Some people have suggested to use a PAD / attenuator to be able to use more gain on the preamp to get a better signal-to-noise ratio (SNR). THIS DOES NOT WORK and does completly the opposite. A PAD attenuates the signal from the microphone and even though the SNR of a preamp gets better at a higher gain setting, it is not enough to compensate for the massively decreased signal level. You will end up with a much worse SNR! For the best SNR do not use a PAD, neither on your mic nor the interface.
One important thing, your SNR graphs is valid and will be similar only for analog preamps with analog gain controls. If you will measure ZOOM H6, or ZOOM UAC-2, for example, the graphs will be different, because this two interfaces are designed in different way.
Good point, on the Zoom H1n for example the SNR gets significantly worse once you go below a gain of 5.5. Above that if follows the graph in the video.
For years I’ve been recording at maximum possible gain (without clipping) and then lowering gain levels in post to the appropriate level for the mix. NOBODY believed me when I said this is actually slightly more optimal in signal to noise ratio than recording at a lower level and boosting it in post. Now I have a video to show them to prove my point. Thanks!!!!!!
"The noise floor on it's own without any reference is meaningless!" You nailed it!!! SNR is the one. Proper levelling is the first thing anyone should learn
Lately I have left comments on a number of YT videos that are wrong about this issue. So many YT video creators are ignorant. It is great that you are here to tell the truth. You the Man Julian.
Also, some of the factors contributing to the noise some people hear will be actually the noise of the environment/room your mic is picking up and not generally the pre-amp itself. The AC, the PC fan, the traffic, the neighbor's barking dog, 60 cycle hum, vacuum cleaner etc. That's why treating and sound-proofing a recording-isolation booth, checking your wires and earthing is also important. While it's true that there's no equipment that is noise free, at least we can lessen it! Cheers for bringing this topic up!
I was lucky to not know anything about recording when I started making audio recordings because this video’s contents were intuitively obvious. Then I started participating in recording forums and doubts crept in d/t so many participants spreading these kinds of myths like they were common sense. For about a year I doubted my own ears and logic. Thank you for putting this so clearly and ‘correcting my course’. I really thought I was deaf and crazy.
Excellent as always. I am a complete hobbyist, and I am not ashamed to admit that the most important learning point for me was the most basic---namely, if the volume of your instrument or voice is quieter, you need to be closer to the microphone. I have in recent days been bolder about cranking the gain, and I must agree that it seems much better to record "hot" and turn down the volume of my tracks in the final mix, than be nervous about the gain and later crank it up. Now I have to be on the lookout for clipping, but in my experience that is a much easier problem to contain.
this advice here is so spot on, and yet there are so many people that do not understand or apply this, and it's super important for a professional quality recording/mix for the end product. Great video Julian! And thanks for the thorough and very well informed and clear explanation
wow Julian, great video! I always avoided using too much gain because I could hear hissing. I had a lot of trouble getting the DBX286s processor to work correctly until I followed your video on it and calibrated the gain on the dbx and inteface so that the output reached -18db. Following your method, the gain was much higher than I would normally be comfortable with but amazingly the recording sounded fantastic, and there was no perceptible noise at all - thanks again!
Thank you for the scientific and common-sense approach to figuring out audio. Really appreciate it. Please continue debunking myths this way! Thumbs up!
With maximum gain you get the lowest EIN noise. With the lowest gain you the the best dynamic range and the best possible SNR but you need to record really loud sounds. Dynamic range sets the upper limit for for SNR.
Julian, as a professional sound guy I agree with most things you said but there's one circumstance I disagree in. If your recorder or interface doesn't have very clean preamps, you shouldn't take it very loud without something like a Fethead or Cloudlifter. A Zoom H4N or even an H5 can see improvements from such devices and it's only in those circumstances, or if your preamps don't supply much gain, do I suggest not taking your preamps above 90%. To your point (and as you know) EIN is measured with the preamps at max gain and provided you have a nice and low EIN, no problem but if not... keep the preamp gain lower and let a Cloudlifter or Fethead do the heavy lifting.
Hey Allen, I think we have to differentiate gain and the inherent noise of a preamp. I agree, if you have a noisy preamp then a FetHead or Cloudlifter can improve the situation. But lets say you only have the H4n preamp to work with and you want to record a very low signal. And lets you had to max out the gain to get the signal to a proper recording level. In this szenario it would be foolish to back off the gain to 90% because you end up with a recording with a worse SNR than just maxing out the gain.
I must not know very much about audio engineering because this made complete sense to me and wasn't counterintuitive at all. Thanks for a great video. Also....comment necromancy! Old videos are still hugely useful! Thanks again julian!
This has come at such a good time for me at the beginning of my journey recording. I've been massively struggling trying to do all sorts in post to increase voice recordings. To avoid noise my recordings are peaking at -36db because I'm slowly turning up the gain and stopping when I hear the slightest noise. I'd hit a wall till I saw this and can't wait to go and do some new recording with your advice in mind!!!!
Off topic for this video BUT I’ve watched a bunch of your videos when shopping for a new interface. Thank you so much for the concise and clearly demonstrated information! I went with the Motu M2 thanks to the info you provided.
Exactly. Increasing the gain of the preamp only amplifies the already existing noise. The signal will be amplified faster. It does not add more noise!!
Bravo! This is as fine a tutorial as I've seen in years. I've been converting my vinyl music collection to digital and only recently began to realize that I achieve less noise with a higher gain setting on my preamp. Then I found this tutorial which confirmed what I had discovered. This detailed information greatly expanded my understanding of how best to balance signal to noise ratio. I also learned that a target recording level of -18 to -12dB is at good range to shoot for when adjusting gain and recording levels. Thank you Julian! Take it from an experienced training instructor (not in the field of audio), your tutorial is the BEST!
Julian, thank you for destroying the myths that pervade the blogosphere. I learned your audio truths years ago through experience. One thing I want to add (which I learned from my pro audio engineer friend) is that every gain knob has a "sweet spot". If you hit this "sweet spot" the sound gets more dynamic, lively, and fast. He's found that true of every analog and digital gain knob he's ever used. The poorer quality the gain -- the higher you have to turn the knob to get there. So in poorer gain designs, you then run out of headroom between the sweet spot and clipping limits.
WOW!!! Thank you very much for this video! I am always happy to see if qualitative and technically well-founded content appears on youtube. There are really only very few users who reach a similar high level.
I agree, Julian does an amazing job. But could you mention those other users? I’m hungry for the good quality audio tech explanations and already watched about 95% of Julian’s videos (while choosing the interface).
as guitar player and i can tell what gain is all i know is simply take any line signal clips or don't not matter what really matter that you've picked every single detail you need and next before you go to mix you have to repair signals to produce something in the correct level that people know or hear usually please feel free to correct e if I were wrong thank you
Thanks a lot for the good explanation. Coming from the 80s, I did a lot tape recording back then and amplifying a quiet source always resulted in a high backround noise. However, I thought pre-amps would distort at the highest gain, so I always opted for some kind of middle ground when setting up my audio-interface. Thanks to you, I threw out the fethead and cranked up the gain. Sounds good and less kibble. Much appreciated.
Thanks man for the explanation. I previously felt guilty when I had to set gain more than 50%. Now it is clear about signal to noise ratio and I know should aim to look at my Audicity to the optimum performance of peak amplitude between -18 and -12 db and set the gain accordingly.
Excellent video, and very insightful. I used to get passive mic feedback whine and worse perceived floors when not raising the physical gain dial on my mic, but I could not vocalize why this was until now. Will be sharing this with anyone who deals with this issue going forward. Thank you.
Julian, so marvelous and fresh. To hear a young engineer like you. Who has figured it out. Yeah baby! I will go on to say something else about, maxing out your microphone preamp gain trim. This is true for many but not all, microphone preamps. There are single stage and dual stage, microphone preamps. From the most premium high-end consoles. To the most affordable, inexpensive, mass-produced, Chinese renditions. Of which. I personally favor. The single stage style preamps. I find that much more versatile and colorful. Where the dual stage preamps. Are much more, homogenized and consistent sounding. One could say, more refined, sounding. Great for the opera. Maybe not as great for Black Sabbath? Where that's all about the grunge and the guts with the glory. And you want something more colorful with character in its design. And that would be single stage. I actually learned this through a fluke. When I was only 22. And I had just designed and built, Baltimore's second largest music, commercial recording and industrial film production company. I designed my 24 x 8 x 2 audio console from scratch. With nothing more than a box of parts and pieces. Modules wires sockets and plugs. And my recording studio partner. I was always very careful about my microphone preamp gain trim. But my partner's recordings during his tracking sessions. Sounded much bigger and bolder than mine. I couldn't figure out what Philip was doing? We are both using my console! When I sat in on a recording session with Philip. I found out why. He had a tendency. To just crank the microphone preamp gain up, all the way. He would vary the recording level with the output Fader. And I was like DUH. And Philip thought I was a better engineer than he was. But he had just taught me one of the most important lessons of my audio career. Crank it! If it sounds bad. You can back it off. Otherwise, crank it! You'll thank me and Julian later. Or you can think is now. You're welcome. Now I also have three, API 3124 mixers. And with those. It's a little different. You've got your gain trim control. And you have a pad switch. The pad reduces the incoming volume by 20 DB. So as not to overload the input section i.e. the transformer input and the first transistor. And with that. I regularly leave the pad switch is on and engaged. Even if not needed. Just so. I can crank the preamp gain up as full as I can get it. Without my clip lights staying on continuously. But they will blink. It's okay for them to blink. Occasionally and regularly. They blink before it clips. They designed it that way. It gives you a DB or so worth of cushion. When you see the LED clip light. It hasn't necessarily, clipped. If you're not over crank with a loud source. And that's to get the maximum tonality out of the operational amplifier that makes it a preamp. Operational amplifiers can also be line level amplifiers. It depends on the types and the models. So good old Julian again is spot on here. Yes. He seems to be one of those Germans that knows what he is listening to. Why the hell do you think he's doing this in English? It's because Germans love to practice their English on Americans and Canadians LOL. As you can tell he's very good with it. He's learned all the big words. That Donnie didn't. He knows exactly what he is talking about. I like this guy Julian. Dear Julian. You come from a great heritage of the greatest composers in the world. Who created some of the greatest productions, in the world of the era. And I really do feel. I know you do also. But we can hardly tell. Because you are beyond laid-back. It's like you have been tranquilized. So? While you might be teaching. And you are being very professional. You are offering up no emotions. To this completely, emotional, passionate production of musical art. You could be a little more exuberant and animated. You do not have to act like your mother's, psychiatrist. Honestly, you don't. You seem to be a charming guy. Turn up the charm. Experiment with your knowledge of American humor. And enjoy the mistakes you make. Kind of like that TH-camr, German in Venice is his channel. That is Venice Beach, Los Angeles, California. The German in Venice. He does a lot of interviews with a lot of the homeless on the streets. He's very gentlemanly very professional. When interviewing them. Because of their hardships. He has a heart. But when reviewing other aspects of Los Angeles. He's a little more like a cross between, Steve Martin and Arnold Schwarzenegger. And sounds like Arnold Schwarzenegger. Because he does a great vocal impersonation of Arnie Schwarzenegger. Whom I know personally. As I worked with Arnie's then wife, Maria Shriver. When I was an Audio Engineer at NBC-TV, Washington DC for 20 years. And he would accompany her to the show I was doing with her. So I got to schmooze with the Terminator. Every Saturday afternoon. For 26 weeks. It was very funny. He's quite the character. And another racist bigot in a nice kind of way. In a professional way. And he tells me his last name is not pronounced Schwarzenegger. He tells me we all know what a Schwarzenegger is. And when I asked him how he pronounces his last name? He tells me it's pronounced, (phonetically here) Schwarzen-egger. When he that again repeated we all know what a Schwarzenegger is. And he pointed across the studio floor toward one of my African-American fellow union engineering colleagues. And he told me that was a Schwarzenegger. And that's not how he pronounces his name. That's how everybody else pronounces his name. And he doesn't like being associated with a black man. And the true Austrian in him comes out. But otherwise a very nice guy who cheated on his wife. He was so conservative. She didn't find out for over 20 years. I thought that was hilarious but not for Maria. She was very nice very sweet to work with. A real lady. She had some integrity. Arnie doesn't. He knows how to pump iron ya. Est Goot. Ya. I'm sorry I was married to a pair of Germans. For over 30 years. I love German everything! Including my significant others. First my wife. Then my husband. Both born and raised in Germany. Or is that an Austrian accent you've got? Swiss? Dutch? It doesn't matter. I like you. You're good. You are spot on. You've learned. It's good to be right. RemyRAD
I was using low gain for fear of the noise. But then I get too close to the mic and its easy to distort, Now the gain is almost all the way up, and the mic back a bit more. When I playback, the volume can be reduced and so noise is the same. Thank you.
Its bold to even try to explain that subject, and you've done it great. Low level garbage in = high garbage out. Got it :) Lately wrestled noise issues thru interface/moog/electric guitar paths. And came to the conclusion to max to max possible rec level. I will not even touch gain knobs dedicated to their source anymore. Only preamp on my nylon string Cordoba produce outrageous noise (or ground noise?). I replaced the pre-amp with factory parts, but no lack. I don't want to record guitar thru mic, because its whole another chapter rocket science. Will need bunch of JK masterclasses :)
Back in the ancient days of the 90's when I was in college, I was taught to always get the hottest source signal you could without distortion/clipping to improve SNR. Basically the same thing you said ;-)
This idea of a lower gain must be a new concept. 20 yrs ago, I always heard turn the gain as high as possible without distorting. -6db pre-post for head room, -3db final product, precisely to decrease the preamp and mic noise. Only in recent years have I heard -12 to -18
What I noticed with any preamp I had is that the more you raise volume, then more characteristics change. I have SSL Alpha Channel that I use for every vocal recording, and Focusrite Saffire Pro 40, both will change the attributes of the sound at higher gains. On SSL when you crank it all the way up, you have very sharp sound output from the mic, that actually hurts your ears, almost like high shelving the signal in EQ. Lower levels of gain produce very gentle response in comparison. Driving the gain changes attributes of the signal on many pre-amps, not just the noise floor.
For anyone who is not sure how to gain stage a signal with ample headroom see if this helps: turn your gain trim all the way down, then set you fader to OdB, now turn up your gain trim to where you incoming signal is peaking between -18 and -12dB (or higher - but no higher than -1dB if you are absolutely sure your signal will never ever increase beyond this input level) and voila you have achieved nominal input gain staging for your preamp!
Thank you Julian. You've summarised things I watched on a Misha Mansoor videos and others on the web. Anyway, I didn't learn about the Noise Ratio when you max the gain. Thanks for these great videos!
I suppose I should have trusted my intuition. That is how I thought it would work until I was told otherwise. I wondered why they would make preamps that got more noise at higher levels, didn't really make sense. I mean, this is how you'd assume it'd work.
This is informative as well as I always would get turned off when I would max gain. Alot of times I found a big issue when recording with dynamics is the singer was either too quiet (sometimes triggered from a bad monitor mix) or just not close to mic. Going into a Clarett with a singer with a healthy level with a dynamic, I had to turn down the gain to prevent clipping. I found that the noise in these recordings was much quieter than I expected with a dynamic mic.
Awesome video. Topic has been percolating in my brain because I've got a Sm7b arriving tomorrow and those are gaaaaain hungry. Now I will confidently max my b12aMK2 with it.
I use a pro amp in my hifi system and have found if I dial down the gain it sounds way better, but you have to tune it to the proper setting, my dac/preamp has adjustable output level too. My amp is a very powerful amp with a very high gain, for a home stereo anyway. When I get it set right it the sound is great. Of course recording is different than listening.
So, We should turn down the gain and Talk really LOUD into the Mic to get the Cleanest sound? low gain to prevent clipping and loud talking to boost signal ratio?
Just a masterpiece! Excellent explanation. passed my college degree just by memorizing all these terms. Now for the need for high-quality content making, I am currently focusing on audio, and your videos give me so much practical knowledge! Thank you. I just bought a zoom h1n and Deity d3 pro mic but shall get it next month. I am curious to know, how can I use both of their gain knobs to get the max SNR possible for overhead talking head videos. Which one shall be primary pre amps and more details. Can you share your thoughts and experiences, please?
Hey Julian. Could you explain why record as lower level archive lower SNR? As I know, the microphone has signal to noise ratio too - The lower preamp gain, the lower signal, but the Mic's self noise is lower too right? So what cause recording as lower level make the SNR worst please?
I have owned 3 usb mics over 2 years{1 broke :(}...and i always used them at maximum gain on the mic but reducing the actual volume in windows sound control...always gave me a good level input and no noise despite me having background noise! If i did otherwise and reduced gain with full windows volume i always used to get a good sound signal but always a higher noise. So in my personal use i always found max gain to be the best setting. Awesome video as always Julian. Cheers.
I've actually heard about people saying that you shouldn't max out your gain. But at the same time the first thing I learned was to dial in as much gain as I could get away with. For whatever reason I never really though about that much since the noise never bothered me much at all. I would almost immediately just get used to it haha
Good job. My instrument is Persian hammered dulcimer which has a low level sound in comparison to lots of other instruments. So when I try to record it's sound first, I try to place my pair of condenser microphones closer to it, and then set the gain of my preamplifier in order to achieve the best sound level in order to record it properly.
Maybe you needed two concepts here. SNR and Dynamic Range (DNR). SNR is the ratio of an arbitrary signal level to noise when DNR is the ratio of maximum possible output level to noise. You will not hear hiss in presence of a strong music signal in a poor DNR amp but you will hear it during quiet passages or in silent moments. Most likely to notice with classical material than with EDM for instance. The higher the headphones or speakers sensitivity the more you will hear it.
You saved my poor audio interface from taking the blame for my noisy condenser mic! Was thinking about buying another interface before this. Now, I'm looking at getting a mic with lower self-noise. Thanks Julian!
I loved this video, I didn't know that SNR gets higher with more gain, I honestly thought it was the same, I wish this video existed about 4-5 years ago, it would save me a lot of trial and error.. Everything I learnt (and more)about preamps while running my own home studio for over 5 years at this point, summerized in 11 minutes. Excellent work!
OK, I am a little confused. I often record into a Yamaha mixer, and then run a cable from the mixer into a Zoom H1 to record. I have found that if I raise the gain on the mixer and lower the gain on the Zoom, I get lousy audio and more noise. But if I lower the gain on the mixer and raise the gain on my Zoom recorder I get far better sound and less noise. My conclusion is that the mixer has poorer preamps in it than the Zoom does, and that a high gain level on the mixer leads to trouble. By keeping the gain on the mixer on the low side and the gain on the Zoom on the higher side (at least 70 or more) my sound is great. Am I missing something?
That's interesting, typically you want to apply the mayority of gain in the first preamp and only use little to no gain in the later stages. This will give you the best SNR. The Zoom H1 has a weird quirk though: When you set the input level lower than 38 the SNR will get significantly worse. So, try to set the gain on the H1 to 38 and then use the gain on your mixer. This should give you optimal results.
@@JulianKrause Have been using a TLM 103/Senn 416 to John Hardy line level into Apollo Twin Duo and I noticed that when I would crank the gain on the John Hardy to a 90% my output/volume would be less and the noise floor as well. I guess the transformers were really working. Someone also shared with me that it would be 50/50 as far as distributing the signal so it would not bottle up. 50% percent on the external preamp and then 50% on the Interface (obviously not the Apollo's Preamps since they are overridden) but the line level signal. So about 54 db on JH and 20 db. on Apollo having a noise floor of about -65. Will try the method you suggested Julian. Thank you very much for your video ....Cheers and Happy New Year 2021.
@@ShroomJesus Again George, the "Apollo's Preamps" are not being used they are bypassed but the Apollo' Line Level Signal using a 1/4 inch TRS into Apollo not an XLR into the Apollo as you say (not using the preamps of the Apollo Twin, only the AD Converters) thus distributing the External Preamp and the Line Level at the interface.
@@ShroomJesus My noise floor is at about -65 and using 68db of gain for voice over it' peaks at -6 or -5. Please share George what do you mean by using a "transformer" you mean like a beachtek audio?
I've tested this back in the day with my first usb mic, the tonor q9, it has a volume rocker that changes the volume of the mic itself (not in windows) by 5% with each press. When you boot up your pc and the mic turns on it always starts at 50% gain, I used to record my voice and I was always annoyed by the snr. So when my pc booted up I always lowered it to 35% and boosted it in voicemeter by I think it was 5db. This actually made a difference in the snr itself. I checked it by looking at the db of the recording, once with speech and once without. My results were that lowering the gain did make the snr lower, I have no Idea why specifically that mic was so sensitive when it came to snr, it could be due to cheap components (the mic kit is like 50 - 70 bux) but I figuered that it had to be the cheap components. Since then, I've used a Rodpodcaster v2 (USB aswell), which had the same thing going for it, lowering the gain in windows and boosting it in voicemeter did make it less noisy. Nowadays I use a Shure MV7 (Also in USB [Sorry to xlr enjoyers]), but with this mic, I rarely think about the snr due to it being very quiete, so leaving it at 100% in windows and adding like 2 db in voicemeter with a bit of manual compression and eq makes it by far the best mic I've used and heard on my own voice to this day.
I learned that the source output (like a CD player) should be as high as possible without clipping. That way you get the highest dynamic range. If you have a low signal and have to turn upp the volume a lot on the amp you also turn up the "noise".
Thank you, Julian, for making this video. I have tried to explain this to boneheaded producers who rely on internet "experts" rather than sound engineering principles. This is only one example of a recording fallacy that has become widely accepted as truth. This is the first of your videos that I've seen. I will definitely check out others.
great value video! do you know if press the "pad" button (on intarface) and increase the gain to compensate this signal reduction will increase SNR as well? for example, SNR will be higher with gain on 4 and pad pressed or gain in 2 with pad released? thanks!
leaving my tactical reply here. thats interesting, you could always use max-gain with the best SNR and not clip. :D probably depends on what the pad actually does.
Hey, interesting thought. But using a PAD actually decreases the signal-to-noise ratio because the noise of your recording system stays roughly the same while the signal is reduced. Yes, SNR gets better at a higher gain settings but it is not enough to compensate for the massively decreased signal. That's why you will end up with a much worse SNR. For the best SNR do not use a PAD. Neither on your mic nor the interface. Cheers!
Thanks for the info. It makes perfect sense. I tried recording one song at a lower gain recently and the mix came out much lower then the others. Making the mix post level of the mix too low. What you say is true.
Thank you Julian. I ve noticed that the better position of the preamp of Motu M2 with mics like Neumann TLM 102, KM 184, Sure KSM 141 and CAD E100S is in between 5 and 6 approx. (70 - 100 cm distance, scale 1 - 10), when I try to capture an acoustic instrument like a violin for instance. Otherwise, the mike as just you told is more noisy apart, captures more exterior ambient noise. Would be excellent if you make a video about experience with acoustic instruments. Thank you for the very useful tutorials! Regards from Mexico
Great Video! I hope you can make a video about how to measure and calculate the EIN of a preamp, like the one that you explain measuring the EIN of dynamic mics. Also, I am confused about the relation between EIN and DR. It would be greatly appreciated if you can explain that in the video too. Thank you so much! :D
10:26 I'd change the wording to say that the first step is to maximize the _acoustic_ signal _going to_ the microphone, and to them maximize the the amplification at the preamp.
I did a little experiment with the AudioBox 96 the other day. I carefully adjusted the game on the preamp to were my voice was right below peaking and then dial it back just a tad more singing about as loud as I ever would at any point of that track Resulting in the gain being at about 80% which is pretty high. I can't believe how quiet I got the AudioBox 96 to record. Didn't affect the song at all even with multiple tracks and post processing. It completely changed how I view this interface. I barely heard any noise and this interface is considered to be noisy.
Yet another reason I love my trusty old Presonus AudioBox 44VSL interface. It has 4 inputs, 4 outputs PLUS stereo monitor outs AND direct monitoring with a mix knob AND a very powerful headphone amp built in. 😊
Your points arr based on objective measures and not on ethereal thoughts. As an audio engineer I find very valuable the information on your channel. If you can include information about how you make your measurements it would be completely amazing. Thanks for your contribution!!!
great advice, what's the point in recording something that hasn't got a strong signal, you wouldn't ask someone with a delicate voice to sing into the mic from a meter away
Mate I appreciate your videos so much. Now instead of explaining the same thing again and again to guys looping audio misconception BS, I just send the link of your related video to explain the reality. Thanks for all your work!
I grew up on tape, so those "notions" were a bit different. Later, digital presented a S/N unheard of, but behaved worse when using "tape logic" concepts. The backlash was "don't try to saturate a DAW like you do tubes or tape" (we have those as plug-ins). SO, yes, do NOT ignore maxing out your input, but be careful, and 'get close' to it, but back off from red. As always, the earlier you can optimize ALL steps in recording (room noise, mic distances, etc) will result in better results at every further step of the process. It all adds up.
Good thinking, Julian! My take away message for this topic is to use microphones with low ratings for both impedance / self-noise AND sensitivity. The lower the impedance or specified self-noise the better the signal to noise ratio at the microphone. The lower the sensitivity of the mic the higher you can crank up your gain to the reach maximum signal to noise ratio at the preamp. In practice though you always have consider the amount of gain your preamp can provide, which sets limits for the minimum sensitivity, of course. So its always a balancing act, taking all technical parameters into perspective. Regards Ellef
I agree that the mic should have low self-noise. But not necessarily a low sensitivity. The first step to getting good SNR is to get a strong signal from your mic. If the mic has a very low sensitivity, the signal from the mic will be very low. But regardless of the sensitivity of the mic, if you place the mic properly AND set your gain properly you will end up with a low noise recording.
@@JulianKrause The perspective I wanted to draw is that a lower sensitivity mic allows to push more gain at the interface, hence can increase the preamp SNR. A very "hot" mic could require less gain, hence decrease the preamp SNR.
@@ellef9331 Err, no. If you tried this in practice, you would find that the hotter mic actually produces the better SNR! Let's say the mic is 5 dB hotter (but remaining a dynamic mic of same impedance). If you turn down the preamp by 5 dB to compensate, your EIN might worsen by 1 dB - but your noise floor still is 4 dB lower than before! The absolute worst-case scenario is that the noise floor stays the same. It can't get any worse than that. The absolutely highest SNR that a dynamic mic can produce with a given sound level and on an ideal noiseless preamp is determined by its sensitivity and the thermal noise of its voice coil resistance. So the following are basically equivalent: -59 dBV/Pa at 150 ohms -56 dBV/Pa at 300 ohms -53 dBV/Pa at 600 ohms Practical results on real-life preamps are likely to be more or less skewed - my lowly Behringer mixer (EIN approx -126 dBu shorted ~= -124.8 dBu @ 150 ohm) would deliver best results with the 600 ohm one, being voltage noise limited.
I've recently noticed a disconnect among many....they /we have to remember the preamp noise can not be added into the "room noise"........... totally separate sources, you cant measure preamp noise with a mic.........many think they can.
Thanks for this. The problem is not the gain but the data able to be recorded by the analog to digital recorder. If you could record at 32bit or more the gain is set to max where you have the best SNR and get no clipping because of the bit depth.
Ich danke dir für deine Ratschläge. Diese kommen mir echt zugute. Ich werde dich auf jeden Fall weiterempfehlen. Tadelloses Englisch samt Fachbegriffe verdienen auch einen Daumen nach Oben.
I already knew this from home audio/amp/preamps, but for some reason I didn't realize the same thing applies to Mic Gain. Thanks for the video, great stuff!
This should be required viewing for anyone who has just bought their first dynamic mic. I wish I had seen this when I got my sm57 before I started recording with it.
The Model 4 and Model 5 preamps from Gordon Instruments (which are no longer in production thanks to the global shortages) are unique in that they don't use attenuation or feedback to control the output level. The gain indicated on the knob is the _true gain_ of the preamp. Whatever your gain is set to is the maximum gain. I'd be curious to see you test it (if you can get your hands on one).
You are right, of course: the cascaded noise figure of attenuated amp stages is truly horrible compared to max gain - use a lot of gain for best bit resolution but I leave a bit of headroom to avoid transient clipping and for additional processing. Also, the best cascaded noise figures will be strong signals at the front end of the signal chain... that might not always be the most complimentary TONE, but it will absolutely have better SNR, otherwise as you pointed out, you are amplifying front end noise. .
Question: If the signal-to-noise ratio increases at higher gains, in the first demonstration, why didn't the first recording (recorded at lower gain) have the same amount of noise as the second recording when you equalized the volume? It should've had more noise.
Awesome work! The graph at 6:04 showed that the M-Audio Air for example dose not relay gets any better signal to noise if you increase the gain from 40dB to 55dB. (Would love to see this graph in the reviews to get an idea of how much gain is real useful gain and how much could also just be digital gain.) Also at some the point where SNR stops increasing, THD might as well increase and total "Signal to Noise+THD Ratio" starts to decrease?
i got a mic preamp and the preamps in my rme fireface. i use the amp for some saturation and i am happy with the snr. But i i would put the mic directly in the rme i could probably get a better snr.
Some people have suggested to use a PAD / attenuator to be able to use more gain on the preamp to get a better signal-to-noise ratio (SNR). THIS DOES NOT WORK and does completly the opposite. A PAD attenuates the signal from the microphone and even though the SNR of a preamp gets better at a higher gain setting, it is not enough to compensate for the massively decreased signal level. You will end up with a much worse SNR! For the best SNR do not use a PAD, neither on your mic nor the interface.
One important thing, your SNR graphs is valid and will be similar only for analog preamps with analog gain controls. If you will measure ZOOM H6, or ZOOM UAC-2, for example, the graphs will be different, because this two interfaces are designed in different way.
Good point, on the Zoom H1n for example the SNR gets significantly worse once you go below a gain of 5.5. Above that if follows the graph in the video.
Yes, on some interfaces they combine digitally controlled resistor networks in the input of an preamp with digital gain control after A/D conversion.
@Julian Krause I couldn't follow anymore from 8:25 when i realized, that there's no cable attached to the SM57 :D
@@tobytoxd Hehe, truly wireless audio :)
Use that gain, people! Thanks for this Julian.
omg your here...Julian has achieved god level of AUDIO information.
@@peachesasmr9366 lol
May the gain be with you!
oh lord the worlds are crossing over
Why are you here. Scalping video ideas?
For years I’ve been recording at maximum possible gain (without clipping) and then lowering gain levels in post to the appropriate level for the mix. NOBODY believed me when I said this is actually slightly more optimal in signal to noise ratio than recording at a lower level and boosting it in post. Now I have a video to show them to prove my point. Thanks!!!!!!
So when you self have proofen it it is less true, than when someone else makes a video about it?
storkstork sadly that’s how friends work. They don’t believe you till someone famous or well know/reputable makes a video on it
Tube pres saturate, not fets.
Is this also valid for speech recordings?
Do you then apply some form of noise cancellation in post?
"The noise floor on it's own without any reference is meaningless!" You nailed it!!! SNR is the one. Proper levelling is the first thing anyone should learn
Lately I have left comments on a number of YT videos that are wrong about this issue. So many YT video creators are ignorant. It is great that you are here to tell the truth. You the Man Julian.
Your videos dig a lot deeper into the science of audio, than other videos I've seen. Great work! Keep it up dude!
Also, some of the factors contributing to the noise some people hear will be actually the noise of the environment/room your mic is picking up and not generally the pre-amp itself. The AC, the PC fan, the traffic, the neighbor's barking dog, 60 cycle hum, vacuum cleaner etc. That's why treating and sound-proofing a recording-isolation booth, checking your wires and earthing is also important. While it's true that there's no equipment that is noise free, at least we can lessen it!
Cheers for bringing this topic up!
I was lucky to not know anything about recording when I started making audio recordings because this video’s contents were intuitively obvious. Then I started participating in recording forums and doubts crept in d/t so many participants spreading these kinds of myths like they were common sense. For about a year I doubted my own ears and logic. Thank you for putting this so clearly and ‘correcting my course’. I really thought I was deaf and crazy.
Excellent as always. I am a complete hobbyist, and I am not ashamed to admit that the most important learning point for me was the most basic---namely, if the volume of your instrument or voice is quieter, you need to be closer to the microphone. I have in recent days been bolder about cranking the gain, and I must agree that it seems much better to record "hot" and turn down the volume of my tracks in the final mix, than be nervous about the gain and later crank it up. Now I have to be on the lookout for clipping, but in my experience that is a much easier problem to contain.
I always suspected this to be true anecdotally. Thank you for doing the analysis confirming my thoughts!
this dude needs an award! I thought the same, but this makes so much sense!
Time to readjust my gain again XD
Clear, logical, concise. Good job, here.
this advice here is so spot on, and yet there are so many people that do not understand or apply this, and it's super important for a professional quality recording/mix for the end product. Great video Julian! And thanks for the thorough and very well informed and clear explanation
Julian, your channel is pure gold, cheers From Mexico and thank you for amazing content.
Wow the timing of this video showing up on my feed couldn't be more perfect.
wow Julian, great video! I always avoided using too much gain because I could hear hissing. I had a lot of trouble getting the DBX286s processor to work correctly until I followed your video on it and calibrated the gain on the dbx and inteface so that the output reached -18db. Following your method, the gain was much higher than I would normally be comfortable with but amazingly the recording sounded fantastic, and there was no perceptible noise at all - thanks again!
Thank you for the scientific and common-sense approach to figuring out audio. Really appreciate it. Please continue debunking myths this way! Thumbs up!
I was wondering why my mic pres are noisy at the maximum gain without nothing plugged in. Just knew It is a normal phenomenon! Thanks a lot!
You are a master at explaining complex topics in an easy to understand way!
With maximum gain you get the lowest EIN noise. With the lowest gain you the the best dynamic range and the best possible SNR but you need to record really loud sounds. Dynamic range sets the upper limit for for SNR.
Julian, as a professional sound guy I agree with most things you said but there's one circumstance I disagree in. If your recorder or interface doesn't have very clean preamps, you shouldn't take it very loud without something like a Fethead or Cloudlifter. A Zoom H4N or even an H5 can see improvements from such devices and it's only in those circumstances, or if your preamps don't supply much gain, do I suggest not taking your preamps above 90%.
To your point (and as you know) EIN is measured with the preamps at max gain and provided you have a nice and low EIN, no problem but if not... keep the preamp gain lower and let a Cloudlifter or Fethead do the heavy lifting.
Hey Allen, I think we have to differentiate gain and the inherent noise of a preamp. I agree, if you have a noisy preamp then a FetHead or Cloudlifter can improve the situation. But lets say you only have the H4n preamp to work with and you want to record a very low signal. And lets you had to max out the gain to get the signal to a proper recording level. In this szenario it would be foolish to back off the gain to 90% because you end up with a recording with a worse SNR than just maxing out the gain.
@@JulianKrause Totally.
You have an excellent style for presenting this technical information in a very clear way. It's very helpful. Thanks.
I must not know very much about audio engineering because this made complete sense to me and wasn't counterintuitive at all. Thanks for a great video. Also....comment necromancy! Old videos are still hugely useful! Thanks again julian!
This has come at such a good time for me at the beginning of my journey recording. I've been massively struggling trying to do all sorts in post to increase voice recordings. To avoid noise my recordings are peaking at -36db because I'm slowly turning up the gain and stopping when I hear the slightest noise. I'd hit a wall till I saw this and can't wait to go and do some new recording with your advice in mind!!!!
Off topic for this video BUT I’ve watched a bunch of your videos when shopping for a new interface. Thank you so much for the concise and clearly demonstrated information! I went with the Motu M2 thanks to the info you provided.
The most helpful video ever on the subject of signal-to-noise ratio. Fabulous!
As someone who is trying to learn more about audio, I thank you so much for this video: very clear and concise! 👍🏻
Exactly. Increasing the gain of the preamp only amplifies the already existing noise. The signal will be amplified faster. It does not add more noise!!
Bravo! This is as fine a tutorial as I've seen in years. I've been converting my vinyl music collection to digital and only recently began to realize that I achieve less noise with a higher gain setting on my preamp. Then I found this tutorial which confirmed what I had discovered. This detailed information greatly expanded my understanding of how best to balance signal to noise ratio. I also learned that a target recording level of -18 to -12dB is at good range to shoot for when adjusting gain and recording levels. Thank you Julian! Take it from an experienced training instructor (not in the field of audio), your tutorial is the BEST!
Julian, thank you for destroying the myths that pervade the blogosphere. I learned your audio truths years ago through experience. One thing I want to add (which I learned from my pro audio engineer friend) is that every gain knob has a "sweet spot". If you hit this "sweet spot" the sound gets more dynamic, lively, and fast. He's found that true of every analog and digital gain knob he's ever used. The poorer quality the gain -- the higher you have to turn the knob to get there. So in poorer gain designs, you then run out of headroom between the sweet spot and clipping limits.
WOW!!! Thank you very much for this video! I am always happy to see if qualitative and technically well-founded content appears on youtube. There are really only very few users who reach a similar high level.
I agree, Julian does an amazing job. But could you mention those other users? I’m hungry for the good quality audio tech explanations and already watched about 95% of Julian’s videos (while choosing the interface).
as guitar player and i can tell what gain is all i know is simply
take any line signal clips or don't not matter what really matter that you've picked every single detail you need
and next before you go to mix you have to repair signals to produce something in the correct level that people know or hear usually
please feel free to correct e if I were wrong
thank you
Thanks a lot for the good explanation. Coming from the 80s, I did a lot tape recording back then and amplifying a quiet source always resulted in a high backround noise.
However, I thought pre-amps would distort at the highest gain, so I always opted for some kind of middle ground when setting up my audio-interface.
Thanks to you, I threw out the fethead and cranked up the gain. Sounds good and less kibble. Much appreciated.
Thanks man for the explanation. I previously felt guilty when I had to set gain more than 50%. Now it is clear about signal to noise ratio and I know should aim to look at my Audicity to the optimum performance of peak amplitude between -18 and -12 db and set the gain accordingly.
Apa antarmuka audio yang anda sedang pakai sekarang Pak?
Excellent video, and very insightful. I used to get passive mic feedback whine and worse perceived floors when not raising the physical gain dial on my mic, but I could not vocalize why this was until now. Will be sharing this with anyone who deals with this issue going forward. Thank you.
Julian, so marvelous and fresh. To hear a young engineer like you. Who has figured it out. Yeah baby!
I will go on to say something else about, maxing out your microphone preamp gain trim. This is true for many but not all, microphone preamps.
There are single stage and dual stage, microphone preamps. From the most premium high-end consoles. To the most affordable, inexpensive, mass-produced, Chinese renditions. Of which. I personally favor. The single stage style preamps. I find that much more versatile and colorful. Where the dual stage preamps. Are much more, homogenized and consistent sounding. One could say, more refined, sounding. Great for the opera. Maybe not as great for Black Sabbath? Where that's all about the grunge and the guts with the glory. And you want something more colorful with character in its design. And that would be single stage.
I actually learned this through a fluke. When I was only 22. And I had just designed and built, Baltimore's second largest music, commercial recording and industrial film production company. I designed my 24 x 8 x 2 audio console from scratch. With nothing more than a box of parts and pieces. Modules wires sockets and plugs. And my recording studio partner.
I was always very careful about my microphone preamp gain trim. But my partner's recordings during his tracking sessions. Sounded much bigger and bolder than mine. I couldn't figure out what Philip was doing? We are both using my console!
When I sat in on a recording session with Philip. I found out why. He had a tendency. To just crank the microphone preamp gain up, all the way. He would vary the recording level with the output Fader. And I was like DUH. And Philip thought I was a better engineer than he was. But he had just taught me one of the most important lessons of my audio career. Crank it! If it sounds bad. You can back it off. Otherwise, crank it! You'll thank me and Julian later. Or you can think is now. You're welcome.
Now I also have three, API 3124 mixers. And with those. It's a little different. You've got your gain trim control. And you have a pad switch. The pad reduces the incoming volume by 20 DB. So as not to overload the input section i.e. the transformer input and the first transistor. And with that. I regularly leave the pad switch is on and engaged. Even if not needed. Just so. I can crank the preamp gain up as full as I can get it. Without my clip lights staying on continuously. But they will blink. It's okay for them to blink. Occasionally and regularly. They blink before it clips. They designed it that way. It gives you a DB or so worth of cushion. When you see the LED clip light. It hasn't necessarily, clipped. If you're not over crank with a loud source. And that's to get the maximum tonality out of the operational amplifier that makes it a preamp. Operational amplifiers can also be line level amplifiers. It depends on the types and the models.
So good old Julian again is spot on here. Yes. He seems to be one of those Germans that knows what he is listening to. Why the hell do you think he's doing this in English? It's because Germans love to practice their English on Americans and Canadians LOL. As you can tell he's very good with it. He's learned all the big words. That Donnie didn't. He knows exactly what he is talking about. I like this guy Julian.
Dear Julian. You come from a great heritage of the greatest composers in the world. Who created some of the greatest productions, in the world of the era. And I really do feel. I know you do also. But we can hardly tell. Because you are beyond laid-back. It's like you have been tranquilized. So?
While you might be teaching. And you are being very professional. You are offering up no emotions. To this completely, emotional, passionate production of musical art. You could be a little more exuberant and animated. You do not have to act like your mother's, psychiatrist. Honestly, you don't. You seem to be a charming guy. Turn up the charm. Experiment with your knowledge of American humor. And enjoy the mistakes you make. Kind of like that TH-camr, German in Venice is his channel. That is Venice Beach, Los Angeles, California. The German in Venice. He does a lot of interviews with a lot of the homeless on the streets. He's very gentlemanly very professional. When interviewing them. Because of their hardships. He has a heart. But when reviewing other aspects of Los Angeles. He's a little more like a cross between, Steve Martin and Arnold Schwarzenegger. And sounds like Arnold Schwarzenegger. Because he does a great vocal impersonation of Arnie Schwarzenegger. Whom I know personally. As I worked with Arnie's then wife, Maria Shriver. When I was an Audio Engineer at NBC-TV, Washington DC for 20 years. And he would accompany her to the show I was doing with her. So I got to schmooze with the Terminator. Every Saturday afternoon. For 26 weeks. It was very funny. He's quite the character. And another racist bigot in a nice kind of way. In a professional way. And he tells me his last name is not pronounced Schwarzenegger. He tells me we all know what a Schwarzenegger is. And when I asked him how he pronounces his last name? He tells me it's pronounced, (phonetically here) Schwarzen-egger. When he that again repeated we all know what a Schwarzenegger is. And he pointed across the studio floor toward one of my African-American fellow union engineering colleagues. And he told me that was a Schwarzenegger. And that's not how he pronounces his name. That's how everybody else pronounces his name. And he doesn't like being associated with a black man. And the true Austrian in him comes out. But otherwise a very nice guy who cheated on his wife. He was so conservative. She didn't find out for over 20 years. I thought that was hilarious but not for Maria. She was very nice very sweet to work with. A real lady. She had some integrity. Arnie doesn't. He knows how to pump iron ya. Est Goot. Ya.
I'm sorry I was married to a pair of Germans. For over 30 years. I love German everything! Including my significant others. First my wife. Then my husband. Both born and raised in Germany. Or is that an Austrian accent you've got? Swiss? Dutch?
It doesn't matter. I like you. You're good. You are spot on. You've learned. It's good to be right.
RemyRAD
I was using low gain for fear of the noise. But then I get too close to the mic and its easy to distort, Now the gain is almost all the way up, and the mic back a bit more. When I playback, the volume can be reduced and so noise is the same. Thank you.
Its bold to even try to explain that subject, and you've done it great. Low level garbage in = high garbage out. Got it :)
Lately wrestled noise issues thru interface/moog/electric guitar paths. And came to the conclusion to max to max possible rec level. I will not even touch gain knobs dedicated to their source anymore. Only preamp on my nylon string Cordoba produce outrageous noise (or ground noise?). I replaced the pre-amp with factory parts, but no lack. I don't want to record guitar thru mic, because its whole another chapter rocket science. Will need bunch of JK masterclasses :)
Back in the ancient days of the 90's when I was in college, I was taught to always get the hottest source signal you could without distortion/clipping to improve SNR. Basically the same thing you said ;-)
This idea of a lower gain must be a new concept. 20 yrs ago, I always heard turn the gain as high as possible without distorting. -6db pre-post for head room, -3db final product, precisely to decrease the preamp and mic noise. Only in recent years have I heard -12 to -18
Digital conversion doesn't tolerate ANY overload.
Very very interesting and explanatory! Well... as always! Thanks!
Ehrlich das Beste Audio Content auf TH-cam
What I noticed with any preamp I had is that the more you raise volume, then more characteristics change.
I have SSL Alpha Channel that I use for every vocal recording, and Focusrite Saffire Pro 40, both will change the attributes of the sound at higher gains. On SSL when you crank it all the way up, you have very sharp sound output from the mic, that actually hurts your ears, almost like high shelving the signal in EQ.
Lower levels of gain produce very gentle response in comparison.
Driving the gain changes attributes of the signal on many pre-amps, not just the noise floor.
For anyone who is not sure how to gain stage a signal with ample headroom see if this helps: turn your gain trim all the way down, then set you fader to OdB, now turn up your gain trim to where you incoming signal is peaking between -18 and -12dB (or higher - but no higher than -1dB if you are absolutely sure your signal will never ever increase beyond this input level) and voila you have achieved nominal input gain staging for your preamp!
Thank you Julian. You've summarised things I watched on a Misha Mansoor videos and others on the web. Anyway, I didn't learn about the Noise Ratio when you max the gain. Thanks for these great videos!
I suppose I should have trusted my intuition. That is how I thought it would work until I was told otherwise. I wondered why they would make preamps that got more noise at higher levels, didn't really make sense.
I mean, this is how you'd assume it'd work.
I think a manufacturer would stop the dial from even going that high if it was a bad thing.
@@arthurvandergracht7101these two comments should have non profit marketing for the music community
This is informative as well as I always would get turned off when I would max gain. Alot of times I found a big issue when recording with dynamics is the singer was either too quiet (sometimes triggered from a bad monitor mix) or just not close to mic.
Going into a Clarett with a singer with a healthy level with a dynamic, I had to turn down the gain to prevent clipping. I found that the noise in these recordings was much quieter than I expected with a dynamic mic.
Awesome video. Topic has been percolating in my brain because I've got a Sm7b arriving tomorrow and those are gaaaaain hungry. Now I will confidently max my b12aMK2 with it.
Thanks Julian. Your videos are always fun, informative and great to watch.
I use a pro amp in my hifi system and have found if I dial down the gain it sounds way better, but you have to tune it to the proper setting, my dac/preamp has adjustable output level too. My amp is a very powerful amp with a very high gain, for a home stereo anyway. When I get it set right it the sound is great. Of course recording is different than listening.
So, We should turn down the gain and Talk really LOUD into the Mic to get the Cleanest sound? low gain to prevent clipping and loud talking to boost signal ratio?
Just a masterpiece! Excellent explanation. passed my college degree just by memorizing all these terms. Now for the need for high-quality content making, I am currently focusing on audio, and your videos give me so much practical knowledge! Thank you.
I just bought a zoom h1n and Deity d3 pro mic but shall get it next month. I am curious to know, how can I use both of their gain knobs to get the max SNR possible for overhead talking head videos. Which one shall be primary pre amps and more details. Can you share your thoughts and experiences, please?
Hey Julian. Could you explain why record as lower level archive lower SNR?
As I know, the microphone has signal to noise ratio too - The lower preamp gain, the lower signal, but the Mic's self noise is lower too right? So what cause recording as lower level make the SNR worst please?
I have owned 3 usb mics over 2 years{1 broke :(}...and i always used them at maximum gain on the mic but reducing the actual volume in windows sound control...always gave me a good level input and no noise despite me having background noise! If i did otherwise and reduced gain with full windows volume i always used to get a good sound signal but always a higher noise. So in my personal use i always found max gain to be the best setting. Awesome video as always Julian. Cheers.
This was a really informative video in which you clearly explain the problem of gain and how to deal with gain for you pre-amp. Thank you so much!!!!!
Great audio recording explanation.
I've actually heard about people saying that you shouldn't max out your gain. But at the same time the first thing I learned was to dial in as much gain as I could get away with. For whatever reason I never really though about that much since the noise never bothered me much at all. I would almost immediately just get used to it haha
Good job. My instrument is Persian hammered dulcimer which has a low level sound in comparison to lots of other instruments. So when I try to record it's sound first, I try to place my pair of condenser microphones closer to it, and then set the gain of my preamplifier in order to achieve the best sound level in order to record it properly.
Maybe you needed two concepts here. SNR and Dynamic Range (DNR). SNR is the ratio of an arbitrary signal level to noise when DNR is the ratio of maximum possible output level to noise. You will not hear hiss in presence of a strong music signal in a poor DNR amp but you will hear it during quiet passages or in silent moments. Most likely to notice with classical material than with EDM for instance. The higher the headphones or speakers sensitivity the more you will hear it.
You saved my poor audio interface from taking the blame for my noisy condenser mic! Was thinking about buying another interface before this. Now, I'm looking at getting a mic with lower self-noise. Thanks Julian!
Love it when someone proves i was living with a misconception and as a result my life gets better
I loved this video, I didn't know that SNR gets higher with more gain, I honestly thought it was the same, I wish this video existed about 4-5 years ago, it would save me a lot of trial and error.. Everything I learnt (and more)about preamps while running my own home studio for over 5 years at this point, summerized in 11 minutes. Excellent work!
OK, I am a little confused. I often record into a Yamaha mixer, and then run a cable from the mixer into a Zoom H1 to record. I have found that if I raise the gain on the mixer and lower the gain on the Zoom, I get lousy audio and more noise. But if I lower the gain on the mixer and raise the gain on my Zoom recorder I get far better sound and less noise. My conclusion is that the mixer has poorer preamps in it than the Zoom does, and that a high gain level on the mixer leads to trouble. By keeping the gain on the mixer on the low side and the gain on the Zoom on the higher side (at least 70 or more) my sound is great. Am I missing something?
That's interesting, typically you want to apply the mayority of gain in the first preamp and only use little to no gain in the later stages. This will give you the best SNR.
The Zoom H1 has a weird quirk though: When you set the input level lower than 38 the SNR will get significantly worse. So, try to set the gain on the H1 to 38 and then use the gain on your mixer. This should give you optimal results.
@@JulianKrause Thanks, perhaps that was the problem - the zoom was set lower than 38.
@@JulianKrause Have been using a TLM 103/Senn 416 to John Hardy line level into Apollo Twin Duo and I noticed that when I would crank the gain on the John Hardy to a 90% my output/volume would be less and the noise floor as well. I guess the transformers were really working. Someone also shared with me that it would be 50/50 as far as distributing the signal so it would not bottle up. 50% percent on the external preamp and then 50% on the Interface (obviously not the Apollo's Preamps since they are overridden) but the line level signal. So about 54 db on JH and 20 db. on Apollo having a noise floor of about -65. Will try the method you suggested Julian. Thank you very much for your video ....Cheers and Happy New Year 2021.
@@ShroomJesus Again George, the "Apollo's Preamps" are not being used they are bypassed but the Apollo' Line Level Signal using a 1/4 inch TRS into Apollo not an XLR into the Apollo as you say (not using the preamps of the Apollo Twin, only the AD Converters) thus distributing the External Preamp and the Line Level at the interface.
@@ShroomJesus My noise floor is at about -65 and using 68db of gain for voice over it' peaks at -6 or -5. Please share George what do you mean by using a "transformer" you mean like a beachtek audio?
I've tested this back in the day with my first usb mic, the tonor q9, it has a volume rocker that changes the volume of the mic itself (not in windows) by 5% with each press. When you boot up your pc and the mic turns on it always starts at 50% gain, I used to record my voice and I was always annoyed by the snr. So when my pc booted up I always lowered it to 35% and boosted it in voicemeter by I think it was 5db. This actually made a difference in the snr itself. I checked it by looking at the db of the recording, once with speech and once without. My results were that lowering the gain did make the snr lower, I have no Idea why specifically that mic was so sensitive when it came to snr, it could be due to cheap components (the mic kit is like 50 - 70 bux) but I figuered that it had to be the cheap components. Since then, I've used a Rodpodcaster v2 (USB aswell), which had the same thing going for it, lowering the gain in windows and boosting it in voicemeter did make it less noisy. Nowadays I use a Shure MV7 (Also in USB [Sorry to xlr enjoyers]), but with this mic, I rarely think about the snr due to it being very quiete, so leaving it at 100% in windows and adding like 2 db in voicemeter with a bit of manual compression and eq makes it by far the best mic I've used and heard on my own voice to this day.
I paid for it and I'm gonna use it. Thanks Julian.
I learned that the source output (like a CD player) should be as high as possible without clipping.
That way you get the highest dynamic range.
If you have a low signal and have to turn upp the volume a lot on the amp you also turn up the "noise".
Thank you, Julian, for making this video. I have tried to explain this to boneheaded producers who rely on internet "experts" rather than sound engineering principles. This is only one example of a recording fallacy that has become widely accepted as truth. This is the first of your videos that I've seen. I will definitely check out others.
great value video!
do you know if press the "pad" button (on intarface) and increase the gain to compensate this signal reduction will increase SNR as well?
for example, SNR will be higher with gain on 4 and pad pressed or gain in 2 with pad released?
thanks!
leaving my tactical reply here. thats interesting, you could always use max-gain with the best SNR and not clip. :D probably depends on what the pad actually does.
Hey, interesting thought. But using a PAD actually decreases the signal-to-noise ratio because the noise of your recording system stays roughly the same while the signal is reduced. Yes, SNR gets better at a higher gain settings but it is not enough to compensate for the massively decreased signal. That's why you will end up with a much worse SNR. For the best SNR do not use a PAD. Neither on your mic nor the interface. Cheers!
Thanks for the info. It makes perfect sense. I tried recording one song at a lower gain recently and the mix came out much lower then the others. Making the mix post level of the mix too low. What you say is true.
Thank you Julian. I ve noticed that the better position of the preamp of Motu M2 with mics like Neumann TLM 102, KM 184, Sure KSM 141 and CAD E100S is in between 5 and 6 approx. (70 - 100 cm distance, scale 1 - 10), when I try to capture an acoustic instrument like a violin for instance. Otherwise, the mike as just you told is more noisy apart, captures more exterior ambient noise. Would be excellent if you make a video about experience with acoustic instruments. Thank you for the very useful tutorials! Regards from Mexico
Great Video! I hope you can make a video about how to measure and calculate the EIN of a preamp, like the one that you explain measuring the EIN of dynamic mics. Also, I am confused about the relation between EIN and DR. It would be greatly appreciated if you can explain that in the video too. Thank you so much! :D
10:26 I'd change the wording to say that the first step is to maximize the _acoustic_ signal _going to_ the microphone, and to them maximize the the amplification at the preamp.
Linked saved and ready to send to the next person to tell me not to raise my gain. Thank you.
I have the AEA preamp 2. Is it better to raise the Mic Gain option versus raising the output option ? Which one should be used more ? ❤️
So very well done ------- articulate, intelligent, organized and fine production values.
So useful!
I did a little experiment with the AudioBox 96 the other day. I carefully adjusted the game on the preamp to were my voice was right below peaking and then dial it back just a tad more singing about as loud as I ever would at any point of that track Resulting in the gain being at about 80% which is pretty high. I can't believe how quiet I got the AudioBox 96 to record. Didn't affect the song at all even with multiple tracks and post processing. It completely changed how I view this interface. I barely heard any noise and this interface is considered to be noisy.
Yet another reason I love my trusty old Presonus AudioBox 44VSL interface. It has 4 inputs, 4 outputs PLUS stereo monitor outs AND direct monitoring with a mix knob AND a very powerful headphone amp built in. 😊
Your points arr based on objective measures and not on ethereal thoughts. As an audio engineer I find very valuable the information on your channel. If you can include information about how you make your measurements it would be completely amazing. Thanks for your contribution!!!
Very educative and phenomenal video! thanks so much Julian! please make more videos like this.
great advice, what's the point in recording something that hasn't got a strong signal, you wouldn't ask someone with a delicate voice to sing into the mic from a meter away
Mate I appreciate your videos so much. Now instead of explaining the same thing again and again to guys looping audio misconception BS, I just send the link of your related video to explain the reality. Thanks for all your work!
I grew up on tape, so those "notions" were a bit different. Later, digital presented a S/N unheard of, but behaved worse when using "tape logic" concepts. The backlash was "don't try to saturate a DAW like you do tubes or tape" (we have those as plug-ins). SO, yes, do NOT ignore maxing out your input, but be careful, and 'get close' to it, but back off from red. As always, the earlier you can optimize ALL steps in recording (room noise, mic distances, etc) will result in better results at every further step of the process. It all adds up.
Good thinking, Julian!
My take away message for this topic is to use microphones with low ratings for both impedance / self-noise AND sensitivity. The lower the impedance or specified self-noise the better the signal to noise ratio at the microphone. The lower the sensitivity of the mic the higher you can crank up your gain to the reach maximum signal to noise ratio at the preamp. In practice though you always have consider the amount of gain your preamp can provide, which sets limits for the minimum sensitivity, of course. So its always a balancing act, taking all technical parameters into perspective.
Regards
Ellef
I agree that the mic should have low self-noise. But not necessarily a low sensitivity. The first step to getting good SNR is to get a strong signal from your mic. If the mic has a very low sensitivity, the signal from the mic will be very low. But regardless of the sensitivity of the mic, if you place the mic properly AND set your gain properly you will end up with a low noise recording.
@@JulianKrause The perspective I wanted to draw is that a lower sensitivity mic allows to push more gain at the interface, hence can increase the preamp SNR. A very "hot" mic could require less gain, hence decrease the preamp SNR.
@@ellef9331 Err, no. If you tried this in practice, you would find that the hotter mic actually produces the better SNR!
Let's say the mic is 5 dB hotter (but remaining a dynamic mic of same impedance). If you turn down the preamp by 5 dB to compensate, your EIN might worsen by 1 dB - but your noise floor still is 4 dB lower than before! The absolute worst-case scenario is that the noise floor stays the same. It can't get any worse than that.
The absolutely highest SNR that a dynamic mic can produce with a given sound level and on an ideal noiseless preamp is determined by its sensitivity and the thermal noise of its voice coil resistance. So the following are basically equivalent:
-59 dBV/Pa at 150 ohms
-56 dBV/Pa at 300 ohms
-53 dBV/Pa at 600 ohms
Practical results on real-life preamps are likely to be more or less skewed - my lowly Behringer mixer (EIN approx -126 dBu shorted ~= -124.8 dBu @ 150 ohm) would deliver best results with the 600 ohm one, being voltage noise limited.
Really clear and informative. Thanks a lot for this.
I've recently noticed a disconnect among many....they /we have to remember the preamp noise can not be added into the "room noise"........... totally separate sources, you cant measure preamp noise with a mic.........many think they can.
As a musician i've always recorded that way. Good explanation and thanks for debunking that non sense, cheers.
Really you explained it in a simplest way. I appreciate it. Because I was in the darkness of such problem. Thanks again
Thanks for this. The problem is not the gain but the data able to be recorded by the analog to digital recorder. If you could record at 32bit or more the gain is set to max where you have the best SNR and get no clipping because of the bit depth.
Ich danke dir für deine Ratschläge. Diese kommen mir echt zugute. Ich werde dich auf jeden Fall weiterempfehlen. Tadelloses Englisch samt Fachbegriffe verdienen auch einen Daumen nach Oben.
I already knew this from home audio/amp/preamps, but for some reason I didn't realize the same thing applies to Mic Gain. Thanks for the video, great stuff!
This should be required viewing for anyone who has just bought their first dynamic mic. I wish I had seen this when I got my sm57 before I started recording with it.
The Model 4 and Model 5 preamps from Gordon Instruments (which are no longer in production thanks to the global shortages) are unique in that they don't use attenuation or feedback to control the output level. The gain indicated on the knob is the _true gain_ of the preamp. Whatever your gain is set to is the maximum gain. I'd be curious to see you test it (if you can get your hands on one).
I just so happened to check the Gordon website and lo! They have just released the Model 6. I am beside myself.
Hi Julian, your channel is outstanding. Thanks for all your research and knowledge!
You are right, of course: the cascaded noise figure of attenuated amp stages is truly horrible compared to max gain - use a lot of gain for best bit resolution but I leave a bit of headroom to avoid transient clipping and for additional processing. Also, the best cascaded noise figures will be strong signals at the front end of the signal chain... that might not always be the most complimentary TONE, but it will absolutely have better SNR, otherwise as you pointed out, you are amplifying front end noise.
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Question: If the signal-to-noise ratio increases at higher gains, in the first demonstration, why didn't the first recording (recorded at lower gain) have the same amount of noise as the second recording when you equalized the volume? It should've had more noise.
I think because the level is not different enough. He has another clip that demonstrate the snr getting worse when record at lowest gain.
Awesome work!
The graph at 6:04 showed that the M-Audio Air for example dose not relay gets any better signal to noise if you increase the gain from 40dB to 55dB.
(Would love to see this graph in the reviews to get an idea of how much gain is real useful gain and how much could also just be digital gain.)
Also at some the point where SNR stops increasing, THD might as well increase and total "Signal to Noise+THD Ratio" starts to decrease?
Thank you Julian. Well explained for this newbie. And have yourself a happy 2021.
i got a mic preamp and the preamps in my rme fireface. i use the amp for some saturation and i am happy with the snr. But i i would put the mic directly in the rme i could probably get a better snr.
Julian...
You da man! Your explanations are always educational and backed by the science while explained in clear language. Once again, nice job.