David Olusogo is from Nigeria but he never mentions the renowned 19th century Nigerian slave trader Efunroye Tinubu. Even after the British banned slavery she refused to stop, saying she would sooner drown them. There is a huge statue of her in Nigerian in a square named after her. Yet Olusogo never suggests her statue should be pulled down and the square renamed like he did with our Edward Colston. Olusogo is an inventor of history and a Woke propagandists, he is not a historian.
The likes of this panel can discuss this topic til the cows come home. At the end of the day, statues do get torn down, but not by people like this. It happens organically and depends on many factors not least the version of history the people believe (at the time) and the political situation (at the time)
The self rightous black lady who wants reparations might wonder what her cultural heritage had done to their enemies , don't they then also need reparations given by her and her people to them ? How about instead , let's cut each other a little slack and go forward toward the future ...
Turns out the Guardian was founded in 1821 by John Edward Taylor , a wealthy merchant in Manchester who imported cotton from the American South . The Guardian News Paper argued in favour of using child labour in the horrific working conditions of Manchester's textile mills . After Taylor's death in 1844, the Guardian News Paper sided with the American south during their civil war and was against the Women's sufferage movement. . ... and yet Johnathan Freeland , Afua Hirsch and David Olusoga all work for the Guardian but didn't say anything about its history . .
@@spritesheets - so you've used a pronoun to turn this into a personal issue but presented absolutely no counter argument . This is a classic indoctrinated neo marxists woke response - there is not even a hint of critical thinking skills .
@@spritesheets - Obviously you enjoy and love Art - it helps define you as a person. What effect would it have if I told you the art you loved was garbage or connected to something immoral ? It would have the effect of hurting you personal identity . It would help discredit you as a person . Under the disguise of social justice , that's what is really what is going on here . When there is an attempt to discredit Beethoven, Mozart or the Group of Seven's Paintings , it makes it pretty clear this is about destroying the national cultural identity or heritage of a country . For the purpose of running a corporate globalist agenda . ... and there really are people in this world , who are this manipulative . .
@@peteredwards338 he does, he just doesnt think we should look at people as all good or all bad. Very few people throughout history have been pure saviours, and we shouldn't see them as such.
Afua Hirsch is very typical of a blinkered left wing activist. Lets just throw away all the good history about Nelson and Churchill because one or two people in their times criticised them. Firstly why should we trust or believe the opinions of people from decades ago, and what is the point? It's this constant looking backwards in time picking away at history and historic figures that achieves nothing positive, and causes division. We all need to look forward and work on improving things in the future, not keep creating upset and division by arguing about people who are long dead.
Simon Webb (History Debunked) is a pseudohistorian, hes connected with the far right and hes also interviewed far right figures and spoken at hard right conferences.
These are learned historians? History is replete with oppression, overthrows and the like. If people weren’t obsessed with identity politics, this wouldn’t be an issue. History has so much more to teach us, than to uphold our individual sensitivities.
I cannot see why people are so impassioned about describing why people shouldn’t get upset ...and then call it ‘a boring thing to focus on’. It’s only boring to focus on ...if it doesn’t upset you. If it’s so boring to you...why be so impassioned about keeping statues that make some people feel very obviously contentious figures uncomfortable in public? If it’s about education put them in places where people who want to see them can go see them
people (BLM) are judging modern day values and overlaying them over centuries old values. IF YOU VISIT HMS VICTORY ( a historical 18th century warship in portsmouth England) YOU ARE TOLD THERE ARE 2 LIFE BOATS. 1 IS FOR THE SHIPS OFFICERS, THE SECOND IS FOR THE OFFICERS LUGGAGE. THE SAILORS WERE ON THEIR OWN NO LIFE BOATS. THEY HAD TO SWIM FOR IT UNTIL THEY DROWN, Today there are lifeboats for everyone. That is todays values.
This is the type of civil debate we need to Infuse in the school curriculum to get the younger generations to research both sides of the argument, rather than being drip feed revisionist history
I certainly agree with the desirability of what you suggest. That said we must recognize that the trend in public education is to dumb down the material in order to accommodate more students who can claim to have received a university level education. Even if that were not the case, in our increasingly complex world, to be truly well informed takes a lot of time and effort on the part of both student and professor. It has always been the case that good teachers are worth their weight in gold, being so rare in reality. Furthermore a typical student [ late teens - early twenties ] has to have an eye towards earning a living after being a student, which has the knock-on effect that spending time studying some subjects [ and History is surely one of them ] is a luxury that few without private means can afford.
@Sofie Dunbar Yes - we are in accord here. Picking up on your quotation - Alexandre Pope's famous line from " Essay on Criticism ". In the " essay " [ really a long discourse expressed in couplets ] he describes how some knowledge once acquired leads one on to greater heights, and likens the journey to climbing a mountain in which, as we reach a position, new heights come into view and " heights on heights arise ". Would it were so. As you rightly point out too many students having learned a little assume they know much, so instead of trying to reach the greater heights, they prate about what they think they know. It has long been my contention that it is the duty of the state to train as many young people as is practicable in the basic disciplines in order that they can take on a useful position in the great scheme of things. That said I further contend that to acquire an education as opposed to mere training is the responsibility of each individual, and constitutes the work of a lifetime. It would seem that we have now a situation in which so called professors instead of training their students to think, and think for themselves, they are instead taught what to think. The inevitable result is, to use your word, cohorts of opinionated and dogmatic navel gazers who are convinced they are right. And since they are right, anyone who disagrees with them must therefore be wrong.
@Sofie Dunbar they won't rot. They are protected by law. The argument that the public can deface them or that councils can leave them to rot is flawed because the powers that be have said they must be protected and cleaned. Not to mention that metal statues take far too long to break down. They should be taken down and replaced with symbols that the local community want to look up to. I'm sure there's a million unsung heroes that would make better statues then any slaver.
@Sofie Dunbar maybe go and educate yourself on that Edward Colston statue. Where the wealth that he gave to the city came from. Maybe go and educate yourself on why statues are put on plinths, why you look up to statues and they aren't placed at eye level. If you believe that Edward Colston deserves to be looked up to for kidnapping and murdering thousands of innocent human beings, for enslaving thousands, then you're a pretty sick human being. I imagine you'd also want a statue of Jimmy Savile on your doorstep "for his charity work"? If you are so concerned about the history behind a racist murders statue, put the statue in a museum with context or allow the public to show their distain for it as they have done and will continue to do. In the past we blew up statues we didn't like with dynamite. Now they are all protected and listed. So the message they send is protected by law, even if we no longer want or believe in that message. Your argument is so flawed. It's based on your own privilege and narrow education. Because of this you can't see or understand the pain and suffering caused, to this day, by these statues and the celebration of the hateful, horrible, evil people they represent. Maybe go and ask some BAEM British people what they think of statues of slavers being present on our streets today.
This is the first Intelligence Squared debate I haven't enjoyed. Likely because to much of it was absurdity coached in modern terminology. First, the concept of reparations; Really? You're going to tax the working class of today, fighting to make a living for themselves, and whose grandparents were normally in dire straits as well, to pay for "Reparations", (despite the idea that these people are not victims) for what some rich people did 400 years ago? Sure, that'll work - what could possibly go wrong? Secondly slavery did not begin 400 years ago - it has been a human constant for thousands of years - so you want to punish to people who put an end to it? People might want to think that through a bit. Third, if you want to "fix" history, why start with the UK? The Blacks that were sold on the slave blocks were often from tribes other blacks and tribes had attacked. They had been captured and sold by their own culture and race, should you not be looking for compensation from the people who actually enslaved them? I think Black American Academic Thomas Sowell put his finger on it when he pointed out that "Have we not reached the height of absurdity, when some people are held accountable for things done hundreds of years before they were born, while others are not held accountable for what they are doing today." And of course, it would have added to the debate if Peter Frankopan had been able to stop shilling for more funding for history and other countries, and stayed on topic for more than a minute or two. That would have helped as well. All told, I wasn't impressed with the debate or the lack of intellect put into it.
Pulling down Edward Colston is like pulling down Bomber Harris. Really bad idea. It is like saying the dog ate your homework. It is like burning down the school to avoid lessons. It is failure to learn to walk AND chew gum. Failure to eat dinner before pudding and wash hands. Thank God for India. India may be what saves the world from China and Pakistan. What continental sized superpower might come to the rescue of our little Island’s idea of things if America is exhausted?
PRAJEESH P KUMAR ...And now, that moment in time, the film & photographs, the damaged (I don’t think they should even remove the graffiti) broken statue in the museum etc IS British History & always will be... 🤞
Britain reveres and gives their taxes to a monarchy that was involved, monopolized and made wealthy by the Trans Atlantic Slave Trade. How do British folks reconcile this with removing a statue?
@@ninobk196 Much of the industrial revolution and the economic expansion of the nineteenth century was financed by the compensation payments issued as a result of the Abolition of Slavery Act of 1833, as people sought to reinvest their money. How constructive is it to identify individual beneficaries, when a whole class benefitted?
I felt the "left" side was hyper-focused on emotion as a justification for removal, while the "right" side was underserved by the male speaker's laissez faire attitude towards statues in general. This debate, as others, tended to ascribe the historical knowledge deficiency to the statue - an inanimate object - instead of the contemporary viewer. It is not the statue of Churchill's job to teach about the life and times of Winston Churchill. That responsibility falls to the viewer if they want to see the statue as a more than just an artwork. Putting statues in museums does not teach the public anything if the public does not go to museums - and museum attendance has been steadily declining. If the average person in the UK doesn't know Churchill held bigoted attitudes towards Indians that may be a problem with the education system, not certainly not the statue. Notwithstanding, Churchill's views towards Indians pale in comparison to his leadership for Britain during WWII. The average high school textbook and curriculum does not have adequate space/time to go through every important historical figures flaws in addition to their accomplishments. That is for the professional scholar and history enthusiast. To me it will always be more important to remember Churchill as a critical leader in the most desperate hour, not a degenerate drunk and bigot.
Very easy to say if you’re not Bengali and one of your relatives didn’t die during the 1943 famine. In the end I think we need to own our differences. He’s a hero to you, a villain to me.
Churchill’s views of Indians were rooted in truth too. He was disgusted by certain Indian cultural practices like dung eating, urine drinking, widow burning and caste prejudice.
@@LonDanDocBengalis have died in famines for centuries - what makes that one so special? It’s more recent? Or is it just you like the victim narrative?
@Cromwellian Protectorate Republican only in the inverted world that you live in is a freedom fighter a terrorist, but a racist settler colonialist an innocent person. What is next, Hitler was misunderstood and the British empire was pacifist
@Cromwellian Protectorate Republican He wasn't convicted by his peers, the judge was white, the prosecutors were white, the law he by which was prosecuted was made by white people. It was a show trial in a kangaroo court. --------- On the "befriend" part, you should take a good look at the mirror and try to find out who leaders of the world befriended. Bush father shook hand with Saddam Hussein. Trump's rap sheet includes Erdogan, who's guard beat up Americans on US soil, Kim Jong Un, North Korea's little dictator, Xi Jingpin, China's strong man, Putin, who sabotaged US election, the list goes on. Oh and remember the little genocidal regime called Khmer Rouge that the US supported? On the other hand, Nelson Mandela's position was very clear and simple. In his interview with Ted Koppel, he said: "One of the mistakes which some political analysts make is to think their enemies should be our enemies," "Our attitude towards any country is determined by the attitude of that country to our struggle. Yasser Arafat, Colonel Gaddafi, Fidel Castro support our struggle to the hilt. There is no reason whatsoever why we should have any hesitation about hailing their commitment to human rights as they’re being demanded in South Africa. They do not support only in rhetoric; they are placing resources at our disposal for us to win the struggle. That is the position." So for you to suggest that Nelson Mandela "befriended" the respective dictators is disingenuous. He was being thankful for their respective support, and that's all there is to it. If a thief rescues a person in peril, he should be thanked for his good act, despite the fact that he is a thief. Any suggestion otherwise is an effort to try to muddle the water and to instill guilt by association.
@Jeremy Brookes Ghandi? Quite creative use of words. Since there is a complete lack of any sexual activities, all parties are voluntary, all parties are over 18 years of age, the most appropriate wording of such act would be *nudism* which is a completely legal and moral modern lifestyle in the West. Only barbarian savages would consider a person living such a lifestyle "sexual predator". On MLK, for man and wife to disagree politically is perfectly normal, and to blame a man for what happened after his death is beyond disingenuous. On the rest, if you want to advocate for tearing their statues down, go on right ahead. No one's stopping you. There is this false dilemma opponents of every movement seems to make: either make everything completely fair and unbiased, or do nothing at all. Needless to say, this is a false dilemma fallacy. It's just as stupid as saying, why arrest this thief, what about other thieves? What about this one, what about that one? Unless you arrest all the thieves, why bother arrest this one but not that one?
@Cromwellian Protectorate Republican Please cite the evidences proving that Mandela personally attacked any civilian. Remember that Mandela was charged with "inciting workers' strikes and leaving the country without permission" Which part of that is "attack against Civilians"?
@Cromwellian Protectorate Republican You meant the Church Street bombing in 1983? When Nelson Mandela was still in prison? To blame a man still in prison for something happening outside of prison is, again, beyond disingenuous. Again, I am asking for evidences. To charge someone on bogus charges in a kangaroo court is common practice, and means absolutely nothing. --- Regarding MLK, evidences, evidences, evidences. Rape evidences, rape watching evidences, rape inciting evidences. Where are they? As a side note, being a womanizer is not a crime (yet). --- Friends falling out all the times. Does not change the fact that they befriended one another at certain points in time, having no problem with past atrocities. Trump also personally admitted having great relationship with all aforementioned dictators, and praised their dictatorial regimes on many occasions. Regarding the rest, it is just your opinion which level of friendship is considered acceptable and what is not, and it's not an argument. I myself consider praising a genocidal regime a more undemocratic and horrifying act than praising such regime for render humanitarian aid, since the former is an endorsement and validation of their atrocities, while the later is not.
Statues mean nothing bit of public art makes a city rather than a village , villages don't have statues. If the people are so bad put up a plaque saying they are so bad . People are oppressed by statues? Grow up.. I was born Irish... Cromwell was an arsehole as far as I am concerned but who am I to say the Brits cant have their arsehole hero . It's their country. I have gazed upon his statue and I didnt feel oppressed.
Bla, bla, bla. Please start with what was the intent of the statue in the first place. No one or no single point is perfect. Even 'Good' is bad if that is all you have. One needs to compare, reflect, understand etc. So 'good' vs 'bad' or 'good' vs 'better'. It seems we are simply using the removal of statues as a rally point to demonize or control another section of society. But I don't agree that the installation of the statue is always to show power over a group or person. Use of the words confront, denial, dominate, white power, or a woman was killed because of a statue, all show that the discussion is accepting the only frame that was presented. Why not put a statue of Marx across from a statue of Aristotle or Cleisthenes. I am sure they were not perfect, saints or that someone can not find offense to the idea but that is a choice that is made by the community not the 'one'.
@Tinita Bondi oh your down with the what other ism. A bit like a mother protesting to the council for the lack of safe pedestrian crossings near her local school after her child is killed trying to cross the road. Your answer is to say in India there are 100 times more pedestrians killed every day on the roads than in Britain I don't see you going over to India and fighting for more pedestrian crossings, and when are you going over to India to fight for them . That is the pathetic argument you are using its called deflecting or alternative facts? A fav right wing debating tool .
This guy. D. Olysogua is not a real historian. He’s just a diversity propogandist.I have seen some of his documentaries and he talks a lots of nonsense . His intention is not to teach history but to create imaginary historical realities. Especially when he says that blacks have been present in British isles since Roman Empire. That’s totally not true and beyond nonsense
I would question the whole idea of statues to begin with. The fact is, even Ghandi and Mother Teresa have had their critics, and they bring up some valid concerns. I like what Kurt Vonnegut said about those who want to install the ten commandments in public places. He suggested instead that they use the beatitudes, "blessed are the poor..." Love, tolerance, let's listen to our better angels. Being kind and respectful of others is paramount.
people were not bothered about statutes till 3 or 4 weeks ago , in this country half of them done even know who they are and there background and im 48
Would they allow monuments to Hitler. Reasonable then in civil society those are behind evil like slavery and colonialism are also condemned and their monuments torn down.
@@Abraham_Tsfaye It wouldn't be suited in public place probably, but they should be conserved. The more tracks we keep about "bad" parts of History, the less chances they have to happen again.
people (BLM) are judging modern day values and overlaying them over centuries old values. IF YOU VISIT HMS VICTORY ( a historical 18th century warship in portsmouth England) YOU ARE TOLD THERE ARE 2 LIFE BOATS. 1 IS FOR THE SHIPS OFFICERS, THE SECOND IS FOR THE OFFICERS LUGGAGE. THE SAILORS WERE ON THEIR OWN NO LIFE BOATS. THEY HAD TO SWIM FOR IT UNTIL THEY DROWN, Today there are lifeboats for everyone. That is todays values.
The chap who wrote his diaries about Churchill was not a fan of Churchill, there is documented history about this. What they are not talking about is that there are more modern day slaves now than there were in the 1800's. I think the statues need to stay but adequate HONEST history should be taught in schools, not the twisted history that Britain has always had black people because it hasn't at all, the windrush generation were not invited by the government etc but getting unadulterated history needs telling to our children, that black Africans also had slaves and the African slaves were usually war captives or been convicted of a crime within the tribe and were sold by the tribe leaders, the biggest buyer of slaves were the Muslim countries and it still does go on now in some places, white people were also taken as slaves , Britain's were taken as slaves by black pirates, kidnapped from their beds or from the streets, drinks would find themselves on board too and these would be taken to African countries and sold so slavery has affected every race and country
The removal of statues, paintings, artworks, books, etc, because they offend some people is a currently contentious issue. We live in a democracy. A vocal minority should not dictate how a society should reward it's past heroes. The decision should be democratic. Here is a simple way of achieving this - Any citizen should be able to start a petition on their local government website to, for example, remove a particular statue. If and when the petition achieves more than 50% of the local constituents, then it should be removed. If it does not achieve more than 50% then the statue should remain, and the petition taken down after a stated period, (let's say 3 months). Inexpensive, fair, and democratic.
I agree with David about the Colston statue, but there is another way to deal with it. Public monuments are part of a public discourse. The best response is to reply with another monument. If he was venerated for the wealth he brought in, show where the wealth came from. Erect a companion monument to acknowledge the suffering of the slaves. Saying that he's a great man for doing good things while omitting the bad is propaganda. The antidote to propaganda is truth, not censorship.
@Sofie Dunbar It is a toxic word - my point being that if you say that we should go to Jamaica if we want to learn about slavery, then it would make it so we are enforcing that certain ideas have to be ringfenced in certain cultures. I think cultural apartheid is an apt term for that. I'm not trying to be a dick, or though I may sound like one a bit, but do you see want I'm trying to say?.
We remember people for their great deeds, and for what that meant to us. Not for every misdeed they've ever committed. And, yes, sometimes that can be politically motivated, in which case the discussion, at least, is entirely warranted.
people (BLM) are judging modern day values and overlaying them over centuries old values. IF YOU VISIT HMS VICTORY ( a historical 18th century warship in portsmouth England) YOU ARE TOLD THERE ARE 2 LIFE BOATS. 1 IS FOR THE SHIPS OFFICERS, THE SECOND IS FOR THE OFFICERS LUGGAGE. THE SAILORS WERE ON THEIR OWN NO LIFE BOATS. THEY HAD TO SWIM FOR IT UNTIL THEY DROWN, Today there are lifeboats for everyone. That is todays values.
Perhaps there should be a Slavery centre where schoolchildren in particular could visit and learn about The Slave Trade, the way they attend the Holocaust Centre to learn about the Holocaust. Statues are all very well if they're in the right place with information telling the truth about the thing they represent.
There's a good one in Liverpool: www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/international-slavery-museum There's also one in either Devon or Cornwall that shows how Barbary slave traders from North Africa used to capture entire English coastal villages as slaves before the British slave trade took off, and that up to early 1600's, England had lost control of its waters'. Sadly, there are actually more slaves today than at any point in human history, which I never would have imagined
Sure, so long as this "slavery centre" points out that slavery is as old a civilization and that uniquely the UK ENDED slavery worldwide! Attacking the statues is all part of the Maoist agenda: th-cam.com/video/JkfRG18ruXg/w-d-xo.html
You were conditioned to think about that @Sofie Dunbar. You've been emotionally swayed and influenced by change agents. Encouraged to adopt someone else's thoughts as your own. It's not true either. Here in the UK, with some of the highest welfare standards, very few animals suffer at all, let alone greatly, and lots of thought, effort and money goes into making sure their suffering is kept to a minimum You also haven't given two second's thought to the consequences of getting what you are asking for, and the huge levels of human suffering this would bring. Let me guess . . . you are a city girl with no direct connection to your food who has been to college or has loads of friends who have. You think it's normal to dictate to others how they live, in an authoritarian manner for the greater good, and have no problem denying the facts of biology for the sake of ideology, like humans being omnivores or having binary sexual identities. Free human beings scoff at the poorly thought out dogmas of the indoctrinated youth. Good luck enforcing vegitarianism on us, or your bizarre views on human sexuality. These may sound like great ideas to naive children, but what you are proposing is to force human beings to go against their human nature at the point of a gun. Any serious attempt to force your dogmas on the rest of humanity would likely lead to the deaths of millions, but hey! When have the facts ever stopped idealists pushing their agendas on others, no matter how many of us have to die?
I think the accusation is still valid to some extent @Sofie Dunbar but I apologize if I have misjudged you. I agree there are major welfare issues with livestock exports and certain slaughter practices, but yes, those in the business are overwhelmingly conscientious and committed to minimizing animal suffering at every stage of their lives. Some people would misguidedly seek to impose vegetarianism on ethical grounds, including eggs and dairy. A view which is widely supported by supposedly educated virtue signalling urban 20 somethings with no connection to their food or the land in general. They have no idea of how devastating this would be. Our biology is not open to ideological interpretation, and while I wouldn't dream of knowingly allowing any animal so suffer unnecessarily, I wouldn't think twice about using every resource in my control to avoid human suffering like hunger and poverty.
Why is it that David Olusoga and Afua Hirsch will discuss the colonialism that occurred in Africa more than a 100 years ago , yet they say nothing about all the Neo colonialism that is occurring in Africa today ? Why is that David Olusoga and Afua Hirsch say nothing about what Shell is doing in Nigeria ? Have these two ever said anything about the Belt and Road Initiative or the corporate exploitation in Africa that is occurring, or unfair trade practices ? See the only culture they try to discredit is Britain's or the US . As for Jonathan Freeland he wrote " Bring Home the Republic ." in which he advocates for the removal of the Monarchy. Does Freeland mention that the Monarch is Constitutionally the Supreme Governor of Church of England and is part of Britain's Protestant heritage ? So is Jonathan Freeland anti Protestant ? .
So the moderator Johnathan Freeland is a columnist for the Guardian and he wrote a book called " Bring Home the Revolution: The Case For a British Republic " So he wrote a book advocating to remove Britain's Monarch, who is the Supreme Governor of the Church of England . ... and now Johnathan Freeland is moderating a debate whether to tear down part of Britain's heritage. Did anyone ever notice that everyone of these statues is a Protestant ? It seems Johnathan Freeland 's opinions are quite clear . .
A slight correction to Peter's comment regarding Lenin statues. Many of them were, indeed, pulled down, however, many stayed. Just recently, when tensions between Ukraine and Russia were beginning to grow, it's the many remaining Ukrainian Lenin statues that got the short end of it, which, in turn, was understood in Russia, only somewhat justified, as an act of russophobia. And in Russia itself there is an ongoing discussion, among other things, regarding Lenin's body in the Mausoleum and the fact that maybe it's time to bury him, or about the Dzierżyński's statue that used to be on Lubianka, and that some argue should be reinstalled, now that 'ancient' Soviet past to a large amount of people doesn't look as terrifying compared to the 90-s they actually had the misfortune of living through or to the propaganda version of what happens in the rest of the world. In countries like Belarus, Moldova, or Kazakhstan Lenin statues are still a fixture and often even occupy main squares. On rare occasions previously removed statues get reinstalled when a Communist politician becomes a mayor, for example. So it's not as clear-cut as Peter purported.
Lenin is the exception that proves the rule. By this I mean I agree with removing statues of oppressors 100% but Lenin was perhaps the greatest political figure of his century and more statues of him should be erected!
Quick, quick, let’s re-write history and (try and) make White British people feel guilty because they have the audacity to be proud of being British and of authentic British history.
All the statue has to be is part of our history. You might not like some of the history behind the person. that doesn't matter, history is good and bad. Revere the good and learn from the bad. They have the Death Camps in Poland. A horrible part of history. But they maintain the Death Camps and the gas chambers so everyone can see it for themselves and never forget. Same with any statue. And when people did unpopular things in history, it's more than likely their only choice at that time under those conditions. The danger of tearing down our real history, they try to replace it with some other history that is a blatant lie. And there are too many fake statues that have been erected. Like the Mary Seacole statue. The woman was never a nurse, she was a restaurant owner. Leave our history alone. Because if it's okay to take down statues you don't like. It's a two way street. Others can take down statues that you don't like.
ANYONE WHO DESTROYS PROPERTY THAT ISN'T THEIR'S SPECIFICALLY. SHOULD BE ARRESTED AND PUNISHED ACCORDINGLY, ANYONE WHO ENTICES OTHER'S TO DO THE SAME, SHOULD BE PUNISHED EVEN MORE SEVERELY, REGARDLESS OF THEIR PERSONAL OPINIONS. END OF DISCUSSION
Can’t help thinking God is the only one to be venerated. Don’t make idols to worship, human kind is a sinner in need of a Savior Jesus Christ. He alone provides Redemption. That’s the World’s problem and always has been Genesis Chapter 2. Repent and believe.
I do not shy away from the appalling things that this country has done in its past but lets this into some context. Just about ever country throughout history has done something that they are not proud of be it slavery, subjugation of another race, religious persecution or genocide. But one of the interesting things I found about this debate is there was a lot of British basing over slavery but no one asked the question why don’t the Africans take ownership of their role in the trade because the trans-Atlantic slave could never of happened without Africans selling their own people into slavery. Slavery was common practice in Africa long before the white man arrived so it wasn’t something new just because the white man arrived. No Mentions the fact that between the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries African pirates raided our shores and took hundreds of men, women and children into slavery in Africa. Slavery in Africa continues to this day but the silence is deafening about that.
Can you please list these African slave traders? Any genocide or slavery relies on the cooperation of a certain amount of the indingenous population. For instance the Holocaust would not have been possible without Jewish collaboration with the Nazis. My last point is that it was ARABS who enslaved Europeans not AFRICANS
I disagreed with the removal of the Colston statue because of the way that it was done. People shouldn't be allowed to destroy a statue without favour to do so. There should be a vote on the matter. it worries me to think that statues like the one of Winson Chuchill in London might be destroyed because a few people decide that is what they want to do. If a person wants to destroy a statue then they should win the right to do so with a proper vote.
Celebrate good people. Memorialize them. Remember bad people. But don't ever celebrate them. Teach both in schools. History does not need Statues. Schools need History. The lessons of even a few decades ago are soon lost. 17th to 19th century Bristol is not 21st century Bristol. In light of recent events, I would not condone mob action. But I shed no tears.
Funny you allow a group to run to office and vote for the future of the world and yet all they do is moan about the past even though the one guy admits to no past slaves in his family. His efforts are being wasted on wrong things
14:40 So because SOME people are overly sensitive to topics they have a hard time comprehending, and dealing with emotionally, we should change the physical landscape?
Lord Hephaestus Weren't they advocating for them to be placed in a context where thought and reflection is included in their viewing, rather than their current context of aesthetics, and/or emotions? That sounds more like thoughts-rather-than-feelings.
The man in the far right ( surprise) sounds incredibly unprepared. The points he is raising in the beginning are just so trivial and weak that I am surprised he would feel comfortable being in a public debate tlike this. ( about how no one cares about statues and then about how other cities have lots of buildings and places built by slaves, etc)
But empire wasn't the most important aspect of modern British history. The industrial revolution (fuelled by tutors mercantilist policy and loom innovations) was
Churchill and Nelson were important figures in existential wars. I'm already aware that they aren't perfect. Don't care,national history is nuanced. We have statues of Cromwell,who certainly wasn't perfect ,why us no one demanding he be taken down.
It came to light in a recent documentary that one of Ms Hirsch's ancestors was a slave trader in Africa don't think we should be putting a statue up of her pretty soon and should be commenting on this subject with her family background anyway.
The Truth is coming into the light, because oppressed people who know the real truth, all of it, can no longer be suppressed. Like Maya Angelou said; "and still I rise." Truth sets us all free!
Arthur Wellesley was made Earl of Wellington in February 1812; he was made a Marquis in the August, so it remained his title, but not one he needed to use, and later he became a Duke.
Benny Hill is now bad ? Oh my god , why not humanity just be eliminated . I am not a chauvinist , but I loved Benny Hill . Oh my God , just a little slack people ...
'It's not that they love the poor, it's more that they hate the rich'. It's not that Olusoga and Hirsch are fighting injustice, they are feeding their own resentments. And platforms as IQSquared are providing them a place where they can express it freely.
That's what happens in a civilised debate. 1:13 They saw the irony when the Moderator mentioned that The Guardian Newspaper (who Olusoga and Hirsch write for) historically sided with the cotton traders.
Did the government know what trouble it would cause when it invited black workers to Britain ? I would love to know why it did that bcs we had European POW who were already being allocated to workplaces , many wishing to stay and work here . Now we are suffering a rise of black discontent and anger at what they see as an unfair and racist Britain whos very history they wish to erase . The evil is the fault of foolish governers who let em in !
When the British arrived in India, the subcontinent was dominated by the Mughals when the Spaniards arrived in the New World both the Aztecs and the Incas had conquered, enslaved and subjugated lesser smaller tribes. King Kamekameha and Shaka Zulu through warfare expanded their Kingdoms. But colonialism and Empire is only condemned when it was done by an European Power. Should the Modern Nation of Mongolia be shamed and force to remove their statues of Genghis Khan.....
Legally the people(Brits) there were invaders on foreign soil.You can try and shape it however you like but Europeans arrived first and caused havoc.Be a man admit your fellow countrymen made mistakes.Stop trying to make it your battle and move on.Time to grow up and move on.If you can't move on than sit as you bitterly watch the world change in ways you won't understand. Nobody gets to be number one forever.China is now the king,tomorrow it will be somebody else.
Only Europeans and Americans have the wealth and social comfort to worry about mistakes of the past. There’s a reason nobody else cares about their past wrongs, they’re too busy surviving. It’s unfortunately shocking that the virtuous activity of reviewing our past has turned into an industry of lies cynically used to indoctrinate the young for various purposes, mostly divisive. Our civilization has become so prosperous we’re devolving back into tribalism and that regression is being hailed as a Great Leap Forward.
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If Citizens of African descent in Bristol are offending by statues, they should then LEAVE
yes..maybe it will mean that before long, people won't remember there was a slave trade in Bristol, and then we can repeat all our mistakes all over again
I will be also glad when all the ,mosques are gone....a place where people revere a slave trader of Africans, and a religion that enslaved Africans for 1400 years of tears!
@@sstruyf89 That depends on what you mean by "doing fine". People can be doing fine in one area, but be completely disadvantaged in another. No group is a monolith. But we have ample evidence that - on average - black people face considerably more obstacles than non-PoC do. I hope I didn't come across as confrontational in my reply.
@MattAs with any electoral process, there are people that don't care about the issue enough to vote, people to young to vote, people ineligible to vote etc. If you you check out The Bristol Post or Bristol Live, they literally had to scour the streets to find a Bristolian who is bothered that the statue came down. People were taking their kids to the empty plinth for photos, to be a part of history and enjoy the atmosphere. This has put Bristol 'on the map'.
Toppling statues is a part of world history. Were Glasgow wrong to remove their Jimmy Savile statue? I've learnt more about Colston and Bristol in the last few days after the statue came down, than if it had stayed up with it's not very informative plaque. www.nytimes.com/2017/08/17/world/controversial-statues-monuments-destroyed.html
David and Afua as ever miss any context. Bristol was already the second city in England from about 1550, and a major trading centre in Europe. And will we ever hear either of them mention the 3 million white European slaves taken by the North Africans, Ottomans and Arabs?
are there statues anywhere in africa commemorating enslavers of europeans? trying to compare separate incidents over history to centuries of systematic enslavement of over 12 million people, affecting countless others and forming the racist basis of our society today is whiny and ignorant
"Weaponizing Public Spaces" - Afua Hirsch - actually it was the Victorians who came up with the idea of public spaces. I believe Birkenhead Park, designed by Joseph Paxton , which opened in 1847, is regarded as the first public park in the world. As a result, millions of people around the world have enjoyed public parks .
@@thezemi5Imperialism was what it was. Everyone was at it for millennia. I really couldn’t care less. But I do like old attractive places, and I don’t give a SHYTE if it’s offensive to a few people whose ancestors CHOSE to come and live here in our awful country.
I don't even know who many of the slave traders were. Perhaps the way of treating these objects rather than tearing them down is to add a plaque explaining who they were, good and bad. In this way they educate rather than simply commemorate.
Its immoral to promote or attempt to remove the Heritage of People and their Country. Doing so removes the Cultural Identity of People and makes them far more vulnerable. This applies throughout history and this certainly applies today. .
Agree with David Olusoga 's argument that statues of slave traders , like Coltson , should be removed. However, removing statues of Churchill, Cook or Nelson is clearly an attempt to de - legitimatize a Heritage and remove the Cultural identity of People . . When there is an attempt to de - legitimize Robert Baden - Powell and Alexander Graham Bell that spells it out loud and clear this is really about removing a Cultural Identity. .
By the same token, killing 30,000 slaves, Lincoln also, by declaring war, not compromising, northern aggression it's called by some, when only 1% of southerners were even slaveowners, yet more men died in that Civil War than all wars fought since, combined! So, by that logic, the slavery issue introduced as the primary reason for fighting, only later by Lincoln, shouldn't his status come down?
If only the amassing of statue pullers sat down in the same room with the institutions of imperialism and hacked away at themselves, their responsibilities and aspirations in the newest days of history. History is written down, it’s remembered but it sadly just not taught. It’s politicised with only the juiciest of facts and sandwiched in a warm bun of social media and click bait. History means different things to different people but my love of it comes from the story. Real characters that reveal the complexity of the fight, the right to live and how a civilisation is built around that. Great discussion, an unfinished discussion and motivation indeed to stop burning ourselves out with anger and live on a diet of concrete, facts, nuance and wisdom.
People should be educated on the good and the bad that said person did. You can’t tear down and try to erase history just because you don’t like it. History happened, yes some was brutal but it happened and looking at the past allows us to make sure it doesn’t happen again.
Monuments and public statues glorify historic characters. Hitlers statue doesent belong on the streets of Berlin but in the histoy museum. If you glorify slavemasters, go ahead and put their statues on your streets
In science, opinions don’t really matter: the world and Universe really do behave in a particular fashion. Either your conception of how the world works agrees with reality, in which case it’s valid, or it doesn’t, in which case it isn’t. Yet scientific arguments and debates happen all the time, even though they never settle anything. The only solution that’s scientifically valid is to obtain the critical evidence: a lesson we all need to be reminded of. The most important rule in any scientific debate is this: it doesn’t matter who wins the debate. It doesn’t matter who makes the better argument; it doesn’t matter who convinces more people; it doesn’t matter who votes with you. What matters is that you identify the key points of evidence that could definitively settle the contentious issues, and then you do your best to go out and find that evidence. Once you do, you follow it wherever it leads.
I have a suggestion: statues can be put up as long as the plinth lists all of their deeds - both good and bad. Then everyone who sees it can make up their own mind.
By not listening to people who have been historically repressed it further solidified a feeling of continuous repression . A bit of a paradox. We can’t make everyone happy, but there are certain times we should agree to try.
It should come as a surprise to no one that world history is replete with oppression, slavery, and a whole litany of bad things. Those who are complaining about how badly " their people " [ which is code for the particular group identity which the individual choses to most closely identify ] could equally argue in favour of keeping alive the memory of the oppression, or alternatively advocate measures to wipe out any lasting reminders that it happened. There is another alternative - shut up, stop whining and start doing something positive about improving yourself which should be a good starting point for the improvement of the world in general.
@@crustyoldfart It's deeper than this though. I'm a black born brit and all I learnt in school about why I'm here is the slave trade. Just because you can't empathise with a struggle, it doesn't mean that there aren't repercussions because history evidently defines the present. Especially when history has been severely white-washed to paint Europeans as saviours and civilisers. Ironically, some Greco-Roman studied in Africa. Yet in Britain, all we see of Africa are starving children with flies in their eyes, or sometimes wildlife shows. I seriously recommend you read George Orwell or Machiavelli. I see you know a bit about social psychology. Perhaps expand on that... groupthink works in both ways... maybe you can overcome your cognitive dissonance.
@@samyoe It's really sad that all that was taught you in school was that you were [ and by implication WHO you were ] was determined by the slave trade. There is no shortage of bad teaching anywhere anytime. My rather blunt comment above I feel is good advice to anyone. Just as what or who you are as an individual has little to do with what some bad teaching would have you believe, it is the basic belief of British culture that we become more the product of our own efforts - which includes individual effort and individual thinking. You accuse me of having ' cognitive dissonance '. I'm not sure what you mean. Perhaps you are accusing me of lacking empathy. If that is the case I am probably guilty as charged. As to Orwell I did read ' Animal Farm ', and also ' 1984 ' many decades ago. As to Machiavelli my knowledge of his writings is through translation, particularly ' The Prince '. I much later in life became a senior public servant in the Canadian federal system. I was much impressed by how accurate were Machiavelli's observations about Princes, and not to put our trust in them. [ Since princes no longer figure large in our current political regime, I think we can safely substitute ' politician ' here. So I identify with his views on trusting politicians ]. I think the same advice might be extrapolated to include historians, the main stream media, teachers, purveyors of religion .... and I could go on. Since you raised the writings of Machiavelli let me try to remember one of his quotes picked up while I was trying to learn Italian. ' gli oumoni vivono in pochi, gli altri sono poccarelle ' . Apologies if I have that wrong, but I'm going on memory alone.
No statue removals , you can't change history but you can explain it . Leave them up and explain them unless everything in the world should be destroyed as every age is part negative as well as just . All of Rome gone on and on ...
I don’t agree with pulling down statues, the issue is, is that these statues aren’t being put in context and the whole story is not being told. Refusing to acknowledge history in it’s entirety creates resentment and breeds denial. That is why in some cities those statues deserved to be toppled.
Generally true, but that doesn't explain all of the statues erected for Confederate figures, and especially in the context of when they were placed, in the 1960's. They were clearly a message to the blacks during the civil rights movement, a means of passive aggressive intimidation. If history is revised to be truthful and inclusive, to give the disenfranchised some measure of justice, that's a step in the right direction. Only the privileged and powerful would resist moving towards a more equal society. US history textbooks are also very untruthful in their portrayal of the genocide of Native Americans.
@@michaeljenner1795 And yet society moved on regardless. How many people gave the statues a second thought as they walked past? The only people who care are race obsessed far left activists who don't just want to pull confederate statues down they want to pull the West down and replace it with some egalitarian utopia that will end up like communist China. No thanks. I'd rather keep the mildly offensive statues.
This comment is true in terms of the title. The debate should have been more accurately titled 'Remove or Leave in Place'. None of the panellists argue for 'Revere'. Obviously they couldn't find any academics in favour of revering slave-traders and racists. Did they expect to? In view of this, the title seems a bit facetious.
![Would We Be Better Off Without Religion? - Christopher Hitchens [2007] ✝️ | Intelligence Squared](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/DIR7_X-ahy4/mqdefault.jpg)
When will the statues of famous slave traders standing in Nigeria be pulled down
David Olusogo is from Nigeria but he never mentions the renowned 19th century Nigerian slave trader Efunroye Tinubu. Even after the British banned slavery she refused to stop, saying she would sooner drown them. There is a huge statue of her in Nigerian in a square named after her. Yet Olusogo never suggests her statue should be pulled down and the square renamed like he did with our Edward Colston. Olusogo is an inventor of history and a Woke propagandists, he is not a historian.
@@Baboonfromdatoon Hes a modern day race baiter employed by the university of Manchester . inventing history to create hate .
@@Baboonfromdatoon David Starsky got a kicking for infinitely less offensive behaviour than Olusogo's traducements of truth .
When will the statue we were taxed to build to the Mau Mau in Kenya be pulled down?
The likes of this panel can discuss this topic til the cows come home. At the end of the day, statues do get torn down, but not by people like this. It happens organically and depends on many factors not least the version of history the people believe (at the time) and the political situation (at the time)
Proven to be spot-on 👍
Your comment has been proven by the historical event on 7th June 2020. Any more predictions including Lottery numbers are welcome.
@@tbay101 haha i wish!
what a fanastic panel, different perspectives and opinions but able to challenge each other civilly and uncynically
The self rightous black lady who wants reparations might wonder what her cultural heritage had done to their enemies , don't they then also need reparations given by her and her people to them ? How about instead , let's cut each other a little slack and go forward toward the future ...
Turns out the Guardian was founded in 1821 by John Edward Taylor , a wealthy merchant in Manchester who imported cotton
from the American South .
The Guardian News Paper argued in favour of using child labour in the horrific working conditions of Manchester's textile mills .
After Taylor's death in 1844, the Guardian News Paper sided with the American south during their civil war
and was against the Women's sufferage movement.
.
... and yet Johnathan Freeland , Afua Hirsch and David Olusoga all work for the Guardian
but didn't say anything about its history .
.
I don't think this is the gotcha you think it is.
@@spritesheets - so you've used a pronoun to turn this into a personal issue
but presented absolutely no counter argument .
This is a classic indoctrinated neo marxists woke response - there is not even a hint of critical thinking skills .
@@landsea7332 You can't be serious with this word salad.
@@spritesheets - Obviously you enjoy and love Art - it helps define you as a person.
What effect would it have if I told you the art you loved was garbage or connected to something immoral ?
It would have the effect of hurting you personal identity .
It would help discredit you as a person .
Under the disguise of social justice , that's what is really what is going on here .
When there is an attempt to discredit Beethoven, Mozart or the Group of Seven's Paintings ,
it makes it pretty clear this is about destroying the national cultural identity or heritage of a country .
For the purpose of running a corporate globalist agenda .
... and there really are people in this world , who are this manipulative .
.
Let them be I say. For fuck's sake, leave history alone...
Remove this dodgy so called historian Olusago.
Revisionist.. Race baiter.
He is a Historian. Im guessing you are saying hes dodgy because you dont agree with him?
@@ThepPixel He doesn't agree with history .
@@peteredwards338 he does, he just doesnt think we should look at people as all good or all bad. Very few people throughout history have been pure saviours, and we shouldn't see them as such.
Afua Hirsch is very typical of a blinkered left wing activist. Lets just throw away all the good history about Nelson and Churchill because one or two people in their times criticised them. Firstly why should we trust or believe the opinions of people from decades ago, and what is the point? It's this constant looking backwards in time picking away at history and historic figures that achieves nothing positive, and causes division.
We all need to look forward and work on improving things in the future, not keep creating upset and division by arguing about people who are long dead.
You people should watch “history debunked” TH-cam! The old fella does a video showing how much this David lies!!
Simon Webb (History Debunked) is a pseudohistorian, hes connected with the far right and hes also interviewed far right figures and spoken at hard right conferences.
Olosugas books were removed in our school library because of the lies throughout the book
These are learned historians? History is replete with oppression, overthrows and the like. If people weren’t obsessed with identity politics, this wouldn’t be an issue. History has so much more to teach us, than to uphold our individual sensitivities.
I cannot see why people are so impassioned about describing why people shouldn’t get upset ...and then call it ‘a boring thing to focus on’. It’s only boring to focus on ...if it doesn’t upset you. If it’s so boring to you...why be so impassioned about keeping statues that make some people feel very obviously contentious figures uncomfortable in public? If it’s about education put them in places where people who want to see them can go see them
people (BLM) are judging modern day values and overlaying them over centuries old values. IF YOU VISIT HMS VICTORY ( a historical 18th century warship in portsmouth England) YOU ARE TOLD THERE ARE 2 LIFE BOATS. 1 IS FOR THE SHIPS OFFICERS, THE SECOND IS FOR THE OFFICERS LUGGAGE. THE SAILORS WERE ON THEIR OWN NO LIFE BOATS. THEY HAD TO SWIM FOR IT UNTIL THEY DROWN, Today there are lifeboats for everyone. That is todays values.
@@RM-ov8gk you can take black Friday too plz
The against side didn't seem that pro-statues or keeping them up, they were arguing that other activism would be more beneficial.
This is the type of civil debate we need to Infuse in the school curriculum to get the younger generations to research both sides of the argument, rather than being drip feed revisionist history
I certainly agree with the desirability of what you suggest. That said we must recognize that the trend in public education is to dumb down the material in order to accommodate more students who can claim to have received a university level education. Even if that were not the case, in our increasingly complex world, to be truly well informed takes a lot of time and effort on the part of both student and professor. It has always been the case that good teachers are worth their weight in gold, being so rare in reality. Furthermore a typical student [ late teens - early twenties ] has to have an eye towards earning a living after being a student, which has the knock-on effect that spending time studying some subjects [ and History is surely one of them ] is a luxury that few without private means can afford.
@Sofie Dunbar Yes - we are in accord here. Picking up on your quotation - Alexandre Pope's famous line from " Essay on Criticism ". In the " essay " [ really a long discourse expressed in couplets ] he describes how some knowledge once acquired leads one on to greater heights, and likens the journey to climbing a mountain in which, as we reach a position, new heights come into view and " heights on heights arise ".
Would it were so. As you rightly point out too many students having learned a little assume they know much, so instead of trying to reach the greater heights, they prate about what they think they know.
It has long been my contention that it is the duty of the state to train as many young people as is practicable in the basic disciplines in order that they can take on a useful position in the great scheme of things.
That said I further contend that to acquire an education as opposed to mere training is the responsibility of each individual, and constitutes the work of a lifetime.
It would seem that we have now a situation in which so called professors instead of training their students to think, and think for themselves, they are instead taught what to think. The inevitable result is, to use your word, cohorts of opinionated and dogmatic navel gazers who are convinced they are right. And since they are right, anyone who disagrees with them must therefore be wrong.
Colin Bennett Kids should learn research & debate from BOTH SIDES that their local statues should stay or go! Great class for teens!!
@Sofie Dunbar they won't rot. They are protected by law. The argument that the public can deface them or that councils can leave them to rot is flawed because the powers that be have said they must be protected and cleaned. Not to mention that metal statues take far too long to break down.
They should be taken down and replaced with symbols that the local community want to look up to. I'm sure there's a million unsung heroes that would make better statues then any slaver.
@Sofie Dunbar maybe go and educate yourself on that Edward Colston statue. Where the wealth that he gave to the city came from. Maybe go and educate yourself on why statues are put on plinths, why you look up to statues and they aren't placed at eye level. If you believe that Edward Colston deserves to be looked up to for kidnapping and murdering thousands of innocent human beings, for enslaving thousands, then you're a pretty sick human being. I imagine you'd also want a statue of Jimmy Savile on your doorstep "for his charity work"?
If you are so concerned about the history behind a racist murders statue, put the statue in a museum with context or allow the public to show their distain for it as they have done and will continue to do.
In the past we blew up statues we didn't like with dynamite. Now they are all protected and listed. So the message they send is protected by law, even if we no longer want or believe in that message.
Your argument is so flawed. It's based on your own privilege and narrow education. Because of this you can't see or understand the pain and suffering caused, to this day, by these statues and the celebration of the hateful, horrible, evil people they represent. Maybe go and ask some BAEM British people what they think of statues of slavers being present on our streets today.
Two black people say remove, while two white people say don't.
This is the first Intelligence Squared debate I haven't enjoyed. Likely because to much of it was absurdity coached in modern terminology. First, the concept of reparations; Really? You're going to tax the working class of today, fighting to make a living for themselves, and whose grandparents were normally in dire straits as well, to pay for "Reparations", (despite the idea that these people are not victims) for what some rich people did 400 years ago? Sure, that'll work - what could possibly go wrong? Secondly slavery did not begin 400 years ago - it has been a human constant for thousands of years - so you want to punish to people who put an end to it? People might want to think that through a bit. Third, if you want to "fix" history, why start with the UK? The Blacks that were sold on the slave blocks were often from tribes other blacks and tribes had attacked. They had been captured and sold by their own culture and race, should you not be looking for compensation from the people who actually enslaved them? I think Black American Academic Thomas Sowell put his finger on it when he pointed out that
"Have we not reached the height of absurdity, when some people are held accountable for things done hundreds of years before they were born, while others are not held accountable for what they are doing today."
And of course, it would have added to the debate if Peter Frankopan had been able to stop shilling for more funding for history and other countries, and stayed on topic for more than a minute or two. That would have helped as well. All told, I wasn't impressed with the debate or the lack of intellect put into it.
Must watch today after Colston pulled down.
Pulling down Edward Colston is like pulling down Bomber Harris. Really bad idea. It is like saying the dog ate your homework. It is like burning down the school to avoid lessons. It is failure to learn to walk AND chew gum. Failure to eat dinner before pudding and wash hands. Thank God for India. India may be what saves the world from China and Pakistan. What continental sized superpower might come to the rescue of our little Island’s idea of things if America is exhausted?
PRAJEESH P KUMAR ...And now, that moment in time, the film & photographs, the damaged (I don’t think they should even remove the graffiti) broken statue in the museum etc IS British History & always will be... 🤞
Britain reveres and gives their taxes to a monarchy that was involved, monopolized and made wealthy by the Trans Atlantic Slave Trade. How do British folks reconcile this with removing a statue?
@@ninobk196 Much of the industrial revolution and the economic expansion of the nineteenth century was financed by the compensation payments issued as a result of the Abolition of Slavery Act of 1833, as people sought to reinvest their money. How constructive is it to identify individual beneficaries, when a whole class benefitted?
We should not remove statue s but wrote their history at their feet so future generations will reflect on what their beliefs was
I felt the "left" side was hyper-focused on emotion as a justification for removal, while the "right" side was underserved by the male speaker's laissez faire attitude towards statues in general. This debate, as others, tended to ascribe the historical knowledge deficiency to the statue - an inanimate object - instead of the contemporary viewer. It is not the statue of Churchill's job to teach about the life and times of Winston Churchill. That responsibility falls to the viewer if they want to see the statue as a more than just an artwork. Putting statues in museums does not teach the public anything if the public does not go to museums - and museum attendance has been steadily declining. If the average person in the UK doesn't know Churchill held bigoted attitudes towards Indians that may be a problem with the education system, not certainly not the statue. Notwithstanding, Churchill's views towards Indians pale in comparison to his leadership for Britain during WWII. The average high school textbook and curriculum does not have adequate space/time to go through every important historical figures flaws in addition to their accomplishments. That is for the professional scholar and history enthusiast. To me it will always be more important to remember Churchill as a critical leader in the most desperate hour, not a degenerate drunk and bigot.
Very easy to say if you’re not Bengali and one of your relatives didn’t die during the 1943 famine. In the end I think we need to own our differences. He’s a hero to you, a villain to me.
@Daniel Taylor no it couldn't (unless it was an idiot or a bigot doing the saying) PS this is NOT a defence of Churchill
Churchill’s views of Indians were rooted in truth too. He was disgusted by certain Indian cultural practices like dung eating, urine drinking, widow burning and caste prejudice.
@@LonDanDocBengalis have died in famines for centuries - what makes that one so special? It’s more recent? Or is it just you like the victim narrative?
Do we have Hitler statue? Nope.
Do people still learn about Hitler everyday? Yep.
So the "we can't learn history without statues" argument is false.
@Cromwellian Protectorate Republican only in the inverted world that you live in is a freedom fighter a terrorist, but a racist settler colonialist an innocent person. What is next, Hitler was misunderstood and the British empire was pacifist
@Cromwellian Protectorate Republican
He wasn't convicted by his peers, the judge was white, the prosecutors were white, the law he by which was prosecuted was made by white people.
It was a show trial in a kangaroo court.
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On the "befriend" part, you should take a good look at the mirror and try to find out who leaders of the world befriended. Bush father shook hand with Saddam Hussein. Trump's rap sheet includes Erdogan, who's guard beat up Americans on US soil, Kim Jong Un, North Korea's little dictator, Xi Jingpin, China's strong man, Putin, who sabotaged US election, the list goes on.
Oh and remember the little genocidal regime called Khmer Rouge that the US supported?
On the other hand, Nelson Mandela's position was very clear and simple. In his interview with Ted Koppel, he said:
"One of the mistakes which some political analysts make is to think their enemies should be our enemies,"
"Our attitude towards any country is determined by the attitude of that country to our struggle. Yasser Arafat, Colonel Gaddafi, Fidel Castro support our struggle to the hilt. There is no reason whatsoever why we should have any hesitation about hailing their commitment to human rights as they’re being demanded in South Africa. They do not support only in rhetoric; they are placing resources at our disposal for us to win the struggle. That is the position."
So for you to suggest that Nelson Mandela "befriended" the respective dictators is disingenuous. He was being thankful for their respective support, and that's all there is to it.
If a thief rescues a person in peril, he should be thanked for his good act, despite the fact that he is a thief.
Any suggestion otherwise is an effort to try to muddle the water and to instill guilt by association.
@Jeremy Brookes
Ghandi? Quite creative use of words.
Since there is a complete lack of any sexual activities, all parties are voluntary, all parties are over 18 years of age, the most appropriate wording of such act would be *nudism* which is a completely legal and moral modern lifestyle in the West.
Only barbarian savages would consider a person living such a lifestyle "sexual predator".
On MLK, for man and wife to disagree politically is perfectly normal, and to blame a man for what happened after his death is beyond disingenuous.
On the rest, if you want to advocate for tearing their statues down, go on right ahead. No one's stopping you.
There is this false dilemma opponents of every movement seems to make: either make everything completely fair and unbiased, or do nothing at all. Needless to say, this is a false dilemma fallacy.
It's just as stupid as saying, why arrest this thief, what about other thieves? What about this one, what about that one? Unless you arrest all the thieves, why bother arrest this one but not that one?
@Cromwellian Protectorate Republican
Please cite the evidences proving that Mandela personally attacked any civilian.
Remember that Mandela was charged with "inciting workers' strikes and leaving the country without permission"
Which part of that is "attack against Civilians"?
@Cromwellian Protectorate Republican
You meant the Church Street bombing in 1983? When Nelson Mandela was still in prison?
To blame a man still in prison for something happening outside of prison is, again, beyond disingenuous.
Again, I am asking for evidences. To charge someone on bogus charges in a kangaroo court is common practice, and means absolutely nothing.
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Regarding MLK, evidences, evidences, evidences. Rape evidences, rape watching evidences, rape inciting evidences. Where are they?
As a side note, being a womanizer is not a crime (yet).
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Friends falling out all the times. Does not change the fact that they befriended one another at certain points in time, having no problem with past atrocities.
Trump also personally admitted having great relationship with all aforementioned dictators, and praised their dictatorial regimes on many occasions.
Regarding the rest, it is just your opinion which level of friendship is considered acceptable and what is not, and it's not an argument.
I myself consider praising a genocidal regime a more undemocratic and horrifying act than praising such regime for render humanitarian aid, since the former is an endorsement and validation of their atrocities, while the later is not.
Statues mean nothing bit of public art makes a city rather than a village , villages don't have statues. If the people are so bad put up a plaque saying they are so bad . People are oppressed by statues? Grow up.. I was born Irish... Cromwell was an arsehole as far as I am concerned but who am I to say the Brits cant have their arsehole hero . It's their country. I have gazed upon his statue and I didnt feel oppressed.
Bla, bla, bla. Please start with what was the intent of the statue in the first place. No one or no single point is perfect. Even 'Good' is bad if that is all you have. One needs to compare, reflect, understand etc. So 'good' vs 'bad' or 'good' vs 'better'. It seems we are simply using the removal of statues as a rally point to demonize or control another section of society. But I don't agree that the installation of the statue is always to show power over a group or person. Use of the words confront, denial, dominate, white power, or a woman was killed because of a statue, all show that the discussion is accepting the only frame that was presented. Why not put a statue of Marx across from a statue of Aristotle or Cleisthenes. I am sure they were not perfect, saints or that someone can not find offense to the idea but that is a choice that is made by the community not the 'one'.
Well the Middle Class prefer to pull down dumb statues of the Bourgeoisie but not join the Working Class to remove the Class that put them up!
@Tinita Bondi True. Sad but true.
@Tinita Bondi oh your down with the what other ism. A bit like a mother protesting to the council for the lack of safe pedestrian crossings near her local school after her child is killed trying to cross the road. Your answer is to say in India there are 100 times more pedestrians killed every day on the roads than in Britain I don't see you going over to India and fighting for more pedestrian crossings, and when are you going over to India to fight for them .
That is the pathetic argument you are using its called deflecting or alternative facts? A fav right wing debating tool .
This guy. D. Olysogua is not a real historian. He’s just a diversity propogandist.I have seen some of his documentaries and he talks a lots of nonsense . His intention is not to teach history but to create imaginary historical realities. Especially when he says that blacks have been present in British isles since Roman Empire. That’s totally not true and beyond nonsense
David and Afua, two wokes with massive chips on their shoulders. So boringly predictable!
I would question the whole idea of statues to begin with. The fact is, even Ghandi and Mother Teresa have had their critics, and they bring up some valid concerns. I like what Kurt Vonnegut said about those who want to install the ten commandments in public places. He suggested instead that they use the beatitudes, "blessed are the poor..." Love, tolerance, let's listen to our better angels. Being kind and respectful of others is paramount.
Absolute bunch of puppets setting narratives
people were not bothered about statutes till 3 or 4 weeks ago , in this country half of them done even know who they are and there background and im 48
So
People were definitely bothered about these kind of statues before that. The debate you left this comment on is clearly indicative of that.
Let he whose ancestors are without sin tear down the first monument.
Would they allow monuments to Hitler. Reasonable then in civil society those are behind evil like slavery and colonialism are also condemned and their monuments torn down.
This comment deserves many more likes.
@@Abraham_Tsfaye It wouldn't be suited in public place probably, but they should be conserved.
The more tracks we keep about "bad" parts of History, the less chances they have to happen again.
Oh my god. David and Afua's expressions when Tiffany is talking are hilarious.
people (BLM) are judging modern day values and overlaying them over centuries old values. IF YOU VISIT HMS VICTORY ( a historical 18th century warship in portsmouth England) YOU ARE TOLD THERE ARE 2 LIFE BOATS. 1 IS FOR THE SHIPS OFFICERS, THE SECOND IS FOR THE OFFICERS LUGGAGE. THE SAILORS WERE ON THEIR OWN NO LIFE BOATS. THEY HAD TO SWIM FOR IT UNTIL THEY DROWN, Today there are lifeboats for everyone. That is todays values.
The chap who wrote his diaries about Churchill was not a fan of Churchill, there is documented history about this. What they are not talking about is that there are more modern day slaves now than there were in the 1800's. I think the statues need to stay but adequate HONEST history should be taught in schools, not the twisted history that Britain has always had black people because it hasn't at all, the windrush generation were not invited by the government etc but getting unadulterated history needs telling to our children, that black Africans also had slaves and the African slaves were usually war captives or been convicted of a crime within the tribe and were sold by the tribe leaders, the biggest buyer of slaves were the Muslim countries and it still does go on now in some places, white people were also taken as slaves , Britain's were taken as slaves by black pirates, kidnapped from their beds or from the streets, drinks would find themselves on board too and these would be taken to African countries and sold so slavery has affected every race and country
I boiled over at the same point. Very composed though
I noticed that too! Afua tried really hard to keep her composure.
@@louisecook6483 Britons weren't taken as slaves by by blacks , thats a stretch . The pirates on the Barbary coast were not black people .
Only British people have a right to talk about their statues, not Africans
A great shame no one in the debate pointed this out, or defended them as part of our cultural legacy.
Change your perspective not your statues....or can't you do that?
The removal of statues, paintings, artworks, books, etc, because they offend some people is a currently contentious issue. We live in a democracy. A vocal minority should not dictate how a society should reward it's past heroes. The decision should be democratic.
Here is a simple way of achieving this -
Any citizen should be able to start a petition on their local government website to, for example, remove a particular statue. If and when the petition achieves more than 50% of the local constituents, then it should be removed. If it does not achieve more than 50% then the statue should remain, and the petition taken down after a stated period, (let's say 3 months).
Inexpensive, fair, and democratic.
We live in a democracy where 95% of the institutions who control the narrative have the same viewpoint.
I agree with David about the Colston statue, but there is another way to deal with it. Public monuments are part of a public discourse. The best response is to reply with another monument. If he was venerated for the wealth he brought in, show where the wealth came from. Erect a companion monument to acknowledge the suffering of the slaves. Saying that he's a great man for doing good things while omitting the bad is propaganda. The antidote to propaganda is truth, not censorship.
well said
Well, he's now at the bottom of a river. That would have been a good idea though if it would ever have come true
I really like this idea.
@Sofie Dunbar I get it - you're saying a form of cultural apartheid is the solution.
@Sofie Dunbar It is a toxic word - my point being that if you say that we should go to Jamaica if we want to learn about slavery, then it would make it so we are enforcing that certain ideas have to be ringfenced in certain cultures. I think cultural apartheid is an apt term for that. I'm not trying to be a dick, or though I may sound like one a bit, but do you see want I'm trying to say?.
Olusoga the famous liar...
Asks for statues of woman... How about Margaret Thatcher... No not her! Wonder why?
@@lancer4709 Margaret Thatcher was the Prime Minister... for the love! What woman has climbed higher than that in this world?
TH-cam: History Debunked - Statue of Nigerian Slave Owner.
That guy is a fruitcake.
We remember people for their great deeds, and for what that meant to us. Not for every misdeed they've ever committed. And, yes, sometimes that can be politically motivated, in which case the discussion, at least, is entirely warranted.
why give the floor to this liar?
people (BLM) are judging modern day values and overlaying them over centuries old values. IF YOU VISIT HMS VICTORY ( a historical 18th century warship in portsmouth England) YOU ARE TOLD THERE ARE 2 LIFE BOATS. 1 IS FOR THE SHIPS OFFICERS, THE SECOND IS FOR THE OFFICERS LUGGAGE. THE SAILORS WERE ON THEIR OWN NO LIFE BOATS. THEY HAD TO SWIM FOR IT UNTIL THEY DROWN, Today there are lifeboats for everyone. That is todays values.
Perhaps there should be a Slavery centre where schoolchildren in particular could visit and learn about The Slave Trade, the way they attend the Holocaust Centre to learn about the Holocaust. Statues are all very well if they're in the right place with information telling the truth about the thing they represent.
There's a good one in Liverpool: www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/international-slavery-museum There's also one in either Devon or Cornwall that shows how Barbary slave traders from North Africa used to capture entire English coastal villages as slaves before the British slave trade took off, and that up to early 1600's, England had lost control of its waters'. Sadly, there are actually more slaves today than at any point in human history, which I never would have imagined
Sure, so long as this "slavery centre" points out that slavery is as old a civilization and that uniquely the UK ENDED slavery worldwide!
Attacking the statues is all part of the Maoist agenda: th-cam.com/video/JkfRG18ruXg/w-d-xo.html
You were conditioned to think about that @Sofie Dunbar. You've been emotionally swayed and influenced by change agents. Encouraged to adopt someone else's thoughts as your own.
It's not true either. Here in the UK, with some of the highest welfare standards, very few animals suffer at all, let alone greatly, and lots of thought, effort and money goes into making sure their suffering is kept to a minimum
You also haven't given two second's thought to the consequences of getting what you are asking for, and the huge levels of human suffering this would bring. Let me guess . . . you are a city girl with no direct connection to your food who has been to college or has loads of friends who have. You think it's normal to dictate to others how they live, in an authoritarian manner for the greater good, and have no problem denying the facts of biology for the sake of ideology, like humans being omnivores or having binary sexual identities.
Free human beings scoff at the poorly thought out dogmas of the indoctrinated youth. Good luck enforcing vegitarianism on us, or your bizarre views on human sexuality. These may sound like great ideas to naive children, but what you are proposing is to force human beings to go against their human nature at the point of a gun. Any serious attempt to force your dogmas on the rest of humanity would likely lead to the deaths of millions, but hey! When have the facts ever stopped idealists pushing their agendas on others, no matter how many of us have to die?
I think the accusation is still valid to some extent @Sofie Dunbar but I apologize if I have misjudged you. I agree there are major welfare issues with livestock exports and certain slaughter practices, but yes, those in the business are overwhelmingly conscientious and committed to minimizing animal suffering at every stage of their lives.
Some people would misguidedly seek to impose vegetarianism on ethical grounds, including eggs and dairy. A view which is widely supported by supposedly educated virtue signalling urban 20 somethings with no connection to their food or the land in general. They have no idea of how devastating this would be. Our biology is not open to ideological interpretation, and while I wouldn't dream of knowingly allowing any animal so suffer unnecessarily, I wouldn't think twice about using every resource in my control to avoid human suffering like hunger and poverty.
@Sofie Dunbar what's your take on the transatlantic slave trade or colonisation and Britain's involvement in it?
Why is it that David Olusoga and Afua Hirsch will discuss the colonialism that occurred in Africa more than a 100 years ago , yet they say nothing about all the Neo colonialism that is occurring in Africa today ?
Why is that David Olusoga and Afua Hirsch say nothing about what Shell is doing in Nigeria ? Have these two ever said anything about the Belt and Road Initiative or the corporate exploitation in Africa that is occurring, or unfair trade practices ?
See the only culture they try to discredit is Britain's or the US .
As for Jonathan Freeland he wrote " Bring Home the Republic ." in which he advocates for the removal of the Monarchy.
Does Freeland mention that the Monarch is Constitutionally the Supreme Governor of Church of England and is part of Britain's Protestant heritage ? So is Jonathan Freeland anti Protestant ?
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A prescient debate at the time, but we did not progress the issue.
So the moderator Johnathan Freeland is a columnist for the Guardian and he wrote a book called
" Bring Home the Revolution: The Case For a British Republic "
So he wrote a book advocating to remove Britain's Monarch, who is the Supreme Governor of the Church of England
.
... and now Johnathan Freeland is moderating a debate whether to tear down part of Britain's heritage.
Did anyone ever notice that everyone of these statues is a Protestant ?
It seems Johnathan Freeland 's opinions are quite clear .
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A slight correction to Peter's comment regarding Lenin statues. Many of them were, indeed, pulled down, however, many stayed. Just recently, when tensions between Ukraine and Russia were beginning to grow, it's the many remaining Ukrainian Lenin statues that got the short end of it, which, in turn, was understood in Russia, only somewhat justified, as an act of russophobia. And in Russia itself there is an ongoing discussion, among other things, regarding Lenin's body in the Mausoleum and the fact that maybe it's time to bury him, or about the Dzierżyński's statue that used to be on Lubianka, and that some argue should be reinstalled, now that 'ancient' Soviet past to a large amount of people doesn't look as terrifying compared to the 90-s they actually had the misfortune of living through or to the propaganda version of what happens in the rest of the world. In countries like Belarus, Moldova, or Kazakhstan Lenin statues are still a fixture and often even occupy main squares. On rare occasions previously removed statues get reinstalled when a Communist politician becomes a mayor, for example. So it's not as clear-cut as Peter purported.
Georgia still celebrate Stalins birthday every year with a parade in his home town.
Lenin is the exception that proves the rule. By this I mean I agree with removing statues of oppressors 100% but Lenin was perhaps the greatest political figure of his century and more statues of him should be erected!
Nope he was a bigot, kicked a dog once. Remove the commie prick from history
The PEOPLE decided - plus Lenin was within living memory.
Quick, quick, let’s re-write history and (try and) make White British people feel guilty because they have the audacity to be proud of being British and of authentic British history.
David, you said it was 19,000 deaths Colston was responsible for in the Guardian recently. Have the rest been found alive and well? I'm confused.
Sounds as if he makes it up, depending on how Anti-White he feels when wakes up each day.
All the statue has to be is part of our history. You might not like some of the history behind the person. that doesn't matter, history is good and bad. Revere the good and learn from the bad. They have the Death Camps in Poland. A horrible part of history. But they maintain the Death Camps and the gas chambers so everyone can see it for themselves and never forget. Same with any statue. And when people did unpopular things in history, it's more than likely their only choice at that time under those conditions. The danger of tearing down our real history, they try to replace it with some other history that is a blatant lie. And there are too many fake statues that have been erected. Like the Mary Seacole statue. The woman was never a nurse, she was a restaurant owner. Leave our history alone. Because if it's okay to take down statues you don't like. It's a two way street. Others can take down statues that you don't like.
"...enslaving ourselves by the past" from Tiffany. Wow, that's a special turn of phrase she's chosen to use... unbelievable.
Not her past!
ANYONE WHO DESTROYS PROPERTY THAT ISN'T THEIR'S SPECIFICALLY. SHOULD BE ARRESTED AND PUNISHED ACCORDINGLY, ANYONE WHO ENTICES OTHER'S TO DO THE SAME, SHOULD BE PUNISHED EVEN MORE SEVERELY, REGARDLESS OF THEIR PERSONAL OPINIONS. END OF DISCUSSION
I think to spend you life in the past to divide the present has no future.
As a historical figure, you should know lots about history
Can’t help thinking God is the only one to be venerated. Don’t make idols to worship, human kind is a sinner in need of a Savior Jesus Christ. He alone provides Redemption. That’s the World’s problem and always has been Genesis Chapter 2. Repent and believe.
I do not shy away from the appalling things that this country has done in its past but lets this into some context. Just about ever country throughout history has done something that they are not proud of be it slavery, subjugation of another race, religious persecution or genocide. But one of the interesting things I found about this debate is there was a lot of British basing over slavery but no one asked the question why don’t the Africans take ownership of their role in the trade because the trans-Atlantic slave could never of happened without Africans selling their own people into slavery. Slavery was common practice in Africa long before the white man arrived so it wasn’t something new just because the white man arrived. No Mentions the fact that between the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries African pirates raided our shores and took hundreds of men, women and children into slavery in Africa. Slavery in Africa continues to this day but the silence is deafening about that.
Can you please list these African slave traders? Any genocide or slavery relies on the cooperation of a certain amount of the indingenous population. For instance the Holocaust would not have been possible without Jewish collaboration with the Nazis. My last point is that it was ARABS who enslaved Europeans not AFRICANS
Two wrongs don’t make a right
I disagreed with the removal of the Colston statue because of the way that it was done. People shouldn't be allowed to destroy a statue without favour to do so. There should be a vote on the matter. it worries me to think that statues like the one of Winson Chuchill in London might be destroyed because a few people decide that is what they want to do. If a person wants to destroy a statue then they should win the right to do so with a proper vote.
Celebrate good people. Memorialize them. Remember bad people. But don't ever celebrate them. Teach both in schools. History does not need Statues. Schools need History. The lessons of even a few decades ago are soon lost. 17th to 19th century Bristol is not 21st century Bristol. In light of recent events, I would not condone mob action. But I shed no tears.
Funny you allow a group to run to office and vote for the future of the world and yet all they do is moan about the past even though the one guy admits to no past slaves in his family. His efforts are being wasted on wrong things
14:40 So because SOME people are overly sensitive to topics they have a hard time comprehending, and dealing with emotionally, we should change the physical landscape?
The pro removal side is a perfect representation of the modern PC, feelings-rather-than- thoughts based approach to society and history.
Lord Hephaestus Weren't they advocating for them to be placed in a context where thought and reflection is included in their viewing, rather than their current context of aesthetics, and/or emotions? That sounds more like thoughts-rather-than-feelings.
Yes by your logic, lets have giant Hitler statue in Berlin and its parliament.
The man in the far right ( surprise) sounds incredibly unprepared. The points he is raising in the beginning are just so trivial and weak that I am surprised he would feel comfortable being in a public debate tlike this. ( about how no one cares about statues and then about how other cities have lots of buildings and places built by slaves, etc)
I agree. It was more surprising to learn that he is a historian.
Intelligence Squared but has David Olusoga on haha.
The second speaker referred to the Glasgow statue of the "Earl of Wellington". If you're going to debate the historical, get the basics right.
But empire wasn't the most important aspect of modern British history.
The industrial revolution (fuelled by tutors mercantilist policy and loom innovations) was
Churchill and Nelson were important figures in existential wars.
I'm already aware that they aren't perfect.
Don't care,national history is nuanced.
We have statues of Cromwell,who certainly wasn't perfect ,why us no one demanding he be taken down.
They are
Yes the Mandela statue is boring.
1:14:20 Mother Theresa was a terrible person, not a good one.
It came to light in a recent documentary that one of Ms Hirsch's ancestors was a slave trader in Africa don't think we should be putting a statue up of her pretty soon and should be commenting on this subject with her family background anyway.
If you don't like the statues, then you should leave
The Truth is coming into the light, because oppressed people who know the real truth, all of it, can no longer be suppressed. Like Maya Angelou said; "and still I rise." Truth sets us all free!
@Evan 17 you are out of your league, we dont use the word "tosser" in usa, deal with your own country!
@Evan 17 yes that is obvious moron.
Please don't believe a word Olusoga says. His book 'Black and British' is basically full of lies. I wouldn't mind a public debate on that.
I am curious about this guy. He seems well balanced I think. What do you think he has lied about?
Anyone heard of the Earl of Wellington ?
Arthur Wellesley was made Earl of Wellington in February 1812; he was made a Marquis in the August, so it remained his title, but not one he needed to use, and later he became a Duke.
Christopher Seton-Smith Didn’t know that. Thanks
Benny Hill is now bad ? Oh my god , why not humanity just be eliminated . I am not a chauvinist , but I loved Benny Hill . Oh my God , just a little slack people ...
He has always been grotesque, you just don't/refuse to see it.
'It's not that they love the poor, it's more that they hate the rich'. It's not that Olusoga and Hirsch are fighting injustice, they are feeding their own resentments. And platforms as IQSquared are providing them a place where they can express it freely.
That's what happens in a civilised debate. 1:13 They saw the irony when the Moderator mentioned that The Guardian Newspaper (who Olusoga and Hirsch write for) historically sided with the cotton traders.
Agreed.
False dichotomy. We don't have to revere or remove.
We need to educate. Unfortunately, history has been severely white-washed.
Seem to recall that the ashanti wars were about slavery. One of the major slaving nations in Africa.
Did the government know what trouble it would cause when it invited black workers to Britain ? I would love to know why it did that bcs we had European POW who were already being allocated to workplaces , many wishing to stay and work here .
Now we are suffering a rise of black discontent and anger at what they see as an unfair and racist Britain whos very history they wish to erase .
The evil is the fault of foolish governers who let em in !
We can always get 'em out, never fear.
When the British arrived in India, the subcontinent was dominated by the Mughals when the Spaniards arrived in the New World both the Aztecs and the Incas had conquered, enslaved and subjugated lesser smaller tribes. King Kamekameha and Shaka Zulu through warfare expanded their Kingdoms. But colonialism and Empire is only condemned when it was done by an European Power. Should the Modern Nation of Mongolia be shamed and force to remove their statues of Genghis Khan.....
Legally the people(Brits) there were invaders on foreign soil.You can try and shape it however you like but Europeans arrived first and caused havoc.Be a man admit your fellow countrymen made mistakes.Stop trying to make it your battle and move on.Time to grow up and move on.If you can't move on than sit as you bitterly watch the world change in ways you won't understand. Nobody gets to be number one forever.China is now the king,tomorrow it will be somebody else.
It's the bigotry of low expectations.
Only Europeans and Americans have the wealth and social comfort to worry about mistakes of the past. There’s a reason nobody else cares about their past wrongs, they’re too busy surviving. It’s unfortunately shocking that the virtuous activity of reviewing our past has turned into an industry of lies cynically used to indoctrinate the young for various purposes, mostly divisive. Our civilization has become so prosperous we’re devolving back into tribalism and that regression is being hailed as a Great Leap Forward.
If Citizens of African descent in Bristol are offending by statues, they should then LEAVE
OFFENDED....
I am glad this statue of a slave trader is gone
Very good body
yes..maybe it will mean that before long, people won't remember there was a slave trade in Bristol, and then we can repeat all our mistakes all over again
I will be also glad when all the ,mosques are gone....a place where people revere a slave trader of Africans, and a religion that enslaved Africans for 1400 years of tears!
@@jamesharris4687 we learn about history in books not in the statues meant to revere individuals
Censorship taking place in the comments section big time people don't wanna hear different opinions.I
I've grown up and lived in Louisiana my entire life. I know what these statues are for. They need to come down.
Jessery what are they for though? I dont think black folks care about this stuff man. They just want jobs
@@sstruyf89 Have you watched the video?
Jessery yeah just now , they were set up to scare black folks, but i dont think it worked! Blacks are doing fine in louisiana
I visited America once and it looked like African americans thriving! They dont care bout no dang statue
@@sstruyf89 That depends on what you mean by "doing fine". People can be doing fine in one area, but be completely disadvantaged in another. No group is a monolith. But we have ample evidence that - on average - black people face considerably more obstacles than non-PoC do. I hope I didn't come across as confrontational in my reply.
How can you decolonization the curriculum? Who were we colonised by?
The Romans , Vikings, Normans and now the Corporate Globalists.
as the lady with pink hair said, "let the people do with the statues as they see fit.."....this debate has thus been nicely settled...
Indeed
...and so the Colston statue was dumped into the River Avon on 7th June 2020.
@@tbay101 precisely! true democracy in motion!
@MattAs with any electoral process, there are people that don't care about the issue enough to vote, people to young to vote, people ineligible to vote etc. If you you check out The Bristol Post or Bristol Live, they literally had to scour the streets to find a Bristolian who is bothered that the statue came down. People were taking their kids to the empty plinth for photos, to be a part of history and enjoy the atmosphere. This has put Bristol 'on the map'.
Toppling statues is a part of world history. Were Glasgow wrong to remove their Jimmy Savile statue? I've learnt more about Colston and Bristol in the last few days after the statue came down, than if it had stayed up with it's not very informative plaque. www.nytimes.com/2017/08/17/world/controversial-statues-monuments-destroyed.html
Pretty people get to say the dumbest s*** without being called on it
David and Afua as ever miss any context. Bristol was already the second city in England from about 1550, and a major trading centre in Europe. And will we ever hear either of them mention the 3 million white European slaves taken by the North Africans, Ottomans and Arabs?
are there statues anywhere in africa commemorating enslavers of europeans? trying to compare separate incidents over history to centuries of systematic enslavement of over 12 million people, affecting countless others and forming the racist basis of our society today is whiny and ignorant
Why were the opposing sides separated by race? Where are the rest of modern day Britons in this debate?
Yeah it's weird, there's tons of native anglo that oppose those statues.. why wouldn't they find a few to not make it so racially segregated.
I would love to hear a discission of why Charles Gordon's statue was taken down from Trafalgar Square.
Removal accompany social changes; the premise of the talk is sicial change.
"Weaponizing Public Spaces" - Afua Hirsch - actually it was the Victorians who came up with the idea of public spaces.
I believe Birkenhead Park, designed by Joseph Paxton , which opened in 1847, is regarded as the first public park in the world. As a result, millions of people around the world have enjoyed public parks .
That is neither here nor there. Or is the idea to highlight "imperialism was good"?
Afua Hirsch should f*** off to a country where she feels less ‘oppressed’.
@@thezemi5Imperialism was what it was. Everyone was at it for millennia. I really couldn’t care less. But I do like old attractive places, and I don’t give a SHYTE if it’s offensive to a few people whose ancestors CHOSE to come and live here in our awful country.
I don't even know who many of the slave traders were.
Perhaps the way of treating these objects rather than tearing them down is to add a plaque explaining who they were, good and bad.
In this way they educate rather than simply commemorate.
Its immoral to promote or attempt to remove the Heritage of People and their Country.
Doing so removes the Cultural Identity of People and makes them far more vulnerable.
This applies throughout history and this certainly applies today.
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Agree with David Olusoga 's argument that statues of slave traders , like Coltson , should be removed.
However, removing statues of Churchill, Cook or Nelson
is clearly an attempt to de - legitimatize a Heritage and remove the Cultural identity of People .
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When there is an attempt to de - legitimize Robert Baden - Powell and Alexander Graham Bell
that spells it out loud and clear this is really about removing a Cultural Identity.
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By the same token, killing 30,000 slaves, Lincoln also, by declaring war, not compromising, northern aggression it's called by some, when only 1% of southerners were even slaveowners, yet more men died in that Civil War than all wars fought since, combined! So, by that logic, the slavery issue introduced as the primary reason for fighting, only later by Lincoln, shouldn't his status come down?
They’re taking down his statues.
Intelligent debate...what a welcome change !
If only the amassing of statue pullers sat down in the same room with the institutions of imperialism and hacked away at themselves, their responsibilities and aspirations in the newest days of history. History is written down, it’s remembered but it sadly just not taught. It’s politicised with only the juiciest of facts and sandwiched in a warm bun of social media and click bait. History means different things to different people but my love of it comes from the story. Real characters that reveal the complexity of the fight, the right to live and how a civilisation is built around that. Great discussion, an unfinished discussion and motivation indeed to stop burning ourselves out with anger and live on a diet of concrete, facts, nuance and wisdom.
Now this is a debate.
People should be educated on the good and the bad that said person did. You can’t tear down and try to erase history just because you don’t like it. History happened, yes some was brutal but it happened and looking at the past allows us to make sure it doesn’t happen again.
Are you aware that nation's erect and keep statues,monuments etc as a reflection of their traditions and believe?
Monuments and public statues glorify historic characters. Hitlers statue doesent belong on the streets of Berlin but in the histoy museum. If you glorify slavemasters, go ahead and put their statues on your streets
In science, opinions don’t really matter: the world and Universe really do behave in a particular fashion. Either your conception of how the world works agrees with reality, in which case it’s valid, or it doesn’t, in which case it isn’t. Yet scientific arguments and debates happen all the time, even though they never settle anything. The only solution that’s scientifically valid is to obtain the critical evidence: a lesson we all need to be reminded of. The most important rule in any scientific debate is this: it doesn’t matter who wins the debate. It doesn’t matter who makes the better argument; it doesn’t matter who convinces more people; it doesn’t matter who votes with you. What matters is that you identify the key points of evidence that could definitively settle the contentious issues, and then you do your best to go out and find that evidence. Once you do, you follow it wherever it leads.
I have a suggestion: statues can be put up as long as the plinth lists all of their deeds - both good and bad. Then everyone who sees it can make up their own mind.
If you actually think these communists are interested in truth then you are mistaken!
@@ironfelix2963 Omg the cold war is over GET OVER IT!! You're just saying that cos it's a truth you don't like.
Just because someone has hurt feelings does not mean we need to initiate societal change.
By not listening to people who have been historically repressed it further solidified a feeling of continuous repression . A bit of a paradox. We can’t make everyone happy, but there are certain times we should agree to try.
It should come as a surprise to no one that world history is replete with oppression, slavery, and a whole litany of bad things. Those who are complaining about how badly " their people " [ which is code for the particular group identity which the individual choses to most closely identify ] could equally argue in favour of keeping alive the memory of the oppression, or alternatively advocate measures to wipe out any lasting reminders that it happened. There is another alternative - shut up, stop whining and start doing something positive about improving yourself which should be a good starting point for the improvement of the world in general.
@@crustyoldfart It's deeper than this though. I'm a black born brit and all I learnt in school about why I'm here is the slave trade. Just because you can't empathise with a struggle, it doesn't mean that there aren't repercussions because history evidently defines the present. Especially when history has been severely white-washed to paint Europeans as saviours and civilisers. Ironically, some Greco-Roman studied in Africa. Yet in Britain, all we see of Africa are starving children with flies in their eyes, or sometimes wildlife shows. I seriously recommend you read George Orwell or Machiavelli. I see you know a bit about social psychology. Perhaps expand on that... groupthink works in both ways... maybe you can overcome your cognitive dissonance.
@@samyoe It's really sad that all that was taught you in school was that you were [ and by implication WHO you were ] was determined by the slave trade. There is no shortage of bad teaching anywhere anytime. My rather blunt comment above I feel is good advice to anyone. Just as what or who you are as an individual has little to do with what some bad teaching would have you believe, it is the basic belief of British culture that we become more the product of our own efforts - which includes individual effort and individual thinking.
You accuse me of having ' cognitive dissonance '. I'm not sure what you mean. Perhaps you are accusing me of lacking empathy. If that is the case I am probably guilty as charged. As to Orwell I did read ' Animal Farm ', and also ' 1984 ' many decades ago. As to Machiavelli my knowledge of his writings is through translation, particularly ' The Prince '. I much later in life became a senior public servant in the Canadian federal system. I was much impressed by how accurate were Machiavelli's observations about Princes, and not to put our trust in them. [ Since princes no longer figure large in our current political regime, I think we can safely substitute ' politician ' here. So I identify with his views on trusting politicians ]. I think the same advice might be extrapolated to include historians, the main stream media, teachers, purveyors of religion .... and I could go on.
Since you raised the writings of Machiavelli let me try to remember one of his quotes picked up while I was trying to learn Italian. ' gli oumoni vivono in pochi, gli altri sono poccarelle ' . Apologies if I have that wrong, but I'm going on memory alone.
@@crustyoldfart and for those of us too ignorant to be able to read Italian?
@@CBfrmcardiff You could try entering the phrase in Google or some other good search engine.
Robert E. Lee ... CSA ... community supported agriculture
The Taliban would have felt moral and justified in destroying the Buddhas of Bamyan.
The Taliban weren't suppressed or oppressed by Buddha. But an idiot like you probably doesn't comprehend the point i've just made.
Haha stay classy TH-cam.
I would’ve hoped an IQ2 debate may have had a higher standard of comments...apparently not.
No statue removals , you can't change history but you can explain it . Leave them up and explain them unless everything in the world should be destroyed as every age is part negative as well as just . All of Rome gone on and on ...
I don’t agree with pulling down statues, the issue is, is that these statues aren’t being put in context and the whole story is not being told. Refusing to acknowledge history in it’s entirety creates resentment and breeds denial. That is why in some cities those statues deserved to be toppled.
Great discussion on about our shared connected histories, but as the famous quote states " History is written on behalf of the winner"
Generally true, but that doesn't explain all of the statues erected for Confederate figures, and especially in the context of when they were placed, in the 1960's. They were clearly a message to the blacks during the civil rights movement, a means of passive aggressive intimidation. If history is revised to be truthful and inclusive, to give the disenfranchised some measure of justice, that's a step in the right direction. Only the privileged and powerful would resist moving towards a more equal society. US history textbooks are also very untruthful in their portrayal of the genocide of Native Americans.
@@michaeljenner1795 And yet society moved on regardless. How many people gave the statues a second thought as they walked past? The only people who care are race obsessed far left activists who don't just want to pull confederate statues down they want to pull the West down and replace it with some egalitarian utopia that will end up like communist China. No thanks. I'd rather keep the mildly offensive statues.
Well, not surprisingly, your stellar panel is all on one side. This is not a debate. A debate requires two sides.
This comment is true in terms of the title. The debate should have been more accurately titled 'Remove or Leave in Place'. None of the panellists argue for 'Revere'. Obviously they couldn't find any academics in favour of revering slave-traders and racists. Did they expect to? In view of this, the title seems a bit facetious.