Gaelic History: Five Things We Know
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ก.ย. 2024
- This video is a continuation of my last video. It looks at five important points about Gaelic History in Ireland. 1 Gaelic Ireland was politically divided but culturally unified. 2 The seductiveness of Gaelic culture. 3 The Dynamism of Gaelic Ireland. 4 Gaelic Septs and Lordships. 5 Could Gaelic Ireland have survived - the Nine Years War
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#irishhistory #Gaelic #medieval #Ireland #nineyearswar #GaelicHistory #history
References
Canning, Ruth, The Old English in Early Modern Ireland: The Palesmen and the Nine Years' War, 1594-1603.
Morgan, H., (ed.) The Battle of Kinsale
Morgan, Hiram. Tyrone’s Rebellion
McCavitt, John The Flight of the Earls
McGurk. The Elizabethan Conquest of Ireland
Nicholls, K.W. Gaelic & Gaelicised Ireland in the Middle Ages
O’Neill, James. The Nine Years War
Simms, Katherine, From Kings to Warlords
Stout, Matthew, Early Medieval Ireland 431 - 1169
Your best so far i`m listening again
Thanks!!! And I recorded the audio while sick as a dog (had to re-record parts). Took forever, cause I kept coughing. But it seems to have been worth it. Next video I will record while drunk to see what happens :-)
@@forasfeasa Drink up. Slainte/Cheers😆
@@waynemcauliffe-fv5yf It is only 10.44 here. I never drink so early... have to wait till 11.15 hahahaha
@@forasfeasa I drink at all times mate. It`s 7.48 PM here and i`ll be drinking before 8 again tomorrow morn
@@forasfeasa Have a Irish coffee ha ha
Great stuff mate. I`ll put this on Clans and Dynasties later
Thanks mate!!!!!
@@forasfeasa Thankyou
@@waynemcauliffe-fv5yf YOu're very welcome!!!
These are briliiant, watched this and your other five things video so far, absolutely fascinating stuff in to history I should know more about! Thank you for these.
Thanks for your lovely comment. Glad you liked it!
@@forasfeasa🙏❤️☝️ extremely very interesting, very relevant still to this day . very well presented , and researched
@@jesusislukeskywalker4294 Thanks again!
These videos are so well done!
Thank you very much! Glad you like them!
the “known knowns” ☝️ great reacts video 👍🏻 you’re a legend yourself buddy 🚬🤠
Thanks...
Would not quite agree that Gaelic culture ended with the Gaelic as a political force. The culture continued and evolved, even if it was on life support. It didn't really die until the famines
I understand what you are saying. Maybe I should clarify it a little. After about 1660 - and certainly by the time of 1690 - there is no longer a distinct Gaelic people. Nor do the Old English really exist. They have been replaced by a new category (catholic) Irish. Interestingly the Irish word for Irish (Éireannach) only dates back to the 1620s. Of course, Gaelic culture kept going, as poets and others struggled to find a role for themselves in the new Ireland they found themselves in (and producing magnificent poetry). Though now it was Irish or Irish language culture to an extent. The famine was a death blow.
To say that Gaelic culture is dead is to look upon it as an outsider.Gaels are still very much alive creating their own distinct literature ,poetry and music. Many Scottish and Irish still feel they have more in common with each other than with the English speakers of their countries. The fact that they live within juristictions surrounded by English institutions and culture doesnt mean they no longer exist.
@@michaelroche6181 I don't say that Gaelic culture is dead. What is gone is Gaelic Ireland in terms of a political/social/military/economic structure and in terms of a group of people identifying as Gaelic. This was destroyed in the first half of the seventeenth century. Gaelic culture still exists, but obviously it has changed a lot since then. The irish word for Irish (Eireannach) was coined in the 1620s, and in 1690 Gaelic irish and Old English had been replaced by Catholic Irish. Gaelic culture is still very much alive, but not the structures which produced Gaelic culture of the 15th and 16th centuries (and earlier), such as political structures, bardic poetry, land holding, lordships, political groups etc.
Superb, comprehensive and cogent.
To follow your last question: Could Gaelic Ireland have survived the Nine Years' War had Kinsale been won:
- Elizabeth died two weeks before Mountjoy offered good terms to O'Neill and O'Donnell at Mellifont; the Irish leaders were unaware of her death and not signing might have bought them considerable time to enter more negotiations with James I
- on the other hand James I was very anti-Gael in Scotland and was an Anglo Scottish king with no sympathy or understanding of the Catholic Irish position
- having said that, IF Kinsale had been won and IF the Irish had maintained some autonomy until James' death in 1625 then Ireland would probably have gained the opportunity to eject the English in the Pale and develop a fully independent polity, given Charles I's issues with parliament, followed by the Civil War, the Commonwealth, the Restoration, the Glorious Revolution and England's involvement in continental wars in the early 18th century.
There's a strong argument to say that Ireland could have survived until the mid 18th century, but following the 7 Years' War England would undoubtedly have invaded and conquered once again... (unless France did so first; would Irish people prefer speaking English or French today? ",).
Again speculating, if Mountjoy had been defeated at Kinsale with O'Neill gaining a titular Irish crown, he would probably have faced considerable and possibly effective opposition from the O'Briens of Thomond and certainly the Butlers of Ormond, Chichester, etc.
Having England on Ireland's eastern flank probably demonstrates one of history's imperatives... the more powerful will always attempt to surpress smaller neighbours (yes... I'm looking at you, Russia and Israel 👎)
Thank you very much @AnBreadanFeasa. Great points
1 O'Neill got a good deal at Mellifont. However, he was abandoned by the Spanish in the Treaty they made with James a few months later. If O'Neill had been undefeated at this time, the Spaniards may well have put in clauses into the Treaty about Catholicism in Ireland. They would have been in a stronger position as they might still have had troops in Ireland
2 I am not sure about full independence. I think there would have been a state still under the English monarch, but much more autonomous, so that government officials would have been Old English or Gaelic. A reworking/strenghtening of the Old English state than the colonial one that followed
3 This would have impacted on English history. It might have served as a check on tensions between parliament and crown, but at some stage some sort of conflict would probably have arisen.
4 Ironically given the autocratic and centralising tendencies of the Stuarts, a strong autonomous Ireland would have helped them, probably avoiding the Wars of the Three Kingdoms and allowing the dynasty last longer. But would they have been able to understand this benefit?
5 I don't think O'Neill would ever have become king, he renounced this option on a number of occasions, and it would have been unacceptable to the Old English lords. However, victory at Kinsale could have led to someone from the Spanish house of Hapsburg being made king. This is unlikely, but sounds like a great alternative history novel....
6 I completely agree with your last point. We could also throw in the example of England and Scotland - Edward I you are not escaping this one!
Very interesting, thank you. I have developed a newly discovered interest in Irish History after just reading Colm Lennon's excellent Ireland in the 16th Century. I would like to go around the country visiting old buildings and ruins this summer. Could you recommend any resource that lays out all the noteworthy sites of interest? Thanks.
Hi Martin, the best resource is the Historic Environment Viewer ( heritagedata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=0c9eb9575b544081b0d296436d8f60f8 ) or just google Historic Environment Viewer. I couldn't make my videos without this, as it maps all the historical stuff in the country. It is very easy to use. The problem is that there is so much stuff on it, it is easy to get lost. A site I like to use as well is Megalithic Ireland www.megalithicireland.com/ This goes well beyond the megalithic period and includes castles and the like. It is divided by counties. It might be a good way of finding some initial period. A third and old fashioned way is a trip to the library. There are archaeological surveys for most parts of Ireland, often on a county or region basis. These are also a good starting point - as are other local archaeological books. I used the survey of Iveragh a lot, but I have a similar book for Dun Laoghaire, which is also great. Hope this helps!
@@forasfeasa Ah, that's brilliant altogether, just what I was looking for. Thanks so much. 👍
@@martinrea8548 You are very welcome. Enjoy your rambling during the Summer!
@@forasfeasa thanks. Hopefully we will have a summer. I want to go around on my motorbike. I read that Gerald of Wales Topography of Ireland the other day. Some bizarre stuff in that, women mating with goats and barnacle geese growing on bits of washed up timber. Still, interesting stuff. I've subscribed to your channel and will binge over the next few days. Best wishes from Cork, Martin 👍
@@martinrea8548 Gerald of Wales is more propaganda than anything else. Worth reading though considering it was written 800 years ago. Living in Cork, you have lots of stuff, from stone circles to castles, to more modern stuff that you can explore on your bike! (Once it is not raining....!!) Enjoy yourself Martin
Very interesting that. Thank you, nicely done.
I thought of a little (hopefully) constructive criticism that may or may not be of any use to you... Being that you convey so much of information in these videos (which is by no means a bad thing) I found myself wanting more pauses in the between sentences/paragraphs/topics, to digest what has just been said. Just a pause the time of a deep breath (2 or 3 seconds ish) to separate points in a subject. I think that would help the listener take things in as you go.
Maybe a stronger break between main topics to separate things and refocus too - could play your intro tune or something of the sort, or a cut-away shot with some bird song or whatever just to give a moment to redirect concentration.
Obviously just be speaking for myself there but I think little pauses like that, in the reading in general and larger ones as separators would strengthen it, make it sit more comfortably, "no rush". Aye.
Not a complaint by any means, you read beautifully, just said from struggling to take it all in at moments.
Thanks for the feedback, which is always difficult. This was a difficult video to do. In part because I could have said so much. I wrote a lot, recorded and discovered I had spoken for over 35 minutes. I often do space things out, but as it was so long, I was doing the opposite now. I think I need to be better organised :-) Normally when I video a site, I go and visit the place, and film it. At the same time putting a sort of script in my head. This and the last video were different - which is good. Your comment is good in another way, as it helps fight my fear of silence. IN other words, leaving longer gaps in the videos :-)
I am not sure it this comes across, but it must towards the end, but I have been sick all week with a cold/flu/bug... I re-recorded some parts, but listening tonight there were a couple of points where I sound sick!!!
@@forasfeasa I didn't hear the sickness at all.
Aye, I was, by the way listening then thinking: "What can I find that he could improve on?" ...Rather than anything bad. I just thought that might be a simple thing that might have a big effect overall - separation. That fear of going slow... Brings to mind one of the best pieces of advice I had when working on the stage - "If you feel you're going too slow and losing the energy - SLOW DOWN." ...It really works... cause the faster one goes the less expression and intensity comes often, whereas when one slows down there's time to note all the impactful stuff before it's spoken so it comes through in the intonation and all the rest much stronger and that carries to the listener... at least, that's my take on it.
Again, just said cause I know meaningful feedback is hard to come by on YT and that can be frustrating when so many hours are put into making these vids. 🤓
@@JesseP.Watson That is great advice. I am not sure if it would have made sense to me when I was younger, it does now! And yes good, meaningful advice is hard to come by. I really welcome yours! Go raibh maith agut, a chara :-)
@@forasfeasa Sásta a bheith ar fónamh. Coinnigh ort ag coinneáil ort! (... Tá mothú agam go ndéanfaidh Google praiseach de sin a aistriú.)
The O'Connor Kerry and the Fitzgeralds of Glin were intermarried ,the O'Connor probably needed allies against the ever intruding Fitzmaurice ,Stacks and McElligots.
I have a feeling that in the 1590s O'Connor Kerry and Fitzmaurice were related. Both were important allies of Hugh O'Neill in the later parts of the NIne Years War. There is a book by Martin Moore on the Fitzmaurices at this period called Deeds Not Words. it is worth a read. I think it is available from the writers centre in Listowel
@forasfeasa They'd have definitely been on the side of O'Neill but that would be it ,they were fighting each other at Lixnaw in 1568 and the McElligots of Galey ( Drombeg castle)were clashing with O'Connor over cattle raiding in the 1570s
@@Dhhhhj27 Yes, they were. It just goes the show what happened in Kerry after the downfall of the Earl of Desmond, as well as highlighting the skill of Hugh O'Neill in getting Fitzmaurice, O'Connor Kerry, and the Knight of Glin to be on the same side! (I am not sure about Stack/McElligots in this period)
@forasfeasa The Stacks were under the Fitzmaurice as were the Galey McElligotts different than the McElligotts east of Tralee who were more prominent and had several castles including one significant one which no longer exists
@@Dhhhhj27 Thanks! Speaking of castles, apart from Listowel and Carrickafoyle, what are the best castles in North Kerry to visit and/or film? (I'm trying to make a list for during the Summer.)
I really like the way you present weĺl-evidenced history and avoid speculation or dubious claims. I'd love to see something about the ways in which the gaels were influenced cultural mores thar were probably imported from the celts of mitteleuropa and the aspects of gaelic culture that were retained. For example, the vocabulary of Gaeilge has a lot of near cognates in celtic and proto-celtic languages, but the grammar shares similarities with Asian languages, such as the progressive present tense in Northern Chinese
Thanks for your interesting comments. What you are proposing sounds very interesting, but it also looks like a doctoral project! :-) Maybe one day, but I would have to do some serious reading in linguistics before attempting anything like that. I really would not feel comfortable discussing similarities of the Irish language with Asian ones I know nothing about... but maybe one day!
@forasfeasa sorry, I meant the linguistic aspect as an example of where there are clearly influencess that the irish took, ultimately, from the Austruan and Czech celts, but where Irish has retained a non-celtic characterr in the grammar (such as tenses and numbering when counting objects vs.counting mathematically etc),. I would expect that there would also be a lot of legislative, religious/mythological, political, and artistic ideas that we would have adopted from interactions with celtic influenced peoples, but also significant differences in their practice that may be more traditionally Gaelic Irish.
@@narwhol No need to apologise. What you are writing about is fascinating. It is getting me interesting, but I am weak at linguistics. Any suggestions of some reading in this area? :-)
@forasfeasa These were just observations from when I learned to speak Chinese. Peculiarities that I had thought of as uniquely Gaelic, such as present progressive tense, changing the word for the number two when counting objects (for no apparent reason), having no exact translation for "yes" or "no", (although, níl in Irish and bu in Chinese do come close to being a direct translation for "no"), and various others that appeared in both Gaelige and Mandarin. I don't know very much of Gaeilge, but of the various European languages that I either speak or have a smattering, it was the only language that seemed to have strange parallels in Mandarin. I think Mandarin originates in dongbei (northeast China), or at least, the people of those provinces tell me that theirs is the purest form of Mandarin. That area has a lot of turanistic people, Tungusic, Siberian, Mongol, etc. So, if there is a link, as opposed to coincidence, then it's possible that similar language influences were at play in the Iranian populations of the nearby steppes and that it reached Ireland via that population that was found to have arrived in Ireland from the Eastern Ukraine, Southern Russia, and Northern Kazakhstan area. I haven't seen any writings about it, but after a quick Google search, I found a few ideas about the grammar of Gaeilge being more similar to Afro-Asiatic languages (which I assume to mean pre-Arabic near East and North Africa), such as this www.academia.edu/44204309/%C3%89rainn_An_Afro_Asiatic_Language_of_Ancient_Ireland as well as this paper that seems to suggest that the basis of the language had arrived in Ireland before celtic influences arrived www.academia.edu/54285904/Irish_language_before_Celts_Colonisation_or_Christianity
@@narwhol Thank you, so very interesting reading there. No just the question of finding time to read!
Are Irish considered Gaelic or Celtic? Is that the same thing? Why is bostons basketball team the celts?
The Irish considered themselves Gaelic. The Irish language is part of the Celtic family of languages and in nineteenth century after the birth of romanticism and nationalism, the Irish became Celts. However, Celtic has now become to mean a lot of things. Essentially Celtic is a large linguistic and cultural category. The Gaelic Irish spoke a Celtic language, in a way they were Celtic, but Gaelic is a better category.
@@forasfeasa thank you
@@flintliddon You're welcome
slainte,
the last kings of ireland, were not in the time of the lord of ireland ,...henry II or the norman conquest..
they were in 1700's...
the gentry and nobility, families like o brien, ma carthy etc...
were descendants of gaelic kings...
big shock or suprise,
some of brian boru, descenants in the female line , via his daughter...
go into the royal house of gwynedd in wales..
and many events and incidents are recorded in the brut tywysogion.., the chronicles of the princes
relating to ireland and the gaelic kings...
as for the cambro normans, they made a impact on gaelic history,
the ancestor of the fitzgeralds of kildare...
was prince rhys ap tewdar, the same one of the tudor dynasty..
ironic, as the *de facto kings of ireland in all but name*
had a turblent and uneasy relationship with the tudors..
especially their treatment of gaelic language, culture and noble familes...
Shortly after Henry II there were no more kings in Ireland. However, the semi autonomous lordships lasted till 1603. However, the O'Briens and MacCarthys who lasted till 1700 were heavily Anglicised/ The Earl of Thomond played an important role in Kinsale and the destruction of Gaelic Ireland. His descendants were part of the British establishment till Irish establishment. Indeed, Elizabeth II claimed descent from Brian Boru!
The Fitzgeralds of Kildare were for a long period the most powerful noble family in Ireland. However, it is a bit of a jump to call them de facto kings, as this brings things to a more complicated level. Nonetheless, they were much better at governing ireland than anything that came after under the Tudors or Stuarts.
A large percentage of the higher nobility were related to the extended royal family, 'one big club and your not in it'. comes to mind.
@@Mark-he8kc The higher nobility all over Europe were inter-related. Something which got worse over time. (Queen Victoria, the Kaiser, and the Czar were all closely connected)
@@forasfeasa i get your point, henry 2 was the de facto king of ireland as its lord, and the normans claimed even the pope blessed their conquest...
*geraldus cambrensis, or gerald of wales, is a very biased & unreliable source, as he was of norman nobility and some welsh ancestery..., he also fails too mention,
the bishop of llandaff feud over
lands, with the normans... or even the birth of the celtic church, before norman times...let alone the sacred hill of tara...
the gaelic, have de jure , *gaelic kings, or those descendants of original kings & princes...who were part of the *flight of the earls* , during tudor times...,
its also true that henry 8th was *king of only a small area of ireland* as far as gaelic peoples were concerned ,he was as much a *foreign overlord as the original normans*...
even his second wife, queen ann boleyn via the anglo -normans *butlers* had some mixed irish -norman ancestry..
the o briens and others, were forced to swear allegiance to henry 8th... , the earls of kildare...even later had a (gaelic revolt*) or in their opinion,
removing a english gobshite overlord as king, who had no claim via any ancestry too be irish let alone
ruler of ireland, possibly also was excommunicated and later revoked, not long after his *joke claim to be KING OF IRELAND*,...
were most gaelic nobility, would be forced to swear loyalty, let alone be seen as supreme head of the anglo catholic church...
the english history of ireland is almost universally known,
its the views, opinions and history of the *medieval gaelic ireland*, the feuding royal, noblity and gentry that are more intresting..., looking at the abbeys, castles, manors and lands....
the butler V fitzgerald feud etc...
@@forasfeasa also prince edward bruce, the brother of king robert the bruce,
was aknowledged by most of europe...
except england as
*gaelic high king of ireland*,
also as mentioned in the brut tywysogion,
or chronicle of the welsh princes.,
after the period of HENRY II...,
of course the *english crown and kings* ,
viewed themselves as masters of wales, scotland & ireland... however, in reality...that is anything but true...
you must research,. and look at other sources, to have comparison...in france,spain and holy roman empire...
the view outside of england./ about medieval ireland....