Thanks so much for watching! If you want to check out my reaction to a “nuclear launch key” from Lockpicking Lawyer, please check out: th-cam.com/video/YTWEHT__G_A/w-d-xo.htmlsi=c1N7mc8ib0A0qRXe
As the person from a tech crew, who sometimes uses those things, i can find reasons for making this lock in that way. More pins means more combinations for the key - more people can have unique keys. Strange thing is putting security pins in there. This is not a security lock. This is just a warning to not to turn some machines on. So i completly get it being made from easily destructible materials just in case a person who put a lock on, cannot be contacted because their shift is finished. For me it is normal even if you use a screwdriver to "secure" a power switch. Any other tech seeing such thing knows to check the whole machine area for other techs working on such thing. This is more for dumb operators switching on things, just because they are switched off. All of the tech crew will take a stroll, shout and check if they see even a paperclip pushed through that switch hole to make an extra effort to switch on the machine. And that's all it is ment to do - extra effort for someone else to consider, there might be another person in danger if you just flip that switch.
Masterlock has a bit of a reputation amongst his followers. My favorite joke I've seen there is "A master key opens any lock, a Masterlock is opened by any key."
The worst part of Master's lineup is that their flagship padlock, the Magnum 930 (the last one he showed), has a massive *known* security flaw. Master decided to put a rubber weather cover on the bottom of the lock. To hold it in place, they extended the core retention nut by a quarter of an inch. If you simply rip the rubber cover off, you can grab a hold of the retention nut with a pair of channel locking pliers and pry it out. The internals of the lock will all come out, and the lock will open. That flaw has been known for at least six or seven years.
A lot of the exploits that open 98% of the locks you'll ever encounter in the US have been around for decades to centuries. It's a pretty bad industry.
@@derpderpin1568 LockPickingLawyer actually gave a presentation at SaintCon (a digital security conference) about this! It's crazy how resistant the physical security industry has been to change, especially when compared to digital security...
The 6-pin LOTO lock is purposely not made to be indestructable, exactly for the reasons you mentioned. They're used to lockout people, but has to be malleable enough to be removed in an emergency situation.
That's exactly my thoughts too. They use more pins on the lock, so there are much more key combinations (unique ones) to use those locks. But the lock itself has to be relatively easy to take off in case of a problem to contact a person who put a lock on a device, but is not possible to contact them - they finnished their shift and they switched off the work phone. A bit of twisted logic, but still, it can be solid from a certain perspective 😁
@@seanspartan2023 "non-stupid accident" would be a novel situation without warning signs. IE all procedures were followed but it still went sideways. Edit: one thing I could think of is a blown bleeder resistor in a capacitor bank. It will pass visual inspection, then you touch anywhere in the system and your heart stops or short/burn out something.
LPL later mused that it may be so that a LOTO lock is easy to break with evidence of tampering, but hard to pick leaving no evidence of tampering. The other locks are easy to pick, but hard to break as evidence of tampering is no longer.
As someone who got into locksport thanks to BosnianBill and LockPickingLawyer, Master is known to be the best beginner practice lock brand. Along with all of the faults LPL noted in this video, Master allows for locks with all pins being the same cut. I acquired one of these myself. You can literally pick it with a bobby pin and nothing else. I had to toss that lock because it was so frustratingly easy to pick that it was preventing me from learning new techniques with any skill because it’d just pop open as soon as I put the pick in and touch the pins. These days I have to go out of my way to look for challenging locks. The ones found in local stores just don’t cut it anymore.
Unless a worker forgot to take it off and you call him to make sure what ever equipment or circuit he was working on is in safe and in working order, there is not many circumstances where you should remove someone’s loto.
@@patricktho6546I think you may have hit the nail on the head actually. Harden them against non-destructive attacks so it’s obvious to the owner when one is opened by someone who isn’t the owner. That way you don’t lose the chain of custody by re-locking the system out with the same lock and without the owners knowledge. If the lock is removed in an emergency, and the lock owner isn’t present. Then when they return, they’ll know they have to re-certify the system is in a safe state for work to continue even if no one tells them.
That was what Tyler was getting at when he was going on about cutting it off in certain situations. I think LPL's main point was that on locks that are supposed to be secure against all forms of entry, both cutting and picking they use rubbish cores whereas on locks that don't need to be so secure (in general but mainly against cutting) they use much better cores.
Sort of. The specific regulation is that whoever puts it on retains exclusive access to the key and is the only person who can remove the lock. However, regulations do allow for removal if the operator cannot be reached. All reasonable methods to reach the operator must be exhausted as the ideal is that they personally remove it. If they cannot be reached or cannot come in, they MUST be notified in person (I think phone may also be allowed I'll have to brush up on that) before the start of their next shift that the lock has been removed. That's why regulation also specifies a name be on the tag.
I operate a large double span hydraulically powered concrete swing bridge. These locks aren't used too often, mostly for locking out circuits or generators. We usually remove keys and use yellow (caution, communicate before operating) or red (do not operate, remove key and take key with you) tags to denote work is being done on certain parts. It's really interesting to see what other industrial workplaces may use for LOTO situations.
Funny thing is, you kind of giggled when he mentioned picking open locks while watching a movie, but I totally relate to that. I have issues focusing due to restless energy, and while my go-to isn't currently lockpicking (I got into trouble for that from a friend cause the clicking was distracting), I've moved to solving a very quiet rubik's cube while I movie watch with friends, to keep my mind free
I got into lockpicking as a hobby after watching LPL. If you like puzzles and challenging yourself, it's great fun. And like LPL said, you can do it while watching TV. For a little while there, my wife wouldn't let me out of her sight whenever we went to the hardware store. If I disappeared, she knew I was making my way over to the padlock or door lock section. 😂 Increasingly fancier locks tend to also become increasingly expensive. 🤷
I'm glad you mentioned the reason the standard LoTo lock is non hardened, they are there so someone doesn't accidently harm someone while they are working, or accidently activate a faulty system. However, if they lose a key, or there is an emergency, they need to be able to be cut open quickly. I've never had it where it was a need to open one immediately but We did lose the keys to one, then per policy of the company I was at, we had to fill out a bunch of paperwork to describe why we cut the lock. Just for record keeping that hey, we lost the key, we removed the lock. Also, yeah, most locks are there to keep honest people honest. They act as a deterrent, The reality is that if someone is going to break into something, Think about the standard toolbox latch over eye lock setup, doesn't matter if you put the best lock in the world on it, Someone that wants to get in is going to look at that and go "I can cut the latch tongue with tin snips" and that's the end of it. The lock is there to keep out people that would get in through "oh look it's not locked" or "I'm sure he won't mind if I borrow X". of course that's a typical example of where you might see a heavy duty lock body, I've seen a lot of guys in the shops put beefy looking locks on the boxes, while we all know that the design of their toolbox will stop someone that actually wants to get in for about 10 seconds, Or they'll just take the whole box.
When I was in Industrial Hygiene as a team leader we used these to Lock Out the machines for my operatives for cleaning, they were a pain in my proverbial, 30+ a night signing them in and out and checking their proper use. The keys used to jam up in the majority of these damn things and caused more problems than they fixed as in my operatives would "forget" to use them, which yes, lead to accidents.
Thanks for answering the LPL's question- if there is a requirement to be able to cut off a lotto lock as part of normal procedure, then it makes sense not to harden it. As for the other locks, if they look intimidating, people may believe that they are more secure and less likely to try picking it... allowing Master to cheap out on the cores.
Someone mentioned this elsewhere, but I think the reason why the core is so good is because you may have lots of very similar locks in a single place, and you have to make doubly sure that the wrong key won't open the wrong lock, and that might not be guaranteed with a low-security core due to accidental raking, "bumping" or just turning the key too hard.
These locks really aren't designed to be a security device. They're just a way to stop someone from walking up and energizing whatever is being worked on.
"These locks really aren't designed to be a security device. They're just a way to stop someone from walking up and energizing whatever is being worked on... So let's put there the most secure core we have" (C) someone on Master Lock Company meeting 😆
Exactly: they went with the security pins so someone couldn't pick it and say it was never on, but made it easy to break in case it needed to be removed by someone other than the person who put it on (but would be obvious that it had been removed)
what he may not realize it many times when doing a lock out tag out it can require multiple locks, where you have many departments that have to be notified and approve of placing the equipment or device back in service, these locks are also placed inside distribution panels with limited space making the small body locks more desirable. and of course they are used mostly to ensure that no one tries to operate equipment that's been taking out of service for either maintenance or repairs, not to prevent theft, your not going to rely on one of these to chain your Harley to a lamp post. I remember once while in the navy before lock out became standard practice it was just tag out, I was doing maintenance on filters for ventilation system, turned off the power and hung a tag on it, removed the filters for cleaning, when I came back someone had tossed my tag on to the floor and turned the blower back on, guess it was getting just a bit too warm for somebody. its a good thing I wasn't repairing or working on the blower motor itself.
I usually do the Loto Lockout in the Company i work at. We have the electricians Loto locks: They go an a loto Box with 1 or multiple keys inside wich belong to the machines locks. (Generally locking out Pneumatics(Green Lock), Hydraulics or the Load Circuits of electronics(Red Locks)(to keep displays etc functioning)) Personal Lotor are usually just brass/ Neutral People then add their own Locks to the Box.. and the Electricians Loto gets Removed last since he is also the one unlocking the locks whoes keys are in that box. Theys Electicians Loto keys are Just hanging in the Electricians Rooms. (we have second keys if one accidentaly takes one home with them) On Cutting the locks: The Worker Went home forgetting to remove it: We call the worker and also search the machine: then fill out an "Lock Cutting Paper" , Cut it and thats it. the Worker gets a new one.
Hi, practicing locksmith here: Master plastic body LOTO locks have key blanks you can't buy. The locks specifically come with only one key so there is accountability as to who can and can't remove the lock non-destructively from the equipment. Their catalog sells LOTO locks in two key configurations: Keyed-alike for a situation were one piece of equipment had multiple controls that needs to be secured and able to be removed by one key, and keyed different, for the previously mentioned reason where only one is allowed to have the key. And again, no extra blanks available. The only way to copy that blank, would be to use a $5,000 profile cutting machine like a Easy Entrei machine, or possible on an end-mill. This either requires a lot of money or skill.
Those LOTO locks are really just to make people think before they switch an isolated system back on. I have a set for electrical isolation. I would only expect the security to extend to someone opening the panel cover and thinking “Oh, it’s not tripped, it’s been isolated”.
Oh Mah Gawd! I am so thankful you did this reaction. I've never seen the lockpick lawyer before. I have heard of him but avoid lockpicking videos and training media. I prefer trial and error, since I'm just a hobbyist with no intent to pick more than the free locks I get given to me. More importantly about this reaction is that Riggin Friggin Rockin Frockin Master LOTO Lock. My wounded pride and ego has just been slightly vindicated. I had no confirmation behind my belief that something was not standard about the core. I am a self taught, sophomore/senior-ish junior lock pick hobbyist. What I mean is that the locks I'm able to pick, I can pick really fast, but my overall lock theology is neglected. Well, as this all pertains to that Master LOTO lock, that SOB lock is one that really wore me down learning it. Now I see why. I chose it believing it was going to be an elementary lock with loose tolerances and would require near to no effort to pick. I was fooled by the cheap looking housing for sure. Most locks I had experienced previous to getting the 410 took one to twenty minutes to get my first breach. The 410 stumped me for a long time of repeated visits. The only other lock to do this to me is a cheap no name lock. Cheap as in it was from the dollar store, but surprisingly not cheap at all in materials and tolerances. It took the better part of a week to figure out the dumbbell pins that messed with my head. Anyways, thanks again for the content. This might be my most favorite of your vids now. Cheers!
The “beefy intimidation” is aimed at the consumer, not the thief. The thief already knows. It’s to fool the consumer into thinking that it’s secure. Good cores are expensive and can push a lock into a new price category where there is either more competition or a category that just has less overall sales due to the cost of entry.
Most locks are at risk of being cut or smashed off as thieves don't care about destroying it, they just want the goods. For LOTO it might make sense that the pick resistance is what is important as it's used to monitor access and anything destructive would be obvious tampering. For theft the physical strength matters while for LOTO the ability to detect tampering matters, opposite uses so opposite investment in materials and design?
My guess is, the more pins means it's much less likely that a site will end up with two locks that take the same key. Just to make sure only the 'true key holder' can remove the lock (well, except for the obvious bolt-cutter 'master key' lol)
My dad uses these locks ona mine site when he’s working under a massive dump truck, you don’t want someone starting it up and crushing you. They also put danger tags everywhere when they’re working on those things
I work in a frozen food factory, one of my duties is to assign a storage location to pallets of frozen food after they've passed through a machine that applies shrink wrap. I have 2 LOTO to apply when I'm operating the machine during normal use. One for the access door and one for the compressed air supply. If the machine has a major bonk... I can also lock off the main breaker switch. That needs an electrician to fix... Typically I'll remove my lock when the electrician arrives and he'll apply his own.
I remember watching this LPL video and purchasing two of these locks. 30 seconds with a dremel and I could see how a padlock worked. I'm now working on picking the locks inside them. My locks even have plastic shackles.
A lot of the purpose of locks isn’t for preventing access but to deter access. If someone wants to get a lock open, and they know what they’re doing it will be opened. It’s the same for security guards their main purpose is to act as a deterrent.
One interesting theory I've seen in LPL's comment section that in the US where someone could easily have a gun or some really powerful cutting tool, it's a bigger risk than meeting a skilled locksmith. Like, 99% risk meeting a person carrying a gun or special tool than 1% meeting a highly skilled person who can open it without breaking it. Though it doesn't explain why some locks are so bad they could be opened with a stone or shimmed with a couple strips of plastic carved out of a PET bottle.
We had experimental nuclear reactors, each access gate had a unique key. If any key would was removed a “firing alarm” sounded, indicating you needed to leave the area. Only when all keys were inserted in to the “firing panel” could we do our test shot. The keys weren’t to restrict access, more to ensure personnel were clear. We had something similar in the military at ammunition facilities, you left your ID in a box prior to entry. That way they knew who was inside the facility and when it was clear (so they could release the war dogs).
While the two metal red locks are LOTO locks, you generally won't see these used in a plant by plant employees where the plant has a one lock, one key, one employee policy. Sometimes the aluminum ones are used when the lock is tethered to a lockout point, but these typically aren't carried by employees. The 4-pin core steel locks are more likely to be used by systems integrators that don't follow a one lock, one key, one employee policy (SI's don't care about key differs and locking out the machine is more of a formality). I do think the 6 pin core is used in the plastic lock because in one lock, one key, one employee systems (what this lock is intended for), you want a lot of key differs because there's a lot of locks out there, and because there's a lot of locks out there (that could potentially be cut off since there's only one key), it makes sense to make them as cheaply as possible and still perform the task at hand.
The question is less about 6 pins, and more about the security pins, eccentric keyway and the serrated pin on 5 - all of which feel superfluous on a lock with a body like this. There were surely cheaper ways to get the variety, such as the 9-pin locks from Godrej - so why make the core this good for a body this fragile?
4:23... Slight correction to that statement you made. Each lock is only supposed to have one person who can unlock it BUT there can be multiple locks on the same device. I worked in a facility that processed medical waste and needles and stuff and every few weeks when we would need to clean the autoclave out (think a big pressure cooker that can hold 50,000 lbs of medical waste) where we would have one locking device that we could use to lock out the machine that could than itself be locked with up to 20 different locks where so long as even one is still on it can't be unlocked and then we would have 12 people all attach a lock and go inside the autoclave to work on cleaning it out. That way if even one single person was still in the autoclave no one could start it up because if someone was in there and it got closed to get ran no one would be able to hear you through how think the metal had to be to be able to withstand those levels of pressure needed to sterilize the medical waste to then be processed. As such it is not one single person controlling it, but each and every person who is working on it, we also had a smaller version for 4 locks because we had two maintenance people plus occasionally the manager would help with maintenance of the other devices we had to use to process the medical waste. So if three people were working a machine you would put three locks on so that Maintenance man 1 can't accidently turn it on while maintenance man 2 is still in there just because maintenance man one saw manager leave and assumed it was all clear.
I think all comes from the LOTO use is a kind of niche market for a padlock maker, with its specific requirements, but not that large in production volume. I would guess the motivation is just to allow large number of unique lock/key pairs that may be needed at a large industry sites where the need to override/bust the LOTO is more likelu, while using stock components. The plastic body and the soft shackle (a specialties for a LOTO use) is used to allow the emergency "override", the high security core just because that is what is the available mainstream component for that number of unique combinations (so the 6 pins and the tighter tolerances). For the smaller sites fewer combinations is sufficient and the override not needed, a LOTO product could be just some common mainstream type (the 5 and 4 pin type), just painted in red and eventually with the dedicated print on it. And for most padlock uses, the body strength and the "beefy appearance" is indeed what is the most effective. Picking even a simple, low security core one, takes skill and time, but where just padlocks are used, there uses to be some easier method to go around it anyway, once someone takes some effort to prepare for the attack.
Doesn't matter how beefy it looks. If there is MASTER written on it's an invite to be quickly picked and often not even picking is necessary as they have well known security flaws. Basically a Master Lock is like a nuclear power plant with a heavily guarded front entry but the back door is open and all the important controls are right behind this door.
LOTO locks are a good indication that something is already wrong with the machine or system. At the very least someone will look around to make sure the technician isn't in the machinery. If the system is critical to the safety of the plant or the local population then there is already a huge problem. Odds are the warning signs is exactly what the tech is there to fix. Weirdest LOTO lock I've seen was on a dock door. Door would roll up but a key pin was worn out and sometimes the 400 pound door would slam down. That's when I learned that pin was considered a consumable part that would wear out over times. Some of the roll up doors at that facility were over 1000 pounds. At the very least a person would be having a bad day of the door randomly decided to not stay open and crush them.
I usually never have anything to do with stuff where LOTO locks are used, but I once visited a friend that works in a small university particle accelerator. All the entrances to the actual ring had these LOTO locks, which I expected, but what totally surprised me was that there were LOTO keys on all places where ladders were stored as the radiation zone was technically a cone. Not really related to this video or the LPLs video, but that's an interesting memory this video triggered :)
That’s really interesting. If I’m understanding you right, that’s like a “reverse LO/TO.” I’m used to putting these things on equipment to lock it into a safe state before working on it. It sounds like the ones at your facility were to deny access to the dangerous area until the equipment had been put in a safe state.
I think this lock is meant as a reusable seal. If you pick a LOTO lock, you don't leave any obvious evidence so they made it as hard as possible to pick it. Destruction in any way leaves clear evidence that the device it was securing was tampered with.
The small plastic lock probably only has the 6th pin because it’s bought in larger bulk making it far harder to insure all keys are not duplicated simply by virtue of using every combination in a single order. The more robust locks are made in smaller quantities and bought on more individual basis than in bulk so master lock can safely cut corners where it is cost effective. It’s probably less cost effective to make every 5 pin lock different when you can duplicate most of those and need only one pin to be different to solve the issue vs paying someone to be more accurate with 5 pins.
Yeah, everywhere I've worked in the nuclear industry, and even going back to my Navy career, 'violating a red tag' was a HUGE no-no. Could get you hauled up before the Captain, and your shipmates would certainly 'calibrate' your a$$. They are a matter of life or death to your co-worker/ shipmate. It's a matter of trust, not 'security'. Oh, and some places like the control room, we didn't even use 'locks', we just used tags and that was enough.
I guess for some locks, it's more important to make sure that it's obvious when it's been bypassed than it is to prevent bypass. If this lock were easy to pick or bypass non destructively, it wouldn't have the same value in terms of safety procedures.
You're right, it wouldn't have the same value. But the difference in that value is actually very little. Since the #1 purpose is to prevent accidental operation of the machine, resulting in injury to maintenance, the operator, machine damage, or all the above. The secondary purpose is to deter you from bypassing the lock through non forced entry. Deter, as in redirect your thought process to the fact that you should not touch the lock. And that mindset comes from your workplace safety culture. If I saw anyone bypassing a safety lock through non forced entry (obviously report it) But I would not be working there anymore.
You got my "you need to cut them". I guess the aim is to make the non-key removal destructive, so it is obvious that you've broken the lock rather than just unlocked.
I would bet it’s a economical thing. Like to add the core to civilian applications would add significant cost that the nuclear plant isn’t going to be bothered by and they just want an overly secure lock that can be broken in an emergency.
At the site i work at the rule is the reds each person has a key that can be to multiple locks (all the locks are just for you but they may have multiple keys as each lock comes with a key) then there are the yellow which can have up to 5 locks to one key that are used for the machine isolation and then put in a box that is locked by a green lock that is 1-1 and then each of us lock onto that box with our red.
There is a bit of "intimidation factor" at play on the other locks. The main issue is that real thefts and destructive crimes don't involve picking locks. Partially because it's a learned skill that takes time to master, but also these crimes are usually quick and the criminal is expected to have fled the scene in less than 10 minutes. Even a good lock picker can burn 5 minutes on an unfamiliar lock, compare that to braking a window and unlocking a door through the opening, or entering through an unlocked upper window via a ladder. There's less time exposed before entry that could arouse suspicion, compared to kneeling in front of an entryway for several minutes. It's a matter of least resistance, there's often easier ways to bypass security than through the lock.
LOTO locks are simply visual cues that a certain system is not supposed to be energized or operated, as T. Folse stated its an OSHA/work safety step. Worse than the locks themselves is the clip we use to be able to lock more than one LOTO lock on a single system. It can be easily removed with hand tools. Again, its simply there to indicate a system is not to be operated until the owner of the lock has completed their maintenance. Hence the crux- Why such a good core here BUT NOT on a lock designed to actually secure valuables? SMH [edited to correct the spelling of the content-creator's name]
He's not so much complaining tha the LOTO locks are easily breakable, just that Master Lock, with their pompous motto and several "unpickable" and "unbreakable" locks, CAN design a pretty great lock, but only chooses to use that one in the least secure lock body while their regular use locks are made in hulk levels of protection but vulnerable to picking. And yeah, sure, a lock needs to be openable in case the key is lost or broken, but for personal use, more often than not, it should take a locksmith, someone whose job and focus is in picking locks, not a guy with a hammer or someone who watched a tutorial on picking locks. And by LPL's many showcases of Master locks, well, a whole bunch of them can be opened by just knocking them lightly with a hammer, take under 10 seconds to pick if you know what you're doing and maybe a minute if you don't, and can easily be broken with brute force.
Most of the people who have access to these locks also have the tools and know-how to bust the lock open in seconds (you can do this with approval if a lock owner loses their key or goes missing). I suppose the important design requirements for LOTO locks is that there are many unique keys that won't ever work on the wrong lock (could easily cause an accidental death), and that they can't have a big chunky form factor because they need to fit into the often cramped spaces where LOTO devices are used. Sometimes you can have a bunch of them right next to each other in a tiny cabinet. If someone wants to purposefully tamper with a LOTO lock without authorisation that's an instant termination offense and the lock being weak isn't really the problem there.
The research says that having a lock of any kind on something prevents the overwhelming majority of potential break ins. How good the lock actually is or not doesn't gain you a whole lot of extra coverage beyond that and forcible entry is more common than a pick attack as well.
Locks are definitely more of a deterrent than a security solution. I mean a skilled lockpick can get through most locks as the lockpickinglawer has repeatedly done.
It might be quite secure for a master lock lock, but that means nothing. If you want to see a very secure lock I recommend his video 1398. It's a lock for which he needs a special tool for and even then it takes him far longer than for most locks.
Makes sense since theyre almost meant to be broken, the heavier locks would be more worried about someone breaking into them then someone picking them and then replacing the lock after
It comes down to money. You can charge huge amounts of money for the red lock for government regulated uses and all they care about is certain security aspects, while other locks are concerned for other security aspects. None of the requirements need to make logical sense.
I have no issue with LOTO locks as they are an amazing safety feature to have on hand. I can also agree with the lock body being easier to break than a standard lock for the emergency reason of not being able to get the key and needing to power on whatever the lock is attached to. I do however think they could use a less secure core. It's a case of the lock stopping accidental use rather than someone who is set to using said thing. Even a 4 pin core will still offer thousands of different cuts available for keying options.
I feel it has more to do with tamper evidence than whether or not you can break it off. If this lock were to be removed by someone who was not intended to use it, that could mean major injury or death. If it were easy to pick, it could be manipulated and put back into place without anyone knowing.
Yes, it seems critical that a lock not be removed and replaced without anyone knowing. That can lead to major problems. Some people do know how to do it, but solving that issue is not up to the manufacturer, it's the workplace's responsibility to foster a safety culture so this does not happen. ANY tampering of a LOTO lock is an offense you get fired for at my workplace.
He has a video on something relatively cool imo, it's a game for kids that lets them pick locks...I'm not making this up there is a game where each person gets a lock with exchangeable 'cores' ranging from easy to hard and it's a race to 'pick' the lock first. Of course he's not exactly the guy you wanna play against lol.
I work in a manufacturing plant and use these locks extensively. We even have different colors for the status of what is being locked out. Red = temporary, Green = long term, blue = supervisor at shift change and I can't remember what yellow means, might have the blue and yellow mixed up. I cannot tell you the amount of times the locks have been cut off because of the operator forgetting to remove them when they were done cleaning at the end of their shift and couldn't be contacted. This was in the past though as I think that the issuer now either has a master key or a spare key for the lock. New guards and regulations were implemented and now an entire department (30+ machines per shift) has to lock their machines out to clean them. 1st guess as to why the core needs to be strong and not the lock. Bolt cutters or tools needed to break even a weak lock aren't readily available and in most cases the operators just have the basic tools they need to run their machines. Exp... calipers, tape measures, crescent wrench, hammer, cleaning tools. Heavy machinery operators would have the tools that could defeat the lock, but in most cases those operators are older and unlikely too. 2nd guess, Lawyers
At my workplace it is still 1 lock 1 key and the key stays with the employee that put it there. After an inspection and hopefully being able to contact said employee. If it was deemed safe to operate then we would have to cut the lock off. I empathize with your plight of always having to cut so many off, that does sound ridiculous. However, if someone repeatedly forgot to remove their lock then they would get fired.
Well the intimidation factor is quickly nullifies by them putting that big Master logo on there. Anyone who knows anything about locks then instantly know that it's a nead indestructible lock filles with creame cheese.
There's no paradox. The locks were built with specific purposes in mind. Lock picking is not a common skill. And it takes practice. In the vast majority of instances, it is easier to brute force an attack on the lock hardware or to whatever the lock is attached to instead. So those other locks are built to withstand brute force. The LOTO locks are not a physical security feature. They are not meant to bar access but to ensure people don't get accidental access wither at the wrong time or to the wrong piece of equipment. They are most likely to be used in situations where there are probably multiple similar if not identical locks in use, all with relatively similar keys. Thus to accomplish their function, they need to be designed to be able to work with only one key even as the keys and locks start to wear down with age and use. Hence the more robust core is what is needed to accomplish their task. And even the seemingly poorly made housing for the LOTO locks makes perfect sense. In the event that one of those locks needs to be removed without the key, they are almost always going to be installed on equipment that is far more important and valuable than the lock. If a tech drops his key for a LOTO lock, you don't want to risk damaging the machine that the lock was installed when you are trying to get that machine back up and running.
Everyone should watch LPL for recommendations before buying a lock. Especially gun locks if you have a child or children who regularly visit your home. Most are terrible
Masterlock have a reputation for claiming to be very secure, and claiming to be unpickable - but in reality are trivial to pick, or even rake open But this lockout lock as you say is designed to be cut open (and so is not hardened and plastic), but has a very good core for seemingly no reason at all, anyone wanting to pick it can just cut it off instead ? Is there some kind of requirement that means Masterlock is forced to use a decent core?
Think you kind of answered the question when you said it's a requirement that no two keys is the same. Those locks are bought in bulk, and very few cores can document that no two keys can open the same lock when bought in great numbers. As a engineer in the industry you probably know they won't buy anything without a perfect track record. And it could be really expensive providing the certification this industry needs making a new core over providing their "best" core that's already certified for the job.
The reasons for different lock bodies and corse for LOTO locks vs security locks are the implmentation and use. Most people who commit theft are more incline to break locks rather than pick them. Mechanical failure in locks are easier to learn and require little skill or practice. But picking locks requires finnesse and practice to be proficient at picking a blind lock (a lock you've never picked before or know it's core internals). Most consumer security locks are beefy and robust for that reason, but use easier or smaller cores. However to open LOTO locks are easy to destroy but hard to pick to prevent covert removals (like lock picking). In an industrial setting you are more likely to notice someone destroying a lock than picking one. Why not have the best of both worlds for both kinds of locks? You have already answered. In an emergency, you need to be able to readily remove a LOTO lock with fair ease, but at that point, everyone knows what you're doing and why. If you made a robust and difficult core, for a consumer, that lock would be incredibly expensive, and thus no one would buy them anyways.
paradox - Because apparently no one needs locks that are both physically resistant and pick resistant? Or the vast majority of situations only require the lock to be good at one of those two things? A conundrum for sure. 😊
No. Paradox is that this lock is for safety not for security, so security pins have no real purpose and the same time Masterlock "high security" locks are easy to pick or super easy to bypass.
its easy, you need to know if opening was not done by owner of key. so if body is week you can open it by destroy body but then it will be know that was not authorized method. if pick will be easy how you will know that was not authorized method??
The reason is the illusion of choice. If they made a lock with a good body and good core, everyone would buy it, and if they made a lock with a bad core and body nobody would buy it. They alternate core/body integrity to keep sales on all models up.
Even Master Lock’s best core is nowhere near close to the best core ever. It’s a common hobby to get challenge locks for picking that a fellow locksmith has designed to be unpickable.
![[479] The Master Lock Paradox - Model 410 LOTO Padlock](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/y4XGY0_cwcM/mqdefault.jpg)
Thanks so much for watching! If you want to check out my reaction to a “nuclear launch key” from Lockpicking Lawyer, please check out: th-cam.com/video/YTWEHT__G_A/w-d-xo.htmlsi=c1N7mc8ib0A0qRXe
You don't want to accidentally stuck your head in a partical beam...
Yep that happened.
th-cam.com/video/mD4J5VUwiAs/w-d-xo.htmlsi=9eMopFd8HLmPR9t0
As the person from a tech crew, who sometimes uses those things, i can find reasons for making this lock in that way. More pins means more combinations for the key - more people can have unique keys. Strange thing is putting security pins in there. This is not a security lock. This is just a warning to not to turn some machines on. So i completly get it being made from easily destructible materials just in case a person who put a lock on, cannot be contacted because their shift is finished. For me it is normal even if you use a screwdriver to "secure" a power switch. Any other tech seeing such thing knows to check the whole machine area for other techs working on such thing. This is more for dumb operators switching on things, just because they are switched off. All of the tech crew will take a stroll, shout and check if they see even a paperclip pushed through that switch hole to make an extra effort to switch on the machine. And that's all it is ment to do - extra effort for someone else to consider, there might be another person in danger if you just flip that switch.
Masterlock has a bit of a reputation amongst his followers. My favorite joke I've seen there is "A master key opens any lock, a Masterlock is opened by any key."
Remember you can open a masterlock with a different masterlock
@@shanewhite1977McNally moment
It's not just his followers, it's the picking community in general.... And it's a reputation well earned...
@@Freezerohmatic I honestly haven't heard it from anyone outside the lock picking niche.
I mean, I learned how to pick their combination locks in elementary school, 50 years later, I still can.
The worst part of Master's lineup is that their flagship padlock, the Magnum 930 (the last one he showed), has a massive *known* security flaw.
Master decided to put a rubber weather cover on the bottom of the lock. To hold it in place, they extended the core retention nut by a quarter of an inch. If you simply rip the rubber cover off, you can grab a hold of the retention nut with a pair of channel locking pliers and pry it out. The internals of the lock will all come out, and the lock will open.
That flaw has been known for at least six or seven years.
A lot of the exploits that open 98% of the locks you'll ever encounter in the US have been around for decades to centuries. It's a pretty bad industry.
Definitely. I've been picking for years, and some of the stuff is inexcusable, like overlift attacks.
MasterLock Magnum 930: The strongest padlock MasterLock makes
McNally: ** P L I E R S **
Damn, and I thought it was bad that most padlocks from Master can be opened using most padlocks from Master.
@@derpderpin1568 LockPickingLawyer actually gave a presentation at SaintCon (a digital security conference) about this! It's crazy how resistant the physical security industry has been to change, especially when compared to digital security...
The 6-pin LOTO lock is purposely not made to be indestructable, exactly for the reasons you mentioned. They're used to lockout people, but has to be malleable enough to be removed in an emergency situation.
That's exactly my thoughts too. They use more pins on the lock, so there are much more key combinations (unique ones) to use those locks. But the lock itself has to be relatively easy to take off in case of a problem to contact a person who put a lock on a device, but is not possible to contact them - they finnished their shift and they switched off the work phone. A bit of twisted logic, but still, it can be solid from a certain perspective 😁
His question was, why does it have such a good quality pic resistant core
@@neilkurzman4907 This is indeed a mistery. Masterlock's strategy geniuses work in weird ways i suppose 😁
Some of their LOTO padlocks are more durable though, as shown in this video.
@@ogi22 I assume to make it harder for bored annoyed technically inclined people to remove them without breaking them? Because that would be BAD.
LOTO saves lives but it's only as good as the operation's safety culture and the operators tasked with using it.
LOTO only stops stupid accidents.
@@Eluderatnight As opposed to "non-stupid" accidents? 💀
Tell me about it, my operatives would "forget" to use them because they were a pain in the butt.
@@seanspartan2023 "non-stupid accident" would be a novel situation without warning signs. IE all procedures were followed but it still went sideways.
Edit: one thing I could think of is a blown bleeder resistor in a capacitor bank. It will pass visual inspection, then you touch anywhere in the system and your heart stops or short/burn out something.
if you forget to use them in my field of work you get fired, no questions asked. you're gone.@@davidkaye8712
LPL later mused that it may be so that a LOTO lock is easy to break with evidence of tampering, but hard to pick leaving no evidence of tampering. The other locks are easy to pick, but hard to break as evidence of tampering is no longer.
As someone who got into locksport thanks to BosnianBill and LockPickingLawyer, Master is known to be the best beginner practice lock brand. Along with all of the faults LPL noted in this video, Master allows for locks with all pins being the same cut. I acquired one of these myself. You can literally pick it with a bobby pin and nothing else. I had to toss that lock because it was so frustratingly easy to pick that it was preventing me from learning new techniques with any skill because it’d just pop open as soon as I put the pick in and touch the pins.
These days I have to go out of my way to look for challenging locks. The ones found in local stores just don’t cut it anymore.
Unless a worker forgot to take it off and you call him to make sure what ever equipment or circuit he was working on is in safe and in working order, there is not many circumstances where you should remove someone’s loto.
I do wonder if it's based on safety regulation. Make something easy to bolt cut by Admin, but difficult to bypass by rank-and-file.
yeah, bc picking is harder to detect than destroying a plastic body
Sometimes people forget to remove locks after finishing, if they go home and it's verified nobody is working on it it can be cut off.
@@patricktho6546I think you may have hit the nail on the head actually. Harden them against non-destructive attacks so it’s obvious to the owner when one is opened by someone who isn’t the owner. That way you don’t lose the chain of custody by re-locking the system out with the same lock and without the owners knowledge.
If the lock is removed in an emergency, and the lock owner isn’t present. Then when they return, they’ll know they have to re-certify the system is in a safe state for work to continue even if no one tells them.
That was what Tyler was getting at when he was going on about cutting it off in certain situations. I think LPL's main point was that on locks that are supposed to be secure against all forms of entry, both cutting and picking they use rubbish cores whereas on locks that don't need to be so secure (in general but mainly against cutting) they use much better cores.
Sort of. The specific regulation is that whoever puts it on retains exclusive access to the key and is the only person who can remove the lock.
However, regulations do allow for removal if the operator cannot be reached. All reasonable methods to reach the operator must be exhausted as the ideal is that they personally remove it. If they cannot be reached or cannot come in, they MUST be notified in person (I think phone may also be allowed I'll have to brush up on that) before the start of their next shift that the lock has been removed. That's why regulation also specifies a name be on the tag.
I operate a large double span hydraulically powered concrete swing bridge. These locks aren't used too often, mostly for locking out circuits or generators. We usually remove keys and use yellow (caution, communicate before operating) or red (do not operate, remove key and take key with you) tags to denote work is being done on certain parts. It's really interesting to see what other industrial workplaces may use for LOTO situations.
Funny thing is, you kind of giggled when he mentioned picking open locks while watching a movie, but I totally relate to that. I have issues focusing due to restless energy, and while my go-to isn't currently lockpicking (I got into trouble for that from a friend cause the clicking was distracting), I've moved to solving a very quiet rubik's cube while I movie watch with friends, to keep my mind free
I got into lockpicking as a hobby after watching LPL. If you like puzzles and challenging yourself, it's great fun. And like LPL said, you can do it while watching TV. For a little while there, my wife wouldn't let me out of her sight whenever we went to the hardware store. If I disappeared, she knew I was making my way over to the padlock or door lock section. 😂 Increasingly fancier locks tend to also become increasingly expensive. 🤷
I'm glad you mentioned the reason the standard LoTo lock is non hardened, they are there so someone doesn't accidently harm someone while they are working, or accidently activate a faulty system. However, if they lose a key, or there is an emergency, they need to be able to be cut open quickly. I've never had it where it was a need to open one immediately but We did lose the keys to one, then per policy of the company I was at, we had to fill out a bunch of paperwork to describe why we cut the lock. Just for record keeping that hey, we lost the key, we removed the lock.
Also, yeah, most locks are there to keep honest people honest. They act as a deterrent, The reality is that if someone is going to break into something, Think about the standard toolbox latch over eye lock setup, doesn't matter if you put the best lock in the world on it, Someone that wants to get in is going to look at that and go "I can cut the latch tongue with tin snips" and that's the end of it. The lock is there to keep out people that would get in through "oh look it's not locked" or "I'm sure he won't mind if I borrow X". of course that's a typical example of where you might see a heavy duty lock body, I've seen a lot of guys in the shops put beefy looking locks on the boxes, while we all know that the design of their toolbox will stop someone that actually wants to get in for about 10 seconds, Or they'll just take the whole box.
When I was in Industrial Hygiene as a team leader we used these to Lock Out the machines for my operatives for cleaning, they were a pain in my proverbial, 30+ a night signing them in and out and checking their proper use. The keys used to jam up in the majority of these damn things and caused more problems than they fixed as in my operatives would "forget" to use them, which yes, lead to accidents.
"You are using a master lock model 176, you can open it using a master lock model 176"
Ahhh, is this a McNallyOfficial fan I see...?😉🔓🤘😀
Thanks for answering the LPL's question- if there is a requirement to be able to cut off a lotto lock as part of normal procedure, then it makes sense not to harden it.
As for the other locks, if they look intimidating, people may believe that they are more secure and less likely to try picking it... allowing Master to cheap out on the cores.
Someone mentioned this elsewhere, but I think the reason why the core is so good is because you may have lots of very similar locks in a single place, and you have to make doubly sure that the wrong key won't open the wrong lock, and that might not be guaranteed with a low-security core due to accidental raking, "bumping" or just turning the key too hard.
These locks really aren't designed to be a security device. They're just a way to stop someone from walking up and energizing whatever is being worked on.
The video couldn’t have been more clear about that.
Captain obvious strikes again
@@earth-chan9577 But if he doesn't do it, then who will?
"These locks really aren't designed to be a security device. They're just a way to stop someone from walking up and energizing whatever is being worked on... So let's put there the most secure core we have" (C) someone on Master Lock Company meeting 😆
Exactly: they went with the security pins so someone couldn't pick it and say it was never on, but made it easy to break in case it needed to be removed by someone other than the person who put it on (but would be obvious that it had been removed)
"These are not security locks."
Also:
"These are fairly robust!"
what he may not realize it many times when doing a lock out tag out it can require multiple locks, where you have many departments that have to be notified and approve of placing the equipment or device back in service, these locks are also placed inside distribution panels with limited space making the small body locks more desirable. and of course they are used mostly to ensure that no one tries to operate equipment that's been taking out of service for either maintenance or repairs, not to prevent theft, your not going to rely on one of these to chain your Harley to a lamp post. I remember once while in the navy before lock out became standard practice it was just tag out, I was doing maintenance on filters for ventilation system, turned off the power and hung a tag on it, removed the filters for cleaning, when I came back someone had tossed my tag on to the floor and turned the blower back on, guess it was getting just a bit too warm for somebody. its a good thing I wasn't repairing or working on the blower motor itself.
I usually do the Loto Lockout in the Company i work at.
We have the electricians Loto locks: They go an a loto Box with 1 or multiple keys inside wich belong to the machines locks. (Generally locking out Pneumatics(Green Lock), Hydraulics or the Load Circuits of electronics(Red Locks)(to keep displays etc functioning)) Personal Lotor are usually just brass/ Neutral
People then add their own Locks to the Box.. and the Electricians Loto gets Removed last since he is also the one unlocking the locks whoes keys are in that box.
Theys Electicians Loto keys are Just hanging in the Electricians Rooms. (we have second keys if one accidentaly takes one home with them)
On Cutting the locks: The Worker Went home forgetting to remove it: We call the worker and also search the machine: then fill out an "Lock Cutting Paper" , Cut it and thats it. the Worker gets a new one.
Hi, practicing locksmith here:
Master plastic body LOTO locks have key blanks you can't buy. The locks specifically come with only one key so there is accountability as to who can and can't remove the lock non-destructively from the equipment. Their catalog sells LOTO locks in two key configurations: Keyed-alike for a situation were one piece of equipment had multiple controls that needs to be secured and able to be removed by one key, and keyed different, for the previously mentioned reason where only one is allowed to have the key. And again, no extra blanks available.
The only way to copy that blank, would be to use a $5,000 profile cutting machine like a Easy Entrei machine, or possible on an end-mill. This either requires a lot of money or skill.
Those LOTO locks are really just to make people think before they switch an isolated system back on. I have a set for electrical isolation. I would only expect the security to extend to someone opening the panel cover and thinking “Oh, it’s not tripped, it’s been isolated”.
Ah master lock masters at disappointing
This comment is severely underrated
master at masterring how to master masterlocks with the criteria of mastering dissapointment
This Masterlock is the least disappointing.
It's congfusing because it's for safety not security, but it has better core than most Masterlocks.
Oh Mah Gawd! I am so thankful you did this reaction. I've never seen the lockpick lawyer before. I have heard of him but avoid lockpicking videos and training media. I prefer trial and error, since I'm just a hobbyist with no intent to pick more than the free locks I get given to me. More importantly about this reaction is that Riggin Friggin Rockin Frockin Master LOTO Lock. My wounded pride and ego has just been slightly vindicated. I had no confirmation behind my belief that something was not standard about the core. I am a self taught, sophomore/senior-ish junior lock pick hobbyist. What I mean is that the locks I'm able to pick, I can pick really fast, but my overall lock theology is neglected. Well, as this all pertains to that Master LOTO lock, that SOB lock is one that really wore me down learning it. Now I see why. I chose it believing it was going to be an elementary lock with loose tolerances and would require near to no effort to pick. I was fooled by the cheap looking housing for sure. Most locks I had experienced previous to getting the 410 took one to twenty minutes to get my first breach. The 410 stumped me for a long time of repeated visits. The only other lock to do this to me is a cheap no name lock. Cheap as in it was from the dollar store, but surprisingly not cheap at all in materials and tolerances. It took the better part of a week to figure out the dumbbell pins that messed with my head. Anyways, thanks again for the content. This might be my most favorite of your vids now. Cheers!
I LOVE lockpickinglawyer. He was the reason I bought my first set of Lockpicks and it's an incredibly rewarding hobby.
The “beefy intimidation” is aimed at the consumer, not the thief. The thief already knows. It’s to fool the consumer into thinking that it’s secure. Good cores are expensive and can push a lock into a new price category where there is either more competition or a category that just has less overall sales due to the cost of entry.
Most locks are at risk of being cut or smashed off as thieves don't care about destroying it, they just want the goods. For LOTO it might make sense that the pick resistance is what is important as it's used to monitor access and anything destructive would be obvious tampering. For theft the physical strength matters while for LOTO the ability to detect tampering matters, opposite uses so opposite investment in materials and design?
My guess is, the more pins means it's much less likely that a site will end up with two locks that take the same key. Just to make sure only the 'true key holder' can remove the lock (well, except for the obvious bolt-cutter 'master key' lol)
My dad uses these locks ona mine site when he’s working under a massive dump truck, you don’t want someone starting it up and crushing you. They also put danger tags everywhere when they’re working on those things
I work in a frozen food factory, one of my duties is to assign a storage location to pallets of frozen food after they've passed through a machine that applies shrink wrap.
I have 2 LOTO to apply when I'm operating the machine during normal use.
One for the access door and one for the compressed air supply.
If the machine has a major bonk... I can also lock off the main breaker switch. That needs an electrician to fix... Typically I'll remove my lock when the electrician arrives and he'll apply his own.
Typically in my workplace, if you are still on shift then your lock stays on as well as the electricians.
There is an intimidation factor in security but it will only deter amateurs.
I remember watching this LPL video and purchasing two of these locks. 30 seconds with a dremel and I could see how a padlock worked. I'm now working on picking the locks inside them. My locks even have plastic shackles.
A lot of the purpose of locks isn’t for preventing access but to deter access. If someone wants to get a lock open, and they know what they’re doing it will be opened.
It’s the same for security guards their main purpose is to act as a deterrent.
One interesting theory I've seen in LPL's comment section that in the US where someone could easily have a gun or some really powerful cutting tool, it's a bigger risk than meeting a skilled locksmith. Like, 99% risk meeting a person carrying a gun or special tool than 1% meeting a highly skilled person who can open it without breaking it.
Though it doesn't explain why some locks are so bad they could be opened with a stone or shimmed with a couple strips of plastic carved out of a PET bottle.
We had experimental nuclear reactors, each access gate had a unique key. If any key would was removed a “firing alarm” sounded, indicating you needed to leave the area. Only when all keys were inserted in to the “firing panel” could we do our test shot. The keys weren’t to restrict access, more to ensure personnel were clear.
We had something similar in the military at ammunition facilities, you left your ID in a box prior to entry. That way they knew who was inside the facility and when it was clear (so they could release the war dogs).
While the two metal red locks are LOTO locks, you generally won't see these used in a plant by plant employees where the plant has a one lock, one key, one employee policy. Sometimes the aluminum ones are used when the lock is tethered to a lockout point, but these typically aren't carried by employees. The 4-pin core steel locks are more likely to be used by systems integrators that don't follow a one lock, one key, one employee policy (SI's don't care about key differs and locking out the machine is more of a formality). I do think the 6 pin core is used in the plastic lock because in one lock, one key, one employee systems (what this lock is intended for), you want a lot of key differs because there's a lot of locks out there, and because there's a lot of locks out there (that could potentially be cut off since there's only one key), it makes sense to make them as cheaply as possible and still perform the task at hand.
The question is less about 6 pins, and more about the security pins, eccentric keyway and the serrated pin on 5 - all of which feel superfluous on a lock with a body like this. There were surely cheaper ways to get the variety, such as the 9-pin locks from Godrej - so why make the core this good for a body this fragile?
4:23... Slight correction to that statement you made. Each lock is only supposed to have one person who can unlock it BUT there can be multiple locks on the same device. I worked in a facility that processed medical waste and needles and stuff and every few weeks when we would need to clean the autoclave out (think a big pressure cooker that can hold 50,000 lbs of medical waste) where we would have one locking device that we could use to lock out the machine that could than itself be locked with up to 20 different locks where so long as even one is still on it can't be unlocked and then we would have 12 people all attach a lock and go inside the autoclave to work on cleaning it out. That way if even one single person was still in the autoclave no one could start it up because if someone was in there and it got closed to get ran no one would be able to hear you through how think the metal had to be to be able to withstand those levels of pressure needed to sterilize the medical waste to then be processed.
As such it is not one single person controlling it, but each and every person who is working on it, we also had a smaller version for 4 locks because we had two maintenance people plus occasionally the manager would help with maintenance of the other devices we had to use to process the medical waste. So if three people were working a machine you would put three locks on so that Maintenance man 1 can't accidently turn it on while maintenance man 2 is still in there just because maintenance man one saw manager leave and assumed it was all clear.
I think all comes from the LOTO use is a kind of niche market for a padlock maker, with its specific requirements, but not that large in production volume.
I would guess the motivation is just to allow large number of unique lock/key pairs that may be needed at a large industry sites where the need to override/bust the LOTO is more likelu, while using stock components. The plastic body and the soft shackle (a specialties for a LOTO use) is used to allow the emergency "override", the high security core just because that is what is the available mainstream component for that number of unique combinations (so the 6 pins and the tighter tolerances).
For the smaller sites fewer combinations is sufficient and the override not needed, a LOTO product could be just some common mainstream type (the 5 and 4 pin type), just painted in red and eventually with the dedicated print on it.
And for most padlock uses, the body strength and the "beefy appearance" is indeed what is the most effective. Picking even a simple, low security core one, takes skill and time, but where just padlocks are used, there uses to be some easier method to go around it anyway, once someone takes some effort to prepare for the attack.
Doesn't matter how beefy it looks. If there is MASTER written on it's an invite to be quickly picked and often not even picking is necessary as they have well known security flaws.
Basically a Master Lock is like a nuclear power plant with a heavily guarded front entry but the back door is open and all the important controls are right behind this door.
Another strange thing with these locks is they come with 2 keys, so the first thing you have to do is throw one of the keys away
LOTO locks are a good indication that something is already wrong with the machine or system. At the very least someone will look around to make sure the technician isn't in the machinery. If the system is critical to the safety of the plant or the local population then there is already a huge problem. Odds are the warning signs is exactly what the tech is there to fix.
Weirdest LOTO lock I've seen was on a dock door. Door would roll up but a key pin was worn out and sometimes the 400 pound door would slam down. That's when I learned that pin was considered a consumable part that would wear out over times. Some of the roll up doors at that facility were over 1000 pounds. At the very least a person would be having a bad day of the door randomly decided to not stay open and crush them.
I usually never have anything to do with stuff where LOTO locks are used, but I once visited a friend that works in a small university particle accelerator. All the entrances to the actual ring had these LOTO locks, which I expected, but what totally surprised me was that there were LOTO keys on all places where ladders were stored as the radiation zone was technically a cone.
Not really related to this video or the LPLs video, but that's an interesting memory this video triggered :)
That’s really interesting. If I’m understanding you right, that’s like a “reverse LO/TO.”
I’m used to putting these things on equipment to lock it into a safe state before working on it.
It sounds like the ones at your facility were to deny access to the dangerous area until the equipment had been put in a safe state.
I think this lock is meant as a reusable seal.
If you pick a LOTO lock, you don't leave any obvious evidence so they made it as hard as possible to pick it. Destruction in any way leaves clear evidence that the device it was securing was tampered with.
The small plastic lock probably only has the 6th pin because it’s bought in larger bulk making it far harder to insure all keys are not duplicated simply by virtue of using every combination in a single order.
The more robust locks are made in smaller quantities and bought on more individual basis than in bulk so master lock can safely cut corners where it is cost effective.
It’s probably less cost effective to make every 5 pin lock different when you can duplicate most of those and need only one pin to be different to solve the issue vs paying someone to be more accurate with 5 pins.
Yeah, everywhere I've worked in the nuclear industry, and even going back to my Navy career, 'violating a red tag' was a HUGE no-no. Could get you hauled up before the Captain, and your shipmates would certainly 'calibrate' your a$$. They are a matter of life or death to your co-worker/ shipmate. It's a matter of trust, not 'security'.
Oh, and some places like the control room, we didn't even use 'locks', we just used tags and that was enough.
I guess for some locks, it's more important to make sure that it's obvious when it's been bypassed than it is to prevent bypass. If this lock were easy to pick or bypass non destructively, it wouldn't have the same value in terms of safety procedures.
You're right, it wouldn't have the same value. But the difference in that value is actually very little. Since the #1 purpose is to prevent accidental operation of the machine, resulting in injury to maintenance, the operator, machine damage, or all the above. The secondary purpose is to deter you from bypassing the lock through non forced entry. Deter, as in redirect your thought process to the fact that you should not touch the lock. And that mindset comes from your workplace safety culture. If I saw anyone bypassing a safety lock through non forced entry (obviously report it) But I would not be working there anymore.
You got my "you need to cut them". I guess the aim is to make the non-key removal destructive, so it is obvious that you've broken the lock rather than just unlocked.
Regarding the intimidation factor of the "heavy duty" locks, I'm reminded of the adage "a lock only keeps out honest thieves."
Maybe they should have a bolt cutter readily available in industrial settings to break the lock in emergency situations.
This deserved a video! you don't hear "Robust" and "Masterlock" in the same sentence everyday ;-)
There is a saying.
Key that open anything, Master Key.
Lock that open to anything, Master Lock.
intimidation is a good bit of it. Most people don't know. But usually people with lockpicking skills do know.
I would bet it’s a economical thing. Like to add the core to civilian applications would add significant cost that the nuclear plant isn’t going to be bothered by and they just want an overly secure lock that can be broken in an emergency.
7:10 oh and we get to deal with those number 3s along with a number of other locks on the majority of the trailers we get from the DC
Master locks are heavily memed in the lock sport community.
I'd love it if you made a video about a channel called "the proper people" specifically them exploring an abandoned nuclear power plant
At the site i work at the rule is the reds each person has a key that can be to multiple locks (all the locks are just for you but they may have multiple keys as each lock comes with a key) then there are the yellow which can have up to 5 locks to one key that are used for the machine isolation and then put in a box that is locked by a green lock that is 1-1 and then each of us lock onto that box with our red.
Best guess is that some fed regulation has requirements for lock internals.
6:52 I believe we actually use 65s for our compactor
The red plastic body is reinforced with "lose your career" fibers that prevent almost all improper cutting attempts.
or picking attemps :) maybe someone doesn't see you, but a lot of places have their own cameras now.
7:45
Bootstrap event of the power grid and the key holder for a station of the Crank path is unavailable ?
Locks keep honest people honest. If a dishonest person wants in…they’ll get in.
There is a bit of "intimidation factor" at play on the other locks. The main issue is that real thefts and destructive crimes don't involve picking locks. Partially because it's a learned skill that takes time to master, but also these crimes are usually quick and the criminal is expected to have fled the scene in less than 10 minutes. Even a good lock picker can burn 5 minutes on an unfamiliar lock, compare that to braking a window and unlocking a door through the opening, or entering through an unlocked upper window via a ladder. There's less time exposed before entry that could arouse suspicion, compared to kneeling in front of an entryway for several minutes. It's a matter of least resistance, there's often easier ways to bypass security than through the lock.
Well...that unless they have a rake. Low-skill, faster to use.
LOTO locks are simply visual cues that a certain system is not supposed to be energized or operated, as T. Folse stated its an OSHA/work safety step. Worse than the locks themselves is the clip we use to be able to lock more than one LOTO lock on a single system. It can be easily removed with hand tools. Again, its simply there to indicate a system is not to be operated until the owner of the lock has completed their maintenance. Hence the crux- Why such a good core here BUT NOT on a lock designed to actually secure valuables? SMH
[edited to correct the spelling of the content-creator's name]
He's not so much complaining tha the LOTO locks are easily breakable, just that Master Lock, with their pompous motto and several "unpickable" and "unbreakable" locks, CAN design a pretty great lock, but only chooses to use that one in the least secure lock body while their regular use locks are made in hulk levels of protection but vulnerable to picking.
And yeah, sure, a lock needs to be openable in case the key is lost or broken, but for personal use, more often than not, it should take a locksmith, someone whose job and focus is in picking locks, not a guy with a hammer or someone who watched a tutorial on picking locks. And by LPL's many showcases of Master locks, well, a whole bunch of them can be opened by just knocking them lightly with a hammer, take under 10 seconds to pick if you know what you're doing and maybe a minute if you don't, and can easily be broken with brute force.
Most of the people who have access to these locks also have the tools and know-how to bust the lock open in seconds (you can do this with approval if a lock owner loses their key or goes missing). I suppose the important design requirements for LOTO locks is that there are many unique keys that won't ever work on the wrong lock (could easily cause an accidental death), and that they can't have a big chunky form factor because they need to fit into the often cramped spaces where LOTO devices are used. Sometimes you can have a bunch of them right next to each other in a tiny cabinet. If someone wants to purposefully tamper with a LOTO lock without authorisation that's an instant termination offense and the lock being weak isn't really the problem there.
The research says that having a lock of any kind on something prevents the overwhelming majority of potential break ins. How good the lock actually is or not doesn't gain you a whole lot of extra coverage beyond that and forcible entry is more common than a pick attack as well.
Locks are definitely more of a deterrent than a security solution. I mean a skilled lockpick can get through most locks as the lockpickinglawer has repeatedly done.
It might be quite secure for a master lock lock, but that means nothing. If you want to see a very secure lock I recommend his video 1398. It's a lock for which he needs a special tool for and even then it takes him far longer than for most locks.
You have to watch more of LPL clips with MasterLock locks. The vast majority offer extremely poor protection.
Makes sense since theyre almost meant to be broken, the heavier locks would be more worried about someone breaking into them then someone picking them and then replacing the lock after
It comes down to money. You can charge huge amounts of money for the red lock for government regulated uses and all they care about is certain security aspects, while other locks are concerned for other security aspects.
None of the requirements need to make logical sense.
I have no issue with LOTO locks as they are an amazing safety feature to have on hand.
I can also agree with the lock body being easier to break than a standard lock for the emergency reason of not being able to get the key and needing to power on whatever the lock is attached to.
I do however think they could use a less secure core.
It's a case of the lock stopping accidental use rather than someone who is set to using said thing.
Even a 4 pin core will still offer thousands of different cuts available for keying options.
I feel it has more to do with tamper evidence than whether or not you can break it off.
If this lock were to be removed by someone who was not intended to use it, that could mean major injury or death.
If it were easy to pick, it could be manipulated and put back into place without anyone knowing.
Yes, it seems critical that a lock not be removed and replaced without anyone knowing. That can lead to major problems. Some people do know how to do it, but solving that issue is not up to the manufacturer, it's the workplace's responsibility to foster a safety culture so this does not happen. ANY tampering of a LOTO lock is an offense you get fired for at my workplace.
He has a video on something relatively cool imo, it's a game for kids that lets them pick locks...I'm not making this up there is a game where each person gets a lock with exchangeable 'cores' ranging from easy to hard and it's a race to 'pick' the lock first. Of course he's not exactly the guy you wanna play against lol.
Yup, its called Break Free- ask me how I know....🙄🔓😂👍
Oh yeah we have these at the tool and die plant I work at.
We never use them.
All in all, locks just keep honest people honest.
I work in a manufacturing plant and use these locks extensively. We even have different colors for the status of what is being locked out. Red = temporary, Green = long term, blue = supervisor at shift change and I can't remember what yellow means, might have the blue and yellow mixed up. I cannot tell you the amount of times the locks have been cut off because of the operator forgetting to remove them when they were done cleaning at the end of their shift and couldn't be contacted. This was in the past though as I think that the issuer now either has a master key or a spare key for the lock. New guards and regulations were implemented and now an entire department (30+ machines per shift) has to lock their machines out to clean them.
1st guess as to why the core needs to be strong and not the lock.
Bolt cutters or tools needed to break even a weak lock aren't readily available and in most cases the operators just have the basic tools they need to run their machines. Exp... calipers, tape measures, crescent wrench, hammer, cleaning tools. Heavy machinery operators would have the tools that could defeat the lock, but in most cases those operators are older and unlikely too.
2nd guess, Lawyers
At my workplace it is still 1 lock 1 key and the key stays with the employee that put it there. After an inspection and hopefully being able to contact said employee. If it was deemed safe to operate then we would have to cut the lock off. I empathize with your plight of always having to cut so many off, that does sound ridiculous. However, if someone repeatedly forgot to remove their lock then they would get fired.
I’m thinking most locks are physically attacked maybe casually picked.
Weird how those bigger locks don’t at least match the Loto type however.
Well the intimidation factor is quickly nullifies by them putting that big Master logo on there. Anyone who knows anything about locks then instantly know that it's a nead indestructible lock filles with creame cheese.
There's no paradox. The locks were built with specific purposes in mind. Lock picking is not a common skill. And it takes practice. In the vast majority of instances, it is easier to brute force an attack on the lock hardware or to whatever the lock is attached to instead. So those other locks are built to withstand brute force. The LOTO locks are not a physical security feature. They are not meant to bar access but to ensure people don't get accidental access wither at the wrong time or to the wrong piece of equipment. They are most likely to be used in situations where there are probably multiple similar if not identical locks in use, all with relatively similar keys. Thus to accomplish their function, they need to be designed to be able to work with only one key even as the keys and locks start to wear down with age and use. Hence the more robust core is what is needed to accomplish their task. And even the seemingly poorly made housing for the LOTO locks makes perfect sense. In the event that one of those locks needs to be removed without the key, they are almost always going to be installed on equipment that is far more important and valuable than the lock. If a tech drops his key for a LOTO lock, you don't want to risk damaging the machine that the lock was installed when you are trying to get that machine back up and running.
Everyone should watch LPL for recommendations before buying a lock. Especially gun locks if you have a child or children who regularly visit your home. Most are terrible
Check out kreosan trespassing in Chernobyl. They even dive into the flooded floors to try to get to reactor 4
Masterlock have a reputation for claiming to be very secure, and claiming to be unpickable - but in reality are trivial to pick, or even rake open
But this lockout lock as you say is designed to be cut open (and so is not hardened and plastic), but has a very good core for seemingly no reason at all, anyone wanting to pick it can just cut it off instead ?
Is there some kind of requirement that means Masterlock is forced to use a decent core?
I've used those before. A mechanics not going to sit there and pick a lock lol
Think you kind of answered the question when you said it's a requirement that no two keys is the same.
Those locks are bought in bulk, and very few cores can document that no two keys can open the same lock when bought in great numbers.
As a engineer in the industry you probably know they won't buy anything without a perfect track record.
And it could be really expensive providing the certification this industry needs making a new core over providing their "best" core that's already certified for the job.
Dude you need to do a reaction (or maybe even a 'lets play') to Nucleares. It's a pressurized water reactor simulator.
The reasons for different lock bodies and corse for LOTO locks vs security locks are the implmentation and use. Most people who commit theft are more incline to break locks rather than pick them. Mechanical failure in locks are easier to learn and require little skill or practice. But picking locks requires finnesse and practice to be proficient at picking a blind lock (a lock you've never picked before or know it's core internals). Most consumer security locks are beefy and robust for that reason, but use easier or smaller cores. However to open LOTO locks are easy to destroy but hard to pick to prevent covert removals (like lock picking). In an industrial setting you are more likely to notice someone destroying a lock than picking one. Why not have the best of both worlds for both kinds of locks? You have already answered. In an emergency, you need to be able to readily remove a LOTO lock with fair ease, but at that point, everyone knows what you're doing and why. If you made a robust and difficult core, for a consumer, that lock would be incredibly expensive, and thus no one would buy them anyways.
maybe they have some additional safety regulations on these locks and they need to make sure key/lock combinations are unique
Many times They will use a Device that Allows Multiple LOTO's, so Equipment or Switches can't be operated till Tech's have their All Locks Removed.
Understood.
You should try picking locks!
LPL opens MasterLocks these days by just glaring at them.
paradox - Because apparently no one needs locks that are both physically resistant and pick resistant? Or the vast majority of situations only require the lock to be good at one of those two things? A conundrum for sure. 😊
No. Paradox is that this lock is for safety not for security, so security pins have no real purpose and the same time Masterlock "high security" locks are easy to pick or super easy to bypass.
I found all one needs to do is show a Master lock a hammer and it’ll fall open. 🤷♂️
You need the KMART 3000 Model.
its easy, you need to know if opening was not done by owner of key. so if body is week you can open it by destroy body but then it will be know that was not authorized method.
if pick will be easy how you will know that was not authorized method??
The reason is the illusion of choice. If they made a lock with a good body and good core, everyone would buy it, and if they made a lock with a bad core and body nobody would buy it. They alternate core/body integrity to keep sales on all models up.
Even Master Lock’s best core is nowhere near close to the best core ever. It’s a common hobby to get challenge locks for picking that a fellow locksmith has designed to be unpickable.