China is NOT Cheaper | 3D Printing is NOT Dead | Filament & Software Update
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- āđāļāļĒāđāļāļĢāđāđāļĄāļ·āđāļ 21 āļ.āļ. 2023
- In this episode of Layer by Layer, we rant about the misconception that Chinese manufacturing is cheaper than American manufacturing and how the 3D printing industry is holding itself back. We also provide an update on our latest filament batch and the v2 API.
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Hey, I retired as a computer programmer and then went to trade school to train as a precision machinist so I've seen two sides of this coin. In the Seattle area computer programmers with experience can earn $200k/year and are treated like work heroes while machinists with more years of experience get $75k/year if they're lucky and they're generally treated like second class citizens.
It isn't a mystery why we don't have enough machinists.
You're a hero to me
One fact a lot of people forget is that humans are great at ingenuity and problem solving. We are insanely bad, without exception, at repetitive tasks. We make errors all the time. Therefore you build automation to fix the issues people are bad at so they can focus on what they are good at.
The big issue is thereâs not enough investment across many countries in training and retraining.
Yeah, like I live in Poland, okay? And I really want to get into electronics and embedded stuff (both on hardware and software side). But the costs of all necessary courses, certifications, etc. is prohibitive for me and I simply can't learn it properly. Similar with carpentry - want to learn it, so I can make custom-build furniture for myself and my family, but tools, training, etc. is prohibitive for me. And there's no maker/hacker spaces here, at least where I live (Szczecin) where I could just go to and learn that stuff without going broke.
Great commentary. We need passionate voices in this sector as I agree that this technology will eventually further upend manufacturing.
"We cannot afford to lie to ourselves." This is the mindset you need. Keep at it. Make sure everyone understands that. Put it up on a wall.
I love how fired up you get in these rants. It's inspiring to see someone so passionate about 3d printing and engineering and becoming an enormous voice in the field. Great job and keep it up.
Seeing designs Iâve spent time carefully crafting in CAD to serve a specific purpose, whether it be for myself or others, come to life through 3D printing is VERY satisfying
Some of the BEST advice and commentary about the trades I've seen outside of Mike Rowe. Same message and it's absolutely spot on.
I thought I'd search existing comments before I proposed that Mike is one of the most INFORMED analysts of the state of our workplace that one might find -- AND -- he's TOTALLY interesting to listen to on any given day! Yes, we have done SHOT ourselves in the by killing shop and home-ec classes in our high schools and PRETENDING that there are enough white-collared, managerial desk jobs out there for all these misguided kids. Yup - we in DEEP Doodoo because of such "thinking." Mike's testimony before congress (or maybe it was just a congressional committee - I fivegot) was KILLER!
I liked this video! Rants are useful!
Also, there is a POTENTIAL conflict of interest, technically, but the reality is the way you deal with that possible conflict is exactly how you just did it: acknowledge the possibility of conflict, and explain why it isn't a problem.
The problem with 3D printing is that right now it basically has two major user bases. "Makers" who basically do fun little trinkets and sell the files to other makers who make fun little trinkets. Then industrial use cases where it is mostly used for rapid prototyping to help tweak in the design before you send it to be made "for real" by some other process.
As someone whose dived hardcore into 3D printing within the last year, the showmanship within 3D printing is also a bit much. It feels like a bunch of people that race to make a better printer but don't teach others how to design for 3D printing. They really don't understand that they have to do a whole reeducation of our engineering and design talent. It honestly shows with how arcane our CAD software is for the most part and basically designed for subtractive manufacturing. Anyways, cheers and keep on. I'll be at ASTM ICAM 2023 in two weeks. I'll try and get a pulse on who else is qualifying 3D parts for FDM or other with the level of meticulous that you're thinking and we vastly need. ðĪ
I think AI is going to change everything in the very near future anyway.
AI 3D modeling is very close to good enough, and AI optimized slicing is right around the corner too.
@@jtjames79 we already have 3D algorithmic generative models but I don't think AI is going to change everything. I think AI is useful for certain data sets but definitely not a solution so robust that it negates people investing more into better CAD for 3D printing. I think the market sees so much open field of opportunity that it's hard to focus
This is a great podcast on a subject that I think not enough folks talk about. Wildly fascinating. Great work, man. Love the channel, keep it up. Looking forward to buying some filament from you guys here soon when I get making more stuff.
33:33 - I have a home manufacturing device in my home. :-) It's an arm's length away and it's currently printing a couple of ABS antenna winders - #98 and #99 of a 250 part order. Your focus is on the warehouse where the shelves make the products, which is great, but 3D printing works at every scale. A single 3D printer with the right niche product can do all of the manufacturing for a one person home based small business.
Feels like you could integrate the filament data into new software, a mesh of FEA/Slicer/CAD all rolled into one.
You could make a relatively cheap
(compound lever arm) testing bench.
It greatly increases the force could be as much as 100:1 so a ten pound could equal a thousand pounds at the testing area.
Just a thought.
This was good. I actually started a blog I'm trying to center around 3D printing and not 3D printers so I've been loving those tests. I worked with a 3D printing company last year and there are some very interesting use cases here in Kenya. The smaller market makes these niche applications for the time being but there are many such gaps that the technology can already fill quite well.
Hello Charles am Kennedy from Kampala Uganda, I run a 3d print farm in Uganda. Great seeing a fellow east African in love with the technology
Great podcast as always. I have a question tho. What print surface do you use in your print farm?
Another great video. I was so impressed I posted this video on FB. I'll have to review your video's for your comments on Resin printer info to see if you answered this question. I remember you had some concerns, but I'm not sure if they talked about filling in to bridge the gap.
You're talking about injection molding is "old school" and FDM printers leave layer lines. What about SLA/DLP "resin printing" would this help bridge the gap between FDM and injection molding?
One more thing about the labor situation... China, India, Vietnam, etc are becoming the manufacturing hubs not because people are spread over from higher education (CS/Eng/...) to know-how training, but because you pretty much have lots of highly educated workers working low-paid jobs in the factory. I'm talking people having a high school or even lower-tier college degrees working on screwing together iPhone parts, and it goes without questions they understand how the machines work. The US had polarized education so knowledge is concentrated to the higher education systems and pathetically sparse everywhere below, so much so you can't get enough factory workers with basic engineering knowledge to harness automation properly. This is the problem with China in the past 3 years of education reform and maybe that's the reason mfg is moving to India etc.
I make a ton of parametric models that fit all sizes, and 3d printing is perfect for that.
Thank you for the in depth perspective youâre giving itâs very useful to get manufacturers advice as a mechanical designer, I love that !
Something that could only be by printing: A printer which is almost complete off the printer. Just add electronics, hotend, steppers, belts etc.
With very large printer you can print high enough volume. You can print this printer enclosed from get-go, with spool holder, chamber exhaust fan, immense part cooling, and even threads. With threads just instead of standard engineer saying minimum engagement of material width, ie. M3 needs 3mm of thread engagement for full strength, go 2 or 3x minimum and over sized screws where possible for deeper threads, so can use cheap standard bolts and screws.
The question tho is, how to align the linear guides (smooth rods, linear rails whatever) within sub-0.005mm tolerance reliably against printed chassis, or what kind of alignment methods -- or should there be a lmid plate for alignmen with oversized holes to allow you that ~1mm adjustment -- or could a 3d printer produce reliable that tight tolerance with care taken on the slicing of those particular areas.
Considering Prusa used, and may still be using just ziptied carriage blocks on linear bearings ... Yeah that alignment issue probably is non existent for most part.
This would be very good example of a larger machine making a smaller machine -- like how many lathes, milling machines etc. are made in industry to very tight tolerances -- just make a bigger machine first arduously and painstakingly, which can then make the smaller machine with very tight tolerances.
As an Entrepreneur in IT, operating DC and providing servers for people, thinking about "warehouse shelf that makes the product":
What if companies etc. could rent a number of 3D Printers, assign them to a product (or varying) and once inventory management hits a threshold a new print is automatically started, say keep 5 parts in stock on that shelf in the finished parts bin, 3 is shipped today so printer makes 3 more.
Machine renter pays something like say 50$ (or whatever you calc good profit to be) a month for that machine, whether or not they use it 24/7 or not, and you get a "guaranteed" return for the machine.
Additional charges for filament used, and shipping _direct to end consumer_. Skipping completely shipping to machine renter in between.
This way you combine the sweetest thing in hosting industry -> Steady monthly base income per machine with manufacturing.
3D Printers are cheap to produce, so does it truly matter if the machines are not now in 100% utilization 24/7/365?
Customers can then define their own lead times, lead times growing too much? Rent more printers.
Then you can just have regular warehouse workers picking parts (with training to check for defects), and a small team dedicated on upkeep of the machines who can build more machines when there's no maintenance to be done.
Subscription models tend to generate insane steady cashflow.
You could then do both, mass manufacturing on contract, and offer small etsy stores this.
Just brainstorming ideas, i hope one can find some value on this line of thinking ^_^
There seems to be a difference between a home appliance and an industrial appliance with most 3d printer companies trying to straddle the two areas. IMO, 3d printing seems like it would be adopted by a wider audience if it were as easy to use as a KitchenAid and came with predownloaded homeowner tools(with an easier way of finding and downloading a bunch more for any home task) Bambulab has made great strides in that area, but for the moment there are too many steps in the process for reg people to want to learn, especially if they start with an ender 3.
I feel your frustration for engineers to learn to design for printing. For years, I was the gate keeper to my company's SLA printer. I would get models and drawings from the engineers like they were sending the part out to be machined or molded. I would then have to take that and either tweek it to print properly, or just remodel it completely. I don't know how they were doing it, but 1 out of 10 models had mesh errors. I'd then print, clean, and cure the part before delivering it to the engineer. Some times they didn't mind the changes made for printing. One engineer, a physacist turned engineer, would always get furious with my changes with some rude name calling and nerd based chest pounding. It was funny and sad all at the same time. Once, with a complex set of models being printed at scale for fit and function testing, I just ran his models straight in through the slicer and to the printer. He was the most mad I had ever seen him until I was able to prove to him that those were his models completely unchanged. I didn't get much from him after that about the DFM cycle his parts would get.
I received my order and even though I haven't used the black filament I love the clear. I did find that with your typical infill it messes up the clear functionality.
One of the worst cultural tendencies in the USA was to look down on people who chose to go into trades rather than college.
A lot of the benchmarks used for materials aren't really what one usually wants from 3d printed parts. The biggest question is what amount of forge is necessary to bend a beam a small amount. PLA really shines there, but on many benchmarks looks bad because it fails catastrophically before other materials do even though the other materials have been permanently damaged long before that.
China is a big place. If you want labor in a city like Shenzhen or another economic development zone, it's about half as much as the US. But there are still plenty of places in China where you can get cheap labor. Plus the lack of labor laws and the fact that you don't have to pay benefits, can have people work what would be very long hours in the west, etc. While it may be easier to find cheap labor in other places, ie. Vietnam, Malaysia, etc., it's still very possible to get things done for cheap in China.
Great talk, as always, I learn something new from you with every video.
Also, staring at the bandsaw near my kitchen wondering how crazy I may be.. ð
I would rather have a good cheap filament recycler than cheap filament.
Many times I've ran out when trying to prototype something....sitting there looking at my failed prototype parts and just wishing I could recycle them and continue printing.
The testing: if you can embed a barcode in the print you can easily automate the logging of the tests, meaning you can test hundreds of samples without much effort. Let software crunch the numbers and match with the sample ID from a camera image.
Keeping track of the samples works too, but any mixup will be a huge issue.
I would like to know your thoughts on pellet-fed vs filament-fed printers. Pellets would get us to the same material costs as molding.
If the government ever wanted a boom in growth and technology, it should invest in making cheaper lasers and making a 3D printable material that can conduct electricity at very low resistance. One of the biggest issues that prevents a lot of growth is the fact that powerful lasers are very expensive and that people cant imbed electronics into devices rather than having multiple manufacturers send them things and have to rely on others. Laser technology is what is keeping metal 3D printing behind a wall.
i want to add we in germany had / have the worldleading robotarm manufactuerer "KUKA" which got sold to China.
The non-isotropic one always gets me. There exist non isotropic materials that have proven their worth for years and years. Wood is non-isotropic
Very true
When you dig into the details, many materials normally thought of as being isotropic, often aren't. Even metal can be directional, unless you are dealing strictly with castings. In aircraft sheet metal we have to be aware of the grain structure that results from the direction the material was rolled at the mill to maximize strength and resistance to fatigue across bend lines. And orienting the grain structure in specific directions is one of the major advantages of forged parts. As always the material properties dictate the design.
It bugs me too. How often do I *REALLY* need the full strength of the material in all three dimensions? Never. I've always been able to design around it. I've had a few tricky prints for sure, but I've always been able to figure out a good way to make the piece.
3:30 my understanding is that high schools don't have shop classes anymore. Hell, they seem not to have shops! That's insane.
i need to tell it. You're inspiration for me to develop my 3d printing business in Poland. Great work!
Any process where a part goes from Step A to Step B without a check is definitely being automated. And that same robot might take a part all the way from Steps A to Y, and Step Z is a human collecting and inspecting before placing in a container.
Amazing video! It would be really good if these videos had chapters. While they're all interesting maybe rarely skipping chapters will be good to consume and come back to the video later and watching fully.
Great rant(s). Particularly in reference to data collection/sharing, and the 3d print industry analysis. 100% on point! Love the passioin.
25:15 to 25:45 needs to be a short video, or part of a channel promo video.
29:11 to 30:45 is another great focus point, highlighting Slant's mission.
Since Slant 3d has a software team that can create APIs, why not just host an API to access the Filament Test Lab data? Using a google drive seems like a poor choice from logistic and data management perspective. (data automation can be self serve to custom requests vs. blobs of data)
Would make supporting those wanting to host a website easier, plus offer a way to collect metrics on what data is of interest.
Currently a cnc machinistâĶ. Can weld, used to work in automotive, college educated. âĶ$18 an hourâĶ. California, McDonaldâs pays crew members $18.65 donât bother guys. Go get a marketing degree and go work with hot chicks in an air conditioned office. All my coworkers are boomers a few years off retiring itâs lonely
Love the rant, i feel like i caused some if it with my comment on Bias. Your rant is a good one but keep in mind in that video you did a call to action on consumer filament makers to sponsor content and send you materials to test. They do have the ability to put their thumb on your scales directly by sending you better than average stuff. Just buy the filiment you test off amazon, or wherever we get it to control for the binning that may happen. I used to do Flash Storage QA Testing, I know when a supplier sends me packages to test there is a solid chance its a top binned product because of the size of the company i work for, I also know they sell their lesser quality packages to be used in lesser quality electronics. Just control for what you can, everyone has bais, unconcious or concious, its part of being human, in any testing there is outlier data and some human has to decide if that was a defect in printing, or a defect in the material, and if the outlier should be removed from the testing or not.
rant episode was fun, but I am really excited for the testing equip videos
uv degradation of pigment test would be cool. useful for decorative parts.
Fav video now. Good talk bro. Mike Rowe, he's said similar. I went to college when I didn't want to (typical Indian/Asian egotistical BS) . I had friends who were tradesmen, I watched them make a killing while I went to school. I still learned a lot, more than most these days especially. Getting dirty is not a fear. But you are so right in this video. Every bit.
How about Slant 3D branches into a trade school. An online one, teaching us how to mass produce and build a factory?
Another reason many choose to manufacture in China is the number of Ports they have as well as other logistic chains which allow international distribution to be easier and cheaper than anywhere in the world. There's not many good reasons why other nations can't compete.
spreading word that robots are helpless without programmers and repair specialists/engineers is key.
Brilliant video, you should have split it though, first 13/14mins were pure gold, would have been better as a standalone video.
Rant 3D - Rant much apreciated and quite informative. Thanks!
living in europe sadly i can't afford your service thanks to import fees and shipping cost but i do apriciate your ramblings and i hope you will have that anual 30% growth for yourself at a minimum
still i would really love there was a process that makes 3d printers possible to use as a mold builfing for other proceses, at least in rapid prototyping phases of development. molding process is not going anywhere soon and as you said 3d printing is not a direct swap, but what it is good at is producing high quality one of a kind items fast and efficiently compared to other methods and mold building is probably the most wastfull because every mistake scraps entire mold. 3d printing molds would be a game changer for scale model manufacturers who usually take months to make single mold and then uses it for years making any scale train model or something very expensive toy
and thanks to it at least train model makers only makes models that can be repainted in multiple ways to imitate other things instead of just making more molds
but that is a rant out of my own hobby where i usually just work around 3d printer limitations to make somthinf 3d printer should never be forced to make
China also buys a lot of its automation technology. I come from Augsburg Germany where a few years ago Kuka (one of the leading industrial robot manufacturers) was bought and relocated to China
That one hurts and I'm not even German...
I'll be receiving a Kuka KR6 in my lab tomorrow. Alongside a few other brands, Kuka makes amazing robots.
I didn't get it, so can I order your filament or not just now?)
I think a large part of the brain drain is people who just found it more profitable to be in Fintech. Think of how many engineers choose to go work on wallstreet as a quant instead of actually doing engineering.
I have to correct you. We are TWO generations behind. Gen X was pretty much ignored, and what you just said just makes my point for me.
I love this agitated version! Keep up the great work sir!
We at WCD Creative âĪðð this vid.
We are working right now to manufacture goods here in America for retail.
Almost everything in our market is out of China.
We started this past summer to change that. ð Let's go!
Loved the rants. You spoke what I have been thinking for several years. I have been 3d printing for about 10 years and agree with you.
"Printing will never be the same as moulding." This immediately brought a Moneyball quote to mind: "If we try to play like the Yankees in here, we will lose to the Yankees out there." You are the Billy Beane of FDM manufacturing. Also, don't apologize for the rants. I'm somewhat new to 3D printing but it seems to me like there's too much "acceptance of our weakness" and not enough "leveraging of our uniqueness."
True. But materials and logistics are much cheaper in China. I live in China at the moment and I buy 1kg spools of ABS for $5.1-6 usd (in retail, in wholesale itâs even cheaper). Printers and parts are much cheaper here too
Fascinating, thank you so much
I hope this comes as a compliment but you remind me of Eli. I am inclined to agree with you about the growth potential for the industry. Do you think increasing transport costs will play a role to return to localized fabrication?
instead of a bigger load cell, why not use a lever with a 2 to 1 advantage on the current loadcell to double its measuring capacity
test things like compression, tension, and flexion over time. like after one week/month/year of tension, strength is X.
Mate this video was awesome, funny entertaining, funny and useful! You should rant more.ðĪĢ
I went back to school in 2008 to get a network administration degree. If I could do it over again, I would have gone for engineering. I'm 47 now, so going back doesn't seem like I would get much of a return on the investment.
It's not the computer made with transistors that you need to work with as a model. It's the Transistor Radio. Something that almost as soon as it hit the market there was a tremendous demand for that the Transistor manufacturers were able to ramp up to fill.
The computer comes when people realize that a transistor not only makes a great amplifier, but also makes a great switch. It was also feeding a much smaller presumed target market. Really when the computer took off as a device was with the development of Integrated circuits. That will come along as well, and probably from what seems like a niche market user like the telephone company,
We need the Transistor Radio idea for 3d Printing. At the moment that looks like Etse is trying to be that product, but you already know that is still a limited market. Though it is growing, and has some seasonal boosts.
Your posts are visionary. I hope they don't get lost to history.
If you don't want layer lines from FDM, accept slower production and use high quality filament (gets right back to *real* data!). Once you get to scale, the throughput isn't that much different.
Looking forward to discounted "Mystery Flavor" filament.
Re testing bias, you might have no bias (and I get the point and perspective no argument) but how others perceive the risk. Independence and transparency are key to uptake and a pre-emptive defence!
Why don't you share your latest printer specifications? Share the files fo your printers and so on?
Are you going to be at Formnext?
well, since the mantra is get an associate degree, bachelor's degree, master's or graduate degrees, and doctorate or professional degree, cos thes provide a better future, but they forget to mention the $30K-$250K cost, which most can only afford if they get the famous loan, which then they will pay back in 10-20 years.. its insane.
This is a really interesting take on the 3d printing industry! Thanks!
Great video (rants are good), but.... are you missing a potentially huge market segment? Future consumer goods bought as a kit, and the manufacture done locally, with a lot done at home, on a 3D printer? The customer only receives PCB's and proprietary items, with the body being digital files only. So customers with 3D printers at home and knowledge are a new digital elite??
We cannot lie to ourselves is a great mindset excited to see where this goes. Similar to LTT labs
There are many ways of fabricating a product. They all have their pros and cons and need to be designed for the process at hand. The biggest advantage to 3d printing as you somewhat imply is its inherent flexibility as it is toolless in nature.
I think One killer app is through metal 3d printing and use for rocket jets or even intake manifolds in cars for example. I am willing to bet the most efficient was to get the best combustion is done only through 3d printable shapes that cant be traditionally manufactured.
Side note: i wonder how metal 3d printed tooling for injection molding would compare to traditionally machined tooling. Id imagine quite a bit cheaper.
One part of the problem you touch on is the lack of skilled designers. Design is not something easily learned by tinkerers, a lot of people that get into 3d printing as a hobby really don't have the skillset or personality of a designer. And design schools are unfortunately going down the drain. So very few people that are using 3d printing are actually designing with 3d printing constraints and advantages in mind...
"Own it, we're 3D printing. We're not molding! We don't want to be molding!" New words of affirmation unlocked.
2:10 is a great example if over pushed college degrees in anything other than trade. We did it to ourselves.
Industrial Robotics Engineer from Canada here. We (NA) are getting our asses destroyed by China in terms of automation, not even close.
Slant Rants? If it hasn't been said yet. Thanks for the as always great info
Good rant as usual! :D
Great points! Part of the labor/expertise shortage is that there are fewer people born each generation after gen X (72M millennials vs 78M boomers). Gen Z is even smaller at 69M
Rant On!!! 100% Awesome
We destroyed our manufacturing base (and it's talent base and future talent base) in the 1970s. Just ask anyone from Ohio, Indiana, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Wisconsin.
Lowve to hear folks preaching what I did throughout my career... Automation expands the pie!
you maybe should call it "Tangled Transition"
What would you say about filament prices in Russia?
The problem in America is the economic disincentives to productivity. It costs so much to pay off all the permits and taxes to do anything useful, it's better to do as little as possible and focus on reducing expenses. It can be overcome with enough effort, but it's an uphill battle and feeds the monster to continue making the problem worse.
It is weird, but the biggest critics of our 3D printed products are the few people with 3D printers. Other customers are impressed with the design complexity and the unique structure that additive manufacturing enables that couldn't be manufactured any other process. However, the people with 3D printers seem to be the ones who consider 3D printed products to be inferior to other manufacturing methods, as if it's a cheap product that anyone with a $200 3D printer could make.
I think there's one other dilemma you didn't highlight in the US manufacturing industry. Everyone loves talking about "manufacturing 4.0", but there's no clear and easy roadmap to get there. It's not just a question of the labor force or the age of the plant, the mindset of plant operations and leadership is stuck in the 1980s.
I was at a conference recently and a quote stuck with me- "If you have paper on your plant floor, you're not ready for 4.0". Going to any American manufacturing plant and they are *RUN* with paper.
If it is a mindset problem it is a labor problem
Hey idea... get someone who is good with ai to program iterative testing to output slicer instructions that can go right to printer
Nice talk!
Fremover3D is selling PLA for $8.79/kg with free shipping, so I think you can meet your $10/kg roll.
I enjoyed the rant.
China is typically a market with cheaper energy.
For automation i donât actually think so.
Being Vertically integrated is in the EU still no focus.
Robots are something that people fear because it might replace there job but it actually doesnât matter as there will be or was never one that took that job in the first place.
Iâd subsidize automation in any form or way.
Passion is GREAT!! I will disagree with one point about people not having the machines in their houses to produce the product as I think we are heading to that point. 3d printer in a home where you can order a part you need, company sends the schematics to the 3d printer and it prints it rather than going to the store or paying for shipping, etc. I REALLY do see that as the future of the industry but like I said many times, I am NOT a business man.
I think the killer app may be mixing materials
haha i gotta say- when you rant you give off some strong Adam Sandler vibes