I was interested in these amps and pre amps but I couldn't find any reviews until I found your channel. I'm looking into buying one soon, I am just still trying to decide. Thank you for taking the time to make these videos. I will keep watching as long as you keep making them.
@@ralex3697 They should not use the logo (although it is different) and the brand name. Other than that its a fair game as all the patents are long expired by now (if there were any to begin with) and the designs for that NAP amp are readily available on diy forums for many years now.
Hi Mr HiFi Zone. Are you aware that the two circuit boards that are close to the rear side (those with the Sanken transistors) are actually NOT involved with driving the speakers- They are used as a transistor-regulated and voltage stabilized power supply for the audio voltage and current amplification on the two circuit boards that are close to the front on the amp. This actually a very rare kind of a transistor-regulated power supply in between the basic power-supply - the two huge capacitors and the toroid transformer. You may read a lot more about this on the internet....
Yes that was my mistake. I think Ive corrected myself in the full review (but I may be wrong). I realized that by looking at the connection between boards later on :) Very uncommon!
Congrats on reaching 5000 subs buddy, I see great things for your channel because you're doing something that no one else is, giving audiophiles an opportunity to access high quality equipment at prices they can afford.
@@joemalone7385 can you share with us how did you come to the idea that the quality is high, and that it even exists? There was no single objective test or measurement was performed. There is no person on the earth, with calibrated golden ears, that can accurately measure quality of audio gear.
@@Anatoly_Panchenko Hi there! My reference setup is twin CA 851W running in dual mono bi-amp mode. You can easily find numbers and charts for these. My ears cant produce frequency charts and thd measurements but (as most of us) compare two sound sources and describe the relative differences between two different sound sources. My speakers (main rig) are Martin Logan Ascent I electrostat speakers. These are so transparent and precise, that if you'd record mouse farts you would be able to tell differences in mice age. Seriously, this is setup thats absolutely excellent on its own. And I have it not because its expensive - I owned more pricey gear in the past - but because its ridiculously good. We've had that conversation earlier: I dont need the AP at home, though I am more than happy to accept any donations towards it if you'd like to lead that. Also, not all, but many of the clones - especially those from Transaudio - get AP measurements from guys that produce them and you can find not only the numbers but also actual measurement screenshots in the offers. Wow, that was a long comment. Have a great day!
I hope one day to see one of these reviews side by side with the OG product. Either way, this does look built fairly well. I do not believe they can ask the price they do without using clone/fake components.
The way I see it the most expensive parts are chassis and transformer. We've had similiar discussion for JC2 clone preamp which uses Mundorf MKP caps. But Christian Schwarzbeck (check his channel) reached to Mundorf with photos and they confirmed these are legit, moreover they said that Chinese companies are ordering a lot of caps from them. All in all the parts are cheap. The labour, thats whats expensive in EU and US.
@@k4syx The Chinese work ethic is so incredibly noble, but when exploited its beyond sad to me. The middle road I think is buying these as unstuffed/unassembled kits, maybe that makes no difference either I dunno.
I got hooked on these Chinese clones. I just bought an NAC52 and NAP200 clone called the Yuan250DR, complete with a remote and 2x90W output. I don’t have high expectations; I just needed an amplifier for the bedroom with a remote. I know it’s okay because I had the chance to test it with a friend.
@@k4syx The sound had a natural overall balance, with accurate, clean bass and wide stereo imaging, offering a good sense of depth and height. Nothing stood out as extraordinary; everything was just perfectly balanced. It performed very well at lower volumes. My friend has an older revision, and Aliseller claims this version sounds very close to the original NAP250DR but with more power. I’ve just placed an order, though it hasn’t been dispatched yet. I’ll see how it turns out when it arrives.
Great vids. I'm going to try the little Naim Nap140 clone as its cheap, apparently pretty darn good, and its small so it will fit in my radio cabinet in the third system.
@@k4syx You bet! Based on the innards I would think I will like the sound over the class D stuff. I will give it a run in my main system with the Totem Sttafs and Totem Hawks to see how it fairs.
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Hi, I own this one for 2 years already. I must say that it cost me apart of the money, also some nerves at the beginning (fuse installed in the power socket got burned down several times before I replaced it with the one of higher value (luckily it solved the issue - there was no other hidden reasons for the fuse to burn.) It replaced HK3490 in my system, it is driven by rDac, and it drives JBL L880's. Soundwise, I would say that it bring a new life to my speakers in the upper range. Bass, I think HK3490 had more to say in this field (more power and detail). Generally speaking the way Nap clone presents the music to the listener, scenes imaging (comparing to HK) is far more interesting and more involving... It was interesting for me to hear your opinion regarding that particular one also in configuration with various speakers. Big thx for this review (and all remaining too, obviously :) )
Thanks and thanks for sharing your insights! As for the fuse its probably something they either fixed by now, or for your unit they have used something else by mistake. I can check value on the one inside my amp for reference :)
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@@k4syx I stopped at 4A. (Initially it was 2 or 2,5A .)
There are two types of these fuses, slow and fast, and fast tend to blow during startup when caps are charging - this gives high but very short current spike. Slow ones just do not react that fast. I wonder if they had just mistaken the type. I will check mine when I will get home.
I found out that if you want to brighten the sound , get rid of any ceramic caps and replace with silver mica. Also, the Mundorf silver/gold caps really bring out the mids and treble. If you can fit these op amps on the board, Sparkos makes some great sounding discrete op amps and voltage regulators. I know it sounds like a lot of work, but if your into DIY, you can get these Chinese amps sounding pretty damn nice.
Yhank you for your great reviews. The only suggestion I would make is to use a clip on microphone. With the current setup, your voice tends to wander from the right channel to the left. During the infrequent moments that there is a balanced stereo image, your voice is much more intelligible. Thanks!
@@sg1676 aaa thanks I haven't realized this may cause problems, I'm recording these with my phone with stereo mics and I'm sitting behind it, and moving here and there so I'll try to stay in one place in the future :)
Hi, thanks for this nice review. I just bought a used one on ebay and looking forward to my first test session. Got the version without xlr input, just rca. I opened it and it looks almost exactly the same, I could only find one difference. The Sanken parts are exactly the some but the ON transistors differ. In your Amp it's the "ON MJ15024G - BM2341" and in mine its the "ON MJ21196G - BM1129". I have definitly no clue about electronics so can someone tell wether it provides any difference in sound quality? If yes, is one of those better and what are the differences supposed to be? Besides this difference, it is a truely nice built amp. The only thing that bother is the use of a "naim" logo. Although they refer to the first release of the 250 in the 1970's they should not use a fake original logo. Already to a NAC152/NAP200 "clone" which is also a very nice integrated amplifier in sound which comes along without any "naim" on it. Nevertheless, I enjoyed really watching your video. Thanks a lot for the information you're providing.
Thanks! Yes the "logo" (its not exactly logo as it differs but STILL) is also bothering me too. As for transistors I guess that if they are correctly paired (which looks like they are) and the bias is set right they are fine. I know that some types differ, and some guys swear by some types over another, but I have to experience here (never compared ONs directly)
@@sunnykfc I think it's not as old as it wasnt available that long ago, I would target something around 2000 as I think patents (if there were any) expire after something like 25-30y. So I don't think they are building modern vintage now (as opposed to 1969 JLHood designs that are still great, probably even better now!)
Nice presentation .The "clone" looks like a new model outside and at least 10 years old inside. This quirky cable managment is exactly the same as it was in the old units. The whole construction and distribution looks sound.For the money absolutely worth it. Let's not forget ...the Original is 7500€ at the moment 😮. BTW Naim offered the amplifier with Cinch and/or XLR connectors as far as I remember.
Yes they build them based on earlier designs that were reverse engineered for quite a few years (or decades) ago and are freely floating on diy forums. As for the price difference - does it sound 15 times worse? I highly doubt :D
If you really want to see what the clones have I recommend upgrading the rca sockets and binding posts to Xangsane silver. Added quite a bit of clarity for me w/ my first watt PCF F7 clone which, can be had for under $350 right now w/ coupons.
Perhaps it was reviewed using a Naim NAC52 clone as it was partly mentioned in the description. Both have been the popular combination among Naimees. By general consensus, Naim' sonic traits are emphasized more into musically engaging listening experience with strong PRAT aspects than being analytical to fit into audiophile niches or jargons such as depth, inner/layer details etc which are less priority factors among the majority of music lovers/enthusiasts. Pick your choice of groups. To each of his/her own.
PRAT is an acronym for Pace, Rhythm and Timing as the popular terms of evaluating a listening experience for a closer mimicking to music lesson/learning. Is HiFi supposed to bring us an engaging musical experience more or merely sonic castle in the air? Go figure yourself.
@@solomonstewart1025 PRAT is what makes an amp musical and alive. It will open up much more music for you to enjoy, that is made meh... By amps that do not swing.
@@k4syx 5.5 Inch Fever Passive Bookshelf HiFi Speaker Two-Way 100W Professional Audio 8Ω Monitor Speakers Sound Box High Power Speaker. There was a comment on the product page from you "These are insane.. ordering second set right away. Just wow and WOW. There will be a full review in my HiFi Zone YT channel, definitely". Thats how I found your channel.
@@srilanka.paradise Ah yes THESE! Yes so the smaller ones, I got them like a two weeks ago (when I've done this comment and second order). They are finishing burn in now as I was on business trip last week and there will be a review soon!
It would be interesting to compare these clone amps to a fully serviced original version to see how different they sound. Presumably the original should sound better due to better matched/quality components but I wonder by how much?
That would be excellent opportunity! I'd love to do that, unfortunately I dont have anyone near me with NAP250 and getting loaner from shop is out of the question (too expensive)
Thanks for the review, it's very informative. One thing I have noticed however is that none of these Chinese amps seem to have a 12v trigger input, which is something that I personally find very useful. Do you think it would be possible either to get a seller to add this feature or for someone else to add it later to any of these amps?
I think its totally doable as these are DIY builds. I myself use for that purpose Tuya smart power plugs - and my phone + dedicated nice remote. Works as well and is dead, zero power usage when not used.
How does this NAP250 compare to FM300A for use with difficult 4ohm 86db Magnepan speakers and which one is smoother more velvet analog type sound for female vocals?
Thats actually a tough question, I would need to connect them both to my Ascents and compare them head to head. FM300A will have higher power so my guesstimate would be that one
@@k4syx I'm also leaning towards the FM300A due to higher power with maybe more capacitance/headroom/current. Wish someone on here would compare the two versions of the FM300A, single vs dual toroidal transformers, to see if it's worth the extra cost for dual over a single transformer. Thanks
What you describe sounds like a Naim design from memory. They need an inductive load and speaker cable, as they removed the zobel network from the output and will oscillate with capacitive loads. Naim were known for an involving wholistic sound, and not to analyse ever little bit of it. I think they were best used with rock rather than classical music. p.s the Valhalla 2 cable should be a good match for it.
In a general way it does remind me of my Unitiqute and NAP100 setup. It also was about fun, emotion and general picture, not about details or soundstage planes.
Having watched several of your reviews, i’ve now narrowed down my new amp options (partly due to their size) - to either the 933, a1 or this NAP 250. Did any of these 3 stand out as the best in terms of sound? (ignoring the power output)
They are on a very similiar level, but very different signatures. A1 would be airy and slightly warm, elegant, 933 is raw power and fun (great bass) and NAP250 is trading details for musicality, though it gets some back with 4Ohm loads. What kind of music would you be listening?
@ Thanks for taking the time to respond! It's just for a small kitchen set up with some OG LS50's so lots of power isn't needed - though the A1 could potentially struggle @ 8ohm / 85db. In terms of music, would be mainly acoustic/rock - and would probably put a warmer signature/smooth vocals at the top of the list, then bass next..
@@janicejacksonthethird Then your first choice could be A1 (as long as you will not listen very loud) then 933. 250 would be the last one as it shines with 4 Ohm loads, its not as good with 8ohm speakers
@ Thanks. I had initially ordered the 933 for the power difference, but have cancelled and ordered the A1 now! For the price I can always look at the 933 in future if more power is needed
Doubt this is to the latest 250 spec! Naim 250's were noted for their 'PRAT' performance. ie pace, rhythm and timing. In the 80's they were often linked with Linn Sara speakers which were a very low impedance load. Never seen a Naim amp with balanced XLR's fitted.
Great videos and descriptions. I found your channel recently. Most people making videos seem like salesmen. Your videos are informative without being biased. I'm looking for a clone amp to power some polk audio sda 2B. My research seems to be a speaker that needs high current and 120 to 150 watts with an amp that can dip below 4 ohms to reveal its potential. Do you have an opinion that would pair well with that type of speaker. I like spatial with nice imagining and warmth. Thank you for your detailed and informative videos. I'm now subscribed and paying attention to your channel.
Hi! Thanks :) Thats like on the edge - its probably a good pairing as they were able to drive my Logans very well (and these are demanding and really, really hard to drive properly) but if you could stretch your budget go for DartZeel clone I've reviewed as I consider it a better power amp.
Thanks for your content. Can I ask you how tò bypass the volume on the burmster 933. I know this Is not the right video but I can't get in touch with you. Thanks
I have to do a video on that. Its not complicated though not as simple as in other amps, as it would be good to do it proper way meaning without those long tracks on the pcb edge
Нет, за основу взята схема из середины 80-ых, поищите картинки с открытыми верхними крышками оригинальных nap 250. В семидесятых схема была более простой и расположение деталей другое.
Id say its a standard tech there :D Look at all other clones, they all use hot glue for LEDs in the front. Right now I expect to see that in every clone I review :)
I havent heard the Gallion. I know its very popular now, but I havent heard that one. However, most of these amps are trading blows with my dual Cambridge Audio 851W power amps running in mono bi-amp mode, and these were like 3000USD each.
I don't understand why these so called "clone" amplifiers have internals that looks so drastically different then what they are supposedly clones of? The transformer on the original is almost three times the size and there are 4 large caps as opposed to two....etc etc. Are they clones really in name and external looks only?
@@RUMBLEGO1 the expensive Dartzeel clones NHB268, NHB368, NHB508(=NHB468) are better than original but for a clone still very expensive, but comparing with prices of originals still cheap
@@Gypsyking64530 Ok, thanks! So we aren't talking about prices of amps being reviewed on this channel then. That makes sense because these are relatively inexpensive but their innards don't look anywhere near the originals from the few I A/B'd. How close do they sound to the originals. I would have no clue and would have to trust others ears and knowledge.
@@RUMBLEGO1 Actually the original Dartzeel had never made these type numbers: NHB268, NHB368. What the designer told me it is the same design as NHB108 but with much stronger power reserves than the original nhb108(existing type), so to my surprise it sounded really better than the original. Also the expensive NHB468 clone is really a world reference!!! Some even claimed better than the original very expensive Dartzeel mono amplifiers. The cheaper Chinese clones could be the best money can buy which often nearly equals the originals for much lesser money, sounding maybe a tiny bit different but that's not a bad thing:). Actually China's highend audio has made really HUGE advancements, unlike a few years ago, even me I was shocked having owned original very expensive Swiss made FM Acoustics myself.
The truth about this amp is that it has only 58W/8Ω and 85W/4Ω measured in reality. It has very small transformer in comparison to the original naim. Original weight (old version) 15,8kg and the "clone" 8,1kg. The specification given by the Chinese (90W/8Ω, 170W/4Ω) is just a lie and nonsense, typical to the Chinese so called "clones".
Still, it was able to drive my electrostats very well and that's a rare feat even for way more powerful stuff. Where are the measurements from? And for what amp exactly?
@@k4syx The same clone as yours. I gave the link but my answer was removed (maybe it is agains youtube rules?). My old friend audiophile, that maybe you know because his is Polish just like us ;) published the service measurements on his site and described also other problems with the NAP250 clone. Google "najlepsze odtwarzacze" and "NAP250 clone" and you will find it. As far as your subjective "powerfulness opinion" it stems from the fact, that electrostats (like ribbons, magnetostats) need matched character more that raw power, especially when lowest impedance is in higher regions in hybrid speaker.
@@marcinwasilewski5414 I know who are you talking about, I will surely read that as the trafo here is on the small side. If you gave direct link then these get removed by YT straight away :(
@@k4syx BTW you should check/regulation of zero point and bias in all your clones because the Chinese from these small factories do not care about these settings and often do not make them at all (!) Do you confirm that FM300A has bigger transformer? I saw the description 400W on it and it seems quite acceptable.
@@marcinwasilewski5414 Bigger than this one? Definetely. This one really is small, should make me suspicious earlier. Looks nice in this black cloth but its small all in all.
Speaker wires to the terminals bundled with wires running to the rectifier and input signals bundled with power cables is asking for trouble and that transformer looks too small for the output quoted. Pass.
Yes they are isolated well but still having them basically one on top of another asks for placing them in a very different way. Doable, and I may do a video on that in a future. Still, it sounds darn good. Probably even better with cables routed differently.
That small transformer can deliver 120-150w at best. So how that device can to deliver 2x90 is just unclear. Than if transformer can to deliver 250w by a magic, then there is a question: how heat of 180w amp dissipated, without heatsinks?! I personally own Blameless amp of Douglas Self, and i know how much heat can to produce 2x75w amp, running in efficient class B The proofing of the all above is a look at original NAP250. 1/3 of the internal volume of the original taken by the transformer, heatsinks instead of side walls. The original looks like well crafted amp, this one looks like attempt of the crooks that stoled naim’s brand name, to scam the buyers, by selling something, that not even similar to original, in terms of the quality
The given specs of Ali Express' NAP250 product listing shows: Output power: 90W per channel at 8 ohms and 170W per channel at 4 ohms. Power transformer: 400W customized pure copper wire black clothed.
Its using the chassis as a heatsink, the smaller heatsinks (U-shaped) are screwed back to the bottom plate. As for heat that depends also on the bias for transistors. But I do agree that this transformer is just to small. On the other hand I do not tend to listen at volume levels consuming 2x90 or 2x140W ;) I would happily accept if they would just tell the real data on transformer. I wouldnt call the manufacturers scammers or crooks. Design for that amp is freely available and had been for decades, as its an old design (still good though) and if youd buy this thinking youre getting real Naim then you're scamming yourself mostly. Having said that, as I said in the video, I am not ok with them using the name or logo (though it doesnt look the same at any rate)
@ @ of course 99% of the listeners will not pull the volume up to 90w average, but dynamic range of amp , and it ability to control the loudspeakers, depends on ability of amp deliver a power, on the other hand, those numbers in amp description used to pull the money out of the customer wallet and this is not so honest so much. To get an idea, how the 400w transformer looks like, you can to visit a toroidy pl or antec transformers. By the way, I’m sourcing transformers for my projects from the toroidy, and their service and quality just an excellent.
Built like it was in 1970... with old transistors and really long cable runs and then everything is "nicely" tied up in parallel. Man, it's almost 2025... or are the Chinese now asking us to clone an old tube radio from 1950? There are so many other good devices from 1980-2010... Restek, audiolabor, Krell, NAD,... they usually sound better too... but however a nice Review 👍🙏
Have to agree that the way Naim and this clone is built was not in the modern way but that's what gives them their particular sound which I have always thought as a slightly dry presentation but always good with rhythm.. input cap could be changed for something a bit more exotic which would help with the slight lack of air but otherwise best left alone cause it wouldn't be a Naim or a clone of a Naim wouldn't it... cheers
That would be probably true a decade ago. We've had that discussion under JC2 clone video, it's using Mundorf caps. Mundorf in Germany had confirmed that caps are real and also said they are selling a lot of their parts to China.
@@k4syx yeah thats great, i have a sa7800 that modded with a workarround, Vu tube is dead, but its driver board was ok, so i decided to get a pertinax board and i soldered 1206 smd leds from Lite-on, and it definietly looks like the originals, so im happy with it. I got cold white leds, and after the blue window, it looks like my TX-D1000 tuner's display (since that is in mint condition, and its fluorescent display is a beautiful bright blue display.)
Just don’t understand why anyone would buy one of these. It just won’t have the PRAT of a NAIM product nor work in harmony with their Pre amps. I certainly wouldn’t want to plus this unit a 252 / 282. A used 250DR can be bought for around £1700 and will be serviceable forever both by NAIM themselves and Indy’s like Class A.
I dont think anyone would use this one with real Naim. Its more DIY construction based on well known schematics so natural pairing would be DIY NAC52 or 152. I actually have the NAC52 with similiar chassis waiting for the review. As for PRAT - it does have that rhytm, drive and emotion that I loved in UnityQute and NAP20 I owned. I sold them finally due to seriuos lack of details that better speakers exposed :(
thanks for your videos, really looking forward to when you compare all the clones!
I was interested in these amps and pre amps but I couldn't find any reviews until I found your channel. I'm looking into buying one soon, I am just still trying to decide. Thank you for taking the time to make these videos. I will keep watching as long as you keep making them.
Disgraceful
I don’t support this.
Nothing "disgraceful" about it....and there are several tests of this machine here on YT.
@themountain59 I don't get why it's disgraceful, and if it is don't watch the video
Thanks!
@@ralex3697 They should not use the logo (although it is different) and the brand name.
Other than that its a fair game as all the patents are long expired by now (if there were any to begin with) and the designs for that NAP amp are readily available on diy forums for many years now.
Hi Mr HiFi Zone. Are you aware that the two circuit boards that are close to the rear side (those with the Sanken transistors) are actually NOT involved with driving the speakers- They are used as a transistor-regulated and voltage stabilized power supply for the audio voltage and current amplification on the two circuit boards that are close to the front on the amp. This actually a very rare kind of a transistor-regulated power supply in between the basic power-supply - the two huge capacitors and the toroid transformer. You may read a lot more about this on the internet....
Yes that was my mistake. I think Ive corrected myself in the full review (but I may be wrong). I realized that by looking at the connection between boards later on :)
Very uncommon!
Congrats on reaching 5000 subs buddy, I see great things for your channel because you're doing something that no one else is, giving audiophiles an opportunity to access high quality equipment at prices they can afford.
yeah, it is super cool.
@@joemalone7385 can you share with us how did you come to the idea that the quality is high, and that it even exists?
There was no single objective test or measurement was performed. There is no person on the earth, with calibrated golden ears, that can accurately measure quality of audio gear.
Thanks!
@@jungtarcph Thank you!
@@Anatoly_Panchenko Hi there!
My reference setup is twin CA 851W running in dual mono bi-amp mode. You can easily find numbers and charts for these.
My ears cant produce frequency charts and thd measurements but (as most of us) compare two sound sources and describe the relative differences between two different sound sources.
My speakers (main rig) are Martin Logan Ascent I electrostat speakers. These are so transparent and precise, that if you'd record mouse farts you would be able to tell differences in mice age. Seriously, this is setup thats absolutely excellent on its own. And I have it not because its expensive - I owned more pricey gear in the past - but because its ridiculously good.
We've had that conversation earlier: I dont need the AP at home, though I am more than happy to accept any donations towards it if you'd like to lead that. Also, not all, but many of the clones - especially those from Transaudio - get AP measurements from guys that produce them and you can find not only the numbers but also actual measurement screenshots in the offers.
Wow, that was a long comment.
Have a great day!
I hope one day to see one of these reviews side by side with the OG product. Either way, this does look built fairly well. I do not believe they can ask the price they do without using clone/fake components.
The way I see it the most expensive parts are chassis and transformer. We've had similiar discussion for JC2 clone preamp which uses Mundorf MKP caps. But Christian Schwarzbeck (check his channel) reached to Mundorf with photos and they confirmed these are legit, moreover they said that Chinese companies are ordering a lot of caps from them. All in all the parts are cheap. The labour, thats whats expensive in EU and US.
@@k4syx The Chinese work ethic is so incredibly noble, but when exploited its beyond sad to me. The middle road I think is buying these as unstuffed/unassembled kits, maybe that makes no difference either I dunno.
@@AllboroLCD Well one thing about the kits is that its more fun if you're into DIY and you can tune element quality. Thats two good things actually :)
I got hooked on these Chinese clones. I just bought an NAC52 and NAP200 clone called the Yuan250DR, complete with a remote and 2x90W output. I don’t have high expectations; I just needed an amplifier for the bedroom with a remote. I know it’s okay because I had the chance to test it with a friend.
Ive seen those, how does it sound?
@@k4syx The sound had a natural overall balance, with accurate, clean bass and wide stereo imaging, offering a good sense of depth and height. Nothing stood out as extraordinary; everything was just perfectly balanced. It performed very well at lower volumes.
My friend has an older revision, and Aliseller claims this version sounds very close to the original NAP250DR but with more power. I’ve just placed an order, though it hasn’t been dispatched yet. I’ll see how it turns out when it arrives.
@@EricEs-f6o Thank you!
Great vids. I'm going to try the little Naim Nap140 clone as its cheap, apparently pretty darn good, and its small so it will fit in my radio cabinet in the third system.
I've seen that one and its on my list! Its so small and so cheap that it can compete with D class amps :)
@@k4syx You bet! Based on the innards I would think I will like the sound over the class D stuff. I will give it a run in my main system with the Totem Sttafs and Totem Hawks to see how it fairs.
Hi, I own this one for 2 years already. I must say that it cost me apart of the money, also some nerves at the beginning (fuse installed in the power socket got burned down several times before I replaced it with the one of higher value (luckily it solved the issue - there was no other hidden reasons for the fuse to burn.) It replaced HK3490 in my system, it is driven by rDac, and it drives JBL L880's. Soundwise, I would say that it bring a new life to my speakers in the upper range. Bass, I think HK3490 had more to say in this field (more power and detail). Generally speaking the way Nap clone presents the music to the listener, scenes imaging (comparing to HK) is far more interesting and more involving...
It was interesting for me to hear your opinion regarding that particular one also in configuration with various speakers.
Big thx for this review (and all remaining too, obviously :) )
Thanks and thanks for sharing your insights!
As for the fuse its probably something they either fixed by now, or for your unit they have used something else by mistake. I can check value on the one inside my amp for reference :)
@@k4syx I stopped at 4A. (Initially it was 2 or 2,5A .)
There are two types of these fuses, slow and fast, and fast tend to blow during startup when caps are charging - this gives high but very short current spike. Slow ones just do not react that fast. I wonder if they had just mistaken the type. I will check mine when I will get home.
I found out that if you want to brighten the sound , get rid of any ceramic caps and replace with silver mica. Also, the Mundorf silver/gold caps really bring out the mids and treble. If you can fit these op amps on the board, Sparkos makes some great sounding discrete op amps and voltage regulators. I know it sounds like a lot of work, but if your into DIY, you can get these Chinese amps sounding pretty damn nice.
Its not a lot of work :) its a regular thing for improving you audio gear :)
Yhank you for your great reviews. The only suggestion I would make is to use a clip on microphone. With the current setup, your voice tends to wander from the right channel to the left. During the infrequent moments that there is a balanced stereo image, your voice is much more intelligible. Thanks!
@@sg1676 aaa thanks I haven't realized this may cause problems, I'm recording these with my phone with stereo mics and I'm sitting behind it, and moving here and there so I'll try to stay in one place in the future :)
Another good review! Looking forward to the ChiFi Speaker reviews!
Thanks!
Super review👏
Thanks!
Hi,
thanks for this nice review. I just bought a used one on ebay and looking forward to my first test session.
Got the version without xlr input, just rca. I opened it and it looks almost exactly the same, I could only find one difference.
The Sanken parts are exactly the some but the ON transistors differ.
In your Amp it's the "ON MJ15024G - BM2341" and in mine its the "ON MJ21196G - BM1129".
I have definitly no clue about electronics so can someone tell wether it provides any difference in sound quality?
If yes, is one of those better and what are the differences supposed to be?
Besides this difference, it is a truely nice built amp.
The only thing that bother is the use of a "naim" logo. Although they refer to the first release of the 250 in the 1970's they should not use a fake original logo.
Already to a NAC152/NAP200 "clone" which is also a very nice integrated amplifier in sound which comes along without any "naim" on it.
Nevertheless, I enjoyed really watching your video.
Thanks a lot for the information you're providing.
Thanks! Yes the "logo" (its not exactly logo as it differs but STILL) is also bothering me too.
As for transistors I guess that if they are correctly paired (which looks like they are) and the bias is set right they are fine. I know that some types differ, and some guys swear by some types over another, but I have to experience here (never compared ONs directly)
So they clone the 1970's version of the nap250? Oh i was about to buy one but i think i will buy the original DR version.😊
@@sunnykfc I think it's not as old as it wasnt available that long ago, I would target something around 2000 as I think patents (if there were any) expire after something like 25-30y.
So I don't think they are building modern vintage now (as opposed to 1969 JLHood designs that are still great, probably even better now!)
Nice presentation .The "clone" looks like a new model outside and at least 10 years old inside. This quirky cable managment is exactly the same as it was in the old units. The whole construction and distribution looks sound.For the money absolutely worth it. Let's not forget ...the Original is 7500€ at the moment 😮. BTW Naim offered the amplifier with Cinch and/or XLR connectors as far as I remember.
Yes they build them based on earlier designs that were reverse engineered for quite a few years (or decades) ago and are freely floating on diy forums.
As for the price difference - does it sound 15 times worse? I highly doubt :D
If you really want to see what the clones have I recommend upgrading the rca sockets and binding posts to Xangsane silver. Added quite a bit of clarity for me w/ my first watt PCF F7 clone which, can be had for under $350 right now w/ coupons.
Yes thats one of the great things about these, you can do small and simple mods to make them even better. And its fun along the way!
Great review. But what preamp ?
Perhaps it was reviewed using a Naim NAC52 clone as it was partly mentioned in the description. Both have been the popular combination among Naimees. By general consensus, Naim' sonic traits are emphasized more into musically engaging listening experience with strong PRAT aspects than being analytical to fit into audiophile niches or jargons such as depth, inner/layer details etc which are less priority factors among the majority of music lovers/enthusiasts. Pick your choice of groups. To each of his/her own.
PRAT is an acronym for Pace, Rhythm and Timing as the popular terms of evaluating a listening experience for a closer mimicking to music lesson/learning. Is HiFi supposed to bring us an engaging musical experience more or merely sonic castle in the air? Go figure yourself.
PRAT is just a British marketing term...nothing special.
@@solomonstewart1025 PRAT is what makes an amp musical and alive. It will open up much more music for you to enjoy, that is made meh... By amps that do not swing.
@@solomonstewart1025The legendary Ella reminds us of her famous hit: It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that swing!
Looking forward to your review on 5.5 Fever Passive Bookshelf HiFi Speaker. I noticed that you have bought a pair from AliExpress.
The coaxial Sound Artist ones, right? They are not here yet..
@@k4syx 5.5 Inch Fever Passive Bookshelf HiFi Speaker Two-Way 100W Professional Audio 8Ω Monitor Speakers Sound Box High Power Speaker. There was a comment on the product page from you "These are insane.. ordering second set right away. Just wow and WOW. There will be a full review in my HiFi Zone YT channel, definitely". Thats how I found your channel.
@@srilanka.paradise Ah yes THESE! Yes so the smaller ones, I got them like a two weeks ago (when I've done this comment and second order). They are finishing burn in now as I was on business trip last week and there will be a review soon!
It would be interesting to compare these clone amps to a fully serviced original version to see how different they sound. Presumably the original should sound better due to better matched/quality components but I wonder by how much?
That would be excellent opportunity!
I'd love to do that, unfortunately I dont have anyone near me with NAP250 and getting loaner from shop is out of the question (too expensive)
Thanks for the review, it's very informative. One thing I have noticed however is that none of these Chinese amps seem to have a 12v trigger input, which is something that I personally find very useful. Do you think it would be possible either to get a seller to add this feature or for someone else to add it later to any of these amps?
I think its totally doable as these are DIY builds.
I myself use for that purpose Tuya smart power plugs - and my phone + dedicated nice remote. Works as well and is dead, zero power usage when not used.
How does this NAP250 compare to FM300A for use with difficult 4ohm 86db Magnepan speakers and which one is smoother more velvet analog type sound for female vocals?
Thats actually a tough question, I would need to connect them both to my Ascents and compare them head to head. FM300A will have higher power so my guesstimate would be that one
@@k4syx I'm also leaning towards the FM300A due to higher power with maybe more capacitance/headroom/current. Wish someone on here would compare the two versions of the FM300A, single vs dual toroidal transformers, to see if it's worth the extra cost for dual over a single transformer. Thanks
What you describe sounds like a Naim design from memory. They need an inductive load and speaker cable, as they removed the zobel network from the output and will oscillate with capacitive loads. Naim were known for an involving wholistic sound, and not to analyse ever little bit of it. I think they were best used with rock rather than classical music. p.s the Valhalla 2 cable should be a good match for it.
In a general way it does remind me of my Unitiqute and NAP100 setup. It also was about fun, emotion and general picture, not about details or soundstage planes.
Having watched several of your reviews, i’ve now narrowed down my new amp options (partly due to their size) - to either the 933, a1 or this NAP 250.
Did any of these 3 stand out as the best in terms of sound? (ignoring the power output)
They are on a very similiar level, but very different signatures. A1 would be airy and slightly warm, elegant, 933 is raw power and fun (great bass) and NAP250 is trading details for musicality, though it gets some back with 4Ohm loads.
What kind of music would you be listening?
@ Thanks for taking the time to respond!
It's just for a small kitchen set up with some OG LS50's so lots of power isn't needed - though the A1 could potentially struggle @ 8ohm / 85db.
In terms of music, would be mainly acoustic/rock - and would probably put a warmer signature/smooth vocals at the top of the list, then bass next..
@@janicejacksonthethird Then your first choice could be A1 (as long as you will not listen very loud) then 933. 250 would be the last one as it shines with 4 Ohm loads, its not as good with 8ohm speakers
@ Thanks. I had initially ordered the 933 for the power difference, but have cancelled and ordered the A1 now! For the price I can always look at the 933 in future if more power is needed
@@janicejacksonthethird The grat thing about these two (and hood) is the price: its so low we can do all kinds of experiments :D
What value in dollars if you compare it to normal hi end amps
2k blindly. Maybe more. Its dirt cheap and great value, all of the clones are.
@k4syx thanks! I wonder how the they're bigger more expensive sounds
Doubt this is to the latest 250 spec! Naim 250's were noted for their 'PRAT' performance. ie pace, rhythm and timing. In the 80's they were often linked with Linn Sara speakers which were a very low impedance load. Never seen a Naim amp with balanced XLR's fitted.
Its based on older desings probably as these had been available for a long time now
Great videos and descriptions. I found your channel recently. Most people making videos seem like salesmen. Your videos are informative without being biased. I'm looking for a clone amp to power some polk audio sda 2B. My research seems to be a speaker that needs high current and 120 to 150 watts with an amp that can dip below 4 ohms to reveal its potential. Do you have an opinion that would pair well with that type of speaker. I like spatial with nice imagining and warmth. Thank you for your detailed and informative videos. I'm now subscribed and paying attention to your channel.
Hi!
Thanks :)
Thats like on the edge - its probably a good pairing as they were able to drive my Logans very well (and these are demanding and really, really hard to drive properly) but if you could stretch your budget go for DartZeel clone I've reviewed as I consider it a better power amp.
It would be great if you could add to your videos a few minutes of the equipment playing on a reference system.
I'm working on two microphone setup to be able to do proper sound demos with acceptable quality, but its not easy to do this right on the budget!
Thanks for your content. Can I ask you how tò bypass the volume on the burmster 933. I know this Is not the right video but I can't get in touch with you. Thanks
I have to do a video on that. Its not complicated though not as simple as in other amps, as it would be good to do it proper way meaning without those long tracks on the pcb edge
@@k4syx Can we just remove both connectors from PCBs to bypass volume pot on the burmester 933 if we are using the tracks on the PCB edge?
@@shj-v6c Answered that in 933 comments ;)
When is youre 2860 Plus preamp review coming? Waiting for that :)
Its in line. Cant give you any specific date as Im doing all of these after my regular work hours and Q4 is always hectic with a lot of overtime :/
@@k4syxThank you for reply, no Problem. You have a lot interestingvgears to test👍🏻
Guys, I just bought it online. I buy it because I like the Naim-Sound (PRAT?).
But looks like this is cloned from the old NAP250 in the 1970's.😢
You mean schematics that were base for thet one?
@k4syx Yes. Very old.
Нет, за основу взята схема из середины 80-ых, поищите картинки с открытыми верхними крышками оригинальных nap 250. В семидесятых схема была более простой и расположение деталей другое.
how do you get the coupons for free shipping ?
No its more like getting coupns that will lower the price so much that it will cover the shipping :)
So this amp is not truly Balanced?
Apparently not, there was a discussion about it somewhere in the comments below
The hot glue on the backlit brand plate looks sketchy.
Thanks for the intersting video.
Id say its a standard tech there :D
Look at all other clones, they all use hot glue for LEDs in the front. Right now I expect to see that in every clone I review :)
Do you have an amplifier similar to the gallion TSA75
I havent heard the Gallion. I know its very popular now, but I havent heard that one. However, most of these amps are trading blows with my dual Cambridge Audio 851W power amps running in mono bi-amp mode, and these were like 3000USD each.
I don't understand why these so called "clone" amplifiers have internals that looks so drastically different then what they are supposedly clones of? The transformer on the original is almost three times the size and there are 4 large caps as opposed to two....etc etc. Are they clones really in name and external looks only?
Actually not really clones, but inspired by, no matter how, in some cases sounding much better than the originals
@@Gypsyking64530 Thanks! Could you name a few cases in which they actually sound better? Would love to research that.
@@RUMBLEGO1 the expensive Dartzeel clones NHB268, NHB368, NHB508(=NHB468) are better than original but for a clone still very expensive, but comparing with prices of originals still cheap
@@Gypsyking64530 Ok, thanks! So we aren't talking about prices of amps being reviewed on this channel then. That makes sense because these are relatively inexpensive but their innards don't look anywhere near the originals from the few I A/B'd. How close do they sound to the originals. I would have no clue and would have to trust others ears and knowledge.
@@RUMBLEGO1 Actually the original Dartzeel had never made these type numbers: NHB268, NHB368. What the designer told me it is the same design as NHB108 but with much stronger power reserves than the original nhb108(existing type), so to my surprise it sounded really better than the original.
Also the expensive NHB468 clone is really a world reference!!! Some even claimed better than the original very expensive Dartzeel mono amplifiers.
The cheaper Chinese clones could be the best money can buy which often nearly equals the originals for much lesser money, sounding maybe a tiny bit different but that's not a bad thing:). Actually China's highend audio has made really HUGE advancements, unlike a few years ago, even me I was shocked having owned original very expensive Swiss made FM Acoustics myself.
The truth about this amp is that it has only 58W/8Ω and 85W/4Ω measured in reality. It has very small transformer in comparison to the original naim. Original weight (old version) 15,8kg and the "clone" 8,1kg. The specification given by the Chinese (90W/8Ω, 170W/4Ω) is just a lie and nonsense, typical to the Chinese so called "clones".
Still, it was able to drive my electrostats very well and that's a rare feat even for way more powerful stuff.
Where are the measurements from? And for what amp exactly?
@@k4syx The same clone as yours. I gave the link but my answer was removed (maybe it is agains youtube rules?). My old friend audiophile, that maybe you know because his is Polish just like us ;) published the service measurements on his site and described also other problems with the NAP250 clone. Google "najlepsze odtwarzacze" and "NAP250 clone" and you will find it. As far as your subjective "powerfulness opinion" it stems from the fact, that electrostats (like ribbons, magnetostats) need matched character more that raw power, especially when lowest impedance is in higher regions in hybrid speaker.
@@marcinwasilewski5414 I know who are you talking about, I will surely read that as the trafo here is on the small side.
If you gave direct link then these get removed by YT straight away :(
@@k4syx BTW you should check/regulation of zero point and bias in all your clones because the Chinese from these small factories do not care about these settings and often do not make them at all (!) Do you confirm that FM300A has bigger transformer? I saw the description 400W on it and it seems quite acceptable.
@@marcinwasilewski5414 Bigger than this one? Definetely. This one really is small, should make me suspicious earlier. Looks nice in this black cloth but its small all in all.
Speaker wires to the terminals bundled with wires running to the rectifier and input signals bundled with power cables is asking for trouble and that transformer looks too small for the output quoted.
Pass.
Yes they are isolated well but still having them basically one on top of another asks for placing them in a very different way. Doable, and I may do a video on that in a future.
Still, it sounds darn good. Probably even better with cables routed differently.
thank you
Why bother you can get NAD 316
Sound quality.
It's black ❤
I felt that coming here! :)
These days
Naim has become a completely over priced fashion brand simply not worth the money asked .
So for this outlay it’s a no brainer .
That small transformer can deliver 120-150w at best. So how that device can to deliver 2x90 is just unclear. Than if transformer can to deliver 250w by a magic, then there is a question: how heat of 180w amp dissipated, without heatsinks?!
I personally own Blameless amp of Douglas Self, and i know how much heat can to produce 2x75w amp, running in efficient class B
The proofing of the all above is a look at original NAP250. 1/3 of the internal volume of the original taken by the transformer, heatsinks instead of side walls. The original looks like well crafted amp, this one looks like attempt of the crooks that stoled naim’s brand name, to scam the buyers, by selling something, that not even similar to original, in terms of the quality
Naim amplifiers use heavy aluminum cases that act as heatsinks. Are you aware of that?
The given specs of Ali Express' NAP250 product listing shows:
Output power: 90W per channel at 8 ohms and 170W per channel at 4 ohms.
Power transformer: 400W customized pure copper wire black clothed.
@ go learn basics of power supply design and construction to stop to trust fakes of the crooks from ali
Its using the chassis as a heatsink, the smaller heatsinks (U-shaped) are screwed back to the bottom plate. As for heat that depends also on the bias for transistors.
But I do agree that this transformer is just to small.
On the other hand I do not tend to listen at volume levels consuming 2x90 or 2x140W ;)
I would happily accept if they would just tell the real data on transformer.
I wouldnt call the manufacturers scammers or crooks. Design for that amp is freely available and had been for decades, as its an old design (still good though) and if youd buy this thinking youre getting real Naim then you're scamming yourself mostly.
Having said that, as I said in the video, I am not ok with them using the name or logo (though it doesnt look the same at any rate)
@ @ of course 99% of the listeners will not pull the volume up to 90w average, but dynamic range of amp , and it ability to control the loudspeakers, depends on ability of amp deliver a power, on the other hand, those numbers in amp description used to pull the money out of the customer wallet and this is not so honest so much.
To get an idea, how the 400w transformer looks like, you can to visit a toroidy pl or antec transformers. By the way, I’m sourcing transformers for my projects from the toroidy, and their service and quality just an excellent.
Built like it was in 1970... with old transistors and really long cable runs and then everything is "nicely" tied up in parallel. Man, it's almost 2025... or are the Chinese now asking us to clone an old tube radio from 1950? There are so many other good devices from 1980-2010... Restek, audiolabor, Krell, NAD,... they usually sound better too... but however a nice Review 👍🙏
Have to agree that the way Naim and this clone is built was not in the modern way but that's what gives them their particular sound which I have always thought as a slightly dry presentation but always good with rhythm.. input cap could be changed for something a bit more exotic which would help with the slight lack of air but otherwise best left alone cause it wouldn't be a Naim or a clone of a Naim wouldn't it... cheers
These seem to be based on older designs, I may do a video on rerouting the cables internally. Its easy to do, everyone can do it so why not :)
@k4syx That would simplify life for a lot of clueless people, like me!
@@EvenHarmonics For that one? Others have no routing problems, did yoy get this one too? :)
Dont think that anything is real in this clone amplifier, All the transistors and caps are low cost chinese copies of the originals.
That would be probably true a decade ago. We've had that discussion under JC2 clone video, it's using Mundorf caps. Mundorf in Germany had confirmed that caps are real and also said they are selling a lot of their parts to China.
@@k4syx oh okay, thats great news then.
@@Uraim It is, I was surprised and I had same reservations when I got the first of the clones as I remember "old times" :)
@@k4syx yeah thats great, i have a sa7800 that modded with a workarround, Vu tube is dead, but its driver board was ok, so i decided to get a pertinax board and i soldered 1206 smd leds from Lite-on, and it definietly looks like the originals, so im happy with it.
I got cold white leds, and after the blue window, it looks like my TX-D1000 tuner's display (since that is in mint condition, and its fluorescent display is a beautiful bright blue display.)
Just don’t understand why anyone would buy one of these.
It just won’t have the PRAT of a NAIM product nor work in harmony with their Pre amps. I certainly wouldn’t want to plus this unit a 252 / 282.
A used 250DR can be bought for around £1700 and will be serviceable forever both by NAIM themselves and Indy’s like Class A.
I dont think anyone would use this one with real Naim. Its more DIY construction based on well known schematics so natural pairing would be DIY NAC52 or 152. I actually have the NAC52 with similiar chassis waiting for the review.
As for PRAT - it does have that rhytm, drive and emotion that I loved in UnityQute and NAP20 I owned. I sold them finally due to seriuos lack of details that better speakers exposed :(