1796 Light Cavalry Sabre Design and Weights
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ส.ค. 2024
- 1796 Light Cavalry Sabre Design and Weights
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Dude Alec Steele called you out, go get that collab when he finishes his viking sword and talk about it with him would love to hear your views on his work!
David Adams To the top with thee!
'It looks the business' the man asserted, as he waved a banana at me.
There is a possible scenario for a specific instance of a French objection to the 1796 LC sabre to have occurred. At the Battle of Benavente (1808), during the Corunna Campaign, there are eyewitness accounts of the 1796 cutting off French cavalrymen's arms cleanly - "like Berlin sausages" (some of the 'British' cavalry were King's German Legion hussars - hence the Berlin reference). At that battle the French commander, General Lefebvre-Desnouettes, was captured. He spent many months in captivity in England where he was given a great amount of freedom and was feted by society generally. He undoubtedly socialised with British officers to a considerable extent. Indeed, General Sir John Moore gave him a sword, just after his capture, so swords would have been a topic of conversation. If any French commander had both experience of the effects of the 1796 LC sabre and extensive opportunity to discuss it, it was Desnouettes.
Matt completely willingly gave his sword's measurements
Le Marchant is recorded as saying that the "blades of the Turks, Mamalukes, Moors and Hungarians [were] preferable to any other".
You said that the 1796 pattern was a good cutter but not exceptionally so? I just read on Wikipedia an account by an English Dragoon where he witnessed one of his countrymen delivering a blow through a French cavalry officer's brass helmet (maybe he was a Curassier) that cleanly cut through the helmet and down to the man's chin... That sounds pretty legendary to me.
Something you might find interesting, Matt, is that well after the 1796 Light Cavalry Sabre was phased out of use with the British Army that they (or copycats) were in use in the USA. Joseph Smith (of the Mormons) had one that was his sidearm as a Lieutenant General in the Nauvoo Legion, which was the local militia stood up in Nauvoo, Illinois, back in the day that militias were the norm. I actually have a picture of that sabre that I took at a museum in Salt Lake City. It's a 1796, but the stirrups were removed from the grip.
I bought myself one of these bad boys this week. Received the track and trace code today. I'm a little excited.
I'm curious. What was the decision-making process, within the militaries of the day, when it came to replacing a given pattern of sword? What were the factors in deciding to replace a sword that was already in service and how were designs selected for adoption?
When the swordsmanship of your troopers is derided by allies (an Austrian officer described it as "like chopping wood") and troopers are injuring themselves and their horses with their own swords on an unacceptable scale - as happened to the British cavalry in the Low Countries Campaign - then suggestions concerning replacing existing sword patterns are made in high places. ;) There was a board of 'general officers' put in place to examine the swords in use and possible replacements. John Le Marchant reported to this board, he had made extensive study of Austrian swords on campaign, and his suggestions were adopted by the board. He designed the 1796 LC sabre and it was initially tried out by the Horse Guards (Blues), who reported back favourably. Le Marchant wanted his curved sabre to be adopted by all the British cavalry, but the board insisted on straight swords for the heavies. It is highly likely that Le Marchant then suggested copying the Austrian pallasch pattern of 1769 - which became the British 1796 HC sword.
fashion mostly
Please a comparaison between the 1821 British light cav Vs 1822 French light cav swords :)
Maybe no one makes a faithful replica of the 1796 light cavalry saber because of the Geneva Convention.
It`s those darn frenchies fault, as usual.
CALL OF THE WILL MAN It was a simple joke, quite rude of you..
After discovering this old video, it’s clear why you decided to do your recent collaboration with Windlass.
Meanwhile, those issues of cutting power in proportion to weight, and effective cutting along the whole length of the blade, are important things to remember when evaluating the saber’s reputation, especially since you point out that other tools can cut as well or better, though perhaps without those unique characteristics.
As an American, I am absolutely jealous of Britain and its amazing history. Great weaponry too. I want to pick up the German 1872 version of this sword if I can afford it.
How about a video on the Heavy Cavalry sword?
I know you've done a quick one chatting about how Sharpe wound up with the weapon, but it would be nice to hear a little more about the Heavies, now that you've covered the Lights!
MidnighWolf I hope he makes one about the heavy pattern.
He made one brief one
I have a cold steel 1796 light cavalry modified by Lukas MG of Germany to handle more like the originals and it is a lightning-quick vicious cutter.
I read about that sword on myarmoury. I was wondering if I could ask how much he charged for that service? I know his own swords tend to be pretty pricey, so was wondering what he charged for the alteration.
Could you give us the link?
+turbografx16 he charged 300 usd I believe and due to all the hassle with getting the sword through customs and back to the us he stated publicly that he’s only willing to do it with european customers and mine was a one-time thing.
Ulf Lidsman myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=36161
Kyle Edwards Thanks! To anyone also interested in a reground 1796,. Arms & Armor in the US has also done so in the past.
Tiny correction: The Austro-Hungarian Monarchy didn't exist before 1867.
It was simply the Habsburg Empire :)
Awesome video on my favorite military saber
Matt, thanks so much for discussing the replica market for the 1796 sabre, or lack thereof. I own the Cold Steel model, but I tore off the hilt and replaced it with a tulwar hilt. It feels much more comfortable, but I would like to compare an original with this model. How can Cold Steel and other manufacturers screw this up? You can buy an original (more than one, actually) and reverse engineer one! There should be no excuses.
Yeah I just received my CS saber in the mail. Beautiful sword but way too heavy.
I've found that civilian fighting rifles tend to be heavier than military ones, mostly because people like to hang lots of gizmos on their guns (that end up breaking or being ripped off after a few hours of training). MilSpec doesn't mean tough or rugged, it means what the military wanted. In many cases milspec guns are like 2 star hotels. Cost is a big factor.
Your example of civilian ARs is not incorrect. A lot of the civilian ARs are lighter than military M16 variants.
The original M16 and M16A1 were very light coming at about 7 pounds loaded. A variety of changes took place over the years, most notably the barrel became much heavier. Firearm historians will tell you it was to reduce "wandering zero" when the barrels heated up but I was there and I can tell you with certainty that it was because soldiers were bending the barrels using them as prybars. Matt is quite right that soldiers don't treat government-issued equipment with the same care people bestow upon things they paid for themselves. Regardless, a modern M4 or clone (known in the shooting community as an M4gery) is now a bit over 9 pounds loaded. I kinda miss the lightness and quick handling of the original.
Great video, Matt! Germany even used some of their copies, the sabre 1811 "blücher sabre", in the first world war with rear line troops. Did the english army did something like this as well?
Confidence comes from assurance in decision making: thus a sword that does not lend itself primarily to either the cut or thrust lends much less confidence to the solider than a dedicated tool exceptional at one thing. This gives weapons like the P1796 LC it's legendary fame and popularity.
AWESOME! COGRATULATIONS FROM SPAIN !
There is something about that sword, it looks deliciously effective, and I now want one.
I'd love a video on Sharpe's sword
British Imperialist the heavy cav
He already did one entitled, "1796 Heavy Cav: Not a bad sword!" or some such.
Cold Steel, please send Matt one of your latest generation of the 1796 British Light Cavalry Sabre! I honestly believe that he would review it fairly, and that he might even be more generous toward it than you think! We all know that it's gonna be a little bit overweight, too thick in the foible, etc. This, of course, is because you've designed them to better tolerate the wear and tear of heavy use by the "backyard cutters", who don't always know what they're doing. But I still think it's a pretty good replica, certainly better than the ones from before(I forget precisely when) about 2013, or thereabouts. It is also superior to any of the other mass-produced renderings by far! Again, please send him one, I think there's a chance it could be in your interest! Select the nicest specimen you can find from your warehouse's shelf, put a nice keen edge on it, and send it off to him. Please!!!
Hi my saber is from 2012 production and it is not that bad 2.2 pounds with a point of balance at 6.5 inches from 7 to 2.5 mm of distal taper. It came a bit dull and had to sharpen it by hand because I do not have much experience with power tools. In kult of athena the taper is measured from 7 to 2.9 mm which is about the same as that from my old sword. The taper could be easily solved with sanding but it will certainly ruin the polish.
Hello I unhanged my old saber and measured finding that the blade is 32 3/4 inches long with a metric ruler and reaches the 33 inches when measured with a tape following the curvature of the blade. Now this replica is advertised as a 31 inch blade. The first thing I made with my sword after getting it delivered was cutting the box in which it came afterwards I measured it and memorized the dimensions. After watching some of the newer reviews describing it as a 31 inch blade it did not sounded as I recall. But since many years have passed I could not assured 100% the size of my sword. It seems that in 2014 Cold Steel redesigned the saber maybe for the worst. Only direct comparisions between older and newer models could tell.
Speaking of the AR15 vs M4 weight, Garand Thumb has a video where he compares the 2.
Great Video Matt! Could you make one about Polish saber types?
I just picked my manual and weapon (Roworth and 1796) for saber study. This video provides some information regarding the where why and who with this particular model of saber.
Do you think you can do introductory saber guide for people who "only do longsword and now want to expand into military saber."
Ghastly Gibbus if you look through his older videos he has some introductory videos on training saber, including some basic drills.
I have a 1796 (officer's version) that looks almost identical to the first one Matt pulled up. I swear if I didn't know better, I'd think it was the same sword -- an officer's version, with a hilt in great condition, leather and wire intact (no ears and horizontal rivet through the grip); with a blade in superb condition, totally unpitted, but which was, at some point in its life, overcleaned and had all the blue and gilt decoration removed (probably the blade was rusted black like the scabbard still is, and the blue and gilt went when that was cleaned off); and finally, right down to the first, or upper suspension ring being missing.
Hello Matt. I have just seen this video. Excellent as usual. I collect and shoot 19th century firearms and am a student of the Napoleonic Wars and armies. Though I have an interest in the early swords. The 1796 LCS certainly has a wide appeal, as it does to me. I recall, back in the 60's, visiting Apsley House, No.1 London, and seeing on display Wellington's sword worn on campaign. I recall that it had the characteristics of the 1796 and may indeed have been a copy but I was impressed by the width of the blade through its whole length. No doubt a butcher's blade. Perhaps closer to a continental type? Do we know the model of the sword or its derivation, accepting that it was, of course a private purchase? I guess it could have been a gift?
Thanks. Do keep up the good work. Compulsive watching.
That laugh at 4:25,,, lol 😂
I recently picked up a copy of Richard Marsden's book, Historical European Martial Arts and learned that you coined the acronym "HEMA." Small world, eh?
Can you please do one on all of the different sizes and weights of sabers. I went to the military museum in Paris and a lot of the sabers were monsters, why?
You can even find that myth in textbooks that are supposed to be good.
Nearly 200K subs!
In your opinion which is the superior melee weapon a sword, or a bayonet? A lot of people back in the 19th century seemed to think the bayonet was too unwieldy according to some accounts in swordsmen of the British empire.
IMHO they are kind of equal, just with different benefits to each other. The bayonet has a good reach and leverage advantage, but the bayonet and musket/rifle are pretty heavy and cumbersome. It is very different to a spear and people who have not held the real weight don't always appreciate that - a spear is long, has great leverage AND is light/quick. A bayonet+firearm is really heavy and quite slow.
The bayonet, albeit rubbish, has the added advantage of being attached to shooty-shooty sticks.
Yeah, it is a much better weapon for formation fighting just in that men with bayonets can clump up closer together without having to worry about slashing their comrades. So you could have 2-3 bayonets for every 1 swordsman since the swordsmen would have to spread out more. It is also easier to use at least to an extent so it makes sense to equip soldiers with them.
Infantry armed with bayonets (or pikes, spears, halberds, etc) were usually able to repel cavalry charges, as long as they were in the right formation. Whereas infantry armed with swords were generally not able to. Until firearms advanced sufficiently to render cavalry charges obsolete, the bayonet was a critical piece of the infantry soldiers’ equipment. Prior to the invention of bayonets, infantry without polearms needed to operate alongside pikemen, billmen or some equivalent to protect them from being overrun.
If I wanted a decent replica. Where can I get the blueprints?
AFAIK, the CS version is 200 heavier!
How were sabers and earlier swords sharpened by the soldiers using them? How frequently we're they sharpened while in a conflict?
What swords would artillery officers carry those days? I hear a lot about cavalry and sometimes infantry but I'm quite interested in artillery, which is apparently not as cool for most people. Was artillery considered just kind of infantry or their own kind?
In regards to the weight issue: The private trooper is the one who actually uses his weapon, the Rupert mainly being there to make sure the right people get stabbed and slashed.
The heavier version for enlistedman assumes that they have less training and need the extra weight to compensate. Cavalry also carried lances to use against other cavalry, and ground troops. Cavalry used lances in WW1. Officer swords tend to be lighter and weighted for fencing-ie fighting other officers.
Justin Kehn Lancers carried lances, as the title would have you believe. Hussars and most other light cavalry did not at this time or am I mistaken?
There is quite a lot of variation. There is no universal system for naming/armaments. Carrying a lance does not mean they would not have a sword. A well balanced sword would be wasted on someone who can not fence, so a cheap heavy chopped would be the way to go . It is important to remember that armies are often raised quickly, and sent into battle with little training.
Justin Kehn Apart from the British Army in general and the cavalry in particular. I’m very sorry but I’m not exactly sure what you are on about. This sword and others of the time were made for a professional military, not the 17’th century rabble you are describing.
Hi have a good day.. I must to say , that you have a very interesting channel.
I have a question.. do you know some of facts about a Saladin Sword ?
Is it was a wootz damascus steel ?
legends says that Sword was a sharpest Sword in the earth .
And another one question...
on your opinion,
is it possible to forge sword with a Diamond dust inside a steel ?
some of combination , between materials ?
Thank you Regards...
Matt, do you still have those measurements for the Danelli 1796 and if so could you share them?
What sword did this replace or what sword(s) was its predecessor? Specifically in the American revolution time period? I can't find this answer anywhere on the internet, the search only brings up umpteen thousand articles on this sword (and don't mention what I'm looking for). Anyone know?
1788 pattern light cavalry sabre? I think.
1759 Light Dragoon sabre? Not the immediate predecessor but probably around in the Revolution.
Insofar as I'm aware, the first patterns for cavalry swords/sabres in British use were set in 1788. These were, perhaps unsurprisingly, the 1788 Pattern Heavy Cavalry Troopers Sword, and the 1788 Pattern Light Cavalry Troopers Sabre. Before this point, while certain types and styles of sword may have come into and out of fashion (and indeed price point), swords were not standardised. The 1796 Light Cavalry Sabre did replace the 1788 pattern (and the resemblance is clear), but prior to that it's whatever you could get hold of, or if you had the money, whatever you chose as a matter of preference.
It replaced the Pattern 1788 LC sword
Black fencer makes a 1796 infantry officers sabre and a light cavalry 1796 sabre and a heavy cavalry 1796 sword and a 1821 sabre they are synthetic but I've heard that they handle pretty close to the originals. it was enough to convince me to get the infantry officers sabre.
Matt what do you think about the Napoleonic era French Dragoon sword ?
Could someone could clarify Hutton text about sharpening, as seen in "The Cavalry Swordman" of 1867 (in what dirrection goes the serrations ???) :
...The edge best suited to our purpose is one of a slightly serrated natalure, put on with a fine steel file-the file being applied diagonally from halt to point; the effect of such an application of the file will be to form a fairly keen edge, composed of a set of tiny sawlike teeth, set slightly back wards from point to hilt, like the teeth in a shark's mouth."...
How were the Woolley production swords? My HC sword is a Woolley and has a wonderful temper.
Hi...Newbie here. Did you clean that sabre or did you buy it in that condition? Thank's in advance......
can you do a video of non metal weapon and armor?just like the skallagrim video with more information
Dear Matt: I need to ask you a kind of tricky question. We are in a debate with some pals about Rifle Cannons found cutted by Ligth Cavalry Sabre like the Pattern 1796 o it´s prussian version after the Battle of Maipo during South America Revolutionary wars. Is it a myth or is it posible? Many thanks in advance and kind regards from Argentina.
I like how you say phalash.
In "Mask of Zorro" movie was the sabre training Authentic?
what do you think of the handfeel of blackfencer's synthetic replica of these?
And it made the cover of the 1966 James Clavell novel Tai-Pan, set in Hong Kong area in the 1840s.
I so want a quality 1786!
On your way to 200K subscribers :)
I would love a example for cutting drills
I don`t fancy the 1796 as much on estetichal grounds. They look to chunky and curved for my taste. the nicest looking saber in my eyes is the 1821 pattern ones. But with a more evolved guard than the 3 bar hilt. the infantry officer swords hit the sweet spot.
There is just not perfect sword. Perfect weapon. It's a physical universe something has to be sacrificed to power up another aspect of the shape.
Sir, I've been dying to know for a very long time. A friend of mine has a Katana with a modified hilt. It's curved like a 17th century pistol (if that makes sense to you?)he says it modifys the angle of attack which means the blade is not where it's supposed to be when cutting. Does this make ANY sense to you at all? Is there a surprise advantage to this type of hilt?
It does to a smal, degree. Kind of like Count Dookus lightsaber. Or certain kinds of filipino swords....
браво. супер.
Do you have an Instagram? Photos of new acquisitions and teasers for future content or swords for sale would go over well on Instagram. You can easily set one up through FB...
My favorite Super Dry shill
For those who are interested, we actually uploaded a couple models of 1796 Light Cavalry Sabers from the collection at The Oakeshott Institute which you can find here: skfb.ly/6zY8I and here: skfb.ly/6zUUQ . They provide a nice opportunity for those who may have never had the chance to inspect or handle an original piece.
Matt
Is there are reliable source behind the well trodden tale about a trooper delivering a dying blow with his 1796 which cleaved a French cavalryman's helmeted head in two?
Ive seen it punted about online, including that laughable source of "historical" info Wikipedia but havent yet found an original or more reliable source for the tale.
My aged old dad's comments on my 1796 when I let him handle it....."Jesus christ! Makes you shiver doesnt it?" (meaning imagining the wounds it could cause).
The well-quoted incident came from Farmer & Gleig, The Adventures of a Light Dragoon in the Napoleonic Wars. Gleig, who was at Waterloo, said he saw with his own eyes that a fellow trooper named Wilson had slew a French cuirassier officer by cutting through his helmet. Wilson was said to have been mortally wounded by the French officer an instant before with a thrust through the heart. Prof. John Keegan accepted this account as reliable.
Unless the helmet was leather or decorative metal, there is no way. Even with modern steel, you would need an axe or heavy pole arm to cleave a helmet. Even then, edge alignment would have to be perfect with a curved helm. Sounds like the French version of a "Pecos Bill" story.
@@justin1730 Possibly the helmet bowl was made by joining the two halves together, and the weld was defective. So a very powerful blow could possibly cause the weld to fail.
The helmet was brass, brass, brass, brass. French dragoons wore brass helmets. The Wikipedia1796 LC sabre article has the incident in quotations and the source is fully cited. Wikipedia articles, IF they have a good level of citation to respectable sources, are quite reliable. The quotation from Gleig/Farmer even says "Brass helmet" - try reading rather than skimming.
Yes. These were brass helmets. And the cut was clearly thought of as something extraordinary. Gleig wrote: "It was the most tremendous blow I ever saw struck, and both he who gave, and his opponent who received it, dropped dead together. The brass helmet was afterwards examined by order of the French officer, who, as well as myself, was astonished at the exploit..."
I imagine the tiger on the shirt saying "GET OUT!".
What is a superdry tiger lol?
taxidermy
The opposite of a quite wet tiger
I'm roflmao I promise.
I love the blade shape, not a fan of the hilt style. I'd quite like one with a 3 bar hilt or maybe a Scottish style baskethilt.
Lightbearer there are Indian cavalry regiment swords that are a 1796 blade with the 1821 three bar hilt.
You might be throwing out the balance doing that. You won’t cut as well with that much weight in the hilt.
Sorry for being a pedant but at this point There was no austro-hungarian Empire, or a austrian Empire for that matter. There was the HRE but since it was ruled by the austrian habsburgs since forever they were referred to as "austrians"
You mention the replica's of this sword from companies like Cold Steel, etc. are not very good. Are there any other sabers 1860 US, or 1815 french, etc. which do have good replica's from any company? I would love to purchase a good replica saber as a gift, but I would want it to be quality.
Windlass do a good m1860
$440 bucks?? I can buy a sword for that much! Is this book out of print?
John Gaspard Le Marchant was from a Guernsey family .Not Jersey. Regards Tony Le Marchant.
Do you know any company’s that make a reproduction of this sword which is strong enough to sparr with?
The whole issue is the replicas are too thick at the foible, too thin at the forte. That's a general problem with almost all replicas.
It's easier to have a bunch of semi-trained people grinding out blades of 3/16" bar stock than have trained makers start with 3/8" stock and forge/grind the taper to about 1/10" thick before the tip.
LIKE!
I always thought weapons now days have had a shift. A civilian rifle, even AR-15 would be heavier to give better accuracy since the weight isn't a concern for them, whereas for soldiers weight is very important since combat today is generally more mobile within combat. And also, having "less" durable parts isn't always a bad thing if the part is also meant to be modular and cheaply produced since they could be cheaper replaced when damaged than making the original part robust enough to avoid that damage.
I think you thinking of the weight of the weapon compared the amount of accessories Civilians compared to military give to their rifles. Military tend to forgo accessories, because extreme accuracy isn't thing unless your designated marksmen or sniper, and they are trained to be able to do that with irons because irons aren't sensitive. Civilians like to accessorize the hell out of their guns to show and make shooting easier
@@PJDAltamirus0425 I didn't think of that, good point. But aren't the rifles military competition teams use heavier than their combat versions because they put in sturdier components for better precision?
Scojo
They're heavier mostly because of the barrel. With modern long arms, you can have a barrel with peak first shot accuracy that loses tolerance as it heats up with every subsequent shot, or you can have a (usually much lighter) barrel that sort of walks in its accuracy after a few rounds. Most military carbines have the second type installed, because in an armed engagement it's more important that your rifle be relatively accurate over an extended period of use than super accurate one time, while hunters and sharp shooters prefer the first, because sometimes you don't get a second shot.
To kind of get around this, some shooters use a third type of heavy barrel, usually called a bull barrel, that theoretically has enough mass to eat large amounts of heat while maintaining the rigidity necessary for sustained accuracy. The downside is that bull barrels are usually much more expensive than regular or pencil barrels, and they add quite a lot of weight to the weapon. It should also be noted that on the civilian market, the difference between ultra light pencil barrels and wicked heavy bull barrels is only as broad as your bank account, especially with the sudden popularity of the ar-15 platform among all manner of sportsmen.
That's a mean chopper, alright.
Too bad there are few decent replicas, can't afford an antique one... :(
Broad and thin light cutter? A late 18th century sword that acts like a falchion?
I find your pronunciation of Oudh or Avadh very funny. I mean no disrespect, it was just funny. By the way, it's understandable why this sword was popular among Indian troops, since it's close to a tulwar.
Due to horrific wounds, but mortors, mines and cannister shot no issues there lol
I wonder what English companies made Confederate Calvary Sabers during the American Civil War?
Maybe it's popularity at the time came from the 1788 Pattern British Light Cavalry Trooper's Sword being somewhat ugly and the romantic appeal of the underdog officers might have felt seeing the people of the Balkans resisting the ottoman onslaught with similar swords.
Either way I've been waiting for Cold Steel to make a polypropylene "trainer" of this design cause it will surely handle better than their "replica" and it'd be fun to have an indestructible 1796LCS shaped bludgeon to beat stuff with.
If anybody has one yo sell, drop me a line please...
sword nerds!
Why does Matt have so much superdry
if God used a sword it'd be a 1796 light cavalry sabre
No, a dane axe with a katana hilt and an unscrewable pommel.
*Relevant Comment*
INTRIGUING REPLY
AMAZING ANSWER
UNCALLED FOR/UNNESSARY ABUSE!
Matt, thats not fucking sword! Its sabre! Only if sabre is a subspecies of sword, which it isn´t, just as grossmesser isn´t a sword.
I don't know what your native language is, but in English a sabre is a type of sword. So is a falchion.
You´re right, my native language isn´t English, nor Ameringlish. But in some countries east of Channel the categorization of edged weapons is thus: straight blade + straight hilt = sword; curved blade + curved ("pistol") hilt = sabre; straight blade + curved hilt = pala (in Czech "palaš"). Nice evening and thank you for your videos.
You NEVER tell the correct distal taper on a sword.
Maybe if you provided more info about distal taper, more good replicas would be made.
why cant people just STOP talking about those stupid lightsab-
**actually reads the title**
oh. oooooooooooh.
My mistake. Don´t mind me.
Third!!!! PRAISE ME
Gilded Society praise
I don't much like the look, personally