Hey man, I'm new here too. I suggest you to read up on the definition of "warm" sound and "bright" sounds. Since they are common terminologies audiophiles use.
It's actually incredible how informative this video was. As a beginner audiophile all of this science is a lot in the beginning, which makes it quite a bit complex. But you explain it so well that I instantly got why what happens. Thank you so much.
I read a lot about impedance and i can't really understand the significant of it. This video totally crushed the impedance to the ground for the common people. It's so easy to understand. Thank you very much
Super useful info in all of your vids. You're the guy I think of now whenever I want real information on anything. Everyone else gives their opinion, while you just give the facts. Good stuff!
I'm not an audiophile or sound enthusiast, I just really like the sound of your voice. I appreciate the interesting niche your content falls into, and your commentary on audio stuff.
Finally! Enough of those "audiophile" headphone impression. We need to be more scientific to get the best out of our gears! Cheers for making this video
Can we all pause just to appreciate Julian Krause tutorials. If video games modeled theirs after Julian, I wouldn’t skip them so often, and when I don’t skip them, I wouldn’t be miserably bored 🤣😂 Julian has mad head sway, smooth voice, and great pacing. 100/100 I wouldn’t NOT like to skip tutorial “press X to replay tutorial” Xxxxxxxxxx
Thank you so much, a really awesome explanation, I have read a lot of online articles/forums from online "audio experts" who post their claims with no arguments whatsoever, but this has clarified everything regarding this topic for me.
Hi Julian. Thank you for this video, I didn't know that output impedance could affect frequency response. But, that leads me to a question. 1. I have an Original Mackie Big Knob (the 1st model that came out in 2004), and I still use it to this day. 2. It's Headphone output impedance (per the user manual) states that it is 150 Ohms. And it has (2) headphone jacks, each with their own attenuator/volume knob. 150 Ohms seems very high relative to what you're stating headphone amp impedance *should be to drive headphones properly. 3. I mostly use the following headphones: - Sony MDR 7506 - 63 ohms - Shure SRH440A - 40 ohms - Beyer Dynamic DT770 - 80 ohms I've been using the Big Knob so long I've just never paid any mind/attention to any impedance differences.....I assumed 19 years ago that the Big Knob was a Pro(sumer) device, it had dedicated headphone outputs, so they should be able to do what they were designed to do. And, the Sony MDR-7506 has been around a long time, so they were definitely around and with the same specs (63 ohms) when the Big Knob came out. I've never *noticed any difference in audio quality or frequency response of my headphones when using ANY of these headphones in different outputs: Mackie Big Knob. Directly out of laptop. Audio console (X32, Yamaha QL5, Allen and Heath QU32), or when using any of my headphones when monitoring ANY audio output from other things like Atomos Ninja/Shogun, Whirwhind DA-2, etc. So, my questions: 1. Wouldn't Mackie have known this potential impedance mis-match when they put out the Big Knob? It's never seemed to cause any issues. 2. Is the 150 ohm impedance on the Big Knob REALLY affecting my headphone frequency response? I enjoy your videos and have learned a lot from them! Keep it up, I'm hoping you can help me with my conundrum here. Thank you Julian
Hi Marcus, glad you enjoy my videos 😊 1. Yes, many manufacturers are aware of this but it is usually a tradeoff they are willing to take because with a higher output impedance the amount of power that is delivered to different headphones is more consistent. This means, there is a much higher chance that you always get to use the full range of the volume dial. If the output impedance is low, then you might only turn up the volume a bit to already get low impedance headphones to very loud listing volumes while with high impedance headphones you need to use the full range of the volume dial. Also, there was a standard defined in 1996 which stated a standard output impedance of 120 Ohm but I’m not quite sure how that made it into a standard. So, manufactures are aware this topic but often trade frequency response accuracy against the convenience of being able to have a more consistent range available on the volume dial. 2. If the output impedance does have a negative impact, depends heavily on the particular pair of headphones you use. If the impedance of the headphones varies heavily, the frequency response is going to be much more negatively impacted compared to headphones that have a more consistent impedance value. For example, planar magnetic headphones usually have the same impedance across the frequency range and because of that their frequency response are hardly impacted by a higher output impedance. Impedances across the frequency range for dynamic drivers on the other hand can vary quite a bit and that’s the problem with a high output impedance, it can have negative effect but this must not always be the case. So, you end up with a huge uncertainty and it’s impossible for me to say if there is an audible impact in your case.
@@JulianKrause Hi Julian. Thank YOU for your very speedy response, I know it took me a while to get back to you, but I really appreciate your input here. I'm still using and will continue using both my Mackie Big Knob and my trusty Sony MDR-7506 headphones.....and I'll have to read up more on headphone impedance. Thank you again, cheers!
Thanks Julian. It's the clearest explanation I found so far as a total newbie. That being said, it's still confusing as hell for me. A lot of people are telling that high impedance headphones need "enough power" to be driven properly and on the other side you say high impedance headphones draw less current, which seems logical because we're talking about resistance (right?). They also say that High impedance headphones require higher voltage sources and low impedance headphones require higher current sources. Maybe I don't understand the difference between voltage and current... I have a DT 770 pro 80 ohms and I don't understand why it sounds so good directly plugged on my laptop and no so good when connected to my h4n phones output and my smartphone. If I had to choose an audio interface I really don't understand how I should understand the output impedance so that it matches my headphones impedance. Can you give me a few insights? Thanks ;) !
You would want a headphone amplifier with at most 10ohm output impedance for it to not have an effect on the frequency response of your headphones. Why do you like it in your laptop compared to other sources?
Short answer: your laptop probably has a lot more voltage available than the h4n and smartphone. Battery devices can't deliver enough voltage for higher-impedance phones, they expect to see ordinary consumer 32 ohm phones. Output impedance is rarely the issue.
This is a fantastically clear and concise video explaining the importance of impedance matching between headphone amp and headphones. Great job Julian, keep em coming! Gained a subscriber. 👍🏼
Thanks for the great explanation! Finally i know why my ATH E40 (12 ohms IEM) sounds wrong/fatiguing in the 2k when paired with my Focusrite Scarlett Solo 2nd Gen, but it sounds beautifully flat when plugged directly to my laptop, never had this issue before with my old ATH M40X.
Well 99% of laptops and such also have 10 Ohm output impedance just like most Focusrite interfaces. The popular mainboard Realtek chips need that series impedance to keep the outputs from oscillating and very nearly committing suicide, you don't wanna go touch them when that's missing, ouch ouch ouch. Focusrite must be doing it for arbitrary rather than purely technical reasons.
This was a perfect video. I didn't understand anything before watching this video and now I understand everything. Some people just cant explain things well but you're very good at it (: Liked and Subscribed! (:
Thank you! I am new to sound recording and you made this confusing (explained by manuals and other pros) issue perfectly clear. I will be back here when I need recording questions answered.
dude I found you through the ssl 2 audio interface review. I am really surprised how much detail and accurate information you put into there videos. Cheers from Stuttgart ;)
I have the MOTU M6 audio interface in my cart along with a few pairs of headphones. (I hear the MOTU M6 headphone amp provides 190mW @ 55ohms). A (seemingly wise) TH-cam audiophile told me to "pair the M6 with 80Ω headphones". ...but a MOTU sales rep said that "headphones over 200Ω is optimal". Julian says that you should x8 the amp impedance with headphone impedance. ...but another tech TH-camr said to _match_ the amp/headphone impedance. _WHAT GIVES!?_
Great video. I wish, though you would provide more ACTUAL set ups like if I happen tp have dt770 80 ohm than my sound card device should have no more than this or that amount of ohms of impedance< like fore example this Roland / Steinberg/ Focusrite/ whatever make of brand ... There is a lot of beginners / enthusiasts in sound production watching you with their mouth agape :)
Amazing info, Julian. That's actually what I was looking for. Thank you for that. I understood everything after I reviewed this at second time :) I have a question for you. So, if the lowest amp's output impedance is the best and the most universal, why are not every single amp is designed to have as little output impedance as possible?
Hey, it is more difficult and usually more costly to build a well performing headphone amp with a low output impedance. That's why you can often find high output impedances on cheaper equipment.
A positively great video - I didn't really understand the relationship between headphone and amp impedance, and this is the best explanation I've found. I have a Zoom H4n and it got me wondering about the headphone impedance and output voltage for it, but I can't seem to find that information anywhere online.
What's missing from this explanation is to show how much the actual sound output from the headphones changes when the amp's Z-out doesn't respect the 1/8 rule and is e.g. comparable to the headphones' Z. This and a few more details can be found in Solderdude's article "resistance, impedance and other issues" - basically it's not as simple as "lower Z-out is always better", nor as strict as "if Z-out is higher than 1/8 it will sound bad". Could be that Z-out as high as 1/2 of the headphones will produce an inaudible FR difference in most cases.
I think what you really want to be calculating is the damping factor (DF), which is the ratio of the output impedance looking into the amplifier output, to the load impedance, at given frequencies or over a range of frequencies. There are more refined versions of this definition. The higher the damping factor, the better the damping of excessive loudspeaker movement by the output impedance of the amplifier. A DF of 1000 is considered very good, and high-end and professional PA amps usually have a DF of up to 10,000. The DF is set by various factors in the design of (mainly) the output stage of the amplifier. An amplifier with a high DF will minimize frequency response variations of its load, leading to better sound and higher power-transfer efficiency from amp to load. Unfortunately, most headphone amplifier outputs are not specified regarding their damping factor, and few are specified for their output impedance over frequency. Your approach is also a very good way of explaining the issue.
@@JulianKrause Exactly, and it's more critical the lower the load impedance. A high impedance phone (300-600) draws less current and damping factors will be high by nature, but those high-impedance loads don't even require a good DF. The low impedance loads are the most sensitive to the DF, as they draw more current, thus making the DF more relevant.
So you're saying that headphones are exclusively designed for 0 output impedance sources. But allegedly there are is a standard, that could be DIN 45596, IEC 61938, DIN-EN 61938, DIN-EN 60268-7, i don't know, i haven't checked, that specifies the headphone amplifier output impedance to be 120 Ohm, regardless of headphone impedance. Correspondingly, headphones "should" be designed with such a high-impedance source in mind. This is even the case for a reason. You might be connecting a load anywhere between 16 Ohm and 600 Ohm to that amplifier, and correspondingly, with a 0-Ohm output, the output power could differ by a factor of dozens, which makes either some headphones too silent to be useful on a given amp, or others prone to take damage or blow your head off. One could say it's not particularly user friendly. Well apparently adding a series resistance like that will radically flatten out the power difference, it would only come down to maybe a factor of 2. Granted, for headphones that might end up being connected to a phone or a Walkman, it would be entirely nonsensical if they were designed for such a high impedance... Also in my experience, adding resistance in series with headphones sounds pretty unfortunate, and somehow seemingly not just the frequency response, maybe the transient response too. Anyway the existence of a standard - which is apparently more or less implemented by some devices, like those Steinbergs at 90 Ohm - honestly close enough - implies that by all reason, not all headphones are designed for 0 output impedance. Beats me which though!
Very clear explanation, thanks. But it leads to the inevitable question 'why do high impedance headphone amps exist?' or put another way, 'What is the advantage of a high impedance amp?'
Well, it is often down to cost. Designing a proper low impedance headphone amp is typically more expensive and complex. For example, if your amp delivers a very high amount of power and has a low output impedance, there is a risk that you can fry sensitive headphones. To prevent this, you would have to deploy current limiting of the amp which not necessarily easy to do. Or you could simply slap a resistor of e.g. 20 Ohms in series with the output. This is what you can see in many cheaper headphone amps. This of course increases the output impedance but it also protects sensitive headphones and is very easy to do.
@@JulianKrausethanks for the clarification. okay, so H.I. amps maybe cheaper, and safer to use and match, but do not 'scale' as well as L.I. amps, with regards to headphone Impedance?
Thanks for the enlightenment! While I am aware of the electrical relationship of input and output impedance and power transfer, Didn't much think of it in the context of audio gear. If I ever purchase a high grade audio amp, I'll keep this in mind so that I can use the same equipment effectively across various devices and see how they compare. While slightly off topic because it wasn't covered in this specific video, amps scale differently when it comes to drawing power, moving loads, based on the load's own impedance and the amp's as the audio signal moves across different frequency+volume change - the transient response and dynamics, gives a headphones and amp combination its unique nature that should provide a nice synergy.
I learned so much about things that I had wanted to know more about for a long time. And you narrative style is super! Thx for making and sharing your highly educational, entertaining, and informative youtube videos.
This is really very interesting. Are you aware that you say the exact opposite of what about 90% YT videos are saying ? Most say a high impedance headphone will need MORE current (I). But I have this feeling you might be right against all the others since you really seem to know what you are talking about (and your demo sets proves what you are saying). Thanks a lot ! So, I have a T+A headphone amp that has: - 8 Ohms impedance and - can give 200mA current (class A). I am hesitating between: - Sennheiser hd800s (300 ohms) and - Hifiman Arya Organic (16 ohms). I understand the best fit for my amp would be the hd800s. (Just talking current matching). I understand personal acoustic choice is something else.
Invaluable information. Cherry on top would have been to see some 'proof'/elaboration for your 8x rule of thumb, e.g. frequency chart(s) with intermediate amp/hp impedance ratios, rather than just the very good and very bad case.
So based on this, on motherboard audio (high impedance), headphones with high impedance would have more correct response? However, people always say that high impedance headphones are more difficult to drive and need an amp, which kinda contradicts it. Or does it mean that even though the response curve is better, there won't be enough power and the headphones will be too quiet?
Quite interesting, thank you. I still find that there is a discrepancy between what the 'output' vendors announce as opposed to what the 'input' vendors announce. There is not single lookup table saying with this amount of mW, Ohm, V, dBu and dBV output you can connect input devices with these specification (x, v, z with a nominal SPL maximum of xxx) not to mention the 'actual' mW to 'actual' Ohm relation/calculation. Could just be me. I need and would very much appreciate your input. I am in the process of finding headphones I can use with both my field-recorder and DAW. It looks on paper as if the field-recorder can feed the headphones (its the +7.8dBu that throw me a bit off) or if I should choose headphones with a lower impedance (80 Ohm). Field recorder Stereo Out: 3.5mm TRS stereo unbalanced, 500 ohm output, +7.8dBu max output level Headphones Out: 3.5mm TRS stereo unbalanced, 300mW + 300mW, for use with any impedance headphones Headphone Impedance: 250 Ohm Nominal SPL: 96 dB Power handling capacity: 100 mW Much(!) appreciated. /Per
I went from K240 Studio which has that significant impedance bump at 100 Hz to DT880 250 Ohm which has almost flat impedance graph and I was surprised to hear that bass boost became even worse. It's a mystery to me.
Well, this opens some new views on reality for me. I always thought that low impedance headphones are easier for an amplifier, now I see it is the opposite.
I haven't seen anyone ask this, and it seems rather important. If you happen to own one of the interfaces with a high impedance headphone output, wouldn't it be worthwhile to purchase a dedicated headphone amp (for example the Mackie HM-4 which has a 3 ohm impedance) and insert that between your line outs and headphones?
It is not just frequency response that's affected by a high output impedance, the damping factor is also greatly reduced. When the damping factor is too low, the bass will take on a loose, flabby and uncontrolled character, with any resonances magnified, leading to that horrible boomy, two note, bass effect.
Thank you for the clear explanation! I need to ask, why do some premium amps have 100 Ohms impedance? Some headphones are made to sound 'best' with these amps. Beyerdynamic is one example, their 250/600 ohm headphones are made for their 100 ohm amps.
Since you’re responding pretty fast, I’d like to ask one more question to you, Julian. I want to sort out with integral audio interfaces’ headpnones amps and headphones matching. I’m wondering if the interface I’m working with (Focusrite Saffire Pro 26) would give enough clear sound to Beyerdynamics DT 770 Pro 250 Ohm. I was searching for such info all around various forums. And all the explanation I found there looks like “yes, this interface will drive these cans” or “no, it won’t “. I’m writing you, because I know you get into details. I want to know something like a formula that would say if a pair of headphones X would sound its best if connected to the headphones output of the audio interface Y. Yes, in this video you told there should be a certain relation between the amp’s output impedance and the headphones’ impedance. But what about the sensitivity of headphones? It also can differ from one pair to another. In a nutshell, my question is how to 100% define if a pair of headphones will sound its best with an audio interface. Thank you in advance.
@@beatsbycolorblind2 yep, I bought Motu M4 and DT 990 Pro. Sounds great to me. I’ve quit trying to dig as deep as possible into the theory and decided to trust my ears and stick rather to practical results
I've just ordered a pair of the 770 bayerdynamic 250 ohms and I have a Scarlett 2i2 , so if I understood properly your video ,I've made a good choice? Thanks for the video btw I think is the best on this matter on the entire TH-cam
Super useful! Just to confirm: I will get a really low cost audio interface and then a Beyerdynamic DT 990 to monitor with... That oughta work, right? Say, what are you using to measure with? I would happily do that if it's not crazy $ to consider... What gets measured gets improved, right?
Hey, thanks for the donation! Yes, the DT990 are not particularly hard to drive and cheaper interfaces should be fine. But I wouldn't go too low, otherwise you might have other issues like background noise or not enough power to dive the headphones. But for the most part, anything at about the 100 dollar mark should be capable of providing an excellent audio quality with the DT990. If you are wondering how I made the measurements, I used a dScope M1 audio analyzer. But you can so the same measurements with a simple audio interface and free software like REW.
The think that I don’t understand is when listening to music or watching TH-cam videos any headphone sounds fine with my Scarlett the problem starts with using plugins
In the high source impedence graphs with a low load impedence. Why do you get a bass boost when headphones typically have a high impedance in that region, which implies it needs less current in those frequencies and should have a cleaner response.
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Thank you very much for the real info here. I had enough of "warm", "dark", "juicy" as amps rewiev conclusions...
Idiots. Their subjective perception of reality means nothing to all of us. Measurement units are a must in this kind of review.
You don't like warm, dark, juicy??? Sounds perfect to me.
Hey man, I'm new here too. I suggest you to read up on the definition of "warm" sound and "bright" sounds. Since they are common terminologies audiophiles use.
@@tao7795 Those therms mean nothing. Professionals use measuring units, audiophiles just listen to music, they are not professionals nor musicians.
@@BojanBojovic Ture. Data is more convincing. I just cannot understand yet lol
It's actually incredible how informative this video was. As a beginner audiophile all of this science is a lot in the beginning, which makes it quite a bit complex. But you explain it so well that I instantly got why what happens. Thank you so much.
I read a lot about impedance and i can't really understand the significant of it. This video totally crushed the impedance to the ground for the common people. It's so easy to understand. Thank you very much
Super useful info in all of your vids. You're the guy I think of now whenever I want real information on anything. Everyone else gives their opinion, while you just give the facts. Good stuff!
I'm not an audiophile or sound enthusiast, I just really like the sound of your voice. I appreciate the interesting niche your content falls into, and your commentary on audio stuff.
hahahahahahahha
Finally! Enough of those "audiophile" headphone impression. We need to be more scientific to get the best out of our gears! Cheers for making this video
This channel is quickly becoming my favorite. Great information presented in a way we can all understand.
This is the best explanation of high/low impedance and its effects on amp/headphone combinations I've ever seen or read. Thanks!
Can we all pause just to appreciate Julian Krause tutorials. If video games modeled theirs after Julian, I wouldn’t skip them so often, and when I don’t skip them, I wouldn’t be miserably bored 🤣😂
Julian has mad head sway, smooth voice, and great pacing.
100/100 I wouldn’t NOT like to skip tutorial “press X to replay tutorial”
Xxxxxxxxxx
Thank you so much, a really awesome explanation, I have read a lot of online articles/forums from online "audio experts" who post their claims with no arguments whatsoever, but this has clarified everything regarding this topic for me.
Your explanation of impedance is the best! Because you use the verb impede and tell us what it impedes!
That last minute of the video was the best explanation I have heard about how to relate your amp and headphones!
Once again Mr K, you hit it out of the park! I always enjoy the education and information I get from you! Thank you!
Hi Julian. Thank you for this video, I didn't know that output impedance could affect frequency response. But, that leads me to a question.
1. I have an Original Mackie Big Knob (the 1st model that came out in 2004), and I still use it to this day.
2. It's Headphone output impedance (per the user manual) states that it is 150 Ohms. And it has (2) headphone jacks, each with their own attenuator/volume knob. 150 Ohms seems very high relative to what you're stating headphone amp impedance *should be to drive headphones properly.
3. I mostly use the following headphones:
- Sony MDR 7506 - 63 ohms
- Shure SRH440A - 40 ohms
- Beyer Dynamic DT770 - 80 ohms
I've been using the Big Knob so long I've just never paid any mind/attention to any impedance differences.....I assumed 19 years ago that the Big Knob was a Pro(sumer) device, it had dedicated headphone outputs, so they should be able to do what they were designed to do. And, the Sony MDR-7506 has been around a long time, so they were definitely around and with the same specs (63 ohms) when the Big Knob came out.
I've never *noticed any difference in audio quality or frequency response of my headphones when using ANY of these headphones in different outputs: Mackie Big Knob. Directly out of laptop. Audio console (X32, Yamaha QL5, Allen and Heath QU32), or when using any of my headphones when monitoring ANY audio output from other things like Atomos Ninja/Shogun, Whirwhind DA-2, etc.
So, my questions:
1. Wouldn't Mackie have known this potential impedance mis-match when they put out the Big Knob? It's never seemed to cause any issues.
2. Is the 150 ohm impedance on the Big Knob REALLY affecting my headphone frequency response?
I enjoy your videos and have learned a lot from them! Keep it up, I'm hoping you can help me with my conundrum here.
Thank you Julian
Hi Marcus, glad you enjoy my videos 😊
1. Yes, many manufacturers are aware of this but it is usually a tradeoff they are willing to take because with a higher output impedance the amount of power that is delivered to different headphones is more consistent. This means, there is a much higher chance that you always get to use the full range of the volume dial. If the output impedance is low, then you might only turn up the volume a bit to already get low impedance headphones to very loud listing volumes while with high impedance headphones you need to use the full range of the volume dial. Also, there was a standard defined in 1996 which stated a standard output impedance of 120 Ohm but I’m not quite sure how that made it into a standard. So, manufactures are aware this topic but often trade frequency response accuracy against the convenience of being able to have a more consistent range available on the volume dial.
2. If the output impedance does have a negative impact, depends heavily on the particular pair of headphones you use. If the impedance of the headphones varies heavily, the frequency response is going to be much more negatively impacted compared to headphones that have a more consistent impedance value. For example, planar magnetic headphones usually have the same impedance across the frequency range and because of that their frequency response are hardly impacted by a higher output impedance. Impedances across the frequency range for dynamic drivers on the other hand can vary quite a bit and that’s the problem with a high output impedance, it can have negative effect but this must not always be the case. So, you end up with a huge uncertainty and it’s impossible for me to say if there is an audible impact in your case.
@@JulianKrause Hi Julian. Thank YOU for your very speedy response, I know it took me a while to get back to you, but I really appreciate your input here. I'm still using and will continue using both my Mackie Big Knob and my trusty Sony MDR-7506 headphones.....and I'll have to read up more on headphone impedance. Thank you again, cheers!
Thanks Julian. It's the clearest explanation I found so far as a total newbie. That being said, it's still confusing as hell for me. A lot of people are telling that high impedance headphones need "enough power" to be driven properly and on the other side you say high impedance headphones draw less current, which seems logical because we're talking about resistance (right?). They also say that High impedance headphones require higher voltage sources and low impedance headphones require higher current sources. Maybe I don't understand the difference between voltage and current... I have a DT 770 pro 80 ohms and I don't understand why it sounds so good directly plugged on my laptop and no so good when connected to my h4n phones output and my smartphone. If I had to choose an audio interface I really don't understand how I should understand the output impedance so that it matches my headphones impedance. Can you give me a few insights? Thanks ;) !
You would want a headphone amplifier with at most 10ohm output impedance for it to not have an effect on the frequency response of your headphones.
Why do you like it in your laptop compared to other sources?
Short answer: your laptop probably has a lot more voltage available than the h4n and smartphone. Battery devices can't deliver enough voltage for higher-impedance phones, they expect to see ordinary consumer 32 ohm phones. Output impedance is rarely the issue.
This is a fantastically clear and concise video explaining the importance of impedance matching between headphone amp and headphones. Great job Julian, keep em coming! Gained a subscriber. 👍🏼
Fantastic channel, real knowledge here, none of that warm, punchy, dark, bright voodoo nonsense, real numbers and facts.
This whole vid is so much gold if you're doing music stuff! Schools should by this video! Thanks again mister Krause
After binge watching your content, I decided got 120 ohm headphones to match my i/o and I just noticed your background music
A good and accurate explanation that most people should be able to understand.
Finally I could figure out properly the output impedance and load impedance....thanks a lot, it was still a mess in my head...now how DAC works.
Thanks for the great explanation! Finally i know why my ATH E40 (12 ohms IEM) sounds wrong/fatiguing in the 2k when paired with my Focusrite Scarlett Solo 2nd Gen, but it sounds beautifully flat when plugged directly to my laptop, never had this issue before with my old ATH M40X.
Well 99% of laptops and such also have 10 Ohm output impedance just like most Focusrite interfaces. The popular mainboard Realtek chips need that series impedance to keep the outputs from oscillating and very nearly committing suicide, you don't wanna go touch them when that's missing, ouch ouch ouch. Focusrite must be doing it for arbitrary rather than purely technical reasons.
@@SianaGearz Siana do you know if Scarlett Solo 3 Works fine with a 32 ohms headphone??
This was a perfect video. I didn't understand anything before watching this video and now I understand everything. Some people just cant explain things well but you're very good at it (:
Liked and Subscribed! (:
Thanks very concised and clear information that are necessary without too much complicated jargons and technical babble.
Thank you! I am new to sound recording and you made this confusing (explained by manuals and other pros) issue perfectly clear. I will be back here when I need recording questions answered.
You're really good at explaining things man. Keep up the solid work. Definitely subscribed!
What a fantastic tutorial on how to pair proper amp to proper headphones!
dude I found you through the ssl 2 audio interface review. I am really surprised how much detail and accurate information you put into there videos. Cheers from Stuttgart ;)
Excellent!!!! Very Much Thanks to you and your work!!! Finally I've understand the importance of Impedance in relation to headphones and amps!
This was fantastic mate, subscribed
This was summed up perfectly.
taking a dry subject and making it dryer,lol, but alot of good information !!!! tx julian
Incredibly helpful. You deserve more views
Thank you very much, I finally understood why my headphones boost the bass on some amplifiers
Wow. I’m now retroactively thanking all the sound engineers I’ve employed over the years
All good points. Thank You. Now let's think about the amplifier's voltage output.
Good video Julian, keep hitting these bangers my dude
Awesome, finally I understood whats going on with impedance. Thank you.
I have the MOTU M6 audio interface in my cart along with a few pairs of headphones.
(I hear the MOTU M6 headphone amp provides 190mW @ 55ohms).
A (seemingly wise) TH-cam audiophile told me to "pair the M6 with 80Ω headphones".
...but a MOTU sales rep said that "headphones over 200Ω is optimal".
Julian says that you should x8 the amp impedance with headphone impedance.
...but another tech TH-camr said to _match_ the amp/headphone impedance.
_WHAT GIVES!?_
Great video. I wish, though you would provide more ACTUAL set ups like if I happen tp have dt770 80 ohm than my sound card device should have no more than this or that amount of ohms of impedance< like fore example this Roland / Steinberg/ Focusrite/ whatever make of brand ... There is a lot of beginners / enthusiasts in sound production watching you with their mouth agape :)
Amazing info, Julian. That's actually what I was looking for. Thank you for that. I understood everything after I reviewed this at second time :)
I have a question for you.
So, if the lowest amp's output impedance is the best and the most universal, why are not every single amp is designed to have as little output impedance as possible?
Hey, it is more difficult and usually more costly to build a well performing headphone amp with a low output impedance. That's why you can often find high output impedances on cheaper equipment.
@@JulianKrause got it. Thanks for such a fast response
This is the best audio channel
Thank you Julian. You ROCK 😀
A positively great video - I didn't really understand the relationship between headphone and amp impedance, and this is the best explanation I've found.
I have a Zoom H4n and it got me wondering about the headphone impedance and output voltage for it, but I can't seem to find that information anywhere online.
What's missing from this explanation is to show how much the actual sound output from the headphones changes when the amp's Z-out doesn't respect the 1/8 rule and is e.g. comparable to the headphones' Z. This and a few more details can be found in Solderdude's article "resistance, impedance and other issues" - basically it's not as simple as "lower Z-out is always better", nor as strict as "if Z-out is higher than 1/8 it will sound bad". Could be that Z-out as high as 1/2 of the headphones will produce an inaudible FR difference in most cases.
I think what you really want to be calculating is the damping factor (DF), which is the ratio of the output impedance looking into the amplifier output, to the load impedance, at given frequencies or over a range of frequencies. There are more refined versions of this definition.
The higher the damping factor, the better the damping of excessive loudspeaker movement by the output impedance of the amplifier. A DF of 1000 is considered very good, and high-end and professional PA amps usually have a DF of up to 10,000. The DF is set by various factors in the design of (mainly) the output stage of the amplifier. An amplifier with a high DF will minimize frequency response variations of its load, leading to better sound and higher power-transfer efficiency from amp to load.
Unfortunately, most headphone amplifier outputs are not specified regarding their damping factor, and few are specified for their output impedance over frequency. Your approach is also a very good way of explaining the issue.
Good call, with a low output impedance you ensure that you always have a relatively high dampening factor, regardless which headphones you use.
@@JulianKrause Exactly, and it's more critical the lower the load impedance. A high impedance phone (300-600) draws less current and damping factors will be high by nature, but those high-impedance loads don't even require a good DF. The low impedance loads are the most sensitive to the DF, as they draw more current, thus making the DF more relevant.
Thank you, really helpful buying advice. I was considering 2 identical headphones, the only difference was the impedance.
Thank you very much. This made a lot of sense
So you're saying that headphones are exclusively designed for 0 output impedance sources.
But allegedly there are is a standard, that could be DIN 45596, IEC 61938, DIN-EN 61938, DIN-EN 60268-7, i don't know, i haven't checked, that specifies the headphone amplifier output impedance to be 120 Ohm, regardless of headphone impedance. Correspondingly, headphones "should" be designed with such a high-impedance source in mind.
This is even the case for a reason. You might be connecting a load anywhere between 16 Ohm and 600 Ohm to that amplifier, and correspondingly, with a 0-Ohm output, the output power could differ by a factor of dozens, which makes either some headphones too silent to be useful on a given amp, or others prone to take damage or blow your head off. One could say it's not particularly user friendly. Well apparently adding a series resistance like that will radically flatten out the power difference, it would only come down to maybe a factor of 2.
Granted, for headphones that might end up being connected to a phone or a Walkman, it would be entirely nonsensical if they were designed for such a high impedance... Also in my experience, adding resistance in series with headphones sounds pretty unfortunate, and somehow seemingly not just the frequency response, maybe the transient response too. Anyway the existence of a standard - which is apparently more or less implemented by some devices, like those Steinbergs at 90 Ohm - honestly close enough - implies that by all reason, not all headphones are designed for 0 output impedance. Beats me which though!
Very clear explanation, thanks. But it leads to the inevitable question 'why do high impedance headphone amps exist?' or put another way, 'What is the advantage of a high impedance amp?'
Well, it is often down to cost. Designing a proper low impedance headphone amp is typically more expensive and complex. For example, if your amp delivers a very high amount of power and has a low output impedance, there is a risk that you can fry sensitive headphones. To prevent this, you would have to deploy current limiting of the amp which not necessarily easy to do. Or you could simply slap a resistor of e.g. 20 Ohms in series with the output. This is what you can see in many cheaper headphone amps. This of course increases the output impedance but it also protects sensitive headphones and is very easy to do.
@@JulianKrausethanks for the clarification. okay, so H.I. amps maybe cheaper, and safer to use and match, but do not 'scale' as well as L.I. amps, with regards to headphone Impedance?
Wow! Finally an explanation that makes sense. 👏 Kudos!
Excellent. I required a refresher and this was just about perfect. Thank you.
Thanks for the enlightenment! While I am aware of the electrical relationship of input and output impedance and power transfer, Didn't much think of it in the context of audio gear. If I ever purchase a high grade audio amp, I'll keep this in mind so that I can use the same equipment effectively across various devices and see how they compare.
While slightly off topic because it wasn't covered in this specific video, amps scale differently when it comes to drawing power, moving loads, based on the load's own impedance and the amp's as the audio signal moves across different frequency+volume change - the transient response and dynamics, gives a headphones and amp combination its unique nature that should provide a nice synergy.
You use your monitor as a light and text background. Good 👌
Don't know how this one missed my sub box. Great explanation!
I learned so much about things that I had wanted to know more about for a long time. And you narrative style is super! Thx for making and sharing your highly educational, entertaining, and informative youtube videos.
This demystifies this stuff so much, excellent
This is so helpful, you are very good at explaining things clearly
This is really very interesting.
Are you aware that you say the exact opposite of what about 90% YT videos are saying ?
Most say a high impedance headphone will need MORE current (I).
But I have this feeling you might be right against all the others since you really seem to know what you are talking about (and your demo sets proves what you are saying). Thanks a lot !
So, I have a T+A headphone amp that has:
- 8 Ohms impedance and
- can give 200mA current (class A).
I am hesitating between:
- Sennheiser hd800s (300 ohms)
and
- Hifiman Arya Organic (16 ohms).
I understand the best fit for my amp would be the hd800s.
(Just talking current matching).
I understand personal acoustic choice is something else.
Headphones that have low sensitivity need higher current
I love your videos and your knowledge.
Can you make a video on the Crabborn EC-1 min pre’s please
Excellent video Julian! Really useful info here.
Thank you very much for this excellent video!!! Its very useful and the topic explained very well.
Invaluable information. Cherry on top would have been to see some 'proof'/elaboration for your 8x rule of thumb, e.g. frequency chart(s) with intermediate amp/hp impedance ratios, rather than just the very good and very bad case.
Thank you very much. I finally understand this :)
Great explanation. Thank you.
Very clear! Thank you!
Terrific video. Thanks.
So based on this, on motherboard audio (high impedance), headphones with high impedance would have more correct response? However, people always say that high impedance headphones are more difficult to drive and need an amp, which kinda contradicts it. Or does it mean that even though the response curve is better, there won't be enough power and the headphones will be too quiet?
Quite interesting, thank you. I still find that there is a discrepancy between what the 'output' vendors announce as opposed to what the 'input' vendors announce. There is not single lookup table saying with this amount of mW, Ohm, V, dBu and dBV output you can connect input devices with these specification (x, v, z with a nominal SPL maximum of xxx) not to mention the 'actual' mW to 'actual' Ohm relation/calculation. Could just be me.
I need and would very much appreciate your input. I am in the process of finding headphones I can use with both my field-recorder and DAW. It looks on paper as if the field-recorder can feed the headphones (its the +7.8dBu that throw me a bit off) or if I should choose headphones with a lower impedance (80 Ohm).
Field recorder
Stereo Out: 3.5mm TRS stereo unbalanced, 500 ohm output, +7.8dBu max output level
Headphones Out: 3.5mm TRS stereo unbalanced, 300mW + 300mW, for use with any impedance headphones
Headphone
Impedance: 250 Ohm
Nominal SPL: 96 dB
Power handling capacity: 100 mW
Much(!) appreciated.
/Per
I went from K240 Studio which has that significant impedance bump at 100 Hz to DT880 250 Ohm which has almost flat impedance graph and I was surprised to hear that bass boost became even worse. It's a mystery to me.
Very useful and simple to understand
Well, this opens some new views on reality for me. I always thought that low impedance headphones are easier for an amplifier, now I see it is the opposite.
I haven't seen anyone ask this, and it seems rather important. If you happen to own one of the interfaces with a high impedance headphone output, wouldn't it be worthwhile to purchase a dedicated headphone amp (for example the Mackie HM-4 which has a 3 ohm impedance) and insert that between your line outs and headphones?
Amazing video! By far the best on TH-cam. What software have you used for measurements?
Thanks, I used a Spectral Measurement dScope M1 for the measurements.
@@JulianKrause what was the output impedance of the amps you used for the examples?
Thanks! Very interesting.
Great video! Thank you! Blessings..
Thanks for the insight. You surely know how to teach something. Keep it up.
I thumbs up before I watch!
Thank you
It is not just frequency response that's affected by a high output impedance, the damping factor is also greatly reduced. When the damping factor is too low, the bass will take on a loose, flabby and uncontrolled character, with any resonances magnified, leading to that horrible boomy, two note, bass effect.
Thank you Julian Krause. :)
Very interesting video ! Thanks for making it !
Very useful and interesting video.
That helped. Thanks.
Thank you for the clear explanation! I need to ask, why do some premium amps have 100 Ohms impedance? Some headphones are made to sound 'best' with these amps. Beyerdynamic is one example, their 250/600 ohm headphones are made for their 100 ohm amps.
They probably can deliver huge voltage so they are equipped with serial resistor to "flatten" a loudness difference between high and low impedance hp.
What are the impedance of high and low headphone amp you used? Without a number to define low and high, what you said is rather pointless to me.
perfect video
Beyond excellent! Thanks.
Great video Julian. Cheers, Dave.
Concised and great! Thank you! So does high impedance amps have some advantages?
saludos desde Ecuador gracias....¡¡¡ aprendi...¡¡¡
Awesome explanation, could you do a video explaining tube amp impedance?
Since you’re responding pretty fast, I’d like to ask one more question to you, Julian.
I want to sort out with integral audio interfaces’ headpnones amps and headphones matching.
I’m wondering if the interface I’m working with (Focusrite Saffire Pro 26) would give enough clear sound to Beyerdynamics DT 770 Pro 250 Ohm.
I was searching for such info all around various forums. And all the explanation I found there looks like “yes, this interface will drive these cans” or “no, it won’t “.
I’m writing you, because I know you get into details.
I want to know something like a formula that would say if a pair of headphones X would sound its best if connected to the headphones output of the audio interface Y.
Yes, in this video you told there should be a certain relation between the amp’s output impedance and the headphones’ impedance.
But what about the sensitivity of headphones? It also can differ from one pair to another.
In a nutshell, my question is how to 100% define if a pair of headphones will sound its best with an audio interface.
Thank you in advance.
sir did u choose ur amp or interface cuz um planning to buy same headphone. Hope u got ur answer
@@beatsbycolorblind2 yep, I bought Motu M4 and DT 990 Pro. Sounds great to me.
I’ve quit trying to dig as deep as possible into the theory and decided to trust my ears and stick rather to practical results
@@lepeher3179 did u calibrate or eq them ?
@@beatsbycolorblind2 no, I use them as is. Sometimes I apply the Sonarworks Reference 4 plugin.
Thank you, very detailed and informative!
This was a great video, thank you!
I've just ordered a pair of the 770 bayerdynamic 250 ohms and I have a Scarlett 2i2 , so if I understood properly your video ,I've made a good choice? Thanks for the video btw I think is the best on this matter on the entire TH-cam
How do does sound?
@@jorgeguitar2540 good 👍
Super useful!
Just to confirm: I will get a really low cost audio interface and then a Beyerdynamic DT 990 to monitor with... That oughta work, right? Say, what are you using to measure with? I would happily do that if it's not crazy $ to consider... What gets measured gets improved, right?
Hey, thanks for the donation! Yes, the DT990 are not particularly hard to drive and cheaper interfaces should be fine. But I wouldn't go too low, otherwise you might have other issues like background noise or not enough power to dive the headphones. But for the most part, anything at about the 100 dollar mark should be capable of providing an excellent audio quality with the DT990. If you are wondering how I made the measurements, I used a dScope M1 audio analyzer. But you can so the same measurements with a simple audio interface and free software like REW.
The think that I don’t understand is when listening to music or watching TH-cam videos any headphone sounds fine with my Scarlett the problem starts with using plugins
Most excellent!
In the high source impedence graphs with a low load impedence. Why do you get a bass boost when headphones typically have a high impedance in that region, which implies it needs less current in those frequencies and should have a cleaner response.