WES is very comfortable and fun to ride! It's very underrated and could be better, if they extended it into Portland and adjusted the schedule to run more often. They could add more tracks so the trains could pass each other.
I agree, but extending to Portland is pretty much impossible. They shoudl run every 15~20 minutes during rush hour, and every 30 minutes mid-day, but I doubt that would happen. The ride is comfortable and quick and beats traffic on 217 and I-5.
@@subwaymark I was also thinking about how they could make a second WES line into Hillsboro but that’s basically useless. Hillsboro is just another suburb and a WES line there wouldn’t get much ridership.
@@OtterMan310 I believe continuing south on the P&W/former OERy line to Salem was part of the original proposal, which would make the current service much more useful. Potential stops could be at Donald, West Woodburn, Brooklake Rd NE and Keizer TC, before arriving at Salem.
If they got Sadler gtw’s and ran trains every 30 minuites during rush hour and maybe every hour or bi hourly off peak and at least Saturday service this would be a fairly solid service
The Stdlers would be better cars. WES did run every 30 minutes prior to COVID, but only for limited time during Rush Hour. I'm not sure about it the sidings would allow, but every 20 minutes during Rush and hourly off-peak would be a better service. I don't think the P&W RR would appreciate off-peak service.
When I first saw the WES trains, I figured that they were bought second hand from some European transit agency that had been operating them since either the 60's or 70's. I wonder if the reason they don't operate every 10, 15, or 20 minutes is because of G&W, or is it just the cost of labor, or equipment. It's almost as if Tri-Met doesn't really want to run a regional rail system, nothing more than light-rail.
They would need more crews and equipment to operate more frequently. The current 45 minute service required 2 trains. 30 minute service requires 3 trains. 15 min service probably needs 4. They have 3 CRC power cars, and the RDCs. But 15 min service would impact freight movements. 30 minute service I see they are able to get a freight thru between passenger trains, but 15 minutes would not give enough of a window.
@@subwaymark In Nov 2020 Portland voters wisely rejected the proposed SW Corridor MAX extension to Tigard & Tualatin. The proposal met NONE of the basic metrics that determine merit and support or opposition. The list of metrics starts with Public Safety, Public Health, Urban & Environmental impact, then gains in transit patronage and development potential (both exaggerated) and lastly various costs after more important metrics are met. The ideal MAX route to Tigard/Tualatin is from Beaverton along the WES corridor, certainly more ideal than the haphazard route on State Hwy 99W Barbur Blvd widened from 5- to 8-lanes and bulldoze everything in its way. It was a land grab for inappropriate high density development facing 45+mph worsened traffic hazards.
WES started with many problems. It was starting to hit its stride, but the pandemic hit impacting ridership, and now 45 min service. It needs to be at least 30 min headways for ridership to improve.
Hm, what if WES got the #REMmtl treatment with migrating to dedicated tracks and high-floor driverless #metro rolling stocks in the long term at least? Would it make WES significantly better? IMO it needs overhead 25kV 60Hz AC electric power in the medium term at least. Definitely frequency and service need to be improved for all-day regional travel.
While a great idea to use the REM concept, the WES line is a low density suburb to suburb line, granted it does parallel congested freeways. I'd like to see it use the Stadler DMUs like the SMART train the the north bay of San Francisco. It also needs all day service, and more frequenst during peak periods. They should also get a waiver for the need to 2-man crew, just have roving fare inspectors. I would like a MAX line from Portland to Tigard, it might offer more opportunities for WES.
There are other factors as to why WES is a failure: When TriMet/Metro/Washington County saw the Colorado Railcar DMU demonstrator, their thought was "we need this train". Absolutely wrong way to plan transit. The correct way is "We have a population that needs to get from point A to B, what is the best way to do it?" So, a bunch of politicians fell in love with the train and spent over $160 million, without really understanding why people travel. Worse - this resulted in TriMet cutting a lot of bus service (that people actually did use, and now encouraging them to drive.) TriMet/Metro/Washington County failed to understand that WES doesn't operate in a vacuum; nor does the TriMet rail system. For it to succeed, REQUIRES the bus network. Full stop. That's why since 2005 to 2019 TriMet has spent billions on expanding rail, but ridership never increased (and now, it's in free-fall). Because bus riders were neglected and told to buy cars. Why take TriMet if I have a car? Adding to that insult is that TriMet failed to coordinate bus service with WES. It was all about MAX. Except not everyone rides MAX. Not everyone is going along the MAX corridor. The 12 and 57 are extremely high ridership bus lines, and TriMet ignored integration with them. TriMet also failed to consider that people want to go to Washington Square, not the backside of a warehouse. The Wilsonville stop is also inconvenient for so many riders as there are virtually no destinations (at least the City of Wilsonville made an attempt to provide bus service.) Tualatin's stop is also inconvenient and not useful. The insistence on rail above everything has been a failure for Portland, and the ridership numbers (which are audited) don't lie. WES might be a railfan's dream, but it is a failure of transit to serve the people for whom it is charged with serving, and the result is more highway widening. Which is why I say, rail IS car infrastructure. MAX would be a failure without the thousands of "free" car parking spaces, and the numerous widened roads (Cornelius Pass Road, Cornell Road, Brookwood Parkway, 158th Avenue, Murray Boulevard, Barnes Road) that had to be widened AFTER MAX was built. Tomorrow, TriMet is embarking on another mass destruction of bus service under the guise of "low ridership routes" yet WES, which is operating at 5% of its projected ridership numbers, is still being fully funded to the tune of tens of millions of dollars a year - a cost far higher than the lowest ridership bus line. And, bus riders are forced to pay more for less because WES riders refuse to pay their fair share for the trips they demand, complete with red carpet, gold plated seats and fine dining aboard. (Hyperbole, sure, but the cost is real.)
The transit connections at BTC and Tigard are pretty decent. Wilsonville SMART and Cherriots buses seem to coordinate their schedules around WES. When I rode WES pre-pandemic, Tualatin had heavy boardings in the morning and alightings in the evening, most seeming like kiss-n-ride. Hall/Nimbus is not a good stop at all. They are nearing ridership goals in 2014 before the backward slide and the pandemic hit, and not remote work kills a line like WES. Across the nation, commuter rail is struggling to recover. And with WES as suburb-to-suburb, it is even worse. WES requirement for two-man crews drives up a lot of costs. The WES infrastructure is much less than the light rail. As far as Light Rail, many MAX light rail stations have reduced parking and are creating TODs, which is much better for a high-capacity rail line than parking lots. Don't get me wrong, the bus is the backbone of any city with a rail system. You can't have a rail-only system. The key for transit ridership is dependable, fast, and frequent service. I used to be a bus rider in NYC, not by choice, but by necessity. It was not reliable. I'd wait for a bus that was supposed to run every 8 minutes, there would be a 30-minute gap, and then suddenly 3~4 buses would jockey for the lead position. In suburban Rockland County, NY, buses ran every 30~60 minutes, and there were constant missed trips or severe delays that were(are) frustrating. My sister has learned to not trust the buses where she lives in NY. Here they have completely bypassed her stop in Suffern more than once, as the bus went down the highway instead of taking the diversion into town even though the driver sold her a ticket to Suffern and the bus was scheduled to stop there. They dropped her off at a NJ Park-n-ride and said she needed to wait for the return bus to go back. Note: She can't drive. This is what gives buses a bad name. Rail has a perception of being more reliable, whether it is real or not. With WES, it never developed that perception. When first proposed, I thought WES was not a great idea as it did not have the right traffic generators, but it did give an alternative to I5/OR217. Unless something is changed with WES, it will flounder, and I don't think they can abandon it because Federal Funds were tied to it. I admit I am a railfan, but I am generally pro-transit. I have bad experiences with buses, but buses are transit's # 1 choice, and rail should become the backbone if ridership warrants it.
They actually modified MAX light rail schedules to arrive later to make transfers to WES commuter rail better. I also like how you didn't make this a hate video like other people would have done.
I don't hate WES, It just had so many stumbles over time. If they would restore 30 min or better service it would be so much better. Ideally some mid-day service too, but I don't see that happening.
i honestly dont think wes will last its never really been as convenient as it could be i mean even if they ran 30 min during peak hours and every 45 min -1 hour the rest of the day and maybe every hour on weekends they would get the ridership they need but as it stands wes will probably fail and i wont miss it
I happen to like WES, but it never served the goals and was not as convenient asn easy to use as it shoudl of been, plus the costs of running a 2-man crew service with light loadings was doomed to fail.
WES is very comfortable and fun to ride! It's very underrated and could be better, if they extended it into Portland and adjusted the schedule to run more often. They could add more tracks so the trains could pass each other.
I agree, but extending to Portland is pretty much impossible. They shoudl run every 15~20 minutes during rush hour, and every 30 minutes mid-day, but I doubt that would happen. The ride is comfortable and quick and beats traffic on 217 and I-5.
@@subwaymark I was also thinking about how they could make a second WES line into Hillsboro but that’s basically useless. Hillsboro is just another suburb and a WES line there wouldn’t get much ridership.
@@OtterMan310 I believe continuing south on the P&W/former OERy line to Salem was part of the original proposal, which would make the current service much more useful. Potential stops could be at Donald, West Woodburn, Brooklake Rd NE and Keizer TC, before arriving at Salem.
If they got Sadler gtw’s and ran trains every 30 minuites during rush hour and maybe every hour or bi hourly off peak and at least Saturday service this would be a fairly solid service
The Stdlers would be better cars. WES did run every 30 minutes prior to COVID, but only for limited time during Rush Hour. I'm not sure about it the sidings would allow, but every 20 minutes during Rush and hourly off-peak would be a better service. I don't think the P&W RR would appreciate off-peak service.
I really liked the video!
Thank You. I hope to make more in 2024
When I first saw the WES trains, I figured that they were bought second hand from some European transit agency that had been operating them since either the 60's or 70's. I wonder if the reason they don't operate every 10, 15, or 20 minutes is because of G&W, or is it just the cost of labor, or equipment. It's almost as if Tri-Met doesn't really want to run a regional rail system, nothing more than light-rail.
They would need more crews and equipment to operate more frequently. The current 45 minute service required 2 trains. 30 minute service requires 3 trains. 15 min service probably needs 4. They have 3 CRC power cars, and the RDCs. But 15 min service would impact freight movements. 30 minute service I see they are able to get a freight thru between passenger trains, but 15 minutes would not give enough of a window.
@@subwaymark In Nov 2020 Portland voters wisely rejected the proposed SW Corridor MAX extension to Tigard & Tualatin. The proposal met NONE of the basic metrics that determine merit and support or opposition. The list of metrics starts with Public Safety, Public Health, Urban & Environmental impact, then gains in transit patronage and development potential (both exaggerated) and lastly various costs after more important metrics are met. The ideal MAX route to Tigard/Tualatin is from Beaverton along the WES corridor, certainly more ideal than the haphazard route on State Hwy 99W Barbur Blvd widened from 5- to 8-lanes and bulldoze everything in its way. It was a land grab for inappropriate high density development facing 45+mph worsened traffic hazards.
Only the current 45 minute service frequency. I hope they restore their original 30 minute frequency soon.
WES started with many problems. It was starting to hit its stride, but the pandemic hit impacting ridership, and now 45 min service. It needs to be at least 30 min headways for ridership to improve.
Hm, what if WES got the #REMmtl treatment with migrating to dedicated tracks and high-floor driverless #metro rolling stocks in the long term at least? Would it make WES significantly better? IMO it needs overhead 25kV 60Hz AC electric power in the medium term at least. Definitely frequency and service need to be improved for all-day regional travel.
While a great idea to use the REM concept, the WES line is a low density suburb to suburb line, granted it does parallel congested freeways. I'd like to see it use the Stadler DMUs like the SMART train the the north bay of San Francisco. It also needs all day service, and more frequenst during peak periods. They should also get a waiver for the need to 2-man crew, just have roving fare inspectors. I would like a MAX line from Portland to Tigard, it might offer more opportunities for WES.
Fantastic thanks
You're welcome!
Trimet Wes commuter rail should go to Salem, Oregon maybe to Hillsboro, Oregon to ?
As much as I would like as I live in Salem, but work in Hillsboro, I don't that will happen in my lifetime.
honestly Hillsboro can just transfer from MAX
@@gyrozeppeli4862 I don’t think that is going to happen
There are other factors as to why WES is a failure:
When TriMet/Metro/Washington County saw the Colorado Railcar DMU demonstrator, their thought was "we need this train". Absolutely wrong way to plan transit. The correct way is "We have a population that needs to get from point A to B, what is the best way to do it?" So, a bunch of politicians fell in love with the train and spent over $160 million, without really understanding why people travel. Worse - this resulted in TriMet cutting a lot of bus service (that people actually did use, and now encouraging them to drive.)
TriMet/Metro/Washington County failed to understand that WES doesn't operate in a vacuum; nor does the TriMet rail system. For it to succeed, REQUIRES the bus network. Full stop. That's why since 2005 to 2019 TriMet has spent billions on expanding rail, but ridership never increased (and now, it's in free-fall). Because bus riders were neglected and told to buy cars. Why take TriMet if I have a car?
Adding to that insult is that TriMet failed to coordinate bus service with WES. It was all about MAX. Except not everyone rides MAX. Not everyone is going along the MAX corridor. The 12 and 57 are extremely high ridership bus lines, and TriMet ignored integration with them.
TriMet also failed to consider that people want to go to Washington Square, not the backside of a warehouse. The Wilsonville stop is also inconvenient for so many riders as there are virtually no destinations (at least the City of Wilsonville made an attempt to provide bus service.) Tualatin's stop is also inconvenient and not useful.
The insistence on rail above everything has been a failure for Portland, and the ridership numbers (which are audited) don't lie. WES might be a railfan's dream, but it is a failure of transit to serve the people for whom it is charged with serving, and the result is more highway widening. Which is why I say, rail IS car infrastructure. MAX would be a failure without the thousands of "free" car parking spaces, and the numerous widened roads (Cornelius Pass Road, Cornell Road, Brookwood Parkway, 158th Avenue, Murray Boulevard, Barnes Road) that had to be widened AFTER MAX was built. Tomorrow, TriMet is embarking on another mass destruction of bus service under the guise of "low ridership routes" yet WES, which is operating at 5% of its projected ridership numbers, is still being fully funded to the tune of tens of millions of dollars a year - a cost far higher than the lowest ridership bus line. And, bus riders are forced to pay more for less because WES riders refuse to pay their fair share for the trips they demand, complete with red carpet, gold plated seats and fine dining aboard. (Hyperbole, sure, but the cost is real.)
The transit connections at BTC and Tigard are pretty decent. Wilsonville SMART and Cherriots buses seem to coordinate their schedules around WES. When I rode WES pre-pandemic, Tualatin had heavy boardings in the morning and alightings in the evening, most seeming like kiss-n-ride. Hall/Nimbus is not a good stop at all. They are nearing ridership goals in 2014 before the backward slide and the pandemic hit, and not remote work kills a line like WES. Across the nation, commuter rail is struggling to recover. And with WES as suburb-to-suburb, it is even worse. WES requirement for two-man crews drives up a lot of costs. The WES infrastructure is much less than the light rail.
As far as Light Rail, many MAX light rail stations have reduced parking and are creating TODs, which is much better for a high-capacity rail line than parking lots. Don't get me wrong, the bus is the backbone of any city with a rail system. You can't have a rail-only system. The key for transit ridership is dependable, fast, and frequent service. I used to be a bus rider in NYC, not by choice, but by necessity. It was not reliable. I'd wait for a bus that was supposed to run every 8 minutes, there would be a 30-minute gap, and then suddenly 3~4 buses would jockey for the lead position. In suburban Rockland County, NY, buses ran every 30~60 minutes, and there were constant missed trips or severe delays that were(are) frustrating. My sister has learned to not trust the buses where she lives in NY. Here they have completely bypassed her stop in Suffern more than once, as the bus went down the highway instead of taking the diversion into town even though the driver sold her a ticket to Suffern and the bus was scheduled to stop there. They dropped her off at a NJ Park-n-ride and said she needed to wait for the return bus to go back. Note: She can't drive. This is what gives buses a bad name. Rail has a perception of being more reliable, whether it is real or not. With WES, it never developed that perception. When first proposed, I thought WES was not a great idea as it did not have the right traffic generators, but it did give an alternative to I5/OR217. Unless something is changed with WES, it will flounder, and I don't think they can abandon it because Federal Funds were tied to it. I admit I am a railfan, but I am generally pro-transit. I have bad experiences with buses, but buses are transit's # 1 choice, and rail should become the backbone if ridership warrants it.
They actually modified MAX light rail schedules to arrive later to make transfers to WES commuter rail better. I also like how you didn't make this a hate video like other people would have done.
I don't hate WES, It just had so many stumbles over time. If they would restore 30 min or better service it would be so much better. Ideally some mid-day service too, but I don't see that happening.
i honestly dont think wes will last its never really been as convenient as it could be i mean even if they ran 30 min during peak hours and every 45 min -1 hour the rest of the day and maybe every hour on weekends they would get the ridership they need but as it stands wes will probably fail and i wont miss it
I happen to like WES, but it never served the goals and was not as convenient asn easy to use as it shoudl of been, plus the costs of running a 2-man crew service with light loadings was doomed to fail.
They need to replace their cars with a more consisten fleet comprising of Stadlers
I woudl agree with that, but I'm not sure how long WES will last in the long term.