I was baptized Anglican as a child but have, for all intents and purposes, been atheist/secular for most of my adult life until around 5 years ago. For the last 2 years I have been seriously discerning the Catholic Church but I aways felt that my childhood ties with Anglicanism held me back emotionally from making that step. Conversations like this keep giving me a nudge (or perhaps more of a shove) closer to the Catholic Church...
Thanks for this video with Gavin. I am not a Roman Carholic but value Gavins analysis and have seen the love of God and respect for the gospel and the bible in many expressions of Christianity. I have been encouraged and learnt from Gavin over several years. Thanks again for having this discourse with Gavin.
You two make quite the dynamic theological duo. Please don't let this by your final collaboration. Now this is the Catholic Atlanticism I can get behind!
When I saw you conducted another Dr. Ashenden interview I was thrilled and my expectations were fulfilled.The first time I heard of Ashenden was over a year ago when he spoke to Damien Thompson on the Holy Smoke podcast about the astonishing appeal of Jordan Peterson. He makes connections between the Peterson and Jung too. Definitely worth looking up.
Thank you Gavin for addressing the elephant in the room, clergy sexual abuse. The world has watched victims denied and abusers promoted, how can we evangelize for the truth when authorities within the church don’t embody it themselves. No other reforms or catechism of the church will work as long as this issue is not resolved. God bless the bishops and cardinals willing to speak out and resist. Thank you for your podcast.
I agree with Gavin Ashenden that Westminster Abbey and St. Paul's Cathedral have an absence of the feeling of the sacred. St. Paul's in particular has an absence of the sacred, at least for me. It is true that for whatever reason Catholic and Orthodox churches tend to _feel_ different; a sense of the sacred seems to permeate the building.
I need the transcript to this. Gavin explains things from so many angles while managing to get to the deepest spirituality and the whole idea of holiness. When do we hear about holiness in our parishes and what that means in practical terms? It is indeed very difficult. We "hold onto" a lot of things. Grateful for Gavin.
The last part talking about the theurapeutic approach to good and evil based on Jungian thesis and its connection with some current tendencies within the Church is very worth getting a long development.
The reason for the difference between the US and UK Ordinariate is that many UK Anglo-Catholic clergy adopted the Novus Ordo, both Mass and Office, after Vatican 2, and celebrated it as Anglican priests in Anglican parishes. I have heard an Anglican joke that it was only after having become Catholic priests that many Ordinariate clergy are having to celebrate Anglican liturgy! However, the Ordinariate Use itself has various options. One can use the 'Tridentine' options, such as the Judica Me (prayers at the foot of the altar) at the beginning of Mass, the old Roman Offertory, and Last Gospel at the end, or opt to have their Novus Ordo equivalents. The second option reflects the reality of what I described above and the first reflects the fact that many Anglo-Catholic clergy, prior to Vatican 2, incorporated these very elements of the Tridentine Mass (also the Canon), rendered in 16-c English, into Anglican Masses (the English Missal tradition). Some pre-Conciliar Anglo-Catholic priests in fact celebrated the Tridentine Mass when they could get away with it (often privately). At the UK Ordinariate's central parish, at Warwick St. London, the Tridentine options are often employed (the PP also regularly celebrates the Tridentine Mass). I hope that helps clarify things.
What a scintillating conversation! Great food for thought. Dr. Ashenten, i sa appreciate your testimony. I was born USA Episcopal, but left by 43 as the Chirch had gone off the rails. I became Catholic. It has been both a glorious and confusing experience. I became aware of the problems in the Vatican last fall. I had finally applied myself to learn how to use TH-cam. (I was 71, not bad for an old lady, eh?) Among the first thing I saw was the GAFTON Conference, which is where I first saw you. (I have been your fan ever since.) I am more than upset by the recent travesties. I am considering leaving for this is not the church I signed on for. It has become the Episcopal Chirch of the early 1990's. I repudiated and rejected that mess. Now here it is again in the Catholic Church. I am disgusted, and haven't been to Mass or anything since Christmas. I have listended to the Messianic Christian who authored THE HARBINGER. (Rabbi Jonathan Kahn). He has a sermon on the Vatican troubles. When he said "touch not the unclean thing," and "you know what to do," my heart sank. Yes, I know, based on all my studies and experiences. But I am not doing anything yet. There is a time and place for everything. This is not my time. And TH-cam is not the place to make this decision. So I am "resisting." And I echo your sorrow for Mother Church. I am hoping for a miracle. Perhaps the next Pope will be different. Or more lightning will strike in more places! (Not hurting anyone!) But unequivocally announcing God's disfavor. God bless you Gavin! I think you are a great influence upon me so I don't leave. Yet. Or hopefully never! Thank you for all you do to help our Church! ✝️🛐💟🕊️🕯️🙏🏻🌹 (A rose for Mary.)
I was helping out during post-service coffee hour in a US Episcopal church renowned for its very rich liturgy. I was asked to go into the kitchen to get something and there by the sink, among the dirty dishes and cups, were chalices from the Eucharist...with wine still in them. I knew at once that all the Catholic and Byzantine (and even Coptic) carrying on was just a mask for the rankest Protestantism. I never went back.
Thank you both for a thoroughly enjoyable, educating, indeed edifying, discussion. I've learned so much...now off to get up to speed on Jung (clearly the way ahead!😊).
Since it has been mentioned in the response, I'm afraid the blemish on my cheek, was caused charcoal caused by my lighting, my Wood Burner, before the conversation began. Larry was either to polite to mention it, or else he is as shortsighted as I am. To the extent that it distracts from the conversation, please accept my apologies for being clumsy.
I also have run into an attitude towards the Africans as being sort of backwards in other, non-Catholic, areas. One woman I know who would consider herself very liberal, said much the same thing. I have to tell you that it floored me.
Every Sunday I go to an Ordinariate Mass which is celebrated with traditional vestments includes the great prayer which St Augustine brought to England, and is celebrated by a very orthodox Catholic Priest (a former Baptist Minister.) I am lucky. I gather that now the C of E regards, by the Porvoo Declaration , its orders as equal to Lutherans, Calvinists, etc.
Ordinariate liturgy....the issue may be that most former Anglican clergy in the UK, now Catholic, were not Prayer Book Anglicans, except when saying Evensong on Sunday. They prayed the modern Roman Divine Office and used either the modern Anglican texts for Holy Communion or the English Missal. A small number used the Roman Missal. Read the texts. The Ordinariate Use is the Novus Ordo but with added Cranmer, unlike the English Missal which "mashed" the Old Rite and Cranmer. The decision by the Ordinariate to adapt the Prayer Book for its Office is welcome but there is an element of desperately trying to bring Anglican patrimony into the Catholic Church, by resurrecting the practice of using the Prayer Book, which had long been abandoned by many former Anglican clergy who are now Ordinariate priests. Dr Ashenden's remarks about the Grail Psalter - assuming that's the translation he's referring to - reminds me of a book of essays by converts called, "Come On In - It’s Awful", edited by Joanna Bogle. I wonder if Dr Ashenden thinks the Abbey Psalter is any better.
It's one of the great ironies, that the reformation occurred at one of the high points of the English language, and such visionary poetics was put to squaring an impossible theological circle.
So thankful for Dr. Ashenden for telling it like it is. If Pope Francis was in the laity and not the clergy, we would call him an enabler for the way he is handling the sexual scandals in the church. 😔
Although I don’t understand everything, and closed captioning doesn’t spell certain names and terms correctly so I can look up, I love these discussions. Obviously, “someone” doesn’t like what Gavin is saying, hence all the freezing. You both had perseverance! (So strange.)
Very inciteful Viewing Francis as a Jungian; helps makes some sense of his nonsense the mess he has made. Is it known that he in fact came under the influence of Jung? Couldn't his anti-authoritian bias and and focus on rigidity have come by way of the Frankfurt School ie Marcuse, Adorno? Thank you both for this conversation!
During Gavin's "freeze" we missed the second line he was quoting, the one essential to understanding his "domestic abuse" argument that made him "fall out of live with Cranmer". Please, could this be added and pinned as a comment?
You spoke about the Catholic martyrs, but I would remind you that the Catholic Church made a number of martyrs of those on the Anglican side, including Cranmer.
I feel quite sad listening to your intellectual discussion. As an Anglican with a strong belief in the Holy Mass & Holy Scripture & a strong dislike of the direction the C of E is set I believe my hope lies with a closeness of thinking & understanding of The Roman Catholic & Anglo Catholic Churches. Listening to you appears to have destroyed such hope so I am in despair. You have brought to the front the horrible split of over a century within my family which is split between ancestral Italians & Irish & my more immediate family due to my grandfather after his first wife died married a Protestant, my grandmother. A split which has prevailed for over a hundred years, I am 80 now. I wonder what our dear Lord will think of that. My apologies for not presenting an intellectual comment just a painful reality of the inability of man not loving his brother. IAs an aside I too knew Peter Ball as he was a novice when I was at Kelham., it was indeed a great shock to learn of his demise.
I am an Anglican in the Anglican Church in North America and even within ACNA we do not agree on women’s ordination. I have no personal stake in this, but I am not clear on what the theological reasons are for not ordaining women. I have heard some, but they seem very weak. I would be open to some good arguments on this and some resources about the topic. I do feel uncomfortable with women priests, mostly because my experience of women ministers in other denominations is that they tend to be heterodox in their theology. On the other hand, cannot God raise up leaders within the church as he sees fit? I do agree that arguing for the equality of men and women is a very poor reason for women’s ordination.
After the "black rubric" of 1559 was removed, there is a line of Anglican ordinations, coming much later, that are down-line the "dutch touch" of genuine Roman Catholic bishops, who reinvigorated Anglican orders, at least within those lines, to the extent that you believe the "black rubric" was the problematic principle invalidating Anglican orders. They may be irregular, with respect to Roman orders, but it is possible that they are ontologically legitimate. Does Gavin have an opinion on that? How is that seen in Rome these days?
Did I hear correctly? Cranmer's 1552 Prayer Book did NOT contain the "Catholic" words of administration. They were there in 1549 but replaced in 1552 by the "in remembrance of me" words. Cranmer clearly wanted the "Zwinglian" words to prevail. He was of course dead before later revisions of the book were made with both sets of words retained.
The second phrase of Holy Communion was NOT Cranmer speaking, but Lambeth ~ 'to keep the peace the first phrase was for the High Church; the second sentence for the Low.' Dear Eminent Fr Ashenden, I do hope you join the Ordinariate. Because I think it was an extraordinary moment of petrine grace to lovingly invite orthodox Anglicans. Just please read the Ordinariate founding documents, specifically Benedict's Apostolic Constitution. It positively melts the heart to read his gracious, humble invitation! The fall of the Anglican Church to the Great Apostasy should not be related to the denial of Anglican orders, for shortly after Leo XIII's denial was graciously contradicted by the Orthodox hierarchs who VALIDATED the Orders!! The Pope's denial of orders was as political a decision as the Reformation Era refusal to grant Henry VIII his annulment!!I hope, your grrace, you could find it in your heart to LOVE the Church of England decades and centuries ago. I'm a Benedictine Associate of Nashdom Abbey. I swear your grace, after nearly three decades later, I have stayed for weeks on end of many Benedictine Abbies worldwide and I swear I've not EVER found a Catholic groups of monks who were as reborn, as full of the Holy Spirit and, endless moons, not a FRACTION of the sheer CHARITY of the monks of Nashdom long ago - God bless every single one of them, from Dom Gregory Dix on down to Dom Cuthbert the gatekeeper and aficiando of all things Orthodox. Again, after over two decades of combing through the RC Church and NEVER finding a welcome sign, by the grace of God I went further into Holy Orthodoxy, which is the CLOSEST way to the WAY of the Holy Apostles, indeed the sacred origin of their Faith, from the blessed hands of the Lord Jesus Christ. If you both want to read the true Church Dogmatics, I leave this space by recommending Fr Michael Pomazansky from Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville NY, the perfect doctrine in his Orthodox Dogmatics! God Bless you & his grace be joyfully yours!!
There are so many things that I think are wrong with your argument. Firstly, Anglicanism is not a single denomination. It is a coalition of different protestants spiritualities. They don’t have the same understanding of ecclesiology, they believe different things about ministers, sacraments, Orders and authority -it is completely impossible without some form of foundation to draw them together in a coherent ecclesial expression. You can’t validate Orders where everyone has a different understanding of what the orders are. There have been many attempts of course to introduce apostolic legitimacy, and whilst I have no idea what the Holy Spirit thinks of that, it must be clear that there is no such thing as a coherent ecclesiology that is Anglicanism - effectively, there is nothing that can be validated because of its internal coherence and self-contradiction
The traditional Roman liturgy is older than the Sarem Rite and various slightly different uses of York and Canterbury. Cramner rewrote the liturgy doing revisions. The Ordinariate Liturgy drawn up under Benedict XVI is more similar to the traditional Romsn Rite than the Novus Ordo. Yes Cramner used manipulativr contradiction. Luther held you could use words and keep externals but changed the meaning. Modernism uses this as well as in inventing Church speak. Francis snd Fernandez use ambiguity. The 1964 liturgy is better as an alternative.
BUT, Bergoglio has been generous with the SSPX…isn’t THAT consistent (with regard Gavin’s point) with his meeting with Evangelicals? AND to take issue with Gavin regarding SJ James Martin; we in SSPX acknowledge firmly, clearly & openly that homosexuality is a Sin that Cry’s Out to Heaven. AND I agree that the Rupnick abuse of Nuns Sin of Omission by Francis is EVIL!
It’s uncomfortable. How do Catholics handle the problem of saying the bishop of Rome is bishop of earth when he teaches error? It knocks the whole foundation loose. You can’t say that and insist he is the chief shepherd. There is nobody to be loyal to. Having all the eggs in one basket is detrimental to their faith.
What does “Jungian heterodoxy” even mean? Sounds like gibberish to me. Wonder if anyone ever ran an experiment about his supposed ability to “look through eyes” which is a perfect example of the emotion based nature of evangelicalism. Kinda funny too when he brought up wanting to believe no one is in hell, guess he better not look into your archives Larry
Dr Ashenden was a Jungian. Sometimes he seems to use "Jungian heterodoxy" interchangeably with "Cultural Marxism". I sense he's trying to shed his past and atone for past errors. My diagnosis may be wrong and he can speak for himself.
Jungian heterodoxy means exactly what it says:- Jung presents himself as if he were a believer in Christianity, but he is, in fact, an agnostic parasite on Christianity undermining orthodoxy. Those who undermine orthodoxy do so with ‘heterodoxy.’ Jung helped propagate A worldview that Cultural Marxism has taken advantage of and is founded on, but they’re not the same thing. It’s not entirely Jung’s own invention-since Gnosticism has been around for a very long time and he is perhaps its latest iteration.
@@edwardbell9795 the second term is a fancy sounding thing that means nothing and the fact he use it interchangeably makes me even more suspicious of the first term having much content in his case either. What do the things he pushed have anything to do with being a “Jungian” anyhow?
Some folk are lucky our pope leans on mercy above justice when it comes to the Lati rite folk. If St. John Paul II had been offered the same disrespect from them, they'd be excommunicated like the Lefevreans they're in bed with. Generosity? Calling the Holy Father the antichrist? Lying about child molesters that Pope Francis has removed in contrast to previous papacies. When you deal in lies.
I was baptized Anglican as a child but have, for all intents and purposes, been atheist/secular for most of my adult life until around 5 years ago. For the last 2 years I have been seriously discerning the Catholic Church but I aways felt that my childhood ties with Anglicanism held me back emotionally from making that step. Conversations like this keep giving me a nudge (or perhaps more of a shove) closer to the Catholic Church...
God bless and keep you, on your journey!!!🙏🙏🙏
@@christopherbates1428 Thanks Christopher for your kind words. God bless you
Very good discussion gentlemen, thank you.
Thanks for this video with Gavin.
I am not a Roman Carholic but value Gavins analysis and have seen the love of God and respect for the gospel and the bible in many expressions of Christianity.
I have been encouraged and learnt from Gavin over several years.
Thanks again for having this discourse with Gavin.
You two make quite the dynamic theological duo. Please don't let this by your final collaboration. Now this is the Catholic Atlanticism I can get behind!
Larry and Gavin know how to make awesome conversations. Great episode!!
"It invites our compassion on to illegitimate grounds". That was so well put. What a banger of an interview. Thanks.
Great discussion I can’t believe it went by so fast. It’s truly captivating. Thank you. God bless the Holy Catholic Church 🙏🏻🕊️🙏🏻
I'm really glad I found your channel!! It is wonderful!!!!
When I saw you conducted another Dr. Ashenden interview I was thrilled and my expectations were fulfilled.The first time I heard of Ashenden was over a year ago when he spoke to Damien Thompson on the Holy Smoke podcast about the astonishing appeal of Jordan Peterson. He makes connections between the Peterson and Jung too. Definitely worth looking up.
Thank you Gavin for addressing the elephant in the room, clergy sexual abuse. The world has watched victims denied and abusers promoted, how can we evangelize for the truth when authorities within the church don’t embody it themselves. No other reforms or catechism of the church will work as long as this issue is not resolved. God bless the bishops and cardinals willing to speak out and resist. Thank you for your podcast.
I agree with Gavin Ashenden that Westminster Abbey and St. Paul's Cathedral have an absence of the feeling of the sacred. St. Paul's in particular has an absence of the sacred, at least for me. It is true that for whatever reason Catholic and Orthodox churches tend to _feel_ different; a sense of the sacred seems to permeate the building.
I’m glad I discovered this channel and you via meaning of Catholic and Tim Flanders. Enjoying these programs and your content !! Thank you!! 🙏❤️
May I remark that the delight of your conversation is more than I can say. Amen amen alleluia amen.
I need the transcript to this. Gavin explains things from so many angles while managing to get to the deepest spirituality and the whole idea of holiness. When do we hear about holiness in our parishes and what that means in practical terms? It is indeed very difficult. We "hold onto" a lot of things. Grateful for Gavin.
The last part talking about the theurapeutic approach to good and evil based on Jungian thesis and its connection with some current tendencies within the Church is very worth getting a long development.
The reason for the difference between the US and UK Ordinariate is that many UK Anglo-Catholic clergy adopted the Novus Ordo, both Mass and Office, after Vatican 2, and celebrated it as Anglican priests in Anglican parishes. I have heard an Anglican joke that it was only after having become Catholic priests that many Ordinariate clergy are having to celebrate Anglican liturgy! However, the Ordinariate Use itself has various options. One can use the 'Tridentine' options, such as the Judica Me (prayers at the foot of the altar) at the beginning of Mass, the old Roman Offertory, and Last Gospel at the end, or opt to have their Novus Ordo equivalents. The second option reflects the reality of what I described above and the first reflects the fact that many Anglo-Catholic clergy, prior to Vatican 2, incorporated these very elements of the Tridentine Mass (also the Canon), rendered in 16-c English, into Anglican Masses (the English Missal tradition). Some pre-Conciliar Anglo-Catholic priests in fact celebrated the Tridentine Mass when they could get away with it (often privately). At the UK Ordinariate's central parish, at Warwick St. London, the Tridentine options are often employed (the PP also regularly celebrates the Tridentine Mass). I hope that helps clarify things.
❤❤❤Brilliant and Thank you 😊 🙏 🛐✝️💗
What a scintillating conversation! Great food for thought. Dr. Ashenten, i sa appreciate your testimony.
I was born USA Episcopal, but left by 43 as the Chirch had gone off the rails. I became Catholic.
It has been both a glorious and confusing experience. I became aware of the problems in the Vatican last fall. I had finally applied myself to learn how to use TH-cam. (I was 71, not bad for an old lady, eh?)
Among the first thing I saw was the GAFTON Conference, which is where I first saw you. (I have been your fan ever since.)
I am more than upset by the recent travesties. I am considering leaving for this is not the church I signed on for. It has become the Episcopal Chirch of the early 1990's. I repudiated and rejected that mess. Now here it is again in the Catholic Church. I am disgusted, and haven't been to Mass or anything since Christmas.
I have listended to the Messianic Christian who authored THE HARBINGER. (Rabbi Jonathan Kahn). He has a sermon on the Vatican troubles. When he said "touch not the unclean thing," and "you know what to do," my heart sank. Yes, I know, based on all my studies and experiences. But I am not doing anything yet. There is a time and place for everything. This is not my time. And TH-cam is not the place to make this decision. So I am "resisting." And I echo your sorrow for Mother Church. I am hoping for a miracle. Perhaps the next Pope will be different. Or more lightning will strike in more places! (Not hurting anyone!) But unequivocally announcing God's disfavor.
God bless you Gavin! I think you are a great influence upon me so I don't leave. Yet. Or hopefully never!
Thank you for all you do to help our Church!
✝️🛐💟🕊️🕯️🙏🏻🌹
(A rose for Mary.)
I was helping out during post-service coffee hour in a US Episcopal church renowned for its very rich liturgy. I was asked to go into the kitchen to get something and there by the sink, among the dirty dishes and cups, were chalices from the Eucharist...with wine still in them. I knew at once that all the Catholic and Byzantine (and even Coptic) carrying on was just a mask for the rankest Protestantism. I never went back.
Thank you both for a thoroughly enjoyable, educating, indeed edifying, discussion. I've learned so much...now off to get up to speed on Jung (clearly the way ahead!😊).
God bless
Since it has been mentioned in the response, I'm afraid the blemish on my cheek, was caused charcoal caused by my lighting, my Wood Burner, before the conversation began. Larry was either to polite to mention it, or else he is as shortsighted as I am. To the extent that it distracts from the conversation, please accept my apologies for being clumsy.
I did not notice it at all! Geez. I must be getting old...
I also have run into an attitude towards the Africans as being sort of backwards in other, non-Catholic, areas. One woman I know who would consider herself very liberal, said much the same thing. I have to tell you that it floored me.
Every Sunday I go to an Ordinariate Mass which is celebrated with traditional vestments includes the great prayer which St Augustine brought to England, and is celebrated by a very orthodox Catholic Priest (a former Baptist Minister.) I am lucky. I gather that now the C of E regards, by the Porvoo Declaration , its orders as equal to Lutherans, Calvinists, etc.
Ordinariate liturgy....the issue may be that most former Anglican clergy in the UK, now Catholic, were not Prayer Book Anglicans, except when saying Evensong on Sunday. They prayed the modern Roman Divine Office and used either the modern Anglican texts for Holy Communion or the English Missal. A small number used the Roman Missal.
Read the texts. The Ordinariate Use is the Novus Ordo but with added Cranmer, unlike the English Missal which "mashed" the Old Rite and Cranmer.
The decision by the Ordinariate to adapt the Prayer Book for its Office is welcome but there is an element of desperately trying to bring Anglican patrimony into the Catholic Church, by resurrecting the practice of using the Prayer Book, which had long been abandoned by many former Anglican clergy who are now Ordinariate priests.
Dr Ashenden's remarks about the Grail Psalter - assuming that's the translation he's referring to - reminds me of a book of essays by converts called, "Come On In - It’s Awful", edited by Joanna Bogle. I wonder if Dr Ashenden thinks the Abbey Psalter is any better.
It's one of the great ironies, that the reformation occurred at one of the high points of the English language, and such visionary poetics was put to squaring an impossible theological circle.
So thankful for Dr. Ashenden for telling it like it is. If Pope Francis was in the laity and not the clergy, we would call him an enabler for the way he is handling the sexual scandals in the church. 😔
GK Chesterton thought that Anglicanism is a "pale imitation."
Another great conversation, gentlemen!
Although I don’t understand everything, and closed captioning doesn’t spell certain names and terms correctly so I can look up, I love these discussions. Obviously, “someone” doesn’t like what Gavin is saying, hence all the freezing. You both had perseverance! (So strange.)
Very inciteful Viewing Francis as a Jungian; helps makes some sense of his nonsense the mess he has made. Is it known that he in fact came under the influence of Jung? Couldn't his anti-authoritian bias and and focus on rigidity have come by way of the Frankfurt School ie Marcuse, Adorno? Thank you both for this conversation!
What form of the breviary would Gavin Ashenden recommend for personal prayer? Thanks so much for sharing this!!! God bless you and yours, Gentlemen!!!
During Gavin's "freeze" we missed the second line he was quoting, the one essential to understanding his "domestic abuse" argument that made him "fall out of live with Cranmer". Please, could this be added and pinned as a comment?
When Benedict XVI visited London, he wore a papal stole that belonged to Leo XIII. The latter pope declared Anglican Orders null.
✝️🙏👍
You spoke about the Catholic martyrs, but I would remind you that the Catholic Church made a number of martyrs of those on the Anglican side, including Cranmer.
I feel quite sad listening to your intellectual discussion. As an Anglican with a strong belief in the Holy Mass & Holy Scripture & a strong dislike of the direction the C of E is set I believe my hope lies with a closeness of thinking & understanding of The Roman Catholic & Anglo Catholic Churches. Listening to you appears to have destroyed such hope so I am in despair. You have brought to the front the horrible split of over a century within my family which is split between ancestral Italians & Irish & my more immediate family due to my grandfather after his first wife died married a Protestant, my grandmother. A split which has prevailed for over a hundred years, I am 80 now. I wonder what our dear Lord will think of that. My apologies for not presenting an intellectual comment just a painful reality of the inability of man not loving his brother. IAs an aside I too knew Peter Ball as he was a novice when I was at Kelham., it was indeed a great shock to learn of his demise.
Therapeutic vs. Supernatural. They are at dagger points now.
I am an Anglican in the Anglican Church in North America and even within ACNA we do not agree on women’s ordination. I have no personal stake in this, but I am not clear on what the theological reasons are for not ordaining women. I have heard some, but they seem very weak. I would be open to some good arguments on this and some resources about the topic. I do feel uncomfortable with women priests, mostly because my experience of women ministers in other denominations is that they tend to be heterodox in their theology. On the other hand, cannot God raise up leaders within the church as he sees fit? I do agree that arguing for the equality of men and women is a very poor reason for women’s ordination.
After the "black rubric" of 1559 was removed, there is a line of Anglican ordinations, coming much later, that are down-line the "dutch touch" of genuine Roman Catholic bishops, who reinvigorated Anglican orders, at least within those lines, to the extent that you believe the "black rubric" was the problematic principle invalidating Anglican orders. They may be irregular, with respect to Roman orders, but it is possible that they are ontologically legitimate. Does Gavin have an opinion on that? How is that seen in Rome these days?
Wait. Pope Fancis and Archbishop Welby blessed each other? Is that a same sex blessing?
I think your humour is waisted in this chat room.....Ha
Did I hear correctly? Cranmer's 1552 Prayer Book did NOT contain the "Catholic" words of administration. They were there in 1549 but replaced in 1552 by the "in remembrance of me" words. Cranmer clearly wanted the "Zwinglian" words to prevail. He was of course dead before later revisions of the book were made with both sets of words retained.
The second phrase of Holy Communion was NOT Cranmer speaking, but Lambeth ~ 'to keep the peace the first phrase was for the High Church; the second sentence for the Low.' Dear Eminent Fr Ashenden, I do hope you join the Ordinariate. Because I think it was an extraordinary moment of petrine grace to lovingly invite orthodox Anglicans. Just please read the Ordinariate founding documents, specifically Benedict's Apostolic Constitution. It positively melts the heart to read his gracious, humble invitation! The fall of the Anglican Church to the Great Apostasy should not be related to the denial of Anglican orders, for shortly after Leo XIII's denial was graciously contradicted by the Orthodox hierarchs who VALIDATED the Orders!! The Pope's denial of orders was as political a decision as the Reformation Era refusal to grant Henry VIII his annulment!!I hope, your grrace, you could find it in your heart to LOVE the Church of England decades and centuries ago. I'm a Benedictine Associate of Nashdom Abbey. I swear your grace, after nearly three decades later, I have stayed for weeks on end of many Benedictine Abbies worldwide and I swear I've not EVER found a Catholic groups of monks who were as reborn, as full of the Holy Spirit and, endless moons, not a FRACTION of the sheer CHARITY of the monks of Nashdom long ago - God bless every single one of them, from Dom Gregory Dix on down to Dom Cuthbert the gatekeeper and aficiando of all things Orthodox. Again, after over two decades of combing through the RC Church and NEVER finding a welcome sign, by the grace of God I went further into Holy Orthodoxy, which is the CLOSEST way to the WAY of the Holy Apostles, indeed the sacred origin of their Faith, from the blessed hands of the Lord Jesus Christ. If you both want to read the true Church Dogmatics, I leave this space by recommending Fr Michael Pomazansky from Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville NY, the perfect doctrine in his Orthodox Dogmatics! God Bless you & his grace be joyfully yours!!
During Henry’s reign, it was only really a church in schism
There are so many things that I think are wrong with your argument. Firstly, Anglicanism is not a single denomination. It is a coalition of different protestants spiritualities. They don’t have the same understanding of ecclesiology, they believe different things about ministers, sacraments, Orders and authority -it is completely impossible without some form of foundation to draw them together in a coherent ecclesial expression. You can’t validate Orders where everyone has a different understanding of what the orders are.
There have been many attempts of course to introduce apostolic legitimacy, and whilst I have no idea what the Holy Spirit thinks of that, it must be clear that there is no such thing as a coherent ecclesiology that is Anglicanism - effectively, there is nothing that can be validated because of its internal coherence and self-contradiction
The traditional Roman liturgy is older than the Sarem Rite and various slightly different uses of York and Canterbury. Cramner rewrote the liturgy doing revisions. The Ordinariate Liturgy drawn up under Benedict XVI is more similar to the traditional Romsn Rite than the Novus Ordo. Yes Cramner used manipulativr contradiction. Luther held you could use words and keep externals but changed the meaning. Modernism uses this as well as in inventing Church speak. Francis snd Fernandez use ambiguity.
The 1964 liturgy is better as an alternative.
BUT, Bergoglio has been generous with the SSPX…isn’t THAT consistent (with regard Gavin’s point) with his meeting with Evangelicals? AND to take issue with Gavin regarding SJ James Martin; we in SSPX acknowledge firmly, clearly & openly that homosexuality is a Sin that Cry’s Out to Heaven.
AND I agree that the Rupnick abuse of Nuns Sin of Omission by Francis is EVIL!
It’s uncomfortable. How do Catholics handle the problem of saying the bishop of Rome is bishop of earth when he teaches error? It knocks the whole foundation loose. You can’t say that and insist he is the chief shepherd. There is nobody to be loyal to. Having all the eggs in one basket is detrimental to their faith.
I am Catholic. I am no fan of Henry 8, or his church. But, the Anglicans could teach us a few things. So could the Orthodox.
What does “Jungian heterodoxy” even mean? Sounds like gibberish to me. Wonder if anyone ever ran an experiment about his supposed ability to “look through eyes” which is a perfect example of the emotion based nature of evangelicalism. Kinda funny too when he brought up wanting to believe no one is in hell, guess he better not look into your archives Larry
Dr Ashenden was a Jungian. Sometimes he seems to use "Jungian heterodoxy" interchangeably with "Cultural Marxism". I sense he's trying to shed his past and atone for past errors. My diagnosis may be wrong and he can speak for himself.
Jungian heterodoxy means exactly what it says:- Jung presents himself as if he were a believer in Christianity, but he is, in fact, an agnostic parasite on Christianity undermining orthodoxy. Those who undermine orthodoxy do so with ‘heterodoxy.’
Jung helped propagate A worldview that Cultural Marxism has taken advantage of and is founded on, but they’re not the same thing.
It’s not entirely Jung’s own invention-since Gnosticism has been around for a very long time and he is perhaps its latest iteration.
Thanks for the useful clarification.
@@edwardbell9795 the second term is a fancy sounding thing that means nothing and the fact he use it interchangeably makes me even more suspicious of the first term having much content in his case either. What do the things he pushed have anything to do with being a “Jungian” anyhow?
שָׁוְא, יְדַבְּרוּ--אִישׁ אֶת-רֵעֵהוּ: שְׂפַת חֲלָקוֹת--בְּלֵב וָלֵב יְדַבֵּרוּ.
ד יַכְרֵת יְהוָה, כָּל-שִׂפְתֵי חֲלָקוֹת-- לָשׁוֹן, מְדַבֶּרֶת גְּדֹלוֹת.
ה אֲשֶׁר אָמְרוּ, לִלְשֹׁנֵנוּ נַגְבִּיר--שְׂפָתֵינוּ אִתָּנוּ: מִי אָדוֹן לָנוּ.
Some folk are lucky our pope leans on mercy above justice when it comes to the Lati rite folk. If St. John Paul II had been offered the same disrespect from them, they'd be excommunicated like the Lefevreans they're in bed with. Generosity? Calling the Holy Father the antichrist? Lying about child molesters that Pope Francis has removed in contrast to previous papacies. When you deal in lies.
❤😂⚓