In fact there was an American pilot that downed 4 Migs in the same dogfight when Migs attacked him. He landed his Panther full of holes but still flyable. That's why during WWII Grumman was called ironwork.
@@bong4538 Not sure if you are only telling your personal story here or if you are trying to tell me that I was cunfusing the Phantom with the Corsair. But if so, then no, I actually mean the Corsair
The F-86 also had a flying tail which made it handle better in the trans-sonic region whereas the MiG-15 had a tradtional horizontal stabiliser and elevator arrangement.
This is true! Also, having the horizontal stabilizer and elevator at the top of the tail was a design misconception that caused a lot of trouble over time. The F-104 had one. There is a danger of the main wing blocking out the airflow over the tail during certain kinds of stalls, creating a severe loss of control. The British airliner, the BAC-111 had a "T" tail, and their "answer" to the problem was to have a stick shaker that would warn the pilots when they were about to get into trouble. That's a crude "fix" at best. The best place for the tail surfaces, preferably a flying tail, was low on the fuselage, but the Russians were copying a lot of data from the WWII Germans and, for once, the Germans got it wrong. The transonic handling qualities of the Mig-15 were shaky at best. For all of that, it had a lot of good qualities too.
That is true, but, as ever, it is more complicated than that. The first model F-86A's didn't have the flying tail. They had conventional tails with elevators on the back. 500+ built. It was the "E" model that switched to the all flying tail where the fin as a whole moves. 450 built, and then the "F" model as well, and that was the majority with over 2200 built.
Interesting how people say the Me-262 was the superior aircraft over Allied jets because it had axial flow engines of the future but ignore the fact that the F-86 had an axial flow engine while the Mig-15 had a radial flow engine.
You missed a little bit of interesting (and facepalming) information on the Russians getting the Nene. Aside from little things like having shoes with special soles when they were given a tour of the plant that made them (picking up metal shavings for material analysis,) the British had them promise they'd only use the engines for civil use. To which the Russians, of course, went "Da, da, of course, we promise!" ... and promptly shoved it in fighter aircraft.
The F-86 Sabre would have much better destructive firepower if it had been armed with four or six 20 mm cannons instead of the six .50 cal machine guns. The USAF learned its lessons after the Korean War and armed the newer F-86Ds and F-86Hs and the later F-100s with 20 mm cannons.
I’ve lived in Washington my entire life but I still haven’t been to the museum of flight yet. I can see the first 747 parked outside when I drive by on the freeway. I need to go soon.
Locals rarely visit the touristy stuff of their own town. I spent a few months in Orlando (back in the 90s) and I couldn't find anyone that was up to go to Disney.
mig guns harder for pilots to aim, but hit a lot harder when they landed. sabre had better ballistics, lower caliber. its a classic 6 in one hand situation.
A fair fight as far as equipment, but it's the pilot that counts in the end. With that said, I knew a couple of retired Air Force fighter pilots who said that the F 86 was the sweetest flying plane they had ever flown.
Hmmm. He concludes the major difference between the two was in the mid and later Korean war the F86 used more experienced pilots. In the beginning, the Russians did. So....that's not really a reason to conclude the F86 was that much better.
Yeah, I was going to say the same thing when I saw your comment. The conclusion about which air raft was better was due to pilot skill rather than the characteristics that distinguished the airplanes.
The last MiG-15 pilot to be shot down in the Korean War was, by the Russians' own admission, a Russian pilot. Per standing orders, he committed suicide to avoid capture.
Hey Matt, your pronunciation is incorrect; its not the 'Ne-Ne' engine (lol) its pronounced 'Neen'; the engine was named after the river Nene in England. Rolls Royce named some of their jet engines after Rivers in England such as the Trent and the Derwent.
The wing fences are not there to solve the "hand built" assertion. But to solve an issue the F86 also shared. F86F's had similar fences, and so do planes up till this day.
@@drperky7008 MIg17, Mig 19, A-6 intruder, a lot of airliners use just a fence along the leading edge. And its not to fix "build quality" issues, but it one way to fix an aerodynamic issue all swept wing aircraft have. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_fence
@@Ace-Av8er Wing fences are a rather simple solution to maintain stable, front-to-back airflow over highly-swept wings at high speeds. Although they're highly effective for this purpose they also cause a degree of increased aerodynamic drag, especially while maneuvering at lower speeds. Western designers have traditionally looked at more complex solutions at solving high-speed airflow deviations over swept wings, preferring to not use wing fences at all if avoidable. If not, they tend to use the smallest fences possible. For example, the first fighters designed to routinely operate at supersonic speeds in level flight were the North American F-100 Super Sabre and the Mikoyan/Gurevitch MiG-19 "Farmer". Both aircraft featured highly-swept wings designed to decrease compressibilty near, at, and beyond Mach 1 at altitude. The F-100 used wide-span, variable-position leading-edge slats on both wings, combined with two very small wing fences near the tips to stabilize the high-speed airflow over the wings. The MiG-19, by contrast, used two extremely large mid-span wing fences with no variable leading-edge slats at all to solve the same purpose. This amounts to different design philosophies used by the designers of different countries to solve similar problems...
That comes from the inherent bias that most westerners have against the USSR then and Russia now. They must find flaws even when they're not there! The USSR or Russia always has to be below the US' level on everything. Notice how he said the Russians got 'help' from German designs while the US, which essentially built the same thing, simply 'used' German designs?
Boosted controls, automatic leading edge slats, a stabilator and the newer lead computing gun sight were refinements that gave the Sabre an edge. Boosted controls levels the playing field by reducing physical exertion in a tight turning fight. The Canadians had the most powerful Sabre using their own turbine of 7,500 lbs thrust.
Yeah interesting video obviously but I have to say, get on with it as this video is not supposed to be for the entertainment of young kids but for grown men!! I have to move on otherwise I'll be here until next summer!!
America claimed a 10 to one kill ratio Russia claimed a 4 to 1 ratio. Given the fact US pilots admit the Mig15 and 17 were almost impossible to shoot down often emptying their guns to no effect, I find the Russian 4 to 1 more believable.
According to the ratio of all downed aircraft, it turns out 1200 Americans against 330 Soviets, but 1200 also includes those shot down by air defense systems, but even with this we can say with confidence that the MiG fighter was very effective.
Oh thanks a bunch bro. Enjoyed your Vid huge ! Am a cancer patient ( worry not because I have both fists doubled up and will fight like a junkyard dog ) and sometimes I get bored as heck. One can only read a surf TH-cam and such so much. Then along comes a new one that entertains me and mucho gracias for that ! 5 star vid in my book.
This was a fantastic video! I was due to visit the MoF from Australia last year but alas covid happened. I look forward to visiting again in a few years.
@@johna.4334 There is a youtube video about it. A Russian delegation was touring the plant where they built the engines they wore shoes with very sticky soles to samples of the metal used. In the evening they had a few drink and played a few games and the bet was an engine and the Russian guy won remember this was early 50's the Russians had been allies and done most of the heavy lifting during the war so the Brits thought why not?
As a Brit living near the river Nene I'm definitely aware there's some controversy over how it should be pronounced. I can say with certainty that "Nae-Nae" is not either of them 😂
At that speeds, Wing Mounted guns slowed down the aircraft by damaging the aerodynamics, and weakening the wings construction, with Piston engine fighters, it's no problem, the speeds aren't high enough, the main problem is when a swept wing Jet Fighter(i.e the F86 Sabre for you) utilizes wing mounted guns, doing high speed maneuvers at 30,000 ft running numbers, using the wing mounted guns on the Sabre setup, you are throwing yourself in the real risk to damage your own wings, and a chance to break them off completely, if attempting to strengthen it, you add weight and destroy the sleek design of the wing, thus slowing the plane down, the last thing the USAF needs the problem of seeing how much ammo you can squeeze into the wing is already a problem, you'd need to widen the wings thickness so I don't see any problem with the nose mounted guns of the Sabre, plus, it's just a cover-up, it's no big deal
I don't believe the Soviets put wing fences on the Mig-15 because of poor hand-built construction as you suggest. They put them there because of design flaws inherent to the wing itself. They were there to block span-wise air flow. The Americans would have used vortex generators instead.
Allow me to straighten out some details. The British government did not foolishly sell its superlative Nene (neen) jet engine to the Soviet government. The socialist British government foolishly gave a free Nene jet engine to the Soviets who promptly reverse engineered the Nene and produced massive, unlicensed copies of it as the Klimov jet engine. Not all the British were so incredibly stupid. The British Tory Party and former prime minister Winston Churchill vehemently opposed giving the Nene jet engine to the Russians. The British War Ministry and the British Military all vehemently opposed this incredibly asinine free gift to its enemy, the Soviet Union. But at the time, the Labor Party controlled the British government. A pro-socialist political party, its leader, prime minister Atlee, looked upon the totalitarian communist nation of the USSR as a socialist brethren whom business could be done and a deeper political relationship cultivated. Former prime minister, Winston Churchill and his Tory Party were deeply suspicious of the Soviet Union. Churchill had even drawn up a top secret plan in June 1945, for a possible war with the USSR. Prior to the British Nene jet engine gift to the Russians, the Soviet Army Air Force had been limited to its Yak 15, Yak 17, and MiG-9 early jet fighters utilizing Soviet copies of the German Jumo 004 jet engine, producing some 2,100-lbs thrust. The Nene produced a whopping 5,000-lbs thrust. Installed into the MiG-15, a Russian derivative of the German Ta-183 jet fighter design, the rest is history. The MiG-15 and MiG-15bis soared high into the skies of North Korea, challenging the air might of the United States Air Force and the U.S. Navy's slower jet fighters. MiG-15s blew American B-29 Superfortress bombers out of the skies and forced the Americans to resort to night-time bombing. The Russians succeeded where the Germans and Japanese failed, to curtail American high-altitude, daylight bombing. The U.S. government and the USAF quickly shipped F-86A Sabre jets to Korea. The F-86A was a near match for the MiG-15 except in altitude where the MiG-15 could reach 50,000 feet compared to only 45,000 feet for the F-86A. Successive F-86 models slowly closed the gap until the F-86F appeared, able to reach 48,000 feet and able to establish a slim margin of superiority over the MiG-15. The F-86 kill ratio over the MiG-15 remains controversial even today. Originally published at an unrealistic 16 to 1, the USAF quietly amended the kill ratio over the next decades to 7 to 1. Yet modern military aviation historians still dispute that. Some argue the realistic kill ratio should be much lower at, 3 to 1. Another argument even goes to argue for 1.5 to 1 over the MiG-15. After 1991, retired Soviet MiG-15 pilots came out into the open and ridiculed the USAF kill claims. These old timers claim the kill ratio should be 2 to 1 in favor of the MiG-15. One retired Russian MiG-15 pilot claimed a better kill ratio over the Americans of 3 to 1! In the end, military aviation historians in the west are more inclined to agree on a favorable American kill ratio between 2 to1 to 3 to 1 at best. Far from discrediting the USAF, it actually helps the argument that the Americans were facing a top-notch aerial opponent with well-trained and skilled enemy pilots over North Korea, giving far more due credit to a favorable kill ratio of 2 to 1, or, 3 to 1.
I think it was the British Labor party that gave the NENE engine to Stalin. (for research purposes of course). Australia, the RAAF, later took up the Sabre and built it around the RR Avon engine, removed the wing leading edge slats, bigger air intake, 30 mm canon and a lot bigger range. cheers.
I know the ALP can't spell, but the British equivalent could - they just put Comradely solidarity above the national interest As to the CAC Avon Sabre - spot on.
All these “Which plane was superior?” videos bypass the most important variable: the pilot. The race to out-develop the other side in weapons tends to produce equipment that is roughly equivalent, making the experience and skill of the pilot crucial.
I think both of these planes were awsome for its time, but still all depence to the pilot skills, how you said the trained soviet pilots were good but the chinese and korean pilot without experience just cant compare to the good american aces
Privet , I am an American of Russian origin and my wife is from the former Soviet Union. I have always liked Soviet and Russian equipment. Would you be able to do me a favor? Can you get me a ShVAK 20 mm cannon round? I will pay for the item and shipping. When I get it I will get you a gift. Thank you, Markel
In an otherwise excellent documentary, you left out an important fact. Yes, the Mig 15 outperformed the F 86 at higher altitudes, but on the deck the Saber and the Mig were were evenly matched. In fact, the Saber was as much as 50 mph faster than the Mig nearer to the ground.
Today, Russian and American historians such as Cookie Sewall and Diego Zampinni admit that on 10/01/1955, not 10/08, there was the first kill of a jet by another jet. An F-80 Shooting Star patrol engaged three MiG-15s and veteran First Lieutenant Semyon Fyodorovich Khominich spotted 10 F-80F aircraft. Khomonich turned left, leaving the sun behind in combat formation. As a result of their attack, an F-80 was shot down. He opened fire at 800 meters, and stopped firing at less than 200 meters. Coming out of his attack, the lieutenant struggled to gain altitude. Major Bordun with the rest of the team attacked four F-80s that were trying to attack Khominich. The Americans went to the others without success, and finally abandoned the fight..." "...The Russian-built fighter was flown by five Air Force pilots. The F-86A-5 Saber underperformed when compared to the MIG-15. However, the superior training and tactics of the US pilots established a "kill ratio" better than 8:1 over MIG. [ kill-ratio also fixed: 1.3 to 1 ] (Photo: National Archives and Records Administration) *www.aviation-history.com/mikoyan/mig15.html*
I am glad you guys were able to take on Matt from Wings Over the Rockies! I loved his content from there and it's great to have him at my favorite museum!
wow what a great video. some new things there. i had no idea of the mig 15 being hand built! indeed in a russian documentary soviet pilots say the koreans had around 20 hours of training and that was it such was the pressure.
These two planes really stand out! Basically my two favorite aircraft, and dont forget the dr-1 triplane that the red baron died in! Its the coolest of all.
This video gives the impression that both aircraft are roughly the same size. When looking at both from above, at Smithsonian # 2 in Virginia, the Mig-15 looks much smaller, a virtual sports car.
Nice, BUT... the F-86 never came from the Fw-183, only the Mig-15 came from this german project. The F-86 also came from a german design, the "Me P-1101".
I've been here, at the Museum of flight, 3 years ago? Very cool. They have many aircraft here. Including some of Lockheed's most iconic aircraft. There's a Constellation parked out front, beatiful passenger airliner. They have one of NASA's F105 Star Fighters hanging from the ceiling, and an Archangel A12 as the centerpiece of their indoor display. Outside, A B29, A Concord you can board! And lots of others. There's a diner nearby that fits the theme. Way to hilight a very cool Aircraft Museum.
The Americans got to wear pressure suits, permitting pilots to withstand higher Gs. The 50 BMG ammo was API (Armor Piercing Incendiary), allowing the pilot to reach 1000 yards at high altitudes ≈ 40,000 feet. The Migs weren’t too sturdy, and often as not, the API rounds would light them up. The 37mm cannon could take out a plane with a single shot, but its trajectory looked like a punkin’ ball. The American pilots were more experienced and just better trained. I recall the flag at Nellis AFB (Red Flag - the Air Force version of Top Gun) flew at half-mast a lot more often than you would hope. Oops, I’m thinking 1962; I don’t know what was going on in ’52, but the story is too cool to leave out.
Hi man,I loved the comparison, very knowable with interesting facts on both planes. My favourite has to be the Mig 15, but what do I know. Peaceful respect. ✌️ ❤
If his rationale for saying the F-86 is better because of the veteran US pilots achieving an 8 to 1 kill ratio vs rookie Soviet, Chinese and Korean pilots, then I say let's look at the aces. Top Mig-15 ace was Nikolai Sutyagin with 22 victories. The second highest scoring Mig-15 ace was Yevgeny Pepelyaev with 19 victories. The highest scoring US ace was Joseph McConnell with 16 victories. There were over 75 Soviet, Chinese and North Korean fighter pilots who achieved ace status flying Mig-15s in Korea, the US produced only 40 F-86 pilots who achieved ace status and no South Koreans who achieved this status; therefore, the Mig-15 is a better fighter.
The Mig 15 used a pirated ☠️ copy of the British Nene (pronounced Neane) engine. The 1st generation Mig 15 could climb higher,faster, and slow down quicker.
7to.1rasho what you think public is fullesh. You know what the world sayed amarican cant know whare is his noes .garman . teach you what the aironote tacni.&
After the British government allowed the sale of the Rolls Royce Nene engine to the U.S.S.R. they reverse engineered it and built it. They stole it by never paying royalties to R.R. The U.S.S.R. and now Russia were and are criminal governments. Polonium Putin is the leader of a kleptocracy, this is not propaganda, just facts.
That guys in video is full of shit. Let's deal with real facts: 1. MiG-15 had nothing to do with Ta-183. In fact all documentation, factories and prototypes of it were in hands of British forces. 2. Things on wings are made as counter of airstream slipage. 3. As many people commented - if ratio of win/lose was 8:1 to US side - war would've ended quickly and there North Korea wouldn't exist. 4. Upd: According to wiki page: "A recent RAND report made reference to "recent scholarship" of F-86 v MiG-15 combat over Korea and concluded that the actual kill:loss ratio for the F-86 was 1.8 to 1 overall, and likely closer to 1.3 to 1 against MiGs flown by Soviet pilots. However, this ratio were not count the number of aircraft of other types (B-29, A-26, F-80, F-82, F-84...) were shot down by MiG-15s."
Fun fact the first MIG-15's downed during dogfights in Korea weren't downed by F-86's they were downed by the Navy's lovely F9F Panther.
In fact there was an American pilot that downed 4 Migs in the same dogfight when Migs attacked him. He landed his Panther full of holes but still flyable. That's why during WWII Grumman was called ironwork.
Probably because being carrier based they got to the theatre first.
A Mig15 was once shot down by an F4U
@@felixgaede6754 When I was a kid I'm always confused to the F4U and FH Phantom 😁
@@bong4538 Not sure if you are only telling your personal story here or if you are trying to tell me that I was cunfusing the Phantom with the Corsair. But if so, then no, I actually mean the Corsair
He really loves his job.
If I had his job I would be.
(inhales deeply) yeh man he sure does haha
Sabre wins for aesthetics alone, my favorite aircraft when it comes to that
The F-86 also had a flying tail which made it handle better in the trans-sonic region whereas the MiG-15 had a tradtional horizontal stabiliser and elevator arrangement.
The F-86 was used as a backdrop for many 1956 Plymouth car ads.
@@bobroberts2371 How interesting. I was a kid in ‘56 but I don’t remember that. Thanks for sharing.
This is true! Also, having the horizontal stabilizer and elevator at the top of the tail was a design misconception that caused a lot of trouble over time. The F-104 had one. There is a danger of the main wing blocking out the airflow over the tail during certain kinds of stalls, creating a severe loss of control. The British airliner, the BAC-111 had a "T" tail, and their "answer" to the problem was to have a stick shaker that would warn the pilots when they were about to get into trouble. That's a crude "fix" at best. The best place for the tail surfaces, preferably a flying tail, was low on the fuselage, but the Russians were copying a lot of data from the WWII Germans and, for once, the Germans got it wrong. The transonic handling qualities of the Mig-15 were shaky at best. For all of that, it had a lot of good qualities too.
While the sabre did have a stabilator it was no more maneuverable in pitch than the mig 15.
That is true, but, as ever, it is more complicated than that. The first model F-86A's didn't have the flying tail. They had conventional tails with elevators on the back. 500+ built. It was the "E" model that switched to the all flying tail where the fin as a whole moves. 450 built, and then the "F" model as well, and that was the majority with over 2200 built.
Interesting how people say the Me-262 was the superior aircraft over Allied jets because it had axial flow engines of the future but ignore the fact that the F-86 had an axial flow engine while the Mig-15 had a radial flow engine.
lower specific fuel consumption. Radials are less efficient
262 is a 1st generation jet fighter and 86/15 were 2nd generation fighters.
Actually, it's called...centrifugal flow...not "radial"...!!!
I want to fly a MiG-17. My all time favorite plane.
You missed a little bit of interesting (and facepalming) information on the Russians getting the Nene. Aside from little things like having shoes with special soles when they were given a tour of the plant that made them (picking up metal shavings for material analysis,) the British had them promise they'd only use the engines for civil use. To which the Russians, of course, went "Da, da, of course, we promise!" ... and promptly shoved it in fighter aircraft.
The F-86 Sabre would have much better destructive firepower if it had been armed with four or six 20 mm cannons instead of the six .50 cal machine guns. The USAF learned its lessons after the Korean War and armed the newer F-86Ds and F-86Hs and the later F-100s with 20 mm cannons.
Finally some one who give the deserved credits to the german design used for both planes.
I didn't know the MiG-15 had such a terrible gunsight. Superior firepower means absolutely nothing when you can't hit your target.
I’ve lived in Washington my entire life but I still haven’t been to the museum of flight yet. I can see the first 747 parked outside when I drive by on the freeway. I need to go soon.
Get yourself here!
@@museumofflight when are you open?
@@patfromamboy We're open seven days a week, 10 AM - 5 PM.
@@museumofflight Thanks a lot!
Locals rarely visit the touristy stuff of their own town. I spent a few months in Orlando (back in the 90s) and I couldn't find anyone that was up to go to Disney.
"What fool will sell us their secrets?"
The Soviets never paid the British for their engine design, as I understand it.
@@MrDgwphotos They didn't. But caving to the Soviets was nothing new.
The U.S. also stole fighter tech from the british around then too 🤣
@@billdewahl7007 I'm Polish and I can relate to what you said!
Same fool that will do BREXIT paid by the Russian propaganda machine ...
Your F-86 is from the Royal Canadian Air force. We flew this aircraft for a long time. What a great fighter.
Canadair produced a superior variation to the North American product
The F-86 was used as a backdrop for many 1956 Plymouth car ads.
CL-13
@@appa609 ye
They had one flying in air shows for the 2010 flying centenial
I've heard about the differences between the MIG-15, and the F-86. Though each had their strengths, at the end of the day, it was a fair fight.
yeah mig 8n vertical, but sabre as a rate fighter
mig guns harder for pilots to aim, but hit a lot harder when they landed. sabre had better ballistics, lower caliber. its a classic 6 in one hand situation.
A fair fight as far as equipment, but it's the pilot that counts in the end. With that said, I knew a couple of retired Air Force fighter pilots who said that the F 86 was the sweetest flying plane they had ever flown.
Hmmm. He concludes the major difference between the two was in the mid and later Korean war the F86 used more experienced pilots. In the beginning, the Russians did. So....that's not really a reason to conclude the F86 was that much better.
Yeah, I was going to say the same thing when I saw your comment. The conclusion about which air raft was better was due to pilot skill rather than the characteristics that distinguished the airplanes.
The last MiG-15 pilot to be shot down in the Korean War was, by the Russians' own admission, a Russian pilot. Per standing orders, he committed suicide to avoid capture.
It is better because of the bubble canopy, situational awareness is OP. Look for John Boyd
We, Australia, put a Rolls Royce Avon engine in it and 4 20mm cannons.
Hey Matt, your pronunciation is incorrect; its not the 'Ne-Ne' engine (lol) its pronounced 'Neen'; the engine was named after the river Nene in England. Rolls Royce named some of their jet engines after Rivers in England such as the Trent and the Derwent.
The wing fences are not there to solve the "hand built" assertion. But to solve an issue the F86 also shared. F86F's had similar fences, and so do planes up till this day.
sources?
and which other modern planes still have wing fences please.
@@drperky7008 MIg17, Mig 19, A-6 intruder, a lot of airliners use just a fence along the leading edge. And its not to fix "build quality" issues, but it one way to fix an aerodynamic issue all swept wing aircraft have. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_fence
Function of the wing fence was to prevent washout of air flow which was a pervasive problem in high swept wings. Mig-19, had the largest wing fences.
@@Ace-Av8er Wing fences are a rather simple solution to maintain stable, front-to-back airflow over highly-swept wings at high speeds. Although they're highly effective for this purpose they also cause a degree of increased aerodynamic drag, especially while maneuvering at lower speeds. Western designers have traditionally looked at more complex solutions at solving high-speed airflow deviations over swept wings, preferring to not use wing fences at all if avoidable. If not, they tend to use the smallest fences possible. For example, the first fighters designed to routinely operate at supersonic speeds in level flight were the North American F-100 Super Sabre and the Mikoyan/Gurevitch MiG-19 "Farmer". Both aircraft featured highly-swept wings designed to decrease compressibilty near, at, and beyond Mach 1 at altitude. The F-100 used wide-span, variable-position leading-edge slats on both wings, combined with two very small wing fences near the tips to stabilize the high-speed airflow over the wings. The MiG-19, by contrast, used two extremely large mid-span wing fences with no variable leading-edge slats at all to solve the same purpose. This amounts to different design philosophies used by the designers of different countries to solve similar problems...
That comes from the inherent bias that most westerners have against the USSR then and Russia now. They must find flaws even when they're not there! The USSR or Russia always has to be below the US' level on everything. Notice how he said the Russians got 'help' from German designs while the US, which essentially built the same thing, simply 'used' German designs?
Out of all the jet aircraft the United States used in its history, the F 86 will always be my favorite
The F86 is becoming my favorite. It just looks so cool and has a lot of interesting stories. The last gun fighters.
Mine too..
@@andrewlabat9963 My favorites used to be thr FW190, Me163, and Me262, and the F teens. But the Mig 15 and the F86 are both REALLY cool.
Boosted controls, automatic leading edge slats, a stabilator and the newer lead computing gun sight were refinements that gave the Sabre an edge. Boosted controls levels the playing field by reducing physical exertion in a tight turning fight. The Canadians had the most powerful Sabre using their own turbine of 7,500 lbs thrust.
Goodness, this guy speaks as if he’s going a Saturday morning kids show?
I wonder if pot is legal Seattle?
Yeah interesting video obviously but I have to say, get on with it as this video is not supposed to be for the entertainment of young kids but for grown men!!
I have to move on otherwise I'll be here until next summer!!
The F-86 looking mildly suprised like •o•
And the MiG 15 looks just astounded like •○•
And that’s the real difference between them. The look of mild surprise always wins against completely dumbfounded.
America claimed a 10 to one kill ratio Russia claimed a 4 to 1 ratio. Given the fact US pilots admit the Mig15 and 17 were almost impossible to shoot down often emptying their guns to no effect, I find the Russian 4 to 1 more believable.
According to the ratio of all downed aircraft, it turns out 1200 Americans against 330 Soviets, but 1200 also includes those shot down by air defense systems, but even with this we can say with confidence that the MiG fighter was very effective.
F86 is a hero plane of 1965 war in between India and Pakistan, Pakistani pilot M.M. Alam made world record in 1965 by F86
Oh thanks a bunch bro. Enjoyed your Vid huge ! Am a cancer patient ( worry not because I have both fists doubled up and will fight like a junkyard dog ) and sometimes I get bored as heck. One can only read a surf TH-cam and such so much. Then along comes a new one that entertains me and mucho gracias for that ! 5 star vid in my book.
F86: Made to counter mig15.
Pakistanis: Yeet Hunters and gnats with them
Had never seen the firing pass against a B-29 before. It's at 9:19.
North American had a knack for building beautiful planes. F-86 could win on looks alone. But it had the chops too.
This was a fantastic video! I was due to visit the MoF from Australia last year but alas covid happened. I look forward to visiting again in a few years.
Listening to you made me feel I'm back watching Sesame Street. Sheeesh...
Sunny Day
Sweepin' the clouds away
On my way to where the air is sweet
Actually the Russians won the engine on Billiards.
Explain please
@@johna.4334 There is a youtube video about it. A Russian delegation was touring the plant where they built the engines they wore shoes with very sticky soles to samples of the metal used. In the evening they had a few drink and played a few games and the bet was an engine and the Russian guy won remember this was early 50's the Russians had been allies and done most of the heavy lifting during the war so the Brits thought why not?
While so similar they were made for different purposes. One was made to shoot b-29, the other was to protect them
As a Brit living near the river Nene I'm definitely aware there's some controversy over how it should be pronounced.
I can say with certainty that "Nae-Nae" is not either of them 😂
Its american video so USA win
Sir kurt tank also designed hf-23 Marut for India...It was India's first jet fighter plane.
Do you mean HF-24? That fighter wasn't very successful.
Why the Hell did they fill in the 50 Cal Gun Ports on the F-86 Sabre? Plus they did an awful job of covering them up too! Dummies!
At that speeds, Wing Mounted guns slowed down the aircraft by damaging the aerodynamics, and weakening the wings construction, with Piston engine fighters, it's no problem, the speeds aren't high enough, the main problem is when a swept wing Jet Fighter(i.e the F86 Sabre for you) utilizes wing mounted guns, doing high speed maneuvers at 30,000 ft
running numbers, using the wing mounted guns on the Sabre setup, you are throwing yourself in the real risk to damage your own wings, and a chance to break them off completely, if attempting to strengthen it, you add weight and destroy the sleek design of the wing, thus slowing the plane down, the last thing the USAF needs
the problem of seeing how much ammo you can squeeze into the wing is already a problem, you'd need to widen the wings thickness
so I don't see any problem with the nose mounted guns of the Sabre, plus, it's just a cover-up, it's no big deal
@@Cobra-King3 except ot makes it look un authentic and like a cheap copy
@@looneytunes47 as expected from Export variants
I don't believe the Soviets put wing fences on the Mig-15 because of poor hand-built construction as you suggest. They put them there because of design flaws inherent to the wing itself. They were there to block span-wise air flow. The Americans would have used vortex generators instead.
- you are right about them trying to correct the air-flow with those flaps.
I'd take the caddy SABRE all day long, so beautiful 😍 just perfect 👌 🇺🇸
I think the F-86 represents everything that American aviation can be. Plus it’s a sexy looking ride.
Allow me to straighten out some details. The British government did not foolishly sell its superlative Nene (neen) jet engine to the Soviet government. The socialist British government foolishly gave a free Nene jet engine to the Soviets who promptly reverse engineered the Nene and produced massive, unlicensed copies of it as the Klimov jet engine. Not all the British were so incredibly stupid. The British Tory Party and former prime minister Winston Churchill vehemently opposed giving the Nene jet engine to the Russians. The British War Ministry and the British Military all vehemently opposed this incredibly asinine free gift to its enemy, the Soviet Union. But at the time, the Labor Party controlled the British government. A pro-socialist political party, its leader, prime minister Atlee, looked upon the totalitarian communist nation of the USSR as a socialist brethren whom business could be done and a deeper political relationship cultivated. Former prime minister, Winston Churchill and his Tory Party were deeply suspicious of the Soviet Union. Churchill had even drawn up a top secret plan in June 1945, for a possible war with the USSR.
Prior to the British Nene jet engine gift to the Russians, the Soviet Army Air Force had been limited to its Yak 15, Yak 17, and MiG-9 early jet fighters utilizing Soviet copies of the German Jumo 004 jet engine, producing some 2,100-lbs thrust. The Nene produced a whopping 5,000-lbs thrust. Installed into the MiG-15, a Russian derivative of the German Ta-183 jet fighter design, the rest is history.
The MiG-15 and MiG-15bis soared high into the skies of North Korea, challenging the air might of the United States Air Force and the U.S. Navy's slower jet fighters. MiG-15s blew American B-29 Superfortress bombers out of the skies and forced the Americans to resort to night-time bombing. The Russians succeeded where the Germans and Japanese failed, to curtail American high-altitude, daylight bombing.
The U.S. government and the USAF quickly shipped F-86A Sabre jets to Korea. The F-86A was a near match for the MiG-15 except in altitude where the MiG-15 could reach 50,000 feet compared to only 45,000 feet for the F-86A. Successive F-86 models slowly closed the gap until the F-86F appeared, able to reach 48,000 feet and able to establish a slim margin of superiority over the MiG-15.
The F-86 kill ratio over the MiG-15 remains controversial even today. Originally published at an unrealistic 16 to 1, the USAF quietly amended the kill ratio over the next decades to 7 to 1. Yet modern military aviation historians still dispute that. Some argue the realistic kill ratio should be much lower at, 3 to 1. Another argument even goes to argue for 1.5 to 1 over the MiG-15. After 1991, retired Soviet MiG-15 pilots came out into the open and ridiculed the USAF kill claims. These old timers claim the kill ratio should be 2 to 1 in favor of the MiG-15. One retired Russian MiG-15 pilot claimed a better kill ratio over the Americans of 3 to 1! In the end, military aviation historians in the west are more inclined to agree on a favorable American kill ratio between 2 to1 to 3 to 1 at best. Far from discrediting the USAF, it actually helps the argument that the Americans were facing a top-notch aerial opponent with well-trained and skilled enemy pilots over North Korea, giving far more due credit to a favorable kill ratio of 2 to 1, or, 3 to 1.
the 50s were higher velocity and higher fire rate; making them more accurate and got more hits.
the f86 was armored and far more survivable.
I think it was the British Labor party that gave the NENE engine to Stalin. (for research purposes of course). Australia, the RAAF, later took up the Sabre and built it around the RR Avon engine, removed the wing leading edge slats, bigger air intake, 30 mm canon and a lot bigger range.
cheers.
nae nae engine
I know the ALP can't spell, but the British equivalent could - they just put Comradely
solidarity above the national interest As to the CAC Avon Sabre - spot on.
@@drperky7008 sounds like roadrunner😂
It wasn’t given… and the Soviets broke their licensing agreements…… and they sold the stolen technology on to 3rd parties…
Russian piloted Mig 15s blasted them out of the sky, one night the Allied air loss was so heavy that they named it black day lol.
All these “Which plane was superior?” videos bypass the most important variable: the pilot. The race to out-develop the other side in weapons tends to produce equipment that is roughly equivalent, making the experience and skill of the pilot crucial.
The issue was actually addressed in the video. Between skilled pilots, the score between the two planes was almost even.
I like his catching phrase “how cool is that “. So please do carry on the other show.
I think both of these planes were awsome for its time, but still all depence to the pilot skills, how you said the trained soviet pilots were good but the chinese and korean pilot without experience just cant compare to the good american aces
Privet , I am an American of Russian origin and my wife is from the former Soviet Union. I have always liked Soviet and Russian equipment. Would you be able to do me a favor? Can you get me a ShVAK 20 mm cannon round? I will pay for the item and shipping. When I get it I will get you a gift. Thank you, Markel
In an otherwise excellent documentary, you left out an important fact. Yes, the Mig 15 outperformed the F 86 at higher altitudes, but on the deck the Saber and the Mig were were evenly matched. In fact, the Saber was as much as 50 mph faster than the Mig nearer to the ground.
I really appreciate the detailed information
His voice reminds me of Owen Wilson
F-86 baby!
And his appearance is that of a Doonsberry character.
Very good. Thank you.
2:30 “for civilian purposes only”
Interestingly, Pakistan Air Force was flying both in their inventory, though the Mig was the Chinese version.
Man, no matter how awesome MiG would look, but i am a huge fan of F-86 Sabres. I love this aircraft. Simply Awesome American.
Today, Russian and American historians such as Cookie Sewall and Diego Zampinni admit that
on 10/01/1955, not 10/08, there was the first kill of a jet by another jet. An F-80 Shooting Star patrol engaged three MiG-15s and veteran First Lieutenant Semyon Fyodorovich Khominich spotted 10 F-80F aircraft. Khomonich turned left, leaving the sun behind in combat formation. As a result of their attack, an F-80 was shot down. He opened fire at 800 meters, and stopped firing at less than 200 meters. Coming out of his attack, the lieutenant struggled to gain altitude. Major Bordun with the rest of the team attacked four F-80s that were trying to attack Khominich. The Americans went to the others without success, and finally abandoned the fight..."
"...The Russian-built fighter was flown by five Air Force pilots. The F-86A-5 Saber underperformed when compared to the MIG-15. However, the superior training and tactics of the US pilots established a "kill ratio" better than 8:1 over MIG.
[ kill-ratio also fixed: 1.3 to 1 ]
(Photo: National Archives and Records Administration)
*www.aviation-history.com/mikoyan/mig15.html*
genious logic. So soviets stole all and americans designed everything on itself own???
The RR engine is pronounced NEEEEN or Knee with an "n" on the end, It's part of the river series and that is still going with the Trent.
Nay-Nay sounds like the response you give when someone says NaNu-NaNu to you
I'd like the saber more if it wasn't for that weird nose.
I am glad you guys were able to take on Matt from Wings Over the Rockies! I loved his content from there and it's great to have him at my favorite museum!
The 86's radar was the biggest factor.
My vote is for the MiG-15, fuck the F-86 🤣🤣🤣
wow what a great video. some new things there. i had no idea of the mig 15 being hand built! indeed in a russian documentary soviet pilots say the koreans had around 20 hours of training and that was it such was the pressure.
These two planes really stand out! Basically my two favorite aircraft, and dont forget the dr-1 triplane that the red baron died in! Its the coolest of all.
This video gives the impression that both aircraft are roughly the same size. When looking at both from above, at Smithsonian # 2 in Virginia, the Mig-15 looks much smaller, a virtual sports car.
Kurt Tank went on to produce swept wing jets for other countries
Good Idea for a new serious, I like the Mig Better. Both are solid planes.
As always, pilot skill by far is the most importatn factor be it tank or plane, but great video =)
@Ignacio Muñoz Diaz what a pendejo
@Lil Agin
Chill
"How cool it's that!?!"
Nice, BUT... the F-86 never came from the Fw-183, only the Mig-15 came from this german project. The F-86 also came from a german design, the "Me P-1101".
I've been here, at the Museum of flight, 3 years ago? Very cool. They have many aircraft here. Including some of Lockheed's most iconic aircraft. There's a Constellation parked out front, beatiful passenger airliner. They have one of NASA's F105 Star Fighters hanging from the ceiling, and an Archangel A12 as the centerpiece of their indoor display. Outside, A B29, A Concord you can board! And lots of others. There's a diner nearby that fits the theme. Way to hilight a very cool Aircraft Museum.
The Americans got to wear pressure suits, permitting pilots to withstand higher Gs. The 50 BMG ammo was API (Armor Piercing Incendiary), allowing the pilot to reach 1000 yards at high altitudes ≈ 40,000 feet. The Migs weren’t too sturdy, and often as not, the API rounds would light them up. The 37mm cannon could take out a plane with a single shot, but its trajectory looked like a punkin’ ball. The American pilots were more experienced and just better trained. I recall the flag at Nellis AFB (Red Flag - the Air Force version of Top Gun) flew at half-mast a lot more often than you would hope. Oops, I’m thinking 1962; I don’t know what was going on in ’52, but the story is too cool to leave out.
I don't want to be rude.. but this host.. I can't connect to him..
Hi man,I loved the comparison, very knowable with interesting facts on both planes. My favourite has to be the Mig 15, but what do I know. Peaceful respect. ✌️ ❤
If his rationale for saying the F-86 is better because of the veteran US pilots achieving an 8 to 1 kill ratio vs rookie Soviet, Chinese and Korean pilots, then I say let's look at the aces. Top Mig-15 ace was Nikolai Sutyagin with 22 victories. The second highest scoring Mig-15 ace was Yevgeny Pepelyaev with 19 victories. The highest scoring US ace was Joseph McConnell with 16 victories.
There were over 75 Soviet, Chinese and North Korean fighter pilots who achieved ace status flying Mig-15s in Korea, the US produced only 40 F-86 pilots who achieved ace status and no South Koreans who achieved this status; therefore, the Mig-15 is a better fighter.
The sabre: :C
The mig 15: :O
Nice video.. Gotta love the F86..!!
The Mig 15 used a pirated ☠️ copy of the British Nene (pronounced Neane) engine. The 1st generation Mig 15 could climb higher,faster, and slow down quicker.
They looked so similar coz the one with stripes was a copy of the other one, so had to have those similarities
It’s funny how we got that MIG it came from a Korean defector
Pilot quality first.
2nd was the shower of six 50cals.;
yet ironically, it was Stalin who said:
‘Quantity has a quality all its own’.
This guy is like a close copy of owen wilson lol. So chill
The chillest.
The Mig was the best plane of its time! Any Mig was the best plane of its time even today!
That was probably true until the mig-23, everything went downhill from there
Would that I could go shopping in N. Korea or Albania for Migs & AN-2s.
@@xzqzq Please do so! They are superb planes!
My grandad flew the F86 Saber and F84 Thunderjet as well as a menagerie of other aircraft during his time in the USAF.
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
The key of the pradice aljanah is la ilaha ila alah Mohamed rasoul alah islamic religion
Why are there no gun openings on the F-86, and why is it that whatever is covering the openings looks cracked and makeshift?
It doesn’t exactly look like the German aircraft. The Russians are brilliant scientist ,designers ,and engineers . They don’t need help
7to.1rasho what you think public is fullesh.
You know what the world sayed amarican cant know whare is his noes .garman . teach you what the aironote tacni.&
MIG15 will always remain the best fighter. The Soviets did not get help from anyone. Stop your cheap propaganda.
After the British government allowed the sale of the Rolls Royce Nene engine to the U.S.S.R. they reverse engineered it and built it. They stole it by never paying royalties to R.R. The U.S.S.R. and now Russia were and are criminal governments. Polonium Putin is the leader of a kleptocracy, this is not propaganda, just facts.
How ironic it is that both of these planes were powered by copies of rolls Royce engines that we gave away. And yet we had the meteor????????
Don't all airframe mounted pilot controlled aircraft guns get different aim points to a convergence range (around 1000ft)?
I absolutely love the Seattle museum of flight. I would love to talk with Matt and look at all of the aircraft.
The British when Mig-15s start harassing the Americans over Korea: *get NENE'd*
Its intresting that from WW11 with Spitfires and Messeshmit 109s
Then Mig and Sabres both similar
That guys in video is full of shit. Let's deal with real facts:
1. MiG-15 had nothing to do with Ta-183. In fact all documentation, factories and prototypes of it were in hands of British forces.
2. Things on wings are made as counter of airstream slipage.
3. As many people commented - if ratio of win/lose was 8:1 to US side - war would've ended quickly and there North Korea wouldn't exist.
4. Upd: According to wiki page: "A recent RAND report made reference to "recent scholarship" of F-86 v MiG-15 combat over Korea and concluded that the actual kill:loss ratio for the F-86 was 1.8 to 1 overall, and likely closer to 1.3 to 1 against MiGs flown by Soviet pilots. However, this ratio were not count the number of aircraft of other types (B-29, A-26, F-80, F-82, F-84...) were shot down by MiG-15s."
I love how he is whispering I think its cause he knows most of us are watching this at night
10:50 PM...
Wing fins on MiG reasoning sounds BS but I may be wrong
Look up the channel " AgentJayZ " He was building an engine for a F-86
Like…cool dude😳. Far out, man…typical Seattle stoner 🤢. Wow…..
I love the F 86 it is the first jet with swept wings and its a "BIG" legend.
It is not first jet with swept wings
Marko Lomovic dude it was
@@smokyraven7818 me 262 HELLO????
Wait oh yeah the german me 262 ur right
But the F-86 is the first swiped wing jet in USA
Best description of a mig 15 I ever heard was “flying tractor”.
I ❤ Mig 15.....