Cleric has a much better chassis than a Divine Sorcerer. Calling Warpriest a worse version of Champion is absolutely baffling; Warpriest and Champion have nearly nothing in common except for their aesthetics. Cleric isn't only good at healing; one of the advantages of the divine font is that you can fill your spell slots with everything else. If you're filling all of your other spell slots with healing, you're playing the Cleric class vastly below it's potential.
My thoughts as well...my warpriest of Cayden Cailean would have some words to say if he heard his abilities were a worse version of the champion in our party who tends to forget she can heal with lay on hands. Having 5 heals that do 3d10 for any given cast among some other nifty spells when used creatively can definitely make cleric more fun to play. He was built as a tank/shield for the other party members. The Champion is the strong arm, while the wizard is the heavy damage dealer...and the alchemist just exists. XD
@daiteach3505 Divine Sorcerer with the Cleric Archetype so he/she/the/them have acces to the feats to improve the heal spell is by far the best healer in the game. And is more flexible and has a greater healing pool as the traditional cleric
@@pascalmanders5781Divine sorcerers may be able to get a higher numerical bonus, but they lack all the feat support clerics get. A divine sorcerer has 4 spell slots at max vs 9 of cleric, cleric can use divine font spells to also remove debuffs with feats, and the cleric is far more "flexible" than a sorcerer. They can literally choose any spell in their whole list to prepare each day, vs being locked in to a handful. Heroic Recovery blows anything sorcerer can do out of the water.
@stevensoult3665 no, takes heal as favored spell and all slots may be healing spells or may not, choice of the sorcerer. Take the Cleric Archetype and there goes your numerical advantage
“Champions always have to raise their shield.” Meanwhile, my orc champion with a minigun is laughing manically while he shoots those dumb enough to attack his friends instead of him. God I love Pathfinder
IDK, at lv 10 champions can react with shield blocks and reactive strikes to the same attack twice per turn for their allies. 3 at lv 14. The new shield build for champions in core 2 is busted
I feel like judging the summoner by the ofensive potential of the summoner itself is kinda like trying to swim against the tide, we shouldnt judge them by how close they are to what we want them to be, but rather to what they're suposed to be. And what are they suposed to be? A martial platform with their own self buffing caster attached to them. Summoners excell when the summoner is buffing their eidolon instead of doing their own thing unrelated to their martial like only flicking saving throws cantrips. Thats what summoners can do that no martial nor caster can do.
Can confirm. I played a level 1-20 summoner with a plant eidolon, and my summoner never made an attack action the entire campaign. The fact that you and your eidolon share MAP is supposed to tell you that you aren't the one that's supposed to be attacking. Boost Eidolon is the best action ever, +2 to +8 to damage rolls is absolutely nuts, and it's essentially a free action if you aren't trying to get yourself into melee. Plus, you get to be a full-strength martial combatant through your eidolon, while still being a max charisma socialite for diplomacy and intimidation. Also, if you choose the trip trait for your eidolon's primary attack, you can get Weighty Impact at level 10, which gets the Knockdown action on a PC, which is also nuts, especially since your eidolon can also have a reactive strike when they try to stand back up (which also benefits from Boost Eidolon since that lasts till your next turn). Instead of needing to worry about a trip attempt affecting your MAP and potentially knocking you prone on a critical failure, you can Act Together to cast Boost Eidolon and move your eidolon into position, and then hit like a truck at full attack bonus, and then knock them over with no check or save, and then get another full attack bonus hit if they try to stand up. Now it is rough that you basically have disadvantage on all reflex saves that hit both of you, but there are also some unbelievable advantages to technically being two targets. You don't get increased healing from AoE healing, but you do count as separate targets for battle medicine, so you can get double benefit from that, and you almost have advantage for mind-controlling effects since if your eidolon gets controlled, you can choose to not give them any of your actions, and if you get controlled, your eidolon can disregard your orders since it is an intelligent creature. My favorite personal example is in the final level 20 fight against the BBEG, my character was wounded 3 after almost three full rounds of not having a turn do to being moved in initiative every time he went down to an AoE, but I finally got a turn at ~5% hp. I used 1 action to summon my eidolon, and 2 actions to cast Moment of Renewal. Because MoR is multi-target instead of AoE, I could target myself and my eidolon in addition to the three allies who were also adjacent to me. And because I had also taken Fast Recovery, I got triple the healing from it, which healed me for ~95% of my max hp, putting me to full health which then also cleared the wounded condition because that clears from being at full hp for 10 minutes, and MoR lets you recover from conditions as if you had rested for 24 hours.
@@Yull-ReteI mean, now that the Barbarian apparently no longer takes AC penalties during Rage Boost Eidolon it's kinda like a slightly worse Rage, but COME ON, comparing ANYTHING with Rage is gonna come out as worse. Summoner is my second favorite class in this game (used to be first but then the Kineticist happened, and now the Alchemist is so cool I'm wondering if it won't end up stealing second place too) because it can simply do SO MUCH in such a cool way!
Thanks so much for this. I would argue that the most important take away here is that the gap between tiers is HELLA smaller than in 'certain other games' and is more about versatility and 'opportunities to shine' than raw power. Thank you again for this and I look forward to the reaction vid to your pre-master list.
Wow, not what i expected for the Cleric from you to be honest. The divine spell list is so much better now than it was previously, and cleric feats are also pretty potent. Cast Down and Channel Smite alone make the class shine bright, and then you add their spells to the mix and they're easily upper B to A tier, depending on your subclass choices.
I'm sorry, but playing a strength based gladiator monk, taking the wrestler dedication, and hitting some poor bastard with a crit on a ki strike suplex, all while impersonating Macho Man Randy Savage is undoubtedly S tier
Hate to ruin your day, but you can't use ki strike with suplex, it's only plain Strikes or flurry of blows. also that's a S tier wrestler moment, which you can do as a fighter and yes you will crit more, also works with Barbarian, or even ranger or swashbuckler. it's strange, but i agree with nonat, PF2e monk is cool, but lacks something that defines it that is as relevant as other classes, also it feels bad that it doesn't have a map reduction like fighter and ranger you can build a very good Monk, but it will good because your build and not because the class, meanwhile classes can just do their things well with their base chassis, i've seen a character who is a fighter with only 1 level fighter feat and all the other feats where archetype feats, and it works extremely well, with monk it could work but it would just be very mediocre, unless you are going wrestler or student of perfection.
Ooof. Big disagree on Wizard/Witch/Oracle. Actually looking at the final list, I think basically all spellcasting is underrepresented here. New Oracle has too many spell slots. Combine that with easy access to cleric focus spells and their mystery/curse abilities unshackled from a focus pool and you have the caster most able to spit out meaningful affects a turn at the lowest cost. Wizard has the most spell slots a day and the chassis is literally built for scroll scribing to fill out your versatility. It's a little more intensive than Sorc, but if played well is more effective. New witch is sexy as hell. From a chassis perspective it's kinda like sorc and wizard had a baby, in that a witch can literally act as a fill for any spellcasting deficiency at character creation but still has the spell collecting and crafting ease that the wizard does. It needed the remaster buff to give it more identity, but now that it has it, maybe my favorite caster in the game.
I would argue oracle is still dodo trash. Sorcerer has almost as many spell slots, but are just better casters and can take oracle dedication to get the only strenght that oracle has. As a class oracle currently runs into the issue that it's chasis is pretty poor despite some good things. I would easily put it at the bottom of the classes every time. Champion even with a super strong dedication still is worth taking. Oracle doesn't have a really strong class identity until around lvl10 which I would argue is the definition the worst class, is that the dedication is th3 whole class up until that. Cleric into oracle dedication is a better oracle etc. Also by losing a lot of the buffs their focus spells are often worse as well which is just silly. Wich on the other hand I feel is very very good. The eye build with a intimidation martial. Is just ludicrous amounts of debuffing, along with easy access to slow means it's a permanent loss of action econ for enemies. That's near s tier amount of power in one ability. Even if I think many witches are mid.
@@christianlangdon3766, I need to really give a good looksie over PC2 oracle. I'm just kinda going with my gut here, but with its base proficiencies, spell slots and the divine list being way nicer than when the game released, I think it's probably pretty strong. Most people may play FA, but you can't really judge a class based on FA.
@@AlexKlindt ye I think it's strong just agaisnt what I wanted from an oracle, oracle to me was always someone with cool magic actions that weren't spells but spells formed their backup and enhanced flavor. Now it seems spellcasting is the only thing they got going for them.
“Every magus misses with their slotted spellstrikes.” Meanwhile the boss I built up to cap off this level one dungeon, complete with multiple phases explodes in round two due to a crit rapier spellstrike. Again, god I love pathfinder
Lmao ya I did that during a module with my sparkling targe magus I combo sure strike with my spell strike when I use a slotted spell to insure I at least hit but… ya. I one shot the boss of the encounter from max HP lmao we were only lv 3 at the time though. Magus is a bit better than he gave it credit for IMO. But not by much
The strength of the Monk isn't being fast and Agile. The strength of the Monk is in action economy. The speed bonus, as an example, lets you get from point a to point b using minimum actions (Qi Rush, Shrink the Span, Winding Flow, Wind Jump, etc. all work to a similar goal). The goal of Flurry of Blows isn't to be able to hit twice; it is to get some other action in while getting your normal expected number of "martial attacks".
The divine spell list has come a long way since the beginning, and thinking of clerics as heal bots is pretty harsh. I'm currently playing a harm cleric with the player goal of never preparing the heal spell even once through out the entire campaign, and he's far from useless. In fact, I often don't have enough actions to do everything I want in a given turn, so if you see a cleric standing around because everyone is full health, something has gone horribly wrong.
I know this won't change the ranking, which is fine, but i had a Summoner player in my game that went with Dragon. Arcane list gives some very good saving throw spells, and if she wanted to attack, the Dragon used it's breath weapon. It was pretty effective.
I played as a summoner that had a plant based Eidolon and that thing was cracked. The fact that I was able to have it be large with reach and then still be able to sling spells that target saving throws felt incredible to me. The flavour of the class was also pretty amazing as it really did feel like we were of one mind in combat despite being two beings. The summoner themself might not be all that strong compared to other casters, but the summon felt like a whole other player character on the field.
One of the characters that I'd love to play is a summoner with a psychopomp eidolon. Or maybe a devotion phantom. The concept is fairly solid in my mind but I keep going back and forth on the actual mechanics.
Summoner is great. Guy in my Ruby Phoenix game has a beast eidolon that knocks things down then hits them, then hits them again when they get up, while the Summoner can also cast. It's great.
Surprised to hear the summoner called limited. That was totally the opposite of my experience playing one in Age of Ashes. The thing I was really good at was just being wherever I was needed. Monster rushing up to someone? My eidolon was there to flank. A mook trying to flank us at the same time? My summoner was there to blast them. We needed someone to do a puzzle while fighting the boss? I could do both at the same time; it was great. Then I hit level 10 and got Weighty Impact. I started bullying monsters. I don't know what else to call it.
Any class that has a full extra action they can use on basically whatever they want from level 1 is inevitably gonna be crazy versatile. Summoners play into the strengths of this system in a way no other class could before the Kineticist was released.
10:00 - Cleric has so many heals. Water/Wood Kineticist: "hold my tree for a moment." 14:00 - Fighter... when you crit on a 14. Meanwhile my last Gunslinger: And... that's an 11, I crit. Again. With Fatal trait... that's 3-billion damage. 16:25 - Me as a player who's favorite class is Gunslinger: Wait, this game has an inventor class? GM: Yeah... it's literally the other half of that book you've been hugging this whole game session. ;)
I'm going to disagree with your take on summoner. There are so many saving throw spells in the game. You don't think of it as two attackers. You are a support character and a frontline fighter, not two fighters. So don't knock it for not being something it doesn't remotely need to be. It's not S tier, but an easy B. Tons of self-healing from focus spells. Plus dragons get some nasty, nasty action economy boosts. You really should give it another look. You also get two exploration activities, which shouldn't be discounted. Two chances to notice traps, or auto-scouting and perception, or detect magic and perception
"Warpriest is just worse Champion" - you are comparing a subclass to a full class, which says a lot about Cleric as a whole. Warpriests specifically have skyrocketed in what they can achieve all at once after the remaster, being able to stand side-by-side with the party's martials, and buff as well as any other divine caster, and heal better than any other class - all at the same time.
I just love oracles too much to ever be happy playing a cleric. I think adding deities is a great way to add flavour to a character, but weirdly that doesn't feel as interesting to me when the character is a cleric of that deity.
@@Rashagar wish I could say that my favorite clas wasn't just butchered. Battle oracle is better played as a warpriest with oracle dedication. And there is almost no way to argue agaisnt it.
@@RashagarI used to share this opinion about the Oracle. But then the remastered came and the cool identity of the poor bastard became too diluted for me to be able to recognize.
My son's playing a str-based goblins Inventor in our campaign currently and as the GM it seems like he has a ton of options and flexibility. He's squishy for a frontline (sword and shield) but that forces him to think outside the box and rely on his team. He's our lone Arcana guy, does the crafting of course, and handles a lot of the Athletics stuff in combat. All this to say I'd love to watch that Inventor video you mentioned and hear your thoughts. I want to better be able to run the game for him.
Champion is easily the most effective class in the game for most parties, and it's not even really close. Paizo devs have straight-up said that when they do their testing, which involves an entire party and slotting a class into of the 4 default roles (fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric), the Champion almost always out-performs the fighter when it takes the fighter role. Easiest S tier of all time. Defense is massively good in PF2e, and the only other class that comes close is: Cleric, which is now also absolutely incredible with the changes to spirit damage. Warpriest is one of the most versatile classes on the battlefield, because they can slot into any role needed fairly well, they're always great at buffing, and they still have the best healing by a mile. Another incredibly easy S tier.
Def gotta agree on Rogue. Been playing a Ruffian rogue with the Wrestler free archetype and he's been one of the scariest guys in the party. And helping the others gain damage with Gang Up. Hes been a beast. Plus despite being a Ruffian his skill list is still insane so he's still doing the Roguey stuff on top of it. Been awesome.
Reasons why I would put Monk a bit higher (maybe not a higher tier but higher in the tier at least): 1: No need for weapons or armour, meaning you can be the pack mule of the party if you go Strength. 2: Superb AC and Saving Throws. Starting with Expert in all of those is good at low levels at the very least.
I feel like he's also really underselling the action economy. Getting your two attacks in with one action is great and really frees you up to do other stuff as well. Or do things like run in, attack and move out with a high speed forcing the enemy to use multiple moves (depnding on their movement) to reach you etc.
Monks superior action economy also makes them really good for using aid. With the new default aid DC being 15, monks can pretty much throw free +2's to a single ally each turn by the time they hit level 5.
Honestly Inventor is one of my favorite classes in PF2e. It's so fun especially because it's basically an in system way to play a Kamen Rider with the like Gigaton feats being finishers. Just super fun
Ironically I *LOVE* how meta the Investigator gets because its never too broken early game and it fits that sherlock fantasy. Especially if you use your own deductions to figure out meta knowledge it feels rewarding!
I wholeheartedly agree with u on the magus. Right now I'm running a magus with the investigator subclass so I can devise a stratagem before I spellstrike to ensure it'll hit. I've been careful to try and make sure that the enemies encountered are the subject of my investigation so that the roll is a free action too. Alternatively, filling out scrolls and/or spellslots with true strike can work too.
Try out Investigator with eldritch archer archetype. Easy S-Tier. DaS before using the big spells - if you know you won't crit just switch target with a simple attack. If you also use the alchemy subclass of the investigator you also have plenty of options if you know you would miss with your attack
I disagree with monk. They may not king out on damage but they are just GOOD at everything. Good ac good hit good damage good action economy and the uprgade success on save to crit for path to perfection is nice. They embody the do everything martial
Totally fair on investigator. Its so much fun in theory, and a lot of fun in practice too but it does feel like youre slowing things down much of the time
"Everyone forgets the inventor" "Familiars don't do much in combat" Meanwhile I'm putting together a lvl6 metal and wood kineticist with Inventor archetype to basically set up a ballista with a funny little robot firing it atop of a barricade costing 2 actions instead of 3 after I cast it. It's all about the mental illness
I was with you until Oracle. I think you got that completely wrong: - 4 slot divine spontaneous caster - Charisma based - focus spells - feats (some of them really good) that can be done 2-3 times per combat [and the curses aren't that impactful anymore] - Whispers of Weakness itself is S-tier What does a Divine Sorcerer have, that an Oracle doesn't??
I don't agree with Cleric being so low. Yes, they are great at healing due to the extra spell slots, but these extra spell slots also allow you to explore the Divine spells, and with the remaster, they are eating quite well, adding damage and control. Besides, you can always grab the Harm font and instead of healing your party, you can nuke foes that aren't immune to void damage with d10s that also force the foe prone. You can also go with Warpriest and serve as a bulkier full caster, not as good at martial as a Champion and without the fun protection stuff, but with a lot of spells to compensate for it. I also disagree with Gunslinger. I love gunslingers, they are one of my favorite classes. But their "feast or farmine" nature makes them very unreliable unless you can crit, and while they can be a pretty solid supportive martial with the Ways, but since your attacks cost 2 actions (one to attack proper and one to reload, unless you are one of those Magazine freaks), your consistency goes down even more. But hey, those are my opinions, and that's the fun part of these discussions: knowing what each share, as long as everyone is civilized!
I wonder if he is ever going to make the thaumaturge implement tier list that goes over what tier each level of implement is(initiate, adapt, Paragon). Like what bloodedshingle had said
Yes I remember Inventor, I play an Inventor. He's basically just gnomish Dr. Octopus. He's a weapon innovation inventor, his weapon is an Asp Coil that I've reskinned as my "brass tentacles." It comes with Slashing, Versatile Piercing and Reach. The three weapon innovations I've applied have given it trip, grab, shove, versatile bludgeoning, and free hand.. My GM let me bend the rules and grab Automaton as an Adopted Ancestry, which allows me to integrate the weapon as part of my body and integrate a shield as part of my body, and have the equivalent of a breast plate in armor as part of my body. The shield and armor are also flavored as octopus arms. His strength is through the roof and he's a master in Athletics, so when he grapples, trips or shoves from 10 feet away, it works really well. And that's just the basic arm stuff. He's not doing as much damage as our Barbarian, or our Magus, but he's still kinda the best. He sets himself on fire a lot when he tries to cauterize other people's wounds but that just adds to his charm.
I feel like you really undervalued the action economy available to Monk because of Flurry. It really frees you up for strong skill actions like battle medicine, demoralize and athletics actions
My first character in Pathfinder was a Magus. And part of my heart will always be with them. But wanting to traverse the abomination vaults it’s pretty much a no-go with the amount of magic resistant and straight up immune enemies.
I think, what would make the Oracle effective, was if they still got the benefit/detriment aspect of their curse from before the remaste, but it only triggered off of curse bound abilities, not focus spells.
The merits to the oracle as I see it is they essentially have over double focus spells as well as four slot casting. They have the most gas in the tank of any caster, and are probably the most sustainable between encounters as you can refocus to get some really good oracle focus spells like thunderburst alongside getting your curse feats back. Divine sorcerers with sorceries potency might get more bang for your buck, but Oracle has an entire additional wallet.
Going to disagree you get worse focus spell access than arguably champion who No one ever considers a focus spell caster as a strenght. You get 1 focus spell to start. Another at 2nd level, wait till 6th level to get your third, you need 12th to get the upper domain spells, vs lvl8. Like naw man you arent getting shit in Detroit. And oracles focus spells aren't even strong to start with. War, life, etc old oracle was way better of a focus caster, even having an Uber mode of infinite focus spells which the current one lacks. Anything you get early on is a dedication feat away to get your strongest stuff which you can't even be the best to use. Visions of weakness is bonkers on fighter and a bunch of martials. Etc there is very little to recommend oracle aside from saying it can be a necromancy style cleric or fire cleric becouse otherwise cleric is just better.
Rogues in combat I'd agree with your rating, but with their options outside of combat, I find them to be peerless as the most all-round class. They are great at everything, including combat. So they are top of S tier.
This is my personal tier list. This is based more on my personal favorites rather than objectively good. Also I am not as familiar with all of the new Remaster stuff. S - Gunslinger, Psychic, Champion, Bard A - Fighter, Rogue, Alchemist, Kineticist, Swashbuckler, Thaumaturge B - Barbarian, Sorcerer, Monk, Summoner, Ranger C - Druid, Cleric, Witch, Wizard, Magus F - Investigator, Oracle, Inventor
Dude thanks for doing this! While I might slightly disagree a bit with your choices, I always learn a ton by watching this. Now I realize that this would be VERY difficult to do but I would be interested in say your opinions with these with using the Free Archetype variant rule. So as you said in another awesome video; a Magus or Gunslinger with an Investigator archetype would be a LOT better. So what if you picked each class and said something like "If I had to pick a free archetype(s), what would it be and how much better would this class be to play?"
Minor nitpick: Your scaling is weird, man. S-Tier is supposed to represent going above and beyond. It's for when somebody doesn't just hit a home run, they knock out of the entire park. A-Tier is what something SHOULD be aiming for, S-Tier is for when it exceeds even 'doing it right'. Leaving no room for 'above and beyond' leaves things feeling...weird.
Inventor is fantastic. I’ve been playing one for the past year. With that class I solo’d a forest dragon, and you guessed it EXPLODE is what cinched the win for me. I took the gadget feat, and changing them out for whatever mission we re about to do has been amazing. Unsolicited opinion: I think you have issue with it’s permanence being its impermanence. It’s malleability I see as a strength, not a weakness. While I also agree that to get the most out of the class you need to understand the PF rules in crafting and retraining feats, but if you do take the time to learn them you’ll have a class capable to survive and kick ass when needed.
My main issue is the subclass features it has are borderline snore fests with many feats being also boring. It feels like a class with little spice or sauce despite its narrative being exactly that.
16:04 I'm playing a Power Armor Inventor w/ Champion Multi-class and Wrestler Archetype (Talos gives me a modular unarmed attack) in Extinction Curse hella LOVING IT! The "you can use retrain faster" line is dumb though
- Holding my Poppet Summoner gentol - I actually have a lot of fun with it and make the Character (He's designed as a harlequin marionette, used to be an elven young man who lacked magic from a high magic merchant family; and got his soul sucked into a puppet when he went to seek a way to GAIN magic.) be the support caster while his Eidolon, who's themed after a Zelda Darknut, being the frontline attacker (Energy Heart too/Warrior Construct~). Soooo.. I don't really suffer much in action economy, and took a lot of buffing spells to let the rest of my party hold the line with my Eidolon. I think it suffers if you want to make a summoner who is standing with their Eidolon in combat.. Tho in the case of my boy Mystellen, lore wise, he is not a physical fighter. He can't hurt no one with arms made of fabric, cotton and birch wood. XD
Secrets of Magic is favorite book as it allows access to new subclasses, stances, and the Summoner and Magus. Flame Order and Wave Order are unique takes on Druidic Orders. Spellshot Gunslingers can be good if you love Alchemist Gunslingers with taking any archetypes.
Finally. Someone who understands the sad joke that is the Monk. It's not that the Monk is useless, it is just that they are far more limited and far more restricted when trying to do the same thing as other martials - especially when it is considered that all of the extra stance feats are specialized fighter feats with extra restrictions that are also hard locked to both a specific stance AND a feat chain. That is without going into how mutually exclusive the stance feats are, cutting the number of functionally usable feats for the Monk by over a third of the class's *total feat choices* because those are all stance locked and thus effectively dead/unusable if not in mutually exclusive stances. Also without going into how bad of an opportunity cost it is to spend *class feats* to gain access to what other martials can get by simply *spending a bit of gold* to get a different weapon. Yes, it has the benefit of not being able to be disarmed or otherwise having it removed from your character, but at the insanely high cost of an extremely limited resource (class feat) rather than the most easily replenished resource(money/gold) in the *entire game*.
I will forever defend Oracle's Curse. I can see how, mechanically speaking, it makes them weaker, *however,* the limiting factor of the Curse requires the Player to build around those limits which can make for some super fascinating builds. No Oracle of the Cosmos is going to be swinging a weapon, which means they can focus entirely on being an incredibly mobile long-distance spellslinger or party buffer. Conversely, Oracles of Battle are essentially front-and-center full casters, entirely focused on buff spells and AoE effects centered on themselves. The best character I've ever written in a roleplaying game was my Oracle of Flames, who was able to duck in and out of cover and concealment while lighting up the battlefield - a combination of AoE damage and a surprisingly good tank. I guess Oracles are to me what Maguses are to Nonat lmao
@LordTridus that focus spell is soo God awful I wonder if the faq/errata will change it/buff it to try and justify the print becouse it is fighting for it's life to be relevant in any scenario let alone an action and sustain effect. (BTW sigil domain has a better version of the spell soooooo)
@@christianlangdon3766 That focus spell is so bad that it's meme worthy. Honestly PC2 has so many errors and little issues that I feel like they ran out of time.
Precision Ranger with Gravity Weapon has damage comparable to a Giant Instinct Barbarian without the AC penalty. Add in the bonuses to perception and survival from hunt prey, add in the option to have animal companion, add in the option to ignore difficult terrain and catch enemies offguard in it, add in all the other focus spell options from healing to flying to teleportation... Do not get me wrong, Barbarian is one of my favourite classes. But if you are making Barbarian high A tier, then you can not just simply leave Ranger at B tier when it can compete with another classes main gimmick while having sooooo many more options in comparison in terms of playstyle... There are other parts of this tier list I disagree with as well, but this was just a little bit too obvious.
I don’t care that inventor is C tier. Anytime I’m allowed to be some magical engineer I’m in. Even if it’s more complicated and does less than just being a full on mage. It’s just so fun roleplay wise. Why shoot a fire ball out of your hand like every other wizard. when you can make a magical printing press that makes 100 fireball scrolls and you have them in a belt like those gunpowder charges during the 15-16th century. And you just swap scrolls for any situation.
Swashbuckler has got to be top for me, especially after the remaster. So many opportunities to debuff/buff while dealing damage, and at higher levels the action economy and access to fortune effects is crazy. Now that you get panache even on a failure for bravado actions theres no reason not to be making a finisher every turn.
Just as a reminder! Rules as written, only the animal companion rangers get through the ranger feat benefits from the ranger's hunt prey. Any other companion works as normal.
You know what drives me insane ? Cleric got a bettle spellstrike than Magus. Sure it's ONLY for Harm/Heal, but I wish spellstrike was reworked a bit to allow any *damaging* spell baseline, and have Expansive Spellstrike let you use spells that do other effects (slow, confusion, etc etc etc) and have the main target of your strike fail the save if you hit, and crit fail if you crit for damaging spells only. Or have it be "reduce the degree of success by 1 on a success, 2 on a crit. Or have it only be on crits or something) Magus really needs something to play with the action economy more, it very much feels like you are wrestling with it where other classes are playing with it. It also need other strikes to use when not using spellstrike, unique "blade and magic" attacks that capitalize on your arcane cascade some more.
I find it so funny that Nonat ALWAYS gave the Alchemist the highest tier in all lists even though they used to be AWFUL, but now that they're *finally* really good and would be 100% deserving of S-Tier is the one occasion where he didn't. That was honestly hilarious.🤣
16:17 I'm actually playing an Inventor as one of my two current PF2e characters. I distinctly recall the Overdrive crit success result thanks to a rather memorable experience in my last session. I spent my hero point to reroll the Overdrive check (turning a crit fail into a crit success), then immediately got a natural 1 on my attack and walloped another party member who was flanking my intended target. Which I wouldn't have been able to do if my weapon didn't have Reach.
I am so tired of people shitting on the new oracle. "Oh, it's just a divine sorcerer now. There's no point in playing one". The oracle has better AC because of armor proficiency, better health, a spell list that has significantly improved over the life of PF2e, and what is functionally a second pool of focus points. You want to know what was no better than a divine sorcerer? The legacy oracle that couldn't use their focus spells because maxing out your curse level prevented you from casting your revelation spells **for the rest of the day**. You lost half your class features by using the tools you were given. Unlike, you know, EVERY OTHER CASTER IN THE GAME who could expect to cast their focus spells any time they got in a fight. Keep in mind how many people took one look at the legacy oracle's mechanics and immediately said, "This class is dogshit". There's a REASON it got so heavily changed in the Remaster, and that's because it and the alchemist were the weakest classes in the game. In fact, I'm going to quote a well-known TH-camr about the oracle: "The oracle right now doesn't feel worth the effort. ... Their flavor ALONE is what's keeping them out of D tier ... And the benefits you gain from [the curses and mysteries] just aren't worth the brain power and the in-game effort ... Oracles just need more going for them, and as they are now, I just have no interest in playing one." That was YOU, in your class tier video 2 years ago. So for the love of god, stop it with this "oh, oracles are so bad now, why would the developers do this to such a fun class". They were bad before, and now they're actually functional.
The literal only downgrade on Oracle is the heal power for Life Oracle (since they don't get d12 heals now) but it's so much stronger than before. I have my criticisms, but it's not even close to as bad as the premaster version
As someone who has only played for a year, I'll say this, I avoided oracle on account of how the curse worked, and it felt like some of the benefits didn't outweigh the detriments, or even the fact they got more focus points at the start(?). I love this new Oracle because it's more straightforward, and the cursebpund trait basically acting like a second pool of focus points. The curses are also more concise and easier to keep up with versus before. I actually want to play an Oracle now.
For anyone who likes the flavor and what the class did before, the update IS shit because it broke that completely. As a generic caster with cursebound spells, it works fine. It's strong. People that didn't like the class before now find it much more playable, but that's at the expense of people that did like it. Battle and Life and terrible now, though. The battle focus spell is so bad it's meme worthy and using Life Link while the Life curse is up doesn't really make sense. And of course, anyone can get those cursebound spells with an archetype as there's no real limits around it.
I would have pushed the tier descriptions down a notch by adding a D-tier, relabeling A-tier as "On the Path", and setting S-tier as "Trailblazing the Path". Interesting insights though.
I'm kinda new to pf2e. But on a magus can you take the investigator archetype, get devise a strategem, and mix that with spellstrike? That way, you know if you rolled well or not, and can thus not waste your spells
You absolutely can. Though I imagine the tier list is based on the classes by themselves. Magus with investigator dedication can feel much better, but that's thanks to the dedication.
3 of my last 5 characters have been inventors, a heavy Crossbow invention full of runes using megaton strike is a sniper with better options than a gunslinger sniper, crit overdrive is your int bonus to damage for invention attacks
About Magus - it feels like after they gave cooler modular subclasses for Wizard, we can make that Wizard into an "Eldritch Knight" of sorts that is at least comparable with Magus. Important difference is the amount of spellslots. Giving Magus an archetype to somewhat catch up with spell slots compromises their effectiveness, because many of their class feats are too good to be missing. So you'd be stuck with your cantrips and focus spells for most part, which ain't bad per se, but... Wizard can use more Sure Strikes and more high level damaging spells.
A decent list but I feel the biggest flaw is that in many occasions you're judging classes by comparing them to other ones instead of focusing on the class own role.
I gotta defend the animal companions ranger feats, if you take the ranger feats for animal companion instead of the beastmaster archetype, your animal companion benefits from your ranger subclass. Very powerful, that’s why the feats come later.
You do only need the first level feat to get that benefit though. So you take that, then immediately divert into beastmaster. One extra feat, but you get two companions out of it, earlier scaling, and you keep the hunter's edge benefit.
Great video! There’s a few rankings I may disagree with, but I respect your rationale in making the choices you did. Given that 2e Pathfinder and 2e Starfinder are designed to be cross-compatible, can we look forward to an eventual mega-list video where classes from both systems are ranked together?
Something else I think needs weigh in on for the Witch is their familiar use. Way WAY back then, the familiar was a big drag on the Witch. But they’ve been adding a lot of options every year. And the TX:CG added some really good specific familiars too. Being able to access these sooner and change them up every day (due to Undying) really gives the Witch a leg-up on flexibility and versatility. I say ya, they’re B-tier. They had a massive glow-up, but still not quite there. But geez, are they still building their resume.
Dual-grappling Monk who can still deal decent damage by kicking raises the stocks of the class significantly, probably by a tier. And Warpriest Cleric is one of the best ways to get a do-anything character.
You're underestimating the value of monk's qi spells and saving throws. Harmonize Self combined with the best suite of saves in the game (rivaled only by rogue's triple evasion shenanigans but imo monk's still better because they can get legendary in fortitude or will, which are so much more important at legendary save levels than reflex) makes them SO survivable and once you're in the 12+ range where straight up damage is easy to deal with but saves and spell effects are terrifying and filled with instant death mines, having confidence in your saves is super important.
An Investigator with the Magus Archetype is crazy. You can save that 1 Spellstrike you have per fight until you roll a nat 20 (or know it's a guaranteed crit) on the Devise a Stratagem, then Spellstrike. Boom.
I love investigator but with the forensic subclass, and basically picking up all the options to "share" the bonuses against whoever you devise stratagems; and ofc all the healing options as well; both in and out of combat. Not only can you heal the allies and help whenever the party's stuck trying to find the bad guys, you also buff them in battle as if you were a bard, 11/10, my 2nd fav class after Thauma.
And maybe this is my 5e bias showing, but Monk would be A-tier at a minimum IF their damage was based on Dex. Having to split your attack and damage between Dex and Str just sucks.
Love Inventors! Automaton Inventor with Armored Chassis Ancestry feat as their Innovation? You basically are improving your self, with Technology! Overdrive Critical allows you to add your full Int Modifer on damage alongside your Strength
Running a Construct Inventor, my core idea was that Cold is an Actual energy source in the PfU, and sterling engines run off of Temperature differences not heat, thus I can combine Liquid Nitrogen, Sterling Clockwork, and low Kelvin Superconductors and Magnets to create some fun flavor for my spells. Also Magnetic levitation for suspension is a fun idea.
Something I noticed while watching this tier-list made me wonder something; With a few minor exceptions (especially after the Remaster) it feels like the non-D&D core classes felt like they wanted to have a bit more power creep, but were in some cases artificially restricted due to balancing issues. It honestly makes me wonder if you took out the Core Classes, and only ranked the Paizo classes specifically up to this point, where do they rank among themselves in that manner? If you don't have access to a Cleric or a Sorcerer, does that change how you rank something like the Oracle? (I'm not saying it does, I'm simply asking the question if its worth considering in that situation.)
I don’t think you needed to hedge on B-tier just because people might not have liked the alchemist, the remaster is a SOLIDLY A-tier class by just about any metric imo, the flexibility and utility are astounding, they really did the class justice at last. My favorite class from first edition deserves to be good enough to be loved!
While Witches might not have as many healing spells as the Cleric, they get access to a healing focus spell, that is pretty darn good. At level 2 it heals 8 for 1 action, so basically a maximized 1 action heal, only spread out over 4 rounds. Every spell rank, it increases the healing by 8, so increases at the same rate as 1 action heal spells. But! Unlike heal, after 10 minutes, you get it back. And, you can use Treat Wounds as your refocus activity, healing even more. They may not be the queen of in combat healing, but out of combat they are hard to beat. On top of being amazing debuffers. And, once again spreading out action economy over 2 rounds, they get Fireball a full rank early with Unseen Servant and Final Sacrifice, if you are an Occult Witch.
I'm really surprised about putting the inventor in C tier. It has amazing build diversity and multiclass potential. It almost feels like a thaumaturge but with gizmos and gadgets instead of esoterica and implements. I do agree that it feels forgotten, but I honestly don't know why. The class fantasy and build diversity are great (though I will say that the weapon inventors lag behind the armor and construct inventors a bit).
Imagine if monk could spend action points to get extra reactions and could react to more than one thing per turn. Maybe give some stances (or more generally feats with basic stuff like trip/disarm/shove) that could really reward their movement and make flurry of blows not as bad?
If you want to see a monk just absolutely decimate every combat, give them a Kusarigama. I have a player in my game who runs that on her monk and it's literally just like, three rounds of the party watching her run into the middle of everything and twirl around with a 10-foot reach weapon obliterating every enemy in the combat.
@@Rashagar The weapon has the Reach, Trip, Grapple, Monk, and Agile traits. It's stupid the number of things she can do without having to put away her weapon.
@@fftere +4 STR, +2 DEX IIRC, her AC is like 17? I forget. I run the game on Foundry and I don't have the server up right now to look at the sheet. She did take a hit to her AC, but she's been chunking through everything so fast half the time I don't have a chance to hit her. lol. This is our first PF2e game, I'm still learning all the ins and outs of things. Been DM'ing 5e for about six years so the changes have been *real,* lol. It's been great fun though. Learning a lot as we go.
I feel like they're using the Starfinder 2e playtest to test the waters on improving the Scatter trait in Pathfinder before they remaster the Gunslinger. The Area and Automatic traits give the ability to hit more than one target with a weapon, but it costs 2 actions to hit in an area and the enemy reflex saves instead of targeting AC. It's leaps and bounds better than single-digit splash damage that can't even beat the weakest resistances.
I think cleric is mid-high B at least. I think they are too good at buffing to qualify as C. Obviously behind Bard as a buffer, but they are basically second best at it
Corn Flakes sitting right between S and A tier.
Facts
frosted flakes are s tear
Cleric has a much better chassis than a Divine Sorcerer. Calling Warpriest a worse version of Champion is absolutely baffling; Warpriest and Champion have nearly nothing in common except for their aesthetics. Cleric isn't only good at healing; one of the advantages of the divine font is that you can fill your spell slots with everything else. If you're filling all of your other spell slots with healing, you're playing the Cleric class vastly below it's potential.
My thoughts as well...my warpriest of Cayden Cailean would have some words to say if he heard his abilities were a worse version of the champion in our party who tends to forget she can heal with lay on hands. Having 5 heals that do 3d10 for any given cast among some other nifty spells when used creatively can definitely make cleric more fun to play. He was built as a tank/shield for the other party members. The Champion is the strong arm, while the wizard is the heavy damage dealer...and the alchemist just exists. XD
@daiteach3505 Divine Sorcerer with the Cleric Archetype so he/she/the/them have acces to the feats to improve the heal spell is by far the best healer in the game. And is more flexible and has a greater healing pool as the traditional cleric
@@adakahlesshe did say he didn’t read the remaster good!!!
@@pascalmanders5781Divine sorcerers may be able to get a higher numerical bonus, but they lack all the feat support clerics get. A divine sorcerer has 4 spell slots at max vs 9 of cleric, cleric can use divine font spells to also remove debuffs with feats, and the cleric is far more "flexible" than a sorcerer. They can literally choose any spell in their whole list to prepare each day, vs being locked in to a handful.
Heroic Recovery blows anything sorcerer can do out of the water.
@stevensoult3665 no, takes heal as favored spell and all slots may be healing spells or may not, choice of the sorcerer. Take the Cleric Archetype and there goes your numerical advantage
“Champions always have to raise their shield.”
Meanwhile, my orc champion with a minigun is laughing manically while he shoots those dumb enough to attack his friends instead of him.
God I love Pathfinder
minigun?
@@Metroxide the Orc weapon, The Barricade Buster, is functionally a minigun. One of the only Repeating weapons in the game.
So an Ork with a lotta Dakka Dakka!
IDK, at lv 10 champions can react with shield blocks and reactive strikes to the same attack twice per turn for their allies. 3 at lv 14. The new shield build for champions in core 2 is busted
Warhammer player right here literal norc origin story
I feel like judging the summoner by the ofensive potential of the summoner itself is kinda like trying to swim against the tide, we shouldnt judge them by how close they are to what we want them to be, but rather to what they're suposed to be.
And what are they suposed to be? A martial platform with their own self buffing caster attached to them. Summoners excell when the summoner is buffing their eidolon instead of doing their own thing unrelated to their martial like only flicking saving throws cantrips. Thats what summoners can do that no martial nor caster can do.
Can confirm. I played a level 1-20 summoner with a plant eidolon, and my summoner never made an attack action the entire campaign. The fact that you and your eidolon share MAP is supposed to tell you that you aren't the one that's supposed to be attacking. Boost Eidolon is the best action ever, +2 to +8 to damage rolls is absolutely nuts, and it's essentially a free action if you aren't trying to get yourself into melee. Plus, you get to be a full-strength martial combatant through your eidolon, while still being a max charisma socialite for diplomacy and intimidation. Also, if you choose the trip trait for your eidolon's primary attack, you can get Weighty Impact at level 10, which gets the Knockdown action on a PC, which is also nuts, especially since your eidolon can also have a reactive strike when they try to stand back up (which also benefits from Boost Eidolon since that lasts till your next turn). Instead of needing to worry about a trip attempt affecting your MAP and potentially knocking you prone on a critical failure, you can Act Together to cast Boost Eidolon and move your eidolon into position, and then hit like a truck at full attack bonus, and then knock them over with no check or save, and then get another full attack bonus hit if they try to stand up.
Now it is rough that you basically have disadvantage on all reflex saves that hit both of you, but there are also some unbelievable advantages to technically being two targets. You don't get increased healing from AoE healing, but you do count as separate targets for battle medicine, so you can get double benefit from that, and you almost have advantage for mind-controlling effects since if your eidolon gets controlled, you can choose to not give them any of your actions, and if you get controlled, your eidolon can disregard your orders since it is an intelligent creature. My favorite personal example is in the final level 20 fight against the BBEG, my character was wounded 3 after almost three full rounds of not having a turn do to being moved in initiative every time he went down to an AoE, but I finally got a turn at ~5% hp. I used 1 action to summon my eidolon, and 2 actions to cast Moment of Renewal. Because MoR is multi-target instead of AoE, I could target myself and my eidolon in addition to the three allies who were also adjacent to me. And because I had also taken Fast Recovery, I got triple the healing from it, which healed me for ~95% of my max hp, putting me to full health which then also cleared the wounded condition because that clears from being at full hp for 10 minutes, and MoR lets you recover from conditions as if you had rested for 24 hours.
@@Yull-ReteI'm not reading that.
I mean, I agree, but I'm not reading that
@@Yull-ReteI mean, now that the Barbarian apparently no longer takes AC penalties during Rage Boost Eidolon it's kinda like a slightly worse Rage, but COME ON, comparing ANYTHING with Rage is gonna come out as worse. Summoner is my second favorite class in this game (used to be first but then the Kineticist happened, and now the Alchemist is so cool I'm wondering if it won't end up stealing second place too) because it can simply do SO MUCH in such a cool way!
Thanks so much for this. I would argue that the most important take away here is that the gap between tiers is HELLA smaller than in 'certain other games' and is more about versatility and 'opportunities to shine' than raw power. Thank you again for this and I look forward to the reaction vid to your pre-master list.
Wow, not what i expected for the Cleric from you to be honest. The divine spell list is so much better now than it was previously, and cleric feats are also pretty potent. Cast Down and Channel Smite alone make the class shine bright, and then you add their spells to the mix and they're easily upper B to A tier, depending on your subclass choices.
I'm sorry, but playing a strength based gladiator monk, taking the wrestler dedication, and hitting some poor bastard with a crit on a ki strike suplex, all while impersonating Macho Man Randy Savage is undoubtedly S tier
Yeah I feel like he's really underselling monk.
Hate to ruin your day, but you can't use ki strike with suplex, it's only plain Strikes or flurry of blows.
also that's a S tier wrestler moment, which you can do as a fighter and yes you will crit more, also works with Barbarian, or even ranger or swashbuckler.
it's strange, but i agree with nonat, PF2e monk is cool, but lacks something that defines it that is as relevant as other classes, also it feels bad that it doesn't have a map reduction like fighter and ranger
you can build a very good Monk, but it will good because your build and not because the class, meanwhile classes can just do their things well with their base chassis, i've seen a character who is a fighter with only 1 level fighter feat and all the other feats where archetype feats, and it works extremely well, with monk it could work but it would just be very mediocre, unless you are going wrestler or student of perfection.
Ooof. Big disagree on Wizard/Witch/Oracle. Actually looking at the final list, I think basically all spellcasting is underrepresented here.
New Oracle has too many spell slots. Combine that with easy access to cleric focus spells and their mystery/curse abilities unshackled from a focus pool and you have the caster most able to spit out meaningful affects a turn at the lowest cost.
Wizard has the most spell slots a day and the chassis is literally built for scroll scribing to fill out your versatility. It's a little more intensive than Sorc, but if played well is more effective.
New witch is sexy as hell. From a chassis perspective it's kinda like sorc and wizard had a baby, in that a witch can literally act as a fill for any spellcasting deficiency at character creation but still has the spell collecting and crafting ease that the wizard does. It needed the remaster buff to give it more identity, but now that it has it, maybe my favorite caster in the game.
I would argue oracle is still dodo trash. Sorcerer has almost as many spell slots, but are just better casters and can take oracle dedication to get the only strenght that oracle has. As a class oracle currently runs into the issue that it's chasis is pretty poor despite some good things. I would easily put it at the bottom of the classes every time. Champion even with a super strong dedication still is worth taking. Oracle doesn't have a really strong class identity until around lvl10 which I would argue is the definition the worst class, is that the dedication is th3 whole class up until that. Cleric into oracle dedication is a better oracle etc. Also by losing a lot of the buffs their focus spells are often worse as well which is just silly.
Wich on the other hand I feel is very very good. The eye build with a intimidation martial. Is just ludicrous amounts of debuffing, along with easy access to slow means it's a permanent loss of action econ for enemies. That's near s tier amount of power in one ability. Even if I think many witches are mid.
@@christianlangdon3766, I need to really give a good looksie over PC2 oracle. I'm just kinda going with my gut here, but with its base proficiencies, spell slots and the divine list being way nicer than when the game released, I think it's probably pretty strong.
Most people may play FA, but you can't really judge a class based on FA.
@@AlexKlindt ye I think it's strong just agaisnt what I wanted from an oracle, oracle to me was always someone with cool magic actions that weren't spells but spells formed their backup and enhanced flavor. Now it seems spellcasting is the only thing they got going for them.
“Every magus misses with their slotted spellstrikes.”
Meanwhile the boss I built up to cap off this level one dungeon, complete with multiple phases explodes in round two due to a crit rapier spellstrike.
Again, god I love pathfinder
Lmao ya I did that during a module with my sparkling targe magus I combo sure strike with my spell strike when I use a slotted spell to insure I at least hit but… ya. I one shot the boss of the encounter from max HP lmao we were only lv 3 at the time though.
Magus is a bit better than he gave it credit for IMO. But not by much
The strength of the Monk isn't being fast and Agile. The strength of the Monk is in action economy. The speed bonus, as an example, lets you get from point a to point b using minimum actions (Qi Rush, Shrink the Span, Winding Flow, Wind Jump, etc. all work to a similar goal). The goal of Flurry of Blows isn't to be able to hit twice; it is to get some other action in while getting your normal expected number of "martial attacks".
The divine spell list has come a long way since the beginning, and thinking of clerics as heal bots is pretty harsh. I'm currently playing a harm cleric with the player goal of never preparing the heal spell even once through out the entire campaign, and he's far from useless. In fact, I often don't have enough actions to do everything I want in a given turn, so if you see a cleric standing around because everyone is full health, something has gone horribly wrong.
Before I start viewing...I'm gonna say...Fighter is the most "OP" LOL
I know this won't change the ranking, which is fine, but i had a Summoner player in my game that went with Dragon. Arcane list gives some very good saving throw spells, and if she wanted to attack, the Dragon used it's breath weapon. It was pretty effective.
I played as a summoner that had a plant based Eidolon and that thing was cracked. The fact that I was able to have it be large with reach and then still be able to sling spells that target saving throws felt incredible to me. The flavour of the class was also pretty amazing as it really did feel like we were of one mind in combat despite being two beings. The summoner themself might not be all that strong compared to other casters, but the summon felt like a whole other player character on the field.
One of the characters that I'd love to play is a summoner with a psychopomp eidolon. Or maybe a devotion phantom. The concept is fairly solid in my mind but I keep going back and forth on the actual mechanics.
Summoner is great. Guy in my Ruby Phoenix game has a beast eidolon that knocks things down then hits them, then hits them again when they get up, while the Summoner can also cast. It's great.
Surprised to hear the summoner called limited. That was totally the opposite of my experience playing one in Age of Ashes. The thing I was really good at was just being wherever I was needed.
Monster rushing up to someone? My eidolon was there to flank.
A mook trying to flank us at the same time? My summoner was there to blast them.
We needed someone to do a puzzle while fighting the boss? I could do both at the same time; it was great.
Then I hit level 10 and got Weighty Impact. I started bullying monsters. I don't know what else to call it.
Any class that has a full extra action they can use on basically whatever they want from level 1 is inevitably gonna be crazy versatile. Summoners play into the strengths of this system in a way no other class could before the Kineticist was released.
10:00 - Cleric has so many heals. Water/Wood Kineticist: "hold my tree for a moment."
14:00 - Fighter... when you crit on a 14. Meanwhile my last Gunslinger: And... that's an 11, I crit. Again. With Fatal trait... that's 3-billion damage.
16:25 - Me as a player who's favorite class is Gunslinger: Wait, this game has an inventor class? GM: Yeah... it's literally the other half of that book you've been hugging this whole game session. ;)
I'm going to disagree with your take on summoner. There are so many saving throw spells in the game. You don't think of it as two attackers. You are a support character and a frontline fighter, not two fighters. So don't knock it for not being something it doesn't remotely need to be. It's not S tier, but an easy B. Tons of self-healing from focus spells. Plus dragons get some nasty, nasty action economy boosts. You really should give it another look. You also get two exploration activities, which shouldn't be discounted. Two chances to notice traps, or auto-scouting and perception, or detect magic and perception
Predicting before I watch... Bard and Fighter will be in S.
"Warpriest is just worse Champion" - you are comparing a subclass to a full class, which says a lot about Cleric as a whole. Warpriests specifically have skyrocketed in what they can achieve all at once after the remaster, being able to stand side-by-side with the party's martials, and buff as well as any other divine caster, and heal better than any other class - all at the same time.
I just love oracles too much to ever be happy playing a cleric. I think adding deities is a great way to add flavour to a character, but weirdly that doesn't feel as interesting to me when the character is a cleric of that deity.
@@Rashagar Always happy to see a fellow Oracle appreciator)
@@Rashagar wish I could say that my favorite clas wasn't just butchered. Battle oracle is better played as a warpriest with oracle dedication. And there is almost no way to argue agaisnt it.
@@RashagarI used to share this opinion about the Oracle. But then the remastered came and the cool identity of the poor bastard became too diluted for me to be able to recognize.
My son's playing a str-based goblins Inventor in our campaign currently and as the GM it seems like he has a ton of options and flexibility. He's squishy for a frontline (sword and shield) but that forces him to think outside the box and rely on his team. He's our lone Arcana guy, does the crafting of course, and handles a lot of the Athletics stuff in combat.
All this to say I'd love to watch that Inventor video you mentioned and hear your thoughts. I want to better be able to run the game for him.
Champion is easily the most effective class in the game for most parties, and it's not even really close. Paizo devs have straight-up said that when they do their testing, which involves an entire party and slotting a class into of the 4 default roles (fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric), the Champion almost always out-performs the fighter when it takes the fighter role. Easiest S tier of all time. Defense is massively good in PF2e, and the only other class that comes close is: Cleric, which is now also absolutely incredible with the changes to spirit damage. Warpriest is one of the most versatile classes on the battlefield, because they can slot into any role needed fairly well, they're always great at buffing, and they still have the best healing by a mile. Another incredibly easy S tier.
Def gotta agree on Rogue. Been playing a Ruffian rogue with the Wrestler free archetype and he's been one of the scariest guys in the party. And helping the others gain damage with Gang Up. Hes been a beast. Plus despite being a Ruffian his skill list is still insane so he's still doing the Roguey stuff on top of it. Been awesome.
Reasons why I would put Monk a bit higher (maybe not a higher tier but higher in the tier at least):
1: No need for weapons or armour, meaning you can be the pack mule of the party if you go Strength.
2: Superb AC and Saving Throws. Starting with Expert in all of those is good at low levels at the very least.
I feel like he's also really underselling the action economy. Getting your two attacks in with one action is great and really frees you up to do other stuff as well. Or do things like run in, attack and move out with a high speed forcing the enemy to use multiple moves (depnding on their movement) to reach you etc.
Monks superior action economy also makes them really good for using aid. With the new default aid DC being 15, monks can pretty much throw free +2's to a single ally each turn by the time they hit level 5.
Honestly Inventor is one of my favorite classes in PF2e. It's so fun especially because it's basically an in system way to play a Kamen Rider with the like Gigaton feats being finishers. Just super fun
My latest champion appreciates the new feat allowing her to raise shield, stride, then strike for two actions. Love it.
Ironically I *LOVE* how meta the Investigator gets because its never too broken early game and it fits that sherlock fantasy. Especially if you use your own deductions to figure out meta knowledge it feels rewarding!
I wholeheartedly agree with u on the magus. Right now I'm running a magus with the investigator subclass so I can devise a stratagem before I spellstrike to ensure it'll hit. I've been careful to try and make sure that the enemies encountered are the subject of my investigation so that the roll is a free action too. Alternatively, filling out scrolls and/or spellslots with true strike can work too.
Try out Investigator with eldritch archer archetype. Easy S-Tier. DaS before using the big spells - if you know you won't crit just switch target with a simple attack. If you also use the alchemy subclass of the investigator you also have plenty of options if you know you would miss with your attack
I disagree with monk. They may not king out on damage but they are just GOOD at everything. Good ac good hit good damage good action economy and the uprgade success on save to crit for path to perfection is nice. They embody the do everything martial
Totally fair on investigator. Its so much fun in theory, and a lot of fun in practice too but it does feel like youre slowing things down much of the time
days when my mother was there really takes me back. used to fall asleep to this song alllll the time. also cool vid ty pathfinder man
"Everyone forgets the inventor"
"Familiars don't do much in combat"
Meanwhile I'm putting together a lvl6 metal and wood kineticist with Inventor archetype to basically set up a ballista with a funny little robot firing it atop of a barricade costing 2 actions instead of 3 after I cast it.
It's all about the mental illness
Mental illness or image?
@@undrhil yes
Oh I am SO excited for this. My group is gearing up for a new campaign and I have analysis paralysis on my class. You sum up classes so well.
I was with you until Oracle. I think you got that completely wrong:
- 4 slot divine spontaneous caster
- Charisma based
- focus spells
- feats (some of them really good) that can be done 2-3 times per combat [and the curses aren't that impactful anymore] - Whispers of Weakness itself is S-tier
What does a Divine Sorcerer have, that an Oracle doesn't??
Also 8 hp and light armor proficiency
I don't agree with Cleric being so low. Yes, they are great at healing due to the extra spell slots, but these extra spell slots also allow you to explore the Divine spells, and with the remaster, they are eating quite well, adding damage and control. Besides, you can always grab the Harm font and instead of healing your party, you can nuke foes that aren't immune to void damage with d10s that also force the foe prone. You can also go with Warpriest and serve as a bulkier full caster, not as good at martial as a Champion and without the fun protection stuff, but with a lot of spells to compensate for it.
I also disagree with Gunslinger. I love gunslingers, they are one of my favorite classes. But their "feast or farmine" nature makes them very unreliable unless you can crit, and while they can be a pretty solid supportive martial with the Ways, but since your attacks cost 2 actions (one to attack proper and one to reload, unless you are one of those Magazine freaks), your consistency goes down even more.
But hey, those are my opinions, and that's the fun part of these discussions: knowing what each share, as long as everyone is civilized!
I wonder if he is ever going to make the thaumaturge implement tier list that goes over what tier each level of implement is(initiate, adapt, Paragon). Like what bloodedshingle had said
He did give Tier Scores to each of them in his Implements video
Yes I remember Inventor, I play an Inventor. He's basically just gnomish Dr. Octopus. He's a weapon innovation inventor, his weapon is an Asp Coil that I've reskinned as my "brass tentacles." It comes with Slashing, Versatile Piercing and Reach. The three weapon innovations I've applied have given it trip, grab, shove, versatile bludgeoning, and free hand.. My GM let me bend the rules and grab Automaton as an Adopted Ancestry, which allows me to integrate the weapon as part of my body and integrate a shield as part of my body, and have the equivalent of a breast plate in armor as part of my body. The shield and armor are also flavored as octopus arms. His strength is through the roof and he's a master in Athletics, so when he grapples, trips or shoves from 10 feet away, it works really well. And that's just the basic arm stuff.
He's not doing as much damage as our Barbarian, or our Magus, but he's still kinda the best. He sets himself on fire a lot when he tries to cauterize other people's wounds but that just adds to his charm.
I feel like you really undervalued the action economy available to Monk because of Flurry. It really frees you up for strong skill actions like battle medicine, demoralize and athletics actions
My first character in Pathfinder was a Magus. And part of my heart will always be with them. But wanting to traverse the abomination vaults it’s pretty much a no-go with the amount of magic resistant and straight up immune enemies.
Elemental Druid can shapeshift and follow the path and smell specifically what the rock is cooking.
I think, what would make the Oracle effective, was if they still got the benefit/detriment aspect of their curse from before the remaste, but it only triggered off of curse bound abilities, not focus spells.
I appreciate the joke because the Praxis and Theory questline is one of my favorite XBC2 sidequests.
The merits to the oracle as I see it is they essentially have over double focus spells as well as four slot casting. They have the most gas in the tank of any caster, and are probably the most sustainable between encounters as you can refocus to get some really good oracle focus spells like thunderburst alongside getting your curse feats back. Divine sorcerers with sorceries potency might get more bang for your buck, but Oracle has an entire additional wallet.
Going to disagree you get worse focus spell access than arguably champion who No one ever considers a focus spell caster as a strenght.
You get 1 focus spell to start. Another at 2nd level, wait till 6th level to get your third, you need 12th to get the upper domain spells, vs lvl8. Like naw man you arent getting shit in Detroit. And oracles focus spells aren't even strong to start with. War, life, etc old oracle was way better of a focus caster, even having an Uber mode of infinite focus spells which the current one lacks. Anything you get early on is a dedication feat away to get your strongest stuff which you can't even be the best to use. Visions of weakness is bonkers on fighter and a bunch of martials. Etc there is very little to recommend oracle aside from saying it can be a necromancy style cleric or fire cleric becouse otherwise cleric is just better.
"The bard is hard..." Yep. Usually that's a problem.
Rogues in combat I'd agree with your rating, but with their options outside of combat, I find them to be peerless as the most all-round class. They are great at everything, including combat. So they are top of S tier.
This is my personal tier list. This is based more on my personal favorites rather than objectively good. Also I am not as familiar with all of the new Remaster stuff.
S - Gunslinger, Psychic, Champion, Bard
A - Fighter, Rogue, Alchemist, Kineticist, Swashbuckler, Thaumaturge
B - Barbarian, Sorcerer, Monk, Summoner, Ranger
C - Druid, Cleric, Witch, Wizard, Magus
F - Investigator, Oracle, Inventor
Dude thanks for doing this! While I might slightly disagree a bit with your choices, I always learn a ton by watching this. Now I realize that this would be VERY difficult to do but I would be interested in say your opinions with these with using the Free Archetype variant rule. So as you said in another awesome video; a Magus or Gunslinger with an Investigator archetype would be a LOT better. So what if you picked each class and said something like "If I had to pick a free archetype(s), what would it be and how much better would this class be to play?"
Minor nitpick: Your scaling is weird, man. S-Tier is supposed to represent going above and beyond. It's for when somebody doesn't just hit a home run, they knock out of the entire park. A-Tier is what something SHOULD be aiming for, S-Tier is for when it exceeds even 'doing it right'.
Leaving no room for 'above and beyond' leaves things feeling...weird.
Inventor is fantastic. I’ve been playing one for the past year. With that class I solo’d a forest dragon, and you guessed it EXPLODE is what cinched the win for me.
I took the gadget feat, and changing them out for whatever mission we re about to do has been amazing.
Unsolicited opinion: I think you have issue with it’s permanence being its impermanence. It’s malleability I see as a strength, not a weakness. While I also agree that to get the most out of the class you need to understand the PF rules in crafting and retraining feats, but if you do take the time to learn them you’ll have a class capable to survive and kick ass when needed.
My main issue is the subclass features it has are borderline snore fests with many feats being also boring. It feels like a class with little spice or sauce despite its narrative being exactly that.
16:04 I'm playing a Power Armor Inventor w/ Champion Multi-class and Wrestler Archetype (Talos gives me a modular unarmed attack) in Extinction Curse hella LOVING IT! The "you can use retrain faster" line is dumb though
- Holding my Poppet Summoner gentol -
I actually have a lot of fun with it and make the Character (He's designed as a harlequin marionette, used to be an elven young man who lacked magic from a high magic merchant family; and got his soul sucked into a puppet when he went to seek a way to GAIN magic.) be the support caster while his Eidolon, who's themed after a Zelda Darknut, being the frontline attacker (Energy Heart too/Warrior Construct~). Soooo..
I don't really suffer much in action economy, and took a lot of buffing spells to let the rest of my party hold the line with my Eidolon. I think it suffers if you want to make a summoner who is standing with their Eidolon in combat..
Tho in the case of my boy Mystellen, lore wise, he is not a physical fighter. He can't hurt no one with arms made of fabric, cotton and birch wood. XD
I'm playing a poppet kineticist. Poppet's rule!
I'm playing a Poppet Summoner as well! She's a pirate plushie mounting her parrot beast eidolon
Secrets of Magic is favorite book as it allows access to new subclasses, stances, and the Summoner and Magus. Flame Order and Wave Order are unique takes on Druidic Orders. Spellshot Gunslingers can be good if you love Alchemist Gunslingers with taking any archetypes.
Finally. Someone who understands the sad joke that is the Monk.
It's not that the Monk is useless, it is just that they are far more limited and far more restricted when trying to do the same thing as other martials - especially when it is considered that all of the extra stance feats are specialized fighter feats with extra restrictions that are also hard locked to both a specific stance AND a feat chain.
That is without going into how mutually exclusive the stance feats are, cutting the number of functionally usable feats for the Monk by over a third of the class's *total feat choices* because those are all stance locked and thus effectively dead/unusable if not in mutually exclusive stances.
Also without going into how bad of an opportunity cost it is to spend *class feats* to gain access to what other martials can get by simply *spending a bit of gold* to get a different weapon. Yes, it has the benefit of not being able to be disarmed or otherwise having it removed from your character, but at the insanely high cost of an extremely limited resource (class feat) rather than the most easily replenished resource(money/gold) in the *entire game*.
I will forever defend Oracle's Curse. I can see how, mechanically speaking, it makes them weaker, *however,* the limiting factor of the Curse requires the Player to build around those limits which can make for some super fascinating builds. No Oracle of the Cosmos is going to be swinging a weapon, which means they can focus entirely on being an incredibly mobile long-distance spellslinger or party buffer. Conversely, Oracles of Battle are essentially front-and-center full casters, entirely focused on buff spells and AoE effects centered on themselves. The best character I've ever written in a roleplaying game was my Oracle of Flames, who was able to duck in and out of cover and concealment while lighting up the battlefield - a combination of AoE damage and a surprisingly good tank. I guess Oracles are to me what Maguses are to Nonat lmao
Battle Oracle isn't really that anymore. Remaster messed that up pretty good.
@LordTridus that focus spell is soo God awful I wonder if the faq/errata will change it/buff it to try and justify the print becouse it is fighting for it's life to be relevant in any scenario let alone an action and sustain effect.
(BTW sigil domain has a better version of the spell soooooo)
@@christianlangdon3766 That focus spell is so bad that it's meme worthy. Honestly PC2 has so many errors and little issues that I feel like they ran out of time.
Precision Ranger with Gravity Weapon has damage comparable to a Giant Instinct Barbarian without the AC penalty. Add in the bonuses to perception and survival from hunt prey, add in the option to have animal companion, add in the option to ignore difficult terrain and catch enemies offguard in it, add in all the other focus spell options from healing to flying to teleportation...
Do not get me wrong, Barbarian is one of my favourite classes. But if you are making Barbarian high A tier, then you can not just simply leave Ranger at B tier when it can compete with another classes main gimmick while having sooooo many more options in comparison in terms of playstyle...
There are other parts of this tier list I disagree with as well, but this was just a little bit too obvious.
EVERY +1 MATTERS.
But who cares about a +3 or +4.
I don’t care that inventor is C tier. Anytime I’m allowed to be some magical engineer I’m in. Even if it’s more complicated and does less than just being a full on mage. It’s just so fun roleplay wise. Why shoot a fire ball out of your hand like every other wizard. when you can make a magical printing press that makes 100 fireball scrolls and you have them in a belt like those gunpowder charges during the 15-16th century. And you just swap scrolls for any situation.
Swashbuckler has got to be top for me, especially after the remaster. So many opportunities to debuff/buff while dealing damage, and at higher levels the action economy and access to fortune effects is crazy. Now that you get panache even on a failure for bravado actions theres no reason not to be making a finisher every turn.
Just as a reminder! Rules as written, only the animal companion rangers get through the ranger feat benefits from the ranger's hunt prey. Any other companion works as normal.
You know what drives me insane ?
Cleric got a bettle spellstrike than Magus.
Sure it's ONLY for Harm/Heal, but I wish spellstrike was reworked a bit to allow any *damaging* spell baseline, and have Expansive Spellstrike let you use spells that do other effects (slow, confusion, etc etc etc) and have the main target of your strike fail the save if you hit, and crit fail if you crit for damaging spells only. Or have it be "reduce the degree of success by 1 on a success, 2 on a crit. Or have it only be on crits or something)
Magus really needs something to play with the action economy more, it very much feels like you are wrestling with it where other classes are playing with it.
It also need other strikes to use when not using spellstrike, unique "blade and magic" attacks that capitalize on your arcane cascade some more.
I find it so funny that Nonat ALWAYS gave the Alchemist the highest tier in all lists even though they used to be AWFUL, but now that they're *finally* really good and would be 100% deserving of S-Tier is the one occasion where he didn't. That was honestly hilarious.🤣
16:17 I'm actually playing an Inventor as one of my two current PF2e characters. I distinctly recall the Overdrive crit success result thanks to a rather memorable experience in my last session.
I spent my hero point to reroll the Overdrive check (turning a crit fail into a crit success), then immediately got a natural 1 on my attack and walloped another party member who was flanking my intended target. Which I wouldn't have been able to do if my weapon didn't have Reach.
tbf, Bards also get the occult spell list, which is arguably the best spell list in the game.
I am so tired of people shitting on the new oracle. "Oh, it's just a divine sorcerer now. There's no point in playing one". The oracle has better AC because of armor proficiency, better health, a spell list that has significantly improved over the life of PF2e, and what is functionally a second pool of focus points. You want to know what was no better than a divine sorcerer? The legacy oracle that couldn't use their focus spells because maxing out your curse level prevented you from casting your revelation spells **for the rest of the day**. You lost half your class features by using the tools you were given. Unlike, you know, EVERY OTHER CASTER IN THE GAME who could expect to cast their focus spells any time they got in a fight.
Keep in mind how many people took one look at the legacy oracle's mechanics and immediately said, "This class is dogshit". There's a REASON it got so heavily changed in the Remaster, and that's because it and the alchemist were the weakest classes in the game. In fact, I'm going to quote a well-known TH-camr about the oracle: "The oracle right now doesn't feel worth the effort. ... Their flavor ALONE is what's keeping them out of D tier ... And the benefits you gain from [the curses and mysteries] just aren't worth the brain power and the in-game effort ... Oracles just need more going for them, and as they are now, I just have no interest in playing one."
That was YOU, in your class tier video 2 years ago. So for the love of god, stop it with this "oh, oracles are so bad now, why would the developers do this to such a fun class". They were bad before, and now they're actually functional.
The literal only downgrade on Oracle is the heal power for Life Oracle (since they don't get d12 heals now) but it's so much stronger than before. I have my criticisms, but it's not even close to as bad as the premaster version
As someone who has only played for a year, I'll say this, I avoided oracle on account of how the curse worked, and it felt like some of the benefits didn't outweigh the detriments, or even the fact they got more focus points at the start(?).
I love this new Oracle because it's more straightforward, and the cursebpund trait basically acting like a second pool of focus points.
The curses are also more concise and easier to keep up with versus before. I actually want to play an Oracle now.
For anyone who likes the flavor and what the class did before, the update IS shit because it broke that completely.
As a generic caster with cursebound spells, it works fine. It's strong. People that didn't like the class before now find it much more playable, but that's at the expense of people that did like it.
Battle and Life and terrible now, though. The battle focus spell is so bad it's meme worthy and using Life Link while the Life curse is up doesn't really make sense.
And of course, anyone can get those cursebound spells with an archetype as there's no real limits around it.
The magus was more powerful in 1E. Having played one all the way to level 20 I feel like they got nerfed hard in 2E.
I would have pushed the tier descriptions down a notch by adding a D-tier, relabeling A-tier as "On the Path", and setting S-tier as "Trailblazing the Path". Interesting insights though.
due to the crazy amount of extra spell slots i'd say that Cleric matches best with the flexible spellcaster archetype
So glad you gave thaumaturge the credit it deserves
I'm kinda new to pf2e. But on a magus can you take the investigator archetype, get devise a strategem, and mix that with spellstrike?
That way, you know if you rolled well or not, and can thus not waste your spells
You absolutely can. Though I imagine the tier list is based on the classes by themselves. Magus with investigator dedication can feel much better, but that's thanks to the dedication.
Rogue is also the only class in the game that can do a pure dex build melee not needing anything else for damage
3 of my last 5 characters have been inventors, a heavy Crossbow invention full of runes using megaton strike is a sniper with better options than a gunslinger sniper, crit overdrive is your int bonus to damage for invention attacks
About Magus - it feels like after they gave cooler modular subclasses for Wizard, we can make that Wizard into an "Eldritch Knight" of sorts that is at least comparable with Magus. Important difference is the amount of spellslots. Giving Magus an archetype to somewhat catch up with spell slots compromises their effectiveness, because many of their class feats are too good to be missing. So you'd be stuck with your cantrips and focus spells for most part, which ain't bad per se, but... Wizard can use more Sure Strikes and more high level damaging spells.
A decent list but I feel the biggest flaw is that in many occasions you're judging classes by comparing them to other ones instead of focusing on the class own role.
I gotta defend the animal companions ranger feats, if you take the ranger feats for animal companion instead of the beastmaster archetype, your animal companion benefits from your ranger subclass. Very powerful, that’s why the feats come later.
You do only need the first level feat to get that benefit though. So you take that, then immediately divert into beastmaster. One extra feat, but you get two companions out of it, earlier scaling, and you keep the hunter's edge benefit.
Great video! There’s a few rankings I may disagree with, but I respect your rationale in making the choices you did.
Given that 2e Pathfinder and 2e Starfinder are designed to be cross-compatible, can we look forward to an eventual mega-list video where classes from both systems are ranked together?
Something else I think needs weigh in on for the Witch is their familiar use.
Way WAY back then, the familiar was a big drag on the Witch.
But they’ve been adding a lot of options every year. And the TX:CG added some really good specific familiars too.
Being able to access these sooner and change them up every day (due to Undying) really gives the Witch a leg-up on flexibility and versatility.
I say ya, they’re B-tier. They had a massive glow-up, but still not quite there. But geez, are they still building their resume.
Dual-grappling Monk who can still deal decent damage by kicking raises the stocks of the class significantly, probably by a tier.
And Warpriest Cleric is one of the best ways to get a do-anything character.
Love the ending reaction and the switch of music to Phoenix Wright.
Divine Sorcerer with the Cleric Archetype for the feats is the best healer in the game
Thaumaturge love... continues to outshine and hasnt even been touched by remaster
You're underestimating the value of monk's qi spells and saving throws. Harmonize Self combined with the best suite of saves in the game (rivaled only by rogue's triple evasion shenanigans but imo monk's still better because they can get legendary in fortitude or will, which are so much more important at legendary save levels than reflex) makes them SO survivable and once you're in the 12+ range where straight up damage is easy to deal with but saves and spell effects are terrifying and filled with instant death mines, having confidence in your saves is super important.
An Investigator with the Magus Archetype is crazy. You can save that 1 Spellstrike you have per fight until you roll a nat 20 (or know it's a guaranteed crit) on the Devise a Stratagem, then Spellstrike. Boom.
Video starts at 3:10
I love investigator but with the forensic subclass, and basically picking up all the options to "share" the bonuses against whoever you devise stratagems; and ofc all the healing options as well; both in and out of combat.
Not only can you heal the allies and help whenever the party's stuck trying to find the bad guys, you also buff them in battle as if you were a bard, 11/10, my 2nd fav class after Thauma.
I think my biggest problem with summoner is that a lot of their feats seem over leveled for when you get them and for what they do.
And maybe this is my 5e bias showing, but Monk would be A-tier at a minimum IF their damage was based on Dex. Having to split your attack and damage between Dex and Str just sucks.
Love Inventors! Automaton Inventor with Armored Chassis Ancestry feat as their Innovation? You basically are improving your self, with Technology! Overdrive Critical allows you to add your full Int Modifer on damage alongside your Strength
Running a Construct Inventor, my core idea was that Cold is an Actual energy source in the PfU, and sterling engines run off of Temperature differences not heat, thus I can combine Liquid Nitrogen, Sterling Clockwork, and low Kelvin Superconductors and Magnets to create some fun flavor for my spells. Also Magnetic levitation for suspension is a fun idea.
Sometimes I can’t tell when a class is good, bad, or people are b*tchong to much because it can’t be “optimized”. It distresses me to no end.
Remember, the only tier list that matters is the tier list in your heart 💖
EVERY class can be optimized. You optimize by making the build versatile. Classes are not good or bad. You break this game at time of play.
Magus is really cool if your DM gives out hero points often
Pretty sure remastered alchemist is pretty insane, but still complicated
Bard, Thaumaturge, Fighter, Rogue sounds like the perfect party.
Something I noticed while watching this tier-list made me wonder something; With a few minor exceptions (especially after the Remaster) it feels like the non-D&D core classes felt like they wanted to have a bit more power creep, but were in some cases artificially restricted due to balancing issues. It honestly makes me wonder if you took out the Core Classes, and only ranked the Paizo classes specifically up to this point, where do they rank among themselves in that manner? If you don't have access to a Cleric or a Sorcerer, does that change how you rank something like the Oracle? (I'm not saying it does, I'm simply asking the question if its worth considering in that situation.)
I don’t think you needed to hedge on B-tier just because people might not have liked the alchemist, the remaster is a SOLIDLY A-tier class by just about any metric imo, the flexibility and utility are astounding, they really did the class justice at last. My favorite class from first edition deserves to be good enough to be loved!
While Witches might not have as many healing spells as the Cleric, they get access to a healing focus spell, that is pretty darn good. At level 2 it heals 8 for 1 action, so basically a maximized 1 action heal, only spread out over 4 rounds. Every spell rank, it increases the healing by 8, so increases at the same rate as 1 action heal spells. But! Unlike heal, after 10 minutes, you get it back. And, you can use Treat Wounds as your refocus activity, healing even more. They may not be the queen of in combat healing, but out of combat they are hard to beat. On top of being amazing debuffers. And, once again spreading out action economy over 2 rounds, they get Fireball a full rank early with Unseen Servant and Final Sacrifice, if you are an Occult Witch.
Hm... okay... Champion in A tier... is acceptable.
I'm really surprised about putting the inventor in C tier. It has amazing build diversity and multiclass potential. It almost feels like a thaumaturge but with gizmos and gadgets instead of esoterica and implements. I do agree that it feels forgotten, but I honestly don't know why. The class fantasy and build diversity are great (though I will say that the weapon inventors lag behind the armor and construct inventors a bit).
Imagine if monk could spend action points to get extra reactions and could react to more than one thing per turn. Maybe give some stances (or more generally feats with basic stuff like trip/disarm/shove) that could really reward their movement and make flurry of blows not as bad?
Ah yes, using my actions for extra actions
If you want to see a monk just absolutely decimate every combat, give them a Kusarigama. I have a player in my game who runs that on her monk and it's literally just like, three rounds of the party watching her run into the middle of everything and twirl around with a 10-foot reach weapon obliterating every enemy in the combat.
Out of curiosity, is it just that it's a reach weapon or is there something specific they're doing with it?
@@Rashagar The weapon has the Reach, Trip, Grapple, Monk, and Agile traits. It's stupid the number of things she can do without having to put away her weapon.
@@Scorpious187But it's not finesse, which means she went Str Monk, punishing her AC. Can you tell specifics of her build?
@@fftere +4 STR, +2 DEX IIRC, her AC is like 17? I forget. I run the game on Foundry and I don't have the server up right now to look at the sheet. She did take a hit to her AC, but she's been chunking through everything so fast half the time I don't have a chance to hit her. lol.
This is our first PF2e game, I'm still learning all the ins and outs of things. Been DM'ing 5e for about six years so the changes have been *real,* lol. It's been great fun though. Learning a lot as we go.
@@Scorpious187 Weird, my rogue has better specs and still getting beat up hard. I'll never get back to 5e tho
I feel like they're using the Starfinder 2e playtest to test the waters on improving the Scatter trait in Pathfinder before they remaster the Gunslinger. The Area and Automatic traits give the ability to hit more than one target with a weapon, but it costs 2 actions to hit in an area and the enemy reflex saves instead of targeting AC. It's leaps and bounds better than single-digit splash damage that can't even beat the weakest resistances.
I think cleric is mid-high B at least. I think they are too good at buffing to qualify as C. Obviously behind Bard as a buffer, but they are basically second best at it
Same! Their Divibe Font means they don't need to manually prepare a bunch of Heal spells, opening up a ton of spell slots for other stuff.
Oracle: you guys got paths?