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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 ก.ย. 2022
- Which Thaumaturge Implement Subclass in the best? Let's talk about it.
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If you're ever feeling masochistic, NoNat, redo this video, but with implement pick orders instead of just the implements themselves. Drained 7 by the end of the video, guaranteed.
The amulet is NOT a 'poor mans champion reaction', there's a huge difference: the amulet requires only the shielded target to be within 15ft, while champions need BOTH the attacked and target to be within 15ft. So a champion can almost never block ranged attacks (unless that attack comes from an enemy within 15 ft)
Exactly, this is a very uneducated take
Adept Mirror: The copy only shatters if damaged by an adjacent enemy, not if you voluntarily break it (such as by moving). And because the copy is still a duplicate of you when it takes damage, you don't avoid that damage by shattering the duplicate. It's a good punish and could make some enemies choose to attack someone that doesn't explode into slashing shards, but you still get hurt by the triggering attack.
not to mention that the aoe dmg always damages nearby allies too, (it's also not an optional ability, so you will deal damage to allies if you are hit next to them)
Do an animal companion tier list, now that there are so many of them!
@Nonat1s Here's a list: ape, arboreal sapling, badger bat, bear, beetle, bird, boar, camel capybara cat, cave gecko, cave pterosaur, crocodile, dromaesaur, elephant, fiery leopard, ghost, gibtas, horse, hyna, legchair, monitor lizard, moth, pangolin, rhinoceros, riding drake, scorpion, shadow hound, shark, skeletal bird of prey, skeletal constrictor, skeletal mount, skeletal servant, snake, terror bird, triceratops, tyrannosaurus, ulgrem-lurann, undead hand, vampiric animal, vulture, wolf, zombie, zombie carrion bird, zombie mount. Some of them are a little harder to find, as they are hidden in other entries, but it shouldn't be that hard
The chair is S tier, everything else is in the "not a walking chair, so why bother" tier.
Terror bird might be the best mechanically
@@justincampbell5987 skeletal mount is my personal pick, both a mount And gives you intimidating strike on any strike you'd like, amazing. Going to be really strong on a fighter/gunslinger
Chair or wolf. Done
One thing about the wand that makes it nice is you can use it in place of a MAP attack since it is a reflex save.
Regalia + Tome is a good combo, since Regalia gives you bonuses to following the Expert and Tome lets you become an Expert (and beyond) in any skill in the game.
In my experience playing the Thaum, the chalice is being underrated. The class is pretty squishy for a melee class, and those temp HP really start to add up. Because of how much you benefit from staying in combat and going toe-toe with monsters a lot meaner than you, I actually found myself swapping from weapon to chalice in the majority of fights
One god heal a combat is really nice. Free temp HP every turn is actually amazing. You get hit with persistent bleed? Sip from your chalice and ignore it. S tier.
I mean, I found myself taking Chalace cause my party didn't really have a reliable healer. Between the Chalace, battle medicine and scroll thaumaturgy, I've been the the closest thing the party's had to a healer.
I feel a cup that can heal you up a bit, a weapon that can slash on actions of enemies and a lore book for all that vital information is the perfect combination for a Thaumaturge.
19:35
I think I mentioned this on the previous Thaumaturge stream, but it's not Fighter accuracy because Thaumaturge can't max their attack stat. It would be more accurate to say that it's a Barbarian with 3rd level Heroism.
You should do more dual class videos. Dual class is such a great role variant. I’m curious about what your opinion is on these classes combined with some of the original classes.
Thaum is the most versatile martial making it easy to combine with anything and the psychic is the same for casters. No bad combos
@@deityofcrystals The minimum damage alone on fighter/thaum is terrifying
Btw, i always shocked that your name is Brogan, it's so much of an awesome fantasy name, lol
Nice work as usual.
However, you mentioned using the mirror to escape without provoking AoO. Creating a mirror image does have the manipulate trait, so it will provoke AoO if you are standing next to someone that has it. The self flanking idea is nice, if you can create an image opposite an opponent without provoking AoO, so can be risky, depending on what you are fighting.
I feel like the teleport can be used creatively, passing through bars, gates, etc., cuz if you can see there, you can be there. The ease with which characters with athletics can typically long jump after a few levels detracts from it slightly. Thoughts?
I’m fairly certain that regardless of the manipulate trait, the mirror bypasses AOO because it is a teleportation effect, which has higher priority than the manipulate trait when determining susceptibility to AOO
@@SerDerpish sadly it doesn’t work that way. The teleport itself may not provoke AoO, but the manipulate action leading up to the teleport does.
lantern intensify vulnerability only works after you use intensify vulnerability... It's not passive. Everything in there only works for a turn after you use intensif(so basically until start of your next turn)... Then goes back to regular effect.
Also mirror only triggers when you get attacked so you can't use it to deal extra damage without taking damage. Also using the mirror generates an opportunity attack due to manipulate trait.
*Potentially generates an opportunity attack*
Most enemies in PF2 still don't have one.
True fair enough.
@@novelenigmas yup every action but nonat said it's a way to free escape an AoO and no not really haha.
The regalia only nullifies flat-footed caused from flanking. Well "only" but still :D
Thaumaturge is so strong compared to some of the other classes. I wish Oracle and witch were given more bonkers stuff this. The Thaumaturge gets straight op buffs for nothing; meanwhile, Oracle gets an okay buff for literally dying.an they really need to rework or buff Oracle.
My new build for PFS is an Ancient Elf Thaumaturge with Gunslinger Dedication (from race) but am torn between Mirror or Weapon for the implement. The mirror can help me get around cover AC bonuses and to escape if needed, but the weapon gives the AoO (within 10ft) and the bonus to hit would lead to more fatal weapon crits.
an enemy has to be within 10 feet of you to trigger your weapon implement's reaction, which doesn't seem great for a gunslinger. I would definitely go with mirror.
@@unlimiTED69 The Way of the Drifter is a Pistol and Blade build. It has an awesome Initial Deed (free action at start of combat) which you can pickup at level 6 and helps you get close enough to use those reactions.
@@LordCyler I was actually trying to suggest that generally ranged strikers usually try to stay out of close quarters, not that it's hard to get into it. but if you're building a mixed melee/ranged this seems cool
Choose mirror
thanks NoNat!
Once again I seem to be the only one who loves the wand.
Who doesn't love shooting Fire out of a stick? I also feel that none of its abilities are useless. (like even the Mirror had one useless ability) I would have given the wand at least B tier. I think its better than the Bell since its generally going to do some damage (since it's a basic save), while the Bell could miss. (it only works on a failure) Also Unlike the bell the wand can be used against any target and not just your exploit vulnerability target.
My biggest issue with the wand is that it's the only implement that takes 2 actions to use, which can get in the way of the class's core features like activating Intensify Vulnerability. If you want to both move and recall knowledge in the same turn, your wand becomes unusable. I'd personally much rather have the bell, which only uses a reaction and let's me use all of my normal actions every turn.
@@novelenigmas The fact that it isn't an attack is one of it's saving graces IMO. works quite well with ranged weapons to allow for 2 "attacks" without any MAP
I hope when player core 2 comes out, they integrate some of the intensify vulnerability actions into their triggers. IE Talisman and Chalice let you strike as part of the intensify action.
Mirror adept ability seems so bad. It seems likely to damage allies and/or get you caught in a dangerous position. You don't choose when it triggers, it just happens when one of the images is damaged.
that along with triggering AoO and basically being a stride with 15ft for one action. def not S tier. The last ability makes up for the action tax, but I never count abilities bast lvl 15 anyways
The mirror makes me a bit bitter because it's so outrageously good that picking something else for flavor just feels like you're underoptimized
I don't think that's true. The mirror is solid, but there is an action economy tax and it leads to you taking more damage than you normally would. Being able to flank with yourself is great, but if you have melee teammates, you could just flank with them. The mirror is going to lead to you taking more damage and it's a tax on your actions on a class that is already taxed on actions and is squishy.
@@andrewpeli9019 yeah, it's a bit crunchy on the action economy, but it's also a free teleport. Combine Call Implement and the mirror and you can effectively never be trapped, surrounded, or stuck unless the DM goes well out of their way to isolate you >15 feet from anything useful
@@scottforsythe37 or he throws a bed sheet over the cage lol
Good job, Ray
Can't wait for a priest subclass tier list. Hope it will be long enough to cower both of them.
You mean cleric? 🤔
@@SerDerpish yep
How do you feel about the Wand implement on a Thamaturge who focuses on maxing Charisma and picks up scroll feats to be a fake caster?
I want to make a fleshwarp and I can't get both Cha and Str/Dex from my.ancestry.
That's exactly what I'm playing right now!
18 charisma, 16 dex, and throwing weapons. Plus scroll feats and scroll trickster archetype.
@@Nonat1s I figure the razzle dazzle of the Weapon is hard to resist, but that kind of character will have okayish damage and tons of utility out of combat so it's fine.
A lot of people in PFS play bruisers anyway.
A fun mirror exploit I found is that you can summon your mirror reflection a few inches off the ground. This will cause it to "fall". Since this is movement, the original version of you disappears. You can now teleport 15 ft with a single action instead of two.
Tecnically you can't do a few inches since you need to move. So you could say it's a free action to do a small jump or to move your hand and that seems a bit silly...
But it seems like a fine way to teleport 10 feet and fall 5 but not great since you limit the range...
Edit: My mistake... The when you move is justified later. You need to choose to move for the mirror to break so being pushed does not work or falling...
@@novelenigmas Tecnically both are you. So you would probably fall since you can't fly and did not take the fly action until the end of the turn.
ty ray
Can you effectively fly with the mirror? So every action you can summon it 15ft, what if you keep doing it in mid air to keep flying around? Are you able to take actions while falling in Pathfinder?
Nope, after ending an action in air you immediately fall unless the action says so. while falling I don't think you can take any actions except recations (unless you don't reach the ground in one turn)
🙏 Thanks Ray 🙏
It's a good thing this is the psychic subclass video, lol
I don’t think you can use Mirror to teleport on the same turn. It says that when you use it, you are in both places until the start of your next turn. So you could use it if you are t in combat, but if you’re fighting, you’d have to use it and then wait until the next turn to lose the copy of yourself. You can’t just cast it, do something , and then run away.
Except if you move: "When you move, you choose which square to move from, but the mirror effect ends "
Can you do this for ever class?
I tried to like the video…but the Paragon Weapon Thaumaturge interrupted it.
:D
Would a ranged Weapon Thaumaturge get opportunity attacks at range if their target moved or casted a spell?
If you are within 10 feet of the target, yes.
Thaumaturge is still behind fighter by 1, being a Cha class, but weapon is still rock solid, i agree.
Only half of the levels. This could mean (depending on the campaign) you could be behind the Fighter the entire campaign, or equal the entire campaign. At level 5 the Thaumaturge can increase Str to 18 while the Fighter can only increase to 19, so they could have the same bonus until level 10. Then again at 15 the when the Fighter could increase to 21, the Thaumaturge can increase to 20.
2:10
Starting off...
Dodododoo do doo, bout to make myself a thaumaturgeeee
Bot is fired, yes?
Yo wait, this is the Ray I KNOW
So I'm still working on it... but my first character is gonna be an Anadi Mirroraturge
Regelia plus book plus skilled human I want bonus to all skills ALL OF THEM!!!
I'm starting a new Thaum and never played one
Solution to ranged attack: Kitsune or Sprite
Tome would be better if Recall Knowledge wasn't so vaguely worded. C from me.
Why do you keep saying 2 actions for mirror? Am I missing something?
I'm probably talking about the teleportation. One action to conjure your mirror duplicate, and a second action to move which allows you to teleport to it.
@@Nonat1s But according to the text, you are in both places until the start of your next turn. So you can’t use it to make a duplicate 15 feet away, make that duplicate your real self, and then walk away.
You’d be in both spaces for a round and both you and your duplicate can be attacked. If that happens you take the damage regardless of which one was attacked.
@@Pseudowolf You're forgetting the text after that which says "When you move, you choose which square to move from, but the mirror effect ends"
So you can use an action to make the duplicate 15 ft away, move from the reflections spot since you are in both spaces, which then ends the duplicate effect.
@@darksilvarex No, I see what you are saying, but to me it reads that you are in both places until your next turn. THEN if you move, it ends and you can move from either spot. So if you use it, you are essentially forgoing moving anywhere else for that turn. I can see how it could be read the other way, though. I suppose it'll be down to GM interpretation and/or some errata to clarify it.
@@Pseudowolf I do agree it could definitely do with some clarification.
I read the "In both places until your next turn" as a timer for the effect, rather than a factual statement of what's happening. The reason i read it that way is because of the part at the bottom.
"Some events force you to determine which image is the real you, and then end the effect and cause your mirror self to disappear; 'this happens automatically at the start of your next turn'. It also happens if you choose to move out of your space. "
The key points i take are
1) ending the effect causes your mirror self to disappear
2) automatically ends start of turn, ie "You are treated as being in both spaces until the start of your next turn." When the effect would end and the mirror image disappears.
3) Also happens if you move. Heavily implying that if you move before your next turn it will end early and cause the image to disappear.
Because it automatically ends at the start of your next turn you couldn't ever move with it if you weren't allowed to move the turn you use it.
Chalice plus amulet is tanky as hell.
Bot, why are you not fired, its been 20+ minutes!?