Another thing about the Numenoreans fighting in Valinor is that the elves could be reincarnated after being killed and sent back out there if the Valar wished. It would have been many more waves of elves (depending on how many of them would want to keep fighting or remain in the halls of Mandos). As powerful as the Numenoreans had become their numbers would eventually dwindle in a situation like that with no hope for reinforcements.
What I gathered was that all the Valar (not just Melkor) expended the vast majority of their power by the time of the Battle of the Powers. While they once battled with Melkor over the formation of the world, their works are now permanently marred. The best example of this is Yavanna who, without the Silmarils, is not able to create the two trees again. In Tolkien's world, as time passes, both evil and good decrease in power.
Yavanna already explains in the Silmarilion why she cannot recreat the Trees. It is because it was such a grand work that she could only make it once. This theory I find to be unfounded. Melkor is the only Valar specifucally stated to have lost strength. This is supported by the fact that he feared the idea of fighting Fingolfin. No other Valar are stated to have expended their will like this nor experience fear.
I agree on exactly this point you are making. The Ainur at the shaping of Arda were extremely powerful beings that could raise mountains, change shape in an instant etc, but as time passed, they exhausted their powers. Melkor/Morgoth most of all and deliberately, but to some degree it goes for all of them. I would even say they were all generally "incarnate" by some time in the 1st or 2nd age, and no longer completely beyond comprehension. I think Sauron had this special power to assume any form up until a point, and sea gods like Ulmo and Ossë for natural reasons. But as I usually frame it, why would Manwë need his eagles as intelligence gatherers over Middle-Earth, if he could just float over there and take a peek by himself?
Perhaps slightly more precise on that last point, evil and good decrease over time yes, but not The Good. Eru Iluvatar is the ultimate source of life, power and existence and is the ultimate good. He has the power to create life via the Flame Imperishable, truly resurrect like with Gandalf the White (and possibly Glorfindel as well) and empower limitlessly. His creations are limited when independent from Him but may be restored and strengthened by Eru should He will it. However, evil is a corruption, cannot create by itself and inherently opposed to Eru. This distinction is why despite being godlike beings, all of the Ainur including the Valar are ultimately angelic beings and Eru, the One, who is Iluvatar, Father of all, is indeed the one true God in the Legendarium.
@@rcbmmines4579 You are putting too much Christian theology into the equation, were it is not intended. In his most important statement on the intentions with his wider Legendarium, Letter 131, please read: "But an equally basic passion of mine ab initio was for myth (not allegory!) and for fairy-story, and above all for heroic legend on the brink of fairy-tale and history, of which there is far too little in the world (accessible to me) for my appetite.... ... [feel free to read the missing part]... Of course there was and is all the Arthurian world, but powerful as it is, it is imperfectly naturalized, associated with the soil of Britain but not with English; and does not replace what I felt to be missing. For one thing its 'faerie' is too lavish, and fantastical, incoherent and repetitive. For another and more important thing: it is involved in, and explicitly contains the Christian religion."
@@henrikg1388 With all due respect, I believe you’re the one not putting enough credit to Tolkien’s Catholic Christian beliefs nor his intentions. Do not mistake his incorporation of those beliefs for allegory, or contradictory to his love for mythology. As he told C.S. Lewis, Christianity is the ultimate and one true myth. This was part of how he convinced him to no longer be an atheist, though to his dismay, he chose the Anglican Church. Nevertheless I point you to this famous excerpt from Letter 142, please read: “The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision.” Tolkien himself admits he did it unconsciously at first, for indeed he wanted to make an authentic “subcreation” that reflected the truths of reality, and when he realized the inevitability of his faith influencing that world, he then deliberately did so as he constantly revised it with his faith in mind. Divine providence is something he touches on often in his Legendarium. For background, you must understand how deeply Catholic Tolkien really was. Not only did he convert C.S. Lewis, he converted his wife as well. He was actually raised by a Priest after his mother passed, and his first son was named after both his father and that Priest, and that son went on to become a Priest as well. Tolkien has also written on his devotions to the Eucharist and the Blessed Virgin Mary. IIRC he once compared Gandalf visually to St. Joseph. He contributed to the New Jerusalem Bible translation, and also insisted on responding in traditional Ecclesiastical Latin in Mass even after Vatican II allowed the ordinary form to be done in the vernacular. The faith was everywhere and in everything in his life and deeds. Lastly, it is also important to understand Catholicism specifically, and to a certain extent other more traditional denominations such as the Eastern Orthodox and Anglican Churches. We attribute to the one true God only true infinite power, wisdom etc. and true worship for God through the sacraments. The existence of other beings (supernatural or human) deserving of reverence, participating in the world, serving His will and capable of intercession is an important part of the faith, one modern Protestant denominations misunderstand as divine worship. Generally also, the Abrahamic faiths do not assert all pagan gods are mere fictions, as Scriptures often allude to them being in reality angels mistaken as gods, or fallen angels posing as them. A common traditional interpretation of the Plagues in Exodus for example was God defeating the “gods” of Egypt by turning their powers back on them.
Tulkas would definitely have the power to defeat the army of Numenor, but he was oathbound to not harm any of the children of Iluvatar, and therefore didn't want to intervene
@@exantiuse497 Indeed, thus Mandos asked Eru to intervene, though should Eru have responded with "do what you need", it's kind of probable that the Valar would just close up the mountain ranges and left a tiny strip of land where the army of the numenorians landed a proverbial hell-hole with awful weather and little hope for survival, for the the love of the children of Eru Illuvatar was still within the Valar, thus harming them would not have been in their thoughts. (I mean, the Valar is all-mighty within the universe, they could basically lift the entire army, ships included, and plopp them back onto Numenor) (oh, and I said "within", their actions throughout since creation have been very restrained with little of their true might shown, and also "within" as though they are all-powerful within, they are but a small reflection of the mind of Eru, for though they are truly mighty, their power in comparison to Eru is akin to them being a drop, versus an infinite ocean. Like a 1D dot versus a multiverse that never ends in scope)
People forget just how different UnGoliant was from virtually anything else in Tokien's Legendarium. I wonder if so-called "creatures of the void" are actually capable of killing a Maiar outright. Probably only in just body, but possibly not. What if UnGoliant consumed, say, Goldberry?
Ungoliath consumed way more than Goldberry by drinking entirely the very life force of the two trees, the crown achievement never to be repeated by the goddess/ Valier of life Yavanna.
Another thing I wonder is if it was even possible for the corrupted numenorians under Sauron to even try to make a foothold for an invasion once they reached Valinor
I think that the elves living in Valinor, would be stronger than the Numenoreans, although less in number. Eventually the Elves would destroy the Numenorean host and then build a Deathstar to destroy Numenor itself.
@@ulbingelias6894on one hand I really agree. On the other, to my understanding eru directly stepped in to destroy numenor. That's such a huge step from him that it makes me think there was a very major danger there.
@@IStealButterdToast Eru always intervenes, the ∠ world itself and everyone in it was a pretty massive intervention and nothing happens, ever, that isn’t furthering his grand design. You can agree or disagree, I happen to be agnostic bordering on atheist in real life but that's how Arda works. . If he wanted them to, they would as I said.
I mean if Fingolfin can Morgoth a limp well then to quote a famous film "If it bleeds we can kill it" its just very hard to kill the guy because he has a lot of power.
Of course, when Morgoth had poured his essence into the world, he also greatly weakened his power and bound himself to his physical form, so I think of him as an exception.
@@keithklassen5320 both Gandalf and Saruman got killed tho. What happened to them after that was just up to Manwe probably. So what does it mean to die anyhow ?🤔
Morgoths spirit still exists in the void. No creature with consciousness can be completely destroyed, their spirits will always exist, unless Eru can unmake them.
We also need to remember, Morgoth made Arda into his own "Ring", meaning that for as long as there is world, he will remain and will come back eventually, which is what happens during the Dagor Dagorath, Turing giving him the last blow, and with Arda gone and remade, we can presume he is gone for good, or at least an spirit like Sauron, without form nor the ability to interact with anyone anymore
"Killing" means different than "completely annihillating so not even a spirit remains". In Tolkien's lore, men can absolutely be killed, but their spirit is not destroyed and will depart the world to an unknown fate. And elves can be killed, which caused their spirit to go to halls of Mandos. In both cases the words kill/death can be used, so I'd say it's not inaccurate to say Morgoth can be and was killed, even if his spirit still exists in the void
@@exantiuse497 Oh no I understand it, but in this case I believe the final fate of Morgoth will be the same as that of Sauron: An inmortal, invisible spirit with no power to talk, interact or affect the world, just... exist
@@fildariusv7045 After the end of the Dagor Dagorath, Arda would be remade into the unmarred form that was originally intended, thus removing the taint Morgoth introduced into it.
Thank you for that video! I see people claiming the Valar were afraid and asked Eru to intervene because they themself were to weak to destroy the Numenorians.
Dagor Dagorath's ambiguousness aside, no Ainu can ever truly die. Thus is the nature of Eru's guarantee of souls with free-will, and as the true life of Ainur are but spirits, they are true immortals (incarnate Ainur getting as close as possible to death as is possible for them).
It all depends on what "death" means. If it means complete eradication so that nothing remains, not even a spirit, then no sentient creature can be "killed". If it means the spirit leaves the world, then only Men (and possibly Dwarves, the lore isn't clear on them) can "die", but Elves cannot. If it means the body being destroyed which releases the spirit, regardless of what happens to the spirit afterwards, then everyone that has a physical form can "die"
@exantiuse497 that is why I mentioned true life. For an Ainu, their bodies are raiments unless incarnate. Their original state and natural state is purely spiritual, unlike the Children which are a union of body and spirit.
@tiltskillet7085 Something which is largely meaningless (beyond reduction of power and trauma) to an Ainu's life. They are not like the Children, their lives are not of a union between material and spiritual, they are spirits that form bodies as raiment to interact.
But, what happens to Saruman at the end of return of the King? He turns into smoke, which drifts westward as if to return to Valinor, but is blown away and dissipated by the wind. He was rejected by Illuvatar and killed.
In general, it is possible to wound and beat Ainur in combat, but it is far easier to kill their physical forms then to destroy their spirits, which is a far harder nut to crack. It is theorically possible to kill the physical form of the Valar, but good luck pulling it off! Granted, Fingolfin came the closest of pulling it off against Morgoth, but Morgoth only had a fraction of of his power when their fight happened, and Fingolfin was the Mightiest Elf of his time, and Fingolfin still died for his troubles...
I like your sub series like mysteries of Middle-Earth and here's an idea for another series "Creatures of Middle Earth" like wargs, Mumakill, Great Eagles, the creatures pulling Grond, the flying things of the Nazgul, Vampires, werewolves etc. Werewolves especially interest me as Gandalf says as the Council of Elrond that werewolves were still in Sauron's service but for the entire three books nobody encounters or claims to have seen one not even the rangers of Ilithien who would most likely be the ones dealing with them. So are they extinct like the vampires seemingly are or are they still around? Maybe one of Tolkien's notes that you have read could shed some light on it.
I never read the books apart from listening to bits of the stories in lore on TH-cam, so the topic of werewolves and vampires in Tolkien always confused me, are they like werewolves in vampires in real-world mythology where they're humans that get cursed to live as monsters or they just monstrous animals? Because the latter is the info I got and that would annoy me that Tolkien wouldn't use their humanoid aspects but still call them werewolves and vampires.
To paraphrase what the Valar said to Feanor "It is not within you to kill Melkor if you were created a being many times more powerful than you are". Can't find the exact quote. Answers the question without the video. (this was after he already sent much of his power into Arda)
I've wondered if Morgoth ever experienced death anxiety. I feel like he felt mortal in a way, being the only Vala to know fear. Having lost the ability to reshape his body, and having persistent wounds, surely he had to know his body could be destroyed. He was definitely afraid of fighting Fingolfin, at least, and until then Im not sure if anyone thought he could even be harmed.
I'm almost positive, especially since he was able to wound his leg permanently, that if he had managed to cut Morgoths throat, then yes, he could have killed him. (That being forcing his spirit to leave his physical body) Morgoth had been in that body for a very long time at this point.
Does anyone else ever want him to touch on who would win type of scenarios? Almost like comic or movie character match ups? Could 3rd age Gondor conquer all the dwarves and elves at their height of power? Could numenor at their height take on the hidden elven kingdoms of the first age ? Then simpler ones such as Rohan vs Lorien or dale vs Mirkwood. Turin vs fingolfin. I think it you run out of ideas some things like this would get you back into counting the amount of troops, technology , warfare and population which u seem to love. Thanks
I was told by many adults in my life that those kinds of "who would win" comparison scenarios are pointless, unanswerable, miss the purpose of the text, and demonstrate a fundamentally immature mind. Now that I am an adult, I still want to know all the answers to your questions.
Yea you’re probably right but why else are we so interested in a made up world if it doesn’t resonate with something real in us. I like the same what ifs for our own history too, let’s hope we get some videos.
I guess I never realized that Morgoth became purely physical. I knew that he had divested himself ofca great deal of hus essence, so that he could corrupt Middle Earth, the Orcs, the Dragons, and other monsters he twisted, but I definitely still assumed that he was a spirit; just maybe a spirit like Sauron, who also "lost" something, when several of his physical forms were killed, despite still lingering. In much the same way a diminished Sauron still lingered, so long as the Ring exists, I assumed Morgoth would continue to exist so long as this world dis, with so much of him tied up in it. As for not wanting to "die" I assumed it might be more losing face, since he was supposed to be so powerful, and, later on, knowing that if he was bested, even if he she'd his form, the Silmarils would remain with that firm, and he'd lose them, too. I get that, in this case, "death" and unbeing are different things, so we still aren't saying his eternal center would permanently disappear, but it still seems odd that he CAN die, when there shouldn't be any reason for his class of being to have that "ability". It's a writing choice I really liked from David Eddings. In his book, the evil God Torak makes a nuisance of himself, but even the heroes can't do anything about it, as gods are basically inviolate. Only they can hurt one another, and only Torak actually would, so he gets off, but he stole an object from outside the world, and IT has the power to break these rules. When he uses it, it injures him; burning off his hand, to the wrist, abd boiling out one of his eyes, and continuing to burn, though not consume, ever after. It doesn't really keep hurting Torak; it did its thing to punish him, but the deal is he can't physically heal; as a God, he is considered invulnerable, and so the world, or his father UL, never granted him the "ability" of healing, so he can't. The Valar feel more made for purpose, so it always seems odd to me that anything beneath them can harm them, because why would Eru Illuvatar do that? If they were following the script, there'd be no reason for the ageless, immortal beings to feel pain, or know injury. That's why the Children can feel those things, and part of what makes them different. Or at least that's pointless thoughts that have gone through my head.😊
What happens to the elves who return to valinor? Do they all end up living on Tol Eressea? Like, do the Vanyar go 'So.. what's middle earth like?' I've always been curious about this aspect of the lore. Galadriel reuniting with her father would be an interesting such perspective
Honestly the King’s Men must have forgotten a great deal of their own history when they started worshiping Morgoth. I mean the existence of Numenor is directly tied to the defeat of Morgoth. Did they forget why they were given the island?
I think the most a coporeal being in Middle Earth could hope to accomplish would be to destroy a Vala's physical form. Though this would probably be so difficult as to be all but impossible.
When it comes to invading Aman, forget the ability to appear in whatever form you want, do you _really_ want to be fighting beings that can literally raise mountains with a wave of their hands?
I have always believed it's possible but only for Men. Turin aside, Men's fates are not bound to Arda and so the Valar's authority over them is not absolute. An Elf could never do it because they are bound to Arda which the Valar are supreme within.
It's actually not implausible canonically. Dagor Dagorath is prophesied in-universe, and since Tolkien intended his world to be our world it could well happen in the present day.
I imagine a similar concept with Sauron: what if he was never defeated and still ruled the world currently day? I imagine it would be like 1984 on steroids. Morgoth if he returned would definitely utilize technology and would probably take over the internet
What would happen if a Valar died? Would it be a god of war situation where the world is directly effected, such as if Manwe died, would the sky erupt? If Yavanna died, would plants die etc? Probably not as Eru wouldn't allow that to effect the world, as by the end of the second age and every age post third age, the valar don't even interact with the world directly anymore, so would any effect happen at all? Would Morgoth's body be destroyed forever if Fingolfin won?
I'm 99% sure that if a Vala was killed basically nothing would happen. As I understand it, Valar do not maintain or uphold the world, they basically just made it and then hung around at Valinor for the rest of time. So if you killed one, that Vala wouldn't be around anymore/would be too weak to do anything, so they wouldn't be able to affect the world anymore but what they already did would remain
Arda existed before the Valar moved into it. And while it was the Ainulindalë that provided the "blueprint" for Arda, it was Ilúvatar that actually brought it into existence.
I think it is very much possible. The way Morgoth and Sauron diminished was not special. All Ainur loose power by using it to affect the physical realm. We see this with Yavanna - she originally created the Two Trees of Valinor, but she was unable to re-make them once they were destroyed. In principle, it should be possible trick/force an Ainur to waste their power to a point they become mortal.
Is it realistically possible to trick them like that? Presumably each Vala is too smart and clever to fall for such a scheme, but I've always seen them as naive and unaware of how evil operates, so maybe it can be done.
@@General12th Ainur aren't capital G gods. They are fallible people with limited perspectives, emotions and personalities, that make mistakes and don't always learn from them. For instance, Morgoth was not the first one to "create" an entire race in mockery of the elves. Aule did it first when he, in his impatience, created the dwarves.
really makes no sense to have these debates in Tolkien's universe with all the soft magic. The Ainur aren't beings with a power meter that gets depleted, they just do things that fit their purpose and destiny, as given by Eru.
Actually, what would happen if Eru shoved a Vala through the Door, body and all? Would their body wither and die on the other side until only the spirit remained? Would it be killed instantly? What about an elf or a human? I wish we knew more about what the other side of the Door was like. I assume it's a great black void with only the barest of platforms to stand on and only the faintest of light seeping through the cracks in the Door. Probably deathly boring if you're alone like Morgoth was.
The Numenoreans trying to fight the Valar would be something like Xerxes or Caligula fighting against a body of water. Imagine the soldiers of Ar Pharazon fighting against the wind or against an earthquake or against the rain. Nor really doable, is it?
I dont think anything of the world could kill a spirit. But Ungoliant could and Eru also could unmake them I think. Depending on the nature of the nameless things maybe they could also.
Maybe I missed it, but I think you bypassed a perfect example to support your argument. When Solomon is killed in the scouring of the shire, I’m pretty sure that Tolkien refers to his spirit looking to the west and being rejected. And since Maira and Valarie are just a scale of power, I presume that his spiritual can dissipated, and thus ‘die’
Absolutely not. Their "win condition" was to obtain immortality, which is completely and absolutely impossible, even for the Valar to grant to them, so they had a zero percent chance to get what they wanted As for could they have conquered Valinor, probably not. The Valar were oathbound to not harm children of Iluvatar, but Valinor had a lot of elves who were much stronger than the ones living in Middle Earth because of where they lived. And if the Numenorians defeated the Elves and started wrecking the place, then the Valar or some of them probably would have intervened even if it broke their oath. So they were doomed nonetheless That was by design by the way: Sauron knew perfectly well that they had no hope against the Valar, he set them to the doomed affair precisely because he wanted the Valar to get rid of them for him
Hey Darth, what's with the prevalence of curses in the 1st age literature, but the absence of curses once the 3rd age is reached? My brain immediately thinks of Morgoth cursing Hurin, but with the exception of prophecies, I can't really recall any "curses" existing past the 1st age. If this does happen to be the case, is there an in-universe explanation?
Since (to my understanding at least) power and the power of individual’s is finite, and once it is spent, it is essentially taken away, can power be transferred or taken to increase the power of an individual?
I have a question: why did Morgoth even accept Fingolfin's challenge in the first place? If he was that evil and dishonorable, surely he could have just had Fingolfin killed and be done with it? (Unless the Valar were going to intervene somehow) or maybe he accepted because of his arrogance, which is possible given that's a major trait of his.
Because he would appear weak and cowardly to his captains. If you choose to have someone killed by other men instead of doing it yourself, that is seen as weak in societies with kings and lords and such. The orcs respect strength and Morgoth definitely would not appear so strong after refusing to accept the challenge against one elf. Not even to mention Sauron and his Balrogs who woukd be watching on.
Something I've always noticed is that almost every time someone faces and/or kills one of the greater beings, they die in the process even if they dragged them down with them. Ecthelion died killing gothmog, Fëanor died by Gothmoth's hand, Fingolfin died fighting Morgoth, Glorfindel died fighting and killing another one, Gandalf "died" fighting Durin's bane, Gil Galad and Elendil died fighting Sauron, Gollum technically killed Sauron by falling and destroying the ring, Grima died right after killing Saruman (though by hobbit arrows). I wonder if there's something behind that.
I think the lore is pretty specific about this topic. It is not explicitly stated, but it is logically implied, that for one of the ainur to truly die, it must pass out of Erú's mind altogether and by him eternally forgotten. They were manifestations of his thoughts, after all. A Valar cannot die, unless Erú forgets about the specific Valar. Meaning, technically a Valar can "die", as in being a state of eternal oblivion, but realistically it can't really happen because Erú can't forget about specific Valar as other ainur remembers these Valar, and so never goes out of Erús mind.
I don't believe that Ainur can be permanently killed. I would expect to see Sauron back for Dagor Dagorath as well as his master, for instance. That said, JRRT did say that the Númenoreans could cause "great harm". Does this mean to the land? Or are we waffling about dubiously canonical unfinished drafts again?
I'm at 00:00 (I'll watch the video ofc), but I can answer this one already: Answer is "No". Unless you are Eru. For the Ainur are of his mind and creation, thus only he can completely un-make an ainur. "but Gandalf did" body only. not the Balrog's soul.
Another inconsistency then. How come the other Valar did not become "lesser" by creating all the stuff on the world, repeatedly I might add considering Morgoth smashed most of their earlier creations? Why did only Morgoth lose substance by adding his own twist to things and by doing considerably less on top of that? If "creation" demands that any Ainur add their own substance to it, then the Valar should be decrepit and diminished after several cycles of failed worlds. A lot of the worldbuilding in the Silmarillion really doesn't hold up if you just take a closer look at it and that's presumably why Tolkien Sr. didn't think it was fit for release. I mean, another major thing is Feanor's rage at the death of his father. But aren't elves completely immortal, not just unaging, and Finwe therefore just awaiting reincarnation in the Halls of Mandos? Why would any elf therefore fear death when they know what it entails and that it won't stick? Just questions over questions.
All of those questions have answers, if you want to criticize someone's worldbuilding you need to actually understand it to begin with, otherwise you're complaining at your own headcanons.
During the tales of the LOTR or even 1st age the vala had to make themselves physical to affect the physical world for the most part. So when they do this they become killable. Morgoth was the only one who was trying to change the physical world while the rest lived in aman.
The short answer is no, unless you are talking about Morgoth. He alone of the Valar incarnated himself so thoroughly that he was bound to flesh by putting so much of his power into the fabric of Arda. In fact, I'm fairly sure that the Valar "killed" his body before kicking his spirit out into the Void.
no. you can deprive them of all their power so they're just a very powerless shade, or you can throw them into the abyss... for hopefully eternity. that's about it.
If I remember right, the worst is that loose their power and become like Spector just wondering here and there. And no they don’t have a Transvanian accent.
i think if one kills morgoth, the entire arda is destroyed because he placed all his life essence in it kill manwe and arda loses an atmosphere kill varda and arda loses any source of light kill ulmo and the waters of arda becomes stale kill yavanna and all plant life dies
Can a Valar die? Sort of. Could Fingolfin have killed Morgoth? No. Morgoth was one of the most powerful of the Valar even after his fall. It took everything the other Valar had to defeat him. Fingolfin was a great fighter. He saw the light of the two trees. But he wasn't strong enough to kill Morgoth.
Well technically no Valar and Maiar are immortal beings Their physical forms can be destroyed and their spirits damaged and impotent or imprisoned But not to cease to exist Sauron upon losing his Ring, lost his ability to exist in the physical world and was impotent and lost Morgoth had to be sealed in the void until the end of days Especially how he bound his spirit to Arda as his Ring, which even though sealed his evil influenced the world, and would always be that way until the current world is destroyed So short answer is no, really Maiar and Valar can only be defeated and have their physical bodies destroyed and cast out of the physical world
How can you kill a Valar? What a grand and intoxicating innocence!
how do you get intoxicated on someone else's grand innocence?
@@nyarlathotep1743 By being able of understanding methaphors
@@nyarlathotep1743it’s a meme
@@nyarlathotep1743 address your question to Mr Dagoth Ur
@@RMC1989im a god !!!, how can you kill a good eheh
A wise man once said, “so you’re telling me there’s a chance!”
Another thing about the Numenoreans fighting in Valinor is that the elves could be reincarnated after being killed and sent back out there if the Valar wished. It would have been many more waves of elves (depending on how many of them would want to keep fighting or remain in the halls of Mandos). As powerful as the Numenoreans had become their numbers would eventually dwindle in a situation like that with no hope for reinforcements.
What I gathered was that all the Valar (not just Melkor) expended the vast majority of their power by the time of the Battle of the Powers. While they once battled with Melkor over the formation of the world, their works are now permanently marred. The best example of this is Yavanna who, without the Silmarils, is not able to create the two trees again. In Tolkien's world, as time passes, both evil and good decrease in power.
Yavanna already explains in the Silmarilion why she cannot recreat the Trees. It is because it was such a grand work that she could only make it once. This theory I find to be unfounded. Melkor is the only Valar specifucally stated to have lost strength. This is supported by the fact that he feared the idea of fighting Fingolfin. No other Valar are stated to have expended their will like this nor experience fear.
I agree on exactly this point you are making. The Ainur at the shaping of Arda were extremely powerful beings that could raise mountains, change shape in an instant etc, but as time passed, they exhausted their powers. Melkor/Morgoth most of all and deliberately, but to some degree it goes for all of them.
I would even say they were all generally "incarnate" by some time in the 1st or 2nd age, and no longer completely beyond comprehension. I think Sauron had this special power to assume any form up until a point, and sea gods like Ulmo and Ossë for natural reasons. But as I usually frame it, why would Manwë need his eagles as intelligence gatherers over Middle-Earth, if he could just float over there and take a peek by himself?
Perhaps slightly more precise on that last point, evil and good decrease over time yes, but not The Good. Eru Iluvatar is the ultimate source of life, power and existence and is the ultimate good. He has the power to create life via the Flame Imperishable, truly resurrect like with Gandalf the White (and possibly Glorfindel as well) and empower limitlessly. His creations are limited when independent from Him but may be restored and strengthened by Eru should He will it. However, evil is a corruption, cannot create by itself and inherently opposed to Eru. This distinction is why despite being godlike beings, all of the Ainur including the Valar are ultimately angelic beings and Eru, the One, who is Iluvatar, Father of all, is indeed the one true God in the Legendarium.
@@rcbmmines4579 You are putting too much Christian theology into the equation, were it is not intended.
In his most important statement on the intentions with his wider Legendarium, Letter 131, please read:
"But an equally basic passion of mine ab initio was for myth (not allegory!) and for fairy-story, and above all for heroic legend on the brink of fairy-tale and history, of which there is far too little in the world (accessible to me) for my appetite....
... [feel free to read the missing part]...
Of course there was and is all the Arthurian world, but powerful as it is, it is imperfectly naturalized, associated with the soil of Britain but not with English; and does not replace what I felt to be missing. For one thing its 'faerie' is too lavish, and fantastical, incoherent and repetitive. For another and more important thing: it is involved in, and explicitly contains the Christian religion."
@@henrikg1388 With all due respect, I believe you’re the one not putting enough credit to Tolkien’s Catholic Christian beliefs nor his intentions. Do not mistake his incorporation of those beliefs for allegory, or contradictory to his love for mythology. As he told C.S. Lewis, Christianity is the ultimate and one true myth. This was part of how he convinced him to no longer be an atheist, though to his dismay, he chose the Anglican Church. Nevertheless I point you to this famous excerpt from Letter 142, please read:
“The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision.”
Tolkien himself admits he did it unconsciously at first, for indeed he wanted to make an authentic “subcreation” that reflected the truths of reality, and when he realized the inevitability of his faith influencing that world, he then deliberately did so as he constantly revised it with his faith in mind. Divine providence is something he touches on often in his Legendarium.
For background, you must understand how deeply Catholic Tolkien really was. Not only did he convert C.S. Lewis, he converted his wife as well. He was actually raised by a Priest after his mother passed, and his first son was named after both his father and that Priest, and that son went on to become a Priest as well. Tolkien has also written on his devotions to the Eucharist and the Blessed Virgin Mary. IIRC he once compared Gandalf visually to St. Joseph. He contributed to the New Jerusalem Bible translation, and also insisted on responding in traditional Ecclesiastical Latin in Mass even after Vatican II allowed the ordinary form to be done in the vernacular. The faith was everywhere and in everything in his life and deeds.
Lastly, it is also important to understand Catholicism specifically, and to a certain extent other more traditional denominations such as the Eastern Orthodox and Anglican Churches. We attribute to the one true God only true infinite power, wisdom etc. and true worship for God through the sacraments. The existence of other beings (supernatural or human) deserving of reverence, participating in the world, serving His will and capable of intercession is an important part of the faith, one modern Protestant denominations misunderstand as divine worship. Generally also, the Abrahamic faiths do not assert all pagan gods are mere fictions, as Scriptures often allude to them being in reality angels mistaken as gods, or fallen angels posing as them. A common traditional interpretation of the Plagues in Exodus for example was God defeating the “gods” of Egypt by turning their powers back on them.
Tulkas vs the Numenorian army could have been fun.
(think an angry Obelix vs a Roman Legion.)
Tulkas would definitely have the power to defeat the army of Numenor, but he was oathbound to not harm any of the children of Iluvatar, and therefore didn't want to intervene
@@exantiuse497 Indeed, thus Mandos asked Eru to intervene, though should Eru have responded with "do what you need", it's kind of probable that the Valar would just close up the mountain ranges and left a tiny strip of land where the army of the numenorians landed a proverbial hell-hole with awful weather and little hope for survival, for the the love of the children of Eru Illuvatar was still within the Valar, thus harming them would not have been in their thoughts. (I mean, the Valar is all-mighty within the universe, they could basically lift the entire army, ships included, and plopp them back onto Numenor) (oh, and I said "within", their actions throughout since creation have been very restrained with little of their true might shown, and also "within" as though they are all-powerful within, they are but a small reflection of the mind of Eru, for though they are truly mighty, their power in comparison to Eru is akin to them being a drop, versus an infinite ocean. Like a 1D dot versus a multiverse that never ends in scope)
ils sont fous ces Númenóréens!
the secret potion didnt made you unvulnerable to falcatas and pilums
... Maybe... I mean Morgoth nearly was killed by a literal embodiment of a black hole, Ungoliant
People forget just how different UnGoliant was from virtually anything else in Tokien's Legendarium. I wonder if so-called "creatures of the void" are actually capable of killing a Maiar outright. Probably only in just body, but possibly not. What if UnGoliant consumed, say, Goldberry?
Ungoliath consumed way more than Goldberry by drinking entirely the very life force of the two trees, the crown achievement never to be repeated by the goddess/ Valier of life Yavanna.
Another thing I wonder is if it was even possible for the corrupted numenorians under Sauron to even try to make a foothold for an invasion once they reached Valinor
I think that the elves living in Valinor, would be stronger than the Numenoreans, although less in number.
Eventually the Elves would destroy the Numenorean host and then build a Deathstar to destroy Numenor itself.
Only if Eru wanted them to for some reason.
@@ulbingelias6894on one hand I really agree. On the other, to my understanding eru directly stepped in to destroy numenor. That's such a huge step from him that it makes me think there was a very major danger there.
@@kirtmanwaring3629 well the idea is would it be possible for them to establish a foothold in Valinor even if Eru never intervened
@@IStealButterdToast Eru always intervenes, the ∠ world itself and everyone in it was a pretty massive intervention and nothing happens, ever, that isn’t furthering his grand design. You can agree or disagree, I happen to be agnostic bordering on atheist in real life but that's how Arda works. . If he wanted them to, they would as I said.
Darth G has the best ideas for vids about middle earth.
Thanks for yet another question I never thought about, but now I need answers for..
I mean if Fingolfin can Morgoth a limp well then to quote a famous film "If it bleeds we can kill it" its just very hard to kill the guy because he has a lot of power.
GET TO DA GREY HAVENS!
Of course, when Morgoth had poured his essence into the world, he also greatly weakened his power and bound himself to his physical form, so I think of him as an exception.
Well, you can't really even kill one of the Maiar, so one of the Valar... Seems pretty impossible.
@@keithklassen5320 both Gandalf and Saruman got killed tho. What happened to them after that was just up to Manwe probably. So what does it mean to die anyhow ?🤔
Then that is the recepy. To kill one they must first be weaken and become more physical
Morgoths spirit still exists in the void. No creature with consciousness can be completely destroyed, their spirits will always exist, unless Eru can unmake them.
We also need to remember, Morgoth made Arda into his own "Ring", meaning that for as long as there is world, he will remain and will come back eventually, which is what happens during the Dagor Dagorath, Turing giving him the last blow, and with Arda gone and remade, we can presume he is gone for good, or at least an spirit like Sauron, without form nor the ability to interact with anyone anymore
"Killing" means different than "completely annihillating so not even a spirit remains". In Tolkien's lore, men can absolutely be killed, but their spirit is not destroyed and will depart the world to an unknown fate. And elves can be killed, which caused their spirit to go to halls of Mandos. In both cases the words kill/death can be used, so I'd say it's not inaccurate to say Morgoth can be and was killed, even if his spirit still exists in the void
@@exantiuse497 Oh no I understand it, but in this case I believe the final fate of Morgoth will be the same as that of Sauron: An inmortal, invisible spirit with no power to talk, interact or affect the world, just... exist
@@fildariusv7045 After the end of the Dagor Dagorath, Arda would be remade into the unmarred form that was originally intended, thus removing the taint Morgoth introduced into it.
I believe Ilúvatar could do just that although whether he ever would is another question entirely.
Thank you for that video! I see people claiming the Valar were afraid and asked Eru to intervene because they themself were to weak to destroy the Numenorians.
Dagor Dagorath's ambiguousness aside, no Ainu can ever truly die. Thus is the nature of Eru's guarantee of souls with free-will, and as the true life of Ainur are but spirits, they are true immortals (incarnate Ainur getting as close as possible to death as is possible for them).
It all depends on what "death" means. If it means complete eradication so that nothing remains, not even a spirit, then no sentient creature can be "killed". If it means the spirit leaves the world, then only Men (and possibly Dwarves, the lore isn't clear on them) can "die", but Elves cannot. If it means the body being destroyed which releases the spirit, regardless of what happens to the spirit afterwards, then everyone that has a physical form can "die"
The video is about physical death.
@exantiuse497 that is why I mentioned true life. For an Ainu, their bodies are raiments unless incarnate. Their original state and natural state is purely spiritual, unlike the Children which are a union of body and spirit.
@tiltskillet7085 Something which is largely meaningless (beyond reduction of power and trauma) to an Ainu's life. They are not like the Children, their lives are not of a union between material and spiritual, they are spirits that form bodies as raiment to interact.
But, what happens to Saruman at the end of return of the King?
He turns into smoke, which drifts westward as if to return to Valinor, but is blown away and dissipated by the wind.
He was rejected by Illuvatar and killed.
In general, it is possible to wound and beat Ainur in combat, but it is far easier to kill their physical forms then to destroy their spirits, which is a far harder nut to crack.
It is theorically possible to kill the physical form of the Valar, but good luck pulling it off!
Granted, Fingolfin came the closest of pulling it off against Morgoth, but Morgoth only had a fraction of of his power when their fight happened, and Fingolfin was the Mightiest Elf of his time, and Fingolfin still died for his troubles...
Morgoth getting his ass beat by Fingolfin is like one of us being supplexed by an ant.
I have always said, Not unless Eru want's/allows them to.
The advice at the end of the video keeps getting sounder and sounder. I approve.
I hope you never run out of video ideas bro
He said "Morgoth's taint..." Yes, the 12-year-old child just came out.
I like your sub series like mysteries of Middle-Earth and here's an idea for another series "Creatures of Middle Earth" like wargs, Mumakill, Great Eagles, the creatures pulling Grond, the flying things of the Nazgul, Vampires, werewolves etc. Werewolves especially interest me as Gandalf says as the Council of Elrond that werewolves were still in Sauron's service but for the entire three books nobody encounters or claims to have seen one not even the rangers of Ilithien who would most likely be the ones dealing with them. So are they extinct like the vampires seemingly are or are they still around? Maybe one of Tolkien's notes that you have read could shed some light on it.
I never read the books apart from listening to bits of the stories in lore on TH-cam, so the topic of werewolves and vampires in Tolkien always confused me, are they like werewolves in vampires in real-world mythology where they're humans that get cursed to live as monsters or they just monstrous animals? Because the latter is the info I got and that would annoy me that Tolkien wouldn't use their humanoid aspects but still call them werewolves and vampires.
I'm pretty sure the Fellowship was attacked by Werewolves in Hollin
To paraphrase what the Valar said to Feanor "It is not within you to kill Melkor if you were created a being many times more powerful than you are". Can't find the exact quote. Answers the question without the video. (this was after he already sent much of his power into Arda)
If Fingolfin had a sensu bean we’d have found out by God. Super Sayjin Elf Lord 🫡
I've wondered if Morgoth ever experienced death anxiety. I feel like he felt mortal in a way, being the only Vala to know fear. Having lost the ability to reshape his body, and having persistent wounds, surely he had to know his body could be destroyed. He was definitely afraid of fighting Fingolfin, at least, and until then Im not sure if anyone thought he could even be harmed.
Almost makes you think what would happen if Beren decided to try to end Morgoth as he slept instead of stealing the Silmaril.
What an interesting thought! He had this nasty dagger Angrist, why not shove into Morgoth's eye or artery?
I'm almost positive, especially since he was able to wound his leg permanently, that if he had managed to cut Morgoths throat, then yes, he could have killed him. (That being forcing his spirit to leave his physical body) Morgoth had been in that body for a very long time at this point.
thanks for the video really cool topic and Orome is badass
Does anyone else ever want him to touch on who would win type of scenarios? Almost like comic or movie character match ups? Could 3rd age Gondor conquer all the dwarves and elves at their height of power?
Could numenor at their height take on the hidden elven kingdoms of the first age ?
Then simpler ones such as Rohan vs Lorien or dale vs Mirkwood. Turin vs fingolfin. I think it you run out of ideas some things like this would get you back into counting the amount of troops, technology , warfare and population which u seem to love. Thanks
I was told by many adults in my life that those kinds of "who would win" comparison scenarios are pointless, unanswerable, miss the purpose of the text, and demonstrate a fundamentally immature mind.
Now that I am an adult, I still want to know all the answers to your questions.
Yea you’re probably right but why else are we so interested in a made up world if it doesn’t resonate with something real in us. I like the same what ifs for our own history too, let’s hope we get some videos.
I guess I never realized that Morgoth became purely physical. I knew that he had divested himself ofca great deal of hus essence, so that he could corrupt Middle Earth, the Orcs, the Dragons, and other monsters he twisted, but I definitely still assumed that he was a spirit; just maybe a spirit like Sauron, who also "lost" something, when several of his physical forms were killed, despite still lingering. In much the same way a diminished Sauron still lingered, so long as the Ring exists, I assumed Morgoth would continue to exist so long as this world dis, with so much of him tied up in it. As for not wanting to "die" I assumed it might be more losing face, since he was supposed to be so powerful, and, later on, knowing that if he was bested, even if he she'd his form, the Silmarils would remain with that firm, and he'd lose them, too.
I get that, in this case, "death" and unbeing are different things, so we still aren't saying his eternal center would permanently disappear, but it still seems odd that he CAN die, when there shouldn't be any reason for his class of being to have that "ability". It's a writing choice I really liked from David Eddings. In his book, the evil God Torak makes a nuisance of himself, but even the heroes can't do anything about it, as gods are basically inviolate. Only they can hurt one another, and only Torak actually would, so he gets off, but he stole an object from outside the world, and IT has the power to break these rules. When he uses it, it injures him; burning off his hand, to the wrist, abd boiling out one of his eyes, and continuing to burn, though not consume, ever after. It doesn't really keep hurting Torak; it did its thing to punish him, but the deal is he can't physically heal; as a God, he is considered invulnerable, and so the world, or his father UL, never granted him the "ability" of healing, so he can't. The Valar feel more made for purpose, so it always seems odd to me that anything beneath them can harm them, because why would Eru Illuvatar do that? If they were following the script, there'd be no reason for the ageless, immortal beings to feel pain, or know injury. That's why the Children can feel those things, and part of what makes them different. Or at least that's pointless thoughts that have gone through my head.😊
Tolkien defines death as the separation of the spirit and the body. The Valar and Maiar could not die unless they chose to take a physical form.
What happens to the elves who return to valinor? Do they all end up living on Tol Eressea? Like, do the Vanyar go 'So.. what's middle earth like?' I've always been curious about this aspect of the lore. Galadriel reuniting with her father would be an interesting such perspective
No,I can not
Same
Yes you can. I BELIEVE IN YOU.
Honestly the King’s Men must have forgotten a great deal of their own history when they started worshiping Morgoth.
I mean the existence of Numenor is directly tied to the defeat of Morgoth.
Did they forget why they were given the island?
Such was their pride that they thought themselves great enough to do the impossible.
Hi Darth!
"Somehow, Morgoth returned..."
I think the most a coporeal being in Middle Earth could hope to accomplish would be to destroy a Vala's physical form.
Though this would probably be so difficult as to be all but impossible.
You can kill a Valar……. You just need a giant can of “whoop a$$.” 😂😂😂😂
When it comes to invading Aman, forget the ability to appear in whatever form you want, do you _really_ want to be fighting beings that can literally raise mountains with a wave of their hands?
I have always believed it's possible but only for Men. Turin aside, Men's fates are not bound to Arda and so the Valar's authority over them is not absolute.
An Elf could never do it because they are bound to Arda which the Valar are supreme within.
I would love to see a story where Morgoth comes back in the current age, and what humans would even try to do
It's actually not implausible canonically. Dagor Dagorath is prophesied in-universe, and since Tolkien intended his world to be our world it could well happen in the present day.
@@mam162 What if it happened in our current time, and we tried to nuke Morgoth? 😂
I imagine a similar concept with Sauron: what if he was never defeated and still ruled the world currently day? I imagine it would be like 1984 on steroids. Morgoth if he returned would definitely utilize technology and would probably take over the internet
Morgoth might try push through the door of night to return only to be pushed back out by the ainur that watched over the gates.
Ainur in spiritual form can still take emotional damage.
Fuckin great topic Lord Gandalf!
What would happen if a Valar died? Would it be a god of war situation where the world is directly effected, such as if Manwe died, would the sky erupt? If Yavanna died, would plants die etc? Probably not as Eru wouldn't allow that to effect the world, as by the end of the second age and every age post third age, the valar don't even interact with the world directly anymore, so would any effect happen at all? Would Morgoth's body be destroyed forever if Fingolfin won?
I'm 99% sure that if a Vala was killed basically nothing would happen. As I understand it, Valar do not maintain or uphold the world, they basically just made it and then hung around at Valinor for the rest of time. So if you killed one, that Vala wouldn't be around anymore/would be too weak to do anything, so they wouldn't be able to affect the world anymore but what they already did would remain
Arda existed before the Valar moved into it. And while it was the Ainulindalë that provided the "blueprint" for Arda, it was Ilúvatar that actually brought it into existence.
I think it is very much possible.
The way Morgoth and Sauron diminished was not special. All Ainur loose power by using it to affect the physical realm. We see this with Yavanna - she originally created the Two Trees of Valinor, but she was unable to re-make them once they were destroyed. In principle, it should be possible trick/force an Ainur to waste their power to a point they become mortal.
Is it realistically possible to trick them like that? Presumably each Vala is too smart and clever to fall for such a scheme, but I've always seen them as naive and unaware of how evil operates, so maybe it can be done.
@@General12th Ainur aren't capital G gods. They are fallible people with limited perspectives, emotions and personalities, that make mistakes and don't always learn from them.
For instance, Morgoth was not the first one to "create" an entire race in mockery of the elves. Aule did it first when he, in his impatience, created the dwarves.
@@KohuGalyyeah, he did realize his mistake and let Eru sort things out but the fact he made that mistake at all shows the Valar are not infallible
really makes no sense to have these debates in Tolkien's universe with all the soft magic. The Ainur aren't beings with a power meter that gets depleted, they just do things that fit their purpose and destiny, as given by Eru.
'If it bleeds we can kill it'
This was cool, thanks
Small correction for the istari. They weren’t simply taking on the form of old men, they were actually incarnated into the bodies of old men.
What about the Valaraukar? What happened to the Balrogs that were "killed" in the First Age wars?
I smell another Darth Gandalf video.
@@derekfortner4008 I'd love it. Even though a comment answer would be enough for me :)
No, but you can shove them through the Door of Night
Actually, what would happen if Eru shoved a Vala through the Door, body and all? Would their body wither and die on the other side until only the spirit remained? Would it be killed instantly? What about an elf or a human?
I wish we knew more about what the other side of the Door was like. I assume it's a great black void with only the barest of platforms to stand on and only the faintest of light seeping through the cracks in the Door. Probably deathly boring if you're alone like Morgoth was.
The Numenoreans trying to fight the Valar would be something like Xerxes or Caligula fighting against a body of water.
Imagine the soldiers of Ar Pharazon fighting against the wind or against an earthquake or against the rain. Nor really doable, is it?
I dont think anything of the world could kill a spirit. But Ungoliant could and Eru also could unmake them I think. Depending on the nature of the nameless things maybe they could also.
Maybe I missed it, but I think you bypassed a perfect example to support your argument. When Solomon is killed in the scouring of the shire, I’m pretty sure that Tolkien refers to his spirit looking to the west and being rejected. And since Maira and Valarie are just a scale of power, I presume that his spiritual can dissipated, and thus ‘die’
You should consider a video comparing and contrasting Middle-Earth entities with mythological gods and goddesses in the real world.
So the attack on the Valar from Numenor had no chance of winning?
Absolutely not. Their "win condition" was to obtain immortality, which is completely and absolutely impossible, even for the Valar to grant to them, so they had a zero percent chance to get what they wanted
As for could they have conquered Valinor, probably not. The Valar were oathbound to not harm children of Iluvatar, but Valinor had a lot of elves who were much stronger than the ones living in Middle Earth because of where they lived. And if the Numenorians defeated the Elves and started wrecking the place, then the Valar or some of them probably would have intervened even if it broke their oath. So they were doomed nonetheless
That was by design by the way: Sauron knew perfectly well that they had no hope against the Valar, he set them to the doomed affair precisely because he wanted the Valar to get rid of them for him
Hey Darth, what's with the prevalence of curses in the 1st age literature, but the absence of curses once the 3rd age is reached? My brain immediately thinks of Morgoth cursing Hurin, but with the exception of prophecies, I can't really recall any "curses" existing past the 1st age. If this does happen to be the case, is there an in-universe explanation?
Since (to my understanding at least) power and the power of individual’s is finite, and once it is spent, it is essentially taken away, can power be transferred or taken to increase the power of an individual?
Numenor invades, Ulmo opens a hole.
I have a question: why did Morgoth even accept Fingolfin's challenge in the first place? If he was that evil and dishonorable, surely he could have just had Fingolfin killed and be done with it? (Unless the Valar were going to intervene somehow) or maybe he accepted because of his arrogance, which is possible given that's a major trait of his.
Because he would appear weak and cowardly to his captains. If you choose to have someone killed by other men instead of doing it yourself, that is seen as weak in societies with kings and lords and such. The orcs respect strength and Morgoth definitely would not appear so strong after refusing to accept the challenge against one elf. Not even to mention Sauron and his Balrogs who woukd be watching on.
No more than you can kill a stone, you may pulverize it into dust, one particle will always still remain.
Something I've always noticed is that almost every time someone faces and/or kills one of the greater beings, they die in the process even if they dragged them down with them. Ecthelion died killing gothmog, Fëanor died by Gothmoth's hand, Fingolfin died fighting Morgoth, Glorfindel died fighting and killing another one, Gandalf "died" fighting Durin's bane, Gil Galad and Elendil died fighting Sauron, Gollum technically killed Sauron by falling and destroying the ring, Grima died right after killing Saruman (though by hobbit arrows). I wonder if there's something behind that.
I think the lore is pretty specific about this topic. It is not explicitly stated, but it is logically implied, that for one of the ainur to truly die, it must pass out of Erú's mind altogether and by him eternally forgotten. They were manifestations of his thoughts, after all. A Valar cannot die, unless Erú forgets about the specific Valar. Meaning, technically a Valar can "die", as in being a state of eternal oblivion, but realistically it can't really happen because Erú can't forget about specific Valar as other ainur remembers these Valar, and so never goes out of Erús mind.
My head canon is that Eru took their immortality away as punishment for transgressions.
I’ll note that in the Prophecy of Mandos, it is stated that Morgoth would be killed in the last battle by the resurrected Turin Turambar.
Morgoth was a beast! A rated R horror movie about him would be bad A
I imagine the battle with the Valar would have been like fighting with Griffith's Band in their apostle forms 🥲
I don't believe that Ainur can be permanently killed. I would expect to see Sauron back for Dagor Dagorath as well as his master, for instance.
That said, JRRT did say that the Númenoreans could cause "great harm". Does this mean to the land? Or are we waffling about dubiously canonical unfinished drafts again?
I'm at 00:00 (I'll watch the video ofc), but I can answer this one already: Answer is "No". Unless you are Eru. For the Ainur are of his mind and creation, thus only he can completely un-make an ainur. "but Gandalf did" body only. not the Balrog's soul.
Another inconsistency then. How come the other Valar did not become "lesser" by creating all the stuff on the world, repeatedly I might add considering Morgoth smashed most of their earlier creations? Why did only Morgoth lose substance by adding his own twist to things and by doing considerably less on top of that? If "creation" demands that any Ainur add their own substance to it, then the Valar should be decrepit and diminished after several cycles of failed worlds.
A lot of the worldbuilding in the Silmarillion really doesn't hold up if you just take a closer look at it and that's presumably why Tolkien Sr. didn't think it was fit for release.
I mean, another major thing is Feanor's rage at the death of his father. But aren't elves completely immortal, not just unaging, and Finwe therefore just awaiting reincarnation in the Halls of Mandos? Why would any elf therefore fear death when they know what it entails and that it won't stick? Just questions over questions.
All of those questions have answers, if you want to criticize someone's worldbuilding you need to actually understand it to begin with, otherwise you're complaining at your own headcanons.
What you said morgoth's taint?
Only Harry Goatleaf from Bree could be
Somehow, Morgoth returned.
During the tales of the LOTR or even 1st age the vala had to make themselves physical to affect the physical world for the most part. So when they do this they become killable. Morgoth was the only one who was trying to change the physical world while the rest lived in aman.
No, I couldn't 💀
I mean, I don’t think I could…
Ask Kratos that question and he will show you.
The short answer is no, unless you are talking about Morgoth. He alone of the Valar incarnated himself so thoroughly that he was bound to flesh by putting so much of his power into the fabric of Arda. In fact, I'm fairly sure that the Valar "killed" his body before kicking his spirit out into the Void.
"And when we finally kill the gods neither hell nor heaven awaits them because they made it to imprison US"
I couldnt. But Turin can, and as he is a man i´ll count that as a yes
Define “kill.”
Destroy the body so the spirit is forced out of it
@@exantiuse497 Doesn't apply to the Valar, they're spirits by nature who can take on physical bodies.
Their physical body isn't their true nature.
how about no
no. you can deprive them of all their power so they're just a very powerless shade, or you can throw them into the abyss... for hopefully eternity. that's about it.
I’m so so sorry but when you say Morgoth your accent makes me hear Mall goth and it cracks me up
ALR? You mean Ainur?
Edit: Yes, you said it correctly once. Struggling to get the pronunciation right the other times or what? 😄
"Morgoth's taint"? I think the Gaffer would have something to say about *that,* if you take my meaning....
Morgoth’s taint.. 🤣
We need more good fantasy taint.
SEASON 3 of RINGS OF POWER...."somehow morgoth retunrs":...
Yeah I think I could if I tried
Hehe, you said "Morgoths taint" ehehehe
If I remember right, the worst is that loose their power and become like Spector just wondering here and there. And no they don’t have a Transvanian accent.
If it bleeds, we can kill it!
"this was called Morgoth's taint"
Morgoth's what now?
I'm sorry I that's how I reacted, it was immature
Melkor...
No. Next question.
Clicked on just to say this: No
i think if one kills morgoth, the entire arda is destroyed because he placed all his life essence in it
kill manwe and arda loses an atmosphere
kill varda and arda loses any source of light
kill ulmo and the waters of arda becomes stale
kill yavanna and all plant life dies
Can you? No
I can, though.
dude, chill
Can a Valar die? Sort of. Could Fingolfin have killed Morgoth? No. Morgoth was one of the most powerful of the Valar even after his fall. It took everything the other Valar had to defeat him.
Fingolfin was a great fighter. He saw the light of the two trees. But he wasn't strong enough to kill Morgoth.
Well technically no
Valar and Maiar are immortal beings
Their physical forms can be destroyed and their spirits damaged and impotent or imprisoned
But not to cease to exist
Sauron upon losing his Ring, lost his ability to exist in the physical world and was impotent and lost
Morgoth had to be sealed in the void until the end of days
Especially how he bound his spirit to Arda as his Ring, which even though sealed his evil influenced the world, and would always be that way until the current world is destroyed
So short answer is no, really
Maiar and Valar can only be defeated and have their physical bodies destroyed and cast out of the physical world
No
My Guy, I really have started enjoying your videos and much appreciation for your efforts 😊 however......Your pronunciation leaves alot to be desired.
Well yes but actually no