Chain tight spots - but why?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 พ.ค. 2019
- In this video (part 1) we look at why chains have tight spots - what the cause????
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I've been riding bikes for 40 years and I always thought the tight spot was the chain, thank you for this you learn something new every day.
I always used to think it was something to do with how you accelerate and certain links of a chain had more torque applied to them more often than other links..... This makes much more sense
Im so happy. I kind of new it was the problem. But to finally find someone to confirm it made me feel great. Revzilla didn’t mention anything you did good sir. Thank for your service 🤘
Finally. At long, long last - a proper, accurate diagnosis of uneven chain tension. It's commonly assumed that chains stretch unevenly as they wear - and this is true. However, the question of whether this is the primary cause of uneven tension along a chain's run is another issue entirely. I just fitted a (genuine) DID x-ring chain and decent sprockets to my bike and immediately noticed a quite significant degree of uneven tension. I was surprised and a bit fucked off, tbh. My mate explained what you're talking about here, Matt. Put simply, there's an eccentricity elsewhere in the drive - probably from one or both of the sprockets. In any case, I did wonder how many people have prematurely and needlessly replaced both chain and sprockets believing that, because of unevenness of chain play, their chain is overly worn.
Regarding a "cure" it's been said elsewhere that simply slackening off the sprocket bolts and re-tightening carefully, slowly and in a star pattern can create a much more even run of play along the chain. This makes me wonder if, when chains are replaced by guys w/ compressed air tools, they're not always tightened up as carefully as they perhaps should be.
Do you mean re tightening the sprocket while it's on the bike or take the wheel off? In the mounted situation I'd expect it to simply go off center towards the sprocket again due to the chain pulling it there.
@@HardwareG33k maybe go to the point that it is at its tights and tighten the bolts not saying it will work just saying
@Kev B This method works. Basically, it's necessary to slacken all the nuts off (six on my bike) and retighten them again gradually and in a star pattern. Providing the chain isn't overly worn, I'm now confident that doing this will improve if not cure uneven tension along the run of a chain. Me and my mate did this earlier today and the results were obvious and no less welcome.
@@Unfunny_Username_389 I did this today to try and cure this issue. My shifting isnt great. I believe the chain is too slack. But it has to be too slack along some of it to accommodate the tightest spots. I took my sprocket off, cleaned all the mating surfaces and tried to put it back as centrally as possible. Yet I still have the issue. Whats the next step ? Chain and sprocket have 4k on them.
What you say about sproket wear makes perfect sense. I often thought how can a chain wear unevenly, as one point , pin, roller, plate, etc.. is used as much as another and so should wear evenly, so why do you get high and slack spots other than an eccentric sprocket(s)? This also explains why you dont always find the tight spot in the same point of chain rotation as the smaller sprocket has worn too, and as they're both a different number of teeth and diameter they won't match at the same point on each rotation of the chain very often! (Hope that made sense!) and then there are those Pesky manufacturing tolerances and even "High end", more expensive sprockets, are not as close or as accurate a fitting to the carrier as they might be (I make sprockets for a living!)
Excellent explaination!
This is why i love your videos. Theres just something new to learn or be aware of.
Always wondered about this... Thanks for the insight!
Thanks to this video.. it gives me an answer.. my chain have uneven slack and it always bothered me.. thankyou sir!!!
Very interesting Matt , so what about lateral movement in the sprockets does this affect chain wear too?
Thank you for clearing that up. Months ago i used a new chain on my chainsaw and i noticed a tight spot. I tought: wow my chainsaw is a PoS, good to know now thats normal.
Smarter every day when you learn something new. Cheers Matt. You could space off the sprocket(a bit) so it was proud of the carrier lip, then run the DTI on the inner face of sprocket bore.
I have been wrong about chain tight spots for the last 37 years of riding, your video proof is incontrovertible, still though, I almost feel like sending you a verbose, angry, poorly written email. LOL
I miss Lemmiwinks doing the face plant but i suppose you can only flog a dead horse for so long. Good vid and educating never gets old. Keep up the good work my friend, Canada salutes you.
Obvious problem here is that you haven't been cooking up your chains before fitting them!
Obviously LOL
LOL Yea break out that Bar- B- Que pit and start frying up those chains. Funny funny funny.
Thanks for explaining that, was going nuts tryna get rid of the tight spot by adjusting both sides and thinking could be the chain haha didn't dawn to me with all the frustration that could be the sprocket too
Thanks for that info Matt i was always wondering why this was
someone has the link to the much advertised pt 2 ? cannot seem to find it.
Very interesting, every day a school day👍.
Three variables then, the chain itself wear, the sprocket, the wheel itself and I suppose another the fastners.
Again an exellent post thank you.
Damn it, this explains a lot about the chain problem on my previous bike
Great explanation...way better than all the usual effing and jeffing!
fuck, fuck and more fuck -
Interesting indeed!!
good one Mat thankx again
IT'S THE SPROCKET?? WTH! Thanks for the amazing information. I will keep this in mind when I fit a new chain kit next.
Great vid, I have a major slack/tight scenario. I assumed it was the chain. Going to tear into this more and see whats really going on. Should I be looking at the front sprocket as well?
Hi! Can you please share the part 2 link?
Always suspected the sprocket - have you tried this on the front sprocket too?
Thanks. Very good presentation.
Hmm my brother bought me cheap chain and sprocket combo and my chain gets tight and loose, I didn't know if it was stiff links in chain or wheel allotment alignment... how would you recommend tensioning a chain like that? I guess in-between the tight spot and loose spot? Or do I need a new sprocket?
Whilst on the subject of chains, I remember a video where you had a ‘DID type’ chain riveter and you where going to see if the original DID pins would fit. Did you get round to doing this and ‘did’ they fit? Thanks
Yes it DID (lol) and thanks for reminding me
Additional point. Can you actually buy well made concentric sprockets?
Mmmm. Well I'll be buggered !! I always wondered why my tight spot kept moving.! Cheers Matt
You must of read my mind, i just yesterday deep cleaned my chain and switched to gear oil as per yours and Fortnines recommendation, and as I tensioned it I too realised that the chain tension varies +/- 5mm from what it's supposed to be
Does anyone remember when Harley first went to belt drives and were breaking belts like crazy because they couldn't make the rear pulley concentric with the rear axel. Why am I not surprised!!!!!
Really well explained Matt, thanks. What is the problem or issue with this happening? Why is it bad? Let's say in a really extreme case, you hit the high spot on the sprocket at the same time as you bottom out the rear suspension and your chain snaps. But in a normal case, like your example with only a small non-concentricity, is there a problem? Cheers
"Really well explained Matt, thanks. What is the problem or issue with this happening? Why is it bad?"
- all will be answered in part 2
I noticed this at work and even more so on the karts what have a split rear socket so the axle does not need to be removed.
How can we fix it??
Thanks👍
Kinked links are next Chain topic (hope so)? My Theory is that problem with kinks is not in Chain maintenance but seizing between pin and bushing (lack of factory lubricant guarded by o/x rings?). It happened to my DID ZMVX 520 on Kawasaki Z750, road use only, after 20k km in multiple spots (10-11 links), well maintained, never ridden in wet, gravel etc, no rust at all, x rings without visible defects, no tight spots, nowhere near tolerance when measuring distance between 20 links, ... After breaking few links to inspect, seized ones had much more wear than others and were almost dry.... Original (EK) Chain lasted twice as long and without kinked links (not one), it was uniformly "stretched" and replaced with new set (chain and sprockets). Your thought on that? Thanks
You can get tight spots in the chain which is usually visible by inspection but yes when ever i do a chain tension during service i always spin the wheel slowly to find that spot and adjust to that. What i have also come across is that the hub was not machined square for the bearings and the hub is actually out of round...And that was on new bikes...
What bike was that?
@@dirtygarageguy It was a lesser known brand, I saw it more than once as i worked at the dealership for these bikes until recently so prob shouldn't say their name.lol. I did have a vid of it i'll try and find it.
This is interesting and definitely something to consider. In my case however, I have 5 links in a row on my chain that are stretched. The "tight spot" also follows the chain, not the sprocket.
This is some very great info, but I'd caution against telling people that is definitely NOT the chain, as in many cases, it is. A new rider may see this and only replace a sprocket and wind up still needing to replace chain. Great video. Thanks!
What? Sorry but you're wrong. And who said changing or buy a new sprocket was necessary?
I would love you to prove you have 5 links that are stretched...
@@dirtygarageguy I am not wrong. There are many cases in which a chain can become stretched in just one spot. It can be easily checked with a digital caliper.
I'm not sure of any way that I can prove to you that my links are stretched. If i provide you with a photo, you will say that my measurements were taken with one section compressed and the other pulled apart. So it's pointless to try to post a photo. You have a very interesting video, and for some, this may be the fix. Hell, I even went out to my garage and tried as you suggested. Unfortunately, in my case, Both my front and rear sprockets are dead on even. It is my chain that is stretched. I'm sorry if you're offended, but you are in fact wrong if you think a chain cannot stretch in some areas and not others. Certain acts such as hard wheelies or hard clutch dumps can cause this. If a chain is too loose and tries to jump a tooth on a sprocket, it can be yanked with extreme force by the smaller gear. Like I said, there are many situations in which only a few links can get stretched/damaged.
Had I not already changed the chain on my bike, I could show you with a few pieces of tape on the chain and the sprocket. You would see that MY tight spots followed the chain and would not appear on the same tooth or even same area of either the sprocket each rotation. My rear sprocket would rotate about 400-415 degrees per tight spot. (rougly 55 teeth.... my sprocket is only a 44 tooth sprocket, so obviously it can be the rear) my front sprocket would make several rotations before the tight spot. (Roughy 3.25 to 3.5 rotations) so its obviously not the front sprocket. Even so, I verified this with your method. The tight spot on my CHAIN was caused when the loose/stretched sections of chain links rode up onto the rear sprocket. The slack was no longer there because the teeth of the sprocket were preventing those stretched links from being able to stretch out. When the stretched links left the sprocket, they were allowed to stretch back apart, therefore causing the chain to again have slack.
Like I said, you have some good tips, but you're foolishly guiding people to believe that a motorcycle chain cannot stretch unevenly. You're trying to say that tight spots are ONLY because of misaligned sprockets, and you are wrong! Unfortunately, you obviously have not been around motorcycles long enough. I'm sorry If you're unable to accept this and I don't fault you for being wrong. What I do fault you for is the inability to accept when you are wrong.
Sned me your chain. Make a video doing the measurements. If you're correct ill do a video about it
check the front sprocket also. remove the chain and check the rear sprocket clearance with the device as you turn the wheel. then measure the inner chain diameter at different spots. you should come out with accurate readings
When i had tyres fitted i was told the red dot on the tyre is to be fitted inline with the valve due to it being the lightest part of the tyre. So is that light bit of tyre against heavy bit of the wheel . I cant think how you could measure/chech a part of a tyre or part of a wheel for weight
it can be white or yellow and usually a circle - however some tyres don't have them - like the michelins I have now.....
I have just gone from 16/45 teeth to 15/45 with a 110 chain (just changed the front sprocket, chain and sprockets were 600 miles old) and I have a huge difference in tightness and slack, not sure if it was like that before or whether it's to do with the change in number of teeth to number of links?
No. It's the offset of the sprocket.
Genius!!! ❤
so what do we do? measure during the tight spot or the low?
we'll get to this in part 2
So, I got most of that, but I'm a little bit confused as to how this creates tight spots in the chain specifically? If that makes sense? I have always measured the tight spots on the chain in tbe middle of both sprockets, so how does a non-concentric sprocket cause a tight spot on the chain?
I'll explain in the next video - but a 'tight spot' is not a 'spot' its when the chain goes tighter
@@dirtygarageguy oh okay... do engineers just make this shit more difficult for us civilians on purpose? 😂😂
Is any solutions have you ?
My bike chain have this same loos and tight,how can I solve it,do u know any idea?
yes - shim the sprocket - or don't worry about it
@@dirtygarageguy I hope not worrying about it is worth it
Easiest way to check a binding chain 'root cause' is to mark a link and mark the sprocket where the tight spot happens (min free play check). Rotate the wheel several revolutions until the tight spot comes around. Is the sprocket mark at a different position? If it is you have a chain issue. If the tight spot occurs at the same sprocket point you marked then it's the sprocket. No DTI required. It isn't rocket science.
Wow, what a load of bollocks this comment is.......
If it’s not always in the same spot how could it be the sprocket? Mine is doing the same thing as far as I can tell both sprockets are running good but chain tension not in the same position
Because where is the spot your measuring from?
Mine is the chain some links are tight others are loose about 7000 miles on the chain
Looks like my SV1000 but my Axle Nut is on the other side :D Do you lube it with Gear oil?
LOl your axle nut is on the wrong side - and that is an issue....
And yes she gets the 80W90
The Workshop well i never changed it and never questioned it. Well i know what i do tomorrow 😅
So, because rectifying this situation is a pain in the ass, we should just let the rough end drag?
But also don't forget the rear sprocket carrier only sits inside the rubber cushion blocks, there's bound to be some run out, surely.
What are the increments on your dti, if its a metric one, your only looking at 0.10mm runout there. Similarly is the rear sprocket within 0.10mm parallel to the front, I bet it's not.
I am interested in the rear brake disk..that is the SV? . It's not the stock rear disc is it. Advantages of the 'petal' design v's stock.
Sorry don't know what disc that is but regarding advantages, the different designs of brake disc's serve two purposes cooling the disc and even wear on the pad. However due to the fact that it is the rear disc it simply does not get used enough for a design to make a noticeable difference to performance. IOW the standard is the best in regards to performance however the performance difference between it and even the worst performing one is negligible.
Weight and cooling
I just replaced my chain and sprockets on my z800 and my chain gets tighter at certain spots. I asked my mechanic and he said it's probably from over tightening the chain and when you hit a large pothole the weight of the bike compressing the rear suspension could have stretched part of the chain causing this problem. I do remember over tightening the chain a bit one time could that cause this issue or should I be looking at the rear sprocket?
yes - undo the sprocket and then re-tighten - if you're lucky then that would sit it in a different location and hopefully you will sort it out. I'll be doing another video on this soon
Mind blown with this information. So simple an explanation I never thought of it... or I'm just completely daft.
The difference in chain tension between my tight spot (oo-er) and the least tight spot is pretty wild. Not sure what the best tension is for my chain.
Thanks, so is the only cure to replace the sprocket?
No, you shim the sprocket.
so all this to tell us the sprocket isn't concentric with the wheel bearings.
Wow super
Hi all, can this be a reason for a chain noise? I fitted a D.I.D vx chain and a JT sprockets but I have a wierd noise between 20-50 m/h. My mechanic said its because of the tight spot in chain. Its extremely annoying! Can I do anything about it?
Your mechanic is an idiot. How can you even hear your chain at all?
@@dirtygarageguy as I'm riding I can hear a noise like "woo woo woo" and it gets faster or slower when I speed or break. After about 50m/h it fades in.
I thought the tight spots were caused by swelling of the o-rings /x rings causing drag..... so I've been picking the tight ones out.
Pro tip:
When You open the new chain set, wash it down with Vodka.
Then, drink the leftover.
Then, take out the wheel, and apply a little bit of exhaust paste on the hub.
Then, drop the chainwheel to the hub, tide up the bolts with Your finger, take a indicator and knock the chainwheel to the center with rubber hammer.
Then open a new bottle of Vodka and drink more.
After 1/2 hour, tide up the bolts with the desired torque, and wash down the exhaust paste with Vodka.
Then just go to sleep:)
Ooor, just buy a original DID full chain-set and never replace only the chain alone!
Is this normal to our motorcycle?
Would this cause vibration ….trying to diagnose a vibration issue
In your swing arm?
Hey man ik this video is old but I'm having a problem I think with my chain, it'll get very loose and very tight so I tried to adjust at its tightest spot but still gets very loose and now my bike is stuttering at steady throttle like the chain is tightening enough to slow the rear wheel periodically it feels like a misfire but it accelerates fine it only stutters when decelerating and steady throttle
You need to check you axle and wheel bearings. Is it s 125?
@@dirtygarageguy it's an r1 I don't think it's the wheel bearing or anything
Why wouldn't you? Someone could have stretched the axle nut or thread.
So basically don't worry about it? Had chain/sprocket replaced about 2k km ago, haven't really looked that much on any tight/high spots but I do notice it now. Not horrible amount of difference but certainly some difference. So here I am worried that my expensive DID chain is starting to go.. This will be very difficult to fix completely, right? Really would like a part 2 video!
Is the cush drive flogged out.
Nope - was checked recently - but that's for the next video
what is that tool called?
What tool?
@@dirtygarageguy theres only 1 tool in the video bro :D the one u put on the chain to measure the differences
DTI a dial test indicator
For those wanting to correct this, a wheel balancing stand is your friend.
Would a off center wheel do that ?
Yes, but it depends what's off centre. What matters is the sprocket to bearing centre. If those are concentric then everything is fine
What’s the solution here? A new sprocket or just resetting it? I’m at the garage now with what seems this problem and they are standing around the bike looking confused even after showing them this vid. Cheers Dan
Shim the sprocket. But all sprockets do it to some degree why are you at a garage because of it?
there's another video on here, that shows the chap spinning the sprocket around on the bike, chain still attached until he gets an even chain tension.
Link?
Actually it could be sticky chain links. When you have a sticky link it tends to prevent the chain going fully over the sprocket, hence causing a tight spot on the chain. Literally tightening and loosing the chain constantly. This is bad for the sprocket and causes premature wear. O-ring chains tend to suffer less from this issue, but they still do. Only way to fix this is to remove the chain put on a vice, tighten close to a sticky link and use force to try to bend the chain sideways. Usually this movement releases the debris that is preventing the link to move freely. Soaking the chain in solvents or stuff does not help, or the results are not satisfactory.
"Actually it could be sticky chain links. When you have a sticky link it tends to prevent the chain going fully over the sprocket, hence causing a tight spot on the chain." - simply put no.
Try spinning the wheel with a photography strobe light shining onto the sprocket. This will show up the deviation. You'll have to do it at night or somewhere dark like the garage.
It's not a problem to worry about as it's been around since the earliest motorcycles went from leather belt drive to chain drive in the 1900's.
Can you explain the strobe light technique a bit better? Interested to try this.
Or you might have accidentally fitted one of those fancy asymmetric chain rings they use on road cycling
thats why i have shaft drive :)
Shaft drive is great till somehting goes wrong then its awful
You guys like shafts? Hihihihihi 😏😏😏😏. Dont get mad you served it on a plate!
I'd been told you love a good shaft
@@KennyKak ooh err missus
I stumbled on this video and I really like it but at the same time it made me confused. I haven´t seen a sprocket that was non-concentric or oval for about twenty years. Well if you don´t count really cheap ones. Are you sure it is the sprocket and not the hub or the bearings in the hub or something else? What I have seen a lot is chains with tight spots when the chain is left for a while. Especially if the chain isn´t lubricated or if the motorcycle owner lives near the ocean.
"I haven´t seen a sprocket that was non-concentric or oval for about twenty years."
Not the sprocket itself - its alignment to the wheel.
"Are you sure it is the sprocket and not the hub or the bearings in the hub or something else?"
- No, and that's gonna be in part 2.
@@dirtygarageguy Thanks!
How many motorcycles are out there that have been run with a loose sprocket that has destroyed the possibility of having the best machined sprocket from EVER indexing correctly on the hub.
This is one of your most thought-provoking videos, for me. But I am not clever enough to convince myself as to 'why' the sprocket should wear like this. Too many miles, poor maintenance, poor materials, poor engineering?
Its not wear - it's how it sits on the sprocket carrier
@@dirtygarageguy So, it is built to ultimately fail?
not fail. Its 2 things
1) the engagment between the sprocket and the carrier (and even the cush drive)
2) The concentricity of the teeth to the ring hole in the middle. Cheaper sprockets will generally be worse that 'better' quality ones.
There's gonna be a part 2 to this
@@dirtygarageguy I will look forward to the second-half ;)
@@dirtygarageguy Cheaper sprockets will generally be worse that 'better' quality ones. There's gonna be a part 2 to this
A test of sprocket accuracy?
genius
high spots ?
Matt..This is good stuff..but is it the whole story?.....Chains can wear in odd way`s...
Thankyou for this..It explains alot.
"but is it the whole story?"
- no and this isn't wear - 'where' did you get that from....?
@@dirtygarageguy ...A four/2 cylinder bike delivers relatively smooth power to the chain...My Klr 650 hammers the chain
especially at low rpm...
No sprocket no matter the brand or quality are not perfectly round learned this some 15 years ago when I use to race BMX competitively. It's kinda the same like you said about break rotors in one of your previous videos.
did you ever do a part 2? I have 99 ZX-9R. original owner, pristine condition only about 20,000 miles with new (less than 1000 miles) supersprox sprockets and RK GB525GXW X link chain. variation in tension of 10mm! a mark on sprocket shows that the areas where tight and loose are always when sprocket is at same point in relation to a mark on swingarm, so it is NOT chain. when loosen sprocket nuts though, there is no play for sprocket to move. may try rotating sprocket on hub. could have stacking of tolerance-non concentric hub and non concentric sprocket and mounted in such a way that the concentric areas line up, magnifying situation. may get some improvement (less variation) if that is the case
hey were you ever able to figure this out?
I want a video.
Fooking hell. Just lube it, tension it and ride the fooking thing. If it’s fooked replace it
Okay but how do i fix it
You don't need to, chain's have slack in them
@@dirtygarageguy my chain seems to be so loose in some spots and then so tight in others that the tire will barely spin though
Then you've got serious problems...
@@dirtygarageguy yeah not sure what is wrong, other sources said i just need a new chain and possibly sprockets
So the guys who machined the sprocket were incompetent. Awesome.
Or is the sprocket concentric and the wheel/hub isn't? Mark the hub, take the sprocket loose and move it 180 degrees compared to the hub and recheck.
Fuck me all that lubing and ajusting over the years no need for half it probably if dial checking ah well high time i bought one anyway cheers for another golden nugget can't wait to get pissed and bore people with this at a rally.
So everyone needs to abom their sprocket on?
Shaft drive!. Sorted.
You should take a sander and sand high spots non a chain, according to philosophy other you tube channel (cant remember a name ,but he wares t shirt "B really stupid really fast" ,or same thing like that) and as a bonus your bike WILL GET FASTER . Amazing technology in our days ,isn't it ....
Theoretically the sprocket and chain wears less, since parts dont always touch the same place, when you have a chain and sprocket with non divisible gear or link number?
Hope you understood the 2.sentence, i didnt know how to explain better.
No, because the wear isn't between specific points on the chain...
What if there’s only one spot on the chain that gets tight
There's no such thing, unless your sprockets have a resonance of 2 :1
@@dirtygarageguy that’s why I’m confused because I marked the chain where it gets stuck and the sprocket will do a full rotation no problem until that one area of the chain comes around
I hope you didn't use the chain you'd taken half the x-rings out of (in order to compare the performance between Slow & Stoopid Fast)!
So definitely not crank bent 🤔
??
What could cause it? 👍
what you cause it? I don't understand?
The Workshop firering order, pulsing?
no. Its just misalignment - some are worse than others and some are bang on - it depends on the quality of sprocket, the mounting arrangement - etc etc
There could be another thing that caused this; the Cush drive rubbers. If they become a bit loose than the the sprocket will wobble. Any views on this hypothesis?
The bearings align the sprocket, not the cush drive.
makes cents to me ;-)
2
put a new chain and sprocket on it would cost less than than that thing your trying to use
What?
3
@Marc Jackson I only go up to ten, dont know how to untie shoelaces
Open toe sandals mate.
@@rumien1383 My Mum makes me wear socks, so that's a no go
@Shlutty Mc'Shlutface I tend to have problems with space age tchnologils thingy ma jigs
@@omegadun66 well that's that then. We're beaten.