yourself more or less on someone else's shoes and abstract how your actions might have impacted them, even if only in retrospective. If one at least tries to understand his or her impact on someone's life, that's enough for me. And you clearly can do that. Cheers!
The contest story doesn't even sound that bad. Having the selection criteria discussion was going to happen anyway, so it makes sense to be preemptively done to see if the contest even makes sense. There is likely a lot that happened during the meeting that we are not aware of still.
I agree, and I think the contest sounds like an objectively terrible idea for all the questions he had about it. I think if he went along with it without questioning it, at the very least the Sierra lawyers would have had major problems with it and stopped it. It sounds like a really fun idea on the surface, but there are a lot of reasons it's never really done.
the contest thing is a classic autism tale to me, i always get stuck in the nitty gritty and make people upset by asking "well how are we gonna do this" 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Goddamnit Tim! xD Yet that only makes me more invested on your stories, you are just human, as we all! Aknowledging those stories in the video in my opinion makes you even more relevant for us to listen to you. We know what we are getting, and you are such a genuine and uplifting person! Cheers from Brazil!
Everyone thinks they know who they are until they are the one making the decisions and writing the checks, and being the one whose head is on the block for the work that their employees are doing.
I remember reading one of the comments that you mentioned and I really wanted to say something but I'm glad I didn't. I love this video. I think people need to be reminded that we can all just be shitty sometimes, and that generally when we tell stories that they're going to be influenced by how we remember the event, and that those memories are colored by how we felt at the time.
I mean, we’re all the heroes of our own stories so it makes sense that when telling a story we inadvertently paint ourselves as heroes. Most people don’t want to be bad guys. We do it unconsciously and it’s really hard to say something bad about yourself without giving context. The sense of holding back context is palpable in this video, lol. Kudos to you for doing it. I wouldn’t be able to without saying “but that was because…” at the end of every story. Great video, as always.
Often in retrospect, when taking many different factors into account, do we have the wherewithal to say that we could have handled a situation better. In fact, there’s probably hundreds of situations like this in a person’s life just going off of my own and my life is not old at all. But we’re also told not to beat ourselves up about those times or dwell on the negative interactions because it’s not healthy for the mind. But by that same token, it’s worth wondering when do the real assholes ever have a moment when they realise they have been assholes? The introspection is important.
@@Nikelaos_Khristianosit's important to accept one's shortcomings without condemnation. If you want to do better, you have to think about what you could do better
Some people are way more objective in telling their stories. Some outright lie like crazy, others present things fairly. And it's also the case that some people are in fact way more heroic than others. Some are just plain awful people who spend decades doing almost nothing but terrible things like crime and abuse.
Lol we have all been lied to and we have all been the bad guys. This was gold. This wasn't I stole the last box of office supplies from Troika. I had a big dumb smile across my face the whole time watching this. You remain the good guy Tim!
One of the things I most respect about Tim is his stance on trying to talk about what was going on in someone else's mind. It's something I also strive to do, because every time someone has told me what they thought was going on in my mind they've been wrong.
Thanks, man. It takes a lot of humility to tell a story like that without going the extra step of justifying yourself to the audience. One way to tell stories without coming off as egotistical is to do your best to steelman what the other party might have been thinking at the time. While it's not factually accurate to guess others' thoughts, I find that in personal life and in telling stories involving others' actions, steelmanning a potential point of view helps to humanize the other person a little bit.
Yeah I think for the memoirs you need to tell your stories the way you remember and want to tell them. I mean they are YOUR memoirs. If someone else want to tell their stories (or sides of stories) they can write a book or post some videos etc. The reason I like listening to you speak is mostly because you seem like an honest, humble and fair person in general. The stories you tell are also very interesting, to me and others at least because they’re video game related but also because I can relate to the situations and experiences as I’ve been in very similar positions in my own work life. But I wouldn’t be AS interested if I wasn’t for the most part buying what you were saying. Bla bla bla :) I’d write the book how you want it written. Constructive criticism is appreciated as long as you’re making the final call and are comfortable you’ve made the right call. Don’t have to tell you that but I think im saying I agree with you and respect you again for the time you put into these decisions.
I would just comment with the reminder that the overwhelming majority of the ways people interact with the world nowadays are all built to incentivize "Picking a side", and often to pick a ridiculous extreme when you do pick. So when people hear a story with nuance, they have been conditioned to ignore that and simple pick a side where it's black and white, heroes and villains. The people that do respect and understand that still exist, but (for example) their comment gets a dozen likes whereas the "heroes and villains" comment gets hundreds because it's simpler/easier to gain traction, which then becomes a feedback loop - so unless you're reading everything, they're much harder to come across. And like I mentioned earlier, if people continue to put out nuanced takes, but they never get the feedback of being "heard", then that pushes them down the "black and white" pipeline just as so many others before them.
I appreciate the first two stories, but honestly, I think you were in the right on that last one. Turning it into a contest would have been a nightmare.
Lol. Totally not a villain on that 3rd one. The context is obvious. The contest sounds like a great idea, and it *could* have been. But if one of those things you pointed out happened it could end up being MUCH more harmful than beneficial to the marketing. Those were very, very valid concerns. I know this because I've done that exact same kinda thing a couple of times - and gotten very similar responses. Your goal was to find ways to mitigate the issues (head off at the pass) to maximize the good and minimize the risk. But others don't see that - they see negativity and argumentativeness. Same thing I've gotten. I still haven't figured out why others can't see this sometimes. It doesn't always happen, these sorts of potential pitfalls stand out to me and I bring them up. And sometimes others freak out. I haven't figured out how to predict that. FYI - For this particular case btw I would have suggested that instead of having them write the back stories, have them submit backstory concepts of say 250 characters or less and that your team would pick the best and then write the backstory based on the concept. Which allows the contest, should allow it to be recognizable but allows a safety net to make sure the content is high quality and matches the game. Regarding the 1st. Its not a good strategy to have secret meetings. Then expecting you to do the work on it after intentionally excluding you from the design - not cool. It could be seen as petty of you refusing to do the work. But, frankly, it would have been disrespectful of them to exclude you from the meetings and then have someone else code it. It was extremely disrespectful of them to exclude you and then expect you to do as you are told. I'd have refused also. If it was early in my career I might have not been that nice actually. The correct and professional thing would have been for them to have a discussion with you about how they felt with you in design meetings to try and work things out. I mean - this strategy was stupid. Did they think you were never going to be in any design meetings ever again? Did they think you were going to be nicer and more friendly after they pulled this stunt? Doing this was just going to make things worse long-term.
What a great video that illustrates how much individual bias comes into play and how natural it is. I think there’s certainly a balance to be attained, especially if one never finds fault in one’s own actions. However, rarely are any of these situations in the stories you’ve shared binary. In all likelihood, had you attempted to comprehensively ascertain the full truth of these scenarios and who caused what when, each situation would turn out to be much more complicated than even thought initially. Each individual being pulled in multiple directions by desire or lack thereof, outside influence (family, significant other, etc.), mental and physical health, etc. Perhaps the truth even with one’s own bias ironically offers more clarity than if one attempts to investigate and organize every discernible truth analyzed from each perspective.
People don't always realize in the moment they are being rude or holding others back. I know I had/have a lot of growing to do as a person, I said and did a lot of things where I alienated people from me. only looking back can I see how much of a douche I was. Tim is right, people don't talk about being a bad person casually lol. It's not natural to talk about things you know you did wrong that you've grown from or even maybe haven't grown from but are aware of if that makes sense.
Some people will just miss the point, your game dev caution video was eye opening for many different tech fields and if some people missed the point then that's just too bad for them. Unlike video games, in our day to day lives there isn't heroes and villains. It seemed clear to me, and I assume many others, that your stories are to emphasis points in the topic you're speaking about and not trying to oust colleagues. Those who understand what you're talking about are following your point, please continue being you!
That was interesting. Oddly enough, I'm still kinda "on your side" even with all of these. I guess I've just spent hours listening to these videos from you and have become predisposed to 'taking your side'. Like I'm certain, in my brain, that there was a good reason for your actions in all of these stories EVEN THOUGH it was never stated what that could be. Sure seems like there's no winning in this kind of arena :)
Random facts about life: * Your the villain in someone's eyes. - Not always by your actions. * Sometimes the villain is the one who places the label. - Even if its by instinct. * Some great ideas, can't always be made, now or ever. - Keep them and improve them. * You can do everything right and still lose. - That is not a weakness, that is life. I don't see the third story as anyone being the bad guy. You asked a very important question that needed an answer or the contest would be canceled. It got no answer, so it was canceled. Plain and simple. Your just labeled the villain because you asked the question. Someone else could have easily asked the same question and then get labeled as the villain. People who had a lot of passion for something, to then have it killed in front of them or shot down, causes them to have a negative reaction. You can't really fault them for it. Referring to your previous video, they would need to learn to take that idea and save it in a journal for later. It may not work now, but the idea can be updated and adapted in the future. It was more important that you all can come together and make great things. Save the scraps on the cutting room floor as they could be building blocks for other creations.
Tim, I've played your games my whole life and your channel has given me so many fun moments and unexpected thoughts thinking about game design. So please take what I'm about to say as good faith and as trying to clarify why I think people have reacted this way by going through your examples. (Separately Plato would tell you evil is unthinkable because everyone wants the good, just disagree on what good is, really worth looking into if you are interested in this) 1- the 45 minute code thing, based on the information you gave, can't really be read as you doing anything wrong because either the programmer or the developer caution has created a huge inefficiency. To come across bad here the listener has to believe that a boss (here you) should just smile and nod when wildly inefficient work estimates are given; and in the story the guy's boss also was so taken when you showed him the lines that he was on your side. So there's no real way to sympathize with the programmer without having untenable views about design. 2- being forced to fire someone you don't want to fire by a tyrannical boss and then pledging never to do it again is closer but could never approach you being a "villain" because the worst possible interpretation is that you were complicit (villains have to be malicious, not just complicit, this is what makes them distinct from cynics or hostages, for example) and you then decide never to be complicit ever again. the no-context examples are sort of goofy. because nobody is going to say "hey, great, these no-context examples make tim look like the villain" because obvioiusly, since you are intentionally withholding context, no one can take these as contrition stories because presumaby your context radically changes them. So I think the most important point is really one of the first you say here: being the "bad guy" is really, really hard to do in first-person it is a bizarre expectation for any story anyone is telling at any time, not just on this channel. there's something about being conscious, rational, saying "I," that just shields one from that. everyone in life believes, almost always, to be a basically good person trying to do the right thing (ex. hitler, mussolini, these guys thought they were breaking some eggs to make an omelette). But from what I have seen of your channel, here is how I would try to convert this reaction into the best version of itself: while stories where you are the *villain* are not really reasonable to expect, you could maybe have more stories where you come off a bit less as the guy in a work situation who obviously has the right idea, for the right reasons of what to do, or at least understands the structure of the problem but no one around him and no part of the systemic issues around you is cooperating. This again is hard to do - who looks back on their life and says A was bad, B was worse, and I was C, how could I have still made things happen, oh I could have done D, I never realize I can do D and that was a failure even though other stuff was failing too. You just tend to come off a bit as a guy who in almost every situation either has the correct solution or is the only one who realizes why there isn't a correct solution. But uh if you didn't think that about yourself at least to some extent why would you be a game designer, i.e. you would be a kind of villain if you designed all these games knowing full well how shitty you were at it X). your general belief in your own competence is not a flaw it just risks turning into a more exaggerated danger of making you seem like you have all the answers in a smug way which everyone has felt from a boss and so they see you as that boss they had. another defense you for me is you also have videos which from their titles seem to be a bout bad habits, blindspots, lessons (i haven't watched all, but i plan to watch a lot!) so again these people I really think need to give you a break or at least a more generous reading. Just the thoughts of a fan who became a literature professor and thought he had 2 cents to give to this guy who gave him some of the coolest moments of his childhood w/ fallout 1 and some great pandemic gaming w/ outer worlds.-David
This is the internet. People are going to criticize you whatever you say. So focus on the positive comments cause the negative comments are NEVER going to disappear. Love the content, keep it up and tell your stories in your way.
I was put in a position to fire someone by someone above me. I basically said either you do it or you can fire us both. Can't blame you for never wanting to do it again. Edit:the 3rd story is the most reasonable proposition you could have put forward.
Yeah, that Arcanum competition sounded pretty good. I don't think making the judgement an absolute science would have been that important. Could have probably hand some runner's up thing where if a second idea was amazing but needed editing you could talk to them and ask them if they were okay with their crappy prose being changed.
Yeah agree with what you said at the end, people are not heroic or villainous images etched into stone. People are rivers, flowing fast and and loose and changing constantly even if you focus on one chunk of the river much less the river in total. Peaks and valleys, good days and bad ones, successes and failures...no life exists without both!
Tim, I watch a lot of your videos, they're great, and to me there are two things that are abundantly clear: 1) you are an extremely wise person, with self-consciousness and humility and the rare ability to know when you're at fault and admit when you're wrong, yet 2) your inability to experience ego issues and thrive in drama means that you are sometimes completely blind to it in other people, since they function differently, to the point where it might appear a bit foolish. Like when you mentioned you didn't realize that some people are just out to vent. We could insert a TBBT or Dilbert joke on engineers here but really, this is quite a common combination of personality traits. As someone who is a bit like that, I was told in my career that my inability to take things personally and get offended brings out the worst in some people. Some are out to cause an emotional reaction, any reaction, and when they don't get it and just a rational argument instead, they get mad and think they should just escalate a step further. Maybe you've run into some of that. I don't know if that makes sense, but sometimes we have to tone down our own rational self to level with other people's emotions.
I have always felt telling stories where you (yourselves) are the bad guy usually boil down to either a story about duty (it was your job) or the regrettable kick-a-puppy story where your reaction to small slight was completely disportionate. Either way, typically you don't realize the true emotional depths of your actions years later when apologies mean very little (if possible atoll) and I imagine it is more emotional baggage for you rather than the other person.
We have a saying in my band, leave the ego at the door. When working on something creative clashes are inevitable, but as I'm hearing you telling these stories it sounds like you tried to do just that, leave the ego out of it, for the best possible product. We all have moments when we have done things that we aren't proud of, but that doesn't define our entire being.
Man, I remember it like yesterday when I found out that some of the makers of one of my all time favourite games, fallout, went on and made their own company and are making turn based rpgs. I was so happy. It also coincided with me leaving my home city for a different one for university, which meant that I actually had time to play. Was very sad when troika closed. But I am also sorry to hear what an absolute nightmare some aspects of it were.
One thing I noticed is in one video, you went on and on about how bad to work with the Wildstar art director was- and then in another video where two subordinates had an altercation, you mentioned the art director and surprisingly said "he handled it very well". I don't know if it was the same guy, but I was definitely expecting the guy to be mentioned and was surprised when the script got flipped as it were
I had a long talk with my boss about about the concept of being a "villain" advice or in our day to day work in my early years in game dev. Pragmatism or pressure sometimes overrides the human part of development until its too late, but most of the times ego or malice is not envolved (at least not anymore) and you just say things without understanding certain key factors. Reality is that sometimes misconception happens, from both sides, and certain words feel like they have another meaning. Most of the devs i know had to learn to tougnen up when receiveng feedback, and to stay quiet and listen, because we were told that we need to understand that people usually dont mean harm. But i always tell the new ones, or people that i lead the same phrase "You can disagree or dislike a result. You will be told your work is shit. You will be told you are fucking up. But if reasons are not given, solutions are not presented or debate is not on the table is better to disregard that opinion. If the conversation shows that you are not worth enough to be explained what the problem is, feedback has no value, the problem does not exist or the opinion is meant to disrupt" After understanding that, human problems tend to decrease greatly and involvement rises. Of course you can still mess up, but the concept o villain dissapears and is replaced with the understanding that we are all humans, and we tendo to make mistakes.
In all the examples, we can come up with circumstances and outcomes, that can be seen in retrospect that you were the good or reasonable guy. It's really hard to tell a story about yourself being a villain.
Hi, I was watching a developer interview on why day 1 patches are a thing. A combination of a game passing certification, needing to make physical copies. Then using D1P's to update the game with that work. In the video the creator thanks the dev. Says, great I don't have to like it but now I know. Cut to same creator, from a recent video “Why do D1P's exist? Their is no excuse for them.”
Oof, I've got a ton of stories worse than this about me. I still think about every single time I was a shitheel and feel so embarrassed with my own behavior. Since those days I'm a lot less "sure" about my positions and take the time to hear people out and give their ideas and feelings the proper respect. Some people are born with that, I had to learn it, and I'm still learning.
"I admitted to saying that statement... and a number other statements too. Leonard was upset; so was the person who overheard. I wouldn't apologise, and that caused months of tension." What a chad you are, Timothy.
There will always be critics, I am glad you address them in this video. It is probably best to ignore them going forward, as their goal is to derail you from this gift to us starting out in game development.
Honestly, most of the critical comments under his videos are from outright morons - often incoherent people who didnt even comprehend the statements made in the video. People are just dumb/drunk sometimes when commenting bc they have poor comprehension.
We can all be the villain. It's less a "who you are" thing and more a "where you are right now" thing. Some people are more or less prone to being "villainous", but some people are also more or less prone to interpreting someone as being "villainous".
Thank you for the video Tim! I find stories without (some) context are unsatisfying. Unless you are presenting a technical point or a lesson learned. E.g. the second story kind of breaks my heart.. but it is obvious that a lot of context is missing there and that there is much more to that story. Anyhow, can we please have access to the memoir please??? 😅 I would be happy with just a pdf version. Anyhow, thank you for the story Tim, have a great day 😊
For sure! And the way that I reconcile it is through the idea that sometimes we do have to be someone’s “necessary evil” for them to learn something that they are refusing to learn. Even if it’s a friend, it often takes a friend to say, “Hey you know what, you’ve been ass lately and here’s why…” and that takes being an asshole but also being a friend at the same time.
Youre right we shouldnt frame most od this as Heroes & Villains, when it's just humans and arguments (which are good and healthy). However... in this 3rd story, there are good guys and bad ones. Heroes that asked the right questions and humans that blamed the hero and thus are villains. The 3rd story, you are the hero who asked the right question that prevented a major problem. The idea was bad, and your questiom revealed it to be bad. That makes you good, even if every human in the discussion was overly dramatic and too emotional arguing their opinion. You were blamed for the contest never happened bc the blamers were stupid people who cant take responsibility or accept reality that the idea was bad. Not your fault they got mad at you for being the hero. That ironically makes them a villain for accusing the hero of being villainous. "It's your fault the team didnt get to do the strategy that would create problems! Boo! I wanted my plan my way and you ruined it! QQ" The blamers sound like babies.
My Biggest Lesson - th-cam.com/video/GqNcNtxHU6E/w-d-xo.html Learning Lessons From Failure - th-cam.com/video/Kh5JMp5_5nQ/w-d-xo.html Stories like these from industry veterans have become a kind of new mentorship. Listened to this twice but what I was more curious about was: Were there any moments of major self reflection after a release, where you tried to tease apart what aspects of your directing style was ultimately a net benefit for the project vs what you resolved to change about your style going forward? As with all arts, especially collaborative technical ones, maybe it's impossible to truly min max one's influence in the chaos - but I'm sure there's some valuable lessons we can take in.
You're more driven and logical and less egotistical than most creatives, which is why those confrontations happen in similar ways in your history. It isn't a character flaw of yours, it's a lack of communication skills in the people you're working with.
![[UNCUT] ฝันรักห้วงนิทรา | EP.3 (1/4)](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/zVXAFD1OLZg/mqdefault.jpg)
Tim Cain seems like the kind of final boss you can defeat with speech skills.
What if I big dumb barb and use short word. Then I can beat Tim with speech?? Strong word barb win all speech.
Very far from final boss. He has a lot of weak points and invalid unsound arguments in many of his videos. So not very speech skill and rhetoric needed to defeat him. Mini-boss, maybe, for some.
@@TrueNeutralEvGenius Care to point out some of those invalid and/or unsound arguments? You can't just say that without providing context.
@@ZiddersRooFurryAnyone that throws genius in their own name is not worth arguing with.
+10 Luck wouldn't hurt 🍀
The Leonard story without context makes it even more hilarious in my opinion.
It's seems like work environment awareness that Tim had missing. People gossip, and if you deliver them something to gossip around that sound negative without proper context, then they'll do just that. It cost me job once, because I didn't yet know that in work environment anyone can be listening to your conversation from outside, picking some things up and escalating this to manager.
@@Divus90 In my current workplace, the workers' break room is next to the managerial staff rooms, and some of my fellow guys are talking really loud how they don't aggree the decisions. Then they are baffled when they don't get to continue working there when the term is up. I want to run outside when they start talking shit so I won't get flak from that, managers thinking that me listening there on coffee break means that I think likewise. Mostly those guys have simple problems they bitch about in the break room, they could just walk a few meters and say how things are for them, and that I bet would help a lot everyone.
Whats the context?
@@ilari90 “Is your washroom breeding Bolsheviks?!”
I’m glad Tim is wise enough to be able to admit that he wasn’t always in the right. That’s a level of maturity you don’t see even in a lot of adults.
Well, imho he is right in all of them, but you can be right and destructive. So it's not only about being right/wrong.
I agree, the humility to admit the games he worked on had bugs, while games without him didn’t was surprising to me. It’s one thing to admit flaws in your character, but to admit that the work you do (and presumably are very proud of) is also flawed is very open and honest
He didn't say he wasn't in the right. He said he was telling stories where he came off as the villain. He also said that was specifically because he wasn't given the context. Implying that if he did give the context he probably would not come off as the villain. I'm really starting to wonder if people recently are starting to have trouble understanding / seeing right from wrong. Some of the "heros" in recent shows and moves have been truly horrible people doing morally wrong things.
@@doodlemaster5295 This might sound strange, but I'm pretty sure its because he cares about quality - in this case software quality. You can't have good quality software and learn to improve your own ability to write good quality software unless you are willing to see and admit to your own faults. I've been the top developer at every place I've worked for many years now - and I'm always my own worst critic. I have a high quality standard that I apply to my own code, higher than I apply to anyone else. I suspect Tim is similar.
Tim Cain saying "Troika is dead." hit me for more emotional damage than I expected it to.
The twist is that this was his true villain story
"Did you ever hear the Tragedy of Darth Cain the Wise? I thought not. It's not a story the HR would tell you. It’s an Interplay legend. Darth Cain was a Dark Lord of the C, so powerful and so wise he could use the code to influence the compilers to create GAMES… He had such a knowledge of the in-side that he could even keep the characters he cared about from... dying. The dark side of the C is a pathway to many codebases some consider to be... untested. He became so powerful… the only thing he was afraid of was losing his power, which eventually, of course, he did."
- Revenge of the Plebs
🤣
Everyone always best remembers the stories in which they were the good guy.
I know some stories in which I was the bad guy, but the way I tell it is for comedic effect.
The ones where I was really the bad guy with no upside, I have tucked away in the dark recesses of my brain.
I hope you don't tuck away those bad stories too far; the silver lining is that you can either choose to learn from them and be better, or not. I struggle with that.
@@0ia It's not something I am doing consciously. Or anyone I guess.
These can be potentially traumatic experiences and a lot of people even struggle to get out of that depressing "negative thought spiral".
In my opinion, one should learn the behaviour, then drop the story. The main point is recognising you were the bad guy at all - some people don't even get that far.
@@jesperburns That's great. "Drop the story" is something I've been experimenting with. Because the story has too much weight beyond the objective parts. And recognizing being the bad guy is respecting truths, and respecting truths makes it way easier to work with reality.
I wish trauma weren't a thing! But it seems it's a part of being human.
Have a nice day.
@@jesperburns I have that issue. I'm only 25 but there's sooo many stories where I've been the bad guy, and I cannot stop thinking about them.
Every single day I go through every mistake I've ever made and beat myself up for it. It's a constant drag on my emotions. I'll be having a good day, and I'll have the thought of the time me and my ex were fighting and I got mad and slammed my fist on a table and scared her, and it'll ruin my day. Idk how to get out of that trap. I've done a good job treating people better than I used to, but it doesn't change the times I've been a real piece of shit.
@@Hoppelite Not sure how to word this correctly but you are actually not the main protagonist of the game world.
That horrible thing you accidentally said last week? Nobody remembers that but you. They have a dozen other things going on themselves.
They don't pick up on every nuance, because they forgot the bread.
Only you are constantly reliving those stories, because everyone else is doing the same, but for their own.
Fallout 1 needs a mod to have the Followers of the Apocalyse win because their good ending need a character that was cut out, so all they can look forward is being destroyed by the Master. This is the most villainous thing Tim did.
Another TK-Mantis shirt! I loved the interview you did with him, he has so much love and passion for games that’s just contagious.
the first one is particularly interesting because generally people don't acknowledge some of their own flaws to themselves, so they usually don't even know when they're the villain in someone elses story. but since you had to be told about these secret meetings are why they were having them it reveals something about you which you may not acknowledge fully - which is brave imo, nice one.
The contest one I've had happen to me before too ahah crazy man. People come up with a random half assed idea, and when you ask more details or how you are supposed to bring that to fruition in reality they go all defensive or call you 'argumentative' or other bs like that because they can't be bothered actually using their brains for 5 minutes trying to actually piece it all together and expect you to do it for them.
Yeah, exactly, I don't think Tim was a "villain" in that one because he brought up a very good and practical concern for that idea. Sometimes people don't communicate clearly, or they don't think things through, and they lash out at people who help them realize that.
It's really interesting how the fact I'm so used to Tim sharing so candidly and value his professional opinions on game development that, in the second story, I found myself giving him the benefit of the doubt and thinking that there must be some validating reason why he said those things.
But its totally imaginable that if I was just working under him, or barely knew him, or wasn't used to him taking time to explain his reasoning I would just assume he's a jerk and move on. Which would then probably color all future interactions with him.
Tim you really need to release these memoirs...
I admire you even more after this video.
Why? These werent really much of anything.
Story 1 - he was excluded from meetings bc he hadnt yet developed the skills to coddle other softer designers (a real skill, unfortunately). Okay.
Story 2 - he was a jerk to a coworker he didnt respect. Funny but okay? Who cares. Everyone will dislike somebody for some reason and this is just how it goes. Everyone can be a jerk sometimes - even when ppl think they arent being too passive & reserved creates just as many (or more) problems as being too blunt and direct. Everyone loses here.
Story 3 - I just watched it and dint even remember it bc it was so meh.
Tim cant find better examples where he was a Villain bc he wasnt really a Villain. He was just a human, and often the smarter one or more confident one in a room of sensitive ppl. Sometimes the dumber one in a room of his peers - everyone is like this. Good ideas and bad. That's why you have collaborative discussions. To pick the best idea.
Not to argue that you were the hero in the last story, but when you said the premise of the contest, the first thing I thought was "What do they mean by best written?" Because that could mean: the most applicable backstory to Arcanum's world/story; the most applicable backstory to Arcanum's whimsical theme; etc. It's quite a subjective notion. So I definitely think you brought up a good question that was inevitably going to be asked in that process.
Well Tim, I won't say that third story wasn't necessarily you being a bad person, or mean. You brought up a good point and unfortunately that good point derailed not only the discussion, but the contest. I know people want to pin the blame on you for that one, and I know why they want to do it. No one wants to accept fault for such a great in concept idea, falling apart because it'd be really hard to execute. Still hearing it the way you told it makes it sound like, in hind sight, a really funny incident.
Thought similarly. The points brought up as-told seem very valid and like the kinds of things that need to be figured out BEFORE going public with an idea. Idk how the conversation went, given the "argumentative" claims, but the basis of the impetus made sense.
A potentially better outcome than if they discussed this point after promoting the contest. Could you imagine putting out a statement that says; "We regret to inform you that the contest is cancelled due to the staff being unable to decide on how to judge your entries. The entries are now null and void but as per the contest rules, are still property of Sierra Games."
Tim was completely in the right in the third story. Logistics matter. All the points he mentions raising are things that they absolutely would have had to figure out had they moved forward. He was simply being realistic, which inexplicably bothers some people.
@@kylenewberry9792People get extremely upset when you throw facts into their "brilliant" idea.
@@kylenewberry9792 The point of the video is that it's easy to agree when you weren't there. It's easy to agree with Tim when he's presenting what happened and you already feel like he's a reasonable and humble person. The reality is that there may have been good counter-arguments to his position and it's easy when people care about a project to get carried away with emotional responses.
Fun thing for me: again, like in the "You should have fired him...", I don't see any bad behaviour in this. For me it's just honesty most people try to hide behind (false) politeness.
We are the heroes of our own stories, and there's no clear cut between good and evil.
Even in cases where there's a consensus on what constitutes a virtuous action, there will always be someone who thinks otherwise. This is also true for vicious or frowned upon behaviors.
That's the nature of human perception. It is shaped by the infinitely diverse contexts of one's life experiences.
What I take as the most important attribute in life isn't the capacity for good - for, as I said before, that's completely subjective and biased. The most important skill is empathy, the ability to put yourself more or less on someone else's shoes and abstract how your actions might have impacted them, even if only in retrospective.
If one at least tries to understand his or her impact on someone's life, that's enough for me. And you clearly can do that.
Cheers!
I love ya man, and also I LOVE the TKS-Mantis Shirt!!❤️❤️
I laughed so hard, I snorted. Thanks, Tim!
The contest story doesn't even sound that bad. Having the selection criteria discussion was going to happen anyway, so it makes sense to be preemptively done to see if the contest even makes sense. There is likely a lot that happened during the meeting that we are not aware of still.
Yeah, it’s more like someone noticing a critical flaw in what is overall an appealing concept.
I agree, and I think the contest sounds like an objectively terrible idea for all the questions he had about it. I think if he went along with it without questioning it, at the very least the Sierra lawyers would have had major problems with it and stopped it. It sounds like a really fun idea on the surface, but there are a lot of reasons it's never really done.
the contest thing is a classic autism tale to me, i always get stuck in the nitty gritty and make people upset by asking "well how are we gonna do this" 🤣🤣🤣🤣
After seeing the kickstarter backer stuff in the first Pillars, It is probably a blessing there was no fan contest content in Arcanum.
Goddamnit Tim! xD
Yet that only makes me more invested on your stories, you are just human, as we all!
Aknowledging those stories in the video in my opinion makes you even more relevant for us to listen to you.
We know what we are getting, and you are such a genuine and uplifting person!
Cheers from Brazil!
Everyone thinks they know who they are until they are the one making the decisions and writing the checks, and being the one whose head is on the block for the work that their employees are doing.
I remember reading one of the comments that you mentioned and I really wanted to say something but I'm glad I didn't. I love this video. I think people need to be reminded that we can all just be shitty sometimes, and that generally when we tell stories that they're going to be influenced by how we remember the event, and that those memories are colored by how we felt at the time.
I bet the context for #2 has some lessons to learn in it all around.
Great shirt Tim!!! Thank you so much for all the great stories.
I'm so grateful to hear your recollections on your ongoing career
Greatly appreciate this Tim thank you!
I mean, we’re all the heroes of our own stories so it makes sense that when telling a story we inadvertently paint ourselves as heroes. Most people don’t want to be bad guys. We do it unconsciously and it’s really hard to say something bad about yourself without giving context.
The sense of holding back context is palpable in this video, lol. Kudos to you for doing it. I wouldn’t be able to without saying “but that was because…” at the end of every story.
Great video, as always.
Often in retrospect, when taking many different factors into account, do we have the wherewithal to say that we could have handled a situation better. In fact, there’s probably hundreds of situations like this in a person’s life just going off of my own and my life is not old at all. But we’re also told not to beat ourselves up about those times or dwell on the negative interactions because it’s not healthy for the mind. But by that same token, it’s worth wondering when do the real assholes ever have a moment when they realise they have been assholes? The introspection is important.
@@Nikelaos_Khristianosit's important to accept one's shortcomings without condemnation. If you want to do better, you have to think about what you could do better
Some people are way more objective in telling their stories. Some outright lie like crazy, others present things fairly. And it's also the case that some people are in fact way more heroic than others. Some are just plain awful people who spend decades doing almost nothing but terrible things like crime and abuse.
Lol we have all been lied to and we have all been the bad guys. This was gold. This wasn't I stole the last box of office supplies from Troika. I had a big dumb smile across my face the whole time watching this. You remain the good guy Tim!
Everyone is a jerk sometimes, but this kind of humble introspection is extremely rare. Good on you for demonstrating it for others to learn from.
I could listen to you spin your tales for hours😂😂😂 such a good spokesperson /storyteller❤❤
Hey i can understand when i'm the bad-guy. the only thing i can do is grow from the experience. I really appreciate the stories.
Aww, poor Leonard... 😢
Never finding out why Tim refused to apologize in that story is gonna hurt.
The competition judgement criteria question felt fair
One of the things I most respect about Tim is his stance on trying to talk about what was going on in someone else's mind. It's something I also strive to do, because every time someone has told me what they thought was going on in my mind they've been wrong.
thanks tim. i needed this happy it was here to discover.
Thanks, man. It takes a lot of humility to tell a story like that without going the extra step of justifying yourself to the audience. One way to tell stories without coming off as egotistical is to do your best to steelman what the other party might have been thinking at the time. While it's not factually accurate to guess others' thoughts, I find that in personal life and in telling stories involving others' actions, steelmanning a potential point of view helps to humanize the other person a little bit.
For that third one though, that's a great question to ask.
darker lighting in the background adds to the badguy mood :D
Time Cain is actually the master confirmed he dipped employees in FEV
Yeah I think for the memoirs you need to tell your stories the way you remember and want to tell them. I mean they are YOUR memoirs. If someone else want to tell their stories (or sides of stories) they can write a book or post some videos etc.
The reason I like listening to you speak is mostly because you seem like an honest, humble and fair person in general. The stories you tell are also very interesting, to me and others at least because they’re video game related but also because I can relate to the situations and experiences as I’ve been in very similar positions in my own work life. But I wouldn’t be AS interested if I wasn’t for the most part buying what you were saying. Bla bla bla :) I’d write the book how you want it written. Constructive criticism is appreciated as long as you’re making the final call and are comfortable you’ve made the right call. Don’t have to tell you that but I think im saying I agree with you and respect you again for the time you put into these decisions.
I would just comment with the reminder that the overwhelming majority of the ways people interact with the world nowadays are all built to incentivize "Picking a side", and often to pick a ridiculous extreme when you do pick. So when people hear a story with nuance, they have been conditioned to ignore that and simple pick a side where it's black and white, heroes and villains.
The people that do respect and understand that still exist, but (for example) their comment gets a dozen likes whereas the "heroes and villains" comment gets hundreds because it's simpler/easier to gain traction, which then becomes a feedback loop - so unless you're reading everything, they're much harder to come across. And like I mentioned earlier, if people continue to put out nuanced takes, but they never get the feedback of being "heard", then that pushes them down the "black and white" pipeline just as so many others before them.
I love your way of seeing the world. That's what I'm here for
I just wanna say thanks for highlighting the human aspects in development.
I appreciate the first two stories, but honestly, I think you were in the right on that last one. Turning it into a contest would have been a nightmare.
Cool story bro! Seriously, what this tells me is that you're a human being - a hero and a villain - just like the rest of us.
Lol. Totally not a villain on that 3rd one. The context is obvious. The contest sounds like a great idea, and it *could* have been. But if one of those things you pointed out happened it could end up being MUCH more harmful than beneficial to the marketing. Those were very, very valid concerns. I know this because I've done that exact same kinda thing a couple of times - and gotten very similar responses. Your goal was to find ways to mitigate the issues (head off at the pass) to maximize the good and minimize the risk. But others don't see that - they see negativity and argumentativeness. Same thing I've gotten. I still haven't figured out why others can't see this sometimes. It doesn't always happen, these sorts of potential pitfalls stand out to me and I bring them up. And sometimes others freak out. I haven't figured out how to predict that.
FYI - For this particular case btw I would have suggested that instead of having them write the back stories, have them submit backstory concepts of say 250 characters or less and that your team would pick the best and then write the backstory based on the concept. Which allows the contest, should allow it to be recognizable but allows a safety net to make sure the content is high quality and matches the game.
Regarding the 1st. Its not a good strategy to have secret meetings. Then expecting you to do the work on it after intentionally excluding you from the design - not cool. It could be seen as petty of you refusing to do the work. But, frankly, it would have been disrespectful of them to exclude you from the meetings and then have someone else code it. It was extremely disrespectful of them to exclude you and then expect you to do as you are told. I'd have refused also. If it was early in my career I might have not been that nice actually. The correct and professional thing would have been for them to have a discussion with you about how they felt with you in design meetings to try and work things out. I mean - this strategy was stupid. Did they think you were never going to be in any design meetings ever again? Did they think you were going to be nicer and more friendly after they pulled this stunt? Doing this was just going to make things worse long-term.
What a great video that illustrates how much individual bias comes into play and how natural it is. I think there’s certainly a balance to be attained, especially if one never finds fault in one’s own actions. However, rarely are any of these situations in the stories you’ve shared binary. In all likelihood, had you attempted to comprehensively ascertain the full truth of these scenarios and who caused what when, each situation would turn out to be much more complicated than even thought initially. Each individual being pulled in multiple directions by desire or lack thereof, outside influence (family, significant other, etc.), mental and physical health, etc. Perhaps the truth even with one’s own bias ironically offers more clarity than if one attempts to investigate and organize every discernible truth analyzed from each perspective.
People don't always realize in the moment they are being rude or holding others back. I know I had/have a lot of growing to do as a person, I said and did a lot of things where I alienated people from me. only looking back can I see how much of a douche I was. Tim is right, people don't talk about being a bad person casually lol. It's not natural to talk about things you know you did wrong that you've grown from or even maybe haven't grown from but are aware of if that makes sense.
I wish everyone was as transparent and good at communication as you Tim, t'would be a better world probably
Some people will just miss the point, your game dev caution video was eye opening for many different tech fields and if some people missed the point then that's just too bad for them. Unlike video games, in our day to day lives there isn't heroes and villains. It seemed clear to me, and I assume many others, that your stories are to emphasis points in the topic you're speaking about and not trying to oust colleagues. Those who understand what you're talking about are following your point, please continue being you!
That was interesting. Oddly enough, I'm still kinda "on your side" even with all of these. I guess I've just spent hours listening to these videos from you and have become predisposed to 'taking your side'. Like I'm certain, in my brain, that there was a good reason for your actions in all of these stories EVEN THOUGH it was never stated what that could be. Sure seems like there's no winning in this kind of arena :)
Random facts about life:
* Your the villain in someone's eyes. - Not always by your actions.
* Sometimes the villain is the one who places the label. - Even if its by instinct.
* Some great ideas, can't always be made, now or ever. - Keep them and improve them.
* You can do everything right and still lose. - That is not a weakness, that is life.
I don't see the third story as anyone being the bad guy. You asked a very important question that needed an answer or the contest would be canceled. It got no answer, so it was canceled. Plain and simple. Your just labeled the villain because you asked the question. Someone else could have easily asked the same question and then get labeled as the villain.
People who had a lot of passion for something, to then have it killed in front of them or shot down, causes them to have a negative reaction. You can't really fault them for it. Referring to your previous video, they would need to learn to take that idea and save it in a journal for later. It may not work now, but the idea can be updated and adapted in the future.
It was more important that you all can come together and make great things. Save the scraps on the cutting room floor as they could be building blocks for other creations.
This is such a great channel
Wow, this video should be viewed by the whole of twitter! People always forget that everyone else is also just a person.
This just proves what a good guy you must be. If these are the worst acts of villainy you can think of, you're like a saint compared to me.
This is a really great video. I can really see the gears turning in your head as you go through this exercise of trying not to give context.
If you listen closely, you can hear those gears squeaking.
Tim, I've played your games my whole life and your channel has given me so many fun moments and unexpected thoughts thinking about game design. So please take what I'm about to say as good faith and as trying to clarify why I think people have reacted this way by going through your examples. (Separately Plato would tell you evil is unthinkable because everyone wants the good, just disagree on what good is, really worth looking into if you are interested in this)
1- the 45 minute code thing, based on the information you gave, can't really be read as you doing anything wrong because either the programmer or the developer caution has created a huge inefficiency. To come across bad here the listener has to believe that a boss (here you) should just smile and nod when wildly inefficient work estimates are given; and in the story the guy's boss also was so taken when you showed him the lines that he was on your side. So there's no real way to sympathize with the programmer without having untenable views about design.
2- being forced to fire someone you don't want to fire by a tyrannical boss and then pledging never to do it again is closer but could never approach you being a "villain" because the worst possible interpretation is that you were complicit (villains have to be malicious, not just complicit, this is what makes them distinct from cynics or hostages, for example) and you then decide never to be complicit ever again.
the no-context examples are sort of goofy. because nobody is going to say "hey, great, these no-context examples make tim look like the villain" because obvioiusly, since you are intentionally withholding context, no one can take these as contrition stories because presumaby your context radically changes them.
So I think the most important point is really one of the first you say here: being the "bad guy" is really, really hard to do in first-person it is a bizarre expectation for any story anyone is telling at any time, not just on this channel. there's something about being conscious, rational, saying "I," that just shields one from that. everyone in life believes, almost always, to be a basically good person trying to do the right thing (ex. hitler, mussolini, these guys thought they were breaking some eggs to make an omelette).
But from what I have seen of your channel, here is how I would try to convert this reaction into the best version of itself: while stories where you are the *villain* are not really reasonable to expect, you could maybe have more stories where you come off a bit less as the guy in a work situation who obviously has the right idea, for the right reasons of what to do, or at least understands the structure of the problem but no one around him and no part of the systemic issues around you is cooperating. This again is hard to do - who looks back on their life and says A was bad, B was worse, and I was C, how could I have still made things happen, oh I could have done D, I never realize I can do D and that was a failure even though other stuff was failing too. You just tend to come off a bit as a guy who in almost every situation either has the correct solution or is the only one who realizes why there isn't a correct solution. But uh if you didn't think that about yourself at least to some extent why would you be a game designer, i.e. you would be a kind of villain if you designed all these games knowing full well how shitty you were at it X). your general belief in your own competence is not a flaw it just risks turning into a more exaggerated danger of making you seem like you have all the answers in a smug way which everyone has felt from a boss and so they see you as that boss they had. another defense you for me is you also have videos which from their titles seem to be a bout bad habits, blindspots, lessons (i haven't watched all, but i plan to watch a lot!) so again these people I really think need to give you a break or at least a more generous reading. Just the thoughts of a fan who became a literature professor and thought he had 2 cents to give to this guy who gave him some of the coolest moments of his childhood w/ fallout 1 and some great pandemic gaming w/ outer worlds.-David
This is the internet. People are going to criticize you whatever you say. So focus on the positive comments cause the negative comments are NEVER going to disappear. Love the content, keep it up and tell your stories in your way.
I was put in a position to fire someone by someone above me. I basically said either you do it or you can fire us both. Can't blame you for never wanting to do it again. Edit:the 3rd story is the most reasonable proposition you could have put forward.
And we all love a good villain! 😍
Yeah, that Arcanum competition sounded pretty good. I don't think making the judgement an absolute science would have been that important. Could have probably hand some runner's up thing where if a second idea was amazing but needed editing you could talk to them and ask them if they were okay with their crappy prose being changed.
Yeah agree with what you said at the end, people are not heroic or villainous images etched into stone. People are rivers, flowing fast and and loose and changing constantly even if you focus on one chunk of the river much less the river in total. Peaks and valleys, good days and bad ones, successes and failures...no life exists without both!
8:33 Argumentative for the RIGHT F-ing Reasons. You know how to steer the Ship. And Idiots wanted to get some 3th Place Marketing Trophys.
Tim, I watch a lot of your videos, they're great, and to me there are two things that are abundantly clear: 1) you are an extremely wise person, with self-consciousness and humility and the rare ability to know when you're at fault and admit when you're wrong, yet
2) your inability to experience ego issues and thrive in drama means that you are sometimes completely blind to it in other people, since they function differently, to the point where it might appear a bit foolish. Like when you mentioned you didn't realize that some people are just out to vent. We could insert a TBBT or Dilbert joke on engineers here but really, this is quite a common combination of personality traits.
As someone who is a bit like that, I was told in my career that my inability to take things personally and get offended brings out the worst in some people. Some are out to cause an emotional reaction, any reaction, and when they don't get it and just a rational argument instead, they get mad and think they should just escalate a step further. Maybe you've run into some of that. I don't know if that makes sense, but sometimes we have to tone down our own rational self to level with other people's emotions.
Tim really shows his programming background here. Seems like alot of his concerns come from "what if" scenarios
I have always felt telling stories where you (yourselves) are the bad guy usually boil down to either a story about duty (it was your job) or the regrettable kick-a-puppy story where your reaction to small slight was completely disportionate. Either way, typically you don't realize the true emotional depths of your actions years later when apologies mean very little (if possible atoll) and I imagine it is more emotional baggage for you rather than the other person.
We have a saying in my band, leave the ego at the door. When working on something creative clashes are inevitable, but as I'm hearing you telling these stories it sounds like you tried to do just that, leave the ego out of it, for the best possible product.
We all have moments when we have done things that we aren't proud of, but that doesn't define our entire being.
Man, I remember it like yesterday when I found out that some of the makers of one of my all time favourite games, fallout, went on and made their own company and are making turn based rpgs. I was so happy. It also coincided with me leaving my home city for a different one for university, which meant that I actually had time to play. Was very sad when troika closed. But I am also sorry to hear what an absolute nightmare some aspects of it were.
One thing I noticed is in one video, you went on and on about how bad to work with the Wildstar art director was- and then in another video where two subordinates had an altercation, you mentioned the art director and surprisingly said "he handled it very well". I don't know if it was the same guy, but I was definitely expecting the guy to be mentioned and was surprised when the script got flipped as it were
Love this shirt
I had a long talk with my boss about about the concept of being a "villain" advice or in our day to day work in my early years in game dev. Pragmatism or pressure sometimes overrides the human part of development until its too late, but most of the times ego or malice is not envolved (at least not anymore) and you just say things without understanding certain key factors.
Reality is that sometimes misconception happens, from both sides, and certain words feel like they have another meaning.
Most of the devs i know had to learn to tougnen up when receiveng feedback, and to stay quiet and listen, because we were told that we need to understand that people usually dont mean harm. But i always tell the new ones, or people that i lead the same phrase "You can disagree or dislike a result. You will be told your work is shit. You will be told you are fucking up. But if reasons are not given, solutions are not presented or debate is not on the table is better to disregard that opinion. If the conversation shows that you are not worth enough to be explained what the problem is, feedback has no value, the problem does not exist or the opinion is meant to disrupt"
After understanding that, human problems tend to decrease greatly and involvement rises. Of course you can still mess up, but the concept o villain dissapears and is replaced with the understanding that we are all humans, and we tendo to make mistakes.
In all the examples, we can come up with circumstances and outcomes, that can be seen in retrospect that you were the good or reasonable guy. It's really hard to tell a story about yourself being a villain.
Hi,
I was watching a developer interview on why day 1 patches are a thing. A combination of a game passing certification, needing to make physical copies. Then using D1P's to update the game with that work. In the video the creator thanks the dev. Says, great I don't have to like it but now I know. Cut to same creator, from a recent video “Why do D1P's exist? Their is no excuse for them.”
Oof, I've got a ton of stories worse than this about me. I still think about every single time I was a shitheel and feel so embarrassed with my own behavior. Since those days I'm a lot less "sure" about my positions and take the time to hear people out and give their ideas and feelings the proper respect. Some people are born with that, I had to learn it, and I'm still learning.
The TKS-Mantis shirt goes crazy
You should write a book about the story of Troika Games. That way you can include stories that didn't have you present.
'That time i caused a massive argument by asking the most innocuous question in the world.'
"I admitted to saying that statement... and a number other statements too. Leonard was upset; so was the person who overheard. I wouldn't apologise, and that caused months of tension."
What a chad you are, Timothy.
There will always be critics, I am glad you address them in this video. It is probably best to ignore them going forward, as their goal is to derail you from this gift to us starting out in game development.
Honestly, most of the critical comments under his videos are from outright morons - often incoherent people who didnt even comprehend the statements made in the video. People are just dumb/drunk sometimes when commenting bc they have poor comprehension.
You're a hero for making this video;)
Tim like that T.K. , respect, more of an epicnate fan myself ❤👍🏼
The 3rd one don't seem bad...you avoided a big future problem... even maybe lawsuit 😂
When you have 10 charisma everyone would be scared 😂🖤
With the 2nd one it definitely seems like it needs context. I respect your vulnerability here, I think it's a good study you should let us in more on.
My favorite thing about people is we're all Effed up in unique and interesting ways. lol.
We can all be the villain. It's less a "who you are" thing and more a "where you are right now" thing.
Some people are more or less prone to being "villainous", but some people are also more or less prone to interpreting someone as being "villainous".
Thank you for the video Tim!
I find stories without (some) context are unsatisfying. Unless you are presenting a technical point or a lesson learned. E.g. the second story kind of breaks my heart.. but it is obvious that a lot of context is missing there and that there is much more to that story.
Anyhow, can we please have access to the memoir please??? 😅 I would be happy with just a pdf version.
Anyhow, thank you for the story Tim, have a great day 😊
Tim's villain era
The contest one just sounds like a good question to ask. The backstory contest is just a bad idea
I really like that TKS-Mantis shirt
only bad guy points with two fingers from the hip
villain / heroe perspective is not really how human relationships work. The reality is that we are all just faulty human beings
Hard to please everyone. Sometimes we gotta be a bad guy in someone else's story.
For sure! And the way that I reconcile it is through the idea that sometimes we do have to be someone’s “necessary evil” for them to learn something that they are refusing to learn.
Even if it’s a friend, it often takes a friend to say, “Hey you know what, you’ve been ass lately and here’s why…” and that takes being an asshole but also being a friend at the same time.
Youre right we shouldnt frame most od this as Heroes & Villains, when it's just humans and arguments (which are good and healthy).
However... in this 3rd story, there are good guys and bad ones. Heroes that asked the right questions and humans that blamed the hero and thus are villains.
The 3rd story, you are the hero who asked the right question that prevented a major problem. The idea was bad, and your questiom revealed it to be bad. That makes you good, even if every human in the discussion was overly dramatic and too emotional arguing their opinion.
You were blamed for the contest never happened bc the blamers were stupid people who cant take responsibility or accept reality that the idea was bad. Not your fault they got mad at you for being the hero. That ironically makes them a villain for accusing the hero of being villainous.
"It's your fault the team didnt get to do the strategy that would create problems! Boo! I wanted my plan my way and you ruined it! QQ"
The blamers sound like babies.
My Biggest Lesson - th-cam.com/video/GqNcNtxHU6E/w-d-xo.html
Learning Lessons From Failure - th-cam.com/video/Kh5JMp5_5nQ/w-d-xo.html
Stories like these from industry veterans have become a kind of new mentorship. Listened to this twice but what I was more curious about was:
Were there any moments of major self reflection after a release, where you tried to tease apart what aspects of your directing style was ultimately a net benefit for the project vs what you resolved to change about your style going forward?
As with all arts, especially collaborative technical ones, maybe it's impossible to truly min max one's influence in the chaos - but I'm sure there's some valuable lessons we can take in.
As long as you don’t do anything to warrant evil karma or start constantly picking the jerk dialogue option, people will always see you as a treasure.
You're more driven and logical and less egotistical than most creatives, which is why those confrontations happen in similar ways in your history. It isn't a character flaw of yours, it's a lack of communication skills in the people you're working with.