@@camofpv also they completely forgot to add the weight of a human to the nose of the craft (or a simulated, to scale weight) so im predicting a phenomenal nosedive at flugtag
I don't think that many teams think about ground effect. That's where a lot of competitors get the distance. I'd design something to take advantage of that. Also slow flight means large control surfaces so why not just use the whole stabilizer as an elevator?
There was one Flugtag team that set up a gravity powered catapult to launch their plane using a few of the team members to run forward and jump off of the platform providing the weight to power the catapult
Here’s a thought for the future, making a little push platform for the scaled down models so you can get a more accurate representation of what will happen at flugtug
The launch from the barge and the first 1 second of flight are most critical in this event. You will need to apply your engineering skills to the full scale launch phase. After launch, make sure your spars can handle the load. Good luck! I'm rooting for you!
I would be working on the launching more than anything if you could add a line to the launch cart to the aircraft so as to turn it into a kite and gain altitude and speed then quick release
One design years ago incorporated a rail launching device geared to the sled wheels in order to increase forward acceleration before the Edge... Think slingshot effect!😅
If they used a tall tower to launch from, they not only woul get extra height to start but it could be a catapult using the ropes attached at top as a fulcrum, so when they jump off it throws the plane off the end like a trebuchet
Or offroad recovery rope. Definitely was thinking of some sort of energy recovery setup where the cart falling away has some sort of delayed arm that transfers some of that to the glider.
What if instead of trying to fly right away, you use the height to gain speed, then glide right above the water surface like an ekranoplan? That seems like a more efficient use of the very limited potential/kinetic energy.
better yet.. why not use the vertical drop as a gravity catapult? in other words... hook the plane to a rail system in such a fashion that the rail system serves as additional thrust as it rotates off the edge ??
@@rollerkingonce While not specifically banned, I don't think launch assist is allowed. Gravity may be different (and not having _it specifically_ banned means it IS allowed, right :D ) and that would actually be a great idea since at that point you can have as much drop weight as five people (required team size, as per rules) could carry up there.
The fartest you can possible go is a combination of speed and ground effect. Launch speed can be increase with a pulley system, just need all the non pilots to jump down in to the water.
@@AgentWest There's some optimum in this regime. Diving more from the platform allows you to design for a higher glide speed, thus decreasing wing area and increasing aspect ratio. It also allows you to increase your lift and reduce induced drag via ground effect. The downside is you end up spending less time in your optimum parameters. Also, the control problem of a dive glide is much more difficult than a constant glideslope. The real secret is to find the lightest pilot possible. A 40 kg tiny woman needs only half the wing area of a 80 kg man thus half the chord at the same span, and that wing will produce half the lift at twice the L/D thus ~1/4 the induced drag. The Chicken Whisperers use a very light girl. This is *the* single most impactful design parameter.
@@appa609 True about the weight. I just looked up "Chicken Whisperers" and their 2013 flight, that was impressive! What i found particularly interesting is that their glider started on a rolling platform. While it was rolling and the wing was gaining lift, the pilot had plenty of time to adjust her body position (i.e. balance of the craft) for the best glide slope. Very basic way to control a very simple craft. Very effective in the end.
Hey Josh.... I know you joked about it near the beginning of this video... BUT you MUST make a kit of your final Flugtag aircraft. The marketing potential alone is huge ! Hell, who knows, with hope the kit will inspire a generation of future "Flugtag'ers". Looking forward to your Flugtag success!
I love that Josh used a $50 radio to do that, It much more closely matches the message of the hobby does not have to be prohibitively expensive, that is how FT got me into the hobby years ago. Thanks guys
I've seen a few that have innovative launching mechanisms. I think it will also be important to explore these avenues and exploit them as far as you can within the rules. One I remember used gearing to help accelerate the forward momentum on launch, also high launch rigs seem to work well for some. All the best team
i cobbled together the classic FT cub from dollar store foamboard and printed plans myself. it was ugly, but with the right power pack and a 2200 3s battery, it flew for 25+ minutes cruising around half of a soccer field. a great start to a great hobby
Hey Josh: I just had another thought to build on the idea below. At Flite-fest you could build a scafolding to mimic the "Ramp" at Flugtag... then invite kids to chuck their creations off of the start ramp, to see who flys furthest... Just like Flugtag. At the bottom of the ramp have a tent set up to sell kits of your full scale design. If you want to expand your offering, kit up some of the other competitors and your past designs. Just thought I would pass along my lightbulb moment for today. All the best of luck at FlugTag :)
As you are having fun while designing for a purpose, not just having fun this time... I think what you should do is to build a launcher, a sort of catapult. Like a rail with a weight pulling the rope. So you eliminate the random factors on a start, make it consistent, so you can really compare different designs.
Hey Josh! Invert that V tail!! Improved stability with the downforce.... Also it will reduce torque moments if the wind decides to strike from the side during the launch. IMHO, it looks good too!
Unfortunately biplanes don’t exactly double effective lift. Depending on separation, it might only produce 120-140%. The way they will help is you can build the wing structure lighter because it is essentially a bridge truss. Lower weight means lower stall speeds, which will help greatly since your take off speed is essentially zero.
I don't know if it would be allowed or not, but I've always thought of a trebuchet style launcher. The team rides up front of a pedal powered carriage. As they move over the launch platform, their weight falling pushes the plane hopefully faster, possibly lifting it, to a higher speed than it could be pushed.
Are you guys taking in consideration where people will be holding the full-sized one for the real throw on the competition day? I imagine the ergonomics might play a big part both during the run and during the throw.
I don't know what the "Launch Assist" rules are, but if they allow, I would think really hard about using a push pole of some sort to enable your ground crew to impart as much energy (speed) into the craft as possible. Just like the Cub Scout Pinewood Derby cars, its all about the physics and the energy provided by your launch assist crew is probably one of the most important factors to manage/consider. Find a bunch of rugby players to be that crew...
Just a few things to consider. Directional Stability>>This can be achieved with either a rudder in the back, OR having vanes on each wing. Since a vane can be placed on each wingtip, you don't need as much surface area and this saves weight. The tail can also be a full flying horizontal stab which saves weight on hinges and linkage. Also, you need to consider Bernoulli's principle. Lift is created by a differential in high/low pressures that are created with wind velocity differences. I like the biplane idea, but the camber of your wings needs to be increased. You can also cut down on the cord if the wing is more efficient. Aspect Ratio is everything. Now, find a very small girl to fly it. Good luck.
I've always thought that the best way to control pitch on this type of craft (no need for steering) would be to have the pilot sitting on a rowing machine seat that moves forward and back to instantly change the c/g. This could even be used to control an r/c plane; forward/aft, left/right movement of a weight being the only (hidden) control surfaces.
I feel like u would want something that shines at ground affect and has strong tail authority quicky...u want it to drop off the boat and quickly be able level out once picks up some speed and translate it into a glide slope so Def narrow wide almost flat bottom (slight undercamber) with v tail for sure for added dihederal and shorter using the person as the nose weight or if possible person directly on top of cg
Keep maximum allowed span of 22 feet on Both wings. Minimize the Chords to increase aspect ratio (70 cm) & PUSH AS HARD as you possibly can before diving (for the ground crew)! Naca 4512 something airfoil 🙂
I think you need to figure out what a scale barge push would be on your smaller test model. Chucking from the second floor is probably too high and too fast. Or maybe the opposite ;-). but I don't think the model is much of a help unless you also figure out how to model a scaled down launch.
The crew who will be doing the pushing of the aircraft have to start working on their bodies and technique now. The most important thing is airspeed off the runway. But yes a biplane is a good idea.
Look at the Japanese human powered flight yearly comp. They also have a non powered field that fly about 200 meters. The pedal powered version go over40 kilometers! The idea is that you dive down off the end to get speed then use the ground effect off the water to maximize the glide slope.
You mean "JAPAN INTERNATIONAL BIRDMAN RALLY".Probably the best competition in the world.Looking at the video of the competition, we can see that the slow flight design has the opposite effect, and the optimal solution is an aircraft that does not lose speed.
I'm Xionmass Research and Development in Juno / simple Rockets 2. Phone and PC sandbox building game.. I have a lot of prototypes. I fly RC to :). Been watching your vids for over a decade. Love you guys. Gl
I think you need to do one more test: Realistic launch conditions. You need to slide the latest prototype slowly off a platform on the porch and see how it recovers after going over the edge. That what it will be like in the real competition.
Two ideas: 1. What about flaps? This would allow the pilot to trade drag and lift as needed. What if with flaps you could actually get the thing flying before the end of the platform, then retract them for speed while descending, and then extend them again just before splash down to get a few extra feet. 2. Can you build it around a bicycle? You can get moving faster by pedaling then you can by running.
Dont forget, you have counter wieght also!!! if you created a pengelum type seating arrangement which swung forward for initial launch to shift cg nose heavy,,,, then craft goes into dive, builds speed, then the spring loaded cable connected to wing just behind cg, pulls pilot seat back and locks into cruise position with cg at or slightly behind Center of Mass to pull nose up and achieve your flare for landing.
I'm thinking using a couple of levers, demountable, fixed under the wing root which, could be attached to ropes. The two jumpers would jump off the edge and the levers would increase the speed and give you a height advantage.
you need to scale down speed for the model vs the real plane that will be pushed off. Can you use a wheel skid that stops at the end of the launch platform? You need to make the last model a free flight
If drag is more of an issue maybe going for a larger upper wing and then a shorter lower wing would work? It’ll lose some lift but could be helpful in reducing the drag
This Old Man from Washington NC enjoying with my coffee. You guys are so awesome with your dreams ❤️. Been following since almost day one. Looking forward to seeing the results 👍. ✈️🧔💝
I don't see any brace wires on the model. Be sure to add them when scaling up as they're one of the biggest reasons to use a bi-plane wing. i.e. by cross bracing between the wings you can make them work like a single super thick truss instead of long thin cantilever beams.
I was thinking about the launch, are you allowed a guide rail. If you have a single "u" rail, so a single wheel (in the c/g) would allow a smoother launch. As far as the crew, 1 Pilot, 2 on ea. wing, and a single (1) on the tail. The tail person is responsible for pitch and yaw at take off. The 4 on the wings would provide the thrust and make shure the wings don't drag. Or can there be a "Catapult" similar to the Wrights, same rail, but this time everyone except the pilot grab the tow rope and drop off the end at the same time launching the craft. Anyways, just a thought. Great video, thanks again. John S..
One thing I think you overlooked is when changing from a v tail to a conventional tail is the need to reduce the surface area to more closely match that of the previous tail. Compair the elements of a T tail glider for closer design than that of a bush plane...
One more thought is that at very low speeds it is even more crucial that the elevator is operating in clean air. I think you were on the right track with the idea of an very high aspect ratio biplane design. Building it with the tail spar high so it will clear the dock as it falls just need to stretch the design to the limits allowed by width and length rules and get the Thin T tail up into clean air away from your pushers.
So excited, the Principal of my school has approved my Flying Club STEAM group. Hope to access a lot of content from Flite Test. Entry level kits will be very welcome. In Australia, the FT app isn't available? Please release it. Thanks.
I'd make a repeatable launch mechanism for testing, more similar to the full size. Unless you're planning on having a scale giant hand to chuck the full size off as well, lol.
Hi guys, like what you're doing. The test flight should be to scale as well don't you think? Slow and only a few feet off the ground. If you are not worried about directional stability, then go for a third horizontal plane to amplify the pitch because at low speed there will be not much airflow. Good luck with your project
I’m curious about bi-wings. Does the matter of the placement of the top wing relative to the bottom wing? For example, if you place the top wing behind/over/in-front-of the bottom wing, how does it affect its flight?
You don't actually get double the lift from a biplane, because they have considerably more interference drag- and the low pressure zone on top of the lower wing reduces the high pressure zone on the bottom of the top wing. But you placed the wings pretty far apart vertically which helps, and while it might not double your lift, it still increases it. It's a proven very stable design, So much better than any (inherently unstable) tandem design!
Aerodynamically, a longer chord wing is better than a biplane. Your effective aspect ratio is equal but you get more ground effect lift if all the wing area is near the water, and the L/D benefits from doubling the reynolds number. The only advantage of a biplane is structural efficiency, which shouldn't be an issue anyways.
Awesome vid, as always . Should you not though ! simply push the Model off your workbench at scale speed / height , and see how it performs from there ??
Airplanes landing and taking off have slats and flaps. The wings you have fly well with speed. More flaps and slats for slow speed. scallop the rear edges for less drag.
1) launch as high as possible 2) Launch as fast as possible (gravity powered pulley system) 3) Go in to ground effect as soon as possible 4) Use a weight reduced (one month fasting) Peter Sripol as pilot. Current distance record only went for ground effect, they did not launch high or fast.
If you want to be more like the real deal you got to LOB it very easy cuz that's the way it's coming off the platform on the big ones pretty slow the way he's throwing it's equal to a catapult on a aircraft carrier
I think the key element to the flugtog is to make sure that you take off really well there's no other way except to build an apparatus I can actually help you take off and fly very quickly
Do you know whether the rules would allow using an atlatl throwing stick; with the craft on a stand, the crew could use them to accelerate the plane. Just a thought
Using elevators to pitch up after launch seems to not work very well because of the low airspeed over the elevator. Center-of-gravity works at any airspeed. The pilot can lean forward or backward which can have a significant effect on this light aircraft. So, lean forward to pitch down for airspeed then lean back to milk the ground effect.
One thing to note, low aspect doesn’t work as well scaled down, performance would be better full scale, and could probably be more aggressive with the aspect ratio for the actual flugtag
dont know the rules, but seems a tubed parafoil would perform better at slower speeds and provide easy corrections for the pilot to perform. also fall away cart with fall away poles that keep the parafoil high and open until the weight of the pilot starts holds the shape.
Watching flugtag, seems like a mechanism to increase the angle of attack when it drops nose down over the edge, like a spring that is held until the wheel unloaded
I think a lot if people are spot on regarding the launch speed. Compare how fast you were able to push your prior designs to how fast you're throwing this one in testing. This model flies great but it's going to need to need a very very good launch if you want to have a chance at pulling out of the initial nosedive off the ramp.
3D print a giant multi geared rubber band winder on the sled (and a rubber band powered ducted fan on your glider) to give you some forward acceleration after launch...
I think the main reason the larger version didn't do so well is cos of the jagged layer on the wings. Airofoils with 90 degree jagged bits don't work well in the airflow.
Can the cart thing have moving parts other that wheels? You could have the wheels geared to a sort of conveyer belt on top with a clutch. When you get near the edge, you engage the clutch and use mechanical advantage to give it an extra push. I think airspeed going over the edge is crucial. Or perhaps you could devise a light-weight way to integrate it into the aircraft itself. Perhaps a spring-loaded launcher? I don't know the rules, except that they can't have a motor.
given that the flugtag takeoff speed is basically 0, i would do model testing not by tossing the plane, but simply dropping it
Came here to say exactly that. Tossing it makes no sense
@@camofpv also they completely forgot to add the weight of a human to the nose of the craft (or a simulated, to scale weight) so im predicting a phenomenal nosedive at flugtag
But they have weight on the nose?
@@Space_Reptileif i had to guess they’re figuring the weight of the control electronics is roughly equivalent to the pilot
Don’t you love it when a plan comes together
I don't think that many teams think about ground effect. That's where a lot of competitors get the distance. I'd design something to take advantage of that. Also slow flight means large control surfaces so why not just use the whole stabilizer as an elevator?
This comment was stolen from me, someone using my name.
The moment you reach ground-effect you got about 10 to 15 ft of travel left. Power ground effect is a different story.
The lower wing is really low, which should help with GE.
I’m more worried about the stall effect.
Yup!...I just came back to comment that a dive for airspeed should be job one... Followed by leveling off to take full advantage of ground effect.
There was one Flugtag team that set up a gravity powered catapult to launch their plane using a few of the team members to run forward and jump off of the platform providing the weight to power the catapult
Here’s a thought for the future, making a little push platform for the scaled down models so you can get a more accurate representation of what will happen at flugtug
make sure you do some scale speed launches! doesn't matter how well it glides with a good toss if it can start off from very slow.
The launch from the barge and the first 1 second of flight are most critical in this event. You will need to apply your engineering skills to the full scale launch phase. After launch, make sure your spars can handle the load. Good luck! I'm rooting for you!
I would be working on the launching more than anything if you could add a line to the launch cart to the aircraft so as to turn it into a kite and gain altitude and speed then quick release
One design years ago incorporated a rail launching device geared to the sled wheels in order to increase forward acceleration before the Edge... Think slingshot effect!😅
The team that used the two guys jumping off the platform to pull ropes and really accelerate the flyer was genius
If they used a tall tower to launch from, they not only woul get extra height to start but it could be a catapult using the ropes attached at top as a fulcrum, so when they jump off it throws the plane off the end like a trebuchet
What about bungies instead of ropes?
@@dskofich yeah, climbing shock lines could be used for a smooth transfer of energy
Or offroad recovery rope. Definitely was thinking of some sort of energy recovery setup where the cart falling away has some sort of delayed arm that transfers some of that to the glider.
@@accordv6er recovery rope would probably be to strong, a rock climbing shock rope would work better I think
What if instead of trying to fly right away, you use the height to gain speed, then glide right above the water surface like an ekranoplan? That seems like a more efficient use of the very limited potential/kinetic energy.
better yet.. why not use the vertical drop as a gravity catapult? in other words... hook the plane to a rail system in such a fashion that the rail system serves as additional thrust as it rotates off the edge ??
@@rollerkingonce While not specifically banned, I don't think launch assist is allowed. Gravity may be different (and not having _it specifically_ banned means it IS allowed, right :D ) and that would actually be a great idea since at that point you can have as much drop weight as five people (required team size, as per rules) could carry up there.
The fartest you can possible go is a combination of speed and ground effect. Launch speed can be increase with a pulley system, just need all the non pilots to jump down in to the water.
@@AgentWest There's some optimum in this regime. Diving more from the platform allows you to design for a higher glide speed, thus decreasing wing area and increasing aspect ratio. It also allows you to increase your lift and reduce induced drag via ground effect. The downside is you end up spending less time in your optimum parameters. Also, the control problem of a dive glide is much more difficult than a constant glideslope.
The real secret is to find the lightest pilot possible. A 40 kg tiny woman needs only half the wing area of a 80 kg man thus half the chord at the same span, and that wing will produce half the lift at twice the L/D thus ~1/4 the induced drag. The Chicken Whisperers use a very light girl. This is *the* single most impactful design parameter.
@@appa609 True about the weight. I just looked up "Chicken Whisperers" and their 2013 flight, that was impressive! What i found particularly interesting is that their glider started on a rolling platform. While it was rolling and the wing was gaining lift, the pilot had plenty of time to adjust her body position (i.e. balance of the craft) for the best glide slope. Very basic way to control a very simple craft. Very effective in the end.
Hey Josh.... I know you joked about it near the beginning of this video... BUT you MUST make a kit of your final Flugtag aircraft. The marketing potential alone is huge ! Hell, who knows, with hope the kit will inspire a generation of future "Flugtag'ers". Looking forward to your Flugtag success!
I love that Josh used a $50 radio to do that, It much more closely matches the message of the hobby does not have to be prohibitively expensive, that is how FT got me into the hobby years ago. Thanks guys
I've seen a few that have innovative launching mechanisms. I think it will also be important to explore these avenues and exploit them as far as you can within the rules. One I remember used gearing to help accelerate the forward momentum on launch, also high launch rigs seem to work well for some. All the best team
Definitely need to do testing at scale speeds. You're currently launching them at many times greater speed than what you'll experience at full scale.
i cobbled together the classic FT cub from dollar store foamboard and printed plans myself. it was ugly, but with the right power pack and a 2200 3s battery, it flew for 25+ minutes cruising around half of a soccer field. a great start to a great hobby
Hey Josh: I just had another thought to build on the idea below. At Flite-fest you could build a scafolding to mimic the "Ramp" at Flugtag... then invite kids to chuck their creations off of the start ramp, to see who flys furthest... Just like Flugtag. At the bottom of the ramp have a tent set up to sell kits of your full scale design. If you want to expand your offering, kit up some of the other competitors and your past designs. Just thought I would pass along my lightbulb moment for today. All the best of luck at FlugTag :)
You're going to need lots of wing area to fly at running speed. 300 sq. ft. or more. Nice concept btw, similar to the Dingo ultralight from Ukraine.
As you are having fun while designing for a purpose, not just having fun this time...
I think what you should do is to build a launcher, a sort of catapult. Like a rail with a weight pulling the rope.
So you eliminate the random factors on a start, make it consistent, so you can really compare different designs.
Hey Josh! Invert that V tail!! Improved stability with the downforce.... Also it will reduce torque moments if the wind decides to strike from the side during the launch. IMHO, it looks good too!
Unfortunately biplanes don’t exactly double effective lift. Depending on separation, it might only produce 120-140%.
The way they will help is you can build the wing structure lighter because it is essentially a bridge truss. Lower weight means lower stall speeds, which will help greatly since your take off speed is essentially zero.
6:05 The chirping bird made the sparrows outside my windows go nuts.
I don't know if it would be allowed or not, but I've always thought of a trebuchet style launcher. The team rides up front of a pedal powered carriage. As they move over the launch platform, their weight falling pushes the plane hopefully faster, possibly lifting it, to a higher speed than it could be pushed.
A longer aspect ratio will mostly reduce induced drag, but it gives it a much higher frontal area which greatly increases parasitic drag.
The wing span is the same, parasitic will be the same
You mean form drag. Parasitic drag is from non flying parts (not wings). Like undercarriage or aerials.
At the speed theyre doing induced drag is much higher than parasite drag
Are you guys taking in consideration where people will be holding the full-sized one for the real throw on the competition day? I imagine the ergonomics might play a big part both during the run and during the throw.
I don't know what the "Launch Assist" rules are, but if they allow, I would think really hard about using a push pole of some sort to enable your ground crew to impart as much energy (speed) into the craft as possible. Just like the Cub Scout Pinewood Derby cars, its all about the physics and the energy provided by your launch assist crew is probably one of the most important factors to manage/consider. Find a bunch of rugby players to be that crew...
Just a few things to consider. Directional Stability>>This can be achieved with either a rudder in the back, OR having vanes on each wing. Since a vane can be placed on each wingtip, you don't need as much surface area and this saves weight. The tail can also be a full flying horizontal stab which saves weight on hinges and linkage. Also, you need to consider Bernoulli's principle. Lift is created by a differential in high/low pressures that are created with wind velocity differences. I like the biplane idea, but the camber of your wings needs to be increased. You can also cut down on the cord if the wing is more efficient. Aspect Ratio is everything. Now, find a very small girl to fly it. Good luck.
Rolling platform for extra height and slingshot powered by the four pushers jumping off the edge 🙌
Good luck with Flugtag! We believe in you. You got this!
Washout in the wingtips helps with keeping it moving forward and adds stability.
I've always thought that the best way to control pitch on this type of craft (no need for steering) would be to have the pilot sitting on a rowing machine seat that moves forward and back to instantly change the c/g. This could even be used to control an r/c plane; forward/aft, left/right movement of a weight being the only (hidden) control surfaces.
I feel like u would want something that shines at ground affect and has strong tail authority quicky...u want it to drop off the boat and quickly be able level out once picks up some speed and translate it into a glide slope so Def narrow wide almost flat bottom (slight undercamber) with v tail for sure for added dihederal and shorter using the person as the nose weight or if possible person directly on top of cg
for the model glider reinforce the fuslage to take high start or winch (high speed for model gliders) to get it up
Great and educational designing. Will plans be available for this glider?
Keep maximum allowed span of 22 feet on Both wings. Minimize the Chords to increase aspect ratio (70 cm) & PUSH AS HARD as you possibly can before diving (for the ground crew)! Naca 4512 something airfoil 🙂
I think you need to figure out what a scale barge push would be on your smaller test model. Chucking from the second floor is probably too high and too fast. Or maybe the opposite ;-). but I don't think the model is much of a help unless you also figure out how to model a scaled down launch.
Are there any Rules regarding the trolley. A pendulum type release should give a couple mph.
Josh I like that design, it looks like a sky rake and what a neat glider. Awesome !
Your office is incredible. Never a dull backdrop
I want this as a throw and powered Glider kit. Awesome design - love it.
The crew who will be doing the pushing of the aircraft have to start working on their bodies and technique now. The most important thing is airspeed off the runway. But yes a biplane is a good idea.
Look at the Japanese human powered flight yearly comp. They also have a non powered field that fly about 200 meters. The pedal powered version go over40 kilometers!
The idea is that you dive down off the end to get speed then use the ground effect off the water to maximize the glide slope.
You mean "JAPAN INTERNATIONAL BIRDMAN RALLY".Probably the best competition in the world.Looking at the video of the competition, we can see that the slow flight design has the opposite effect, and the optimal solution is an aircraft that does not lose speed.
@@pulaperapora7130 yes it is the greatest test of man powered or glider flight I’ve seen.
I'm Xionmass Research and Development in Juno / simple Rockets 2. Phone and PC sandbox building game.. I have a lot of prototypes. I fly RC to :). Been watching your vids for over a decade. Love you guys. Gl
I think you need to do one more test: Realistic launch conditions. You need to slide the latest prototype slowly off a platform on the porch and see how it recovers after going over the edge. That what it will be like in the real competition.
Two ideas: 1. What about flaps? This would allow the pilot to trade drag and lift as needed. What if with flaps you could actually get the thing flying before the end of the platform, then retract them for speed while descending, and then extend them again just before splash down to get a few extra feet. 2. Can you build it around a bicycle? You can get moving faster by pedaling then you can by running.
For a few-second flight, too many things to fiddle with only complicates things.
Dont forget, you have counter wieght also!!! if you created a pengelum type seating arrangement which swung forward for initial launch to shift cg nose heavy,,,, then craft goes into dive, builds speed, then the spring loaded cable connected to wing just behind cg, pulls pilot seat back and locks into cruise position with cg at or slightly behind Center of Mass to pull nose up and achieve your flare for landing.
An _inverted_ V tail will give you proverse roll with yaw. That's why the USAF Raptor drone uses an inverted V tail.
If they made that as a kit for motor flying, I would buy it!
Ad a tall tower,ball bearing on the wheels and a fast push. Fingers crossed. Good luck. + ad the exactly cg on the full side.
I'm thinking using a couple of levers, demountable, fixed under the wing root which, could be attached to ropes. The two jumpers would jump off the edge and the levers would increase the speed and give you a height advantage.
you need to scale down speed for the model vs the real plane that will be pushed off. Can you use a wheel skid that stops at the end of the launch platform? You need to make the last model a free flight
If drag is more of an issue maybe going for a larger upper wing and then a shorter lower wing would work? It’ll lose some lift but could be helpful in reducing the drag
This Old Man from Washington NC enjoying with my coffee. You guys are so awesome with your dreams ❤️. Been following since almost day one. Looking forward to seeing the results 👍. ✈️🧔💝
I don't see any brace wires on the model. Be sure to add them when scaling up as they're one of the biggest reasons to use a bi-plane wing. i.e. by cross bracing between the wings you can make them work like a single super thick truss instead of long thin cantilever beams.
I was thinking about the launch, are you allowed a guide rail. If you have a single "u" rail, so a single wheel (in the c/g) would allow a smoother launch. As far as the crew, 1 Pilot, 2 on ea. wing, and a single (1) on the tail. The tail person is responsible for pitch and yaw at take off. The 4 on the wings would provide the thrust and make shure the wings don't drag. Or can there be a "Catapult" similar to the Wrights, same rail, but this time everyone except the pilot grab the tow rope and drop off the end at the same time launching the craft. Anyways, just a thought. Great video, thanks again. John S..
One thing I think you overlooked is when changing from a v tail to a conventional tail is the need to reduce the surface area to more closely match that of the previous tail. Compair the elements of a T tail glider for closer design than that of a bush plane...
One more thought is that at very low speeds it is even more crucial that the elevator is operating in clean air. I think you were on the right track with the idea of an very high aspect ratio biplane design. Building it with the tail spar high so it will clear the dock as it falls just need to stretch the design to the limits allowed by width and length rules and get the Thin T tail up into clean air away from your pushers.
I think you guys NEED to develop this into an FPV kit with a high mount pusher motor!
Needs to be "on the wing" before it even leaves the platform. The dive-and-recover just doesn't work. Good luck guys!
So excited, the Principal of my school has approved my Flying Club STEAM group. Hope to access a lot of content from Flite Test. Entry level kits will be very welcome.
In Australia, the FT app isn't available? Please release it. Thanks.
I'd make a repeatable launch mechanism for testing, more similar to the full size. Unless you're planning on having a scale giant hand to chuck the full size off as well, lol.
Hi guys, like what you're doing. The test flight should be to scale as well don't you think? Slow and only a few feet off the ground. If you are not worried about directional stability, then go for a third horizontal plane to amplify the pitch because at low speed there will be not much airflow. Good luck with your project
Make your launch vehicle really tall so that when it runs over the edge it tosses the plane forward when it rocks forward.
Make sure you design a tall launch platform to gain much needed height. That will help.
I rather think Red Bull determine that!
I love that your using s flysky combo my first transmitter
You'll get that record!!!!
I’m curious about bi-wings. Does the matter of the placement of the top wing relative to the bottom wing? For example, if you place the top wing behind/over/in-front-of the bottom wing, how does it affect its flight?
If this team can make a winning Flugtag design, it proves that working with models can help make successful full size planes.
You don't actually get double the lift from a biplane, because they have considerably more interference drag- and the low pressure zone on top of the lower wing reduces the high pressure zone on the bottom of the top wing. But you placed the wings pretty far apart vertically which helps, and while it might not double your lift, it still increases it. It's a proven very stable design, So much better than any (inherently unstable) tandem design!
About dual wing ultralight airplanes, have you heard about the Petrel 3 ? It's a French made dual wing ultralight floatplane
Make a fpv board with 4 engines to make a dyi drone from home ! You could add a fpv camera quick hookups🎉
Should you be trying to mimic the scale launch speed of a flutag aircraft too? That throwing speed seems a bit optimistically fast.
Aerodynamically, a longer chord wing is better than a biplane. Your effective aspect ratio is equal but you get more ground effect lift if all the wing area is near the water, and the L/D benefits from doubling the reynolds number. The only advantage of a biplane is structural efficiency, which shouldn't be an issue anyways.
Taking a page out of the Buzz light year book and "Fall with style" !
Awesome vid, as always . Should you not though ! simply push the Model off your workbench at scale speed / height , and see how it performs from there ??
Set up a scale platform and do your adjustments from there even scale speed launches
Dastardly and Muttley in Their Flying Machines. let's go!!
Airplanes landing and taking off have slats and flaps. The wings you have fly well with speed. More flaps and slats for slow speed. scallop the rear edges for less drag.
Great video. Love from Vietnam !
That Dingo looks like an upgraded copy of the Hovey Whing-Ding II homebuilt from the 70's.
Are there any rules about the crew jumping first with bungee cords that “pull” the plane like a catapult launch? Or a raised platform to come off of?
1) launch as high as possible
2) Launch as fast as possible (gravity powered pulley system)
3) Go in to ground effect as soon as possible
4) Use a weight reduced (one month fasting) Peter Sripol as pilot.
Current distance record only went for ground effect, they did not launch high or fast.
Love the look of this and love slow fliers. Please plans or ummm kit lol. Keep it coming guys.
If you want to be more like the real deal you got to LOB it very easy cuz that's the way it's coming off the platform on the big ones pretty slow the way he's throwing it's equal to a catapult on a aircraft carrier
Maybe a fan and a couple refrigerator boxes and you can build a wind tunnel for more consistent testing....
I think the key element to the flugtog is to make sure that you take off really well there's no other way except to build an apparatus I can actually help you take off and fly very quickly
Twin wing for stability but not E factor. If keeping basics and not electonics, that is a a way to go
Do you know whether the rules would allow using an atlatl throwing stick; with the craft on a stand, the crew could use them to accelerate the plane. Just a thought
I think that your inspirations were inspired by the Curtis "D" pusher. We have much more HP/Torque available today.
You can make a small ramp and use a falling dead weight to pull the aircraft and tune acceleration and take off speed
Using elevators to pitch up after launch seems to not work very well because of the low airspeed over the elevator. Center-of-gravity works at any airspeed. The pilot can lean forward or backward which can have a significant effect on this light aircraft. So, lean forward to pitch down for airspeed then lean back to milk the ground effect.
I think you guys should borrow the catapult idea with jumping off the deck holding a rope or even a bungee
One thing to note, low aspect doesn’t work as well scaled down, performance would be better full scale, and could probably be more aggressive with the aspect ratio for the actual flugtag
dont know the rules, but seems a tubed parafoil would perform better at slower speeds and provide easy corrections for the pilot to perform. also fall away cart with fall away poles that keep the parafoil high and open until the weight of the pilot starts holds the shape.
Distribution in the EU would be awesome :)
Watching flugtag, seems like a mechanism to increase the angle of attack when it drops nose down over the edge, like a spring that is held until the wheel unloaded
I think a lot if people are spot on regarding the launch speed. Compare how fast you were able to push your prior designs to how fast you're throwing this one in testing. This model flies great but it's going to need to need a very very good launch if you want to have a chance at pulling out of the initial nosedive off the ramp.
3D print a giant multi geared rubber band winder on the sled (and a rubber band powered ducted fan on your glider) to give you some forward acceleration after launch...
I think the main reason the larger version didn't do so well is cos of the jagged layer on the wings. Airofoils with 90 degree jagged bits don't work well in the airflow.
How about having part of the crew tow the glider and jump over the edge whilst still towing so that the energy of their weight is added to the launch?
Nice builds, can build f-117 fighter some day full version please
Would inverting the V-tail be of worth i.e. the Lazair (if it would clear the deck?)
Wow amazing iron giant!
Do not worry about drag. At high speeds it's all about drag, but at competition speeds, drag is simply not an issue.
Can the cart thing have moving parts other that wheels? You could have the wheels geared to a sort of conveyer belt on top with a clutch. When you get near the edge, you engage the clutch and use mechanical advantage to give it an extra push. I think airspeed going over the edge is crucial. Or perhaps you could devise a light-weight way to integrate it into the aircraft itself. Perhaps a spring-loaded launcher? I don't know the rules, except that they can't have a motor.