No, just hold your breath, swim and strain, the smell of death, can't escape. Now you dodge, try to hide, heart beats faster from inside, thought it was a big charade, your life was ended by mermaid.
When life puts you up against overwhelming firepower, know what you have to do? Just keep spinning, Just keep spinning, Just keep spinning, Spinning, Spinning! What do we do? We spin, Spin!
(An aileron roll has you spin on-axis, whereas a barrel-roll has you take a helical path around a cylinder, like rolling around a barrel. The latter is most similar to the effects of rolling while activating lateral thrusters. ) (The "pilot" correcting the noob on the common mistake of calling an "aileron roll" a "barrel roll" is in fact incorrect, since the true meaning of "barrel roll" is actually the more accurate description of the maneuver being depicted.) #explainingthejoke
I mostly play PvE (with the PvE mods), and i like to make my ships wide and flat, and giving them some aquatic esthetics. With this style of play and ship design, my best ship is a small Frigate size ship in the style of a manta Rey, wide and flat, with loads of small forward thrusters, and a few large downward thrusters. Its jobb is mostly to chase down flying lootboxes and disable them so i can grab the goodies, so it has a lot of forward facing guns and a small forward profile. As well as be an armored umbrellas for when am building or mining, so its wide armored back works well for this. So all in all, i just wanted an excuse to brag about my cool ship.
I’m by note book I designed a ship that is similar with about a few level in height but is much larger in length. The front is ment to ram so a axe head design with a maw in the middle. It looks kinda wired and I would love to see what it looks like in SE. for utility it would have a rear oval witch is the utility area(lore wise that the reactor area away from the main living quarters) but my current computer can’t handle space engineers at its lowest settings.
Not disputing your statement ... However the spin to win is pvp 1v1 not whole fleets vs whole fleets. Maybe ... Just maybe there may be an application in starwars. Also bullets in SE are slow and ships move very slow.
The simplest solution -> override a bunch of thrusters and gyroscopes to automagically move in a corkscrew pattern. For convenience, keep the override under one key (timer block). When active, it will correct itself immediately after you finish your panic burn :-)
I just now realized that one single drive of the side thruster packs on Eternity is the chase profile of my ambush corvette. Without a doubt the Big E could carry it as a “fighter”, although it’d be more like the Donnager dropping frigates out of its midsection than anything
Would it make sense then to have a keybind where you can turn "off" a portion of your rear thruster bank so that you can get roughly equivalent thrust in all directions during combat maneuvers and then turn it back "on" again when you need to turn (tail) and burn?
Yes... relabel them as "Boosters" instead of thrusters. Then when you need to kick-in the boosters or booster groups you know exactly what you're doing.
Dead weight is bad. just get used to flying upwards (or have a second cockpit facing up for long distance travel). Down facing thrusters help in gravity too, and your downwards face often has the most surface area, so thruster banks are good, they should just be pointing down.
A good pvp ship should have 10% reverse, side to side, and down ward thrust with 30% upward and forward thrust. This way you can not only fiploop but you can jump forward and get the duck outa fodge if you have to.
That reminds me of the ESFs from Planetside 2. By holding down space, you can go upwards, and if you’re in hover mode, you can hold down the afterburner and space button to rapidly turn around a target or point. I can barely describe it in full detail, the air combat in PS2 was and is a high skill ceiling.
One way to make thruster banks work is to rebind one of the turning keys (arrow keys by default) to a mouse button or whatever is convenient to you. Of course this still has the downside of presenting a broadside instead of the front but you can absolutely dodge with no more effort than the regular spin to win method. If you have a very large ship there are even good arguments for broadsiding since you'll be fairly limited in the amount of weapons you can realistically put at the front.
In my experience, there's not too many things you can place behind the ship other than... yes, more thrusters! Unless you put the thruster cluster in the front/sides and get it shot down quicker, the rear is usually "Safer" as there's a natural arrow in your ship saying "this side point towards enemy" as you'll most definitely will have fixed forward weaponry. Other solution is, of course, having additional thruster clusters, or spread them all around the ship (backup forward thrust near the center of the ship, in case the cluster gets obliterated, but at that point you're still very screwed) >(And having ALL the thrusters in the cluster is also a bad idea btw, having one is an advantage, but can't rely solely on it) Oh, and did you know? using a downward thruster bank also helps getting into atmospheric combat.
Also, the dodging part is pretty related to aviation maneuvers, since one of primary ways to dodge a 12 o clock missile in a jet is to do a high-gee barrel roll when it is within 3-5s of impact. It just cant cope with all the turning. Of course, this wont probably be true for something like warthog or frogfoot but they have ECM to make up.
I do spin to win on Avorion it works really well especially with weapons that overheat and have a slow reload. Also having your weapons setup to auto fire various targets and target types with a few weapons on manual control. And I completely agree with the thurster arrangement as there is nothing worse than poorly laid thrusters on a ship that could be king of the kill that gets nailed everytime.
It's not just this, down thrusters help in gravity too so you should have thruster banks, they should just be all pointing down.. when you want to pursue or escape, get used to flying upwards.
I tend to build gondolas / thruster pods around the hull to space the thrusters out from one another. "Spin to win" is also mandatory for anything with fixed guns.
An interesting fix might be as follows. While I'm not 100% on the rules of thruster placement/amount, you could build the ship for PVP. Then add your dope looking thruster package on the back for esthetics. Then set up a control group for your back thrusters either disabling some or lowering max thrust to your desired values. Adding this to your numpad. Sort of a hot key to enable a condition red combat thrust. You could even take it further by adding several control groups for your thrusters to maximize maneuvering customization, but that's a high skill ceiling.
I know it's a different game but forward thrust is the core of my Star Citizen dog fighting technique. It's a lot easier since there's a simulated joystick control with the mouse but I think it could still be used in Space Engineers. The idea is that you engage you target by flying off to the side and then turn to face them and constantly accelerate forward. You can think of your forward thrust as gravity and the whole thing kinda becomes a planetary system where your opponent is the planet and you're the moon. In order to get closer you accelerate opposite the direction you're orbiting and in order to get further you accelerate in the direction you're orbiting. Higher forward acceleration means you orbit faster for a given distance but you have to make sure you're pitch or yaw can keep up. The fact that your enemy can move complicates the whole thing but the core concept still stands. It helps to have a high strafing thrust in at least the vertical or horizontal axis so you can react to the opponent.
Currently building my own ship generally I haven't begun on a large thruster bank due to spacing and design reasons but the thrusters are kinda of spread out currently slightly helps me cause it means I can put some light armor around said engine etc etc but yea enough about me this video has definitely brought slot of insight as well as the rest of your ship vids luv ya man hope your days go well
This is also a problem in from the depths, if you have all your propulsion at the back of your ship in a clump, they are very prone to all being shot off at once and you having no movement.
That is the different problem of a single enemy munition being able to take out the entire clump at once, whereas if they are spread out it only takes out some of them. FTD weapon damage areas relative to the size of FTD blocks is quite large compared to something like Space Engineers where weapons will often damage just one block and the blocks adjacent to it.
Different issue. This video is about dodging enemy fire and how focusing too much on forward thrust can negatively affect a vehicle's maneuverability. In FtD we're not working with the same kind of speed limit, and we've got rudders to help us point our noses in the right direction, so the "too much thrust"-situation isn't really a thing for us. Besides, SE weapons don't have quite the same blast effects as those in FtD, so big thrusterbanks like the ones people build in SE are less vulnerable than an equivalent cluster of propellers on the aft end of a boat in FtD.
@@gustaveliasson5395 That being said we do have the same issue of the AI not being able to predict constant acceleration in movement, and having planes that spin out of control being unreasonably hard to hit.
I think it is kinda lame that most ships reach the speed limit within a few seconds, and that space engineers doesn't handle very low amounts of thrust very accurately.
I think it is kinda lame that a lot of vehicles reach 100 km/h within few seconds. That car engineers doesn't handle very low amount of horse powers very accurately
Thruster banks are also useless because there is no thrust vectoring in SE (like there is on real spaceflight), and thrusters have zero thrust torque. You can only thrust up, down, left, right, forward or back, depending on where your thrusters are pointed. The thrusters on a thruster bank can't tilt to turn the ship, so if you are flying in a permanent barrel roll you need almost as much thrust going up or left/right as you need going forward. Another good tactic is the Expanse-style "flip and burn" which would give thruster banks an advantage, with a lot of gyros you can flip your ship around quickly and slam your forward thrusters to change direction almost instantaneously and get the jump on an enemy.
Feels like you have to balance the classic rocket design with most of your engines in one direction for long distance travel in one direction, with a sphere design for all direction manoeuvrability with as many engines pointing in every direction. So depending on how much one direction speed you need vs how much manoeuvrability or all direction speed you need you might need to make some kind of oval shaped craft. With more spheroid combat primary ships and elongated oval non-combat primary ships.
I think one of the most practical and cool-looking designs for Space Engineers would be a "Star Destroyer sandwhich." Basically, cut a star destroyer type design (angled, wedge shaped ship) in half. Make a flat ship that will fit in between the two halves, add spinal mount weaponry, hangars, external thrusters if required, armored central CIC, etc. Then, "sandwhich" it between the two angled halves of the original design. This gives you all of the advantages of a more standard "Flat" ship design (large front and sides for hangars, thrusters and spinal mount weaponry) and all of the benefits of a "Star Destroyer" type design (All turrets can hit a target directly in front of the ship, as the angled hull allows you to easily design superfiring turret positions, and shots may bounce off the angled armor),making for a truly mean and cool-looking PVP design.
Biggest issue I see is that the result of the sandwich would be very tall. meaning that the weapons that would be on the sides of the angled ships would be limited in their ability to fire to the side and down towards the center area of the ship. This creates a weak spot along the sides of the ship that if you got on close, then most if not all weaponry would be unable to hit you
@@nucleargandhi3759Tl; Dr, the flat section doesn't need to be super tall, you can put guns anywhere on a ship, and escort craft exist. I guess I didn't clarify that too well. The flat section would only be 2 decks (about 6-8 blocks tall) max, that's what I meant by flat. It gives more flexibility than having the ship just taper down to a point on all sides, while still taking advantage of a wedge-shaped design for the ease of incorporating superfiring turret layouts. While this would technically create a "dead zone" around the ship where not all turrets on the angled sections on a side can fire, the dead zone would be so close to the ship, probably 50 meters at most, that only hydromen and small strike craft would be agile enough to stay within it. Fortunately, even this possible design flaw could be solved simply by adding point defense and even standard turrets to the sides of the flat section. This problem could also be counteracted by having a light, agile strike craft, like a fighter, gunboat or skiff escort the main ship, either piloted by a friend or drone-controlled if scripts are enabled. Even if the "flat" section was tall enough to make the main battery less effective even at long range, this could simply be counteracted with spinal mount weaponry. If you have any questions, feel free to ask! Thanks for reading -118
I have two approaches to my designs in Space Engineers. One is the rocket approach, where I fly and fight almost like in the Expanse (except my designs predate the show and books). These ships are designed to land in gravity, vertically, like with the Thunderbirds. Naturally, they get a ton of thruster power in one direction, but also have high roll rates. My second approach is the starship method, with more directional thrust, and a roughly 2 to 1 ratio of forward thrust versus all other directions. Due to their mass, they don't roll well but can adjust their velocity better than the rockets, and fight in a manner similar to Battlestar Galactica.
I thought I was tripping when I heard the RimWorld music. I've been playing that game non-stop for the past few days, and this is the one day where I'm not currently playing it.
coming from a pvp only player since 2014 *taking some breaks for other games* i agree with some of this, but you need to be shutting off dampeners to maintain angles of velocity, keeping it off and using pulses in different directions to create that ellipse effect as you approach a vessel. it makes it very very difficult for the turrets to track you. it takes an insane amount of practice, but i've been doing this since descent freespace was a new disc. practice this technique by trying to orbit an asteroid, start slow and wide, then tighten it down as you gain confidence. soon you will be able to orbit something larger than yourself while pouring fire constantly into it.
I don't usually get into videos like this but watching the whole thing i felt like i was listening to something familiar, i myself find myself doing the spin to win but i do make up for going meta by putting my cockpit in awkward positions and making the ship look cool :D Anyways, if you wanna see how i did it my SKS raid video on my channel shows how i did that with smarter weaponcore weapons
Idk if Decoys work the same as they did in the past but I used to put them at the very back of my ships. It would cause guns to aim at my back and so long as I was only facing them with my side and moving at a broadside angle they'd always shoot where I last was unless someone took manual control.
I think that thruster pods would make better redundancies for a ship. It's a rather gaudy idea to visualize, I know. If you need redundant thruster pods, you won't be resting your eggs in one nest. Additionally, the pods can be used to hold double armor panel sheets connected at multiple points using interior pillars.
At 2:44 Delta-V is potential change in speed of a vehicle in 0-g environment. Simply, if you are at 0 m/s and thrust forward it is how fast you will be going when ure out of fuel. You prolly need TWR or Thrust-to-Weight Ratio. In your own words, sorry for pedancy 😂
I design special ships for situations. Bombing an enemy base? Easy put 34 artillery cannons on your broadside and sit 1.8-2km above them and just wreck them, battling people in space? Easy, artillery and assault turrets scattered all over the ship with missile turrets in the mix then simply turn and burn (spin to win). Got some slightly experienced mates on a server with just me and them, started on separate planets in teams of three, with a maximum of three teams. Me and my team used my strategies and they really didn’t stand a chance, the enemies used some halo ahh strategy attacking head on in a straight line with rail guns and artillery strapped haphazardly to the front of their ship with minimal defences.
Looks like the cockscrew maneuver or the draged spiral is the basic best dodge combat maneuver for nearly any space sim game =) I have used it in nearly every single space game.
I only just got into space engineers after messing with it for a couple years before promptly abandoning it. Just the footage alone makes me glad I play singleplayer. What the frick that looks terrifying
Though a human gunner would know to lead semi accordingly on a target flying in a loop. I assume that turrets in a future update or in a script could become able to accurately track targets just moving in a loop.
In the year since I got I have never used thruster banks. Everything is just tacked on as needed. My designs are the ugliest scrap piles you can lay your eyes upon, but they serve their intended purpose really well. The miners always looks like a literal drill with a wide head being somewhere between 9square and 25 square large drills in a square pyramid shape on a needle thin body.
Lol, it's funny because i've always built ships for the Spin-to-Win meta. Most of your thrust is for moving Foward and Up. If you need to turn, bank exactly like an Airplane. Having minimal thrust in the other 4 directions is just for stabalization. I call it the Star Wars philosophy because It's the same way Star Wars ships are made in lore, and why they fly like atmospheric planes. They have normal Thrusters in the back and Gravity-Based Thrusters underneath the ship. I started using this design for my Space Racers because i realized they could manuever around a Track fast enough, and the reduced weight made them Accelerate faster. Then i used it for Fighters and realized that i was nearly un-hitable. Then i realized that the concept wasn't just for small ships. They are the only important Thrusters for 90% of ships, drastically reducing the Tonnage of all my ships.
Y'know, you seem like the type of dude who''d enjoy some of the high level PVP we've got going on in Starcore. I'd say that some of the best pilots in the community hang out there, and you could learn a thing or two.
in my opinion the whole speed limit needs an overhaul. i think there shouldnt be an general speed limit but an thruster based one, where certain thrusters are faster at reaching thier limit but have a lower limit and others have a higher limit but are far slower, and as for missiles theier speed should increase for a certain amount of time. fixing probably a lot of speed related problems SE has. but hey im not an game developer so what should i know.
I haven’t made my big combat ship yet in my survival world but I have a big ship to land on earth and they moon with 4 big ass hydrogen thrusters and a shit ton of gyros. It’s so much damn fun to have the big rear truster bank and do some “turning and burning” like in the expanse. I’ve done it a couple of times to avoid pirates and it would be fun in a PVP battle I think
Wouldnt the best of both worlds be to have parts of your thruster bank on a on/off switch on your hotbar, so you can get the ideal speed for evasive or pursuit manoeuvres.
You missed the part where if you have sci-fi levels of thrust/efficiency for ssto and you want to vtol, up is where you're going to want your main thrust anyways. Not to mention, the ventral face is probably where you have the most area available for thrusters, assuming length and height are the major and minor axes. Which they should be, intermediate axis instability makes the ol' pitch and roll nice and snappy (Basically, if your first ship looked like a brick you had good intuition for function if not form.) Finally you missed the obvious, which is that excessive forward-thrust is simply extra weight, you only need a little to cancel the net negative you get from holding space and sliding around the *funnel* of doom. You get better performance in the cone with less dead weight, better performance = closer standoff distance = better accuracy for your own guns. Other than that, this video is almost word for word a comment I've been leaving around the internets for years now.
see the way I fix this is i set up all my servers without a speed limit and duke it out semi-expanse style :D it forces everyone to redesign their ships and really makes things interesting as now there are fundamentally different playstyles for different engagement ranges.
They way they should change velocity in SE to make it a bit more balanced it change the speed limit to adapt to how much maximum thrust you get, exponentially getting weaker above the speed limit so it is hard to make a ship with a speed advantage over other ships per direction of thrust to weight ratio (so there would be 6 in SE). This would basically make it so if you have a thruster bank, that is good for long distance travel at great speed, but at the sacrifice of barrel rolls (spin to win). If you have 4 side to side thruster banks, like a fighter would have, then you have high maneuverability, can dodge turret fire easily, but have been capped by how fast forward you can really move, as well as side to side, since it is more even and not one sided. Transport Vehicles or thruster banks would be really fast in a straight line, while fighters would be slightly slower but more maneuverable, so thruster banks would still be used to maintain rule of cool while also allowing more balance for PVP. Also limiting the greatest vector rather than the smallest one would help too (if that is how SE fixes it). Thruster banks could still be used in PVP, but then you would need to maneuver with your mouse or tapping which makes it harder to do, so it isn't too one sided either.
Is there left over inertia to drift to target? Is there gravity for celestial bodies to slingshot around? How about towing an asteroid to create a boi or space station around?
I dunno about anyone else but I personally hate like more than 90% of the star wars designs despite loving the series so I try to build as many halo ship as possible as I love them way more which is why I majorly respect the halcyon ship you've got there
On Xbox it’s a lot harder to roll and do other forms of movement at the same time. The easiest way for me to dodge is go up and left or right while keeping my target in sight
I'm not an expert, but I'm curious Would putting the majority of your forward thrusters into a group to toggle on and off help with this issue? Since you can switch off the excess thrusters while in combat you can execute the spin to win without worrying about overpowering your turn, then switch back to full forward thrust when needed
Logical conclusion.. In 1v1, both roll without forward movement forever. Both waste munitions forever. Whoever starts advancing takes damage and loses. However once two ships are locked in a rolling match, a third ship can snipe them from another angle. Another interesting effect is doing a barrrel roll to slow down.. Wipe off most of your forward speed by rolling.
Gonna be a massive nerd but it’s thrust to weight ratio to doge missiles. Delta v is usually used to calculate a rockets range such as to low earth orbit.
why not make a donut shaped ship? if you move a few meters the missiles will either miss you or go through the hole. it depends on where the missiles aim though, like if they aim for the centre of mass they’d miss you every time.
because of the cloud of missile issue. In practice you have many turrets targeted you at the same time. but firing at different times with a cone of fire. So in practice it makes sense to have the smallest profile presented to your enemy.
![MAC/Railguns Suck [Space Engineers]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ovAiAlGGQus/mqdefault.jpg)
Wait, you're meant to DODGE incoming fire?!?!!? I've been doing it wrong this whole time...
Capac moment
"DOOOOOOOODGE!!!" ~ Piccolo, DBZ Abridged
No, just hold your breath, swim and strain, the smell of death, can't escape. Now you dodge, try to hide, heart beats faster from inside, thought it was a big charade, your life was ended by mermaid.
With enough armour you can simply ignore them
When life puts you up against overwhelming firepower, know what you have to do?
Just keep spinning,
Just keep spinning,
Just keep spinning,
Spinning,
Spinning!
What do we do?
We spin,
Spin!
spin to win.
SE pvp 101
Ill try spinning thats a good trick!
As limp bizkit once said rollin rollin rollin!
@@matthewbeddall7182Burn your house down-- with the LEMONZ!!!
Unless it's a huge AI-powered torpedo with a bunch of warheads aboard. Then you're fucked.
Noob: Do a barrel roll!
Pilot: Um _actually_ that's called an "aileron roll"
Pro: Do a BARREL roll!
Do a barrel roll fox.
It’s still called a barrel roll
(An aileron roll has you spin on-axis, whereas a barrel-roll has you take a helical path around a cylinder, like rolling around a barrel. The latter is most similar to the effects of rolling while activating lateral thrusters. )
(The "pilot" correcting the noob on the common mistake of calling an "aileron roll" a "barrel roll" is in fact incorrect, since the true meaning of "barrel roll" is actually the more accurate description of the maneuver being depicted.)
#explainingthejoke
@@HansLemurson never said I was a pilot first off but second off a barrel roll is pretty much the same thing
But they aren't. The only thing in common is spinning.
I mostly play PvE (with the PvE mods), and i like to make my ships wide and flat, and giving them some aquatic esthetics.
With this style of play and ship design, my best ship is a small Frigate size ship in the style of a manta Rey, wide and flat, with loads of small forward thrusters, and a few large downward thrusters. Its jobb is mostly to chase down flying lootboxes and disable them so i can grab the goodies, so it has a lot of forward facing guns and a small forward profile. As well as be an armored umbrellas for when am building or mining, so its wide armored back works well for this.
So all in all, i just wanted an excuse to brag about my cool ship.
If you're going to brag.
At least give us the link so we can see it for our self
@@sethgilcrist8088 can i even link in YT?
@@Fixti0n f&$k around and find out!
I’m by note book I designed a ship that is similar with about a few level in height but is much larger in length. The front is ment to ram so a axe head design with a maw in the middle. It looks kinda wired and I would love to see what it looks like in SE. for utility it would have a rear oval witch is the utility area(lore wise that the reactor area away from the main living quarters) but my current computer can’t handle space engineers at its lowest settings.
@@spacetechempire510 I hear you.
I had space engineers for six years before I had a computer that could run it.
On it's lowest settings
POV: Man explains why building the rebel blockade runner isn’t necessary or logical.
It looks so good thiugu
GO AWAY BLUE. BACK TO THE OTHER CHANNEL
Fine..
The rebel blockade would get destroyed
Not disputing your statement ... However the spin to win is pvp 1v1 not whole fleets vs whole fleets. Maybe ... Just maybe there may be an application in starwars. Also bullets in SE are slow and ships move very slow.
It feels so weird to be looking at Space Engineers but hearing the Rimworld music.
yeah, same xD
I KNEW it was the Rimworld music! Yeah it is kind of weird.
That's what it is! It was so familiar
I had to look and see if I left the game open...
The simplest solution -> override a bunch of thrusters and gyroscopes to automagically move in a corkscrew pattern. For convenience, keep the override under one key (timer block). When active, it will correct itself immediately after you finish your panic burn :-)
I got so confused since I had rimworld open in background, but muted. And then I clicked this and its suddenly rimworld soundtrack.
you cant escape
@@GetBrocked Neither could those raiders after I lured them into lava tunnel and shut the doors.
I just now realized that one single drive of the side thruster packs on Eternity is the chase profile of my ambush corvette.
Without a doubt the Big E could carry it as a “fighter”, although it’d be more like the Donnager dropping frigates out of its midsection than anything
Would it make sense then to have a keybind where you can turn "off" a portion of your rear thruster bank so that you can get roughly equivalent thrust in all directions during combat maneuvers and then turn it back "on" again when you need to turn (tail) and burn?
The only bad part is that some of the time you have "dead weight" thrusters
I do this with my miners, because I don't want to full burn into a wall even with drills, and I don't want to crawl up to transit speed.
Yes... relabel them as "Boosters" instead of thrusters. Then when you need to kick-in the boosters or booster groups you know exactly what you're doing.
Maybe put a blast door over the boosters to help mitigate their big giant target-ness
Dead weight is bad. just get used to flying upwards (or have a second cockpit facing up for long distance travel). Down facing thrusters help in gravity too, and your downwards face often has the most surface area, so thruster banks are good, they should just be pointing down.
A good pvp ship should have 10% reverse, side to side, and down ward thrust with 30% upward and forward thrust. This way you can not only fiploop but you can jump forward and get the duck outa fodge if you have to.
That reminds me of the ESFs from Planetside 2. By holding down space, you can go upwards, and if you’re in hover mode, you can hold down the afterburner and space button to rapidly turn around a target or point. I can barely describe it in full detail, the air combat in PS2 was and is a high skill ceiling.
One way to make thruster banks work is to rebind one of the turning keys (arrow keys by default) to a mouse button or whatever is convenient to you. Of course this still has the downside of presenting a broadside instead of the front but you can absolutely dodge with no more effort than the regular spin to win method. If you have a very large ship there are even good arguments for broadsiding since you'll be fairly limited in the amount of weapons you can realistically put at the front.
In my experience, there's not too many things you can place behind the ship other than... yes, more thrusters!
Unless you put the thruster cluster in the front/sides and get it shot down quicker, the rear is usually "Safer" as there's a natural arrow in your ship saying "this side point towards enemy" as you'll most definitely will have fixed forward weaponry.
Other solution is, of course, having additional thruster clusters, or spread them all around the ship (backup forward thrust near the center of the ship, in case the cluster gets obliterated, but at that point you're still very screwed)
>(And having ALL the thrusters in the cluster is also a bad idea btw, having one is an advantage, but can't rely solely on it)
Oh, and did you know? using a downward thruster bank also helps getting into atmospheric combat.
"I'll try spinning, that's a good trick" lol
I am loving your content so far man , keep up the good work !!
On smaller ships or a ship with lots of gyros it makes more since as you can do a flip and burn maneuver.
One reason I like smaller fighters.
Also, the dodging part is pretty related to aviation maneuvers, since one of primary ways to dodge a 12 o clock missile in a jet is to do a high-gee barrel roll when it is within 3-5s of impact. It just cant cope with all the turning. Of course, this wont probably be true for something like warthog or frogfoot but they have ECM to make up.
I do spin to win on Avorion it works really well especially with weapons that overheat and have a slow reload. Also having your weapons setup to auto fire various targets and target types with a few weapons on manual control. And I completely agree with the thurster arrangement as there is nothing worse than poorly laid thrusters on a ship that could be king of the kill that gets nailed everytime.
It's not just this, down thrusters help in gravity too so you should have thruster banks, they should just be all pointing down.. when you want to pursue or escape, get used to flying upwards.
I tend to build gondolas / thruster pods around the hull to space the thrusters out from one another.
"Spin to win" is also mandatory for anything with fixed guns.
The Rimworld music really fits nicely. Rimworld is such a good fucking game.
Came for the rimworld music, ended up learning some shit about missiles.
An interesting fix might be as follows.
While I'm not 100% on the rules of thruster placement/amount, you could build the ship for PVP. Then add your dope looking thruster package on the back for esthetics.
Then set up a control group for your back thrusters either disabling some or lowering max thrust to your desired values. Adding this to your numpad. Sort of a hot key to enable a condition red combat thrust.
You could even take it further by adding several control groups for your thrusters to maximize maneuvering customization, but that's a high skill ceiling.
I know it's a different game but forward thrust is the core of my Star Citizen dog fighting technique. It's a lot easier since there's a simulated joystick control with the mouse but I think it could still be used in Space Engineers. The idea is that you engage you target by flying off to the side and then turn to face them and constantly accelerate forward. You can think of your forward thrust as gravity and the whole thing kinda becomes a planetary system where your opponent is the planet and you're the moon. In order to get closer you accelerate opposite the direction you're orbiting and in order to get further you accelerate in the direction you're orbiting. Higher forward acceleration means you orbit faster for a given distance but you have to make sure you're pitch or yaw can keep up. The fact that your enemy can move complicates the whole thing but the core concept still stands. It helps to have a high strafing thrust in at least the vertical or horizontal axis so you can react to the opponent.
This was of greater use than you imagine. Very informative
Currently building my own ship generally I haven't begun on a large thruster bank due to spacing and design reasons but the thrusters are kinda of spread out currently slightly helps me cause it means I can put some light armor around said engine etc etc but yea enough about me this video has definitely brought slot of insight as well as the rest of your ship vids luv ya man hope your days go well
Queue the next: The missile knows where it is because it knows where it isn't
This is also a problem in from the depths, if you have all your propulsion at the back of your ship in a clump, they are very prone to all being shot off at once and you having no movement.
That is the different problem of a single enemy munition being able to take out the entire clump at once, whereas if they are spread out it only takes out some of them. FTD weapon damage areas relative to the size of FTD blocks is quite large compared to something like Space Engineers where weapons will often damage just one block and the blocks adjacent to it.
Different issue.
This video is about dodging enemy fire and how focusing too much on forward thrust can negatively affect a vehicle's maneuverability.
In FtD we're not working with the same kind of speed limit, and we've got rudders to help us point our noses in the right direction, so the "too much thrust"-situation isn't really a thing for us.
Besides, SE weapons don't have quite the same blast effects as those in FtD, so big thrusterbanks like the ones people build in SE are less vulnerable than an equivalent cluster of propellers on the aft end of a boat in FtD.
@@gustaveliasson5395 That being said we do have the same issue of the AI not being able to predict constant acceleration in movement, and having planes that spin out of control being unreasonably hard to hit.
FTD??
@@sethgilcrist8088 I am seeing it mentioned more frequently in comments these days.
I play both SE and Rimworld and I wasn't expecting rimworld music but either way, I approve.
I think it is kinda lame that most ships reach the speed limit within a few seconds, and that space engineers doesn't handle very low amounts of thrust very accurately.
I think it is kinda lame that a lot of vehicles reach 100 km/h within few seconds. That car engineers doesn't handle very low amount of horse powers very accurately
Nice Rimworld music in the background at the beginning there. I absolutely love that track.
Thruster banks are also useless because there is no thrust vectoring in SE (like there is on real spaceflight), and thrusters have zero thrust torque. You can only thrust up, down, left, right, forward or back, depending on where your thrusters are pointed. The thrusters on a thruster bank can't tilt to turn the ship, so if you are flying in a permanent barrel roll you need almost as much thrust going up or left/right as you need going forward.
Another good tactic is the Expanse-style "flip and burn" which would give thruster banks an advantage, with a lot of gyros you can flip your ship around quickly and slam your forward thrusters to change direction almost instantaneously and get the jump on an enemy.
Feels like you have to balance the classic rocket design with most of your engines in one direction for long distance travel in one direction, with a sphere design for all direction manoeuvrability with as many engines pointing in every direction. So depending on how much one direction speed you need vs how much manoeuvrability or all direction speed you need you might need to make some kind of oval shaped craft. With more spheroid combat primary ships and elongated oval non-combat primary ships.
“ the Autumn, she’s been hit!”
I think one of the most practical and cool-looking designs for Space Engineers would be a "Star Destroyer sandwhich." Basically, cut a star destroyer type design (angled, wedge shaped ship) in half. Make a flat ship that will fit in between the two halves, add spinal mount weaponry, hangars, external thrusters if required, armored central CIC, etc. Then, "sandwhich" it between the two angled halves of the original design.
This gives you all of the advantages of a more standard "Flat" ship design (large front and sides for hangars, thrusters and spinal mount weaponry) and all of the benefits of a "Star Destroyer" type design (All turrets can hit a target directly in front of the ship, as the angled hull allows you to easily design superfiring turret positions, and shots may bounce off the angled armor),making for a truly mean and cool-looking PVP design.
Biggest issue I see is that the result of the sandwich would be very tall. meaning that the weapons that would be on the sides of the angled ships would be limited in their ability to fire to the side and down towards the center area of the ship. This creates a weak spot along the sides of the ship that if you got on close, then most if not all weaponry would be unable to hit you
@@nucleargandhi3759Tl; Dr, the flat section doesn't need to be super tall, you can put guns anywhere on a ship, and escort craft exist.
I guess I didn't clarify that too well. The flat section would only be 2 decks (about 6-8 blocks tall) max, that's what I meant by flat. It gives more flexibility than having the ship just taper down to a point on all sides, while still taking advantage of a wedge-shaped design for the ease of incorporating superfiring turret layouts. While this would technically create a "dead zone" around the ship where not all turrets on the angled sections on a side can fire, the dead zone would be so close to the ship, probably 50 meters at most, that only hydromen and small strike craft would be agile enough to stay within it. Fortunately, even this possible design flaw could be solved simply by adding point defense and even standard turrets to the sides of the flat section. This problem could also be counteracted by having a light, agile strike craft, like a fighter, gunboat or skiff escort the main ship, either piloted by a friend or drone-controlled if scripts are enabled. Even if the "flat" section was tall enough to make the main battery less effective even at long range, this could simply be counteracted with spinal mount weaponry.
If you have any questions, feel free to ask! Thanks for reading
-118
_"You spin me right 'round, baby, right 'round"_
I have two approaches to my designs in Space Engineers. One is the rocket approach, where I fly and fight almost like in the Expanse (except my designs predate the show and books). These ships are designed to land in gravity, vertically, like with the Thunderbirds. Naturally, they get a ton of thruster power in one direction, but also have high roll rates. My second approach is the starship method, with more directional thrust, and a roughly 2 to 1 ratio of forward thrust versus all other directions. Due to their mass, they don't roll well but can adjust their velocity better than the rockets, and fight in a manner similar to Battlestar Galactica.
I'll try spinning. That's a good trick.
I thought I was tripping when I heard the RimWorld music. I've been playing that game non-stop for the past few days, and this is the one day where I'm not currently playing it.
I loved the background music. Great taste you have. Long live rimworld
Something Brock didnt mention, this exact maneuver works aswell in other games. Spin to win make it a corkscrew!
coming from a pvp only player since 2014 *taking some breaks for other games* i agree with some of this, but you need to be shutting off dampeners to maintain angles of velocity, keeping it off and using pulses in different directions to create that ellipse effect as you approach a vessel. it makes it very very difficult for the turrets to track you. it takes an insane amount of practice, but i've been doing this since descent freespace was a new disc. practice this technique by trying to orbit an asteroid, start slow and wide, then tighten it down as you gain confidence. soon you will be able to orbit something larger than yourself while pouring fire constantly into it.
I don't usually get into videos like this but watching the whole thing i felt like i was listening to something familiar, i myself find myself doing the spin to win but i do make up for going meta by putting my cockpit in awkward positions and making the ship look cool :D Anyways, if you wanna see how i did it my SKS raid video on my channel shows how i did that with smarter weaponcore weapons
Idk if Decoys work the same as they did in the past but I used to put them at the very back of my ships. It would cause guns to aim at my back and so long as I was only facing them with my side and moving at a broadside angle they'd always shoot where I last was unless someone took manual control.
I think that thruster pods would make better redundancies for a ship.
It's a rather gaudy idea to visualize, I know. If you need redundant thruster pods, you won't be resting your eggs in one nest. Additionally, the pods can be used to hold double armor panel sheets connected at multiple points using interior pillars.
Nice Rimworld music in the background.
i was literally about to say that
and i was also playing the game at that second
At 2:44
Delta-V is potential change in speed of a vehicle in 0-g environment. Simply, if you are at 0 m/s and thrust forward it is how fast you will be going when ure out of fuel.
You prolly need TWR or Thrust-to-Weight Ratio.
In your own words, sorry for pedancy 😂
Makes sense, you could build a very efficient but low acceleration ship, but it wouldn't dodge very well.
isn't the irl speed limit the speed of light or was I too tuned out during my school years
I design special ships for situations. Bombing an enemy base? Easy put 34 artillery cannons on your broadside and sit 1.8-2km above them and just wreck them, battling people in space? Easy, artillery and assault turrets scattered all over the ship with missile turrets in the mix then simply turn and burn (spin to win). Got some slightly experienced mates on a server with just me and them, started on separate planets in teams of three, with a maximum of three teams. Me and my team used my strategies and they really didn’t stand a chance, the enemies used some halo ahh strategy attacking head on in a straight line with rail guns and artillery strapped haphazardly to the front of their ship with minimal defences.
Looks like the cockscrew maneuver or the draged spiral is the basic best dodge combat maneuver for nearly any space sim game =) I have used it in nearly every single space game.
anyone else find themselves laughing at the "actually this would explain why a lot people don't dodge them" remark?
as a nihilist, absolutely
I only just got into space engineers after messing with it for a couple years before promptly abandoning it. Just the footage alone makes me glad I play singleplayer. What the frick that looks terrifying
Me here just trying to make a hauler that can go atmo to space without to large a profile
Though a human gunner would know to lead semi accordingly on a target flying in a loop. I assume that turrets in a future update or in a script could become able to accurately track targets just moving in a loop.
sure, but you will always have secondaries. and at 1500m human gunners frankly, suck
@@GetBrocked true
The in house mod developed for the server we play on had a prediction script for targeting, but as far as I’m concerned, it’s technomagic.
At 600m with a moving target.. sincerely, turrets have way better aim than me using the fixed weapons or even controlling a turret.
In the year since I got I have never used thruster banks. Everything is just tacked on as needed.
My designs are the ugliest scrap piles you can lay your eyes upon, but they serve their intended purpose really well.
The miners always looks like a literal drill with a wide head being somewhere between 9square and 25 square large drills in a square pyramid shape on a needle thin body.
wow, i was checking if i accidently started Rim world when i heard the background music
Great info and very well explained. There are a lot of newer players who I will show this and no doubt it will help them.
one thing you could do is group some of the thrusters and put an on/off for them in ur hotbar for these situations
I've never heard of Spin to Win. We always called it Turn and Burn.
Lol, it's funny because i've always built ships for the Spin-to-Win meta.
Most of your thrust is for moving Foward and Up. If you need to turn, bank exactly like an Airplane. Having minimal thrust in the other 4 directions is just for stabalization.
I call it the Star Wars philosophy because It's the same way Star Wars ships are made in lore, and why they fly like atmospheric planes. They have normal Thrusters in the back and Gravity-Based Thrusters underneath the ship.
I started using this design for my Space Racers because i realized they could manuever around a Track fast enough, and the reduced weight made them Accelerate faster.
Then i used it for Fighters and realized that i was nearly un-hitable.
Then i realized that the concept wasn't just for small ships. They are the only important Thrusters for 90% of ships, drastically reducing the Tonnage of all my ships.
Y'know, you seem like the type of dude who''d enjoy some of the high level PVP we've got going on in Starcore.
I'd say that some of the best pilots in the community hang out there, and you could learn a thing or two.
I don't think people really increase the speed cap to outrun missiles, I just do it so that I can actually go places without a jump drive
Hey Brass Facts! It's nice you also have an interest in videogames.
The first time I saw a video on this channel I immediately recognized your voice.
in my opinion the whole speed limit needs an overhaul.
i think there shouldnt be an general speed limit but an thruster based one, where certain thrusters are faster at reaching thier limit but have a lower limit and others have a higher limit but are far slower, and as for missiles theier speed should increase for a certain amount of time. fixing probably a lot of speed related problems SE has.
but hey im not an game developer so what should i know.
keen gonna keen
tbh though, it's probably something I'd rather they not touch until other issues are fixed.
@@GetBrocked thats true, SE has a lot of issues. But i think they might fix them somewhere allong the line
The reason for the speed limit is a hard cap in the game engine iirc, if you go any faster it breaks the game, not to mention tanks server performance
@@sultanofswag8901 that would depend on how they would tackle it though
10 seconds in the video ..... thats the rimworld soundtrack in the back xD nice
Loving the content you are putting out!
Have a great day
I don't typically use thruster banks. If you play with a reaction control mod or thruster torque mod it really changes how you build
I haven’t made my big combat ship yet in my survival world but I have a big ship to land on earth and they moon with 4 big ass hydrogen thrusters and a shit ton of gyros. It’s so much damn fun to have the big rear truster bank and do some “turning and burning” like in the expanse. I’ve done it a couple of times to avoid pirates and it would be fun in a PVP battle I think
I happen to like long vids.
Also I love these videos they are super helpful for designing ships
Wouldnt the best of both worlds be to have parts of your thruster bank on a on/off switch on your hotbar, so you can get the ideal speed for evasive or pursuit manoeuvres.
You missed the part where if you have sci-fi levels of thrust/efficiency for ssto and you want to vtol, up is where you're going to want your main thrust anyways. Not to mention, the ventral face is probably where you have the most area available for thrusters, assuming length and height are the major and minor axes. Which they should be, intermediate axis instability makes the ol' pitch and roll nice and snappy (Basically, if your first ship looked like a brick you had good intuition for function if not form.) Finally you missed the obvious, which is that excessive forward-thrust is simply extra weight, you only need a little to cancel the net negative you get from holding space and sliding around the *funnel* of doom. You get better performance in the cone with less dead weight, better performance = closer standoff distance = better accuracy for your own guns.
Other than that, this video is almost word for word a comment I've been leaving around the internets for years now.
I, genuinely didn't realise half that but yeh, that makes sense
probably part of the reason why the KE were so strong. Most of this was based off of what I learned off of observing them
"unlike real life, space engineers has a speed limit." wait a minute.... was I lied to about the speed of light. :P
*Notices the music in the background* - wait, that's Rimworld :D
I always play with the speed of light as my velocity limit on a robust server or somewhere around 500 on less robust servers.
So what you're saying is, you should try spinning -- spinning *is* a good trick.
Simple counter, design torpedo's that lock onto an enemy vessel and follow it.
see the way I fix this is i set up all my servers without a speed limit and duke it out semi-expanse style :D it forces everyone to redesign their ships and really makes things interesting as now there are fundamentally different playstyles for different engagement ranges.
Thumbs up for the Rimworld music.
They way they should change velocity in SE to make it a bit more balanced it change the speed limit to adapt to how much maximum thrust you get, exponentially getting weaker above the speed limit so it is hard to make a ship with a speed advantage over other ships per direction of thrust to weight ratio (so there would be 6 in SE).
This would basically make it so if you have a thruster bank, that is good for long distance travel at great speed, but at the sacrifice of barrel rolls (spin to win). If you have 4 side to side thruster banks, like a fighter would have, then you have high maneuverability, can dodge turret fire easily, but have been capped by how fast forward you can really move, as well as side to side, since it is more even and not one sided.
Transport Vehicles or thruster banks would be really fast in a straight line, while fighters would be slightly slower but more maneuverable, so thruster banks would still be used to maintain rule of cool while also allowing more balance for PVP. Also limiting the greatest vector rather than the smallest one would help too (if that is how SE fixes it). Thruster banks could still be used in PVP, but then you would need to maneuver with your mouse or tapping which makes it harder to do, so it isn't too one sided either.
After watching this video, I promise the first thing imma do in space engineers is take advantage of it.
I literally just watched an 11 minute video of someone explaining "Do a barrel roll".
yes, but if I told the audience "do a barrel roll" it'd be boring; and no one would bother.
Convincing someone of something takes time and reasoning.
Love the RimWorld music
Is there left over inertia to drift to target? Is there gravity for celestial bodies to slingshot around? How about towing an asteroid to create a boi or space station around?
Old vid but maybe next time describe the movement as a barrel roll or a screw like movement, if I've understood the theory correctly?
good way explaning! thanks :)
I dunno about anyone else but I personally hate like more than 90% of the star wars designs despite loving the series so I try to build as many halo ship as possible as I love them way more which is why I majorly respect the halcyon ship you've got there
+1 for rimworld music
Rimworld ost is the best
On Xbox it’s a lot harder to roll and do other forms of movement at the same time. The easiest way for me to dodge is go up and left or right while keeping my target in sight
I'm not an expert, but I'm curious
Would putting the majority of your forward thrusters into a group to toggle on and off help with this issue? Since you can switch off the excess thrusters while in combat you can execute the spin to win without worrying about overpowering your turn, then switch back to full forward thrust when needed
Spinning is not flying.
but it's a neat trick.
also what you are describing is often called a barrel roll.
yeah, spin to win on earth usually refers to a allerion roll. Barrel role would be more accurate.
But spin to win sounds way funnier.
@@GetBrocked if you want to get very technical, the dog fighting term is rolling scissors as 2 craft jockey for positions to end or escape the other.
Any tips for making a vtol ship, and would it actually function in space engineers if all your thrust rotates away from the downward direction?
If you ever wanted to throw a wrench in that you should consider using weapons core, it has actual homing missiles.
for sure, homing missiles would change a lot of this. I actually mentioned it, but then cut it out
Ya but then that would totally nullify the point of small, fast ships
@@catzilla9330 Point defenses
@@nilloc93 then where is the skill in flying come in
@@catzilla9330 You think that homing missiles and PD removes flying skill?
The skill in flying comes in when you're flying the ship.
I wonder if you could use an analog keyboard and controller inputs to achieve variable thrust rather than on/off...
TL;DR
Your forward thrust cancels out your horizontal movement meaning you just spin in place while going forward instead of actually dodging.
Logical conclusion.. In 1v1, both roll without forward movement forever.
Both waste munitions forever.
Whoever starts advancing takes damage and loses.
However once two ships are locked in a rolling match, a third ship can snipe them from another angle.
Another interesting effect is doing a barrrel roll to slow down.. Wipe off most of your forward speed by rolling.
I thought I was imagining the rimworld music for a second
Gonna be a massive nerd but it’s thrust to weight ratio to doge missiles. Delta v is usually used to calculate a rockets range such as to low earth orbit.
why not make a donut shaped ship? if you move a few meters the missiles will either miss you or go through the hole. it depends on where the missiles aim though, like if they aim for the centre of mass they’d miss you every time.
because of the cloud of missile issue. In practice you have many turrets targeted you at the same time. but firing at different times with a cone of fire.
So in practice it makes sense to have the smallest profile presented to your enemy.
i have no memory of this and that makes a lot of sense
I'm pretty sure the speed of light is the real world speed limit, not taking into account material stress or human limitations.